Is the current "spiking" of Covis "cases" acceptable to anti vaxers?

[billethkid]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

[GrumpyOldMan]

First, flip flopping is very prejudicial. In my not so humble opinion, updating your position when new data is available is rational. Sadly in something like the pandemic of a never seen before virus can result in rapid changes in knowledge. Initial projections and advice is normally given based on previous similar viruses, with the caveats that they could be wrong. As time passes more information becomes available and projections and recommendations change. Then almost always the virus mutates and the experts have to start over. This can be very distressing to many people who are afraid and looking for answers.

The question, is the death rate acceptable is a hard question. And easier question is, is any preventable death acceptable, to which I would say, no. Even one preventable death is unacceptable. BUT. The problem is the second question, “at what cost.?” The cost can be economic, freedoms, potential future (long term) impacts, etc, etc, etc. Each of us have to come to a risk/reward assessment we are comfortable with.

Personally I think we are heading into a global economic collapse - depression or recession - that combined with continuing mutations will end up with governments around the world including the US, making isolation and vaccinations mandatory. The sad thing is there is every reason to believe we could have stopped this virus and it’s resulting variants if extreme measures had been taken earlier. But, that solution was unacceptable through out most of the world.

I hope I am wrong, for my children and grandchildren.

[Arctic Fox]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases". Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

I suspect it is merely that the media likes to report, and we like to hear about, the most recent events. Deaths from car accidents and smoking are old news.

[billethkid]

I suspect it is merely that the media likes to report, and we like to hear about, the most recent events. Deaths from car accidents and smoking are old news.

I agree.
Therefore(?) the deaths, maiming, disabling levels are acceptable-tolerable.

[Bogie Shooter]

Not wearing a seat belt and in an accident, the result I may never be able to walk again...no vaccination could result in death....neither is acceptable to me.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Not wearing a seat belt and in an accident, the result I may never be able to walk again...no vaccination could result in death....neither is acceptable to me.

The most common injury from not wearing a seat belt is traumatic brain injury, it can lead to not being able to walk, or talk, or remember things, or feed yourself. I would take death over that. But each to their own poison.

As I said, to me any preventable death is too many.

[billethkid]

Just in case clarification post is to compare the virus to other causes of death/disabilities that are around us every day....with significant magnitude.....is it the more current harm is more news worthy (or more agenda worthy??!!).

[camaguey48]

“The sad thing is there is every reason to believe we could have stopped this virus and it’s resulting variants if extreme measures had been taken earlier. But, that solution was unacceptable through out most of the world.”

And, it appears also in the United States.....

“Anthony Fauci said on Sunday that he was horrified to hear the crowd at a conservative gathering this weekend cheering anti-vaccination comments.

"It's horrifying. I mean, they are cheering about someone saying that it's a good thing for people not to try and save their lives," Fauci told host Jake Tapper on CNN's "State of the Union," referring to the audience's reaction to remarks at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas.

Fauci also said that it was “almost frightening” for people to say that they don’t want health officials to save their lives. ”

Fauci: 'Horrifying' to hear CPAC crowd cheering anti-vaccination remarks | TheHill (https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/562453-fauci-horrifying-to-hear-cpac-crowd-cheering-missed-vaccine-goal)
It's horrifying to see this weasel on television.

[golfing eagles]

“The sad thing is there is every reason to believe we could have stopped this virus and it’s resulting variants if extreme measures had been taken earlier. But, that solution was unacceptable through out most of the world.”

And, it appears also in the United States.....

“Anthony Fauci said on Sunday that he was horrified to hear the crowd at a conservative gathering this weekend cheering anti-vaccination comments.

"It's horrifying. I mean, they are cheering about someone saying that it's a good thing for people not to try and save their lives," Fauci told host Jake Tapper on CNN's "State of the Union," referring to the audience's reaction to remarks at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas.

Fauci also said that it was “almost frightening” for people to say that they don’t want health officials to save their lives. ”

Fauci: 'Horrifying' to hear CPAC crowd cheering anti-vaccination remarks | TheHill (https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/562453-fauci-horrifying-to-hear-cpac-crowd-cheering-missed-vaccine-goal)

Trying to get yet another thread closed due to your political babbling????

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

The difference is that "not wearing seatbelts" isn't contagious. You not wearing a seatbelt is not going to hurt me, if you are in an accident. Indoor smoking is mostly banned in most parts of the country outside the privacy of your own home or vehicle. It's also banned in many outdoor public venues, parks and recreational areas nationwide. But I won't become a smoker just because you are a smoker. Smoking isn't contagious.

COVID is contagious, and you don't have to be "doing" anything to transmit it. Just get physically close enough to someone and breathe in their general direction, and if it's "their turn" to catch it, you will transmit it to them.

[Bucco]

Trying to get yet another thread closed due to your political babbling????

EXPLAIN POLITICAL.

post is on subject.

Post is adding to the discussion, UNLESS we are expected to bury facts that make certain uncomfortable, which seems to be the case every time this attack is made.

If TOTV is to be a “megaphone” for only things you like, then let’s insure we change the rules and its name.

If you do not want to hear FACTS then do not get involved in threads.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Trying to get yet another thread closed due to your political babbling????

Looks like both sides are here and hurling insults. Yup, thread is doomed.

[GrumpyOldMan]

EXPLAIN POLITICAL.

post is on subject.

Post is adding to the discussion, UNLESS we are expected to bury facts that make certain uncomfortable, which seems to be the case every time this attack is made.

If TOTV is to be a “megaphone” for only things you like, then let’s insure we change the rules and its name.

If you do not want to hear FACTS then do not get involved in threads.

While I agree with your post, the last line is inflammatory. I expect both sides believe that they have the facts. If we are to get past this point in history, both sides need to try.

[golfing eagles]

EXPLAIN POLITICAL.

post is on subject.

Post is adding to the discussion, UNLESS we are expected to bury facts that make certain uncomfortable, which seems to be the case every time this attack is made.

If TOTV is to be a “megaphone” for only things you like, then let’s insure we change the rules and its name.

If you do not want to hear FACTS then do not get involved in threads.

Explain it---like you don't already know:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

OK, when you post phrases related to "conservative gatherings" and "responses at CPAC" you have turned a thread about deaths from COVID instantly political. When you make veiled references to "doing more earlier" you make it political, just not as obvious as when you name the former POTUS. I can make many more "factual" posts about how the other side is ruining our country, but they would be political as well

Any further questions?????:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[DALEPQ]

We constantly hear the media refer to "Cases", but never hear how the "Cases" are defined. I believe that when "Cases" are mentioned it means a positive test, but no
mention as to what the severity factor is, just that we should be terrified of "Cases".
I know quite a few folks that are listed as "Cases" who have had Covid, and totally
recovered with having had relatively minor symptoms. Yes, I also know of others that have been really sick from Covid.
My point is that simply listing "Cases" just isn't the complete story, but keeping everyone
terrified seems to be the ongoing media narrative.

[golfing eagles]

We constantly hear the media refer to "Cases", but never hear how the "Cases" are defined. I believe that when "Cases" are mentioned it means a positive test, but no
mention as to what the severity factor is, just that we should be terrified of "Cases".
I know quite a few folks that are listed as "Cases" who have had Covid, and totally
recovered with having had relatively minor symptoms. Yes, I also know of others that have been really sick from Covid.
My point is that simply listing "Cases" just isn't the complete story, but keeping everyone
terrified seems to be the ongoing media narrative.

Correct. That's why hospitalizations, and deaths in the absence of significant comorbidities is a much better metric to follow.

[Bucco]

While I agree with your post, the last line is inflammatory. I expect both sides believe that they have the facts. If we are to get past this point in history, both sides need to try.

First do you know how many threats I get on here claiming I am being political. It is insane.

I never post anything remotely political without a back up quoted article or two or a link to a video. Although those who attack me each day very seldom supply any.
backup

I posted this because as we watch a very organized movement against vaccination ( I did not post the Representive using the anti drug chant “just say no” in referring to the vaccine.

The OP made good points, but I differ in blaming the world should anything happen. We HAD the vaccine....easily available. The rest of the world is not in that position.

How can there be a forum where only certain “facts” are allowed.

I am not the political one.....this was made political by our own leaders. Since day one.

Sorry if I get brusque, but getting tired of self appointed critics, WITHOUT ANY FACTS TO DISPUTE, calling every post political. We are discussing Covid vaccinations, and lack of participation, and there is no doubt of the OPEN resistance along political lines.

[Bucco]

Explain it---like you don't already know:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

OK, when you post phrases related to "conservative gatherings" and "responses at CPAC" you have turned a thread about deaths from COVID instantly political. When you make veiled references to "doing more earlier" you make it political, just not as obvious as when you name the former POTUS. I can make many more "factual" posts about how the other side is ruining our country, but they would be political as well

Any further questions?????:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

First, you have every right to begin a thread on anything.

If you find something I said to be untrue, challenge and make a case.

I am not responsible for who makes it political, yet you try to lay it at my feet.

Sometimes, there are truths that fit that are uncomfortable, and adults know it. If many posts on here go unchallenged in certain subjects, it simply is a exercise in passing on misinformation and hate.

Perhaps that is what you want, but in reading your posts, I think you are smarter than that. You never see me post in areas that I know nothing about. I very seldom question you or others on medical areas, but when you, or anyone begins to either tell flagrant lies, enable those who do, or openly ignore facts to suit your narrative,,,,well

Oh, and my post was a response to another, and was exactly on the same subject, except I am not placing total blame on non Americans....it just isn’t so.

We had or have control. It is our call.

This is different than medical reasons for no shot....it is pure politics, not by me.

[golfing eagles]

First, you have every right to begin a thread on anything.

If you find something I said to be untrue, challenge and make a case.

I am not responsible for who makes it political, yet you try to lay it at my feet.

Sometimes, there are truths that fit that are uncomfortable, and adults know it. If many posts on here go unchallenged in certain subjects, it simply is a exercise in passing on misinformation and hate.

Perhaps that is what you want, but in reading your posts, I think you are smarter than that. You never see me post in areas that I know nothing about. I very seldom question you or others on medical areas, but when you, or anyone begins to either tell flagrant lies, enable those who do, or openly ignore facts to suit your narrative,,,,well

Oh, and my post was a response to another, and was exactly on the same subject, except I am not placing total blame on non Americans....it just isn’t so.

We had or have control. It is our call.

This is different than medical reasons for no shot....it is pure politics, not by me.

I am not saying whether or not your "facts" are true, nor am saying I agree or disagree with your statements. I am merely pointing out that many threads are closed by the moderators due to the introduction of politics, and, correct me if you think I am wrong since I didn't count, you are the leading contender in that field. You tend to disguise your political opinion as "facts", such as this could have been handled better and sooner if not for XXXX. That is an opinion, not a fact, and I don't know if that is true any more than you do. Like they said in "The Godfather", this is business, not personal:1rotfl:

[graciegirl]

Looks like both sides are here and hurling insults. Yup, thread is doomed.

