Logic of Leaving Behind

[dewilson58]

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:

[John Mayes]

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:

I’ve thought about this a lot over the last few days and for the life of me, I don’t understand. It’s either a catastrophic mistake or total incompetence. SMH.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There are Americans in Afghanistan who aren't officials, soldiers, connected to anyone of import. They're just normal people who for whatever reason went to Afghanistan. Maybe they have family there and are visiting. Maybe their spouses have family there and they're visiting. Maybe they're doing missionary work.

For whatever reason, ordinary American citizens are in Afghanistan. There's no singular list of everyone who's there. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to stay and finish doing whatever they came there to do. It's also entirely possible that they didn't feel any need to inform YOU that they were there, and that they were there on purpose, and that they wanted to stay.

So YOU will never know why those people were "left behind." If even a single un-named unknown unimportant American citizen stays in Afghanistan on purpose, you won't ever learn that.

So why would you even ask what the logic is of "leaving Americans behind?"

The administration can't get ALL Americans out, because the administration doesn't have a list of ALL Americans who are there. That may be why they didn't state they would get ALL of them out. They said they'd get any who wanted to get out, out.

Those who choose to stay, will choose to stay.

The problem though, is that there are Americans who are in remote areas of the country who might not even realize that the American government wants to know if they plan on staying or not. Those people - may also get left behind, and discover that some day, when they decide to leave, they won't be able.

The intention though is to get all Americans out who want to leave.

[John Mayes]

There are Americans in Afghanistan who aren't officials, soldiers, connected to anyone of import. They're just normal people who for whatever reason went to Afghanistan. Maybe they have family there and are visiting. Maybe their spouses have family there and they're visiting. Maybe they're doing missionary work.

For whatever reason, ordinary American citizens are in Afghanistan. There's no singular list of everyone who's there. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to stay and finish doing whatever they came there to do. It's also entirely possible that they didn't feel any need to inform YOU that they were there, and that they were there on purpose, and that they wanted to stay.

So YOU will never know why those people were "left behind." If even a single un-named unknown unimportant American citizen stays in Afghanistan on purpose, you won't ever learn that.

So why would you even ask what the logic is of "leaving Americans behind?"

The administration can't get ALL Americans out, because the administration doesn't have a list of ALL Americans who are there. That may be why they didn't state they would get ALL of them out. They said they'd get any who wanted to get out, out.

Those who choose to stay, will choose to stay.

The problem though, is that there are Americans who are in remote areas of the country who might not even realize that the American government wants to know if they plan on staying or not. Those people - may also get left behind, and discover that some day, when they decide to leave, they won't be able.

The intention though is to get all Americans out who want to leave.

If the intention was to get all Americans out that wanted to leave, there would have been a plan to do so….there wasn’t. Additionally, if there was a plan, we could have possibly avoided losing 13 military personnel.

[MDLNB]

There is ALWAYS an emergency evacuation plan for Americans in other countries. And there are ways to contact Americans. Most Americans in country are listed at the embassy and a means of contacting them with an evacuation order is known. The problem is that the plan was not utilized properly, if at all. Americans are instructed ahead of time where to meet for evacuation. It appears that this was not done.
Just my opinion, but this is probably an unusual circumstance where the leader of the country flees, leaving the country in the hands of the enemy. Even so, the evacuation plan should have stipulated such a contingency.
And yes the military has a plan written up for just about every foreign country. When civilians/bureaucrats/congress get in the way of set plans, it is inevitable that we have a catastrophe.

[Number 10 GI]

I’ve thought about this a lot over the last few days and for the life of me, I don’t understand. It’s either a catastrophic mistake or total incompetence. SMH.

There is no doubt that it is incompetence.

[Boffin]

There is ALWAYS an emergency evacuation plan for Americans in other countries. And there are ways to contact Americans. Most Americans in country are listed at the embassy and a means of contacting them with an evacuation order is known. The problem is that the plan was not utilized properly, if at all. Americans are instructed ahead of time where to meet for evacuation. It appears that this was not done.
Just my opinion, but this is probably an unusual circumstance where the leader of the country flees, leaving the country in the hands of the enemy. Even so, the evacuation plan should have stipulated such a contingency.
And yes the military has a plan written up for just about every foreign country. When civilians/bureaucrats/congress get in the way of set plans, it is inevitable that we have a catastrophe.

Non-combatant Evacuation Operation.

[GrumpyOldMan]

The OP implies, my interpretation, that leaving people behind was intentional. I completely disagree with that interpretation,. I believe that decisions were made based on the best advice of top military and state department advisors.

There is NO way after 20 years we were just going to walk away and make a clean break. It has NEVER happened in all the places we have sent our military. It is just reality.

It is very easy to armchair quarterback after the fact. But, I don't accept the "incompetence" argument. People saying that were not there do not know what information was used to make the decision.

[GrumpyOldMan]

There is ALWAYS an emergency evacuation plan for Americans in other countries. And there are ways to contact Americans. Most Americans in country are listed at the embassy and a means of contacting them with an evacuation order is known. The problem is that the plan was not utilized properly, if at all. Americans are instructed ahead of time where to meet for evacuation. It appears that this was not done.
Just my opinion, but this is probably an unusual circumstance where the leader of the country flees, leaving the country in the hands of the enemy. Even so, the evacuation plan should have stipulated such a contingency.
And yes the military has a plan written up for just about every foreign country. When civilians/bureaucrats/congress get in the way of set plans, it is inevitable that we have a catastrophe.

