Delta Impact on Herd Immunity

[Altavia]

Delta just dramatically pushed the herd immunity threshold higher.

And immunized individuals can still be carriers.

[Altavia]

COVID-19 herd immunity? It’s not going to happen, so what next?

August 3, 2021 5.55am EDT
Shabir A. Madhi,

COVID-19 herd immunity? It's not going to happen, so what next? (https://theconversation.com/covid-19-herd-immunity-its-not-going-to-happen-so-what-next-165471)

The best hope of beating the pandemic is to vaccinate as many people as soon as possible.

Any notion that COVID-19 was going to last for just a few months was very much misplaced in 2020. Especially after it was recognised that the SARS-CoV-2 virus was largely spread through the airborne route, all indications were that it would cause repeat bouts of waves. This is what happened in the flu epidemic of 1918.

Herd immunity isn’t achievable. We need to learn to live with COVID-19

In addition very few scientists predicted that we would see the type of mutations that occurred over such a short period of time. This has resulted in the virus becoming both more transmissible and more able to evade immune responses.

The evolution of the virus has been so rapid that the Delta variant, which is currently dominating the world, is at least twice as transmissible as the ancestral virus that was circulating.

What this means is that herd immunity is no longer a discussion the world should be having. We should start to avoid using that term in the context of SARS-CoV-2, because it’s not going to materialise – or is unlikely to materialise – during our lifetimes.

When politicians and others speak about herd immunity, unfortunately, they are under the misconception that the current tools we’ve got are adequate to eliminate the virus. It’s not what we have at hand right now.

Instead we should be talking about how to live with the virus. The tremendous success that’s materialised with COVID-19 vaccines allows us to do this, without actually getting into the herd immunity threshold.

Peddling the concept of herd immunity creates a misconception that we are actually going to get to a stage where this virus is going to be eliminated. That’s unlikely to happen. It will continue circulating.

There are a number of dangers in continuing to make people believe it’s possible.

Firstly, it could dent confidence in vaccines. Even if South Africa gets to its target of 67% of the population being vaccinated – as set out by the Department of Health – there will still be outbreaks of COVID-19. The result will be that people begin to doubt the benefits of being vaccinated. Also, for the now dominant Delta variant, immunity against infection (not only COVID-19 illness) would need to be closer to 84% for the “herd immunity” threshold to be reached.

Secondly, failing to face up to the reality that herd immunity can’t be achieved will mean that countries like South Africa will continue to believe that ongoing restrictions will get them there. That will compromise the lives of people on multiple fronts – including education and livelihoods.

What is herd immunity?

Herd immunity is when someone infected by the virus won’t, on average, infect another person. So you reach a state where the immunity in the population against infection by the virus is such that there are too few people in the environment for sustained onward transmission to take place to others.

This is because they’ve developed immunity against being infected, or at least have developed immunity to the extent where even if they were infected, they would be able to clear the virus very quickly and wouldn’t be able to transmit it to other people.

So herd immunity essentially means that you have brought about an absolute interruption in the chain of transmission of the virus in the population in the absence of other interventions that too could interrupt virus transmission such as wearing of face masks.

But some changes have forced a shift in our thinking about herd immunity. It’s now viewed much more as an aspiration rather than actual goal.

What’s changed

Firstly, the evolution of the virus and the mutations that have occurred.

One set of mutations made the virus much more transmissible or infectious. The Delta variant is just such an example. Initially we thought the SARS-CoV-2 reproductive rate was between 2.5 and 4. In other words, in a fully susceptible population every one person infected would on average infect about two and a half to four other people. But the Delta variant is at least twofold more transmissible. That means that the reproductive rate of the Delta variant is probably closer to six rather than three.

The second change is that the virus has shown an ability to have mutations that make it resistant to antibody neutralising activity induced by past infection from the original virus, as well as antibody responses induced by most of the current COVID-19 vaccines.

The third big issue centres on the durability of protection. Our memory responses are lasting for at least six to nine months at the moment. But that doesn’t mean that they will protect us against infection from variants that are evolving, even if such memory responses do assist in attenuating the clinical course of the infection leading to less severe COVID-19.

The fourth issue conspiring against us being able to reach a herd immunity threshold any time soon is the inequitable distribution of vaccine across the world, the slow uptake and the sluggish rollout. Unfortunately, this provides fertile ground for ongoing evolution of the virus.

No country is going to lock its borders perpetually. This means the entire global population needs to reach the same sort of threshold round about the same time. At the moment just 1% of the populations of low-income countries have been vaccinated. And 27% of the global population.

With the Delta variant, we would need to get close to 84% of the global population developing protection against infection (in the absence of non-pharmacological interventions) in as brief a period of time as possible.

Next steps

The only sustainable solution is to learn to live with the virus.

This will require ensuring that we get the majority of individuals, especially adults, and particularly those at a higher risk of developing severe COVID-19 and dying, vaccinated as quickly as possible. In my view this could be achieved in South Africa with 20 million people vaccinated – not the 40 million target set by the government. But the 20 million would need to include 90% of people above the age of 60, and 90% of people above the age of 35 who have co-morbidities.

If South Africa achieved this milestone, it could get back to a relatively normal lifestyle even with the virus continuing to circulate and causing the occasional outbreak. It would also ensure a threshold that guaranteed its healthcare systems weren’t going to be overwhelmed, and that people were not going to die in large numbers.

We are simply going to have to become comfortable with the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is going to be like one of the numerous other viruses that circulate that cause respiratory illness each day. Usually mild infections, and less often a severe disease.

So people will, unfortunately, continue dying of COVID-19, but certainly not at the magnitude that’s been seen over the past 18 months. A major advance would be for COVID-19 to be no more severe than what is seen every influenza season (10,000 to 11,000 deaths) in South Africa.

The UK experience is where we should be heading. That is getting back to a relatively normal lifestyle, provided that we’ve got a adequate number of people vaccinated, and particularly people who are at higher risk of developing severe COVID-19.

The UK is currently close to 85% of adults that have already received at least a single dose of the vaccine. As a result they’re able to remove almost all restrictions.

The UK is seeing an increase in number of cases of the Delta variant. But they’ve seen very nominal changes when it comes to hospitalisation and death. The vast majority of people (97%) who still end up being hospitalised and dying of COVID-19 in the UK are those who decided not to be vaccinated

[graciegirl]

COVID-19 herd immunity? It’s not going to happen, so what next?

August 3, 2021 5.55am EDT
Shabir A. Madhi,

COVID-19 herd immunity? It's not going to happen, so what next? (https://theconversation.com/covid-19-herd-immunity-its-not-going-to-happen-so-what-next-165471)

The best hope of beating the pandemic is to vaccinate as many people as soon as possible.

Any notion that COVID-19 was going to last for just a few months was very much misplaced in 2020. Especially after it was recognised that the SARS-CoV-2 virus was largely spread through the airborne route, all indications were that it would cause repeat bouts of waves. This is what happened in the flu epidemic of 1918.

Herd immunity isn’t achievable. We need to learn to live with COVID-19

In addition very few scientists predicted that we would see the type of mutations that occurred over such a short period of time. This has resulted in the virus becoming both more transmissible and more able to evade immune responses.

The evolution of the virus has been so rapid that the Delta variant, which is currently dominating the world, is at least twice as transmissible as the ancestral virus that was circulating.

What this means is that herd immunity is no longer a discussion the world should be having. We should start to avoid using that term in the context of SARS-CoV-2, because it’s not going to materialise – or is unlikely to materialise – during our lifetimes.

When politicians and others speak about herd immunity, unfortunately, they are under the misconception that the current tools we’ve got are adequate to eliminate the virus. It’s not what we have at hand right now.

Instead we should be talking about how to live with the virus. The tremendous success that’s materialised with COVID-19 vaccines allows us to do this, without actually getting into the herd immunity threshold.

Peddling the concept of herd immunity creates a misconception that we are actually going to get to a stage where this virus is going to be eliminated. That’s unlikely to happen. It will continue circulating.

There are a number of dangers in continuing to make people believe it’s possible.

Firstly, it could dent confidence in vaccines. Even if South Africa gets to its target of 67% of the population being vaccinated – as set out by the Department of Health – there will still be outbreaks of COVID-19. The result will be that people begin to doubt the benefits of being vaccinated. Also, for the now dominant Delta variant, immunity against infection (not only COVID-19 illness) would need to be closer to 84% for the “herd immunity” threshold to be reached.

Secondly, failing to face up to the reality that herd immunity can’t be achieved will mean that countries like South Africa will continue to believe that ongoing restrictions will get them there. That will compromise the lives of people on multiple fronts – including education and livelihoods.

What is herd immunity?

Herd immunity is when someone infected by the virus won’t, on average, infect another person. So you reach a state where the immunity in the population against infection by the virus is such that there are too few people in the environment for sustained onward transmission to take place to others.

This is because they’ve developed immunity against being infected, or at least have developed immunity to the extent where even if they were infected, they would be able to clear the virus very quickly and wouldn’t be able to transmit it to other people.

So herd immunity essentially means that you have brought about an absolute interruption in the chain of transmission of the virus in the population in the absence of other interventions that too could interrupt virus transmission such as wearing of face masks.

But some changes have forced a shift in our thinking about herd immunity. It’s now viewed much more as an aspiration rather than actual goal.

What’s changed

Firstly, the evolution of the virus and the mutations that have occurred.

One set of mutations made the virus much more transmissible or infectious. The Delta variant is just such an example. Initially we thought the SARS-CoV-2 reproductive rate was between 2.5 and 4. In other words, in a fully susceptible population every one person infected would on average infect about two and a half to four other people. But the Delta variant is at least twofold more transmissible. That means that the reproductive rate of the Delta variant is probably closer to six rather than three.

The second change is that the virus has shown an ability to have mutations that make it resistant to antibody neutralising activity induced by past infection from the original virus, as well as antibody responses induced by most of the current COVID-19 vaccines.

The third big issue centres on the durability of protection. Our memory responses are lasting for at least six to nine months at the moment. But that doesn’t mean that they will protect us against infection from variants that are evolving, even if such memory responses do assist in attenuating the clinical course of the infection leading to less severe COVID-19.

The fourth issue conspiring against us being able to reach a herd immunity threshold any time soon is the inequitable distribution of vaccine across the world, the slow uptake and the sluggish rollout. Unfortunately, this provides fertile ground for ongoing evolution of the virus.

No country is going to lock its borders perpetually. This means the entire global population needs to reach the same sort of threshold round about the same time. At the moment just 1% of the populations of low-income countries have been vaccinated. And 27% of the global population.

With the Delta variant, we would need to get close to 84% of the global population developing protection against infection (in the absence of non-pharmacological interventions) in as brief a period of time as possible.

Next steps

The only sustainable solution is to learn to live with the virus.

This will require ensuring that we get the majority of individuals, especially adults, and particularly those at a higher risk of developing severe COVID-19 and dying, vaccinated as quickly as possible. In my view this could be achieved in South Africa with 20 million people vaccinated – not the 40 million target set by the government. But the 20 million would need to include 90% of people above the age of 60, and 90% of people above the age of 35 who have co-morbidities.

If South Africa achieved this milestone, it could get back to a relatively normal lifestyle even with the virus continuing to circulate and causing the occasional outbreak. It would also ensure a threshold that guaranteed its healthcare systems weren’t going to be overwhelmed, and that people were not going to die in large numbers.

We are simply going to have to become comfortable with the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is going to be like one of the numerous other viruses that circulate that cause respiratory illness each day. Usually mild infections, and less often a severe disease.

So people will, unfortunately, continue dying of COVID-19, but certainly not at the magnitude that’s been seen over the past 18 months. A major advance would be for COVID-19 to be no more severe than what is seen every influenza season (10,000 to 11,000 deaths) in South Africa.

The UK experience is where we should be heading. That is getting back to a relatively normal lifestyle, provided that we’ve got a adequate number of people vaccinated, and particularly people who are at higher risk of developing severe COVID-19.

The UK is currently close to 85% of adults that have already received at least a single dose of the vaccine. As a result they’re able to remove almost all restrictions.

The UK is seeing an increase in number of cases of the Delta variant. But they’ve seen very nominal changes when it comes to hospitalisation and death. The vast majority of people (97%) who still end up being hospitalised and dying of COVID-19 in the UK are those who decided not to be vaccinated

Your post seems reasonable and I agree. I said to my husband that I never thought that we would see such a time, EVER.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What next?

A bunch of people die, everyone else either gets the virus or doesn't. It mutates some more, a bunch of people get sick with a variety of symptoms, some worse than others. Maybe a few people get stuck on ventilators for the rest of their lives, a couple have to get a lung removed.

Meanwhile, everyone else just carries on and lives their lives. Except without their daughter, who's dead from the virus. And without money since it's all sunk into 24/7 nursing care to keep their 40-year-old dad alive. And without their son, who came down with really bad symptoms but didn't take any precautions, and spread it to his best friend, who died of the disease. Sonny committed suicide because he couldn't live with the guilt.

Maybe some families were left intact, no losses, huzzah! But their neighbors have stopped being neighborly, their cousins are now avoiding close contact because THEY have lost friends and neighbors...a few schools have had to make adjustments because some teachers are now dead, so your kids are being educated by a new batch of teachers who have no prior experience...

You have a new mailman now, and he doesn't know that you need the mail put through the doggie door instead of the mail box over the doorbell, because some whacko down the street steals the circulars for coupons...

That's what's next. That is the new world coming. Just a few more dead people. No big deal right?

[justjim]

Unfortunately since social media became popular because of the World Wide Web (internet) and 24 hour cable became what many watch, much false information regarding just about any subject you can name has emerged. Real investigated facts and real news has almost become a thing of the past. People are gullible and you find them following charismatic media personalities who spin information to feed their own pocketbooks with thousands/millions of dollars. Conspiracy theories are the state of the art with a new one every few days. For example, as science finds more about the coronavirus and makes changes to react to the new findings, we are told that we were lied to and not to listen to the science who got it all wrong in the first place. Selfish politicians (of both parties) haven’t helped the situation either. Instead of what can I do for my country it’s what can I do for me. That said, I am confident that in the long run science will prevail and we will get back to business as usual in this great country we call the United States of America.

[Swoop]

What next?

A bunch of people die, everyone else either gets the virus or doesn't. It mutates some more, a bunch of people get sick with a variety of symptoms, some worse than others. Maybe a few people get stuck on ventilators for the rest of their lives, a couple have to get a lung removed.

Meanwhile, everyone else just carries on and lives their lives. Except without their daughter, who's dead from the virus. And without money since it's all sunk into 24/7 nursing care to keep their 40-year-old dad alive. And without their son, who came down with really bad symptoms but didn't take any precautions, and spread it to his best friend, who died of the disease. Sonny committed suicide because he couldn't live with the guilt.

Maybe some families were left intact, no losses, huzzah! But their neighbors have stopped being neighborly, their cousins are now avoiding close contact because THEY have lost friends and neighbors...a few schools have had to make adjustments because some teachers are now dead, so your kids are being educated by a new batch of teachers who have no prior experience...

You have a new mailman now, and he doesn't know that you need the mail put through the doggie door instead of the mail box over the doorbell, because some whacko down the street steals the circulars for coupons...