I am never sure what side I am on, but I do agree with this statement.

Some just have a bubbling need to vent anger. Many of us are very tired of it. Same old, same old, but sometimes the poster switches sides....and names.

[Two Bills]

C'mon Son!
The post was political click bait from the off.

[Swoop]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

Please provide your definition of “spiking” because it can’t possibly coincide with the generally accepted definition. I just looked at the latest Covid new case graph, updated yesterday, and the word spike certainly wouldn’t be an accurate description.

[Altavia]

Covid-19 vaccines have saved nearly 280,000 lives in the US so far.

The unvacinated are varient factories infecting children and those who can not be vaccinated.

There are non mRNA vaccines.

[JMintzer]

The there's this...

Covid deaths in U.S. hit lowest level in 10 months (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-deaths-u-s-hit-lowest-level-10-months-n1267135)

[Bucco]

I am never sure what side I am on, but I do agree with this statement.

Some just have a bubbling need to vent anger. Many of us are very tired of it. Same old, same old, but sometimes the poster switches sides....and names.

Just want to address the implications and accusations.

My user name is Bucco. It is my only user name....no others. I did have another...Rags123, which was suggested to me way back by talkhost. Not used since my wife used it to PM someone, and was attacked very “loudly” about guess what...politics.
——————————————-

I am, as of 2016 an independent, after over 50 years as a working member of GOP. My views have always been issue driven, not by party, thus you may think about “switching sides”, but trust me I never have looked back except in sadness. I will speak my true feelings should I choose to post. I will be honest, and as so, can also accept honesty.
————————-

Not sure why disagreeing about lying or spreading false conspiracies, or anything anti American is, to you, venting anger. I have served my country in various ways for 65 of my 82 years. Yes, I am sensitive to the violence on Jan 6, because I worked there and roamed those halls. That is a sacred building, at least to me.
————————————-

I simply respond to a post, and as normal am confronted not with a post disagreeing with my post, but aimed at me. The issue is gone, and the hatred surfaces. If you have another opinion please share. Just discuss the issue and stop with the games played. Not impressed or intimidated.
————————-

But do not speak to me about “bubbling” anger.

I will always speak out against lies, commission or omission. I start out assuming everyone is like that, then I am confronted with this “anger”. This same charge has been made, always on the same thing.....I allowed a fact you just were uncomfortable with.
—————-
This was not “political click bat”. BTK started a good thread about the lack of vaccinations. He alluded to non Americans being the reason. I tool exception to that, using just a few recent statements to make my point.

NOBODY has posted disagreement with what I said. Just, as said here “same led same old” while totally ignoring the thread subject. And calling me out personally for making this political. I was at no rallies.....I did not exhort people to not get a vaccine.....I did not mock anyone, as this is important.

So, please....at least be honest with your posts. Stop making things up, and if you wish to converse, do so ON WHATEVER THE SUBJECT OF THE POST YOU RESPOND TO.

There are some who enjoy, NOT conversation, but concentrated attacks.

I am not the one to be angry at.....try facing truth about who leads the attacks on truth. Try discussing the content, and stop coming after the person who is sharing the truth, although it may be uncomfortable for you to hear.

Truth, I speak of. If my opinion, I say that. To say what I posted here today is not true.....well, a problem then exists that only you can resolve,

[JMintzer]

Just want to address the implications and accusations.

My user name is Bucco. It is my only user name....no others. I did have another...Rags123, which was suggested to me way back by talkhost. Not used since my wife used it to PM someone, and was attacked very “loudly” about guess what...politics.

I am, as of 2016 an independent, after over 50 years as a working member of GOP. My views have always been issue driven, not by party, thus you may think about “switching sides”, but trust me I never have looked back except in sadness.

Not sure why disagreeing about lying or spreading false conspiracies, or anything anti American is, to you, venting anger.

I simply respond to a post, and as normal am confronted not with a post disagreeing with my post, but aimed at me. The issue is gone, and the hatred surfaces. If you have another opinion please share.

But do not speak to me about “bubbling” anger.

I will always speak out against lies, commission or omission. I start out assuming everyone is like that, then I am confronted with this “anger”

This was not “political click bat”. BTK started a good thread about the lack of vaccinations. He alluded to non Americans being the reason. I tool exception to that, using just a few recent statements to make my point.

NOBODY has posted disagreement with what I said. Just, as said here “same led same old” while totally ignoring the thread subject. And calling me out personally for making this political. I was at no rallies.....I did not exhort people to not get a vaccine.....I did not mock anyone, as this is important.

So, please....at least be honest with your posts. Stop making things up, and if you wish to converse, do so ON WHATEVER THE SUBJECT OF THE POST YOU RESPOND TO.

There are some who enjoy, NOT conversation, but concentrated attacks.

I am not the one to be angry at.....try facing truth about who leads the attacks on truth. Try discussing the content, and stop coming after the person who is sharing the truth, although it may be uncomfortable for you to hear.

Truth, I speak of. If my opinion, I say that. To say what I posted here today is not true.....well, a problem then exists that only you can resolve,

It's actually quite easy to discuss these topics without injecting politics into the argument...

Well, it is for most people...

[Altavia]

The there's this...

Covid deaths in U.S. hit lowest level in 10 months (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-deaths-u-s-hit-lowest-level-10-months-n1267135)

You know better than I deaths lag hospitalizations by several months.

[Aces4]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

Since there is a new warning regarding a higher incidence of Guillain Barre cases in recipients of Johnson & Johnson vaccine, they’re probably feeling good about their decision.

Most of the people who are declining vaccination worked throughout the pandemic, some people have reactions, many have already had covid, including an eighty five year old man who recovered completely with no issues even though he is diabetic and has had a stroke previously. He’s back to work on the farm which his son operates.

Golfing Eagles has it right, co-morbidity factors need to be presented with the death rate numbers. Out of all the people I know who contracted covid, two died. One was an eighty year old woman with severe heart disease and the other was terminal. I’ve been vaccinated but we need to get off the backs of those who elect not to receive the shots. Influenza can be very deadly too for the compromised population and we don’t insist everyone get that shot.

[JMintzer]

You know better than I deaths lag hospitalizations by several months.

Several "months"? No, days or a few weeks? Sure, I'll give you that...

Plus, thus article is from May. They state 600 deaths/day...

Recent numbers are in the low 200's...

[GrumpyOldMan]

We constantly hear the media refer to "Cases", but never hear how the "Cases" are defined. I believe that when "Cases" are mentioned it means a positive test, but no
mention as to what the severity factor is, just that we should be terrified of "Cases".
I know quite a few folks that are listed as "Cases" who have had Covid, and totally
recovered with having had relatively minor symptoms. Yes, I also know of others that have been really sick from Covid.
My point is that simply listing "Cases" just isn't the complete story, but keeping everyone
terrified seems to be the ongoing media narrative.

Funny, I don't recall ANYONE ever saying you should be terrified. Could you provide a link?

Maybe you mean rightfully concerned? Maybe they said we should take precautions? Maybe they mentioned if we don't take precautions a half-million people could die?

But terrified, I am not terrified, and I don't recall ever hearing that term from anyone - other than people that attempt to p[lay down the pandemmic.

[GrumpyOldMan]

First do you know how many threats I get on here claiming I am being political. It is insane.

I never post anything remotely political without a back up quoted article or two or a link to a video. Although those who attack me each day very seldom supply any.
backup

I posted this because as we watch a very organized movement against vaccination ( I did not post the Representive using the anti drug chant “just say no” in referring to the vaccine.

The OP made good points, but I differ in blaming the world should anything happen. We HAD the vaccine....easily available. The rest of the world is not in that position.

How can there be a forum where only certain “facts” are allowed.

I am not the political one.....this was made political by our own leaders. Since day one.

Sorry if I get brusque, but getting tired of self appointed critics, WITHOUT ANY FACTS TO DISPUTE, calling every post political. We are discussing Covid vaccinations, and lack of participation, and there is no doubt of the OPEN resistance along political lines.

I completely understand your post and agree with it. I also get numerous complaints and insults, normally from people that make the thread political, because by god they have the right to say anything they want to.

But, I still think we need to be the ones to try to tone down the discussion. "They" obviously are only interested in confrontational discusssions.

[JMintzer]

I completely understand your post and agree with it. I also get numerous complaints and insults, normally from people that make the thread political, because by god they have the right to say anything they want to.

But, I still think we need to be the ones to try to tone down the discussion. "They" obviously are only interested in confrontational discusssions.

"They"...:1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

[GrumpyOldMan]

I am never sure what side I am on, but I do agree with this statement.

Some just have a bubbling need to vent anger. Many of us are very tired of it. Same old, same old, but sometimes the poster switches sides....and names.

I find myself straddling the fence - sadly - and often agree with conservative comments about the economy and other topics, and often agreeing with liberals about social issues.

I would very much like to be able to carry on adult conversations with people here that disagree with me (there have been a couple, and it was VERy refreshing).

Yup, same old same old. Very few seem to be interested in discussion, most just want to toss out the current set of dog whistles.

I am SO thankful you are on here, always a voice a reason.

[JMintzer]

Since there is a new warning regarding a higher incidence of Guillain Barre cases in recipients of Johnson & Johnson vaccine, they’re probably feeling good about their decision.

The actual warning: "While the FDA said it had not established the vaccine could cause the syndrome, it noted an increase in reports of the sometimes paralyzing condition."

[GrumpyOldMan]

"They"...:1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

My "They" was everyone but he and me, not a side. Both sides are almost completely confrontational and both sides need to be called out. I agree with them on most issues it seems, but I called them out.

So, I am sorry, I was not clear, in that post, my "They" meant everyone that is constantly confrontational.

[GrumpyOldMan]

The actual warning: "While the FDA said it had not established the vaccine could cause the syndrome, it noted an increase in reports of the sometimes paralyzing condition."

Yup, exactly. My understanding (I spend 2 hours round trip to the VA listening to news reports today - yuck) is there have been around 100 cases out of x million doses, and of those 100 cases they do not KNOW how many if any were caused by the vaccine - they belive some were, but so far, there are just too few to be certain.

[Aces4]

Please provide your definition of “spiking” because it can’t possibly coincide with the generally accepted definition. I just looked at the latest Covid new case graph, updated yesterday, and the word spike certainly wouldn’t be an accurate description.

Depends which state you’re looking at. Missouri was having a big spike last week, I believe.

[Aces4]

The actual warning: "While the FDA said it had not established the vaccine could cause the syndrome, it noted an increase in reports of the sometimes paralyzing condition."

Yes, because two and two don’t always make four.:ohdear: ...increase in reports of those receiving Johnson and Johnson vaccine...

[Aces4]

Funny, I don't recall ANYONE ever saying you should be terrified. Could you provide a link?

Maybe you mean rightfully concerned? Maybe they said we should take precautions? Maybe they mentioned if we don't take precautions a half-million people could die?

But terrified, I am not terrified, and I don't recall ever hearing that term from anyone - other than people that attempt to p[lay down the pandemmic.