True there are always plans, and those plans never work out. NEVER have we left a major long-term operation (invasion?) cleanly - look at VN? It doesn't happen. Life is not simply and clean.

[MDLNB]

True there are always plans, and those plans never work out. NEVER have we left a major long-term operation (invasion?) cleanly - look at VN? It doesn't happen. Life is not simply and clean.


True, but there are always contingency plans written in. Even the military members that I know said it is plainly a cluster **** as bad as the assault on Iran way back. Probably going to be worse unless they can pull a rabbit out of their @$$ and pull off a miracle. The way it looks, quite a few will be left behind.

[GrumpyOldMan]

True, but there are always contingency plans written in. Even the military members that I know said it is plainly a cluster **** as bad as the assault on Iran way back. Probably going to be worse unless they can pull a rabbit out of their @$$ and pull off a miracle. The way it looks, quite a few will be left behind.

Again, arm chair quarterbacking is easy. Real life is never easy. If you KNOW what information was reviewed and what decisions were made, please inform us. Otherwise, I stand behind my country and my presidents decision.

I know that saying that I actually support something will be taken as political, while all the complaints are obviously not political. If I get banned, so be it. I am proud to be an American and support the Presidents decision to withdraw. I am confident he did was he and his advisors thought was best. I am sorry it didn't work out - that is war. It is messy, it is deadly and it is never the people that sent us there that serve and die.

[Stu from NYC]

All I know our govt handled this whole thing incredibly poorly.

[Toymeister]

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

[tvbound]

Again, arm chair quarterbacking is easy. Real life is never easy. If you KNOW what information was reviewed and what decisions were made, please inform us. Otherwise, I stand behind my country and my presidents decision.

I know that saying that I actually support something will be taken as political, while all the complaints are obviously not political. If I get banned, so be it. I am proud to be an American and support the Presidents decision to withdraw. I am confident he did was he and his advisors thought was best. I am sorry it didn't work out - that is war. It is messy, it is deadly and it is never the people that sent us there that serve and die.True there are always plans, and those plans never work out. NEVER have we left a major long-term operation (invasion?) cleanly - look at VN? It doesn't happen. Life is not simply and clean.

Had we just been smart enough to include the Afghani government in the withdrawal talks, instead of ONLY the Taliban, more than likely the whole country wouldn't have fallen to the Taliban in a record time - that no one could predict. At least smarter heads eventually prevailed, when the asinine idea of inviting the Taliban to Camp David on 9/11 was floated, to 'celebrate' the original May withdrawal. Let's hope we learned a big lesson here.

[John Mayes]

Again, arm chair quarterbacking is easy. Real life is never easy. If you KNOW what information was reviewed and what decisions were made, please inform us. Otherwise, I stand behind my country and my presidents decision.

I know that saying that I actually support something will be taken as political, while all the complaints are obviously not political. If I get banned, so be it. I am proud to be an American and support the Presidents decision to withdraw. I am confident he did was he and his advisors thought was best. I am sorry it didn't work out - that is war. It is messy, it is deadly and it is never the people that sent us there that serve and die.

I’m not at all trying to make this political but the plan to remove Americans and friends of America was totally botched. You may disagree with the term, “incompetence”, but I’m not sure how else to describe it. Read the article from the NY Times first published on August 21st and updated on the 25th. There were mistakes and miscalculations galore. Advisors can offer advice but the results are only as good as the decisions made. The whole situation was a monumental mistake that could have been avoided.

[Lindsyburnsy]

It seems with all the people that are hired to advise on the evacuation, everything possible is being done. Being that the public shouldn't be privvy to every move made due to security reasons, maybe being a Monday morning quarterback should be on hold for the time being. We are out of a 20 year war and tough decisions have to be made. I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind. Apparently, that was acceptable.

[tvbound]

It seems with all the people that are hired to advise on the evacuation, everything possible is being done. Being that the public shouldn't be privvy to every move made due to security reasons, maybe being a Monday morning quarterback should be on hold for the time being. We are out of a 20 year war and tough decisions have to be made. I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind. Apparently, that was acceptable.

"I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind."

THAT is a 'stain of shame,' that can never be washed away.

[GrumpyOldMan]

All I know our govt handled this whole thing incredibly poorly.

No, you don't know that, you think that.

Without knowing the alternatives, you can not say if they did poorly. You can only say the results are awful.

[Aces4]

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.


Thank you for your service and the insight.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

Thank you, and to add to your excellent reply, we TOLD them we were getting out in May. That was the agreement we made. Then for whatever reason, we delayed the departure until now. That would emphasize your point of people hearing but not believing. I expect (I do not know) that the pull-out was delayed to better prepare for the exit.

And, also, I EXPECT/THINK the plan was to trust the Afgan military to hold for at least a few weeks or months so we could transfer security to them as we pulled out. What appears to have happened is the Taliban told the Afgan military, stand down and accept a bribe or die. And they chose to stand down. At least that is what appears to have happened. If so, yes, it was a serious mistake to trust them - I don't know what we did, if we did. It is just conjecture on my part.

[Wyseguy]

There are Americans in Afghanistan who aren't officials, soldiers, connected to anyone of import. They're just normal people who for whatever reason went to Afghanistan. Maybe they have family there and are visiting. Maybe their spouses have family there and they're visiting. Maybe they're doing missionary work.

For whatever reason, ordinary American citizens are in Afghanistan. There's no singular list of everyone who's there. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to stay and finish doing whatever they came there to do. It's also entirely possible that they didn't feel any need to inform YOU that they were there, and that they were there on purpose, and that they wanted to stay.

