View Full Version : Villages New Open House Policy
Wing-nut2
06-13-2021, 07:59 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
Dr Winston O Boogie jr
06-13-2021, 08:06 AM
It seems that The Villages still owns the house until the closing and can do with it what they want. A lot of contracts are broken by both sides. What would happen, for example, if there was some severe and unrepairable damage to the house such as it getting hit by lighting or a tornado destroying it? You wouldn't take the loss, it would be The Villages.
Until the money and title are transferred, The Villages owns the house.
The potential buyers may not like it and I understand your frustration but I doubt that there is anything that you can do about it.
retiredguy123
06-13-2021, 08:16 AM
I totally disagree. It's not your house until the closing. This applies to any house that is under contract, not just new houses. You have no control over the house until you own it.
John41
06-13-2021, 08:23 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
I wouldn’t be happy with strangers traipsing through my new house either. The Villages is more concerned with pleasing potential buyers than actual buyers like you.
My Daily Run
06-13-2021, 08:25 AM
I purchased my second home here 6 years ago and when I put down the deposit it was made clear to me that they could still show the home till I the moment of purchase
Bill14564
06-13-2021, 08:26 AM
I wouldn't like that either but there's probably not much you can do about it. You would think the seller would have more respect for their buyers but.....
Since you are purchasing a new property it should be in new condition when you take ownership. If the seller allows additional traffic through the house then it would make sense that they take the risk for any damage or additional wear that is caused. Pay extra attention on your pre-closing walkthrough to see that everything is perfect and document anything that is not.
npwalters
06-13-2021, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't like that either but there's probably not much you can do about it. You would think the seller would have more respect for their buyers but.....
Since you are purchasing a new property it should be in new condition when you take ownership. If the seller allows additional traffic through the house then it would make sense that they take the risk for any damage or additional wear that is caused. Pay extra attention on your pre-closing walkthrough to see that everything is perfect and document anything that is not.
Agree with the above. In this case I would be a VERY meticulous buyer at closing and make TV bring it to pristine condition at closing. No detail would be too small.
Garywt
06-13-2021, 08:49 AM
The good thing is they will come in and clean it all before your closing. Anything you are not happy with, they will comeback and take care of. Congrats on the new house.
photo1902
06-13-2021, 09:16 AM
Agree with the above. In this case I would be a VERY meticulous buyer at closing and make TV bring it to pristine condition at closing. No detail would be too small.
As one should do on any new home walkthrough.
TheLawnKing
06-13-2021, 10:25 AM
What about the subsequent "buyers" or the agent hosting the open house? Seems like a collosal waste of time for all involved parties. I'm curious what percentage of house contracts don't close. The over/under is 10% and I'm betting under.
Ben Franklin
06-13-2021, 10:44 AM
Maybe in the future you can have them write into your sales agreement, that no more open houses allowed. Developers are the only entities that allow open houses after they have a signed agreement. Look at your sales contract. Does it say anything about allowing them to continue to hold open houses?
MrFlorida
06-13-2021, 01:09 PM
It's worse in Michigan, where after you close, the people who sold it to you have up to 30 days to vacate it after the closing !!!! how's that for insane.
photo1902
06-13-2021, 01:16 PM
I wouldn’t be happy with strangers traipsing through my new house either. The Villages is more concerned with pleasing potential buyers than actual buyers like you.
It’s not your new house until closing. Plain and simple.
charmed59
06-13-2021, 01:38 PM
The developer is using new houses under contract as model homes. This wouldn’t make much sense in a pre-owned home, as the realtor most likely doesn’t have a house just like it in their back pocket for any potential buyer.
asianthree
06-13-2021, 02:05 PM
Friends looked at a home that they loved, but had gone under contract that morning. Their rep would look for the model elsewhere. This was the 5th home that sold literally as they walked through the door, site unseen, by someone. They returned back to Ohio.
So yesterday their rep called to tell them the sold home that they fell in love with 9 days ago, had just returned to the market he put it on hold, and they bought it.