You’re concerned? Weren’t you vaccinated? Why worry if it’s sure-fire protection?

[GrumpyOldMan]

You’re concerned? Weren’t you vaccinated? Why worry if it’s sure-fire protection?

Around and around...

I am concerned because if we don't reach herd immunity things can get worse - as if they are not bad enough.

It amazes me how few people seem to care about their fellow Americans.

[Aces4]

Around and around...

I am concerned because if we don't reach herd immunity things can get worse - as if they are not bad enough.

It amazes me how few people seem to care about their fellow Americans.

What will get worse? If we had truthful reporting of the deaths, it would help. How many in the “unvaccinated” numbers have already had covid and don’t want the vaccination. I wouldn’t if it were me. The elderly and compromised have been vaccinated for the most part and you realize covid will never be eradicated in the world. Live your life or worry about the next pandemic, they say it will happen.:pray:

[Becca9800]

I completely understand your post and agree with it. I also get numerous complaints and insults, normally from people that make the thread political, because by god they have the right to say anything they want to.

But, I still think we need to be the ones to try to tone down the discussion. "They" obviously are only interested in confrontational discusssions.

Shirley, you jest.

[thelegges]

Those who choose not to be vaccinated, most likely will not change their minds. My family is working in an area only 31% have been vaccinated.

They worry far less about working with the unvaccinated, come in contact with maybe 100 per day, herd doesn’t worry them, why do many in TV who probably have less than 1% contact of unvaccinated worrying a daily basis?
Can’t worry about things you can not change.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Shirley, you jest.

I apologize, I did believe you were attempting to bait me.

The HRC claim was a QNON conspiracy associated with another theory of a sex ring working out of a pizza shop. That theory was referred to by various Congressional members.

Here is a fact check of the space lasers story:

Mixture Archives | Snopes.com (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rating/mixture/)

[Swoop]

Depends which state you’re looking at. Missouri was having a big spike last week, I believe.

Also not true. Take 5 minutes and look at the new Covid case chart, updated daily by The NY Times. You can look at the US in general, or by state, or by county. But as a state, Missouri did not “spike” last week…

[Aces4]

Also not true. Take 5 minutes and look at the new Covid case chart, updated daily by The NY Times. You can look at the US in general, or by state, or by county. But as a state, Missouri did not “spike” last week…

Yeah, that’s another problem...who do you believe?

Kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252728088.html


If you paste that link in your search/url bar you can read the article.

[Swoop]

Yeah, that’s another problem...who do you believe?

Kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252728088.html


If you paste that link in your search/url bar you can read the article.

I just read the article. Not once was the word spike used. They say that they have noticed an increase in positive tests. No indication of the percentage increase. Yesterday they had 690 new cases in the entire state. When dealing in small numbers a small aberration can indicate an increase. But nothing indicates a “spike”…

[GrumpyOldMan]

I just read the article. Not once was the word spike used. They say that they have noticed an increase in positive tests. No indication of the percentage increase. Yesterday they had 690 new cases in the entire state. When dealing in small numbers a small aberration can indicate an increase. But nothing indicates a “spike”…

I agree, the word "spike" appears to be a clickbait usage.

As near as I can tell reading a few articles, the intent is not to say there has been a LARGE number of cases, but that there has been a significant change in which virus is causing the current cases. Meaning, the Delta (or Delta+) variant is responsible for more than half of the recent cases, where previously it was responsible for only one or two cases.

So, while the use of the word "spike" is sensationalistic, the idea is that the Delta virus is rising. If it is not prevented by the vaccine, then we could see an exponential growth of it, which is what happened with the original variant before the measures were taken to slow it down.

That makes reporting difficult. If they say nothing and in 3 or 4 months we are seeing thousands of deaths per day again, then they screwed up, and if in a few months we don't see thousands of deaths, but it fizzles, then they are guilty of spreading panic.

A classic damned if you do and dammed if you don't.

The experts are taking a more cautious approach saying it's too soon to make predictions, but it is certainly something to be monitored.

[Altavia]

The nature of the beast (for areas with low vaccination rates) is to grow expotentially, double every few weeks.

Access Denied (https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252728088.html)

[Aces4]

I just read the article. Not once was the word spike used. They say that they have noticed an increase in positive tests. No indication of the percentage increase. Yesterday they had 690 new cases in the entire state. When dealing in small numbers a small aberration can indicate an increase. But nothing indicates a “spike”…

You’re funny, semantics may keep you from seeing the light, lol.

If it makes you more comfortable, the same paper has printed at 3:41 pm today: “Missouri added to Chicago travel advisory list amid Springfield COVID-19 spike”. :ohdear:

[Altavia]

Not spiking...

[Aces4]

Not spiking...

Yeah, I can see their numbers have shot up and they say they’re spiking but we shouldn’t base our interpretation on their evidence, right?

[Boomer]

I cannot comprehend the fact that so many are unable to grasp the concept of risk vs. benefit.

News out of a hospital in Springfield, MO, said that 91% of ICU patients now are on ventilators and many of them are In their 20s, 30s, and 40s. They said that these stats are especially concerning because last year there were 40 to 50 % of ICU patients on vents there. The average age of death from Covid in MO recently reported as being in the 50s age group.

The longtime rationalization of blaming comorbidities for Covid deaths or difficult cases or serious after-effects does not seem to hold up with so many young cases.

It was said that in a few weeks, we could see more deaths in the hotspots because it takes a while.

I find these younger ages to be especially concerning. The virus is getting past their presumed invincibility. The virus needs a host and they are rolling out the welcome wagon.

Of course, I know there are some who have medical conditions that make the vaccine possibly dangerous for them. But for so many of these younger people, it looks to me like they are caught up in some kind of tribal group-think — and some are even succumbing to the planted lies about becoming magnetized or being tracked if they get the vaccine.

Generally, older people seem to be able to (mostly) separate their vaccinations from their political loyalties. I do not think that is the case though with the generations behind us. Many cannot see that they are being manipulated. They are so proud, so caught up in their defiance — until they’re not — when ignorance is no longer bliss.

What a mess we are in.

Boomer

Uh, oh, I keep getting caught up in these threads. I need to stop looking. Geez. I think it comes from being so adept at avoiding controversial topics in my social life that I get on here and can’t shut up.

[Aces4]

I cannot comprehend the fact that so many are unable to grasp the concept of risk vs. benefit.

News out of a hospital in Springfield, MO, said that 91% of ICU patients now are on ventilators and many of them are In their 20s, 30s, and 40s. They said that these stats are especially concerning because last year there were 40 to 50 % of ICU patients on vents there. The average age of death from Covid in MO recently was been reported as being in the 50s age group.

The longtime rationalization of blaming comorbidities for Covid deaths or difficult cases or serious after-effects does not seem to hold up with so many young cases.

It was said that in a few weeks, we could see more deaths in the hotspots because it takes a while.

I find these younger ages to be especially concerning. The virus is getting past their presumed invincibility. The virus needs a host and they are rolling out the welcome wagon.

Of course, I know there are some who have medical conditions that make the vaccine possibly dangerous for them. But for so many of these younger people, it looks to me like they are caught up in some kind of tribal group-think — and some are even succumbing to the planted lies about becoming magnetized or being tracked if they get the vaccine.

Generally, older people seem to be able to (mostly) separate their vaccinations from their political loyalties. I do not think that is the case though with the generations behind us. Many cannot see that they are being manipulated. They are so proud, so caught up in their defiance — until they’re not — when ignorance is no longer bliss.

What a mess we are in.

Boomer

"Mess we are in"? This is the first time I've seen it indicated that politics is the reason people are refusing the vaccine. Which party would they be following since one party pushed the development and implementation of the the vaccinations and the other party continues to push for the administration of vaccines? Both political parties are involved with the vaccine.

But for some there is a general caution as to the danger of taking an unvetted medication, there are those who have already had covid and refuse to be vaccinated, there are those who cannot be vaccinated and then there are those who worked through the pandemic, had coworkers get covid and they didn't.

There was a news piece tonight that stated it may be necessary to revaccinate people because they don't know if the first series of shots will remain effective very long. Hang on, the ride will be interesting.

[GrumpyOldMan]

The nature of the beast (for areas with low vaccination rates) is to grow expotentially, double every few weeks.

Access Denied (https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252728088.html)

Yup, exponential growth is like, from 1 to 256 in 8 days, from 1 to 65,000 in 16 days. For the first week or two it looks harmless. Then bang.

[stanley]

The sky is falling............again

[Boomer]

"Mess we are in"? This is the first time I've seen it indicated that politics is the reason people are refusing the vaccine. Which party would they be following since one party pushed the development and implementation of the the vaccinations and the other party continues to push for the administration of vaccines? Both political parties are involved with the vaccine.

But for some there is a general caution as to the danger of taking an unvetted medication, there are those who have already had covid and refuse to be vaccinated, there are those who cannot be vaccinated and then there are those who worked through the pandemic, had coworkers get covid and they didn't.

There was a news piece tonight that stated it may be necessary to revaccinate people because they don't know if the first series of shots will remain effective very long. Hang on, the ride will be interesting.


I understand that all the reasons are not the same. But I also know there is a big piece of it that is group-think, no individual thinking needed.

I know 2 people who have medical conditions that make risk outweigh benefit. But today, I spent some time with another person who battled Covid in January. It has left her with after-effects.

When we went to get our vaccines in February and March, I carried an epi-pen in my purse because Mr. B has had some allergic reactions — penicillin, sulfa drugs, and once a bee sting — not the same thing — I knew that — but I chose to minimize risk. It was all so new and I was worried. But we chose potential benefit over risk. (He was fine.)

I wrote a post in a recent thread about a big mouth talk radio personality in my hometown who changed his anti-vaxxing rants and started telling his loyalists to get the vaccine after seeing Covid for real, including losing a good friend to the virus. He has been back-pedaling like crazy lately. But whipping easy marks into a frenzy pays him handsomely so he jumped right in — at first.

(Anyway, Aces4, when you quoted me above, I had not edited for typos and had not added the thing at the bottom about how I know I need to stop engaging in these types of threads. Too predictable.)

The vaccine issue is multi-faceted. I addressed one facet in the post you quoted. But — it’s a facet — for sure.

Boomer

PS: In that thread about remembered posters, you said you miss Fumar and Muncle. Hey, that’s something we can definitely agree on. Smart guys — and each with a terrific sense of humor and a way with words. You must have been lurking for a while before you joined because Muncle left us in 2009, I think. He was my worthy opponent in debate — and we had a lot of fun with silly threads.

[Aces4]

I understand that all the reasons are not the same. But I also know there is a big piece of it that is group-think, no individual thinking needed.

I know 2 people who have medical conditions that make risk outweigh benefit. But today, I spent some time with another person who battled Covid in January. It has left her with after-effects.