That's what's next. That is the new world coming. Just a few more dead people. No big deal right?
And meteoroids will strike the earth and the oxygen levels will dwindle. The plants will die and aliens will take over the planet…

[GrumpyOldMan]

What next?

A bunch of people die, everyone else either gets the virus or doesn't. It mutates some more, a bunch of people get sick with a variety of symptoms, some worse than others. Maybe a few people get stuck on ventilators for the rest of their lives, a couple have to get a lung removed.

Meanwhile, everyone else just carries on and lives their lives. Except without their daughter, who's dead from the virus. And without money since it's all sunk into 24/7 nursing care to keep their 40-year-old dad alive. And without their son, who came down with really bad symptoms but didn't take any precautions, and spread it to his best friend, who died of the disease. Sonny committed suicide because he couldn't live with the guilt.

Maybe some families were left intact, no losses, huzzah! But their neighbors have stopped being neighborly, their cousins are now avoiding close contact because THEY have lost friends and neighbors...a few schools have had to make adjustments because some teachers are now dead, so your kids are being educated by a new batch of teachers who have no prior experience...

You have a new mailman now, and he doesn't know that you need the mail put through the doggie door instead of the mail box over the doorbell, because some whacko down the street steals the circulars for coupons...

That's what's next. That is the new world coming. Just a few more dead people. No big deal right?

I hope you don't mind, I am stealing your post and spreading it. SO many focus on now and me, and ignore the ripples of their actions.

[GrumpyOldMan]

And meteoroids will strike the earth and the oxygen levels will dwindle. The plants will die and aliens will take over the planet…

It might, and NASA and others are taking steps to prevent that. But at this point, we don't really have a working solution.

However, we DO have a working solution for COVID. Well, we did until so many refused to use it, and now we have a new mutant and so, we may be back - for a while - to not having a solution to that either.

Here's a crazy idea - why don't we focus on doing what we can, and not worry about what we can't.

[Escape Artist]

So maybe we shouldn't obsess about variants because there's bound to be a lot more. Just offer a booster shot every year for the original COVID which does offer some protection against the variants. If indeed a booster is even need as they need to find out the level and strength of antibodies of those vaccinated. The clinical trials were last summer so they must be testing those individuals or you'd hope so. I haven't heard any reports yet on their findings.

[Swoop]

Delta just dramatically pushed the herd immunity threshold higher.

And immunized individuals can still be carriers.

But according to the CDC, those who have had Covid are much less likely to be reinfected. So if the Delta strain is much more contagious and less deadly, we will actually reach herd immunity quicker…

[GrumpyOldMan]

So maybe we shouldn't obsess about variants because there's bound to be a lot more. Just offer a booster shot every year for the original COVID which does offer some protection against the variants. If indeed a booster is even need as they need to find out the level and strength of antibodies of those vaccinated. The clinical trials were last summer so they must be testing those individuals or you'd hope so. I haven't heard any reports yet on their findings.

Great idea, there is NO way a variant could occur that we can't provide a booster for.

How about we try to prevent the spread to prevent the variant. That we KNOW how to do, NOW. As opposed to hoping we can come up with something maybe later.

[Swoop]

It might, and NASA and others are taking steps to prevent that. But at this point, we don't really have a working solution.

However, we DO have a working solution for COVID. Well, we did until so many refused to use it, and now we have a new mutant and so, we may be back - for a while - to not having a solution to that either.

Here's a crazy idea - why don't we focus on doing what we can, and not worry about what we can't.
Let’s look at the absurd scenario where every single American was vaccinated. The Delta variant didn’t originate here. With our open boarders, we would still be facing a variant that wasn’t prevented by the vaccines. So, since it appears that natural immunity is more effective than vaccines, just vaccinating those at risk, makes the most sense.

[graciegirl]

What next?

A bunch of people die, everyone else either gets the virus or doesn't. It mutates some more, a bunch of people get sick with a variety of symptoms, some worse than others. Maybe a few people get stuck on ventilators for the rest of their lives, a couple have to get a lung removed.

Meanwhile, everyone else just carries on and lives their lives. Except without their daughter, who's dead from the virus. And without money since it's all sunk into 24/7 nursing care to keep their 40-year-old dad alive. And without their son, who came down with really bad symptoms but didn't take any precautions, and spread it to his best friend, who died of the disease. Sonny committed suicide because he couldn't live with the guilt.

Maybe some families were left intact, no losses, huzzah! But their neighbors have stopped being neighborly, their cousins are now avoiding close contact because THEY have lost friends and neighbors...a few schools have had to make adjustments because some teachers are now dead, so your kids are being educated by a new batch of teachers who have no prior experience...

You have a new mailman now, and he doesn't know that you need the mail put through the doggie door instead of the mail box over the doorbell, because some whacko down the street steals the circulars for coupons...

That's what's next. That is the new world coming. Just a few more dead people. No big deal right?

All the King's horses and all the King's men, couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.

Sometimes there is deep wisdom in nursery rhymes that are very old.

Sometimes there is NO answer to huge problems.

You CAN lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Not everyone is given at birth all the same abilities to perceive and understand.

We are all created valuable, (at least in MY philosophy) but we are not all created equal.

And again, Sometimes no matter how much thinkers think, and the worlds thinkers are all focused on this problem, and just like Climate Change/Global Warming, there is nothing at this time that can immediately and effectively make things better. If there were, it would be happening.

[Two Bills]

Come back in about two years, and you will have a definite answer to all your questions.
In the meantime, carry on regardless.

[Bjeanj]

Leave the unvaccinated alone. It should take care of itself.

[Dana1963]

Unfortunately since social media became popular because of the World Wide Web (internet) and 24 hour cable became what many watch, much false information regarding just about any subject you can name has emerged. Real investigated facts and real news has almost become a thing of the past. People are gullible and you find them following charismatic media personalities who spin information to feed their own pocketbooks with thousands/millions of dollars. Conspiracy theories are the state of the art with a new one every few days. For example, as science finds more about the coronavirus and makes changes to react to the new findings, we are told that we were lied to and not to listen to the science who got it all wrong in the first place. Selfish politicians (of both parties) haven’t helped the situation either. Instead of what can I do for my country it’s what can I do for me. That said, I am confident that in the long run science will prevail and we will get back to business as usual in this great country we call the United States of America.
People just became more gullible and believe what they feel convenient with. It’s quite sad the older on gets they are more set in their beliefs even if they might be proven wrong facts mean nothing.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

So maybe we shouldn't obsess about variants because there's bound to be a lot more. Just offer a booster shot every year for the original COVID which does offer some protection against the variants. If indeed a booster is even need as they need to find out the level and strength of antibodies of those vaccinated. The clinical trials were last summer so they must be testing those individuals or you'd hope so. I haven't heard any reports yet on their findings.

The shots don't help prevent the spread, if the majority of the population refuse to get them. But our tax dollars, and health insurance premiums, DO pay for those who refuse to get the shots and end up sick and unable to pay the bill.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I hope you don't mind, I am stealing your post and spreading it. SO many focus on now and me, and ignore the ripples of their actions.

You may not steal it! But you may use it!

[Altavia]

The war has changed...

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/8a726408-07bd-46bd-a945-3af0ae2f3c37/note/57c98604-3b54-44f0-8b44-b148d8f75165.#page=1

Summary
▪ Delta is different from previous strains – Highly contagious
– Likely more severe
– Breakthrough infections may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases
▪ Vaccines prevent >90% of severe disease, but may be less effective at preventing
infection or transmission
– Therefore, more breakthrough and more community spread despite
vaccination
▪ NPIs are essential to prevent continued spread with current vaccine coverage

[Topspinmo]

Delta just dramatically pushed the herd immunity threshold higher.
And immunized individuals can still be carriers.

IMO Only thing that’s going to stop this virus is when the virus plays itself out. It never should of made the jump to humans. Humans caused this.

[Swoop]

The shots don't help prevent the spread, if the majority of the population refuse to get them. But our tax dollars, and health insurance premiums, DO pay for those who refuse to get the shots and end up sick and unable to pay the bill.

Our health tax dollars also pay for those who overeat and don’t exercise. They pay for those who smoke. Did you know that smoking accounts for roughly 480,000 deaths per year - every year…

[JMintzer]

The shots don't help prevent the spread, if the majority of the population refuse to get them. But our tax dollars, and health insurance premiums, DO pay for those who refuse to get the shots and end up sick and unable to pay the bill.

Well, the "majority" of the population HAS been vaccinated (not including children, for which the vaccine has not yet been approved), so there's that...

As of 08/02/2021 - 58.4% have received at least 1 shot, 50.2 have received both shots...

[lkagele]

IMO Only thing that’s going to stop this virus is when the virus plays itself out. It never should of made the jump to humans. Humans caused this.

Disagree and agree.

Disagree. This virus will never play itself out. It's going to act like the flu and the common cold. Different strains will evolve making vaccines and natural immunities less than 100% effective. I think the current concern about the deadliness is way overrated but the good news is the mutations will become less deadly over time.

Agree. Humans did cause this. Chinese humans. I still don't understand why our country as a whole is not in agreement and totally pi**ed off at the CCP. You can point to Trump, Fauci, conservative media, liberal media, blue states, red states, pro maskers, anti maskers or whatever. The fact of the matter is, the CCP allowed dangerous gain of function research in a substandard lab that led to the virus escaping. THAT is where the blame lies. It's time we stop pointing fingers at each other and collectively start going after the true culprit.

[joseppe]

Segregation of vaccinated and non-vaccinated may be forthcoming.

[Sheltie-Lover]

Who cares where it came from. It is here now so as one smart man "Grumpy"just said we have the tools now. Get vaccinated. Real simple

[Girlcopper]

Your post seems reasonable and I agree. I said to my husband that I never thought that we would see such a time, EVER.
Yep. I agree its right on point but Im sure some naysayers will pipe in

[GeriS]

It might, and NASA and others are taking steps to prevent that. But at this point, we don't really have a working solution.

However, we DO have a working solution for COVID. Well, we did until so many refused to use it, and now we have a new mutant and so, we may be back - for a while - to not having a solution to that either.

Here's a crazy idea - why don't we focus on doing what we can, and not worry about what we can't.
We have a solution for covid but it has been kept from us...HCQ & Ivermectin. Many doctors attest to this. Look us Front Line Doctors, Natural News and so much more if you would just look.

[GeriS]

It might, and NASA and others are taking steps to prevent that. But at this point, we don't really have a working solution.

However, we DO have a working solution for COVID. Well, we did until so many refused to use it, and now we have a new mutant and so, we may be back - for a while - to not having a solution to that either.

Here's a crazy idea - why don't we focus on doing what we can, and not worry about what we can't.
“And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” – Revelation 13:17

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time. Conscientious objectors to vaccination should stand alone, if need be, against a whole world, in defense of their conviction.” – Mahatma Gandhi

[Luggage]

Originally I would have thought it was an accidental release of a virus, now with the variety is happening Delta v and lambda I tend to think it was a military research lab but again that's only my opinion. Às a science fiction reader, I certainly now believe that we're going to have masks for the rest of our lives as this is going to become much more of a situation than just a common cold coming out of China every year and I think this will be one more nail in the coffin of expenses that the US budget has to incur. On a positive note I am pretty sure that we have excellent pharmacological research companies in the US and elsewhere

[MandoMan]

Delta just dramatically pushed the herd immunity threshold higher.

And immunized individuals can still be carriers.

Just to cheer you up, take note of the Lambda variant, for which the vaccine seems not to work or not to work as well. I read yesterday in Newsweek online that it’s the dominant form in Peru, and there are about a thousand cases in the US so far. Don’t throw away those masks and gloves or that hand sanitizer. What if new variants keep popping up and shutting us down for the next century? What if a new variant also has a much higher death rate?

[Robnlaura]

COVID-19 herd immunity? It’s not going to happen, so what next?

August 3, 2021 5.55am EDT
Shabir A. Madhi,

COVID-19 herd immunity? It's not going to happen, so what next? (https://theconversation.com/covid-19-herd-immunity-its-not-

going-to-happen-so-what-next-165471)

The best hope of beating the pandemic is to vaccinate as many people as soon as possible.

Any notion that COVID-19 was going to last for just a few months was very much misplaced in 2020. Especially after it was recognised that the SARS-CoV-2 virus was largely spread through the airborne route, all indications were that it would cause repeat bouts of waves. This is what happened in the flu epidemic of 1918.

Herd immunity isn’t achievable. We need to learn to live with COVID-19

In addition very few scientists predicted that we would see the type of mutations that occurred over such a short period of time. This has resulted in the virus becoming both more transmissible and more able to evade immune responses.

The evolution of the virus has been so rapid that the Delta variant, which is currently dominating the world, is at least twice as transmissible as the ancestral virus that was circulating.

What this means is that herd immunity is no longer a discussion the world should be having. We should start to avoid using that term in the context of SARS-CoV-2, because it’s not going to materialise – or is unlikely to materialise – during our lifetimes.

When politicians and others speak about herd immunity, unfortunately, they are under the misconception that the current tools we’ve got are adequate to eliminate the virus. It’s not what we have at hand right now.

Instead we should be talking about how to live with the virus. The tremendous success that’s materialised with COVID-19 vaccines allows us to do this, without actually getting into the herd immunity threshold.

Peddling the concept of herd immunity creates a misconception that we are actually going to get to a stage where this virus is going to be eliminated. That’s unlikely to happen. It will continue circulating.

There are a number of dangers in continuing to make people believe it’s possible.

Firstly, it could dent confidence in vaccines. Even if South Africa gets to its target of 67% of the population being vaccinated – as set out by the Department of Health – there will still be outbreaks of COVID-19. The result will be that people begin to doubt the benefits of being vaccinated. Also, for the now dominant Delta variant, immunity against infection (not only COVID-19 illness) would need to be closer to 84% for the “herd immunity” threshold to be reached.

Secondly, failing to face up to the reality that herd immunity can’t be achieved will mean that countries like South Africa will continue to believe that ongoing restrictions will get them there. That will compromise the lives of people on multiple fronts – including education and livelihoods.

What is herd immunity?

Herd immunity is when someone infected by the virus won’t, on average, infect another person. So you reach a state where the immunity in the population against infection by the virus is such that there are too few people in the environment for sustained onward transmission to take place to others.

This is because they’ve developed immunity against being infected, or at least have developed immunity to the extent where even if they were infected, they would be able to clear the virus very quickly and wouldn’t be able to transmit it to other people.

So herd immunity essentially means that you have brought about an absolute interruption in the chain of transmission of the virus in the population in the absence of other interventions that too could interrupt virus transmission such as wearing of face masks.

But some changes have forced a shift in our thinking about herd immunity. It’s now viewed much more as an aspiration rather than actual goal.

What’s changed

Firstly, the evolution of the virus and the mutations that have occurred.

One set of mutations made the virus much more transmissible or infectious. The Delta variant is just such an example. Initially we thought the SARS-CoV-2 reproductive rate was between 2.5 and 4. In other words, in a fully susceptible population every one person infected would on average infect about two and a half to four other people. But the Delta variant is at least twofold more transmissible. That means that the reproductive rate of the Delta variant is probably closer to six rather than three.

