Death of Spanish Springs

[Polish Golfer]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center. The various activities at Katie Belle’s were an attraction from late morning to late evening for many people that brought life to Spanish Springs. Now the Spanish Springs Town Square resembles a ghost town most of the day except for scheduled events and a couple of bar/restaurants that feature live music from midafternoon until no later than 5 p.m. prior to the music entertainment starting in the respective squares.
Currently the people working at businesses and their client/customers located on the second floor of the Spanish Springs Town Square buildings do patronize the local restaurants and stores. When the second floor businesses move to another location, consequently there will be less activity and less people. A limited amount of proposed apartment dwellers will further exacerbate the diminished people activity and cause negative business issues.
The onus, to date, is put on Lady Lake commissioners to change their determination going forward with apartments or business as usual in Spanish Springs. Lady Lake will not issue or change a zoning restriction to place businesses in a residential area of the town, but the commissioners are asked by The Villages to make a zoning change to place residential dwellings in zoned business areas.
There are approximately 8,000 Village residents that live within the Town of Lady Lake city limits. There are approximately, mean average depending on seasonal times, 100,000 plus Village residents that live within The Villages boundaries. By definition these 100,000 Village residents have “NO STANDING” in the Town of Lady Lake for any outcome forthcoming from the Lady Lake Commission that will determine the future of Spanish Springs Town Center and Katie Belle’s. Yet The Villages residents are affected the most by the outcome. How does that work? Kind of like the proverbial quote, “The tail wagging the dog.” Many Village residents chose to purchase homes in The Villages because of the lifestyle as influenced by the amenities and entertainment predicated on what Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center offered. Although the appearance and programs for the newer squares varied and different neighborhoods developed, the camaraderie and lifestyle remained the same. The Villages grew according to this matrix and the Developer profited because of Village home sales, again based on the Spanish Springs lifestyle as presented. Most Village residents truly believe that The Villages is by far the best retirement place, but are disappointed by the lifestyle change as petitioned. Are there any fiduciary responsibilities The Villages have to the residents for proposing major lifestyle changes based on what was initially offered and what is now presented without any residents’ input?
There are many proposals presented in the Town of Lady Lake, Fruitland Park, Leesburg, Wildwood, Summerfield and other areas for apartments and additional high density living complexes. These apartments propose offering renters a very competitive rate. The concept for these apartments is to accommodate people that work in The Villages.
The Villages already is building apartment complexes and duplex housing in Wildwood not far from Brownwood Paddock Square that blend in with this area as developed and do not detract from Brownwood activities. The a la carte Lofts at Brownwood have not reached full occupancy even though rental rates were reduced to attract apartment dwellers. Up-charges for garages and additional storage places with no personal help for car parking, carrying groceries, etc. as provided in upscale apartments.
With the apartments under construction around and outside of the Spanish Springs area, a need for professional services, lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. will become a necessity. The second floor offices of the Spanish Springs Town Center buildings will need a little compound and simonizing to facilitate professional services as such, but nowhere near the expense of apartment conversions. All that is needed is The Villages Marketing Department put their sales hats on and sell this concept to promote what is available with minor building changes and no dedicated parking places.
The Van Patten Building is a little more complex since over the years changes were made to Katie Belle’s that contributed to the dining dance hall’s demise. Restaurants project their cash flow based on the amount of tables available to patrons. Contrary to Katie Belle’s removing the tables and closing the dining room section. Many in the restaurant business consider this endeavor as occupational suicide. Even with the elimination of the dining room, there was an attraction for people to participate in various activities going-on at Katie Belle’s. The square actually had people walking around in late morning till mid-afternoon and some people waiting for music to start in the square. The move upstairs wrote the epitaph for Katie Belle’s.
Consideration for the Developers’ risk to build The Villages is most important. The residents are not privy to what the ups and downs are/were to make The Villages what it is today. The undertaking of an endeavor of building The Villages most likely had some good days and bad days. There is a consensus of opinion among residents that the Developer only wants to make more money without any thoughtful regard of the investment the Developer made to make The Villages what it is today. There also should be some consideration for the residents that purchased homes in The Villages that helped the Developer make The Villages the best place to live and retire.
So what happens to Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center? Since there are a majority of residents that recognize Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs as the draw as it was when in full operation, they should have a voice in what is happening to these places and what the future holds. There are even new residents that recently purchased homes in Fenney that heard about Katie Belle’s and ask questions why it is closed. If the fact is that Katie Belle’s lost money when in operation, none of this information was brought to the residents. By precluding The Village residents from any decision pertaining to the future of Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center only breeds contempt throughout the resident population. The residents were never given the opportunity to correct any issues that contributed to the close of Katie Belle’s.
The Van Patten Building because of its location in Spanish Springs Town Center has a much better potential than a rental property offers. Since financial issues over the last 25 years are the word out of The Villages office, particulars never divulged, Katie Belle’s was unilaterally altered through the years and ultimately shut down with no consideration from the residents. The Village residents could correct this situation if given the opportunity.
There are many very talented business oriented individuals that live in The Villages that can make Katie Belle’s profitable. There are millions of dollars spent by the AAC and PWAC to construct new or refurbish recreational facilities with a lot of overhead but virtually have no cash flow. The residents pay for these places either through amenity fees or taxes. Suggest putting Katie Belle’s back the way it was in the beginning of The Villages and let the residents manage the operations. If capital is required for daily operations until a profit is established, raise the amenity fee per household. With the number of houses now in The Villages every $1 equates to approximately one million dollars per year. This funding can be used for required alterations and to put Katie Belle’s back in business.
Suggest building a brew pub/restaurant/dance hall operation or casino with entertainment and restaurant. This will bring jobs and taxes to this area, and most important, life. Apartments will only be the demise of Spanish Springs and the Van Patten Building.
The Village Machine never stops. Village managers, vice presidents, lawyers and authoritarian personnel reach out to anybody in a position that will agree and authorize what The Villages propose. In this particular proposal, why not ask The Villages residents?
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.

[PugMom]

was Katie-Belle's a village property? i was under the belief it was a commercial business, independently owned. maybe i'm wrong, idk