When we went to get our vaccines in February and March, I carried an epi-pen in my purse because Mr. B has had some allergic reactions — penicillin, sulfa drugs, and once a bee sting — not the same thing — I knew that — but I chose to minimize risk. It was all so new and I was worried. But we chose potential benefit over risk. (He was fine.)

I wrote a post in a recent thread about a big mouth talk radio personality in my hometown who changed his anti-vaxxing rants and started telling his loyalists to get the vaccine after seeing Covid for real, including losing a good friend to the virus. He has been back-pedaling like crazy lately. But whipping easy marks into a frenzy pays him handsomely so he jumped right in — at first.

(Anyway, Aces4, when you quoted me above, I had not edited for typos and had not added the thing at the bottom about how I know I need to stop engaging in these types of threads. Too predictable.)

Thie vaccine issue is multi-faceted. I addressed one facet in the post you quoted. But — it’s a facet — for sure.

Boomer

PS: In that thread about remembered posters, you said you miss Fumar and Muncle. Hey, that’s something we can definitely agree on. Smart guys — and each with a terrific sense of humor and a way with words. You must have been lurking for a while before you joined because Muncle left us in 2009, I think. He was my worthy opponent in debate — and we had a lot of fun with silly threads.

The vaccine debate is important because I fear mandatory vaccination laws will be put in place and I fear that far more than Covid-19.

There is far and away too much shrouding of statistics regarding deaths during the pandemic and we’ll never know the truth. Do I wish people would be covid vaccinated, yes. But how far do we want the reach of government in our health decisions? I have been vaccinated.

Regarding Fumar and Muncle, they were two fine posters and I miss their ruminations and style. Time moves quickly.

[thevillages2013]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?
Who is Covis and why is she spiking cases of something?:MOJE_whot:

[Girlcopper]

The difference is that "not wearing seatbelts" isn't contagious. You not wearing a seatbelt is not going to hurt me, if you are in an accident. Indoor smoking is mostly banned in most parts of the country outside the privacy of your own home or vehicle. It's also banned in many outdoor public venues, parks and recreational areas nationwide. But I won't become a smoker just because you are a smoker. Smoking isn't contagious.

COVID is contagious, and you don't have to be "doing" anything to transmit it. Just get physically close enough to someone and breathe in their general direction, and if it's "their turn" to catch it, you will transmit it to them.
True. Anyone smoking and dying from lung cancer or not wearing a seat belt and dying in a car accident isnt my problem. Its your stupid choice and doesnt affect me in any way.
Your not getting vaccinated affects me, my family and friends since this is a contagious virus. It isnt my choice to grt the virus. You forced it on me. Big difference in comparisons

[Bay Kid]

I have an opinion.

[Eg_cruz]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?
This is why I don’t trust Big Pharmaceutical and why I will not get the shot

By one estimate, taking prescribed medications is the fourth leading cause of death among Americans. Americans are taking more medications than ever before. Nearly 60 to 70 percent of us take at least one prescribed drug, depending upon the estimate; for many it amounts to a fistful, potpourri of pills per day.

This not not count how many get ill or end up in care. My friend has been in a nursing home for 5 years because of her meds.

Why people trust Big Pharmaceutical is beyond me

[Hiltongrizz11]

All deaths are preventable in some form. Wrap up in bubble wrap, never get in a vehicle and never fly.

Sarcasm is being used here to point out that safety is never number one priority. Living is the priority and when you live you take risks

[hardwick2112@yahoo.com]

It is an individual decision, not one ANY government should dictate. If you want to stay inside the rest of your life, it is your decision.

[Bill14564]

This is why I don’t trust Big Pharmaceutical and why I will not get the shot

By one estimate, taking prescribed medications is the fourth leading cause of death among Americans. Americans are taking more medications than ever before. Nearly 60 to 70 percent of us take at least one prescribed drug, depending upon the estimate; for many it amounts to a fistful, potpourri of pills per day.

This not not count how many get ill or end up in care. My friend has been in a nursing home for 5 years because of her meds.

Why people trust Big Pharmaceutical is beyond me

You have your opinion. About 1500 of those that shared your opinion died from/with COVID last week (and the week before and the week before that.....) Using the numbers from "one estimate," that particular opinion on taking the shot will keep COVID in contention for the fourth leading cause of death.

[G.R.I.T.S.]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

I’ve been diligently trying to learn if the variant is deadly, but have not been able to do so. I understand it to be fast spreading, but so is flu and the common cold. Is there a spike in deaths along with the spike in cases?

[malikjam]

:coolsmiley:First, flip flopping is very prejudicial. In my not so humble opinion, updating your position when new data is available is rational. Sadly in something like the pandemic of a never seen before virus can result in rapid changes in knowledge. Initial projections and advice is normally given based on previous similar viruses, with the caveats that they could be wrong. As time passes more information becomes available and projections and recommendations change. Then almost always the virus mutates and the experts have to start over. This can be very distressing to many people who are afraid and looking for answers.

The question, is the death rate acceptable is a hard question. And easier question is, is any preventable death acceptable, to which I would say, no. Even one preventable death is unacceptable. BUT. The problem is the second question, “at what cost.?” The cost can be economic, freedoms, potential future (long term) impacts, etc, etc, etc. Each of us have to come to a risk/reward assessment we are comfortable with.

Personally I think we are heading into a global economic collapse - depression or recession - that combined with continuing mutations will end up with governments around the world including the US, making isolation and vaccinations mandatory. The sad thing is there is every reason to believe we could have stopped this virus and it’s resulting variants if extreme measures had been taken earlier. But, that solution was unacceptable through out most of the world.

I hope I am wrong, for my children and grandchildren.

[GeriS]

“The sad thing is there is every reason to believe we could have stopped this virus and it’s resulting variants if extreme measures had been taken earlier. But, that solution was unacceptable through out most of the world.”

And, it appears also in the United States.....

“Anthony Fauci said on Sunday that he was horrified to hear the crowd at a conservative gathering this weekend cheering anti-vaccination comments.

"It's horrifying. I mean, they are cheering about someone saying that it's a good thing for people not to try and save their lives," Fauci told host Jake Tapper on CNN's "State of the Union," referring to the audience's reaction to remarks at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas.

Fauci also said that it was “almost frightening” for people to say that they don’t want health officials to save their lives. ”

Fauci: 'Horrifying' to hear CPAC crowd cheering anti-vaccination remarks | TheHill (https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/562453-fauci-horrifying-to-hear-cpac-crowd-cheering-missed-vaccine-goal)
Fauci knew h c q worked years ago and held it from people. He won't be able to walk down the street before long. He & the governors who pushed people into nursing homes won't either. There have been no more deaths than a year with the flu. The jab has eliminated more people that all vaccines total. 5K in US, 10K in UK & hundreds of thousands injured with adverse reactions.

[GeriS]

Yeah, that’s another problem...who do you believe?

Kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252728088.html


If you paste that link in your search/url bar you can read the article.
You mean fraudci? You do realize delta means you are asleep?

[kenoc7]

Fauci knew h c q worked years ago and held it from people. He won't be able to walk down the street before long. He & the governors who pushed people into nursing homes won't either. There have been no more deaths than a year with the flu. The jab has eliminated more people that all vaccines total. 5K in US, 10K in UK & hundreds of thousands injured with adverse reactions.
A totally fact free post.

[GrumpyOldMan]

A totally fact free post.

I had to re-read the comment you are referring to, and I have to agree, in my opinion, it is a fact-free post. Sadly, it is what a lot of people believe.

[Bonnevie]

It's horrifying to see this weasel on television.

Dr. Fauci has been a dedicated virus expert for years. To denigrate him because certain people have chosen to attack him rather than the poor initial handling of the pandemic still shocks me. I can never understand why it's necessary for people to attack someone personally rather than perhaps objecting to their views by providing convincing evidence.

[Bill14564]

I’ve been diligently trying to learn if the variant is deadly, but have not been able to do so. I understand it to be fast spreading, but so is flu and the common cold. Is there a spike in deaths along with the spike in cases?

This WaPo page (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/?itid=hp_hp-banner-low_web-gfx-death-tracker%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans) has some nice graphics that might help. In one of them you can see that cases started rising right around July 4. So far deaths have not increased but since there has typically been a two-week lag between cases and deaths, we are just now getting to the point where they would be expected to increase. Data from the next week or so should show whether the death ratio is higher now than it was previously.

[bp243]

Not wearing a seat belt and in an accident, the result I may never be able to walk again...no vaccination could result in death....neither is acceptable to me.
Thank you…so succinctly stated! Plus, one lives with the possibility of affecting others with serious harm or death.

[allsport]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?


The death and case rate are neither reported by the state nor are they acceptable in a place where vaccinations prevent both. I have had a series of doctor appointments over the last month and am amazed about the lack of vaccine administration to staff in their offices. Vaccines should be a condition of employment, period, in order to protect the patients that you serve. The VA is making it a condition of employment and in most cities medical centers are doing the same. Complain when you go to the doc if the staff is not vaccinated. Ask ALL staff that question. I have had people tell me it is not my business and I said actually it is if you are in this enclosed room with me.

[lpkruege1]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

Funny you should ask. If it saves one life. What about the lives the vaccines take? What about the real health consequences some people are susceptible to? Everyone has to make their own choice to get vaccinated. CDC says there is 0.65 % mortality rate for those infected with Covid 19. Yet there are those that have died or developed severe reactions to the vaccine. How many lives lost to vaccination is acceptable to you?
F.D.A. Attaches Warning of Rare Nerve Syndrome to Johnson & Johnson Covid Vaccine (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-d-a-will-attach-warning-of-rare-nerve-syndrome-to-johnson-johnson-vaccine/ar-AAM3XQo?ocid=msedgntp&fbclid=IwAR1mMNcrgy1mmF4tbtQ1PqYya9-rQRv6IL7gpCqoaQLOQLFfvNE1CN35MTQ)

[charmed59]

The Delta variant may be the way this pandemic ends. It spreads so fast everyone will soon come in contact with it. If they are immune it won’t take root. If they aren’t they will catch it. If they recover they too will be immune.

So the only choice is how you chose to be immune, get vaccinated and almost assuredly get immunity. Or catch it and almost assuredly get immunity.

[Rose Ann Vinci Igoe]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

Well the difference in those who elect not to wear seat belts, smoke, it only effects them.

[donassaid]

Gee, I don't know. I wonder if the spike in serious side effects and deaths among healthy people who took an experimental gene therapy shot for a virus with a better than 99% survival rate has caused those who took one or more of the shots to have 2nd thoughts?

[donassaid]

According to Fauci and the CDC, being "vaccinated" does NOT assure that you will be immune to the variant. If you want to believe Fauci, then you must believe everything he says, not part of it.

[Swoop]

Well the difference in those who elect not to wear seat belts, smoke, it only effects them.