So YOU will never know why those people were "left behind." If even a single un-named unknown unimportant American citizen stays in Afghanistan on purpose, you won't ever learn that.

So why would you even ask what the logic is of "leaving Americans behind?"

The administration can't get ALL Americans out, because the administration doesn't have a list of ALL Americans who are there. That may be why they didn't state they would get ALL of them out. They said they'd get any who wanted to get out, out.

Those who choose to stay, will choose to stay.

The problem though, is that there are Americans who are in remote areas of the country who might not even realize that the American government wants to know if they plan on staying or not. Those people - may also get left behind, and discover that some day, when they decide to leave, they won't be able.

The intention though is to get all Americans out who want to leave.


So it is your position that any US Citizen who wants to leave, and has expressed that the/she wants to leave, will be gotten out?

[dewilson58]

We have hundreds and hundreds of military personnel strategizing, strategizing, What If'g, What If'g and yet we are told..............."No one predicted an early collapse of the good guys / the quick take-over of the bad guys." (the chicken vs. the egg)

I can't buy this.

[MDLNB]

Again, arm chair quarterbacking is easy. Real life is never easy. If you KNOW what information was reviewed and what decisions were made, please inform us. Otherwise, I stand behind my country and my presidents decision.

I know that saying that I actually support something will be taken as political, while all the complaints are obviously not political. If I get banned, so be it. I am proud to be an American and support the Presidents decision to withdraw. I am confident he did was he and his advisors thought was best. I am sorry it didn't work out - that is war. It is messy, it is deadly and it is never the people that sent us there that serve and die.


The conversation has NOTHING to do with patriotism and your support for whichever political group you imply. And do not even imply that anyone other than you is a patriot.
I am not complaining about how it was handled, merely pointed out that emergency evacuation plans are available and should have been adhered to. I know they exist because I have been part of the planning and writing such plans for several countries.

I do not know of ANY military member that suggests that this operation has been done by SOP or that it has even been successful. Hopefully, for our American citizens, things will work out. Anyone in that country now, surely has a plan to exit that country, along with contingency plans. I will bet that many that are now stranded or blocked from getting to the airport, have plans to travel to the border. Some of the contracted folks will likely count on their company to furnish an evacuation team that will swoop in and rescue them. Most likely, any gov employees have been evacuated already.

In my opinion, if it had been left to the military to handle, the evacuation would have gone much more smoothly.

And yes, it IS Monday and the count down is moving swift. Personally, I am glad we are leaving that Mad Max country that is hardly good for anything. It is unfortunate that the women and children have to suffer, but that country does not wish to be tamed.

[Wyseguy]

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:



It is either incompetence, or uncaring disregard for the lives of US Citizens and Allies who are being abandoned. Regrettably it seems a cold uncaring disregard. When asked about the people falling to their death from planes as they tried to escape the Taliban, Biden said "C'mon man, that was four or five days ago". I can not be too hard on him, as I believe he has a mental issue. Those who defend him on the other hand... Just terrible people. So desperate to make it seem like they have accomplished something that they turn their backs on men, women and children.

[Koapaka]

If the intention was to get all Americans out that wanted to leave, there would have been a plan to do so….there wasn’t. Additionally, if there was a plan, we could have possibly avoided losing 13 military personnel.

When I read the post you replied to here my immediate thought was "written like a true civilian....this person has never served in uniform".

Those of us that have get your point perfectly....NO man left behind....EVER!

[jimjamuser]

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:
An estimated 300 US people are "stuck" in Afghanistan that would prefer to leave. Leaving by aircraft became difficult because the Taliban delayed Americans at checkpoints and ask for their names and addresses. Many found out about that practice and stayed at home. Others that may have gotten through the checkpoints were stopped by crowds at the gates. Basically, chaos prevailed!

[jimjamuser]

There are Americans in Afghanistan who aren't officials, soldiers, connected to anyone of import. They're just normal people who for whatever reason went to Afghanistan. Maybe they have family there and are visiting. Maybe their spouses have family there and they're visiting. Maybe they're doing missionary work.

For whatever reason, ordinary American citizens are in Afghanistan. There's no singular list of everyone who's there. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to stay and finish doing whatever they came there to do. It's also entirely possible that they didn't feel any need to inform YOU that they were there, and that they were there on purpose, and that they wanted to stay.

So YOU will never know why those people were "left behind." If even a single un-named unknown unimportant American citizen stays in Afghanistan on purpose, you won't ever learn that.

So why would you even ask what the logic is of "leaving Americans behind?"

The administration can't get ALL Americans out, because the administration doesn't have a list of ALL Americans who are there. That may be why they didn't state they would get ALL of them out. They said they'd get any who wanted to get out, out.

Those who choose to stay, will choose to stay.

The problem though, is that there are Americans who are in remote areas of the country who might not even realize that the American government wants to know if they plan on staying or not. Those people - may also get left behind, and discover that some day, when they decide to leave, they won't be able.

The intention though is to get all Americans out who want to leave.
I agree with the content of this post.

[jbartle1]

My guess, is that EVERYONE on this post is GUESSING! What is the point. Why after 20 years of training Afghans, did they lay down their arms. I'm glad it's almost over. Can't think of any reason we are there to settle THEIR civil war.

[ureout]

what I don't understand is that the treaty with the taliban was signed in Feb, of 2020... why didn't American citizens start leaving then?? also why were most of the armed forces removed before the evacuations were complete??