The original people found a house and transferred to other home. So yep you don’t own it until you sign the closing paperwork. First available closing date is 6.5 weeks from now. Remember when you closed in 30 days and under.
mikreb
06-13-2021, 02:24 PM
It's the same as you selling your house and continuing to show the house after you accepted an offer. It's still your house until closing. We had two contingency offers on our previous home after we accepted the buyer's offer.
mrrmauu
06-14-2021, 04:52 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
I get your frustration but they probably already had the open house advertised. Since it was within 1 day of the signing I don’t blame them for still using your house. If they list open homes in the paper they should actually be there when people show up to see them.
banjobob
06-14-2021, 05:00 AM
Simple you don’t own it until the closing period , if you are upset about damage done before closing require final inspection of your purchase .
Pillowtalk
06-14-2021, 05:07 AM
When it’s too late to pull the ad, agents will use the Open House to get new buyers. It’s not your home until you have the title. If you look on their website today you will see that it is “pending”. Once it’s “pending” they no longer show it.
nick demis
06-14-2021, 05:08 AM
Seams look a great excuse to demand a deep cleaning before you move in regardless of the condition. Make sure you are present for the cleaning to see it is done to your standards.
Leadbone1
06-14-2021, 05:18 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
Well, having been a full-time realtor for 12 years before I came to the villages I can assure you that this does not go on other places as a rule. I think the villages owned is one of the only entities that could get away with something like this. When I had a listing and it was sold the night before an open house, I put a sign in the yard the next morning stating that the open house has been canceled. I also would try to get the ad canceled in the paper if possible. The people that were planning on seeing it just had to go home. Yes technically you don’t on the house until the closing and recording, but it’s about respect for the new owner. Obviously if you buy from a private individual this is not going to happen, even if it is listed with a Villages sales agent. If it is listed with a multiple-listing actual Realtor, this type of scenario is not going to take place. Unfortunately when you buy from the villages you put down a large deposit that is nonrefundable if you back out. This does not happen in other locales. You can back out at the closing table if you wish and in most cases get your earnest money back. Sorry for what you’re going through but I guess as they say “it is what it is “
Curtis525
06-14-2021, 05:29 AM
Welcome to The Villages Jim. Their greed will not be stopped. I bought a Premier home in 2015, and was told that would be the very last of the Premier Neighborhoods. No more would be built. Guess what? More were built. When I went to the Villages, they told me it was “true at the time I built my house, but that changed. Make no mistake…THEY are in charge!
You will have a walk through before closing and a 1 year warranty. Make sure everything is exactly as you want it. You can even threaten to delay closing until it’s the way it’s “supposed” to be!
It’s a great place to live once you no longer have to deal with “The Villages”
Best of Luck.
Thank you for your service!
Oneiric
06-14-2021, 05:29 AM
We signed a contract for our house in 2014. TV still conducted an open house two days later. Until we actually went to settlement, TV still owned the home. Sounds like nothing has changed.
Hpy2BHere
06-14-2021, 05:31 AM
It's worse in Michigan, where after you close, the people who sold it to you have up to 30 days to vacate it after the closing !!!! how's that for insane. wow I agree
Ptmckiou
06-14-2021, 05:46 AM
You don’t own the house. It’s up to The Villages to promote their homes and allow people to view floor plans. I see nothing wrong with that mindset. Once escrow closes it’s yours.
Btw, we have a new house also under contract and closes in July. The Villages are free to have an open house there and it wouldn’t bother me in the least. No harm done, and allows others to view the floor plan.
Cobullymom
06-14-2021, 05:54 AM
If you go to The Villages golf cart stores and decide you want to “hold a cart” for 24hrs you put a small deposit down, and they will hold it. They also put a sign on it, basically telling people it’s on hold and to stay off of it….Why is it ok for a 15-17,000 dollar purchase but not a 250,000+ purchase to respect and keep it the way it was when the buyer put it under contract or on hold….hmmm…
dewilson58
06-14-2021, 05:58 AM
It's not just The Villages.
You may not like it, but it's not your house and you can still back out.