Not really. If you smoke, you overeat, you don’t exercise, then everyone pays higher insurance rates to cover your hospitalization and treatments. So it effects everyone…
And if you’re vaccinated, then you are protected, unless you don’t believe that the vaccine actually protects you…

[Bill14564]

Funny you should ask. If it saves one life. What about the lives the vaccines take? What about the real health consequences some people are susceptible to? Everyone has to make their own choice to get vaccinated. CDC says there is 0.65 % mortality rate for those infected with Covid 19. Yet there are those that have died or developed severe reactions to the vaccine. How many lives lost to vaccination is acceptable to you?
F.D.A. Attaches Warning of Rare Nerve Syndrome to Johnson & Johnson Covid Vaccine (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-d-a-will-attach-warning-of-rare-nerve-syndrome-to-johnson-johnson-vaccine/ar-AAM3XQo?ocid=msedgntp&fbclid=IwAR1mMNcrgy1mmF4tbtQ1PqYya9-rQRv6IL7gpCqoaQLOQLFfvNE1CN35MTQ)

I have not seen that 0.65% number, the last number I have seen and the number I get when I do the math is closer to 1.5% or 1.8%.

You seem to use that 0.65% number as a low number; it really isn't, but for the moment let's take it as low. You then include that article to question whether the vaccines are safe. In the article it says that the syndrome has occurred 10 times as frequently after having the J&J vaccine than is generally expected. "10 times" sounds frighteningly high but what are the numbers? The article says that 100 cases have developed after 12.8M injections. My calculator says that the occurrence of the syndrome in those vaccinated with the J&J vaccine is approximately 0.00078% or about 1,000 times LESS than your low number for the COVID death rate.

So take your pick, one case of a possibly serious syndrome out of every 100,000 injections or 1 permanent death out of every 100 infections.

Even the article you posted has this statement:
... “They’ll say, ‘Aha, see, I was right.’ But they’re not right.”

The risk is low enough, he added, that “for people trying to make a rational decision, this should not influence their decision to get vaccinated.”

[Bill14564]

Gee, I don't know. I wonder if the spike in serious side effects and deaths among healthy people who took an experimental gene therapy shot for a virus with a better than 99% survival rate has caused those who took one or more of the shots to have 2nd thoughts?

You know it might IF the shots were gene therapy and IF they were experimental and IF there was a spike and IF the virus had a better than 99% survival rate. But since none of those are true.....

[Bonnevie]

This is why I don’t trust Big Pharmaceutical and why I will not get the shot

By one estimate, taking prescribed medications is the fourth leading cause of death among Americans. Americans are taking more medications than ever before. Nearly 60 to 70 percent of us take at least one prescribed drug, depending upon the estimate; for many it amounts to a fistful, potpourri of pills per day.

This not not count how many get ill or end up in care. My friend has been in a nursing home for 5 years because of her meds.

Why people trust Big Pharmaceutical is beyond me

As a former pharmacist I'd like to address this. From my experience there were three types of people. Some always wanted a pill from their doctor and they would have pages of prescriptions but were usually the sickest. Then there were those, like yourself, that didn't trust scientific evidence and wanted nothing. Now many of those people had no problem taking unregulated "herbals" obtained over the counter and costing plenty. Wondering if you take any supplements like that? then there are the people who may have to take a prescription medication for a valid reason, say thyroid medication or blood pressure. Many of these take only a very few necessary ones to control their condition and they were usually the among the healthiest (only beat by those who took none.)

yes, polypharmacy exists and it's a big problem especially among the elderly. I recently helped a neighbor sort thru her meds and there were many duplicate class of meds because she failed to realize she was supposed to stop one when another started. it's vitally important that patients know what they are taking and why they are taking it. if you use a local retail pharmacy you can ask for counseling from the pharmacist. it you use a mail in system, you can call because they should have pharmacists available to do the same.

but to just make a blanket statement that anything that comes from Big Pharma is questionable is unfortunate.

[Bonnevie]

I’ve been diligently trying to learn if the variant is deadly, but have not been able to do so. I understand it to be fast spreading, but so is flu and the common cold. Is there a spike in deaths along with the spike in cases?

guess we'll have to wait and see--but wouldn't want this to have happened to my child.

7 Children in Intensive Care, 2 on Life Support, in Mississippi as State Sees Surge in Delta Variant Cases | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/health/7-children-in-icu-2-on-life-support-battling-covid-in-mississippi-as-state-sees-surge-in-delta-variant/)

[Spalumbos62]

It's horrifying to see this weasel on television.


Please.......first, one only wishes they could be as smart.
2) he has had nothing but pushback from people w/o brains and
3) the people that can't get out of their own way...well most likely won't be around if they catch the delta strain. They had every chance to help themselves, they put their cause in front of their own health, or future....I don't get it.
I will agree there was a extremely small amount of risk by vaccinating, but I truly believe we are going to see allot of sickness and death very very soon.
Sorry folks...there were no chips inside, no tracers, Bill Gates is not involved in a conspiracy...it was/is a horrendous pandemic and we have a 99% fix.
We were lead to the water....now drink

[Becca9800]

I have had a series of doctor appointments over the last month and am amazed about the lack of vaccine administration to staff in their offices. Vaccines should be a condition of employment, period, in order to protect the patients that you serve. The VA is making it a condition of employment and in most cities medical centers are doing the same. Complain when you go to the doc if the staff is not vaccinated. Ask ALL staff that question. I have had people tell me it is not my business and I said actually it is if you are in this enclosed room with me.

Lack of vaccines amongst healthcare workers..... just think about that for a moment. WHY would a previously assumed intelligent person not accept the vaccine?

Vaccine a condition of employment.... careful what you wish for. There's many out there that will quit the industry before they agree to this vaccine. That's how strong THEY feel.

Ask all staff if they're vaccinated..... You're very likely to get some not so polite responses. And deservedly so.

[nick demis]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

If you want to get vaccinated, do if, if not, don't. It has gotten to the point of, "who cares". What ever happened to the, "you mind your business and I'll mind mine".

[Bill14564]

Lack of vaccines amongst healthcare workers..... just think about that for a moment. WHY would a previously assumed intelligent person not accept the vaccine?

Vaccine a condition of employment.... careful what you wish for. There's many out there that will quit the industry before they agree to this vaccine. That's how strong THEY feel.

Ask all staff if they're vaccinated..... You're very likely to get some not so polite responses. And deservedly so.

Previous assumptions were incorrect.

[Becca9800]

guess we'll have to wait and see--but wouldn't want this to have happened to my child.

7 Children in Intensive Care, 2 on Life Support, in Mississippi as State Sees Surge in Delta Variant Cases | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/health/7-children-in-icu-2-on-life-support-battling-covid-in-mississippi-as-state-sees-surge-in-delta-variant/)

Well of course, no one would want that to happen to any child.

Were the kids in ICU under 12? Couldn't have had the vaccine in any event, they don't qualify if under 12 yo. The article also doesn't discuss the kids health histories. Are these cases where the kid has significant co-morbidities? We're all too well aware that those w co-morbidities were THE most vulnerable with the first wave of C19? Is there reason yet to believe this isn't the case w this latest wave?

I've read several articles who cite studies that show while this Delta variant is more contagious, it is not more deadly.

[Byte1]

“The sad thing is there is every reason to believe we could have stopped this virus and it’s resulting variants if extreme measures had been taken earlier. But, that solution was unacceptable through out most of the world.”

And, it appears also in the United States.....

“Anthony Fauci said on Sunday that he was horrified to hear the crowd at a conservative gathering this weekend cheering anti-vaccination comments.

"It's horrifying. I mean, they are cheering about someone saying that it's a good thing for people not to try and save their lives," Fauci told host Jake Tapper on CNN's "State of the Union," referring to the audience's reaction to remarks at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas.

Fauci also said that it was “almost frightening” for people to say that they don’t want health officials to save their lives. ”

Fauci: 'Horrifying' to hear CPAC crowd cheering anti-vaccination remarks | TheHill (https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/562453-fauci-horrifying-to-hear-cpac-crowd-cheering-missed-vaccine-goal)

Fauci is just a political hack. At one time he might have been at the top of his game, but he's been political for at least two decades. He might as well be a lawyer for all the credibility I give him.

[Pat2015]

The death and case rate are neither reported by the state nor are they acceptable in a place where vaccinations prevent both. I have had a series of doctor appointments over the last month and am amazed about the lack of vaccine administration to staff in their offices. Vaccines should be a condition of employment, period, in order to protect the patients that you serve. The VA is making it a condition of employment and in most cities medical centers are doing the same. Complain when you go to the doc if the staff is not vaccinated. Ask ALL staff that question. I have had people tell me it is not my business and I said actually it is if you are in this enclosed room with me.
Disagree with several of your points, as it’s a personal decision as to whether to get vaccinated and their decision shouldn’t be disclosed to you just like your personal medical information should not be disclosed to others. Also, a correction to what you said as vaccinations don’t prevent vaccinated people from becoming infected.

[Spalumbos62]

First do you know how many threats I get on here claiming I am being political. It is insane.

I never post anything remotely political without a back up quoted article or two or a link to a video. Although those who attack me each day very seldom supply any.
backup

I posted this because as we watch a very organized movement against vaccination ( I did not post the Representive using the anti drug chant “just say no” in referring to the vaccine.

The OP made good points, but I differ in blaming the world should anything happen. We HAD the vaccine....easily available. The rest of the world is not in that position.

How can there be a forum where only certain “facts” are allowed.

I am not the political one.....this was made political by our own leaders. Since day one.

Sorry if I get brusque, but getting tired of self appointed critics, WITHOUT ANY FACTS TO DISPUTE, calling every post political. We are discussing Covid vaccinations, and lack of participation, and there is no doubt of the OPEN resistance along political lines.


I agree 100%. If it comes across political, well maybe there is no denying it was..is. no one can deny what...he...did, what he downplayed. Sorry, but now it's part if history and some of the people that post- with a very strong hand...saying "you can't say that" and then end with a strong political comment themselves, don't get removed???? Very interesting.
Ps...then of course there will be some silly emoje, coming thru as condensing....that too is ok??

[HRDave]

The difference is that "not wearing seatbelts" isn't contagious. You not wearing a seatbelt is not going to hurt me, if you are in an accident. Indoor smoking is mostly banned in most parts of the country outside the privacy of your own home or vehicle. It's also banned in many outdoor public venues, parks and recreational areas nationwide. But I won't become a smoker just because you are a smoker. Smoking isn't contagious.

COVID is contagious, and you don't have to be "doing" anything to transmit it. Just get physically close enough to someone and breathe in their general direction, and if it's "their turn" to catch it, you will transmit it to them.

If you’re vaccinated you’re protected from the unvaccinated. They’re not going to infect you (at least extremely unlikely)
Get your vaccination & let the rest do what they wish.
Quit trying to push the vaccination on those who don’t want it. Nature will take it’s course.
Live & Let Live!

[Becca9800]

Previous assumptions were incorrect.

Your previous assumption was incorrect? What does that say about you then? That you lacked the ability to identify 'unintelligent' when you saw it? That you ignorantly entrusted your life to the 'unintelligent'? So either your statement, "Previous assumptions were incorrect" is ignorant OR you were. I'm going to go w your statement, it is so beneath your usual responses.