[graciegirl]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center. The various activities at Katie Belle’s were an attraction from late morning to late evening for many people that brought life to Spanish Springs. Now the Spanish Springs Town Square resembles a ghost town most of the day except for scheduled events and a couple of bar/restaurants that feature live music from midafternoon until no later than 5 p.m. prior to the music entertainment starting in the respective squares.
Currently the people working at businesses and their client/customers located on the second floor of the Spanish Springs Town Square buildings do patronize the local restaurants and stores. When the second floor businesses move to another location, consequently there will be less activity and less people. A limited amount of proposed apartment dwellers will further exacerbate the diminished people activity and cause negative business issues.
The onus, to date, is put on Lady Lake commissioners to change their determination going forward with apartments or business as usual in Spanish Springs. Lady Lake will not issue or change a zoning restriction to place businesses in a residential area of the town, but the commissioners are asked by The Villages to make a zoning change to place residential dwellings in zoned business areas.
There are approximately 8,000 Village residents that live within the Town of Lady Lake city limits. There are approximately, mean average depending on seasonal times, 100,000 plus Village residents that live within The Villages boundaries. By definition these 100,000 Village residents have “NO STANDING” in the Town of Lady Lake for any outcome forthcoming from the Lady Lake Commission that will determine the future of Spanish Springs Town Center and Katie Belle’s. Yet The Villages residents are affected the most by the outcome. How does that work? Kind of like the proverbial quote, “The tail wagging the dog.” Many Village residents chose to purchase homes in The Villages because of the lifestyle as influenced by the amenities and entertainment predicated on what Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center offered. Although the appearance and programs for the newer squares varied and different neighborhoods developed, the camaraderie and lifestyle remained the same. The Villages grew according to this matrix and the Developer profited because of Village home sales, again based on the Spanish Springs lifestyle as presented. Most Village residents truly believe that The Villages is by far the best retirement place, but are disappointed by the lifestyle change as petitioned. Are there any fiduciary responsibilities The Villages have to the residents for proposing major lifestyle changes based on what was initially offered and what is now presented without any residents’ input?
There are many proposals presented in the Town of Lady Lake, Fruitland Park, Leesburg, Wildwood, Summerfield and other areas for apartments and additional high density living complexes. These apartments propose offering renters a very competitive rate. The concept for these apartments is to accommodate people that work in The Villages.
The Villages already is building apartment complexes and duplex housing in Wildwood not far from Brownwood Paddock Square that blend in with this area as developed and do not detract from Brownwood activities. The a la carte Lofts at Brownwood have not reached full occupancy even though rental rates were reduced to attract apartment dwellers. Up-charges for garages and additional storage places with no personal help for car parking, carrying groceries, etc. as provided in upscale apartments.
With the apartments under construction around and outside of the Spanish Springs area, a need for professional services, lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. will become a necessity. The second floor offices of the Spanish Springs Town Center buildings will need a little compound and simonizing to facilitate professional services as such, but nowhere near the expense of apartment conversions. All that is needed is The Villages Marketing Department put their sales hats on and sell this concept to promote what is available with minor building changes and no dedicated parking places.
The Van Patten Building is a little more complex since over the years changes were made to Katie Belle’s that contributed to the dining dance hall’s demise. Restaurants project their cash flow based on the amount of tables available to patrons. Contrary to Katie Belle’s removing the tables and closing the dining room section. Many in the restaurant business consider this endeavor as occupational suicide. Even with the elimination of the dining room, there was an attraction for people to participate in various activities going-on at Katie Belle’s. The square actually had people walking around in late morning till mid-afternoon and some people waiting for music to start in the square. The move upstairs wrote the epitaph for Katie Belle’s.
Consideration for the Developers’ risk to build The Villages is most important. The residents are not privy to what the ups and downs are/were to make The Villages what it is today. The undertaking of an endeavor of building The Villages most likely had some good days and bad days. There is a consensus of opinion among residents that the Developer only wants to make more money without any thoughtful regard of the investment the Developer made to make The Villages what it is today. There also should be some consideration for the residents that purchased homes in The Villages that helped the Developer make The Villages the best place to live and retire.
So what happens to Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center? Since there are a majority of residents that recognize Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs as the draw as it was when in full operation, they should have a voice in what is happening to these places and what the future holds. There are even new residents that recently purchased homes in Fenney that heard about Katie Belle’s and ask questions why it is closed. If the fact is that Katie Belle’s lost money when in operation, none of this information was brought to the residents. By precluding The Village residents from any decision pertaining to the future of Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center only breeds contempt throughout the resident population. The residents were never given the opportunity to correct any issues that contributed to the close of Katie Belle’s.
The Van Patten Building because of its location in Spanish Springs Town Center has a much better potential than a rental property offers. Since financial issues over the last 25 years are the word out of The Villages office, particulars never divulged, Katie Belle’s was unilaterally altered through the years and ultimately shut down with no consideration from the residents. The Village residents could correct this situation if given the opportunity.
There are many very talented business oriented individuals that live in The Villages that can make Katie Belle’s profitable. There are millions of dollars spent by the AAC and PWAC to construct new or refurbish recreational facilities with a lot of overhead but virtually have no cash flow. The residents pay for these places either through amenity fees or taxes. Suggest putting Katie Belle’s back the way it was in the beginning of The Villages and let the residents manage the operations. If capital is required for daily operations until a profit is established, raise the amenity fee per household. With the number of houses now in The Villages every $1 equates to approximately one million dollars per year. This funding can be used for required alterations and to put Katie Belle’s back in business.
Suggest building a brew pub/restaurant/dance hall operation or casino with entertainment and restaurant. This will bring jobs and taxes to this area, and most important, life. Apartments will only be the demise of Spanish Springs and the Van Patten Building.
The Village Machine never stops. Village managers, vice presidents, lawyers and authoritarian personnel reach out to anybody in a position that will agree and authorize what The Villages propose. In this particular proposal, why not ask The Villages residents?
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.



Katie Belles died because it failed to get enough business. Katie Bells was initially built and started by The Villages and then leased and ran by another entity. That is the business model they have used. Get things going and then turn over to someone to rent and run. I don't think anyone runs anything as well as The Villages do, but they have enormous cash reserves, to be fair and that is what it takes. Managing income and cash expenditures and making a profit.

People often have great ideas about what kind of business they wish were here or the kind of restaurant that they think would work, but the truth is this. A business has to want to commit to come here and do business here. Much is said about the high rent and percentages charged by The Villages, but it is what the traffic will allow and is common in successful tourist destination areas to be able to charge high rents. I have observed that the typical lease is five years and it requires that business to manage the ebb and flo of very high population for a small part of the time and the much lower population during the rest of the time. That goes for hiring help too.

[Bogie Shooter]

Inviting the inmates to run the asylum.
Put me down as a no.

[Two Bills]

""For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center.""

....and like many stores that stop making a profit, the businesses fail, just as Katie Belles did.
Don't think using amenity fees to prop up an establishment that would probably tank again, is going to be very popular.
New generations are filling TV with different interests and tastes, KB's may have been the bees knees 15 or so years ago, but should stay as it is now.
A fond memory for some.

JMTC

[Escape Artist]

""For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center.""

....and like many stores that stop making a profit, the businesses fail, just as Katie Belles did.
Don't think using amenity fees to prop up an establishment that would probably tank again, is going to be very popular.
New generations are filling TV with different interests and tastes, KB's may have been the bees knees 15 or so years ago, but should stay as it is now.
A fond memory for some.

JMTC

Was it a restaurant? Why did it stop being popular with residents of TV? Could it just be the natural order of things, i.e. new squares being built, the population growth in the new areas, etc.

[gatorbill1]

The only problem with apartments at the squares is that the parking will become harder to find because they will probably be assigned to the apartments, this will drive down attendance, which will eliminate the free entertainment available now.

[Road-Runner]

I would think apartments right on top of an outdoor music venue is not a good idea for most renters! What I'd be worried about is the same thing that happens when people build houses right beside a race track and then have it shut down because of the noise. The same thing is absolutely going to happen in Spanish Springs. The Villages should get involved when an amenity like a town square is going to be made unusable by allowing residential in a strictly commercial space.

[billethkid]

The only problem with apartments at the squares is that the parking will become harder to find because they will probably be assigned to the apartments, this will drive down attendance, which will eliminate the free entertainment available now.

And then there will be first floor availability for apartments!

[rustyp]

Katie Belles died because it failed to get enough business. Katie Bells was initially built and started by The Villages and then leased and ran by another entity. That is the business model they have used. Get things going and then turn over to someone to rent and run. I don't think anyone runs anything as well as The Villages do, but they have enormous cash reserves, to be fair and that is what it takes. Managing income and cash expenditures and making a profit.

People often have great ideas about what kind of business they wish were here or the kind of restaurant that they think would work, but the truth is this. A business has to want to commit to come here and do business here. Much is said about the high rent and percentages charged by The Villages, but it is what the traffic will allow and is common in successful tourist destination areas to be able to charge high rents. I have observed that the typical lease is five years and it requires that business to manage the ebb and flo of very high population for a small part of the time and the much lower population during the rest of the time. That goes for hiring help too.

Total BS - site your source besides hearsay.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

My attention span won't even allow me to enjoy cartoons that exceed one panel, so....

[vintageogauge]

The bowling alley takes up a lot more parking spots than the apartments will.
.