At transfer you have the right a new condition house and the right to reject anything that is dirty, damaged, etc.
Ptmckiou
06-14-2021, 06:02 AM
If you go to The Villages golf cart stores and decide you want to “hold a cart” for 24hrs you put a small deposit down, and they will hold it. They also put a sign on it, basically telling people it’s on hold and to stay off of it….Why is it ok for a 15-17,000 dollar purchase but not a 250,000+ purchase to respect and keep it the way it was when the buyer put it under contract or on hold….hmmm…
I just recently went in to The Villages golf cart store and ordered a new cart. The sales man had me sit in a cart “on hold” to experience it’s details. So….they do use the carts on hold much in the same way, as homes under contract.
Altavia
06-14-2021, 06:16 AM
Well, having been a full-time realtor for 12 years before I came to the villages I can assure you that this does not go on other places as a rule. I think the villages owned is one of the only entities that could get away with something like this. When I had a listing and it was sold the night before an open house, I put a sign in the yard the next morning stating that the open house has been canceled. I also would try to get the ad canceled in the paper if possible. The people that were planning on seeing it just had to go home. Yes technically you don’t on the house until the closing and recording, but it’s about respect for the new owner. Obviously if you buy from a private individual this is not going to happen, even if it is listed with a Villages sales agent. If it is listed with a multiple-listing actual Realtor, this type of scenario is not going to take place. Unfortunately when you buy from the villages you put down a large deposit that is nonrefundable if you back out. This does not happen in other locales. You can back out at the closing table if you wish and in most cases get your earnest money back. Sorry for what you’re going through but I guess as they say “it is what it is “
This was an inventory new home.
Even on my resales, we kept showing in case incase the contract fell through.
Windguy
06-14-2021, 06:18 AM
What about the subsequent "buyers" or the agent hosting the open house? Seems like a collosal waste of time for all involved parties. I'm curious what percentage of house contracts don't close. The over/under is 10% and I'm betting under.
Just because a house is a given model doesn’t mean it’s exactly the same as the same model across the street. Builders tweak things here and there. Countertops and cabinets are different. One house might have a stretched garage. The lanai might be stretched. Maybe drywall corners are rounded. Lots of things can be different. Although they likely won’t get to buy the house that is open, they get ideas about what is important to them.
Girlcopper
06-14-2021, 06:27 AM
I wouldn’t be happy with strangers traipsing through my new house either. The Villages is more concerned with pleasing potential buyers than actual buyers like you.
Its not anyones house yet. Under contract. Under contract. Like being in limbo
J1ceasar
06-14-2021, 06:28 AM
You signed the contract without reading it? You certainly had the right not to sign the contract The Way it was written and if the villages did not change it you can always go elsewhere
ron32162
06-14-2021, 06:30 AM
Bait and switch ?
Singerlady
06-14-2021, 06:31 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
IMHO, the ‘Firm’ is getting bolder and bolder. Plenty of other homes to show, etc. They could’ve canceled the Open House at the site. I’ve seen that done. Examine house thoroughly at walk-through!
DiandJay
06-14-2021, 06:32 AM
This happened to us in upstate NY nearly 26 years ago. Perhaps it also happened here? We don’t know as we purchased the house while abroad.
When we arrived months later it was in excellent condition. Hope you enjoy your new home and feel welcomed by your new neighbors.
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 06:32 AM
Seams look a great excuse to demand a deep cleaning before you move in regardless of the condition. Make sure you are present for the cleaning to see it is done to your standards.
Do you demand that after the construction workers leave?
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 06:36 AM
Bait and switch ?
Huh? How so?
Byte1
06-14-2021, 06:44 AM
Put a "SOLD" sign in the window. Bet less folks would enter. If it is removed, install another one. I've seen many pre-owned homes that had "Pending" signs displayed. Guess they do not do that with NEW homes?
HJBeck
06-14-2021, 06:47 AM
Guess you don't own it till you close.