The second change is that the virus has shown an ability to have mutations that make it resistant to antibody neutralising activity induced by past infection from the original virus, as well as antibody responses induced by most of the current COVID-19 vaccines.

The third big issue centres on the durability of protection. Our memory responses are lasting for at least six to nine months at the moment. But that doesn’t mean that they will protect us against infection from variants that are evolving, even if such memory responses do assist in attenuating the clinical course of the infection leading to less severe COVID-19.

The fourth issue conspiring against us being able to reach a herd immunity threshold any time soon is the inequitable distribution of vaccine across the world, the slow uptake and the sluggish rollout. Unfortunately, this provides fertile ground for ongoing evolution of the virus.

No country is going to lock its borders perpetually. This means the entire global population needs to reach the same sort of threshold round about the same time. At the moment just 1% of the populations of low-income countries have been vaccinated. And 27% of the global population.

With the Delta variant, we would need to get close to 84% of the global population developing protection against infection (in the absence of non-pharmacological interventions) in as brief a period of time as possible.

Next steps

The only sustainable solution is to learn to live with the virus.

This will require ensuring that we get the majority of individuals, especially adults, and particularly those at a higher risk of developing severe COVID-19 and dying, vaccinated as quickly as possible. In my view this could be achieved in South Africa with 20 million people vaccinated – not the 40 million target set by the government. But the 20 million would need to include 90% of people above the age of 60, and 90% of people above the age of 35 who have co-morbidities.

If South Africa achieved this milestone, it could get back to a relatively normal lifestyle even with the virus continuing to circulate and causing the occasional outbreak. It would also ensure a threshold that guaranteed its healthcare systems weren’t going to be overwhelmed, and that people were not going to die in large numbers.

We are simply going to have to become comfortable with the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is going to be like one of the numerous other viruses that circulate that cause respiratory illness each day. Usually mild infections, and less often a severe disease.

So people will, unfortunately, continue dying of COVID-19, but certainly not at the magnitude that’s been seen over the past 18 months. A major advance would be for COVID-19 to be no more severe than what is seen every influenza season (10,000 to 11,000 deaths) in South Africa.

The UK experience is where we should be heading. That is getting back to a relatively normal lifestyle, provided that we’ve got a adequate number of people vaccinated, and particularly people who are at higher risk of developing severe COVID-19.

The UK is currently close to 85% of adults that have already received at least a single dose of the vaccine. As a result they’re able to remove almost all restrictions.

The UK is seeing an increase in number of cases of the Delta variant. But they’ve seen very nominal changes when it comes to hospitalisation and death. The vast majority of people (97%) who still end up being hospitalised and dying of COVID-19 in the UK are those who decided not to be vaccinated
Ons vir jou suid afrika
South Africa has unique challenges superstition is a big big factor 70% of people missed their vaccine appointments in South Africa alone it will be a long long haul to get to herd immunity

[CFrance]

“And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” – Revelation 13:17

“Vaccination is a barbarous practice and one of the most fatal of all the delusions current in our time. Conscientious objectors to vaccination should stand alone, if need be, against a whole world, in defense of their conviction.” – Mahatma Gandhi
The first is cherry picking out of the bible--and not very relevant to the current situation--to suit one's own belief.


The second is a faith-based opinion that has nothing to do with science, from one of the original anti-vaxxers, talking about small pox vaccination. A hundred--hundred!-- years ago. Opinions and faith-based ideas that differ from what's empirically established is not valid science.

[golfing eagles]

We have a solution for covid but it has been kept from us...HCQ & Ivermectin. Many doctors attest to this. Look us Front Line Doctors, Natural News and so much more if you would just look.

This post would be absolutely correct, IF you just substitute the word "quacks" for "doctors"

[toeser]

COVID-19 herd immunity? It’s not going to happen, so what next?

August 3, 2021 5.55am EDT
Shabir A. Madhi,

COVID-19 herd immunity? It's not going to happen, so what next? (https://theconversation.com/covid-19-herd-immunity-its-not-going-to-happen-so-what-next-165471)

The best hope of beating the pandemic is to vaccinate as many people as soon as possible.

Any notion that COVID-19 was going to last for just a few months was very much misplaced in 2020. Especially after it was recognised that the SARS-CoV-2 virus was largely spread through the airborne route, all indications were that it would cause repeat bouts of waves. This is what happened in the flu epidemic of 1918.

Herd immunity isn’t achievable. We need to learn to live with COVID-19

In addition very few scientists predicted that we would see the type of mutations that occurred over such a short period of time. This has resulted in the virus becoming both more transmissible and more able to evade immune responses.

The evolution of the virus has been so rapid that the Delta variant, which is currently dominating the world, is at least twice as transmissible as the ancestral virus that was circulating.

What this means is that herd immunity is no longer a discussion the world should be having. We should start to avoid using that term in the context of SARS-CoV-2, because it’s not going to materialise – or is unlikely to materialise – during our lifetimes.

When politicians and others speak about herd immunity, unfortunately, they are under the misconception that the current tools we’ve got are adequate to eliminate the virus. It’s not what we have at hand right now.

Instead we should be talking about how to live with the virus. The tremendous success that’s materialised with COVID-19 vaccines allows us to do this, without actually getting into the herd immunity threshold.

Peddling the concept of herd immunity creates a misconception that we are actually going to get to a stage where this virus is going to be eliminated. That’s unlikely to happen. It will continue circulating.

There are a number of dangers in continuing to make people believe it’s possible.

Firstly, it could dent confidence in vaccines. Even if South Africa gets to its target of 67% of the population being vaccinated – as set out by the Department of Health – there will still be outbreaks of COVID-19. The result will be that people begin to doubt the benefits of being vaccinated. Also, for the now dominant Delta variant, immunity against infection (not only COVID-19 illness) would need to be closer to 84% for the “herd immunity” threshold to be reached.

Secondly, failing to face up to the reality that herd immunity can’t be achieved will mean that countries like South Africa will continue to believe that ongoing restrictions will get them there. That will compromise the lives of people on multiple fronts – including education and livelihoods.

What is herd immunity?

Herd immunity is when someone infected by the virus won’t, on average, infect another person. So you reach a state where the immunity in the population against infection by the virus is such that there are too few people in the environment for sustained onward transmission to take place to others.

This is because they’ve developed immunity against being infected, or at least have developed immunity to the extent where even if they were infected, they would be able to clear the virus very quickly and wouldn’t be able to transmit it to other people.

So herd immunity essentially means that you have brought about an absolute interruption in the chain of transmission of the virus in the population in the absence of other interventions that too could interrupt virus transmission such as wearing of face masks.

But some changes have forced a shift in our thinking about herd immunity. It’s now viewed much more as an aspiration rather than actual goal.

What’s changed

Firstly, the evolution of the virus and the mutations that have occurred.

One set of mutations made the virus much more transmissible or infectious. The Delta variant is just such an example. Initially we thought the SARS-CoV-2 reproductive rate was between 2.5 and 4. In other words, in a fully susceptible population every one person infected would on average infect about two and a half to four other people. But the Delta variant is at least twofold more transmissible. That means that the reproductive rate of the Delta variant is probably closer to six rather than three.

The second change is that the virus has shown an ability to have mutations that make it resistant to antibody neutralising activity induced by past infection from the original virus, as well as antibody responses induced by most of the current COVID-19 vaccines.

The third big issue centres on the durability of protection. Our memory responses are lasting for at least six to nine months at the moment. But that doesn’t mean that they will protect us against infection from variants that are evolving, even if such memory responses do assist in attenuating the clinical course of the infection leading to less severe COVID-19.

The fourth issue conspiring against us being able to reach a herd immunity threshold any time soon is the inequitable distribution of vaccine across the world, the slow uptake and the sluggish rollout. Unfortunately, this provides fertile ground for ongoing evolution of the virus.

No country is going to lock its borders perpetually. This means the entire global population needs to reach the same sort of threshold round about the same time. At the moment just 1% of the populations of low-income countries have been vaccinated. And 27% of the global population.

With the Delta variant, we would need to get close to 84% of the global population developing protection against infection (in the absence of non-pharmacological interventions) in as brief a period of time as possible.

Next steps

The only sustainable solution is to learn to live with the virus.

This will require ensuring that we get the majority of individuals, especially adults, and particularly those at a higher risk of developing severe COVID-19 and dying, vaccinated as quickly as possible. In my view this could be achieved in South Africa with 20 million people vaccinated – not the 40 million target set by the government. But the 20 million would need to include 90% of people above the age of 60, and 90% of people above the age of 35 who have co-morbidities.

If South Africa achieved this milestone, it could get back to a relatively normal lifestyle even with the virus continuing to circulate and causing the occasional outbreak. It would also ensure a threshold that guaranteed its healthcare systems weren’t going to be overwhelmed, and that people were not going to die in large numbers.

We are simply going to have to become comfortable with the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is going to be like one of the numerous other viruses that circulate that cause respiratory illness each day. Usually mild infections, and less often a severe disease.

So people will, unfortunately, continue dying of COVID-19, but certainly not at the magnitude that’s been seen over the past 18 months. A major advance would be for COVID-19 to be no more severe than what is seen every influenza season (10,000 to 11,000 deaths) in South Africa.

The UK experience is where we should be heading. That is getting back to a relatively normal lifestyle, provided that we’ve got a adequate number of people vaccinated, and particularly people who are at higher risk of developing severe COVID-19.

The UK is currently close to 85% of adults that have already received at least a single dose of the vaccine. As a result they’re able to remove almost all restrictions.

The UK is seeing an increase in number of cases of the Delta variant. But they’ve seen very nominal changes when it comes to hospitalisation and death. The vast majority of people (97%) who still end up being hospitalised and dying of COVID-19 in the UK are those who decided not to be vaccinated


I accept the premise of your post which is why I simply do not understand our government's lack of interest in therapeutics? Many doctors have written that they have had considerable success with new and existing drugs in the treatment of COVID, yet I have also read that hospitals routinely are not using them. Why? I know some people are down on any kind of treatment because an unnamed former president suggested some, but that is not an intelligent way to make decisions.

If we accept that this virus is going to be around from a long time to forever, let's embrace finding effective ways of treating it.

[ffresh]

Segregation of vaccinated and non-vaccinated may be forthcoming.

A New State of Segregation: Vaccine Cards Are Just the Beginning - LewRockwell (https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/08/no_author/a-new-state-of-segregation-vaccine-cards-are-just-the-beginning/)

[Gray lady of the sea]

Thank you so much for your post. I couldn’t agree more.

[G.R.I.T.S.]

Delta just dramatically pushed the herd immunity threshold higher.

And immunized individuals can still be carriers.

Florida: 95% of hospitalizations -Unvaccinated.
100 deaths: almost all -unvaccinated.
Vaccines: not 100% but upwards of 90% effective in preventing infection and offer protection in the event of infection.

[CFrance]

Thank you so much for your post. I couldn’t agree more.
Which post... Who is being thanked?

[msu69er]

The case rate among fully vaccinated is very, very low.

COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States | KFF (https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/)

To quote from the above link:

Overall, we find that:

Half of states (25) report some data on COVID-19 breakthrough events (see Table 1). Twenty-four provide data on breakthrough cases, 19 on hospitalizations and on deaths.
Fifteen of these states regularly update these data, often on a weekly basis. The rest use a different frequency, have one-time reports, have stopped updating, or have an unclear reporting frequency.
The data reported from these states indicate that breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are extremely rare events among those who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 (see Figure 1). The rate of breakthrough cases reported among those fully vaccinated is well below 1% in all reporting states, ranging from 0.01% in Connecticut to 0.29% in Alaska.
The hospitalization rate among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 ranged from effectively zero (0.00%) in California, Delaware, D.C., Indiana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Vermont, and Virginia to 0.06% in Arkansas. (Note: Hospitalization may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)
The rates of death among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 were even lower, effectively zero (0.00%) in all but two reporting states, Arkansas and Michigan where they were 0.01%. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)

The surge in COVID is occurring among the unvaccinated.

The solution to COVID, and getting back to life as “normal” is: Get vaccinated.

[Altavia]

Just to cheer you up, take note of the Lambda variant, for which the vaccine seems not to work or not to work as well. I read yesterday in Newsweek online that it’s the dominant form in Peru, and there are about a thousand cases in the US so far. Don’t throw away those masks and gloves or that hand sanitizer. What if new variants keep popping up and shutting us down for the next century? What if a new variant also has a much higher death rate?

A Doomsday COVID Variant Worse Than Delta and Lambda May Be Coming, Scientists Say (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-doomsday-covid-variant-worse-than-delta-and-lambda-may-be-coming-scientists-say/ar-AAMVfDw?ocid=uxbndlbing)

[oneclickplus]

Delta just dramatically pushed the herd immunity threshold higher.

And immunized individuals can still be carriers.

Since all (vaccinated or not) are now seen as major spreaders of the contagious Delta variant, the only differentiator is who gets sick. Why are you (no one specific; just the reader in general) all worried about those not willing to get vaccinated (me and millions of others)? It's not like the unvaccinated are a special risk to anyone. Your fellow vaccinated citizen is just as likely to be infected and contagious as all the talking heads are saying right now.

All you vaccinated folk can infect each other without any help from me or others. You can also catch and spread the virus to all the "vulnerable" population (elderly, sick, immune compromised, etc) all by yourselves.

So, why the passports? Lockdowns? Masks? F*cking the economy up? Now, it's even move obvious that it's all about control. The only people at risk are those CHOOSING not to get vaccinated. Let me take my risk. Don't worry about me. Go about your lives.

It would now seem, given the current parameters, that we should just put COVID-19 on ignore. According to the experts, there is no reason to ask anyone "are you vaccinated?" as your behavior should be the same no matter what the answer. The unwashed masses are not more likely to be infected / contagious / dangerous than all those who chose the path of putting an experimental cocktail in their arm (twice).

It boils down to this fact: The various rules then are simply to coerce vaccination.

[JMintzer]

Florida: 95% of hospitalizations -Unvaccinated.
100 deaths: almost all -unvaccinated.
Vaccines: not 100% but upwards of 90% effective in preventing infection and offer protection in the event of infection.

Not just FL. Pretty much the same #s Nationally...

[Swoop]

A Doomsday COVID Variant Worse Than Delta and Lambda May Be Coming, Scientists Say (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-doomsday-covid-variant-worse-than-delta-and-lambda-may-be-coming-scientists-say/ar-AAMVfDw?ocid=uxbndlbing)

This quote is taken from the link you provided: “He adds that his team's analysis shows that almost every single one of the 100 million unvaccinated Americans who hasn't had COVID-19 yet will likely get it in the coming months”.
Based on that, we will achieve herd immunity pretty quickly…

[MaryShields]

Your post seems reasonable and I agree. I said to my husband that I never thought that we would see such a time, EVER.

Very good post. I totally agree- we need to learn to live with the virus. Just like we live with the flu. There will be people who succumb to it as with any other virus. All measures are in place to protect us. Time to get back to normal life.

[Gizemo33]

Get the shots and we will get to Herd immunity quicker.