[GrumpyOldMan]

My guess, is that EVERYONE on this post is GUESSING! What is the point. Why after 20 years of training Afghans, did they lay down their arms. I'm glad it's almost over. Can't think of any reason we are there to settle THEIR civil war.

I agree with you, and I read an article that indicated the Taliban was bribing afghan soldiers to lay down their weapons. That would make sense to me, but I don't know.

[Neils]

No politics here

Wonder why we could maintain a very large base in Germany for about 75 years after we defeated the Nazi and help ensure a stable government. Same for Japan. Same for Manila.

But now a relatively small force left in Afghanistan that mostly operated air power and intelligence services for the remote locations from a secure base at Bagram was deemed urgent to close.

I question why our leaders are making these decisions.

[GrumpyOldMan]

what I don't understand is that the treaty with the taliban was signed in Feb, of 2020... why didn't American citizens start leaving then?? also why were most of the armed forces removed before the evacuations were complete??

According to that treaty we were supposed to be out in May 2021. Why were they still there now? I expect the post earlier explaining that no one there believed we were actually leaving is probably close to the truth - but, I was not included in that email, it is above my pay grade.

[Toymeister]

what I don't understand is that the treaty with the taliban was signed in Feb, of 2020... why didn't American citizens start leaving then?? also why were most of the armed forces removed before the evacuations were complete??

I was there in February 2020, we were leaving. It was horrible for those that did. COVID hysteria was in full motion by then. If you could get a flight you could expect to be quarantined at every stage, every country. A military run quarantine is not like a vacation. Our news source was MSM who were besides themselves with paranoia. We were concerned to come back to the US, it sounded like a disaster.

No one could come into theater, we kept whoever we could. When I left in April, 20 I got the same reception that you would give a first date who just told you that they had AIDS. In fact those deployed were under far less risk than you in Florida as every aspect, every risk was managed to minimize our exposure.

It's really easy to guess what should have been done but you didn't live it.

[GrumpyOldMan]

It's really easy to guess what should have been done but you didn't live it.

Absolutely.

[Papa_lecki]

I grew up in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Liberia - father was CIA. he sept his career in the Middle East. We (and other Americans) were evacuated form Pakistan, to Afghanistan and from Liberia to US.

We have hundreds and hundreds of military personnel strategizing, strategizing, What If'g, What If'g and yet we are told..............."No one predicted an early collapse of the good guys / the quick take-over of the bad guys." (the chicken vs. the egg)

In both cases, state department (it’s not the military, its the state department with the CIA who knows) knew EXACTLY what and where things were happening. you don’t provide billions of assistance and not get that information.
Dad still knows a thing or two. This is from him..
State Department knows where and who every American is, don’t kid yourself. They could have gotten everyone out if they wanted. Maybe not the spouse of an Afghan living in a village who doesn’t want to leave. Most did not want to get left behind. The Afghans who provided support to the US certainly didn’t think the Taliban was ever coming back in control - do you think they would have supported us?
The whole pull out of Afghanistan was not supposed to happen, it was a political talking point. Neither president (the R or the D) would have pulled the troops out.
We had fairly low troop numbers, generally staying on the airbase. Afghan’s were providing security, we were providing air support. It was expensive, we were paying the afghan troops and bribing the village leaders.
We have 3.5 million troops in South Korea, 60,000 in Germany, 50,000 in Japan.
China put pressure on the US to get out of Afghanistan and we (someone) caved to the pressure.

[Bucco]

I grew up in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Liberia - father was CIA. he sept his career in the Middle East. We (and other Americans) were evacuated form Pakistan, to Afghanistan and from Liberia to US.



In both cases, state department (it’s not the military, its the state department with the CIA who knows) knew EXACTLY what and where things were happening. you don’t provide billions of assistance and not get that information.
Dad still knows a thing or two. This is from him..
State Department knows where and who every American is, don’t kid yourself. They could have gotten everyone out if they wanted. Maybe not the spouse of an Afghan living in a village who doesn’t want to leave. Most did not want to get left behind. The Afghans who provided support to the US certainly didn’t think the Taliban was ever coming back in control - do you think they would have supported us?
The whole pull out of Afghanistan was not supposed to happen, it was a political talking point. Neither president (the R or the D) would have pulled the troops out.
We had fairly low troop numbers, generally staying on the airbase. Afghan’s were providing security, we were providing air support. It was expensive, we were paying the afghan troops and bribing the village leaders.
We have 3.5 million troops in South Korea, 60,000 in Germany, 50,000 in Japan.
China put pressure on the US to get out of Afghanistan and we (someone) caved to the pressure.

……When you agree to even talk to the Taliban, who our government had ignored, and who we were told up till the day of the agreement could not be trusted, and instead ignore the existing “government”, and then release 5000 prisoners, who may be the worst of the worst and actual “leaders” who returned immediately to the “war” they had been fighting…….what could be expected to happen. They were not imprisoned because they carried signs

We’re there lapses in intelligence recently…..heck yeah, but this was doomed from the very beginning.

[GrumpyOldMan]

No politics here

Wonder why we could maintain a very large base in Germany for about 75 years after we defeated the Nazi and help ensure a stable government. Same for Japan. Same for Manila.

But now a relatively small force left in Afghanistan that mostly operated air power and intelligence services for the remote locations from a secure base at Bagram was deemed urgent to close.

I question why our leaders are making these decisions.

No politics, just the answer, ask President Trump, he signed the treaty agreeing with the Taliban that we would leave last May.