KYtoTV2021
06-14-2021, 06:48 AM
If you are confusing The Villages with anything close to a "democracy", you will be in for a rude awakening. This is a one-sided monarchy ruled by the Morse family. They make ALL the rules
tombpot
06-14-2021, 06:50 AM
Why did you get carpet?
pgettinger01
06-14-2021, 07:03 AM
A signed contract is intent to buy subject to conditions like inspection, mortgage... You do not own the house until the closing.
Marathon Man
06-14-2021, 07:13 AM
Question to many of you. Why do you continue to live in a place that makes you angry? I mean really, even things that have zero effect on you make you mad????
JoelJohnson
06-14-2021, 07:15 AM
I still worked on my old house after the person signed a sale contract. There were things that weren't safe and I had to my them safe, so I guess I could have said, "well you signed a contract, it's your problem now", but that would not be right.
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 07:17 AM
Put a "SOLD" sign in the window. Bet less folks would enter. If it is removed, install another one. I've seen many pre-owned homes that had "Pending" signs displayed. Guess they do not do that with NEW homes?
It's not your property to do that...
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 07:18 AM
Guess you don't own it till you close.
No "guessing"... You don't...
golfing eagles
06-14-2021, 07:19 AM
I still worked on my old house after the person signed a sale contract. There were things that weren't safe and I had to my them safe, so I guess I could have said, "well you signed a contract, it's your problem now", but that would not be right.
You went to contract on a property you considered "unsafe"? Did you make full disclosure???
But nice of you to fix the issues:coolsmiley:
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 07:19 AM
If you are confusing The Villages with anything close to a "democracy", you will be in for a rude awakening. This is a one-sided monarchy ruled by the Morse family. They make ALL the rules
No, this is a rule in all commerce. You don't own anything until you pay for it...
ie, after closing...
Jerseyborn
06-14-2021, 07:32 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
They used our house after we bought it but they did send a cleaning crew to make sure everything was spic-and-span before we closed.
Phantomf8
06-14-2021, 07:34 AM
Totally agree! The WAKTHRU will be your most important step!!!! [No pun intended]
akerwin1909
06-14-2021, 07:34 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
I agree with your being upset, however that is not your house until you close escrow. Anything could happen between the time you sign and closing. They are in the business to sell as many as possible. If they had already advertised, they should not redirect prospective buyers. You might ask them to limit the number of people because you can stipulate that the house be in the exact condition as when you signed. Bottom line- The Villages has the right.
kendi
06-14-2021, 07:39 AM
Climbing on counters and such could have happened prior to you signing the contract too. TV cleans everything up before you move in and you have the one year warranty.
Lindaws
06-14-2021, 07:44 AM
We had 60 days in Mi.
Rzepecki
06-14-2021, 07:48 AM
It's worse in Michigan, where after you close, the people who sold it to you have up to 30 days to vacate it after the closing !!!! how's that for insane.
Or longer. Since I’m from Michigan, this doesn’t strike me as unusual. The sellers pay rent to buyer after closing. However, the buyer doesn’t have to agree to let the sellers rent after closing; it’s all controlled by what’s put in the purchase agreement - a very important document!
obx2003
06-14-2021, 07:56 AM
Many states, like NC, have now gone to a 30 day Due Diligence period, where a buyer can void his contract for ANY reason. If that is the case now or if it becomes standard in FL, your argument would be even weaker.
retiredguy123
06-14-2021, 08:00 AM
Or longer. Since I’m from Michigan, this doesn’t strike me as unusual. The sellers pay rent to buyer after closing. However, the buyer doesn’t have to agree to let the sellers rent after closing; it’s all controlled by what’s put in the purchase agreement - a very important document!
So, are you saying that it has nothing to do with Michigan law? Obviously, a buyer can always rent the house to the seller after the closing in any state. I would never rent a house to the seller, if I had an option.