[JoMar]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center. The various activities at Katie Belle’s were an attraction from late morning to late evening for many people that brought life to Spanish Springs. Now the Spanish Springs Town Square resembles a ghost town most of the day except for scheduled events and a couple of bar/restaurants that feature live music from midafternoon until no later than 5 p.m. prior to the music entertainment starting in the respective squares.
Currently the people working at businesses and their client/customers located on the second floor of the Spanish Springs Town Square buildings do patronize the local restaurants and stores. When the second floor businesses move to another location, consequently there will be less activity and less people. A limited amount of proposed apartment dwellers will further exacerbate the diminished people activity and cause negative business issues.
The onus, to date, is put on Lady Lake commissioners to change their determination going forward with apartments or business as usual in Spanish Springs. Lady Lake will not issue or change a zoning restriction to place businesses in a residential area of the town, but the commissioners are asked by The Villages to make a zoning change to place residential dwellings in zoned business areas.
There are approximately 8,000 Village residents that live within the Town of Lady Lake city limits. There are approximately, mean average depending on seasonal times, 100,000 plus Village residents that live within The Villages boundaries. By definition these 100,000 Village residents have “NO STANDING” in the Town of Lady Lake for any outcome forthcoming from the Lady Lake Commission that will determine the future of Spanish Springs Town Center and Katie Belle’s. Yet The Villages residents are affected the most by the outcome. How does that work? Kind of like the proverbial quote, “The tail wagging the dog.” Many Village residents chose to purchase homes in The Villages because of the lifestyle as influenced by the amenities and entertainment predicated on what Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center offered. Although the appearance and programs for the newer squares varied and different neighborhoods developed, the camaraderie and lifestyle remained the same. The Villages grew according to this matrix and the Developer profited because of Village home sales, again based on the Spanish Springs lifestyle as presented. Most Village residents truly believe that The Villages is by far the best retirement place, but are disappointed by the lifestyle change as petitioned. Are there any fiduciary responsibilities The Villages have to the residents for proposing major lifestyle changes based on what was initially offered and what is now presented without any residents’ input?
There are many proposals presented in the Town of Lady Lake, Fruitland Park, Leesburg, Wildwood, Summerfield and other areas for apartments and additional high density living complexes. These apartments propose offering renters a very competitive rate. The concept for these apartments is to accommodate people that work in The Villages.
The Villages already is building apartment complexes and duplex housing in Wildwood not far from Brownwood Paddock Square that blend in with this area as developed and do not detract from Brownwood activities. The a la carte Lofts at Brownwood have not reached full occupancy even though rental rates were reduced to attract apartment dwellers. Up-charges for garages and additional storage places with no personal help for car parking, carrying groceries, etc. as provided in upscale apartments.
With the apartments under construction around and outside of the Spanish Springs area, a need for professional services, lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. will become a necessity. The second floor offices of the Spanish Springs Town Center buildings will need a little compound and simonizing to facilitate professional services as such, but nowhere near the expense of apartment conversions. All that is needed is The Villages Marketing Department put their sales hats on and sell this concept to promote what is available with minor building changes and no dedicated parking places.
The Van Patten Building is a little more complex since over the years changes were made to Katie Belle’s that contributed to the dining dance hall’s demise. Restaurants project their cash flow based on the amount of tables available to patrons. Contrary to Katie Belle’s removing the tables and closing the dining room section. Many in the restaurant business consider this endeavor as occupational suicide. Even with the elimination of the dining room, there was an attraction for people to participate in various activities going-on at Katie Belle’s. The square actually had people walking around in late morning till mid-afternoon and some people waiting for music to start in the square. The move upstairs wrote the epitaph for Katie Belle’s.
Consideration for the Developers’ risk to build The Villages is most important. The residents are not privy to what the ups and downs are/were to make The Villages what it is today. The undertaking of an endeavor of building The Villages most likely had some good days and bad days. There is a consensus of opinion among residents that the Developer only wants to make more money without any thoughtful regard of the investment the Developer made to make The Villages what it is today. There also should be some consideration for the residents that purchased homes in The Villages that helped the Developer make The Villages the best place to live and retire.
So what happens to Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center? Since there are a majority of residents that recognize Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs as the draw as it was when in full operation, they should have a voice in what is happening to these places and what the future holds. There are even new residents that recently purchased homes in Fenney that heard about Katie Belle’s and ask questions why it is closed. If the fact is that Katie Belle’s lost money when in operation, none of this information was brought to the residents. By precluding The Village residents from any decision pertaining to the future of Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center only breeds contempt throughout the resident population. The residents were never given the opportunity to correct any issues that contributed to the close of Katie Belle’s.
The Van Patten Building because of its location in Spanish Springs Town Center has a much better potential than a rental property offers. Since financial issues over the last 25 years are the word out of The Villages office, particulars never divulged, Katie Belle’s was unilaterally altered through the years and ultimately shut down with no consideration from the residents. The Village residents could correct this situation if given the opportunity.
There are many very talented business oriented individuals that live in The Villages that can make Katie Belle’s profitable. There are millions of dollars spent by the AAC and PWAC to construct new or refurbish recreational facilities with a lot of overhead but virtually have no cash flow. The residents pay for these places either through amenity fees or taxes. Suggest putting Katie Belle’s back the way it was in the beginning of The Villages and let the residents manage the operations. If capital is required for daily operations until a profit is established, raise the amenity fee per household. With the number of houses now in The Villages every $1 equates to approximately one million dollars per year. This funding can be used for required alterations and to put Katie Belle’s back in business.
Suggest building a brew pub/restaurant/dance hall operation or casino with entertainment and restaurant. This will bring jobs and taxes to this area, and most important, life. Apartments will only be the demise of Spanish Springs and the Van Patten Building.
The Village Machine never stops. Village managers, vice presidents, lawyers and authoritarian personnel reach out to anybody in a position that will agree and authorize what The Villages propose. In this particular proposal, why not ask The Villages residents?
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.

I suspect that when the residents start writing checks and taking the investment risk the Developers take they may be asked, but since the residents take, don't give and always have the option to walk away, I don't think they will be asked.

[kkingston57]

We did not live here when Katie-Bells was here and can not comment regarding it's effects on Spanish Springs. Agree that there does seem to light foot traffic in the area. On other hand, when we do go to Brownwood, it does seem to us that they have same issue.

Personally I do feel that the proximity of businesses on 27/411 hurts Spanish Springs more than anything else. I can not count how many restaurants are on this road and within 1-2 miles of Spanish Springs,

[Bogie Shooter]

The only problem with apartments at the squares is that the parking will become harder to find because they will probably be assigned to the apartments, this will drive down attendance, which will eliminate the free entertainment available now.

How many parking spots were required for KB’s? Many more than a dozen apartments.

[graciegirl]

Total BS - site your source besides hearsay.

katie belles closing - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=katie+belles+closing&cvid=24ce39b3006646eeb48d02f77fad42be&aqs=edge.1.69i57j0.11889j0j1&pglt=43&FORM=ANSPA1&PC=DCTS)

[Dond1959]

I am being dead serious here. I have heard over and over what a great place KB was and how people miss it. If it was such a great business all of you that miss it so terribly should invest and bring it back. Go to the developer and present a proposal with investment and financing secured. I truly hope someone with the capital and experience will step up. If no one is willing to step up and put your money where your mouth is then you should probably stop talking about the good old days.

The developer owns the property and has a right to do what is legally allowed with the property. If apartments are allowed I am sure they will be done well and anyone moving into them will know there is music every night. I don’t see a few apartment owners overruling all the businesses around the square to stop the music.

[dewilson58]

I am being dead serious here. I have heard over and over what a great place KB was and how people miss it. If it was such a great business all of you that miss it so terribly should invest and bring it back. Go to the developer and present a proposal with investment and financing secured. I truly hope someone with the capital and experience will step up. If no one is willing to step up and put your money where your mouth is then you should probably stop talking about the good old days.

The developer owns the property and has a right to do what is legally allowed with the property. If apartments are allowed I am sure they will be done well and anyone moving into them will know there is music every night. I don’t see a few apartment owners overruling all the businesses around the square to stop the music.

:bigbow:

Was at KB a few times, never impressed.........stopped in hoping to be impressed. :ho:

[GrumpyOldMan]

I am being dead serious here. I have heard over and over what a great place KB was and how people miss it. If it was such a great business all of you that miss it so terribly should invest and bring it back. Go to the developer and present a proposal with investment and financing secured. I truly hope someone with the capital and experience will step up. If no one is willing to step up and put your money where your mouth is then you should probably stop talking about the good old days.

The developer owns the property and has a right to do what is legally allowed with the property. If apartments are allowed I am sure they will be done well and anyone moving into them will know there is music every night. I don’t see a few apartment owners overruling all the businesses around the square to stop the music.

You left out the "business plan" to show why it won't fail again, but ignoring that, I am sure your intent was to provide that.

I think I will add that the "family" has been successfully doing this for decades now. And the place is still growing, still making money, still maintained, still going strong.

I like businesses with a track record and a long-term plan. That seems to be missing in much of American business today - it is all short-term planning.

One of the deciding factors for me in moving here is that I expect based on the track record that my home will continue to gain value and be able to be liquidated quickly and easily when it comes time for our kids to inherit it.

Everyone thinks they KNOW the right thing to do, the family has proven they can make this work.

[gatorbill1]

How many parking spots were required for KB’s? Many more than a dozen apartments.

KB relied on open parking - they did not block off parking that people going to the square could not use

[asianthree]

07 KBs one dinner, on the developers. People dancing, salad bar, food was good, place was packed, with residents and might be residents.

2010, KBs our nickel , smaller salad bar, food good. Great place for people watching, and listening to “who does Ralph think he is bringing that trophy wife here”. Watching people buy drinks, upstairs having dinner, still packed, but less having dinner.

After that, food went down hill very fast. Less people eating dinner, more ordering a drink, and sitting at tables for hours. When they set the 2 drink minimum( not water), and food minimum, less people came. However we stopped taking guests there, due to the food quality.

But just my opinion, and maybe 10-12 dinners, so I am part of the problem that KBs closed