[dewilson58]

No politics, just the answer, ask President Trump, he signed the treaty agreeing with the Taliban that we would leave last May.

With a lot of conditions / requirements.

The current retreat had nothing to do with the "treaty" agreeing to leave in May........the withdrawal happened way after May.

[dewilson58]

then release 5000 prisoners, who may be the worst of the worst and actual “leaders” who returned immediately to the “war” they had been fighting…….what could be expected to happen. They were not imprisoned because they carried signs

Buc, gots to agree with you. These were nasty boys and obviously had no love for the USA, what did "we" expect????, start painting more signs???

[GrumpyOldMan]

With a lot of conditions / requirements.

The current retreat had nothing to do with the "treaty" agreeing to leave in May........the withdrawal happened way after May.

Yup, lots of conditions and requirements. And they were mostly living up to them, not all but mostly.

As to why we left now, I was not at the meeting you apparently attended where the decision was made, since you KNOW it had nothing to do with the treaty... Please share what was said.

[dewilson58]

I grew up in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Liberia - father was CIA.

Thanks for the non-political information.

Thank your dad & mom (she was right there) for their service.

[tvbound]

It is either incompetence, or uncaring disregard for the lives of US Citizens and Allies who are being abandoned. Regrettably it seems a cold uncaring disregard. When asked about the people falling to their death from planes as they tried to escape the Taliban, Biden said "C'mon man, that was four or five days ago". I can not be too hard on him, as I believe he has a mental issue. Those who defend him on the other hand... Just terrible people. So desperate to make it seem like they have accomplished something that they turn their backs on men, women and children.

"It is either incompetence, or uncaring disregard for the lives of US Citizens and Allies"

Is it safe to assume you feel the same about our Kurdish allies, that we simply abandoned/left - without even an attempt at evacuating?

[dewilson58]

Yup, lots of conditions and requirements. And they were mostly living up to them, not all but mostly.

As to why we left now, I was not at the meeting you apparently attended where the decision was made, since you KNOW it had nothing to do with the treaty... Please share what was said.

Let's not get childish.

I hear one said say.........well it's because of the agreement by the prior president. When has the current president kept to anything the prior did or signed?? and if we stuck to the agreement, we would have been out by May.

[Kenswing]

I grew up in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Liberia - father was CIA. he sept his career in the Middle East. We (and other Americans) were evacuated form Pakistan, to Afghanistan and from Liberia to US.



In both cases, state department (it’s not the military, its the state department with the CIA who knows) knew EXACTLY what and where things were happening. you don’t provide billions of assistance and not get that information.
Dad still knows a thing or two. This is from him..
State Department knows where and who every American is, don’t kid yourself. They could have gotten everyone out if they wanted. Maybe not the spouse of an Afghan living in a village who doesn’t want to leave. Most did not want to get left behind. The Afghans who provided support to the US certainly didn’t think the Taliban was ever coming back in control - do you think they would have supported us?
The whole pull out of Afghanistan was not supposed to happen, it was a political talking point. Neither president (the R or the D) would have pulled the troops out.
We had fairly low troop numbers, generally staying on the airbase. Afghan’s were providing security, we were providing air support. It was expensive, we were paying the afghan troops and bribing the village leaders.
We have 3.5 million troops in South Korea, 60,000 in Germany, 50,000 in Japan.
China put pressure on the US to get out of Afghanistan and we (someone) caved to the pressure.
Not even close. We have about 30,000 troops in South Korea. We don't even have 3.5 million active duty military.

As far as Afghanistan, wars aren't won there. They are just perpetuated. Simple fact is we got caught with our pants down. The Taliban mowed over the Afghan security forces much faster than the U.S. wanted to believe possible. Now we're paying for that mistake. Yes, it is easy to Monday morning quarterback. Hopefully we can get out the people that need to get out without any further loss of life.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Let's not get childish.

I hear one said say.........well it's because of the agreement by the prior president. When has the current president kept to anything the prior did or signed?? and if we stuck to the agreement, we would have been out by May.

Actually, it is very rare for a President to unilaterally pull out of a Treaty a previous administration had sign on behalf of the US. Well, until recently it has been rare. America's word used to be sacred around the world. Now, not so much. And this "botched" withdrawal is not helping repair the damage to our reputation.

[jimjamuser]

"I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind."

THAT is a 'stain of shame,' that can never be washed away.
I agree with the contents of that post. The Kurds were good fighters and good allies and we left them to die. We keep doing stunts like that and Britain, Germany, and Australia will never trust us enough to be allies again.

[jimjamuser]

Thank you, and to add to your excellent reply, we TOLD them we were getting out in May. That was the agreement we made. Then for whatever reason, we delayed the departure until now. That would emphasize your point of people hearing but not believing. I expect (I do not know) that the pull-out was delayed to better prepare for the exit.

And, also, I EXPECT/THINK the plan was to trust the Afgan military to hold for at least a few weeks or months so we could transfer security to them as we pulled out. What appears to have happened is the Taliban told the Afgan military, stand down and accept a bribe or die. And they chose to stand down. At least that is what appears to have happened. If so, yes, it was a serious mistake to trust them - I don't know what we did, if we did. It is just conjecture on my part.
I question why we did NOT wait until the WINTER to start to pull out. For some reason (?) the Taliban likes to go back home (to outlying areas, I suppose) for the winter and prefers to fight in the summer. It could be because the mountain passes and roads are not functional in WINTER? I do not KNOW for sure and would like some Afghanistan veteran to straighten me out on this score.