[Spalumbos62]

Just want to address the implications and accusations.

My user name is Bucco. It is my only user name....no others. I did have another...Rags123, which was suggested to me way back by talkhost. Not used since my wife used it to PM someone, and was attacked very “loudly” about guess what...politics.
——————————————-

I am, as of 2016 an independent, after over 50 years as a working member of GOP. My views have always been issue driven, not by party, thus you may think about “switching sides”, but trust me I never have looked back except in sadness. I will speak my true feelings should I choose to post. I will be honest, and as so, can also accept honesty.
————————-

Not sure why disagreeing about lying or spreading false conspiracies, or anything anti American is, to you, venting anger. I have served my country in various ways for 65 of my 82 years. Yes, I am sensitive to the violence on Jan 6, because I worked there and roamed those halls. That is a sacred building, at least to me.
————————————-

I simply respond to a post, and as normal am confronted not with a post disagreeing with my post, but aimed at me. The issue is gone, and the hatred surfaces. If you have another opinion please share. Just discuss the issue and stop with the games played. Not impressed or intimidated.
————————-

But do not speak to me about “bubbling” anger.

I will always speak out against lies, commission or omission. I start out assuming everyone is like that, then I am confronted with this “anger”. This same charge has been made, always on the same thing.....I allowed a fact you just were uncomfortable with.
—————-
This was not “political click bat”. BTK started a good thread about the lack of vaccinations. He alluded to non Americans being the reason. I tool exception to that, using just a few recent statements to make my point.

NOBODY has posted disagreement with what I said. Just, as said here “same led same old” while totally ignoring the thread subject. And calling me out personally for making this political. I was at no rallies.....I did not exhort people to not get a vaccine.....I did not mock anyone, as this is important.

So, please....at least be honest with your posts. Stop making things up, and if you wish to converse, do so ON WHATEVER THE SUBJECT OF THE POST YOU RESPOND TO.

There are some who enjoy, NOT conversation, but concentrated attacks.

I am not the one to be angry at.....try facing truth about who leads the attacks on truth. Try discussing the content, and stop coming after the person who is sharing the truth, although it may be uncomfortable for you to hear.

Truth, I speak of. If my opinion, I say that. To say what I posted here today is not true.....well, a problem then exists that only you can resolve,


Again, thank you....a well deserved spanking.

[JMintzer]

You have your opinion. About 1500 of those that shared your opinion died from/with COVID last week (and the week before and the week before that.....) Using the numbers from "one estimate," that particular opinion on taking the shot will keep COVID in contention for the fourth leading cause of death.

The most recent weekly death report was 154, not 1500..., Down 25% from the prior week...

COVID Data Tracker Weekly Review | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html)

[Bill14564]

The most recent weekly death report was 154, not 1500..., Down 25% from the prior week...

COVID Data Tracker Weekly Review | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html)

I believe you will find that is the 7-day average of daily deaths.

154 -> 1078 deaths in a week
205 -> 1435 deaths in a week (1500 seemed close enough)

It's odd that those numbers are about 50 less than what the WaPo presents. It *could* be that the WaPo accumulates on the day the deaths were reported rather than assigning them to the day they occurred.

[Wyseguy]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

It is increasingly difficult to know what to believe in the press or social media. Last year I had my accounts first stamped with a fact check then my account was suspended. My crime was suggesting that the Covid was created in a lab. Back then the main media labeled anyone with such a view as a nut. The social media banned any posts. If you googled the origin of the virus there were no posts that offered a possibility of the lab leak.

[Wyseguy]

Fauci is just a political hack. At one time he might have been at the top of his game, but he's been political for at least two decades. He might as well be a lawyer for all the credibility I give him.

Fauci, like Mueller and Biden, should have been retired many years ago. It is cruel to destroy the memory of people who have dedicated so many years to public service because some want to use them to further their extremist beliefs.

[Bill14564]

Your previous assumption was incorrect? What does that say about you then? That you lacked the ability to identify 'unintelligent' when you saw it? That you ignorantly entrusted your life to the 'unintelligent'? So either your statement, "Previous assumptions were incorrect" is ignorant OR you were. I'm going to go w your statement, it is so beneath your usual responses.

Just to clear things up, "WHY would a previously assumed intelligent person not accept the vaccine?" Because the previous assumption that they were all intelligent persons was incorrect. Just because someone works in a medical office or wears a badge from a medical facility does not guarantee they have sound medical opinions.

But to turn the question around a little, if there is a good reason why these previously assumed intelligent persons did not accept the vaccine then what does it say about their coworkers who DID accept the vaccine?

I will absolutely question my choice of healthcare workers based on the choices I see them making.

Though to agree with part of your previous post - it is improper to demand to know if someone is vaccinated and mandates are the wrong way to go.

[Wyseguy]

True. Anyone smoking and dying from lung cancer or not wearing a seat belt and dying in a car accident isnt my problem. Its your stupid choice and doesnt affect me in any way.
Your not getting vaccinated affects me, my family and friends since this is a contagious virus. It isnt my choice to grt the virus. You forced it on me. Big difference in comparisons

Oral Herpes is a very contagious disease that infects and affects millions. I would like to know the status (pertaining to oral herpes) of my waiter and chef when I go out to restaurants. Someone with oral herpes can easily transmit the disease to a plate at a restaurant. This is the case even when dormant and there are no symptoms. As this directly affects the patron, should he have the right to see the recent test results of his waiter?

[Bogie Shooter]

Where the devil was Fauci’s indignation when the vice presidential candidate said she wouldn’t take the vaccine if it has President Trump’s support? Where was everyone’s indignation since that statement really kicked off the distrust since President Trump does support the vaccines. Talk about horrifying, Fauci should have been front and center on that one and VERY loud. Perhaps many people would be more confident now.
Now that is a POLITICAL POST!

[Byte1]

To preface my comment, I have my shots. That said, I do NOT encourage or discourage anyone from getting the vaccination. The reason I refuse to encourage my children and grandkids/great grandkids to get vaccinated with this vaccine is that I am NOT totally positive that there are not some possible negative side effects that may occur several years from now. I just do not know and they can not give us guarantees. I doubt I would believe them if they did. You can give me tons of subject matter to study, but the ONLY way one is to get true, historical facts is after a period of time. Since my children and grandchildren have had the virus (most of them) and have survived with little effort, hardly more than suffering a cold, I do not see the harm of them refusing the vaccination. If they get it, so be it. I will not discourage them from getting the shots. My opinion is that children should not be given the vaccination until we are sure it is essential. Yes, I understand there was much research and testing. BUT, I would feel much better after we have the results of the vaccinations after a decade or two to be sure something as serious as sterility or other forms of disease are not cased as a side effect.
Don't get me wrong, the vaccination HAS been a miracle and has saved probably millions of lives in the world. Would I have gotten the vaccination if not for my spouse's medical condition? Maybe not. Am I glad I did get my shots? So far, yes.
To summarize, the reason I will not encourage or discourage anyone to get the shot is that I do not want to be responsible for the guilt I would feel if I was instrumental in a bad reaction or permanent damage caused by the vaccine.

[Rosebud1949]

It's horrifying to see this weasel on television.

Why cant folk see that if we are all vaccinated the virus has no host to infect, pass on to others and possibly kill. How can you take that risk with family and loved ones. Insurance Co. may decided NOT to pay for hospitalizations for Covid and Varients. They may charge additional fees for those not fully vaccinated.

Why should Doctors and Nurses have to treat those who flaunt their "non vaccinated" attitude. I know its their job, but these non vaccinated folk wont help themselves, and just keep spreading it.

[LianneMigiano]

Food for thought for anti-vaxers..... If the schools have to close again what will they do for day care? All those two-family earners with young children will be unemployed again - just when so many states are doing away with enhanced unemployment benefits!

[Aces4]

Now that is a POLITICAL POST!

Not any more than that other guy pointing out Fauci’s horror at a “ conservative gatherings”. I simply pointed out the start of the whole public anti vaccine statements vs that other poster’s political posturing.

Surely you can see it’s not political.:)

[GrumpyOldMan]

To preface my comment, I have my shots. That said, I do NOT encourage or discourage anyone from getting the vaccination. The reason I refuse to encourage my children and grandkids/great grandkids to get vaccinated with this vaccine is that I am NOT totally positive that there are not some possible negative side effects that may occur several years from now. I just do not know and they can not give us guarantees. I doubt I would believe them if they did. You can give me tons of subject matter to study, but the ONLY way one is to get true, historical facts is after a period of time. Since my children and grandchildren have had the virus (most of them) and have survived with little effort, hardly more than suffering a cold, I do not see the harm of them refusing the vaccination. If they get it, so be it. I will not discourage them from getting the shots. My opinion is that children should not be given the vaccination until we are sure it is essential. Yes, I understand there was much research and testing. BUT, I would feel much better after we have the results of the vaccinations after a decade or two to be sure something as serious as sterility or other forms of disease are not cased as a side effect.
Don't get me wrong, the vaccination HAS been a miracle and has saved probably millions of lives in the world. Would I have gotten the vaccination if not for my spouse's medical condition? Maybe not. Am I glad I did get my shots? So far, yes.
To summarize, the reason I will not encourage or discourage anyone to get the shot is that I do not want to be responsible for the guilt I would feel if I was instrumental in a bad reaction or permanent damage caused by the vaccine.

Very good post, thank you.

Two things, not to argue but expand on what you say.

1. There will never be a guarantee. There was only be a reason to believe it is better than the alternative. I don't believe there is a single medication that is without side effects - and sometimes those side effects seem worse than the issue the medication is supposed to treat.

2. Time - I am not a doctor or medical researcher, I am not aware of what methods are available to predict long-term effects. I know in the computer industry. And long term reliability is a crucial component of total product life cycle costs for companies (it should be for people too, but most people impulse buy) There are numerous methods to do accelerated aging and to determine probably or expected component failures. Since the healthcare industry deals with people's lives and has a history of "oh darns" (Thalidomide among others) I would be amazed if they don't also have methodologies that allow for accelerated long-term outcome prediction.

[Aces4]

Why cant folk see that if we are all vaccinated the virus has no host to infect, pass on to others and possibly kill. How can you take that risk with family and loved ones. Insurance Co. may decided NOT to pay for hospitalizations for Covid and Varients. They may charge additional fees for those not fully vaccinated.

Why should Doctors and Nurses have to treat those who flaunt their "non vaccinated" attitude. I know its their job, but these non vaccinated folk wont help themselves, and just keep spreading it.

I don’t believe it will ever be eradicated. They are now looking into the possibility of another booster shot for the original vaccinations. It will just go on and on like influenza and probably keep morphing the same way.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Why cant folk see that if we are all vaccinated the virus has no host to infect, pass on to others and possibly kill.

That is a good point, but I think an even more important point is that the longer the virus is free to spread, it is also mutating (slower spread results in slower mutation rate) and the more mutations there are the more likely a WORSE variant will appear that the vaccines will not be effective against. And we have to start all over again.