OhioBuckeye
06-14-2021, 08:07 AM
Yes I would be frustrated too. But I guess a contract doesn’t mean anything . I guess all a contract means is someone is interested in it. I suppose TV wouldn’t care at this point if you would back out of the deal because like they told us if you don’t want we’ll have it sold by the end of the week. So if actually don’t own it until the closing they own it & you don’t, so if you’re that unhappy with what they did back out of it & tell your agent we’ll look for another one. I wouldn’t like what they’re doing either. To me TV & agents aren’t very appreciative to home buyers. It’ll be alright you just learned a first lesson of many more that could happen in TV.
Two Bills
06-14-2021, 08:17 AM
why did you get carpet?
Myob!
grumpy@turton.us
06-14-2021, 08:38 AM
It seems that The Villages still owns the house until the closing and can do with it what they want. A lot of contracts are broken by both sides. What would happen, for example, if there was some severe and unrepairable damage to the house such as it getting hit by lighting or a tornado destroying it? You wouldn't take the loss, it would be The Villages.
Until the money and title are transferred, The Villages owns the house.
The potential buyers may not like it and I understand your frustration but I doubt that there is anything that you can do about it.
Not a new policy and like others have said still their house.
Pginbr
06-14-2021, 08:41 AM
Tos
KRMACK55
06-14-2021, 09:01 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
They are not agents they are sales clerks who work for the villages ! They don’t care as it’s legally not your house until you close and even then it’s not yours with the maintenance assessment forever !
They never gave me my deed and sent me a photocopy on a cash sale
KRMACK55
06-14-2021, 09:04 AM
The good thing is they will come in and clean it all before your closing. Anything you are not happy with, they will comeback and take care of. Congrats on the new house.
That’s not true my house was filthy when I moved in as well as falling faucets filthy tile no furnace filter etc
KRMACK55
06-14-2021, 09:09 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
The sales person does not work for you. They are independent contractors of the Villages and look out for the best interests of the villages NOT you.
westernrider75
06-14-2021, 09:26 AM
I know when we were looking back in 2019 we were shown homes that were sold but obviously not closed on yet. These were not open houses but I cannot say if they were used as open houses or not. The Villages owns it until closing so I can understand why that is the policy.
Velvet
06-14-2021, 09:43 AM
I guess this is too late now but… When you sign an agreement put what you want in writing on the sale agreement. They have a choice not to accept your terms, of course. Then you don’t have a deal. I personally always have alternative choices so if the agreement is rejected it’s no biggie for me.
cmlap
06-14-2021, 09:50 AM
I totally agree..I also bought home last week and noted an open..house...
Spalumbos62
06-14-2021, 09:55 AM
Take photos now...
bobdeb
06-14-2021, 10:07 AM
I'm going to go with the OP.
What's legal may not also be considerate and in good faith to the eventual owners. This would seem inconsiderate coming from billions of dollars in development.
UNLESS, it was clearly stated at the outset that the home would be used for viewing until the actual closing.
Then it's clearly buyer beware.
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 10:54 AM
It’ll be alright you just learned a first lesson of many more that could happen in TV.
You spelled everywhere wrong...
jeff6500
06-14-2021, 10:57 AM
The problem is, it’s The Villages Reality!
I’m retired LEO also. I came here in 2012, and a work friend connected me to a realtor. The first time we went out, I had given him a 12 houses I found on line. He began to show me homes. At the time, for sale signs were allowed on lawns. We passed home after home, with for sale signs, before getting to the house I was being shown. None were ever the type I asked for. By the end of the day without asking any questions, I figured out what was up. I came back a month later with a list of 25 homes and a regular realtor. After 3 days of looking, I settled on a few homes that interested me, and bought one, none were listed with “The Villages Realtor”.
riley2011
06-14-2021, 11:02 AM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
I’d be ****ed. Who knows what kind of damage could be done with lots of people traipsing through it. Just another example of The Villages doing what it wants no matter who objects
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 12:47 PM
I’d be ****ed. Who knows what kind of damage could be done with lots of people traipsing through it. Just another example of The Villages doing what it wants no matter who objects
No, just an example of what most realty companies do, until you actually close on the property...
These houses aren't "just left unlocked" so that anyone can "just traipse thru"...
There are agents present when either showing the home or when holding an open house...