[GeriS]

The first is cherry picking out of the bible--and not very relevant to the current situation--to suit one's own belief.


The second is a faith-based opinion that has nothing to do with science, from one of the original anti-vaxxers, talking about small pox vaccination. A hundred--hundred!-- years ago. Opinions and faith-based ideas that differ from what's empirically established is not valid science.

The FDA admits the test was developed without isolated covid samples for test calibration, effectively admitting it's testing something else. Also, the creator of the PCR test has been on several videos stating that it does not work to test covid as it has never been isolated.

[GeriS]

This quote is taken from the link you provided: “He adds that his team's analysis shows that almost every single one of the 100 million unvaccinated Americans who hasn't had COVID-19 yet will likely get it in the coming months”.
Based on that, we will achieve herd immunity pretty quickly…
Via the words of the CDC's own director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, vaccines are now failing, and vaccinated people may now carry higher viral loads than unvaccinated people, contributing to the spread of covid.
The vaccine hoax is now collapsing as vaccinated people are now catching the "delta" variant and spreading it to other vaccinated people. Even worse, the vaxxed are the "super-breeders" who are incubating yet more dangerous vaccine-immune covid mutations.
Thus, people who signed up to be vaccinated not only got played by the CDC, they are now the super-spreaders and super-breeders who are worsening the entire pandemic.

[golfing eagles]

Via the words of the CDC's own director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, vaccines are now failing, and vaccinated people may now carry higher viral loads than unvaccinated people, contributing to the spread of covid.
The vaccine hoax is now collapsing as vaccinated people are now catching the "delta" variant and spreading it to other vaccinated people. Even worse, the vaxxed are the "super-breeders" who are incubating yet more dangerous vaccine-immune covid mutations.
Thus, people who signed up to be vaccinated not only got played by the CDC, they are now the super-spreaders and super-breeders who are worsening the entire pandemic.

That nonsense doesn't even rate a reply
And please stop posting this garbage, there may be a few naive members who might actually believe this crock

[Bill14564]

Since all (vaccinated or not) are now seen as major spreaders of the contagious Delta variant, the only differentiator is who gets sick. Why are you (no one specific; just the reader in general) all worried about those not willing to get vaccinated (me and millions of others)? It's not like the unvaccinated are a special risk to anyone. Your fellow vaccinated citizen is just as likely to be infected and contagious as all the talking heads are saying right now.

All you vaccinated folk can infect each other without any help from me or others. You can also catch and spread the virus to all the "vulnerable" population (elderly, sick, immune compromised, etc) all by yourselves.

So, why the passports? Lockdowns? Masks? F*cking the economy up? Now, it's even move obvious that it's all about control. The only people at risk are those CHOOSING not to get vaccinated. Let me take my risk. Don't worry about me. Go about your lives.

It would now seem, given the current parameters, that we should just put COVID-19 on ignore. According to the experts, there is no reason to ask anyone "are you vaccinated?" as your behavior should be the same no matter what the answer. The unwashed masses are not more likely to be infected / contagious / dangerous than all those who chose the path of putting an experimental cocktail in their arm (twice).

It boils down to this fact: The various rules then are simply to coerce vaccination.

Are you intentionally misinterpreting the data? Vaccinated ARE NOT seen as major spreaders of Covid. They MAY be able to spread in RARE cases but even that is speculation.

I am worried about the unvaccinated and the spread because of the impact on the emergency services and the impact on those that cannot be vaccinated. Full hospitals and emergency rooms means fewer resources available for those coming in for something other than Covid. Emergencies will continue to happen but there may not be room at the inn due to the number of unvaccinated in the beds.

Second, there are some who cannot be vaccinated for valid health reasons. Those unfortunate few are under continued risk due to the number of unvaccinated potentially spreading the virus. If the unvaccinated wore masks as they should then that would decrease the risk, but experience has shown that they won't. If everyone who was eligible got the vaccination then there would be 100 million or so fewer potential carriers walking around threatening the lives of those who cannot be vaccinated.

[KRMACK55]

Unfortunately since social media became popular because of the World Wide Web (internet) and 24 hour cable became what many watch, much false information regarding just about any subject you can name has emerged. Real investigated facts and real news has almost become a thing of the past. People are gullible and you find them following charismatic media personalities who spin information to feed their own pocketbooks with thousands/millions of dollars. Conspiracy theories are the state of the art with a new one every few days. For example, as science finds more about the coronavirus and makes changes to react to the new findings, we are told that we were lied to and not to listen to the science who got it all wrong in the first place. Selfish politicians (of both parties) haven’t helped the situation either. Instead of what can I do for my country it’s what can I do for me. That said, I am confident that in the long run science will prevail and we will get back to business as usual in this great country we call the United States of America.
Well said

[Bucco]

The FDA admits the test was developed without isolated covid samples for test calibration, effectively admitting it's testing something else. Also, the creator of the PCR test has been on several videos stating that it does not work to test covid as it has never been isolated.

“Social media users have been sharing a quote attributed to the inventor of the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) test, currently being used to detect COVID-19, which says “PCR tests cannot detect free infectious viruses at all”. This quote appears not to be a direct quote from the inventor, Kary Mullis, has lost some context and does not mean COVID-19 testing is fraudulent, as suggested by some social media posts.

The posts have been shared over 1,000 times on Facebook (here , here , here).

The post begins with the words “COVID-19 TEST a FRAUD?”, then introduces the alleged quote from Mullis, who invented the PCR method in 1985 and was recognized for this achievement by being awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1993 (here).

However, the quote is actually from an article written by John Lauritsen in December 1996 about HIV and AIDS, not COVID-19 (here).

The context around the quote shows Lauritsen is not saying PCR tests do not work. Instead, he is clarifying that PCR identifies substances qualitatively not quantitatively, detecting the genetic sequences of viruses, but not the viruses themselves: “PCR is intended to identify substances qualitatively, but by its very nature is unsuited for estimating numbers.

Fact check: Inventor of method used to test for COVID-19 didn’t say it can’t be used in virus detection | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pcr/fact-check-inventor-of-method-used-to-test-for-covid-19-didnt-say-it-cant-be-used-in-virus-detection-idUSKBN24420X)

Fact check: This CDC document does not say that that SARS-CoV-2 doesn’t exist | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-cdc/fact-check-this-cdc-document-does-not-say-that-that-sars-cov-2-doesnt-exist-idUSKBN27633R)

[GrumpyOldMan]

Catching up on posts this morning, and I have to wonder, does anyone know how many heart attacks we have to have before we reach heart attack herd immunity. I mean it is frequently how many people actually die of heart attacks compared to wild fake claims of how many people die from COVID.

I think the government should explain why they are not telling how to reach heart attack herd immunity.

[MDLNB]

It might, and NASA and others are taking steps to prevent that. But at this point, we don't really have a working solution.

However, we DO have a working solution for COVID. Well, we did until so many refused to use it, and now we have a new mutant and so, we may be back - for a while - to not having a solution to that either.

Here's a crazy idea - why don't we focus on doing what we can, and not worry about what we can't.


No one escapes this life, alive. You can use all the makeup and botox you want and look young, but you ain't young and will DIE eventually. If it ain't COVID it's war or terrorism or a building collapse.

[GrumpyOldMan]

No one escapes this life, alive. You can use all the makeup and botox you want and look young, but you ain't young and will DIE eventually. If it ain't COVID it's war or terrorism or a building collapse.

I agree NO ONE gets out of this alive, so why bother trying.

Let's close all the hospitals, no more bypass operations, no more treatments for any diseases are allowed. Why bother, better to just let them all die and make more room for the rest of us.

Let's remove ALL the stop signs and traffic lights.

And we can save all that money we spend trying to keep food safe.

There is no end to ways we can save money and stress, just let everyone die.

Is it okay if your grandchildren go first? I mean they are going to die anyway.

[BigSteph]

I'm new to the Villages.

Wow, the level of discourse here is surprising. I suppose I thought it was limited to the very young and young on social media.

I have a very religious friend who sees the world from the teachings of the Bible and the sermons on Sunday and Wednesday. There is no debate, so we never debate.

Some people deny a creator and other are sure of it.

Some people believe a person is born gay, others believe it is a choice.

Some people believe Trump is the best political leader ever, and others do not. Some in the same party do not.

Some believe in trying a vaccination to stem off potential death, others do not.

In none of the cases above, do I think I can convince you to change a belief by simple argument, regardless how compelling I feel it is.

Over time and through observation, I have changed my opinion on things I once disbelieved or denied.

I don't think there is a quick fix or a pithy factoid that will convince people to change their views on Covid and the Vaccine.

I got the vaccine at the first opportunity and I was aware of the emergency authorization. I made that decision for myself and cannot make it for others. I won't try to convince you one way or the other -- for one, I'm no expert, and two, you don't really care what I think.

[MDLNB]

70.1% of Americans have at least one shot of the vaccination as of 28 Jul. -- CDC.
CDC demographics shows that the majority of those that do not yet have at least one shot of the vaccination are either under the age of 12 or minorities. Minorities are the largest group of hold outs due to being told not to trust the vaccination last year.
I believe that COVID originated in the U.S. and was sent to China for experimentation. Easy to blame China but we are probably just as guilty for this mess. My opinion just like every one of the other posts on here.
Time to quit blaming your neighbors and just get on with you life. I plan to regardless of what you wish to do. If you don't trust your neighbor then wear your mask. If you don't trust your vaccination then wear your mask. I don't wear a mask and no one has gotten sick around me so don't blame me. If you do you must not be wearing your mask, right?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Via the words of the CDC's own director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, vaccines are now failing, and vaccinated people may now carry higher viral loads than unvaccinated people, contributing to the spread of covid.
The vaccine hoax is now collapsing as vaccinated people are now catching the "delta" variant and spreading it to other vaccinated people. Even worse, the vaxxed are the "super-breeders" who are incubating yet more dangerous vaccine-immune covid mutations.
Thus, people who signed up to be vaccinated not only got played by the CDC, they are now the super-spreaders and super-breeders who are worsening the entire pandemic.


What a comment - just WOW.

First, you partially quote the CDC to support your position - ie. quote out of context. They said the vaccination is failing to prevent the DELTA variant.

Then in the same paragraph, you LEAP to the "vaccine is a HOAX".

The vaccine is FAILING with DELTA because we failed to get enough people vaccinated soon enough to stop the mutation.

The vaccine is NOT a hoax.

99% of people being admitted to hospitals are not vaccinated. Maybe, all the vaccinated people just prefer to die at home? Or better yet, everyone all over the world is just lying.

At least we know that "CIVID will magically disappear in April"

[biker1]

I am not sure who you are referring to as "we". The Delta variant was first identified in India. Only about 25% of the world has been vaccinated. This would suggest that mutations, such as the Delta variant, are likely to come from outside the US.

What a comment - just WOW.

First, you partially quote the CDC to support your position - ie. quote out of context. They said the vaccination is failing to prevent the DELTA variant.

Then in the same paragraph, you LEAP to the "vaccine is a HOAX".

The vaccine is FAILING with DELTA because we failed to get enough people vaccinated soon enough to stop the mutation.

The vaccine is NOT a hoax.

99% of people being admitted to hospitals are not vaccinated. Maybe, all the vaccinated people just prefer to die at home? Or better yet, everyone all over the world is just lying.

At least we know that "CIVID will magically disappear in April"

[RockyMountainMan]

It's all B.S. First it was stop the hospitalizations, then it was stop the deaths, now it's stop the number of cases. As many people in Florida got head colds this month as people got covid. So what. Here are some sobering facts:
2,913,144 people in the U.S, died in 2020 (year of the pandemic) 57,641 MORE than died in 2019 (no pandemic) But wait a minute!
Supposedly 600,000 more Americans died in 2020 from covid. The numbers don't add up. If an additional 600K people died from covid the number should be well over 3,500,000...so how many people really died of covid last year. Not near the amount the media, politicians, and the Gov't told us.

The American people swallowed the bait hook, line and sinker. It's all about controlling our lives. Our central gov't is getting bigger and more powerful every day, and the elitists who are at the top are like addicts getting high on their power and just like addicts they will do anything to keep getting high! So mask up, gown up, live in complete fear and hide in your closet until the power addicted elite in Washington tell you, you can come out. (More room for them and their families in restaurants and public places and they don't have look at all the "great unwashed") Our founders would be appalled!

[GrumpyOldMan]

That nonsense doesn't even rate a reply
And please stop posting this garbage, there may be a few naive members who might actually believe this crock

Aw, come on, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!

[biker1]

From the CDC,

"In 2020, approximately 3,358,814 deaths† occurred in the United States."

"During 2020, COVID-19 was listed as the underlying or contributing cause of 377,883 deaths (91.5 per 100,000 population)."

Provisional Mortality Data — United States, 2020 | MMWR (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm)

From the CDC,

"In 2019, a total of 2,854,838 resident deaths were registered in the United States ..."

Products - Data Briefs - Number 395 - December 2020 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db395.htm)



It's all B.S. First it was stop the hospitalizations, then it was stop the deaths, now it's stop the number of cases. As many people in Florida got head colds this month as people got covid. So what. Here are some sobering facts:
2,913,144 people in the U.S, died in 2020 (year of the pandemic) 57,641 MORE than died in 2019 (no pandemic) But wait a minute!
Supposedly 600,000 more Americans died in 2020 from covid. The numbers don't add up. If an additional 600K people died from covid the number should be well over 3,500,000...so how many people really died of covid last year. Not near the amount the media, politicians, and the Gov't told us.

The American people swallowed the bait hook, line and sinker. It's all about controlling our lives. Our central gov't is getting bigger and more powerful every day, and the elitists who are at the top are like addicts getting high on their power and just like addicts they will do anything to keep getting high! So mask up, gown up, live in complete fear and hide in your closet until the power addicted elite in Washington tell you, you can come out. (More room for them and their families in restaurants and public places and they don't have look at all the "great unwashed") Our founders would be appalled!

[GrumpyOldMan]

70.1% of Americans have at least one shot of the vaccination as of 28 Jul. -- CDC.
CDC demographics shows that the majority of those that do not yet have at least one shot of the vaccination are either under the age of 12 or minorities. Minorities are the largest group of hold outs due to being told not to trust the vaccination last year.
I believe that COVID originated in the U.S. and was sent to China for experimentation. Easy to blame China but we are probably just as guilty for this mess. My opinion just like every one of the other posts on here.
Time to quit blaming your neighbors and just get on with you life. I plan to regardless of what you wish to do. If you don't trust your neighbor then wear your mask. If you don't trust your vaccination then wear your mask. I don't wear a mask and no one has gotten sick around me so don't blame me. If you do you must not be wearing your mask, right?

Ignoring more of your post, the largest racial group that is not vaccinated. The largest political group that is not vaccinated is the republicans.

I guess they are still waiting for it to magically disappear in April.

So no one around you has gotten sick. Yeah, right. Okay, uh, seriously? So, you know and communicate with every single person you have come into contact with in the past year. You NEVER go into stores, you NEVER go to gas stations, you NEVER golf, you NEVER pick up your mail. And every single person you know and have come into contact with has reported back to you on regular occasions that they are still COVID-free. And they know this because every single one of them is regularly tested.