[Laker14]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center. The various activities at Katie Belle’s were an attraction from late morning to late evening for many people that brought life to Spanish Springs. Now the Spanish Springs Town Square resembles a ghost town most of the day except for scheduled events and a couple of bar/restaurants that feature live music from midafternoon until no later than 5 p.m. prior to the music entertainment starting in the respective squares.
Currently the people working at businesses and their client/customers located on the second floor of the Spanish Springs Town Square buildings do patronize the local restaurants and stores. When the second floor businesses move to another location, consequently there will be less activity and less people. A limited amount of proposed apartment dwellers will further exacerbate the diminished people activity and cause negative business issues.
The onus, to date, is put on Lady Lake commissioners to change their determination going forward with apartments or business as usual in Spanish Springs. Lady Lake will not issue or change a zoning restriction to place businesses in a residential area of the town, but the commissioners are asked by The Villages to make a zoning change to place residential dwellings in zoned business areas.
There are approximately 8,000 Village residents that live within the Town of Lady Lake city limits. There are approximately, mean average depending on seasonal times, 100,000 plus Village residents that live within The Villages boundaries. By definition these 100,000 Village residents have “NO STANDING” in the Town of Lady Lake for any outcome forthcoming from the Lady Lake Commission that will determine the future of Spanish Springs Town Center and Katie Belle’s. Yet The Villages residents are affected the most by the outcome. How does that work? Kind of like the proverbial quote, “The tail wagging the dog.” Many Village residents chose to purchase homes in The Villages because of the lifestyle as influenced by the amenities and entertainment predicated on what Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center offered. Although the appearance and programs for the newer squares varied and different neighborhoods developed, the camaraderie and lifestyle remained the same. The Villages grew according to this matrix and the Developer profited because of Village home sales, again based on the Spanish Springs lifestyle as presented. Most Village residents truly believe that The Villages is by far the best retirement place, but are disappointed by the lifestyle change as petitioned. Are there any fiduciary responsibilities The Villages have to the residents for proposing major lifestyle changes based on what was initially offered and what is now presented without any residents’ input?
There are many proposals presented in the Town of Lady Lake, Fruitland Park, Leesburg, Wildwood, Summerfield and other areas for apartments and additional high density living complexes. These apartments propose offering renters a very competitive rate. The concept for these apartments is to accommodate people that work in The Villages.
The Villages already is building apartment complexes and duplex housing in Wildwood not far from Brownwood Paddock Square that blend in with this area as developed and do not detract from Brownwood activities. The a la carte Lofts at Brownwood have not reached full occupancy even though rental rates were reduced to attract apartment dwellers. Up-charges for garages and additional storage places with no personal help for car parking, carrying groceries, etc. as provided in upscale apartments.
With the apartments under construction around and outside of the Spanish Springs area, a need for professional services, lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. will become a necessity. The second floor offices of the Spanish Springs Town Center buildings will need a little compound and simonizing to facilitate professional services as such, but nowhere near the expense of apartment conversions. All that is needed is The Villages Marketing Department put their sales hats on and sell this concept to promote what is available with minor building changes and no dedicated parking places.
The Van Patten Building is a little more complex since over the years changes were made to Katie Belle’s that contributed to the dining dance hall’s demise. Restaurants project their cash flow based on the amount of tables available to patrons. Contrary to Katie Belle’s removing the tables and closing the dining room section. Many in the restaurant business consider this endeavor as occupational suicide. Even with the elimination of the dining room, there was an attraction for people to participate in various activities going-on at Katie Belle’s. The square actually had people walking around in late morning till mid-afternoon and some people waiting for music to start in the square. The move upstairs wrote the epitaph for Katie Belle’s.
Consideration for the Developers’ risk to build The Villages is most important. The residents are not privy to what the ups and downs are/were to make The Villages what it is today. The undertaking of an endeavor of building The Villages most likely had some good days and bad days. There is a consensus of opinion among residents that the Developer only wants to make more money without any thoughtful regard of the investment the Developer made to make The Villages what it is today. There also should be some consideration for the residents that purchased homes in The Villages that helped the Developer make The Villages the best place to live and retire.
So what happens to Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center? Since there are a majority of residents that recognize Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs as the draw as it was when in full operation, they should have a voice in what is happening to these places and what the future holds. There are even new residents that recently purchased homes in Fenney that heard about Katie Belle’s and ask questions why it is closed. If the fact is that Katie Belle’s lost money when in operation, none of this information was brought to the residents. By precluding The Village residents from any decision pertaining to the future of Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center only breeds contempt throughout the resident population. The residents were never given the opportunity to correct any issues that contributed to the close of Katie Belle’s.
The Van Patten Building because of its location in Spanish Springs Town Center has a much better potential than a rental property offers. Since financial issues over the last 25 years are the word out of The Villages office, particulars never divulged, Katie Belle’s was unilaterally altered through the years and ultimately shut down with no consideration from the residents. The Village residents could correct this situation if given the opportunity.
There are many very talented business oriented individuals that live in The Villages that can make Katie Belle’s profitable. There are millions of dollars spent by the AAC and PWAC to construct new or refurbish recreational facilities with a lot of overhead but virtually have no cash flow. The residents pay for these places either through amenity fees or taxes. Suggest putting Katie Belle’s back the way it was in the beginning of The Villages and let the residents manage the operations. If capital is required for daily operations until a profit is established, raise the amenity fee per household. With the number of houses now in The Villages every $1 equates to approximately one million dollars per year. This funding can be used for required alterations and to put Katie Belle’s back in business.
Suggest building a brew pub/restaurant/dance hall operation or casino with entertainment and restaurant. This will bring jobs and taxes to this area, and most important, life. Apartments will only be the demise of Spanish Springs and the Van Patten Building.
The Village Machine never stops. Village managers, vice presidents, lawyers and authoritarian personnel reach out to anybody in a position that will agree and authorize what The Villages propose. In this particular proposal, why not ask The Villages residents?
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.

Everything will be fine. Life goes on. Things change, life goes on. Things will be different than before, but life will go on. Spanish Springs will be different than when Gary Morse drew it up on his napkin, but hey, when was that? How long do you think something can last, unchanged, in a retirement community, where the clientele changes over so rapidly?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Was it a restaurant? Why did it stop being popular with residents of TV? Could it just be the natural order of things, i.e. new squares being built, the population growth in the new areas, etc.

It was popular among Villagers who were willing to buy 2 sodas (2 drink minimum) and spend several hours not buying anything else, but taking up space that other paying customers couldn't occupy.

It went out of business because the business model wasn't sustainable.

[shut the front door]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center. The various activities at Katie Belle’s were an attraction from late morning to late evening for many people that brought life to Spanish Springs. Now the Spanish Springs Town Square resembles a ghost town most of the day except for scheduled events and a couple of bar/restaurants that feature live music from midafternoon until no later than 5 p.m. prior to the music entertainment starting in the respective squares.
Currently the people working at businesses and their client/customers located on the second floor of the Spanish Springs Town Square buildings do patronize the local restaurants and stores. When the second floor businesses move to another location, consequently there will be less activity and less people. A limited amount of proposed apartment dwellers will further exacerbate the diminished people activity and cause negative business issues.
The onus, to date, is put on Lady Lake commissioners to change their determination going forward with apartments or business as usual in Spanish Springs. Lady Lake will not issue or change a zoning restriction to place businesses in a residential area of the town, but the commissioners are asked by The Villages to make a zoning change to place residential dwellings in zoned business areas.
There are approximately 8,000 Village residents that live within the Town of Lady Lake city limits. There are approximately, mean average depending on seasonal times, 100,000 plus Village residents that live within The Villages boundaries. By definition these 100,000 Village residents have “NO STANDING” in the Town of Lady Lake for any outcome forthcoming from the Lady Lake Commission that will determine the future of Spanish Springs Town Center and Katie Belle’s. Yet The Villages residents are affected the most by the outcome. How does that work? Kind of like the proverbial quote, “The tail wagging the dog.” Many Village residents chose to purchase homes in The Villages because of the lifestyle as influenced by the amenities and entertainment predicated on what Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center offered. Although the appearance and programs for the newer squares varied and different neighborhoods developed, the camaraderie and lifestyle remained the same. The Villages grew according to this matrix and the Developer profited because of Village home sales, again based on the Spanish Springs lifestyle as presented. Most Village residents truly believe that The Villages is by far the best retirement place, but are disappointed by the lifestyle change as petitioned. Are there any fiduciary responsibilities The Villages have to the residents for proposing major lifestyle changes based on what was initially offered and what is now presented without any residents’ input?
There are many proposals presented in the Town of Lady Lake, Fruitland Park, Leesburg, Wildwood, Summerfield and other areas for apartments and additional high density living complexes. These apartments propose offering renters a very competitive rate. The concept for these apartments is to accommodate people that work in The Villages.
The Villages already is building apartment complexes and duplex housing in Wildwood not far from Brownwood Paddock Square that blend in with this area as developed and do not detract from Brownwood activities. The a la carte Lofts at Brownwood have not reached full occupancy even though rental rates were reduced to attract apartment dwellers. Up-charges for garages and additional storage places with no personal help for car parking, carrying groceries, etc. as provided in upscale apartments.
With the apartments under construction around and outside of the Spanish Springs area, a need for professional services, lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. will become a necessity. The second floor offices of the Spanish Springs Town Center buildings will need a little compound and simonizing to facilitate professional services as such, but nowhere near the expense of apartment conversions. All that is needed is The Villages Marketing Department put their sales hats on and sell this concept to promote what is available with minor building changes and no dedicated parking places.
The Van Patten Building is a little more complex since over the years changes were made to Katie Belle’s that contributed to the dining dance hall’s demise. Restaurants project their cash flow based on the amount of tables available to patrons. Contrary to Katie Belle’s removing the tables and closing the dining room section. Many in the restaurant business consider this endeavor as occupational suicide. Even with the elimination of the dining room, there was an attraction for people to participate in various activities going-on at Katie Belle’s. The square actually had people walking around in late morning till mid-afternoon and some people waiting for music to start in the square. The move upstairs wrote the epitaph for Katie Belle’s.
Consideration for the Developers’ risk to build The Villages is most important. The residents are not privy to what the ups and downs are/were to make The Villages what it is today. The undertaking of an endeavor of building The Villages most likely had some good days and bad days. There is a consensus of opinion among residents that the Developer only wants to make more money without any thoughtful regard of the investment the Developer made to make The Villages what it is today. There also should be some consideration for the residents that purchased homes in The Villages that helped the Developer make The Villages the best place to live and retire.
So what happens to Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center? Since there are a majority of residents that recognize Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs as the draw as it was when in full operation, they should have a voice in what is happening to these places and what the future holds. There are even new residents that recently purchased homes in Fenney that heard about Katie Belle’s and ask questions why it is closed. If the fact is that Katie Belle’s lost money when in operation, none of this information was brought to the residents. By precluding The Village residents from any decision pertaining to the future of Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center only breeds contempt throughout the resident population. The residents were never given the opportunity to correct any issues that contributed to the close of Katie Belle’s.
The Van Patten Building because of its location in Spanish Springs Town Center has a much better potential than a rental property offers. Since financial issues over the last 25 years are the word out of The Villages office, particulars never divulged, Katie Belle’s was unilaterally altered through the years and ultimately shut down with no consideration from the residents. The Village residents could correct this situation if given the opportunity.
There are many very talented business oriented individuals that live in The Villages that can make Katie Belle’s profitable. There are millions of dollars spent by the AAC and PWAC to construct new or refurbish recreational facilities with a lot of overhead but virtually have no cash flow. The residents pay for these places either through amenity fees or taxes. Suggest putting Katie Belle’s back the way it was in the beginning of The Villages and let the residents manage the operations. If capital is required for daily operations until a profit is established, raise the amenity fee per household. With the number of houses now in The Villages every $1 equates to approximately one million dollars per year. This funding can be used for required alterations and to put Katie Belle’s back in business.
Suggest building a brew pub/restaurant/dance hall operation or casino with entertainment and restaurant. This will bring jobs and taxes to this area, and most important, life. Apartments will only be the demise of Spanish Springs and the Van Patten Building.
The Village Machine never stops. Village managers, vice presidents, lawyers and authoritarian personnel reach out to anybody in a position that will agree and authorize what The Villages propose. In this particular proposal, why not ask The Villages residents?
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.