There is no more damage done than when the construction workers "traipse thru" when finishing construction...
joedi
06-14-2021, 01:03 PM
The Villages do what ever they want, get use to it!!
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
Tripngirl
06-14-2021, 01:16 PM
Before your closing you will have a walk-thru with your agent. At that time check to make sure that all is good. I don't know if The Village contract allows for other tmes Here in MA. the purchase and sale allows up to 3 times (depending on contract for Buyers) to come to the home and measure for drapes, bring a contractor, or whatever, but it's in the P&S. The homes are even sometimes shown after an offer is accepted should a back up offer is needed incase home inspection or financing doesn't work out.
Pat2015
06-14-2021, 02:23 PM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
Been through FLETC several times! All will be ok with your new home as a team of cleaners will come through before you close and it should all be perfect. I’ve bought several new homes here and have not been disappointed. Welcome to TV 😊👍🏻
Pat2015
06-14-2021, 02:31 PM
That’s not true my house was filthy when I moved in as well as falling faucets filthy tile no furnace filter etc
I’ve bought several new homes in TV and have never experienced what you’re stating. You have a week to report any initial issues and you should have done that if you had the aforementioned issues as they would have promptly responded.
RealtorKaren
06-14-2021, 02:35 PM
What about the subsequent "buyers" or the agent hosting the open house? Seems like a collosal waste of time for all involved parties. I'm curious what percentage of house contracts don't close. The over/under is 10% and I'm betting under.
Real Estate agents hold open houses to meet new customers. They rarely sell the actual house the open house is being held at. It’s just a way to get leads.
Pat2015
06-14-2021, 02:50 PM
I'm going to go with the OP.
What's legal may not also be considerate and in good faith to the eventual owners. This would seem inconsiderate coming from billions of dollars in development.
UNLESS, it was clearly stated at the outset that the home would be used for viewing until the actual closing.
Then it's clearly buyer beware.
Understand where you are coming from but until the house is actually sold as in settled, The Villages can do what they want with the house. It will be professionally cleaned and look great for settlement.
Kingsport
06-14-2021, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE=Wing-nut2;1958872]On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. . . .]
I share your annoyance. However, everything I have learned is that when the house is turned over to you, it will be perfect or they will make it so. The Villages is a professional outfit. I am glad that you got a place that you liked.
yankygrl
06-14-2021, 02:58 PM
Real Estate agents hold open houses to meet new customers. They rarely sell the actual house the open house is being held at. It’s just a way to get leads.
I had a Villa on the market last year and the realtor (not from TV) had no less then 8 open houses and not 1 potential buyer. Put it on the market with another realtor, no open house and went under contract in 2 weeks.
HORNET
06-14-2021, 03:26 PM
On our first home here ( 11years ago ) , when we gave out deposit at sales center in Sumter, the house was taken off the computer listing, and on our second home 5years ago the same thing was done. First it may depend on who the Agent is and now the developer is playing his greedy games, because of shortages.
photo1902
06-14-2021, 03:56 PM
On our first home here ( 11years ago ) , when we gave out deposit at sales center in Sumter, the house was taken off the computer listing, and on our second home 5years ago the same thing was done. First it may depend on who the Agent is and now the developer is playing his greedy games, because of shortages.
They’re not taken off of the “computer listing”. They’re listed in the Pending category. They can still be shown to customer by sales agents.
Velvet
06-14-2021, 03:56 PM
If you are confusing The Villages with anything close to a "democracy", you will be in for a rude awakening. This is a one-sided monarchy ruled by the Morse family. They make ALL the rules
Yes, but it’s my money…. :)
debb3c
06-14-2021, 04:16 PM
Seems to me after knowing that, I would have it written in my contract that it would not be shown to anyone else
charmed59
06-14-2021, 04:17 PM
When we bought our first house in the Villages through the Villages Realty, it was scheduled for an open house a few days after we put our deposit down. They cancelled the open house and put a pending sign in the window with a note on the door that the open house was cancelled. We drove by just to see…. However, this was a preowned home.
photo1902
06-14-2021, 04:18 PM
Seems to me after knowing that, I would have it written in my contract that it would not be shown to anyone else
Good luck with that
richs631
06-14-2021, 06:53 PM
I’m with you 100%. He paid money on contract that is non refundable. Make his deposit refundable and we can have a different conversation.