Seriously, no wonder you NEVER got the virus, you live in total 100% isolation.

[GrumpyOldMan]

From the CDC,

"In 2020, approximately 3,358,814 deaths† occurred in the United States."

"During 2020, COVID-19 was listed as the underlying or contributing cause of 377,883 deaths (91.5 per 100,000 population)."

Provisional Mortality Data — United States, 2020 | MMWR (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm)

Really. You do know this has to be debunked oh, maybe 10,000 times since it was first suggested?

[MDLNB]

Ignoring more of your post, the largest racial group that is not vaccinated. The largest political group that is not vaccinated is the republicans.

I guess they are still waiting for it to magically disappear in April.

So no one around you has gotten sick. Yeah, right. Okay, uh, seriously? So, you know and communicate with every single person you have come into contact with in the past year. You NEVER go into stores, you NEVER go to gas stations, you NEVER golf, you NEVER pick up your mail. And every single person you know and have come into contact with has reported back to you on regular occasions that they are still COVID-free. And they know this because every single one of them is regularly tested.

Seriously, no wonder you NEVER got the virus, you live in total 100% isolation.


Not true. That is false information.

[biker1]

What exactly are you ranting about now?

Really. You do know this has to be debunked oh, maybe 10,000 times since it was first suggested?

[GrumpyOldMan]

The FDA admits the test was developed without isolated covid samples for test calibration, effectively admitting it's testing something else. Also, the creator of the PCR test has been on several videos stating that it does not work to test covid as it has never been isolated.

The PCR test was not developed to test COVID -19. Correct, it was developed in 1985.

The quote is actually from an article written by John Lauritsen in December 1996 about HIV and AIDS, not COVID-19 (here).

So, yes, it was developed without any COVID-19 virus to test it on.

The context around the quote shows Lauritsen is not saying PCR tests do not work.

Instead, he is clarifying that PCR identifies substances qualitatively not quantitatively, detecting the genetic sequences of viruses, but not the viruses themselves: “PCR is intended to identify substances qualitatively, but by its very nature is unsuited for estimating numbers. Although there is a common misimpression that the viral load tests actually count the number of viruses in the blood, these tests cannot detect free, infectious viruses at all; they can only detect proteins that are believed, in some cases wrongly, to be unique to HIV. The tests can detect genetic sequences of viruses, but not viruses themselves.”

I won't claim to know why the test is used - that is what scientists are for, they do that stuff for a living. But, I am fairly certain I will trust them before I trust you or Tucker, or anyone not qualified to understand.

You know that most deaths attributed to heart attacks are attributed to heart attacks because of a test that looks for a protein, Troponin T, or a look at the heart image to see if there is damage. It is NOT proof of a heart attack, it is something that is normally associated with heart attacks - so, I guess we should write off all those deaths attributed to heart attacks as "cause of death is a hoax".

[golfing eagles]

The PCR test was not developed to test COVID -19. Correct, it was developed in 1985.

The quote is actually from an article written by John Lauritsen in December 1996 about HIV and AIDS, not COVID-19 (here).

So, yes, it was developed without any COVID-19 virus to test it on.

The context around the quote shows Lauritsen is not saying PCR tests do not work.

Instead, he is clarifying that PCR identifies substances qualitatively not quantitatively, detecting the genetic sequences of viruses, but not the viruses themselves: “PCR is intended to identify substances qualitatively, but by its very nature is unsuited for estimating numbers. Although there is a common misimpression that the viral load tests actually count the number of viruses in the blood, these tests cannot detect free, infectious viruses at all; they can only detect proteins that are believed, in some cases wrongly, to be unique to HIV. The tests can detect genetic sequences of viruses, but not viruses themselves.”

I won't claim to know why the test is used - that is what scientists are for, they do that stuff for a living. But, I am fairly certain I will trust them before I trust you or Tucker, or anyone not qualified to understand.

You know that most deaths attributed to heart attacks are attributed to heart attacks because of a test that looks for a protein, Troponin T, or a look at the heart image to see if there is damage. It is NOT proof of a heart attack, it is something that is normally associated with heart attacks - so, I guess we should write off all those deaths attributed to heart attacks as "cause of death is a hoax".

Not quite, this time my friend.

First of all, it is troponin I, a structural protein of the muscle cells of the heart that get released into the bloodstream when someone has a myocardial infarction. It IS PROOF of a "heart attack", by definition. Now, the problem is that it is far more sensitive than an echocardiogram or a nuclear medicine scan at determining "damage", which pushes the definition of a "heart attack" to include minimal or even no functional damage.
In some ways this is similar to a COVID test that is sensitive enough to pick up left over viral fragments in a completely cured(or immunized) person who cannot transmit the virus any more (possibly like John Rahm)
So, here we go again---what is a "case" of COVID, and what is a "case" of a heart attack. As always the borderline is fuzzy.

[Spalumbos62]

Since all (vaccinated or not) are now seen as major spreaders of the contagious Delta variant, the only differentiator is who gets sick. Why are you (no one specific; just the reader in general) all worried about those not willing to get vaccinated (me and millions of others)? It's not like the unvaccinated are a special risk to anyone. Your fellow vaccinated citizen is just as likely to be infected and contagious as all the talking heads are saying right now.

All you vaccinated folk can infect each other without any help from me or others. You can also catch and spread the virus to all the "vulnerable" population (elderly, sick, immune compromised, etc) all by yourselves.

So, why the passports? Lockdowns? Masks? F*cking the economy up? Now, it's even move obvious that it's all about control. The only people at risk are those CHOOSING not to get vaccinated. Let me take my risk. Don't worry about me. Go about your lives.

It would now seem, given the current parameters, that we should just put COVID-19 on ignore. According to the experts, there is no reason to ask anyone "are you vaccinated?" as your behavior should be the same no matter what the answer. The unwashed masses are not more likely to be infected / contagious / dangerous than all those who chose the path of putting an experimental cocktail in their arm (twice).

It boils down to this fact: The various rules then are simply to coerce vaccination.


It does seem like it's almost getting to that point...if we ALL are spreading, why single out and chastise the nonvaxers. In time it will be obvious who was or wasn't vaxed.
But with being so adamant and putting your foot down about doing something that could possibly keep you out of the hospital, could possibly prevent you from going onto a ventilator....are you willing to put your money where your mouth is...so to speak? It's fine and dandy there is so much conviction, but when you come out, if you do, will you pay. Better said, if they said no vac-no coverage, would you get the shot?

* when I say "you" I mean all nonvaxers with this belief.

[graciegirl]

Not true. That is false information.

I agree MDLNB. I so agree. I am tired of hearing this. I am tired of not being allowed to talk about a large group of folks who will not get vaccinated.

We are no longer able to discuss facts for fear of saying something that offends a group that is being carefully protected.

Here is an example of folks who are flagrantly ignoring the rules. I don't think they are older, traditional, conservative.;
L.A. threatens to shut off utilities at homes that host big parties during pandemic (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-deadly-mansion-party-los-angeles-county-issues-legally-binding-n1235896)

[golfing eagles]

It does seem like it's almost getting to that point...if we ALL are spreading, why single out and chastise the nonvaxers. In time it will be obvious who was or wasn't vaxed.
But with being so adamant and putting your foot down about doing something that could possibly keep you out of the hospital, could possibly prevent you from going onto a ventilator....are you willing to put your money where your mouth is...so to speak? It's fine and dandy there is so much conviction, but when you come out, if you do, will you pay. Better said, if they said no vac-no coverage, would you get the shot?

* when I say "you" I mean all nonvaxers with this belief.

Oh, no, I almost agree with you. This is really scary.
But I'm still not giving up my rolling laughing little men. :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

I agree MDLNB. I so agree. I am tired of hearing this. I am tired of not being allowed to talk about a large group of folks who will not get vaccinated.

We are no longer able to discuss facts for fear of saying something that offends a group that is being carefully protected.

Like it was said in the past----"Elections have consequences":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[jimjamuser]

What next?

A bunch of people die, everyone else either gets the virus or doesn't. It mutates some more, a bunch of people get sick with a variety of symptoms, some worse than others. Maybe a few people get stuck on ventilators for the rest of their lives, a couple have to get a lung removed.

Meanwhile, everyone else just carries on and lives their lives. Except without their daughter, who's dead from the virus. And without money since it's all sunk into 24/7 nursing care to keep their 40-year-old dad alive. And without their son, who came down with really bad symptoms but didn't take any precautions, and spread it to his best friend, who died of the disease. Sonny committed suicide because he couldn't live with the guilt.

Maybe some families were left intact, no losses, huzzah! But their neighbors have stopped being neighborly, their cousins are now avoiding close contact because THEY have lost friends and neighbors...a few schools have had to make adjustments because some teachers are now dead, so your kids are being educated by a new batch of teachers who have no prior experience...

You have a new mailman now, and he doesn't know that you need the mail put through the doggie door instead of the mail box over the doorbell, because some whacko down the street steals the circulars for coupons...

That's what's next. That is the new world coming. Just a few more dead people. No big deal right?
The history of the modern world is going to be written pre-CV inception and post-CV inception. The main question then becomes........just to what degree of BAD will the post-CV inception really be? ALREADY we have 2 Americas, not a single-minded America focused strictly on the Great Virus War (WW 2.5). The UK has a vaccination rate of 85% and is returning to "normal". The US had a better start than the UK and could and SHOULD have been at 85% in April if NOT for Evangelical-type anti-vaccine thinking and other anti-American thinking and leadership flaws.

A few statistics.........72,000 new US pediatric US cases in the last week........49 CV patients currently at our TV Land hospital............5 pediatric hospitalizations at Advent Health, Orlando......BAD is becoming "BADDER"

[Spalumbos62]

Oh, no, I almost agree with you. This is really scary.
But I'm still not giving up my rolling laughing little men. :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:


Lol....if I knew where to find them I'd post them right back at ya...lol
Let's all stay healthy.

[biker1]

Please stop making nonsensical statements. 85% in April was not possible. First of all, vaccinations were only opened up to those under 65 starting at the beginning of April in many locations. 83% of the population is under 65 so most people did not have access to vaccinations in April. Secondly, about 18% of the population is under 12 and are still not eligible for the vaccine.

The history of the modern world is going to be written pre-CV inception and post-CV inception. The main question then becomes........just to what degree of BAD will the post-CV inception really be? ALREADY we have 2 Americas, not a single-minded America focused strictly on the Great Virus War (WW 2.5). The UK has a vaccination rate of 85% and is returning to "normal". The US had a better start than the UK and could and SHOULD have been at 85% in April if NOT for Evangelical-type anti-vaccine thinking and other anti-American thinking and leadership flaws.

A few statistics.........72,000 new US pediatric US cases in the last week........49 CV patients currently at our TV Land hospital............5 pediatric hospitalizations at Advent Health, Orlando......BAD is becoming "BADDER"

[golfing eagles]

Lol....if I knew where to find them I'd post them right back at ya...lol
Let's all stay healthy.

They didn't get their vaccines, so I quarantined them (:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:)

[golfing eagles]

Please stop making nonsensical statements. 85% in April was not possible. First of all, vaccinations were only opened up to those under 65 starting at the beginning of April in many locations. 83% of the population is under 65 so most people did not have access to vaccinations in April. Secondly, about 18% of the population is under 12 and are still not eligible for the vaccine.

Don't confuse anyone with the facts

[Waltdisney4life]

Love it so people with the vaccine still can get COVID so why get the vaccine? The double talk is entertaining but dangerous. Stop selling the abc tv and USA Today fear and promote the shots instead if you really care. Or do some just enjoy scarring others with false info?

[golfing eagles]

Love it so people with the vaccine still can get COVID so why get the vaccine? The double talk is entertaining but dangerous. Stop selling the abc tv and USA Today fear and promote the shots instead if you really care. Or do some just enjoy scarring others with false info?

Hence the reason why I thought it was a huge mistake for Rochelle Walensky to publicize the data from a single county, 2 week period with large gatherings in Cape Cod. The ignorant would take home exactly that message---that the vaccine does not protect you and doesn't stop the spread, so why get it, while that statement couldn't be further from the truth.

[rsmurano]

I agree with justjim. I play sports everyday, even last year when most people were afraid of dying if they go outside. Last year scare tactics were mostly political. The number of Covid deaths were way over blown because of the money hospitals would get if they put “Covid” on the visit.
I’m not in favor of getting the vaccine or not getting it, it’s up to you to decide, and the government should not be dictating to us either way.
If you are nervous that you might get Covid, then by all means, protect yourself anyway you can. If you are healthy, then you should determine which direction is right for you: vaccinate or not.

[jimjamuser]

And meteoroids will strike the earth and the oxygen levels will dwindle. The plants will die and aliens will take over the planet…
I know that was meant to be a sarcastic joke.....but, in reality, world oxygen levels are slightly affected by the massive burning of forests in the Amazon. And the US is having problems with massive smoke from fires in our West. There is unwanted population migration toward the US and Europe caused by Global Warming.

The US has so many other problems that there is LITTLE movement toward any, "plant a tree" efforts. Look around at the yards here in TV Land - many are like a desert of grass with very little shrubbery and trees for trim and accents. Grass in yards by itself, requires excess fertilizer and loud, pollution-producing gas (not electric) lawn mowing - and golf courses that get zero use in the summer afternoon. The point is that TV Land is no ecological paradise and in many ways IS the perfect example of the problem for the future and NOT the solution. So, talk about your perfect grandchildren, while ignoring your generation's responsibilities to the health and welfare of their lives. TV Land does NOT even PRETEND to be interested in anything but more and more greedy development.

[Escape Artist]

If I'm not mistaken, herd immunity is something that's achieved over time through natural infection and vaccine use. As many have mentioned on here, most people didn't have access to the vaccine until mid-April because of age restrictions initially and vaccine availability. That depended on the state you lived in and how much of the vaccine they received and could distribute.

[Escape Artist]

Love it so people with the vaccine still can get COVID so why get the vaccine? The double talk is entertaining but dangerous. Stop selling the abc tv and USA Today fear and promote the shots instead if you really care. Or do some just enjoy scarring others with false info?

What's also scary is that they won't admit their ignorance or uncertainty about the effectiveness of the vaccine. My daughter went to her hairdresser yesterday and the woman was wearing a mask. She knew she had been fully vaccinated for awhile and asked her why. She said she'd been exposed to COVID and had taken two tests which were negative but it was an extra precaution out of concern for her clients, which was nice of her.

Both her parents, who had been fully vaccinated since March, got COVID and her father is very ill and might have to be hospitalized. Her siblings also had it along with other family members. So does the vaccine really work against the variants? It'd be nice if someone without a vested interest, political or otherwise, would tell us. Maybe they have but we don't want to listen?

[jimjamuser]

But according to the CDC, those who have had Covid are much less likely to be reinfected. So if the Delta strain is much more contagious and less deadly, we will actually reach herd immunity quicker…
Delta IS BOTH more contagious AND more DEADLY. 97% of all CV hospitalizations are among the UNvaccinated. There are now 5 CV pediatric patients at Advent Health in Orlando. There are 49 CV patients in our local hospital. They are ALL unVACCINATED! If someone could interview them, I am convinced that they WISHED that they had gotten vaccinated - some MAY (?) have tubes into their throats and would have difficulty speaking. Good luck to everyone that is UNvaccinated!