Stopped reading when you were so off base with the red quoted section. The upstairs offices are, for the most part, VILLAGES owned businesses. The same one that drove off outdoor entertainment at Demshars and another location because they said it was too loud. When a business owner is threatened by the landlord that they could lose their lease if they don't stop outdoor entertainment in the afternoon? Guess what, that business owner loses thousands over a month because they cant compete with the bars that don't have offices upstairs.
No, the workers upstairs don't make one bit of difference in the revenue after 5 pm.
The residents do. And many days, I can't find a parking space on the square at 2 pm.
You lost credibility in paragraph 1 of your War and Peace essay.

[skippy05]

It would appear The Developer used Katie-Bells as a marketing tool for years, not really concerned about the bottom line finances of the Business as long as the Marketing was effective and the income at least made it near break even. I think that is genius. Then, once its usefulness as a Marketing tool was no longer needed, handed it over to someone else to try to make a go of it as a real income producing business. Then the forces of the real market determined that this business model was not sustainable. Glad everyone enjoyed it while it was around. And, yes I think the Apartments will destroy the vibe of the area. Perhaps time for those who no longer like what is happening to move on to another area to live or suck it up and find other distracting interests.

[Hiltongrizz11]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
For the longest time Katie Belle’s was similar to an anchor store in a shopping center. The various activities at Katie Belle’s were an attraction from late morning to late evening for many people that brought life to Spanish Springs. Now the Spanish Springs Town Square resembles a ghost town most of the day except for scheduled events and a couple of bar/restaurants that feature live music from midafternoon until no later than 5 p.m. prior to the music entertainment starting in the respective squares.
Currently the people working at businesses and their client/customers located on the second floor of the Spanish Springs Town Square buildings do patronize the local restaurants and stores. When the second floor businesses move to another location, consequently there will be less activity and less people. A limited amount of proposed apartment dwellers will further exacerbate the diminished people activity and cause negative business issues.
The onus, to date, is put on Lady Lake commissioners to change their determination going forward with apartments or business as usual in Spanish Springs. Lady Lake will not issue or change a zoning restriction to place businesses in a residential area of the town, but the commissioners are asked by The Villages to make a zoning change to place residential dwellings in zoned business areas.
There are approximately 8,000 Village residents that live within the Town of Lady Lake city limits. There are approximately, mean average depending on seasonal times, 100,000 plus Village residents that live within The Villages boundaries. By definition these 100,000 Village residents have “NO STANDING” in the Town of Lady Lake for any outcome forthcoming from the Lady Lake Commission that will determine the future of Spanish Springs Town Center and Katie Belle’s. Yet The Villages residents are affected the most by the outcome. How does that work? Kind of like the proverbial quote, “The tail wagging the dog.” Many Village residents chose to purchase homes in The Villages because of the lifestyle as influenced by the amenities and entertainment predicated on what Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center offered. Although the appearance and programs for the newer squares varied and different neighborhoods developed, the camaraderie and lifestyle remained the same. The Villages grew according to this matrix and the Developer profited because of Village home sales, again based on the Spanish Springs lifestyle as presented. Most Village residents truly believe that The Villages is by far the best retirement place, but are disappointed by the lifestyle change as petitioned. Are there any fiduciary responsibilities The Villages have to the residents for proposing major lifestyle changes based on what was initially offered and what is now presented without any residents’ input?
There are many proposals presented in the Town of Lady Lake, Fruitland Park, Leesburg, Wildwood, Summerfield and other areas for apartments and additional high density living complexes. These apartments propose offering renters a very competitive rate. The concept for these apartments is to accommodate people that work in The Villages.
The Villages already is building apartment complexes and duplex housing in Wildwood not far from Brownwood Paddock Square that blend in with this area as developed and do not detract from Brownwood activities. The a la carte Lofts at Brownwood have not reached full occupancy even though rental rates were reduced to attract apartment dwellers. Up-charges for garages and additional storage places with no personal help for car parking, carrying groceries, etc. as provided in upscale apartments.
With the apartments under construction around and outside of the Spanish Springs area, a need for professional services, lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, etc. will become a necessity. The second floor offices of the Spanish Springs Town Center buildings will need a little compound and simonizing to facilitate professional services as such, but nowhere near the expense of apartment conversions. All that is needed is The Villages Marketing Department put their sales hats on and sell this concept to promote what is available with minor building changes and no dedicated parking places.
The Van Patten Building is a little more complex since over the years changes were made to Katie Belle’s that contributed to the dining dance hall’s demise. Restaurants project their cash flow based on the amount of tables available to patrons. Contrary to Katie Belle’s removing the tables and closing the dining room section. Many in the restaurant business consider this endeavor as occupational suicide. Even with the elimination of the dining room, there was an attraction for people to participate in various activities going-on at Katie Belle’s. The square actually had people walking around in late morning till mid-afternoon and some people waiting for music to start in the square. The move upstairs wrote the epitaph for Katie Belle’s.
Consideration for the Developers’ risk to build The Villages is most important. The residents are not privy to what the ups and downs are/were to make The Villages what it is today. The undertaking of an endeavor of building The Villages most likely had some good days and bad days. There is a consensus of opinion among residents that the Developer only wants to make more money without any thoughtful regard of the investment the Developer made to make The Villages what it is today. There also should be some consideration for the residents that purchased homes in The Villages that helped the Developer make The Villages the best place to live and retire.
So what happens to Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center? Since there are a majority of residents that recognize Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs as the draw as it was when in full operation, they should have a voice in what is happening to these places and what the future holds. There are even new residents that recently purchased homes in Fenney that heard about Katie Belle’s and ask questions why it is closed. If the fact is that Katie Belle’s lost money when in operation, none of this information was brought to the residents. By precluding The Village residents from any decision pertaining to the future of Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs Town Center only breeds contempt throughout the resident population. The residents were never given the opportunity to correct any issues that contributed to the close of Katie Belle’s.
The Van Patten Building because of its location in Spanish Springs Town Center has a much better potential than a rental property offers. Since financial issues over the last 25 years are the word out of The Villages office, particulars never divulged, Katie Belle’s was unilaterally altered through the years and ultimately shut down with no consideration from the residents. The Village residents could correct this situation if given the opportunity.
There are many very talented business oriented individuals that live in The Villages that can make Katie Belle’s profitable. There are millions of dollars spent by the AAC and PWAC to construct new or refurbish recreational facilities with a lot of overhead but virtually have no cash flow. The residents pay for these places either through amenity fees or taxes. Suggest putting Katie Belle’s back the way it was in the beginning of The Villages and let the residents manage the operations. If capital is required for daily operations until a profit is established, raise the amenity fee per household. With the number of houses now in The Villages every $1 equates to approximately one million dollars per year. This funding can be used for required alterations and to put Katie Belle’s back in business.
Suggest building a brew pub/restaurant/dance hall operation or casino with entertainment and restaurant. This will bring jobs and taxes to this area, and most important, life. Apartments will only be the demise of Spanish Springs and the Van Patten Building.
The Village Machine never stops. Village managers, vice presidents, lawyers and authoritarian personnel reach out to anybody in a position that will agree and authorize what The Villages propose. In this particular proposal, why not ask The Villages residents?
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.