JMintzer
06-14-2021, 09:01 PM
I’m with you 100%. He paid money on contract that is non refundable. Make his deposit refundable and we can have a different conversation.
The money is refundable pending an inspection or failure to qualify for a mortgage...
You will have time to back out of the contract in both those scenarios...
mikebama
09-16-2021, 05:40 PM
On Friday my wife and I signed a contract on a new house. On Saturday we went by the house and found The Villages was holding an Open House at our new house. I told the agent assigned to the open house that I had purchased the house the night before and I was surprised to see my house being used as an open house and did not appreciate the crowds of people tracking dirt etc. on the carpets. He told me it didn't matter what I wanted, the new policy was that any house under contract could be used for open houses up until closing. He stated The Villages feels that they are paying the electric bill and taking care of the grass, so it's theirs to use as they see fit. People saw the advertisement in the Daily Sun and expected to see the house advertised and were getting mad when told the house was no longer available. But even if they are allowed in, it's still sold. Attending previous open houses where a house becomes under contract has happened to me before, so I understand. But, the house under contract, was always closed and locked never open to view and another house was used for the open house.
I called my agent and explained what was going on, and asked why I was not informed of the new policy. My agent basically said the same thing that people wanted to see the house that was advertised and The Villages had an extreme housing shortage The advertising was sent to the paper in advance and the ad could not be changed. OK, so why not open another unsold house with the same floor plan? In fact, the house across the street from me is the same floor plan.
I understand that someone might want to see a Lantana for instance, but if the house is sold, why open it up to the public? It's not available for purchase anyway. There is a Model Center with all the floor plans available for people to see. With the housing shortage those models should always be open to the public not just a few.
Now some may say I'm wrong for even worrying about this issue, but I've seen open houses were people use bathrooms, climb on counters to check the tops of cabinets, bring their dogs and let them run free (we won't go there), holes punched in walls from door handles, trash thrown on floor, and all kinds of things tracked in. If you buy a house after it's been used as model, you know what you're getting.
So if you have recently purchased a house, you may want to check with your agent to see if your house is on the "rotation list" for open houses. Also check the Daily Sun to see if your house is advertised as being an Open House.
I'm repeating what the agent told me about The Villages new policy. This may or may not truly represent the policy of The Villages.
Open houses are panned or n advance. It’s usually not to sell a house but to gain contacts. The exact thing happened to us, but we n all fairness a co tract is not a final sale. What if you owned the home, and agents quit showing it after contact was signed? Only to find out the contract fell through. You don’t own the house until closing, and money changes hands.
I also don’t believe the agent said what you claimed. Just my $.02…
🥃🥃👍
Laker14
09-17-2021, 04:26 AM
It's worse in Michigan, where after you close, the people who sold it to you have up to 30 days to vacate it after the closing !!!! how's that for insane.
WHAT??? Yes, that's crazy.
Laker14
09-17-2021, 04:31 AM
OP, it is a weird situation, and I can understand your irritation. As mentioned before, your only good recourse is a thorough pre-closing inspection.
I've never bought a new home direct from TV, but I know several who have, and have read many accounts of the experience here on TOTV, and from what I've read, the developer is very good about addressing issues, UP TO A CERTAIN PRE-DETERMINED TIME, and then it's the new owner's problem. It's good that you found out this is going on, so you'll be extra motivated to inspect carefully.
I expect that while it's annoying, when you close it will be as if it never happened.
Good luck, and enjoy the new home!
My Daily Run
09-17-2021, 05:50 AM
I purchased my new home 6 years ago and was told by my realtor that they can continue to show it should someone want to see it for any reason...that was 6 years ago so I believe that it is not new...I was told by a seasoned realtor Carol Kramer
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.