[GrumpyOldMan]

So does the vaccine really work against the variants? It'd be nice if someone without a vested interest, political or otherwise, would tell us. Maybe they have but we don't want to listen?

Depends on what you mean by "really work". It seems most people think "really works" mean 100% effective, completely prevents any infections.

NO vaccine is 100%. effective. The current vaccine was developed (designed) to fight the original COVID-19. It was very very effective against the original COVID-19. There is no doubt, there are countless studies by professionals that actually work in the field of epidemics and pandemics that show this They do not show 100% effectiveness, but very close.

The variant happened. No need to point fingers about why, it happened, now we need to deal with that DELTA variant. The initial studies (which are limited in scope - for many reasons so far) show that DELTA is very much more contagious than the original virus. So, many more people will get it. Initial indications are the DELTA, a new virus that can infect some people that have been vaccinated for the original virus. It appears the vaccine is about 80% effective, meaning about 20% of the people that have been vaccinated may get the DELTA. But, that is very preliminary data and should be taken with a grain of salt. There seems to be no doubt that some people that have been vaccinated can be infected by the DELTA variant. So, CDC recommended returning to wearing masks until we have more data to show exactly how effective the vaccine is.

BUT, so far all indications are that the vaccine is very effective in preventing serious symptoms and/or hospitalizations in people that become infected with the DELTA variant. Of the people in many (most?) hospitals with COVID now, MOST (over 90%) are unvaccinated.

I can't find a number from any "credible source" of how many of the people who are fully vaccinated and get DELTA and die. It is generally estimated as very few. most that die from DELTA are unvaccinated.

[midiwiz]

Your post seems reasonable and I agree. I said to my husband that I never thought that we would see such a time, EVER.

a gentle reminder - (from another post elsewhere)

Imagine being born in 1900.
When you are 14 years old
World War I begins
and ends when you are 18,
with 22 million dead.
Shortly after the world pandemic,
flu called ′′ Spanish ",
killing 50 million people.
You go out alive and free,
and you are 20 years old.
Then at the age of 29 you survive the global economic crisis that started with the collapse of the New York Stock Exchange causing inflation, unemployment and hunger.
Nazis come to power at 33.
You are 39 when world war 2. begins
and it ends when you are 45 during the Holocaust (Shoah), 6 million Jews die.
There will be a total of more than 60 million dead.
When your 52th Korean war begins.
When you are 64, the Vietnam war begins and ends when you are 75.
A baby born in 1985 believes his grandparents have no idea how hard life is,
and survived several wars and disasters.
A boy born in 1995 and 25 today believes that the end of the world when his Amazon package takes more than three days to arrive or if he doesn't exceed 15 likes for his posted photo on Facebook or Instagram...
In 2020., many of us live in comfort, have access to various sources of entertainment at home and often have more than needed.
But people complain about everything.
They have electricity, phone, food, hot water and a roof over their heads.
None of this existed.
But humanity survived much more serious circumstances and never lost the joy of life.

Maybe it's time to be less selfish, stop whining and crying

[Bill14564]

What's also scary is that they won't admit their ignorance or uncertainty about the effectiveness of the vaccine. My daughter went to her hairdresser yesterday and the woman was wearing a mask. She knew she had been fully vaccinated for awhile and asked her why. She said she'd been exposed to COVID and had taken two tests which were negative but it was an extra precaution out of concern for her clients, which was nice of her.

Both her parents, who had been fully vaccinated since March, got COVID and her father is very ill and might have to be hospitalized. Her siblings also had it along with other family members. So does the vaccine really work against the variants? It'd be nice if someone without a vested interest, political or otherwise, would tell us. Maybe they have but we don't want to listen?

Roughly half the US population has been vaccinated so any random exposure would get to about the same number of vaccinated as unvaccinated. Hospitalizations have increased greatly in the last month and according to all reports, more than 90% of those hospitalized were unvaccinated. Something is keeping the vaccinated from becoming sick and hospitalized.

[golfing eagles]

I agree with justjim. I play sports everyday, even last year when most people were afraid of dying if they go outside. Last year scare tactics were mostly political. The number of Covid deaths were way over blown because of the money hospitals would get if they put “Covid” on the visit.
I’m not in favor of getting the vaccine or not getting it, it’s up to you to decide, and the government should not be dictating to us either way.
If you are nervous that you might get Covid, then by all means, protect yourself anyway you can. If you are healthy, then you should determine which direction is right for you: vaccinate or not.

So, can I take that to mean you are in favor of tens of millions of people, almost none of whom have the expertise to make an intelligent decision, should just make up their own vaccination policy? And that our government has no responsibility to protect the public safety? Welcome to the U.S.A. (United State of Anarchy)

[GrumpyOldMan]

I agree with justjim. I play sports everyday, even last year when most people were afraid of dying if they go outside. Last year scare tactics were mostly political. The number of Covid deaths were way over blown because of the money hospitals would get if they put “Covid” on the visit.
I’m not in favor of getting the vaccine or not getting it, it’s up to you to decide, and the government should not be dictating to us either way.
If you are nervous that you might get Covid, then by all means, protect yourself anyway you can. If you are healthy, then you should determine which direction is right for you: vaccinate or not.

So, it's up to you to decide if your children get vaccinated. You know it's only polio.

The fact that you can sneeze and kill someone makes it the government's business. it is called public safety. You do NOT have the right to make decisions that put others' lives at risk.

[Altavia]

A Doomsday COVID Variant Worse Than Delta and Lambda May Be Coming, Scientists Say (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-doomsday-covid-variant-worse-than-delta-and-lambda-may-be-coming-scientists-say/ar-AAMVfDw?ocid=uxbndlbing)

Some good need here...

"Fortunately, there's a built-in impediment to what might otherwise be a potentially endless march toward ever-more-dangerous variants: The virus will at some point run out of ways to become nastier, thanks to the relatively simple structure of the spike protein, which can only be mutated in a few hundred different ways, most of which won't make the virus more harmful. "There are only so many changes that can be made to the spike protein without making it non-functional," says Vail. "I'd be cautious about saying that it can keep mutating indefinitely."

Another big break: Unlike the flu virus, SARS-CoV-2 doesn't have a structure that lends itself to mixing and matching genetic material between different variants. That "recombination" capability is what helps make the flu a moving target each year for vaccines."

[jimjamuser]

Since all (vaccinated or not) are now seen as major spreaders of the contagious Delta variant, the only differentiator is who gets sick. Why are you (no one specific; just the reader in general) all worried about those not willing to get vaccinated (me and millions of others)? It's not like the unvaccinated are a special risk to anyone. Your fellow vaccinated citizen is just as likely to be infected and contagious as all the talking heads are saying right now.

All you vaccinated folk can infect each other without any help from me or others. You can also catch and spread the virus to all the "vulnerable" population (elderly, sick, immune compromised, etc) all by yourselves.

So, why the passports? Lockdowns? Masks? F*cking the economy up? Now, it's even move obvious that it's all about control. The only people at risk are those CHOOSING not to get vaccinated. Let me take my risk. Don't worry about me. Go about your lives.

It would now seem, given the current parameters, that we should just put COVID-19 on ignore. According to the experts, there is no reason to ask anyone "are you vaccinated?" as your behavior should be the same no matter what the answer. The unwashed masses are not more likely to be infected / contagious / dangerous than all those who chose the path of putting an experimental cocktail in their arm (twice).

It boils down to this fact: The various rules then are simply to coerce vaccination.
I completely disagree with EVERY WORD!

[jimjamuser]

This quote is taken from the link you provided: “He adds that his team's analysis shows that almost every single one of the 100 million unvaccinated Americans who hasn't had COVID-19 yet will likely get it in the coming months”.
Based on that, we will achieve herd immunity pretty quickly…
But, the point IS all these UNvaccinated will NOT have mild symptoms. Some of them will be tortured by the disease in a hospital and then some of these will DIE. How can that be thought of as a good thing? They are our friends and neighbors. They have occupations and skills that benefit all of us. There are also moral issues in wanting herd immunity happening from suffering versus a vaccine. Sorry, I don't understand!

[MDLNB]

a gentle reminder - (from another post elsewhere)

Imagine being born in 1900.
When you are 14 years old
World War I begins
and ends when you are 18,
with 22 million dead.
Shortly after the world pandemic,
flu called ′′ Spanish ",
killing 50 million people.
You go out alive and free,
and you are 20 years old.
Then at the age of 29 you survive the global economic crisis that started with the collapse of the New York Stock Exchange causing inflation, unemployment and hunger.
Nazis come to power at 33.
You are 39 when world war 2. begins
and it ends when you are 45 during the Holocaust (Shoah), 6 million Jews die.
There will be a total of more than 60 million dead.
When your 52th Korean war begins.
When you are 64, the Vietnam war begins and ends when you are 75.
A baby born in 1985 believes his grandparents have no idea how hard life is,
and survived several wars and disasters.
A boy born in 1995 and 25 today believes that the end of the world when his Amazon package takes more than three days to arrive or if he doesn't exceed 15 likes for his posted photo on Facebook or Instagram...
In 2020., many of us live in comfort, have access to various sources of entertainment at home and often have more than needed.
But people complain about everything.
They have electricity, phone, food, hot water and a roof over their heads.
None of this existed.
But humanity survived much more serious circumstances and never lost the joy of life.

Maybe it's time to be less selfish, stop whining and crying


Totally Totally agree!:clap2:

[mike bales]

another so-called village expert speaks

[jimjamuser]

Via the words of the CDC's own director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, vaccines are now failing, and vaccinated people may now carry higher viral loads than unvaccinated people, contributing to the spread of covid.
The vaccine hoax is now collapsing as vaccinated people are now catching the "delta" variant and spreading it to other vaccinated people. Even worse, the vaxxed are the "super-breeders" who are incubating yet more dangerous vaccine-immune covid mutations.
Thus, people who signed up to be vaccinated not only got played by the CDC, they are now the super-spreaders and super-breeders who are worsening the entire pandemic.
I am sorry, but those facts and sentiments are coming from some dark cave of strange dark media speculation. I am sad to see such words echoing through a basically normal place like TV Land. It is disappointing.

[jimjamuser]

I'm new to the Villages.

Wow, the level of discourse here is surprising. I suppose I thought it was limited to the very young and young on social media.

I have a very religious friend who sees the world from the teachings of the Bible and the sermons on Sunday and Wednesday. There is no debate, so we never debate.

Some people deny a creator and other are sure of it.

Some people believe a person is born gay, others believe it is a choice.

Some people believe Trump is the best political leader ever, and others do not. Some in the same party do not.

Some believe in trying a vaccination to stem off potential death, others do not.

In none of the cases above, do I think I can convince you to change a belief by simple argument, regardless how compelling I feel it is.

Over time and through observation, I have changed my opinion on things I once disbelieved or denied.

I don't think there is a quick fix or a pithy factoid that will convince people to change their views on Covid and the Vaccine.

I got the vaccine at the first opportunity and I was aware of the emergency authorization. I made that decision for myself and cannot make it for others. I won't try to convince you one way or the other -- for one, I'm no expert, and two, you don't really care what I think.
Well, I cared enough to read your post...........but not enough to buy you lunch.

[Escape Artist]

But, the point IS all these UNvaccinated will NOT have mild symptoms. Some of them will be tortured by the disease in a hospital and then some of these will DIE. How can that be thought of as a good thing? They are our friends and neighbors. They have occupations and skills that benefit all of us. There are also moral issues in wanting herd immunity happening from suffering versus a vaccine. Sorry, I don't understand!

Did you read my post? About the couple who got COVID even though they are fully vaccinated and one of them is seriously ill? There will be no true herd immunity as long as there are variants emerging. There's one variant here already and others are on the way. We might ALL get COVID eventually, vaccinated or not.

[jimjamuser]

Ignoring more of your post, the largest racial group that is not vaccinated. The largest political group that is not vaccinated is the republicans.

I guess they are still waiting for it to magically disappear in April.

So no one around you has gotten sick. Yeah, right. Okay, uh, seriously? So, you know and communicate with every single person you have come into contact with in the past year. You NEVER go into stores, you NEVER go to gas stations, you NEVER golf, you NEVER pick up your mail. And every single person you know and have come into contact with has reported back to you on regular occasions that they are still COVID-free. And they know this because every single one of them is regularly tested.

Seriously, no wonder you NEVER got the virus, you live in total 100% isolation.
It is possible that CV goes away in April................April 2067

[jimjamuser]

Please stop making nonsensical statements. 85% in April was not possible. First of all, vaccinations were only opened up to those under 65 starting at the beginning of April in many locations. 83% of the population is under 65 so most people did not have access to vaccinations in April. Secondly, about 18% of the population is under 12 and are still not eligible for the vaccine.
Well, I know for a fact that people under 65, but working in hospitals locally got vaccinated in January. Also, rich privileged people at a fancy resort in Miami near the Keys of various ages got vaccinated in January. Please feel free to check the Miami newspapers about this.

If everyone eligible to get vaccinated (with NO, ZERO anti-vaxxers) had STARTED getting vaccinated in April the US would have been near zero hospitalizations by mid-July. And we could have avoided the Delta variant in the US. Then we could have started helping other parts of the world. Incidentally, Japan and Australia were handling the Virus pretty well EARLY ON before any vaccine simply because they had the willpower nationwide to do it.

I am basically saying that if the US had the national will to do it, we would have "herd immunity" by now. And I am processing why we did NOT have that unified willpower. We did have it for WW2 - remember!

[jimjamuser]

What's also scary is that they won't admit their ignorance or uncertainty about the effectiveness of the vaccine. My daughter went to her hairdresser yesterday and the woman was wearing a mask. She knew she had been fully vaccinated for awhile and asked her why. She said she'd been exposed to COVID and had taken two tests which were negative but it was an extra precaution out of concern for her clients, which was nice of her.

Both her parents, who had been fully vaccinated since March, got COVID and her father is very ill and might have to be hospitalized. Her siblings also had it along with other family members. So does the vaccine really work against the variants? It'd be nice if someone without a vested interest, political or otherwise, would tell us. Maybe they have but we don't want to listen?
97% of all US Doctors have gotten their vaccines. That IS a pretty powerful fact!

[jimjamuser]

Depends on what you mean by "really work". It seems most people think "really works" mean 100% effective, completely prevents any infections.

NO vaccine is 100%. effective. The current vaccine was developed (designed) to fight the original COVID-19. It was very very effective against the original COVID-19. There is no doubt, there are countless studies by professionals that actually work in the field of epidemics and pandemics that show this They do not show 100% effectiveness, but very close.

The variant happened. No need to point fingers about why, it happened, now we need to deal with that DELTA variant. The initial studies (which are limited in scope - for many reasons so far) show that DELTA is very much more contagious than the original virus. So, many more people will get it. Initial indications are the DELTA, a new virus that can infect some people that have been vaccinated for the original virus. It appears the vaccine is about 80% effective, meaning about 20% of the people that have been vaccinated may get the DELTA. But, that is very preliminary data and should be taken with a grain of salt. There seems to be no doubt that some people that have been vaccinated can be infected by the DELTA variant. So, CDC recommended returning to wearing masks until we have more data to show exactly how effective the vaccine is.