I don't think people want to read your newspaper length stuff; especially on this short snippet type of forum.

I know I didn't.. You lost me after the first two paragraphs

[rustyp]

[QUOTE=graciegirl;1982936]Katie Belles died because it failed to get enough business.

Total BS - site your source besides hearsay.

katie belles closing - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=katie+belles+closing&cvid=24ce39b3006646eeb48d02f77fad42be&aqs=edge.1.69i57j0.11889j0j1&pglt=43&FORM=ANSPA1&PC=DCTS)


Another swing and a miss. Did you read the article you sited ? No mention closure was due to the inability of getting enough business. If anything the article is pointing the reader to when is enough - enough ? (I.E. greed ?) A couple of interesting quotes from the "article":

- When Katie Belle’s reopened after the renovation, many residents were unhappy with the results. The fact that Katie Belle’s was no longer a private club for residents prompted one resident to conclude, “Sorry Mr. Developer, but you blew this one.”

- Unfortunately, Katie Belle’s won’t the be the last piece of Villages magic to disappear. The community is now being run by the fourth generation Morse Millennials – the group who actually expects Villagers to believe the popular venue is being closed because of the Coronavirus. If you ask us, that seems a bit too convenient and a sorry excuse for making the space available to a hefty-rent-paying tenant.

[Bella6368]

I would think apartments right on top of an outdoor music venue is not a good idea for most renters! What I'd be worried about is the same thing that happens when people build houses right beside a race track and then have it shut down because of the noise. The same thing is absolutely going to happen in Spanish Springs. The Villages should get involved when an amenity like a town square is going to be made unusable by allowing residential in a strictly commercial space.

With the growth of TV South of Morse Blvd., maybe TV long term plan is to slowly phase out Spanish Springs as one of the Town Squares. I have heard that Brownwood is now becoming the epicenter of the TV Squares, due to all the growth at that end of the TV. They have after all just relocated their Street of Dreams Sales compound there. Sounds to me like this is the natural path of things "out with the old, in with the new". I agree with some of what was said, but SS sadly has become somewhat a ghost town. However, raising amenity fees is not the answer. You can't keep raising amenity fees to bail out failed business'. There will always be some that will fail, and it is not the residents responsibilities to bail them out so to speak.

[FromNY]

How many Villagers south of 466A and especially south of 44 ever visit Spanish Springs?After almost 20 years here the squares do not hold the same adventures. Fun at times same same at times. Age changes how we see and do things. Spanish Springs is in a time warp. Or is it a mish mush of structures? When they took the church on the square away the realization of constant change hit.Their (as in Developer ) business their choices. Personally bring back the sweet Buffalo .

[Girlcopper]

Was it a restaurant? Why did it stop being popular with residents of TV? Could it just be the natural order of things, i.e. new squares being built, the population growth in the new areas, etc.
It was a novelty and an anchor as previously said. New and better restaurants started opening and people moved on. Think about it. Dont you patronize new places to check them out? Sure. No one eats constantly at the same place plus……parking at a busy time

[danglanzsr]

The Suliemans and FMK have shown no reluctance to taking over operation of restaurant space in THE Villages. I am quite sure they have looked to Katie Belle and decided it was not going to be worth assuming operation.

[Nucky]

Stop the insanity. SS isn’t going anywhere.

Foolishness at its best!

[jbrown132]

I would have read your entire Article, but it turned into a book. Simply put this is a business and about making money. They don’t care about the residents. I am sure they did a study that shows they can make more money on renting apartments than having businesses occupy those buildings. Just the way it is.

[daca55]

If apartments are allowed in SS it will be one more nail in the coffin for that square. Nobody is going to want to rent an apartment and have loud music playing every night outside there windows. They will all complain and more than likely the music in the square will be gone just like Katie Bells and everything else that has closed.

[Luggage]

I'm waiting for people just like the writer to step up and spend a hundred thousand on a lease to reopen Katie Bell's but I'm sure I won't see it. Let's face it the owner of the property can do pretty much what they want and I do not fear having people living over buildings. I grew up in Brooklyn my wife had a store in Jersey City and that's typical you have apartments two or three or four stories over stores on the bottom even in New York City it's done the same way. The residents go downstairs and shop locally and that's a great thing because that's less traffic that way and that's how most planners of cities want it. After all I don't expect to see a Subway around here soon ( a train not the restaurants)

[Luggage]

One reason I don't go to Spanish springs is the parking was terrible on weekends when they decided to always have a car show, so you won't find me there

[Challenger]

Capitalism is based on "survival of the fittest". The north end of TV has been surrounded by hundreds of eating establishments (competitors). The demographics of the area has changed (older average age). If paying customers had patronized KB in sufficient numbers, it would still be there. Same for Hacienda Hills Country Club.

Apartments are a far better alternative than vacancy. Many communities around the country are now realizing that "mixed use zoning" is being embraced widely. My residential neighborhood when growing up had small commercial establishments scattered throughout.

[Bay Kid]

Longest post ever! I feel asleep by the 3rd paragraph.

If you don't own it you can't control it. Stop worrying and enjoy the beautiful square that will not change.

[JMintzer]

I never had the pleasure (?) of going to Katie Belles, but from what I read, I doubt I would have gone, even if it was still open.

From the descriptions I read (good and bad), it was not something that would appeal TO ME...

Tastes change. What was once popular, goes out of style. As the older residents "move on", they're replaced by younger retirees, who have different wants and needs...

What was popular 20 years ago, may not be popular today and what is popular today, may not be popular in another 20 years...

Except for the Beatles... They will NEVER stop being popular! :bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

[BostonRich]

One reason I don't go to Spanish springs is the parking was terrible on weekends when they decided to always have a car show, so you won't find me there

Isn't that the old "no one goes there anymore because it's too crowded" thing?

[Mlogan22@tampabay.rr.com]

I think apartments are a Great idea! If I were to come visit The Villages I would prefer Staying at these apartments rather than an offsite place. Some people like to be where the action is and walk around the area. As far as the noise level from the bands at night; The bands stop at 9 PM. I think it would be fun living above the stores. These apartments would also be great investment for anyone who wanted to make them short or long term rentals. Count me in I would buy one.

[llamamama]

Traffic will increase because of the apartments is a concern. Mail Boxes in that area for those nearby villages and apartment traffic is going to be a problem I’m not looking forward to.

[Bogie Shooter]

With the growth of TV South of Morse Blvd., maybe TV long term plan is to slowly phase out Spanish Springs as one of the Town Squares. I have heard that Brownwood is now becoming the epicenter of the TV Squares, due to all the growth at that end of the TV. They have after all just relocated their Street of Dreams Sales compound there. Sounds to me like this is the natural path of things "out with the old, in with the new". I agree with some of what was said, but SS sadly has become somewhat a ghost town. However, raising amenity fees is not the answer. You can't keep raising amenity fees to bail out failed business'. There will always be some that will fail, and it is not the residents responsibilities to bail them out so to speak.

Whole lot of assumptions and “I heard” here.
BTW which village do you live in?

[paulajr]

Total BS - site your source besides hearsay.

I wouldn’t need a “source” to back up that comment. Every time we went to the original Katie Belles there would be large groups dancing and partying…and drinking water or having one drink. They all loved going there, not spending any $$$.

[Bogie Shooter]

Typical of a TOTV thread. Posters say SS is a ghost town other posters say finding a place to park is a problem.
Lot of people who don’t know what they are rambling about.
Relax SS is not going away………….

[CFrance]

Total BS - site your source besides hearsay.


“Site” is a noun meaning “location”: Raleigh is the site of the new mine.“Cite” is a verb meaning “to mention” or “to make reference to”: She cited the Journal of Atmospheric Sciences in her paper.

Miss(ed) Grammar:duck:

[kendi]

The older one gets the more opportunity to realize that nothing ever stays the same. Take a few minutes to grieve the loss then move on. No sense wasting time sulking.

[npwalters]

I never had the pleasure (?) of going to Katie Belles, but from what I read, I doubt I would have gone, even if it was still open.

From the descriptions I read (good and bad), it was not something that would appeal TO ME...

Tastes change. What was once popular, goes out of style. As the older residents "move on", they're replaced by younger retirees, who have different wants and needs...

What was popular 20 years ago, may not be popular today and what is popular today, may not be popular in another 20 years...

Except for the Beatles... They will NEVER stop being popular! :bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

You never went there and you still have an opinion about its appeal to most. Huumm.

[JMintzer]

“Site” is a noun meaning “location”: Raleigh is the site of the new mine.“Cite” is a verb meaning “to mention” or “to make reference to”: She cited the Journal of Atmospheric Sciences in her paper.