And the economy will not withstand too many more shutdowns.

Why should Doctors and Nurses have to treat those who flaunt their "non vaccinated" attitude. I know its their job, but these non vaccinated folk wont help themselves, and just keep spreading it.

Well, please understand I am posting the next partially "tongue in cheek", but many of those (not all) that refuse vaccinations also disagree with paying for healthcare for obese people, or at least believe health insurance companies should charge premiums to people that smoke, overweight, etc, etc.

So, what if hospitals refused to treat people COVID that were not vacinated?

[Altavia]

If you want to get vaccinated, do if, if not, don't. It has gotten to the point of, "who cares". What ever happened to the, "you mind your business and I'll mind mine".

Things have changed, this varient is a different animal, increasing numbers of children are ending up infected, in the hospital, on vents and dying. This is just the beginning.

Those closest to them are now besides themselves for not protecting their children from themselves.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Not any more than that other guy pointing out Fauci’s horror at a “ conservative gatherings”. I simply pointed out the start of the whole public anti vaccine statements vs that other poster’s political posturing.

Surely you can see it’s not political.:)

See it wasn't the gathering, or that they were conservatives, it was the lack of precautions taken to prevent infections.

[Aces4]

See it wasn't the gathering, or that they were conservatives, it was the lack of precautions taken to prevent infections.

“Anthony Fauci said on Sunday that he was horrified to hear the crowd at a conservative gathering this weekend cheering anti-vaccination comments.


It was Fauci’s indignation at that political gathering giving vaccines a thumbs down. But the largest audience witnessing thumbs down came the night that question was asked during a debate which millions were watching and the answer was no. Hard to backtrack after that.

[Dana1963]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?
Only 15,000+ Covid cases reported by Florida 7/13/2021
"The state is reporting daily cases close to four times the national average...the second-highest number in the country. The state’s latest covid-19 death rate is almost double the national figure."

[Byte1]

I want to apologize for getting sidetracked on my recent post from the subject. It is easy to do when there are many other posters, with their own ideas.
I believe the subject of this thread was in regards to a "spike" in COVID infections? IMO the infection count is not as important as the stats on COVID related hospitalizations and especially COVID related deaths. Wasn't the ambition of the vaccinations aimed at lowering deaths and hospitalizations? Was there any guarantee that the vaccine would eliminate positive test results? No. The flu shot does not eliminate the FLU, it makes infections less dangerous for the vaccinated, right?
Stats show that the vaccinations OR weakening of the virus OR the rising immunity have resulted in less COVID related deaths. Sorry, I am not providing a "link" to such stats, but everyone here seems to have their own preference as to where the information must originate in order to pass their muster.

[Byte1]

I don’t believe it will ever be eradicated. They are now looking into the possibility of another booster shot for the original vaccinations. It will just go on and on like influenza and probably keep morphing the same way.

Last I heard, the CDC (:1rotfl:) said that a booster is not necessary. Did that change again?

[Aces4]

Last I heard, the CDC (:1rotfl:) said that a booster is not necessary. Did that change again?

Yeah, it was a sound byte on the news yesterday. I don’t get why that would be funny but if boosters do it for you, go for it.:BigApplause:


CNN Friday stated that Pfizer has seen waning efficacy in immunity and third dose may be necessary 6-12 months after vaccination.

[Byte1]

Yeah, it was a sound byte on the news yesterday. I don’t get why that would be funny but if boosters do it for you, go for it.:BigApplause:


CNN Friday stated that Pfizer has seen waning efficacy in immunity and third dose may be necessary 6-12 months after vaccination.

Sorry, the laughing emoji was supposed to be associated with the current reputation that the CDC has in the public eye/news by many Americans. We have received so much "evolved" changes in their directives that many find it difficult to grant them the credibility or respect that I am sure they deserve.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I don’t believe it will ever be eradicated. They are now looking into the possibility of another booster shot for the original vaccinations. It will just go on and on like influenza and probably keep morphing the same way.

The chances are you are right. It will not be easy. Smallpox, Polio, etc, are not eradicated, but are "controlled".

The Influenza virus is not eradicated and is related to the corona virus. To eradicate it would require massive mandatory vaccinations worldwide. And they would have to address all current variants and would have to be distributed faster than the virus could mutate.

Not a likely outcome.

So, we are likely entering into an era of cyclic profit for the vaccine companies where we get vaccinations every year for this year's variant.

Of course, the problem is we don't know if that will slow COVID as effectively as it does the seasonal flu.

[Aces4]

Sorry, the laughing emoji was supposed to be associated with the current reputation that the CDC has in the public eye/news by many Americans. We have received so much "evolved" changes in their directives that many find it difficult to grant them the credibility or respect that I am sure they deserve.

Ah, I agree that makes sense.

[Spalumbos62]

“Anthony Fauci said on Sunday that he was horrified to hear the crowd at a conservative gathering this weekend cheering anti-vaccination comments.


It was Fauci’s indignation at that political gathering giving vaccines a thumbs down. But the largest audience witnessing thumbs down came the night that question was asked during a debate which millions were watching and the answer was no. Hard to backtrack after that.


But as many have said, and common sense, things changed daily with the proceedings of handling of this virus....mask- no mask, distance, droplets. He's not a God, nor pretends to be....they found info and put it out there. It was ever evolving...sorry you can't open your mind, but just criticize.

[Aces4]

But as many have said, and common sense, things changed daily with the proceedings of handling of this virus....mask- no mask, distance, droplets. He's not a God, nor pretends to be....they found info and put it out there. It was ever evolving...sorry you can't open your mind, but just criticize.

Ah, watching Fauci horrified at that rather small meeting vs a huge public televised venue knocking the vaccine and Fauci not immediately reproaching that statement was not my doing. You don’t have to be political to know what would have been the proper response, do you?

[Spalumbos62]

Thank you for the correction, I thought it was a previous rally - my bad.

I checked and see what you are saying is true.

I guess I still say, that is not political, he would have expressed outrage at any gathering promoting not getting vacinated. Regardless of political leaning. I guess I think as a leading expert in viral infections I would expect nothing less of him.

In fact, to make this a little political, I was dismayed last year when he was standing beside then President Trump and supporting the Presidents positions on the virus. At that point he was a "hero", once he started not supporting the president he became a villain.

At least that is how it seems to me.


Oh we all know the reasoning behind all that, remember Dr Birk (sp) on 60minutes and many other news shows, the pressure to lie from T

[Spalumbos62]

Ah, watching Fauci horrified at that rather small meeting vs a huge public televised venue knocking the vaccine and Fauci not immediately reproaching that statement was not my doing. You don’t have to be political to know what would have been the proper response, do you?


What I'm saying is...one meeting was way back in the beginning, maybe jan2020, or earlier, the recent booers was only days ago. (Unless we are not referencing the same thing)

[Seamus6]

Please.......first, one only wishes they could be as smart.
2) he has had nothing but pushback from people w/o brains and
3) the people that can't get out of their own way...well most likely won't be around if they catch the delta strain. They had every chance to help themselves, they put their cause in front of their own health, or future....I don't get it.
I will agree there was a extremely small amount of risk by vaccinating, but I truly believe we are going to see allot of sickness and death very very soon.
Sorry folks...there were no chips inside, no tracers, Bill Gates is not involved in a conspiracy...it was/is a horrendous pandemic and we have a 99% fix.
We were lead to the water....now drink

Bill Gates was probably involved in many conspiracies...just not this particular one!

[Aces4]

What I'm saying is...one meeting was way back in the beginning, maybe jan2020, or earlier, the recent booers was only days ago. (Unless we are not referencing the same thing)

...booing now to a few or booing earlier from a position of power to the throngs when the vaccine was ready to be administered.

It is what it is and I didn’t really care to go there until one-sided info was provided by a poster.

[petiteone]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

The difference is that someone smoking in designated smoking areas, or not wearing a seat belt isn't going to kill me. An unvaccinated person in public can. Public Health is paramount. I grew up pre-polio vaccine American and people were lined up as if it was a patriotic event in 1955/1956 to get the Salk Vaccine.

[GrumpyOldMan]

The difference is that someone smoking in designated smoking areas, or not wearing a seat belt isn't going to kill me. An unvaccinated person in public can. Public Health is paramount. I grew up pre-polio vaccine American and people were lined up as if it was a patriotic event in 1955/1956 to get the Salk Vaccine.

I agree with what you are saying. The problem is with all the comparisons is that the vaccine - unlike seat belts - could possibly have very negative side effects. I personally don't think it will. I personally think the scientists will do everything they can to prevent that - but, it is possible.

And I sometimes have second thoughts about the scientists working for big pharma, and if their motivations are as pure as I hope they are.

So, for those that feel the vaccine is potentially more dangerous than it is helpful and are not taking the risk. I can understand. I disagree but understand.

I can see a time approaching when the decision will be taken out of their hands. When the government will have to step in and mandate vaccinations. I hope not, but it looks inevitible. And that will be a major poltical shat storm.

[Aces4]

I agree with what you are saying. The problem is with all the comparisons is that the vaccine - unlike seat belts - could possibly have very negative side effects. I personally don't think it will. I personally think the scientists will do everything they can to prevent that - but, it is possible.

And I sometimes have second thoughts about the scientists working for big pharma, and if their motivations are as pure as I hope they are.

So, for those that feel the vaccine is potentially more dangerous than it is helpful and are not taking the risk. I can understand. I disagree but understand.

I can see a time approaching when the decision will be taken out of their hands. When the government will have to step in and mandate vaccinations. I hope not, but it looks inevitible. And that will be a major poltical shat storm.

That is called tyranny and let’s hope that sh** never hits the fan.

[Bogie Shooter]

The Delta variant may be the way this pandemic ends. It spreads so fast everyone will soon come in contact with it. If they are immune it won’t take root. If they aren’t they will catch it. If they recover they too will be immune.

So the only choice is how you chose to be immune, get vaccinated and almost assuredly get immunity. Or catch it and almost assuredly get immunity.

Or die.

[fishon]

If the vaccine works you have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated people.
Do you know that the vaccine doesn’t work?
Or is it that you enjoy your fearfulness?

[Marty94]

It would seem there is a message in the current run up in numbers of "cases".

Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?

The politicians, the media and ultimately medical experts are flip flopping daily and even within the day!

Any different than those who elect to not wear seat belts? Who elect to continue smoking? We don't see these numbers being reported daily in the headlines!!
What is the difference?

Your original question asked, “Is the infection and or death rate acceptable to those choosing to not vaccinate?”

First, let me preface by saying that my husband, who currently practices medicine, and I received our vaccines as soon as they were offered. We did so as my husband saw the affects of this disease, both short term and long term. We encouraged our family members to do the same and most did, but a few still have not. This is their choice. It was my brother’s choice and he died and it still has not persuaded the others to reconsider. Statistics and spikes and news reporting simply won’t change their minds. You didn’t ask that question though, you asked if the death rate is acceptable.