[dewilson58]

Congrats on the thread lasting more than 5 minutes!!!


:coolsmiley:

[Toymeister]

The fact that Biden has been able to get thousands of our people and refugees out safely is pretty impressive. It could have gone more smoothly, sure. It also could've been disastrous. There were victims of this war throughout the last 20 years. Over 2400 US troops were already killed in Afghanistan during the conflict, before Biden was even elected President.

As someone who was there I can assure you that no President deserves credit for this evacuation. That goes to the Airmen and Soliders and the untold thousands of federal employees, logisticians, DoD contractors, not the president, not by a long shot.

[jimjamuser]

No politics here

Wonder why we could maintain a very large base in Germany for about 75 years after we defeated the Nazi and help ensure a stable government. Same for Japan. Same for Manila.

But now a relatively small force left in Afghanistan that mostly operated air power and intelligence services for the remote locations from a secure base at Bagram was deemed urgent to close.

I question why our leaders are making these decisions.
Germany and Japan had an HONORABLE military and governments that SIGNED a SURRENDER agreement with the US. The Afghanistan Taliban were a loose coalition of about 15 stone-age tribes that never stopped fighting because they knew that eventually, we would leave. 20 years ago no top country wanted to stay there because Afghanistan had NOTHING worth trading for. Today, it is a little different because Afghanistan has lithium. But, it is in remote mountains and roads are a problem.

[John Mayes]

congrats on the thread lasting more than 5 minutes!!!


:coolsmiley:

lol!!

[jimjamuser]

I grew up in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Liberia - father was CIA. he sept his career in the Middle East. We (and other Americans) were evacuated form Pakistan, to Afghanistan and from Liberia to US.



In both cases, state department (it’s not the military, its the state department with the CIA who knows) knew EXACTLY what and where things were happening. you don’t provide billions of assistance and not get that information.
Dad still knows a thing or two. This is from him..
State Department knows where and who every American is, don’t kid yourself. They could have gotten everyone out if they wanted. Maybe not the spouse of an Afghan living in a village who doesn’t want to leave. Most did not want to get left behind. The Afghans who provided support to the US certainly didn’t think the Taliban was ever coming back in control - do you think they would have supported us?
The whole pull out of Afghanistan was not supposed to happen, it was a political talking point. Neither president (the R or the D) would have pulled the troops out.
We had fairly low troop numbers, generally staying on the airbase. Afghan’s were providing security, we were providing air support. It was expensive, we were paying the afghan troops and bribing the village leaders.
We have 3.5 million troops in South Korea, 60,000 in Germany, 50,000 in Japan.
China put pressure on the US to get out of Afghanistan and we (someone) caved to the pressure.
Some (?) country that doesn't like us probably put pressure on to get us out of Afghanistan. It may have been for Lithium? It could have been to prevent the US from controlling a country like Afghanistan which has a strategic location? It could be a country that wants to see the heroin trade continue?

[jimjamuser]

As someone who was there I can assure you that no President deserves credit for this evacuation. That goes to the Airmen and Soliders and the untold thousands of federal employees, logisticians, DoD contractors, not the president, not by a long shot.
If ANY President gets the blame whenever something goes badly, why can't that President get credit when something goes right?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

As someone who was there I can assure you that no President deserves credit for this evacuation. That goes to the Airmen and Soliders and the untold thousands of federal employees, logisticians, DoD contractors, not the president, not by a long shot.

Yes they all get the credit for doing all the legwork, the physical work, the strategic planning, logistics, arrangements.

But they wouldn't have done any of it if the President hadn't said "okay let's do that." He could've said no. He made the tough decision to say yes. He's being lambasted for it.

So if you want to give all those people the "credit" for doing it, then you need to accept that certain of the American citizenry are blaming Biden for all the things that went wrong - when - according to you, he didn't do anything at all. It was all those other people who did it all.

[ureout]

Congrats on the thread lasting more than 5 minutes!!!


:coolsmiley:


I agree... especially 1 of your threads :a040::a040:

[billethkid]

the last plane has left and "....we are out...".

Discussion about who may still be there?

[Topspinmo]

Had we just been smart enough to include the Afghani government in the withdrawal talks, instead of ONLY the Taliban, more than likely the whole country wouldn't have fallen to the Taliban in a record time - that no one could predict. At least smarter heads eventually prevailed, when the asinine idea of inviting the Taliban to Camp David on 9/11 was floated, to 'celebrate' the original May withdrawal. Let's hope we learned a big lesson here.

The Afghan leaders didn’t have problem getting out. So, they most had likely fly on the wall?

[DARFAP]

There is no logic

[Topspinmo]

If ANY President gets the blame whenever something goes badly, why can't that President get credit when something goes right?

I guess you don’t understand the ( ) system of us against them?

[Koapaka]

the last plane has left and "....we are out...".

Discussion about who may still be there?


According to a tweet there were 7 busloads of American women that were blocked from being able to access the airport and are now in taliban hands....for starters Emily Miller tweeted "We’re dealing with Kabul. There’s 7 buses of female American citizens. The CG refused to open the gate. We have a congressman with us and he had the state department reach out. MG Donahue refused. 10 minutes ago the females were taken by the Taliban. They are likely dead now."

[John Mayes]

Yes they all get the credit for doing all the legwork, the physical work, the strategic planning, logistics, arrangements.

But they wouldn't have done any of it if the President hadn't said "okay let's do that." He could've said no. He made the tough decision to say yes. He's being lambasted for it.