Miss(ed) Grammar:duck:

Careful, you could spend all day here correcting spelling and grammar... :icon_wink::icon_wink::icon_wink:

[Marathon Man]

I'm waiting for people just like the writer to step up and spend a hundred thousand on a lease to reopen Katie Bell's but I'm sure I won't see it. Let's face it the owner of the property can do pretty much what they want and I do not fear having people living over buildings. I grew up in Brooklyn my wife had a store in Jersey City and that's typical you have apartments two or three or four stories over stores on the bottom even in New York City it's done the same way. The residents go downstairs and shop locally and that's a great thing because that's less traffic that way and that's how most planners of cities want it. After all I don't expect to see a Subway around here soon ( a train not the restaurants)

Great response. As long as complaining is free, that will the preferred action of most.

[msilagy]

Katie Belle's lost its appeal when they moved upstairs. The food was very mediocre and the staff not always so inviting. It tried to be a high end restaurant but failed. The music was good but their attempts to do 2 seatings, then charging for seats to eat dinner drove people away. Sitting people with strangers not a highlight. No place for singles to gather and enjoy the music and dancing a miserable failure. So the end result - bye bye.

[JMintzer]

You never went there and you still have an opinion about its appeal to most. Huumm.

I never said "what appeals to most"... I said "ME"...

I also said "what was popular 20 years ago MAY not be popular today"...

So yeah, I have MY opinion...

Oh, and it's spelled Hmmm...

[Shellshack]

My business plan is simple and worked in hundreds of communities. We cove the square to achieve year round climate control for shopping and events. We bring in Sears and Pennys as anchors. People will come in droves. We should have had Katie’s declared an historic site so it could never be changed.

[justjim]

There were actually two Katie Belles. Old and new. The old KB had the restaurant on the
second floor and entertainment/dancing on the first floor. After 20 plus years the old KB needed a facelift, however, Instead of a facelift a decision was made for a complete renovation. In the transition, Katie Belles lost a great deal of its “natural” saloon ambiance of the 1800’s. Another major change was it went from a “resident/guest” operation to a total public operation. Village residents and their guests were made to feel special when entering old Katie Belles. 12-15 years ago I remember lines clear out to the street for residents and their guests. The Developer doesn’t make many mistakes but perhaps one was made in the changes made to Katie Belles. These are my observations without having any access to financial records of Katie Belles bottom line. But for sure, old Katie Belles was a big draw for Spanish Springs.

[merrymini]

Does anyone think their opinion so important that they expect people to read such a long post!
I got the gist of it.
Businesses will come and go.
Apartments will use less parking spaces than katie bells did.
People will buy where they want to be, their choice.
Good idea for second story space, where no business wants to be.
Cannot imagine why they were turned down.

[Lisanp@aol.com]

I know this establishment is missed by those who loved it. I know the apartments are a sore spot for the Lady Lake residents. I have followed the story and read all the articles, but I have a few thoughts on this that might be controversial.

1) From where I stand, McGrady's Pub is the direct REPLACEMENT for Katie-Belle's. Have you been following the news on that establishment? A "Beer Club" where you purchase a "membership". Doesn't the "membership" aspect of that concept sound a lot like the early days of Katie-Belle's?

2) Downtown apartments seem to always be shunned by residents and fought hard, and they almost always get built anyway. Once they are built, they are quickly occupied and truly revitalize a downtown business district. I watched it happen in my hometown and many neighboring towns. No maintenance living spaces are desired by many.

3) Spanish Springs is in fact a ghost town that needs to be revitalized. If this concept doesn't end up working, it will die soon.

4) The "desires" of the newest residents match those "whims" of the Morse Grandchildren. Guess who turned 55, boomers? Generation X! We are buying homes, moving in and do have different tastes then our parents (and grandparents) do. Things are a changin', and I'm not sure it's a bad thing!

[Jayhawk]

If apartments are allowed in SS it will be one more nail in the coffin for that square. Nobody is going to want to rent an apartment and have loud music playing every night outside there windows. They will all complain and more than likely the music in the square will be gone just like Katie Bells and everything else that has closed.

I'm confused. NOBODY will want to rent an apartment, or THEY ALL will complain about music?

[shut the front door]

I never said "what appeals to most"... I said "ME"...

I also said "what was popular 20 years ago MAY not be popular today"...

So yeah, I have MY opinion...

Oh, and it's spelled Hmmm...

I bet you're real fun at a party. :ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:

[KRMACK55]

Total BS - site your source besides hearsay.
He’s a big promoter of the villages owners should be paid by them. The residents here pay for everything and even pay for the maintenance for the business owners. It’s getting too expensive for older residents. Thad just a fact.

[Indydealmaker]

was Katie-Belle's a village property? i was under the belief it was a commercial business, independently owned. maybe i'm wrong, idk

You are correct. A private business that did not make money. Hence, it was closed.

[Skip]

The original author is a District 2 Supervisor. Obviously he does NOT understand how The Villages works. He also proposed putting a Gambling Casino in the Hacienda Hills Country Club or where Katie Belle's was originally located. Doesn't he know that such gambling is illegal in Florida (except by license on tribal lands)? Think The Villages Operating Company would turn over that building to the Seminole Tribe of Florida so they can take a share of Villagers' wealth? That long dissertation just rambles and makes no sense to me.

Skip

[Alana33]

I like the concept of the apartments in SS but unless they are soundproofed, I cannot fathom why anyone would want to be inflicted with the noise from the music in the Square, daily, until 9 PM.
That would be an absolute nightmare for me.

[jimjamuser]

How many parking spots were required for KB’s? Many more than a dozen apartments.
Ten years ago, I would park in the Publix parking lot if I had to. I never minded walking. Katie Belles was worth the walk. Then, slowly KBs and even I changed - both becoming less energetic and interesting.

[Marathon Man]

He’s a big promoter of the villages owners should be paid by them. The residents here pay for everything and even pay for the maintenance for the business owners. It’s getting too expensive for older residents. Thad just a fact.

Can you show us in the budgets where residents' funds go to maintenance of privately owned buildings.

[cswett5234]

I think apartments are a Great idea! If I were to come visit The Villages I would prefer Staying at these apartments rather than an offsite place. Some people like to be where the action is....

Noise...you know that when you rent. What if they offered short 6 month leases? That way, an out-of-tower like my wife and I could stay at the apartment, research the differing neighborhoods before deciding where we want to be. Or maybe, we would love to stay there where the action is, music, food, street festivals, people love that stuff.

Stop thinking about the negative aspects and try to think "outside the box" just a little.

Clint from Freeport, ME

[Gpsma]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.

[shut the front door]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.

That is absolutely laughable. The violent crime rate of Lady Lake is far less that HALF that of Wildwood. And Wildwood property crime and violent crime rates both surpass the national average in both categories. You couldn't pay me to live near that hood.

2021 Compare Crime Rates: Wildwood, FL vs Lady Lake, FL (https://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=51277675&city2=51237375)

[Bogie Shooter]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.

Where do you live?

[Laker14]

according to a Google search I just performed, Spanish Springs was built in 1994, which makes it about 27 years old. 27 years in a retirement community is several lifetimes, and several different "classes" of retirees. I figure about every 5-7 years you get a "class" of retirees, whose life experiences are different enough to account for different tastes. As teens growing up, that period of time creates differences in fashions, music, and even political thinking. 27 years would account for 4 or 5 such transitions, and it's reasonable to assume that what "rocked" for retirees in 1994 probably won't rock for retirees in 2021 and beyond.
The most efficient way to "kill" Spanish Springs would have been to be locked into the original concept, for 30 years or more , and think that would continue to be attractive.

[JRietz]

Apartments will be the death of Spanish Springs

As the Katie Belle’s and Spanish Springs apartment saga continues, almost like a novel that never ends, per the opinion of many Village residents, the questions are, “What, why and how is this happening?
...
Written by Jim Cipollon a resident of The Village.

I will suggest going to SaveSpanishSprings.com (HTTP://SaveSpanishSprings.com) and voice your opinion there.

[John41]

There were actually two Katie Belles. Old and new. The old KB had the restaurant on the
second floor and entertainment/dancing on the first floor. After 20 plus years the old KB needed a facelift, however, Instead of a facelift a decision was made for a complete renovation. In the transition, Katie Belles lost a great deal of its “natural” saloon ambiance of the 1800’s. Another major change was it went from a “resident/guest” operation to a total public operation. Village residents and their guests were made to feel special when entering old Katie Belles. 12-15 years ago I remember lines clear out to the street for residents and their guests. The Developer doesn’t make many mistakes but perhaps one was made in the changes made to Katie Belles. These are my observations without having any access to financial records of Katie Belles bottom line. But for sure, old Katie Belles was a big draw for Spanish Springs.

Yes it was popular. We enjoyed going there. But the update was a flop. Poor management. The apartments will be another flop. Presently all the second stories are rented to businesses.

[JSR22]

Yes it was popular. We enjoyed going there. But the update was a flop. Poor management. The apartments will be another flop. Presently all the second stories are rented to businesses.