As a society, we have become somewhat conditioned to acceptable levels of death. “Annual deaths from diseases such as influenza — which before the pandemic killed between one-quarter of a million and half a million people each year globally — offer a barometer.” How many COVID deaths are acceptable in a post-pandemic world? - Vaccine Safety Info (https://vaccinesafety.info/2021/06/02/how-many-covid-deaths-are-acceptable-in-a-post-pandemic-world/) As this article points out, there are many factors that will determine what is acceptable, whether a person is vaccinated or not. Covid is going to be around for some time and how we go forward is important. Perhaps by reporting Covid numbers, news outlets believe they can convince folks to get vaccinated and that’s why they continue to do so. As for my family and friends who have decided not to get the vaccine, it makes no difference.

[billethkid]

If the vaccine works you have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated people.
Do you know that the vaccine doesn’t work?
Or is it that you enjoy your fearfulness?

So does it follow that Un-vaccinated have nothing to fear........ but other un-vaccinated?

[GrumpyOldMan]

If the vaccine works you have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated people.
Do you know that the vaccine doesn’t work?
Or is it that you enjoy your fearfulness?

Uh, no, this is not true.

If enough people are not vaccinated, then the virus thrives, and as it thrives it mutates, and when it mutates it can take on a new form that is not affected by the vaccination. So, no, if I am vaccinated, I am mostly (nothing is 100%) immune from the current variant of the virus, but if enough do not get vaccinated that puts my life at risk.

And, I am sorry that so many feel that anyone that disagrees with them is "fearful". I grow tired of this silliness. It is possible to be cautious without fear. I do not worry about having an accident every time I get into a car, but I make sure my brakes are in good order and wear a seat belt. Life is full of dangers - taking reasonable precautions does not imply fear is driving the decisions.

[Bonnevie]

Well of course, no one would want that to happen to any child.

Were the kids in ICU under 12? Couldn't have had the vaccine in any event, they don't qualify if under 12 yo. The article also doesn't discuss the kids health histories. Are these cases where the kid has significant co-morbidities? We're all too well aware that those w co-morbidities were THE most vulnerable with the first wave of C19? Is there reason yet to believe this isn't the case w this latest wave?

I've read several articles who cite studies that show while this Delta variant is more contagious, it is not more deadly.

As with covid from the start, with people pointing out that most won't die from it, it's moot if you are one of the unlucky ones.

as long as those eligible for the vaccine refuse to get it, the Delta variant will spread and because more people will get it, a percentage of those will get very sick and some will die. in the process, Delta may mutate to another form that is even more readily transmissible and possibly more deadly. A virus wants to continue to live and will find ways of doing it. as others point out, polio, small pox, chicken pox, measles all still exist but enough people got vaccinated that the virus died from lack of hosts.

and for those people who choose not to get vaccinated, I wonder how many are still wearing a mask. I would guess most don't because how can you check?

[fishon]

We’ve gone from 14 days to flatten the curve to 14 months, to house to house, door to door searches.

Show me your papers.

I did nat see that coming.

I have nothing to fear. COVID didn’t make me sick.

[Bonnevie]

Funny you should ask. If it saves one life. What about the lives the vaccines take? What about the real health consequences some people are susceptible to? Everyone has to make their own choice to get vaccinated. CDC says there is 0.65 % mortality rate for those infected with Covid 19. Yet there are those that have died or developed severe reactions to the vaccine. How many lives lost to vaccination is acceptable to you?
F.D.A. Attaches Warning of Rare Nerve Syndrome to Johnson & Johnson Covid Vaccine (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-d-a-will-attach-warning-of-rare-nerve-syndrome-to-johnson-johnson-vaccine/ar-AAM3XQo?ocid=msedgntp&fbclid=IwAR1mMNcrgy1mmF4tbtQ1PqYya9-rQRv6IL7gpCqoaQLOQLFfvNE1CN35MTQ)

June 7th, 2021, VAERS received 5,208 reports of death (0.0017%) so you have a greater than 99% of living after getting the vaccine. so the odds favor getting a vaccine over getting covid.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I completely understand your post and agree with it. I also get numerous complaints and insults, normally from people that make the thread political, because by god they have the right to say anything they want to.

But, I still think we need to be the ones to try to tone down the discussion. "They" obviously are only interested in confrontational discusssions.

As long as "they" continue to be permitted to post confrontations rather than discussions, this entire forum will continue to be one of confrontation. "They" are in the majority in this community, both on and off line. "They" get to call the shots. Even if those shots are nasty, hate-spewing, uneducated, bigoted, and ignorant. If you dare to call "them" on it, YOU get called nasty.

Talk of the Villages IS the bully pulpit.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

June 7th, 2021, VAERS received 5,208 reports of death (0.0017%) so you have a greater than 99% of living after getting the vaccine. so the odds favor getting a vaccine over getting covid.

In addition, anyone can report to VAERS. If you got a hang-nail while taking a medicine, and report it, then "hangnails" become correlated with taking that medicine. It becomes part of the statistics.

If someone gets hit by a truck and dies of severe brain-hemorrhage, and they just got vaccinated last week, then "brain-hemorrhage" will become one of the possible correlations with the vaccine.

That's just how VAERS works. And it says so in big bold letters when you check the website. But most people ignore those big bold letters and take the information and make up their "facts" to back up their agenda by using it.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Same reason the dimwit and dimwitees aren’t getting anywhere with it. People have choices and those people who have decided not to vaccinate at this time do not want the government, who guarantees their freedom of choice, shoving it down their throats.

If I’m not mistaken, didn’t Asianthree who works in the medical field, decline the vaccinations for now?

As long as those people who are fighting for "freedom of choice" are fighting for the same freedom of a woman to choose what happens to her body, I'll respect their choice. Otherwise, no respect, and "oh well, too bad, so sad" if they get sick as a result of their choice.

[Aces4]

In addition, anyone can report to VAERS. If you got a hang-nail while taking a medicine, and report it, then "hangnails" become correlated with taking that medicine. It becomes part of the statistics.

If someone gets hit by a truck and dies of severe brain-hemorrhage, and they just got vaccinated last week, then "brain-hemorrhage" will become one of the possible correlations with the vaccine.

That's just how VAERS works. And it says so in big bold letters when you check the website. But most people ignore those big bold letters and take the information and make up their "facts" to back up their agenda by using it.

Hmmm, seems to work the same way they counted covid-19 deaths.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If the orange haired one really supports the vaccine (and he should get some credit for making that happen) why isn't he out there encouraging all the trumpers & trumpetts to get vacinated? Does he even realize that his base is dying off?

Something we agree on. The earth, as it turns out, is not flat afterall.

Halle-freakin-lujah.

[Aces4]

As long as those people who are fighting for "freedom of choice" are fighting for the same freedom of a woman to choose what happens to her body, I'll respect their choice. Otherwise, no respect, and "oh well, too bad, so sad" if they get sick as a result of their choice.

How do you equate deciding on receiving a vaccine with murdering an unborn child?

[JMintzer]

I believe you will find that is the 7-day average of daily deaths.

154 -> 1078 deaths in a week
205 -> 1435 deaths in a week (1500 seemed close enough)

It's odd that those numbers are about 50 less than what the WaPo presents. It *could* be that the WaPo accumulates on the day the deaths were reported rather than assigning them to the day they occurred.

The article states 7-day average, not 7-day "daily" average...

[JMintzer]

Only 15,000+ Covid cases reported by Florida 7/13/2021
"The state is reporting daily cases close to four times the national average...the second-highest number in the country. The state’s latest covid-19 death rate is almost double the national figure."

Florida is currently #25 in death rates nationally...

• U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/)

I can't find anything to back up or refute your 15000+ cases claim...

[JMintzer]

But as many have said, and common sense, things changed daily with the proceedings of handling of this virus....mask- no mask, distance, droplets. He's not a God, nor pretends to be....they found info and put it out there. It was ever evolving...sorry you can't open your mind, but just criticize.

Well, we now know that he purposely lied to the public, so there's that...

[JMintzer]

Oh we all know the reasoning behind all that, remember Dr Birk (sp) on 60minutes and many other news shows, the pressure to lie from T

No, he lied quite easily, on his own, without any pressure from any particular letter...

[Aces4]

No, he lied quite easily, on his own, without any pressure from any particular letter...

As does the current whatever you want to call him...

[JMintzer]

I can see a time approaching when the decision will be taken out of their hands. When the government will have to step in and mandate vaccinations. I hope not, but it looks inevitible. And that will be a major poltical shat storm.

I hope you're wrong, because that is the very sort of tyranny people have been preparing to fight against...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

No, he lied quite easily, on his own, without any pressure from any particular letter...

Dr. Birk is a woman.

She was under pressure to lie for that president.

[Aces4]

Dr. Birk is a woman.

She was under pressure to lie for that president.

Please provide all the lies she told for him. This should be interesting.

[JMintzer]

And, I am sorry that so many feel that anyone that disagrees with them is "fearful". I grow tired of this silliness. It is possible to be cautious without fear. I do not worry about having an accident every time I get into a car, but I make sure my brakes are in good order and wear a seat belt. Life is full of dangers - taking reasonable precautions does not imply fear is driving the decisions.

Tis a shame so many ignored this wisdom in the "make your home safer" thread when mentioning firearms... :icon_wink:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

How do you equate deciding on receiving a vaccine with murdering an unborn child?

If your choice to not vaccinate, causes you to get a contagious disease, and you spread it to someone who dies, they are 100% exactly equal.

Your freedom of choice has caused someone else's death. If that's okay with you, then it's okay with you. If it's not, then it isn't. There's no "this but not that" in this equation.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Please provide all the lies she told for him. This should be interesting.

I never said she lied for him. Please show me where you found "was under pressure to lie" equals "did lie" in an encyclopedia under that bridge you enjoy so much.


This should be interesting.

[JMintzer]

by that time we had heard the about the miracle drug hydroxychlorquine and using bleach, so I think she had a point.

Hydroxychloroquine did help and no one ever suggested using bleach... But you be you...

[Aces4]

If your choice to not vaccinate, causes you to get a contagious disease, and you spread it to someone who dies, they are 100% exactly equal.

Your freedom of choice has caused someone else's death. If that's okay with you, then it's okay with you. If it's not, then it isn't. There's no "this but not that" in this equation.

That has got to be the worst rationalization for murdering babies ever. If the vaccine works, who would be harmed by it? The unvaccinated have made a choice to take a risk. That child that is murdered has no options.

[Aces4]

I never said she lied for him. Please show me where you found "was under pressure to lie" equals "did lie" in an encyclopedia under that bridge you enjoy so much.


This should be interesting.

Even more interesting, what lies was she pressured into telling. You can’t have it both ways with your claim.

[JMintzer]

Something we agree on. The earth, as it turns out, is not flat afterall.

Halle-freakin-lujah.

You agree with a false premise? Great!

[Moderator]

As usual, some just can't keep from getting political or attacking others. Thread Closed.

Moderator.