So if you want to give all those people the "credit" for doing it, then you need to accept that certain of the American citizenry are blaming Biden for all the things that went wrong - when - according to you, he didn't do anything at all. It was all those other people who did it all.

He’s being lambasted and rightfully so. Read the WP Editorial Opinion piece from today. This isn’t about R or D. This is about the global perception of America’s incompetence.

[Papa_lecki]

According to a tweet there were 7 busloads of American women that were blocked from being able to access the airport and are now in taliban hands....for starters Emily Miller tweeted "We’re dealing with Kabul. There’s 7 buses of female American citizens. The CG refused to open the gate. We have a congressman with us and he had the state department reach out. MG Donahue refused. 10 minutes ago the females were taken by the Taliban. They are likely dead now."

Here’s the article inThe NY Times. They were students at the American University. Most were women.

American University of Kabul Students Trying to Flee Were Sent Home - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/29/world/taliban-american-university-of-kabul-afghanistan.html)

[Eg_cruz]

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.
Thank you and your family for your service🙏🏻💙💙🙏🏻

[Villages Kahuna]

So much easier said than done. Once we began to withdraw our military and Afghan employees, the “government” we set up and the army we equipped and claimed we had trained began to quickly collapse as the result. Withdrawing before every single person who wanted to be removed from the country was impossible as soon as we lost control of the country and those desiring to leave couldn’t safely gain access to the airport.

The Taliban essentially won the conflict when the terms of our surrender were documented in the Doha Agreement agreed to by president Trump in 2020, then worsened when president Biden announced the specific date when we would leave.

Once our political leaders made those mistakes, the sequence of withdrawal you suggest became impossible. It was amazing that we were able to get as many people safely out of the country as we did. But our failure to fulfill the promises we made to the Afghans who were loyal to us for years won’t be forgotten by those with whom we attempt to make future agreements. Afghanistan will be another important reason why the reliability and consistency of U.S. foreign policy is mistrusted.

[George Page]

what I don't understand is that the treaty with the taliban was signed in Feb, of 2020... why didn't American citizens start leaving then?? also why were most of the armed forces removed before the evacuations were complete??

The Time to leave was the day after we killed Bin Laden.

[MDLNB]

the last plane has left and "....we are out...".

Discussion about who may still be there?
OVER 300 Americans stranded, left behind. But, we got over a hundred thousand potential terrorists out.

[Cindyd]

Total incompetence! What rational person would pull out of a fortress like Bachram. With 2 runways & aircraft in middle of night, before evacuating people?

[B-flat]

there is no doubt that it is incompetence.

ditto!!!!

[Bucco]

no logic here for some time now. that's why the whole thing is a c!us+er..@k. they avoided a plan in place that their predecessor built just because of who he is, imo.

Not being a wise guy, but could you link me to that plan that was avoided ?

Maybe the 5000 extra terrorists released screwed up the plan.

There is no way this retreat could have happened without the perils.

[MandoMan]

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

Thank you. Well said. There are also medical workers and charity workers who believe they are crucial to saving lives and decide to risk their own lives to save others. (Sort of like the military, but with differences.) There are a few who have developed local ties, perhaps through marriage, and decided they won’t leave until they can get their families our at the same time. There are a few who are running engineering projects that will fall to pieces if they leave.

I’ve been listening to Shelby Foote’s three volumes on the Civil War for the second time (100 hours). One thing those books make clear is that whatever plans were made, on either side, could be foiled by muddy roads, a river rising, tired horses, sick troops, not arriving somewhere on time, misunderstanding orders, or failure to carry out orders. A couple minutes one way or another could win or lose a battle. Plans could be leaked or intercepted. Lucky shots could change the course of battles. Information failures and logistics problems could be fatal. (In a way it’s a bit like how there are so many things on football fields that can change the course of events.)

I think that after a horrible muddle caused by the unexpected happening, our country—government, Pentagon, and those around the world working on this—did a pretty wonderful job ramping up the effort in just a few days to taking out thousands a day to somewhere else. I’m reminded of Dunkirk, and what a muddle that was, and how much less certain of success it seemed at the time, and how close it came to not working, and how many didn’t make it home, and how it was a desperate retreat recast as a victory, and how even civilians pitched in to help save lives.

[Jeanette179]

Billions of equipment left behind, thousands of terrorists released from prison, names and addresses of our contractors released, people falling from planes trying to escape.....
Glad we left, but GEEZZZ

[GrumpyOldMan]

The Time to leave was the day after we killed Bin Laden.

The right answer.

[alemorkam]

We left a busload of Americans there that wanted out. Decision of our president AND Joint Chief of Staff. If that bus had 50 marines would they have made the same decision to leave them there?

[christine J Toft]

Had we just been smart enough to include the Afghani government in the withdrawal talks, instead of ONLY the Taliban, more than likely the whole country wouldn't have fallen to the Taliban in a record time - that no one could predict. At least smarter heads eventually prevailed, when the asinine idea of inviting the Taliban to Camp David on 9/11 was floated, to 'celebrate' the original May withdrawal. Let's hope we learned a big lesson here.
You mean the "Afghan Government" that cut and ran?????

[christine J Toft]

Yup, lots of conditions and requirements. And they were mostly living up to them, not all but mostly.

As to why we left now, I was not at the meeting you apparently attended where the decision was made, since you KNOW it had nothing to do with the treaty... Please share what was said.
Isn't it amazing how many arm chair quarterbacks there are. All knowing... Must have been privy to so much classified information.