BUT, so far all indications are that the vaccine is very effective in preventing serious symptoms and/or hospitalizations in people that become infected with the DELTA variant. Of the people in many (most?) hospitals with COVID now, MOST (over 90%) are unvaccinated.

I can't find a number from any "credible source" of how many of the people who are fully vaccinated and get DELTA and die. It is generally estimated as very few. most that die from DELTA are unvaccinated.
The vaccines were designed to primarily prevent hospitalization and deaths - NOT to prevent cases. so far, I would have to applaud that design criterion.

"Whatever doesn't kill you, mutates gets stronger, and again tries to kill you".......some GREAT philosopher

[Swoop]

The vaccines were designed to primarily prevent hospitalization and deaths - NOT to prevent cases. so far, I would have to applaud that design criterion.

"Whatever doesn't kill you, mutates gets stronger, and again tries to kill you".......some GREAT philosopher

Funny, that’s revisionist history. Because that’s not what the public was originally told…

[golfing eagles]

Well, I know for a fact that people under 65, but working in hospitals locally got vaccinated in January. Also, rich privileged people at a fancy resort in Miami near the Keys of various ages got vaccinated in January. Please feel free to check the Miami newspapers about this.

If everyone eligible to get vaccinated (with NO, ZERO anti-vaxxers) had STARTED getting vaccinated in April the US would have been near zero hospitalizations by mid-July. And we could have avoided the Delta variant in the US. Then we could have started helping other parts of the world. Incidentally, Japan and Australia were handling the Virus pretty well EARLY ON before any vaccine simply because they had the willpower nationwide to do it.

I am basically saying that if the US had the national will to do it, we would have "herd immunity" by now. And I am processing why we did NOT have that unified willpower. We did have it for WW2 - remember!

Short answer: Maybe, and maybe not. A ton of suppositions in that post

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Did you read my post? About the couple who got COVID even though they are fully vaccinated and one of them is seriously ill? There will be no true herd immunity as long as there are variants emerging. There's one variant here already and others are on the way. We might ALL get COVID eventually, vaccinated or not.

There will be no herd immunity as long as the virus has ripe lovely non-immune hosts in which to mutate. Herd immunity is -most efficiently- achieved via vaccination.

Sadly, too many people reject science. They're fine with putting up a wall to stop immigrants (and the wall won't actually stop them) but they're not fine putting up a wall to stop the virus. Walls are only useful for people they consider undesirable.

[Swoop]

97% of all US Doctors have gotten their vaccines. That IS a pretty powerful fact!

The actual number is 96% and that was based on a survey of 301 doctors…
Hardly representative of ALL US DOCTORS…

[Altavia]

97% of all US Doctors have gotten their vaccines. That IS a pretty powerful fact!

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19 | American Medical Association (https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19)

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19 | American Medical Association (https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19)

[jimjamuser]

Did you read my post? About the couple who got COVID even though they are fully vaccinated and one of them is seriously ill? There will be no true herd immunity as long as there are variants emerging. There's one variant here already and others are on the way. We might ALL get COVID eventually, vaccinated or not.
Many of the vaccinated that have bad symptoms or get hospitalized have been found to be immunocompromised. It is a VERY small number and has no significance when 97% of Doctors ARE vaccinated and advising US people to get vaccinated. Other countries are begging to get the vaccine!

[golfing eagles]

The actual number is 96% and that was based on a survey of 301 doctors…
Hardly representative of ALL US DOCTORS…

Hate to say it but I have to agree.

What was the design of the survey?? Is it statistically significant? I don't know.

However, if it was a simple "are you vaccinated?" survey, the results might be quite biased. Every doctor(medical doctors, not the pretenders or quacks) knows damn well he/she should be vaccinated. So if he/she wasn't, they might not own up to it.

Also, in my experience, you can't get 96% of doctors to agree on whether the Earth is round, much less get vaccinated.

[jimjamuser]

Short answer: Maybe, and maybe not. A ton of suppositions in that post
I never claimed to be a Medical Scientist or a Doctor with a good golf swing. I am merely a person that has the time to watch and read the news and some science journals. I then try to write in my own words what I have absorbed - to the best of my ability. None of us, except maybe Blue fire remnants, is perfect. A large % of what is written on this forum is opinion. I don't think in terms of links - I do NOT have a photographic memory. I try to give an opinion that may (?) or may NOT point others away from purposeful disinformation and/or propaganda. A current Medical Scientist would, obviously, NOT be interested in my opinions on the future trajectory of the DELTA or other variants. However, it IS possible (?) that some others might be? Thank you!

[Escape Artist]

Hate to say it but I have to agree.

What was the design of the survey?? Is it statistically significant? I don't know.

However, if it was a simple "are you vaccinated?" survey, the results might be quite biased. Every doctor(medical doctors, not the pretenders or quacks) knows damn well he/she should be vaccinated. So if he/she wasn't, they might not own up to it.

Also, in my experience, you can't get 96% of doctors to agree on whether the Earth is round, much less get vaccinated.

So "doctors" are a separate category from health care workers. Because that was one of the groups identified that weren't getting vaccinated at a high rate. I'm not too surprised because many don't even want the seasonal flu vaccines. Maybe they know something we don't?

[Escape Artist]

There will be no herd immunity as long as the virus has ripe lovely non-immune hosts in which to mutate. Herd immunity is -most efficiently- achieved via vaccination.

Sadly, too many people reject science. They're fine with putting up a wall to stop immigrants (and the wall won't actually stop them) but they're not fine putting up a wall to stop the virus. Walls are only useful for people they consider undesirable.

You're wrong on all counts. The people who are "rejecting" science are not the ones who want to put up a wall to stop people from entering the country illegally. The facts are there along with the statistics but you don't want to believe them because it doesn't fit your overall world view/narrative.

Science, as it happens, is currently falling on its face. The constant shifting of opinions, contradictory information,the back-tracking, the ever-changing directives and mandates, etc. They're making it easy to distrust them, and in turn, write off the vaccines.

[golfing eagles]

So "doctors" are a separate category from health care workers. Because that was one of the groups identified that weren't getting vaccinated at a high rate. I'm not too surprised because many don't even want the seasonal flu vaccines. Maybe they know something we don't?

Methinks you may have got the wrong take home message from my post......

[golfing eagles]

You're wrong on all counts. The people who are "rejecting" science are not the ones who want to put up a wall to stop people from entering the country illegally. The facts are there along with the statistics but you don't want to believe them because it doesn't fit your overall world view/narrative.

Science, as it happens, is currently falling on its face. The constant shifting of opinions, contradictory information,the back-tracking, the ever-changing directives and mandates, etc. They're making it easy to distrust them, and in turn, write off the vaccines.

I'll leave the replies to others----way too much low hanging fruit here:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[CFrance]

You're wrong on all counts. The people who are "rejecting" science are not the ones who want to put up a wall to stop people from entering the country illegally. The facts are there along with the statistics but you don't want to believe them because it doesn't fit your overall world view/narrative.

Science, as it happens, is currently falling on its face. The constant shifting of opinions, contradictory information,the back-tracking, the ever-changing directives and mandates, etc. They're making it easy to distrust them, and in turn, write off the vaccines.

I'll leave the replies to others----way too much low hanging fruit here:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
(Once again) I'll bite...

[Cview]

This post would be absolutely correct, IF you just substitute the word "quacks" for "doctors"

Ivermectin was what I wormed my horses with, what kind of doctor prescribes ivermectin for Covid????

[Escape Artist]

But, the point IS all these UNvaccinated will NOT have mild symptoms. Some of them will be tortured by the disease in a hospital and then some of these will DIE. How can that be thought of as a good thing? They are our friends and neighbors. They have occupations and skills that benefit all of us. There are also moral issues in wanting herd immunity happening from suffering versus a vaccine. Sorry, I don't understand!

Yes, sometimes people don't take the advice of their doctors and they die. It happens every day. COVID is no different. Also, you mentioned "friends and neighbors" being affected, but again, we don't have control over others' lives. You can only try and gently persuade them because anything more forceful doesn't work. People get angry as it is a personal decision.

Case in point, I have a close friend who's 80. She has a myriad of underlying conditions/health problems (double cancer survivor, half a lung, heart problems) and if she got COVID she'd be a goner. She stubbornly refuses to get the vaccine because not enough is known about it and she thinks there might be unforeseen side effects. I tried to explain that isn't a smart gamble to take at her age, and getting a vaccine is the prudent thing to do. Surprisingly, some of her friends in her age group don't want to get the vaccine either, and both her son and daughter (in their 50's) aren't vaccinated. It didn't help matters when she told her doctor she wanted to wait until more was known about the vaccines and he agreed with her (there's one of your unvaccinated doctors right there!).

Bottom line is, we got into a slight argument about it as I kept trying to convince her but in the end I had to stop or it might have ruined our friendship. You can't save people from themselves. You can try, but ultimately they are in control of their own destiny.

[JMintzer]

The history of the modern world is going to be written pre-CV inception and post-CV inception. The main question then becomes........just to what degree of BAD will the post-CV inception really be? ALREADY we have 2 Americas, not a single-minded America focused strictly on the Great Virus War (WW 2.5). The UK has a vaccination rate of 85% and is returning to "normal". The US had a better start than the UK and could and SHOULD have been at 85% in April if NOT for Evangelical-type anti-vaccine thinking and other anti-American thinking and leadership flaws.

A few statistics.........72,000 new US pediatric US cases in the last week........49 CV patients currently at our TV Land hospital............5 pediatric hospitalizations at Advent Health, Orlando......BAD is becoming "BADDER"

You keep citing these "facts" with nothing to back them up...

As of 08/02/2021, the fully vaccinated rate in the UK was 58.1%. Nowhere NEAR 85%

uk vaccination rates - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+vaccination+rates&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS873US874&oq=uk&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0i67i131i433l2j0i67l2j69i 65l2.3550j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

[JMintzer]

Well, I know for a fact that people under 65, but working in hospitals locally got vaccinated in January. Also, rich privileged people at a fancy resort in Miami near the Keys of various ages got vaccinated in January. Please feel free to check the Miami newspapers about this.

If everyone eligible to get vaccinated (with NO, ZERO anti-vaxxers) had STARTED getting vaccinated in April the US would have been near zero hospitalizations by mid-July. And we could have avoided the Delta variant in the US. Then we could have started helping other parts of the world. Incidentally, Japan and Australia were handling the Virus pretty well EARLY ON before any vaccine simply because they had the willpower nationwide to do it.

I am basically saying that if the US had the national will to do it, we would have "herd immunity" by now. And I am processing why we did NOT have that unified willpower. We did have it for WW2 - remember!

Japan, who's mask compliance is at 98%, is currently experiencing its highest numbers of positive covid tests EVER...

japan covid cases - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+covid+cases&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS873US874&oq=japan+covid+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j35i39j0i433i512j0i20i263i433i51 2j0i433i512j69i60l3.9478j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

[JMintzer]

97% of all US Doctors have gotten their vaccines. That IS a pretty powerful fact!

Should I also repeat myself (once again) about the low number of nurses and other hospital employees?

Oh, and did you not read that that "poll" came from a sample of only 300 doctors?

[JMintzer]

The vaccines were designed to primarily prevent hospitalization and deaths - NOT to prevent cases. so far, I would have to applaud that design criterion.

Completely false...

[Escape Artist]

Should I also repeat myself (once again) about the low number of nurses and other hospital employees?

Oh, and did you not read that that "poll" came from a sample of only 300 doctors?

I mentioned about the health care workers (nurses, etc.) not wanting to get the vaccine and a poster thought I equated that with the stats on the doctors, which was not my intention. I merely wanted to point out that nurses and other health workers were not on board with the vaccinations and perhaps that was telling in some way.

[Nucky]

a gentle reminder - (from another post elsewhere)

Imagine being born in 1900.
When you are 14 years old
World War I begins
and ends when you are 18,
with 22 million dead.
Shortly after the world pandemic,
flu called ′′ Spanish ",
killing 50 million people.
You go out alive and free,
and you are 20 years old.
Then at the age of 29 you survive the global economic crisis that started with the collapse of the New York Stock Exchange causing inflation, unemployment and hunger.
Nazis come to power at 33.
You are 39 when world war 2. begins
and it ends when you are 45 during the Holocaust (Shoah), 6 million Jews die.
There will be a total of more than 60 million dead.
When your 52th Korean war begins.
When you are 64, the Vietnam war begins and ends when you are 75.
A baby born in 1985 believes his grandparents have no idea how hard life is,
and survived several wars and disasters.
A boy born in 1995 and 25 today believes that the end of the world when his Amazon package takes more than three days to arrive or if he doesn't exceed 15 likes for his posted photo on Facebook or Instagram...
In 2020., many of us live in comfort, have access to various sources of entertainment at home and often have more than needed.
But people complain about everything.
They have electricity, phone, food, hot water and a roof over their heads.
None of this existed.
But humanity survived much more serious circumstances and never lost the joy of life.

Maybe it's time to be less selfish, stop whining and crying

Spectacular Post! Thank You 🙏!

[JMintzer]

I mentioned about the health care workers (nurses, etc.) not wanting to get the vaccine and a poster thought I equated that with the stats on the doctors, which was not my intention. I merely wanted to point out that nurses and other health workers were not on board with the vaccinations and perhaps that was telling in some way.

Same...

[GeriS]

The first is cherry picking out of the bible--and not very relevant to the current situation--to suit one's own belief.


The second is a faith-based opinion that has nothing to do with science, from one of the original anti-vaxxers, talking about small pox vaccination. A hundred--hundred!-- years ago. Opinions and faith-based ideas that differ from what's empirically established is not valid science.

That's exactly the problem. There has been no science to prove masks work, the virus has never been isolated, the creator of the pcr test says it doesn't work, & the vaccines don't either.

[GeriS]

Ivermectin was what I wormed my horses with, what kind of doctor prescribes ivermectin for Covid????
ones that know it works along with hcq

[Jack58033]

Kafka lives!

[Jack58033]

How about a drink?

[GrumpyOldMan]

That's exactly the problem. There has been no science to prove masks work, the virus has never been isolated, the creator of the pcr test says it doesn't work, & the vaccines don't either.

All of this is false. Completely false.

[Ben Franklin]

The first is cherry picking out of the bible--and not very relevant to the current situation--to suit one's own belief.


The second is a faith-based opinion that has nothing to do with science, from one of the original anti-vaxxers, talking about small pox vaccination. A hundred--hundred!-- years ago. Opinions and faith-based ideas that differ from what's empirically established is not valid science.


Knowing that man created all of his goddesses and gods, all 12,000 plus of them makes me a non-religious person, but one who still wants to believe that consciousness survives death. Have you ever heard of Dr. Ian Stevenson and his research on reincarnation? He was responsible for Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia.

Division of Perceptual Studies | University of Virginia School of Medicine (https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/)

I am reminded of the saying about god not saving one from harm. This is a slightly different version. A religious person who refused to get the vaccination died and upon getting to the pearly gates asked god why "he" didn't save her. God replied, I tried. I sent you the vaccine.