The second stories are Villages employees that were relocated. I much preferred the new Katie Belles they good food and entertainment. They failed because Villagers would not spend the money for more expensive entree's. I hope the apts succeed. If I was single I would move there.

[stanley]

. Poor management. The apartments will be another flop.

From what I "heard" ( :shrug: ), there is already a waiting list for when they get built. If I could afford it I would rent there also.

[JSR22]

From what I "heard" ( :shrug: ), there is already a waiting list for when they get built. If I could afford it I would rent there also.
I think it would be a fun place to live!

[npwalters]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.

LOL. If any of you folks in "the hood" north of 466 want to sell your crib at the discounted "ghetto" price please contact me.

[npwalters]

I never said "what appeals to most"... I said "ME"...

I also said "what was popular 20 years ago MAY not be popular today"...

So yeah, I have MY opinion...

Oh, and it's spelled Hmmm...

Actually it is spelled hmm according to Merriam-Webster, Oxford, and according to the Urban dictionary:

an utterance made by those in the act of thinking. represents more thinking than hmm, but significantly less cranial activity than hmmmm.

wow. This individual is thinking quite hard, it's only a matter of time until he reaches hmmmm level thought.

Regarding your initial post I probably should have gone with hmmmm.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Does anyone think their opinion so important that they expect people to read such a long post!
I got the gist of it.
Businesses will come and go.
Apartments will use less parking spaces than katie bells did.
People will buy where they want to be, their choice.
Good idea for second story space, where no business wants to be.
Cannot imagine why they were turned down.

Apartments will only use fewer parking spaces than Katie Bell's during the hours that Katie Bell's was open for business. The entire rest of the 24-hour period, it will use many more parking spaces than Katie Bell's used when it was closed for the night, until it opened again the next day.

In addition, apartments will have assigned parking, which means no one doing business in the town square, or shopping in the town square, or just wanting to listen to music in the town square, will be allowed to use those spaces. Not even if the tenants aren't home and the space is empty at the moment.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

One reason I don't go to Spanish springs is the parking was terrible on weekends when they decided to always have a car show, so you won't find me there

We still have a car show at the square, and I have never had any trouble finding a parking space in one of the lots behind the buildings.

No, you won't find a space in front, near the gazebo where the band plays. It's closed off to traffic and for the exclusive use of the classic cars during the show.

But the parking lot behind the Sharon usually has plenty of space. The lot in front of the golf cart bridge always has plenty of space. The lot behind World of Beer -usually- has plenty of spaces. The lot at the transport bus stop -usually- has plenty of spaces.

And there are always plenty of spaces at the lot where Publix is.

In short, there are plenty of parking spaces all -around- the town square even during the car shows and Market Nights. Even when the Hooligans are playing.

[Bogie Shooter]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.


In which context did you mean in your use and absurd declaration?

Ghetto
A ghetto, often the ghetto, is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live, especially as a result of social, legal, or economic pressure. Ghettos are often known for being more impoverished than other areas of the city. Versions of the ghetto appear across the world, each with their own names, classifications, and groupings of people. The term has deep cultural meaning in the United States, especially in the context of segregation and civil rights; as such, it has been widely used in the country to refer to inner-city neighborhoods that are mainly poor. It is also used in some European countries such as Romania and Slovenia to refer to poor neighborhoods. The term was originally used for the Venetian Ghetto in Venice, Italy, as early as 1516, to describe the part of the city where Jews were restricted to live and thus segregated from other people.Wikipedia

[Papa_lecki]

If the apartments were not financially successful in Brownwood, I don’t think the developer would make another mistake in SS. If they are moving forward with SS, then Brownwood was successful.

[stanley]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.

Now that's the most ignorant and insulting thing I have read here in a while.
Someone is showing their colors.

[DaleDivine]

I read all the 6 pages of posts and didn't see any mention of age requirements that the tenants will have to be to live there IF the apartments are built. Will this be a 55+ like the rest of TV? Or will there be a younger generation moving in?
:):ho:

[JMintzer]

My business plan is simple and worked in hundreds of communities. We cove the square to achieve year round climate control for shopping and events. We bring in Sears and Pennys as anchors. People will come in droves. We should have had Katie’s declared an historic site so it could never be changed.

Sears and Penny's are both failing and going out of business...

[JMintzer]

I bet you're real fun at a party. :ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:

Actually, I'm a hoot!

Guess which one is me...

Animal House Guitar Scene - YouTube (https://youtu.be/8V_hCqO6UQs)

[JMintzer]

according to a Google search I just performed, Spanish Springs was built in 1994, which makes it about 27 years old. 27 years in a retirement community is several lifetimes, and several different "classes" of retirees. I figure about every 5-7 years you get a "class" of retirees, whose life experiences are different enough to account for different tastes. As teens growing up, that period of time creates differences in fashions, music, and even political thinking. 27 years would account for 4 or 5 such transitions, and it's reasonable to assume that what "rocked" for retirees in 1994 probably won't rock for retirees in 2021 and beyond.
The most efficient way to "kill" Spanish Springs would have been to be locked into the original concept, for 30 years or more , and think that would continue to be attractive.

Excellent post...

I don't know why I didn't think of that... Oh, wait... I did. And I was promptly attacked for my opinion...

[JMintzer]

Actually it is spelled hmm according to Merriam-Webster, Oxford, and according to the Urban dictionary:

an utterance made by those in the act of thinking. represents more thinking than hmm, but significantly less cranial activity than hmmmm.

wow. This individual is thinking quite hard, it's only a matter of time until he reaches hmmmm level thought.

Regarding your initial post I probably should have gone with hmmmm.

Regarding your initial post, I would have kept it to myself... Your initial Huumm is found nowhere in any dictionary...

[TNGary]

according to a Google search I just performed, Spanish Springs was built in 1994, which makes it about 27 years old. 27 years in a retirement community is several lifetimes, and several different "classes" of retirees. I figure about every 5-7 years you get a "class" of retirees, whose life experiences are different enough to account for different tastes. As teens growing up, that period of time creates differences in fashions, music, and even political thinking. 27 years would account for 4 or 5 such transitions, and it's reasonable to assume that what "rocked" for retirees in 1994 probably won't rock for retirees in 2021 and beyond.
The most efficient way to "kill" Spanish Springs would have been to be locked into the original concept, for 30 years or more , and think that would continue to be attractive.

interesting, makes sense, insightful:
Reminds me of the Human Resource Training video by Dr. Massey "You are what you were when"

[Shellshack]

Sears and Penny's are both failing and going out of business...

You are correct and that was my point. Change is inevitable and necessary. We should not hold on the the past for fear of change or old times sake. Montgomery Ward was #1, then Sears, then Kmart, then Walmart, now Prime and home delivery are moving in. I remember thinking Jack in the Box drive up would never work, now 70% of of fast food is drive up, and now the recent twist of call in-pick up.

Enclosed malls were wonderful for years, but Sears and Penny's could not foresee their coming demise. Anyone want to put stock in outlet malls these days? They were huge 15 years ago.

Some change fails, some works great and survives for a while. Katie's is gone just like the soda fountain at the drug store. Get over it and move on.

Sort of like me, I used to work ok, now my stock keeps sinking to new lows. Don't invest in futures on me.

[asianthree]

Sears and Penny's are both failing and going out of business...

I think it was meant to be a Sheldon moment. sarcasm

[Laker14]

Excellent post...

I don't know why I didn't think of that... Oh, wait... I did. And I was promptly attacked for my opinion...

Maybe your delivery lacked my charm. Or maybe I'll soon be attacked.
The suspense is killing me.

[Ramone]

The post was long winded but right on. Katie Bells was put there as a Villager only bar & restaurant. Had to show your Village ID to get in. Great place for years. Even was on the potential buyers shuttle tour as a sales plus. In-Laws moved here in 1988, and after Spanish Springs built we went there many times to packed house. Also enjoyed the beautiful Silver Lake Club in the Historic side, but that also is taken away. Hacienda Club was a majestic place, but also gone. Beware Lake Sumter! Katie Belles was old man Swartz pride and joy and gift to his Villagers. Now gone!

[walterray1]

Spanish Springs...along with that whole northern tier of TV...is a ghetto now.

The real villages is now south of 466a and 44.

No one cares anymore about north of 466. All the bad news comes from there.

The Esteemed Developer would bulldoze it down in a heartbeat.

What a load of crap thing to say. Apparently not all the bad comes from there. Case in point.

[graciegirl]

Plans for new apartments at the site of where Hacienda Hills restaurant used to be are coming.

I just read this in the online news;

"Neighbors of the demolished Hacienda Hills Country Club will get a first look at a planned apartment complex at the site.

The unveiling of a site plan for the apartment complex at the property off Morse Boulevard will take place between 3 to 5 p.m. Wednesday, Aug. 25 in Room 102 at The Villages Sumter County Service Center at Pinellas Plaza. Villagers living within 500-feet of the Hacienda Hills Country Club site have been invited to the meeting by Sumter County Administrator Bradley Arnold."

We will see if the reality of this situation comes close to the previous discussions.