[MDLNB]

That's exactly the problem. There has been no science to prove masks work, the virus has never been isolated, the creator of the pcr test says it doesn't work, & the vaccines don't either.


Kinda harsh. Although, like the rest of us you have the right to your opinion.
I believe that masks do FILTER but most that you see would not keep the covid out.
I am not sure what they really know about the virus.
I think you may be pretty close to correct regarding the useless nature of the test. They are reportedly going to discontinue it since they say it can't tell the difference between the flu and the covid.
I hope the vaccines work. For the sake of all that are now going back to normal activities.
That's my opinion on the subject.

[GrumpyOldMan]

An unvaccinated righteous person died and went to heaven. Upon arrival they asked God, why didn't you save me.

God answered, "I tried. I sent you the vaccine."

[lkagele]

All of this is false. Completely false.

Not exactly. There are studies out there that find masks are not effective, especially the type the majority are wearing. All you have to do is look at them. There are numerous gaps that allow the virus through. The virus goes through the cloth masks. Maybe if worn properly, the N95 masks would work but few are wearing those.

If you want a 'mask' to work, you need a respirator, the type you see body shop painters using. There is a definite seal around the mouth and nose. Air passes through a filter that captures any virus.

[Malsua]

Not exactly. There are studies out there that find masks are not effective, especially the type the majority are wearing. All you have to do is look at them. There are numerous gaps that allow the virus through. The virus goes through the cloth masks. Maybe if worn properly, the N95 masks would work but few are wearing those.

If you want a 'mask' to work, you need a respirator, the type you see body shop painters using. There is a definite seal around the mouth and nose. Air passes through a filter that captures any virus.

This. Paper masks, cloth masks and similar can block droplets. They are essentially invisible to aerosols. The predominant mode of transmission of Sars-cov2 is aerosols. There is some droplet transmission, but if you aren't around people sneezing in your mouth, that one is easily avoidable.

Back in 2009, I was painting our house in NJ with an airless sprayer. I bought some of those blue masks, figuring it'd do something. It didn't do anything. My beard under the mask was just as covered as what was outside of the mask.

I used to infrequently paint cars in the late 80s, so I grabbed one of those old smelly full faced ones, put a new filter in it and finished the job.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Not exactly. There are studies out there that find masks are not effective, especially the type the majority are wearing. All you have to do is look at them. There are numerous gaps that allow the virus through. The virus goes through the cloth masks. Maybe if worn properly, the N95 masks would work but few are wearing those.

If you want a 'mask' to work, you need a respirator, the type you see body shop painters using. There is a definite seal around the mouth and nose. Air passes through a filter that captures any virus.

This is the original post: " There has been no science to prove masks work"

That is FALSE. Period.

There is plenty of science to prove masks work. Their "job" is to reduce the chance to spread the virus - either in getting or giving it.

Now, if you want to say, as you did, that some masks are more effective than others. I agree N95 is the most effective generally available mask. But even it has to be fitted correctly.

To make a categorical statement that masks don't work is just misinformation.

[RICH1]

Herd Immunity is a fantasy! Let's stay real and start living life.. if Covid was so bad, all retirement community's would be wiped off the map.. cut back on the smokes and free love

[Bay Kid]

It is so sad that we have become a world that we cannot believe anyone.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

I accept the premise of your post which is why I simply do not understand our government's lack of interest in therapeutics?

Our Govt, meaning the US, as there are many govt around the world, is now populated with people who love being in power more than being a leader. Most have never had to lead in the true sense of the word, which includes shared sacrifice.

Also, the supreme court decision which allowed corporations to act as voting entities allowing political contributions has created a third party to the people electing government officials, and they have much deeper pockets than individuals.

I urge all of you to read Tom Nichol's book, "Our Own Worst Enemy: The Assault from within on Modern Democracy"
Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Our-Own-Worst-Enemy-Democracy/dp/0197518877)

You can see this happening very slowly within the political organization of "The Villages"

and yes, you and I (the royal we) are all still humans with all the normal human foibles available to us to falter with, the most common being believing in stories but weighting negative stories much more heavily for survival. ..

almost retired guy
president of my high school's internet debate club

[kkingston57]

Just a thought and too late now, but the politicians should have considered giving the stimulus money to vaccinated persons only.

Have 2 nieces from a sister and a niece and nephew from brother. 2 of the 4 will not get vaccinated. Guess which ones, based upon Grade Point Average, are not getting jabbed?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Just a thought and too late now, but the politicians should have considered giving the stimulus money to vaccinated persons only.

Have 2 nieces from a sister and a niece and nephew from brother. 2 of the 4 will not get vaccinated. Guess which ones, based upon Grade Point Average, are not getting jabbed?

I disagree, it is not too late now. It has been suggested (in this thread or another on here) that a $5,000 check go with each jab.

[Swoop]

Just a thought and too late now, but the politicians should have considered giving the stimulus money to vaccinated persons only.

Have 2 nieces from a sister and a niece and nephew from brother. 2 of the 4 will not get vaccinated. Guess which ones, based upon Grade Point Average, are not getting jabbed?

The ones with the higher GPA decided against getting vaccinated…

[Bay Kid]

No welfare payments until you are vaccinated. That should do the trick. Also go look for a job!

[JMintzer]

No welfare payments until you are vaccinated. That should do the trick. Also go look for a job!

It'll never pass the SCOTUS...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

No welfare payments until you are vaccinated. That should do the trick. Also go look for a job!

Sure, the ones who are least likely to have access to the vaccine are the ones you want to punish.

Federal funding of the vaccine is NOT distributed evenly throughout this country.

[JMintzer]

Sure, the ones who are least likely to have access to the vaccine are the ones you want to punish.

Federal funding of the vaccine is NOT distributed evenly throughout this country.

Correct...

Here in DC, they concentrated the vaccine disbursement in the poorer parts of the city before giving it to the richer parts of town...

Wait a sec... That's not what you meant at all!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Correct...

Here in DC, they concentrated the vaccine disbursement in the poorer parts of the city before giving it to the richer parts of town...

Wait a sec... That's not what you meant at all!

Yup, that's right, and that is one out of 20,000 cities in the US.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Correct...

Here in DC, they concentrated the vaccine disbursement in the poorer parts of the city before giving it to the richer parts of town...

Wait a sec... That's not what you meant at all!

Here in Florida, they concentrated it on one very exclusive batch of the absolute wealthiest and politically-connected first. Then they gave it to the Seniors. Then the essential workers but only over a certain age. Then the plebians were allowed to get it.

[fishon]

The CDC announced that we can beat the Delta and Lambda variants if we just self isolate for fourteen days and mask up…….

Uh, hold the phone. I’ll get back to you.

[JMintzer]

Yup, that's right, and that is one out of 20,000 cities in the US.

You don't think the same thing was done all across the country?

[golfing eagles]

Here in Florida, they concentrated it on one very exclusive batch of the absolute wealthiest and politically-connected first. Then they gave it to the Seniors. Then the essential workers but only over a certain age. Then the plebians were allowed to get it.

Agree the order was seniors, essential worker then everyone else. But would you care to cite a source that substantiates that the vaccine was first given to an "exclusive batch of the absolute wealthiest and politically-connected". And don't include a photo op where politicians received the vaccine in public to show people it was safe.

[golfing eagles]

The CDC announced that we can beat the Delta and Lambda variants if we just self isolate for fourteen days and mask up…….

Uh, hold the phone. I’ll get back to you.

Yep, looks like they're back to those magic masks again.

[GrumpyOldMan]

You don't think the same thing was done all across the country?

No, do you?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Yep, looks like they're back to those magic masks again.

You left out the self isolate part.

I have not read that advice, but I expect it is out of context. IF everyone in the world stayed home for 14 days (I expect it needs to be a little longer) then the virus would mostly disappear (assuming it hasn't jumped to wild animals).

But, yeah, let's shut down everything for 14 days - hospitals, factories, farms, everything.

So, that is not going to happen, so I would have to read their comment to see what they actually said.

[golfing eagles]

You left out the self isolate part.

I have not read that advice, but I expect it is out of context. IF everyone in the world stayed home for 14 days (I expect it needs to be a little longer) then the virus would mostly disappear (assuming it hasn't jumped to wild animals).

But, yeah, let's shut down everything for 14 days - hospitals, factories, farms, everything.

So, that is not going to happen, so I would have to read their comment to see what they actually said.

Here's the post I was responding to:

"The CDC announced that we can beat the Delta and Lambda variants if we just self isolate for fourteen days and mask up…….

Uh, hold the phone. I’ll get back to you"

So yes, I agree, there must be more to it.

[Escape Artist]

Yup, that's right, and that is one out of 20,000 cities in the US.

They did it in California, too, as state policy - equity!

[drducat]

You left out the self isolate part.

I have not read that advice, but I expect it is out of context. IF everyone in the world stayed home for 14 days (I expect it needs to be a little longer) then the virus would mostly disappear (assuming it hasn't jumped to wild animals).

But, yeah, let's shut down everything for 14 days - hospitals, factories, farms, everything.

So, that is not going to happen, so I would have to read their comment to see what they actually said.

Not so fast...........

"Wrong again. The number of cases
@CDCgov
released for Florida today is incorrect. They combined MULTIPLE days into one. We anticipate CDC will correct the record.":popcorn:

https://twitter.com/HealthyFla/status/1424902635749101571?s=20

Gotta watch the CDC..Not being truthful :evil6:

[Bill14564]

Not so fast...........

"Wrong again. The number of cases
@CDCgov
released for Florida today is incorrect. They combined MULTIPLE days into one. We anticipate CDC will correct the record.":popcorn:

https://twitter.com/HealthyFla/status/1424902635749101571?s=20

Gotta watch the CDC..Not being truthful :evil6:

Isn't that a bit like arguing that your speedometer showed 95mph so there is no way you were doing 120mph?

[Altavia]

Not so fast...........

"Wrong again. The number of cases
@CDCgov
released for Florida today is incorrect. They combined MULTIPLE days into one. We anticipate CDC will correct the record.":popcorn:

https://twitter.com/HealthyFla/status/1424902635749101571?s=20

Gotta watch the CDC..Not being truthful :evil6:

Florida needs to go back to reporting daily numbers...

[drducat]

Isn't that a bit like arguing that your speedometer showed 95mph so there is no way you were doing 120mph?

My speedo is accurate not like the info the CDC is putting out.

[golfing eagles]

My speedo is accurate not like the info the CDC is putting out.

So,

CDC= inaccurate
that post= accurate

Hmmmm........

[Bay Kid]

Florida needs to go back to reporting daily numbers...

In the area with the heaviest number of new cases is there an influx of new people? Just curious. Tenn. is seeing heavier numbers where new people were relocated.

[MDLNB]

I agree NO ONE gets out of this alive, so why bother trying.

Let's close all the hospitals, no more bypass operations, no more treatments for any diseases are allowed. Why bother, better to just let them all die and make more room for the rest of us.

Let's remove ALL the stop signs and traffic lights.

And we can save all that money we spend trying to keep food safe.

There is no end to ways we can save money and stress, just let everyone die.

Is it okay if your grandchildren go first? I mean they are going to die anyway.


My grandchildren have had the virus and shrugged it off easier than a cold. And yes they were tested and found positive for Covid. They'll probably do better than the ones that will eventually get vaccinated. Who knows?

Life is not all black and white regardless of what a certain group of people like to think. It is not "if you believe this then you also believe that."

[coffeebean]

Since all (vaccinated or not) are now seen as major spreaders of the contagious Delta variant, the only differentiator is who gets sick. Why are you (no one specific; just the reader in general) all worried about those not willing to get vaccinated (me and millions of others)? It's not like the unvaccinated are a special risk to anyone. Your fellow vaccinated citizen is just as likely to be infected and contagious as all the talking heads are saying right now.

All you vaccinated folk can infect each other without any help from me or others. You can also catch and spread the virus to all the "vulnerable" population (elderly, sick, immune compromised, etc) all by yourselves.

So, why the passports? Lockdowns? Masks? F*cking the economy up? Now, it's even move obvious that it's all about control. The only people at risk are those CHOOSING not to get vaccinated. Let me take my risk. Don't worry about me. Go about your lives.

It would now seem, given the current parameters, that we should just put COVID-19 on ignore. According to the experts, there is no reason to ask anyone "are you vaccinated?" as your behavior should be the same no matter what the answer. The unwashed masses are not more likely to be infected / contagious / dangerous than all those who chose the path of putting an experimental cocktail in their arm (twice).

It boils down to this fact: The various rules then are simply to coerce vaccination.

Spin it anyway you like but the fact remains folks who are vaccinated pose much less of a threat for spreading the Delta variant than unvaccinated people........

Delta Variant: What We Know About the Science | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html)

[coffeebean]

This quote is taken from the link you provided: “He adds that his team's analysis shows that almost every single one of the 100 million unvaccinated Americans who hasn't had COVID-19 yet will likely get it in the coming months”.
Based on that, we will achieve herd immunity pretty quickly…

Based on that those un-vaccinated people will also be offering up the ability for the virus to mutate and create all sorts of new variants. Oh joy of joys!

[coffeebean]

Get the shots and we will get to Herd immunity quicker.

Get the shots and we can prevent those impending variants while we are at it. Get a clue.

[coffeebean]

Via the words of the CDC's own director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, vaccines are now failing, and vaccinated people may now carry higher viral loads than unvaccinated people, contributing to the spread of covid.
The vaccine hoax is now collapsing as vaccinated people are now catching the "delta" variant and spreading it to other vaccinated people. Even worse, the vaxxed are the "super-breeders" who are incubating yet more dangerous vaccine-immune covid mutations.
Thus, people who signed up to be vaccinated not only got played by the CDC, they are now the super-spreaders and super-breeders who are worsening the entire pandemic.
I do not think our CDC director said any of this. Kindly supply a source for "her words". Better yet.....how about a video so I can see her say those things with my own eyes and ears. Thanks.

[biker1]

Presumably, the vast majority of the readers of this forum have been vaccinated. I would guess the number is well in excess of 90% based on what I have seen from the CDC. So, I am not sure who you are preaching to. Regarding variants, the Delta variant was first observed in India. Since only about 25% of the world's population has been fully vaccinated, the opportunities for variants is, and will continue to be, huge. I would suggest that you get a clue because you appear to be focused on the inconsequential (a relatively small number of people in The Villages who, for whatever reason, haven't been vaccinated) and seem to spend the better part of your day fixated on this forum.

Get the shots and we can prevent those impending variants while we are at it. Get a clue.

[coffeebean]

No one escapes this life, alive. You can use all the makeup and botox you want and look young, but you ain't young and will DIE eventually. If it ain't COVID it's war or terrorism or a building collapse.

I get what you are saying BUT......I prefer to depart this life later than sooner. I will continue to eat right (well, most of the time), exercise and keep my mind sharp (well sort of anyway) and love life.

[coffeebean]

Not true. That is false information.

Not false at all. I could link several stats but will go to the naughty room so won't do it. The information is to be had. Just go to reliable sources.