[kenoc7]

There is no doubt that it is incompetence.
There is no doubt. that it wasn't incompetence. It was the situation overtaking all reasonable contingency planning.

[jfkilduff]

Because an American family was trying to get out when we left and now has to be smuggled out!!!! According to a senator

[John41]

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:

There is no logic to it. A result of a poorly executed evacuation delayed from May to August for a 9/11 photo op.

[Bellavita]

Sacrifice more young men and women in an in winnable situation? I would make this decision and go back or use leverage to get Americans out. Let’s not forget what we did accomplish 125,000 out that is remarkable. Biden got out period sometimes that exit isn’t pretty.



What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:

[John41]

///

[I'm Popeye!]

The Taliban taking credential papers from American citizens, interpreters and their families, forcing them to stay in Afghanistan is a hostage situation. The American troops should've gone in and rescue its people before leaving, period!

[I'm Popeye!]

Let’s not forget what we did accomplish 125,000 out that is remarkable. Biden got out period sometimes that exit isn’t pretty.

Yes, and the United States government don't even know who half of those 125K people are.

[Holpat39]

Logically the move would have been people removed first, military equipment either removed or dismantled and troops last. It seems announcement was troops first, forget about dismantling equipment and people last. Not a wise move. They had plenty of time to start the process of removing citizens when Biden announced sometime in April that the extract date was 8/31/2021

[Byte1]

Yes, and the United States government don't even know who half of those 125K people are.

About a hundred thousand possible terrorists, but who's counting.

[John41]

Yes they all get the credit for doing all the legwork, the physical work, the strategic planning, logistics, arrangements.

But they wouldn't have done any of it if the President hadn't said "okay let's do that." He could've said no. He made the tough decision to say yes. He's being lambasted for it.

So if you want to give all those people the "credit" for doing it, then you need to accept that certain of the American citizenry are blaming Biden for all the things that went wrong - when - according to you, he didn't do anything at all. It was all those other people who did it all.

“Yes okay let’s do that backwards.” Remove troops first. Oops send more troops back in. Brilliant.

[Spalumbos62]

True, but there are always contingency plans written in. Even the military members that I know said it is plainly a cluster **** as bad as the assault on Iran way back. Probably going to be worse unless they can pull a rabbit out of their @$$ and pull off a miracle. The way it looks, quite a few will be left behind.

Wasn't there a person they had captured and was suppose to be part if the deal.....was he released?

[Bucco]

About a hundred thousand possible terrorists, but who's counting.

And your numbers are based on ??????

We do know how many terrorists were released as part of the deal, and that included the “big guy”, the actual leader of the Taliban who we were told we should never trust but negotiated with them.

Look, you can search for blame, but this was never ever going to go smoothly, Calling names, as I read on here which is typical solves nothing. None of us were there and all the constant twisting on certain networks will not make anything any better. Had the past administration even talked to the current administration, perhaps, it might have changed a bit.

Remember, in my memory, this is the first administration to leave office and not brief the incoming.
Administration (intelligence, etc.)

Maybe made no difference but I am not sure what those who are calling people names know that everyone else is dumb on, but this had no chance from the get go and I mean from years ago.

[Bay Kid]

It is all part of their plan. We surrender.... Everything about this evacuation seems to be about helping the enemy.

[Taltarzac725]

The U.S. destroyed or 'demilitarized' all equipment left at Kabul airport, depriving the Taliban of more trophies | The Week (https://theweek.com/afghanistan-war/1004338/the-us-destroyed-or-demilitarized-all-equipment-left-at-kabul-airport)

They did make the military equipment unusable for it specific purposes.

[Byte1]

The U.S. destroyed or 'demilitarized' all equipment left at Kabul airport, depriving the Taliban of more trophies | The Week (https://theweek.com/afghanistan-war/1004338/the-us-destroyed-or-demilitarized-all-equipment-left-at-kabul-airport)

They did make the military equipment unusable for it specific purposes.

AT THE AIRPORT. Not all the military equipment. Just the airport.

[jamorela]

It is either incompetence, or uncaring disregard for the lives of US Citizens and Allies who are being abandoned. Regrettably it seems a cold uncaring disregard. When asked about the people falling to their death from planes as they tried to escape the Taliban, Biden said "C'mon man, that was four or five days ago". I can not be too hard on him, as I believe he has a mental issue. Those who defend him on the other hand... Just terrible people. So desperate to make it seem like they have accomplished something that they turn their backs on men, women and children.


"C'mon man, that was four or five days ago".

That was truly unbelievable!

[stadry]

the commander-in-chief has the last word !

[dewilson58]

AT THE AIRPORT. Not all the military equipment. Just the airport.

compared to what they left already, why bother??

[dewilson58]

Sacrifice more young men and women in an in winnable situation? I would make this decision and go back or use leverage to get Americans out. Let’s not forget what we did accomplish 125,000 out that is remarkable. Biden got out period sometimes that exit isn’t pretty.

Same tune if you daughter was left behind??

Women don't stand a chance over there.

[dewilson58]

We left a busload of Americans there that wanted out. Decision of our president AND Joint Chief of Staff.

I heard that...............is this true?? I could not find support.

[petiteone]

There is ALWAYS an emergency evacuation plan for Americans in other countries. And there are ways to contact Americans. Most Americans in country are listed at the embassy and a means of contacting them with an evacuation order is known. The problem is that the plan was not utilized properly, if at all. Americans are instructed ahead of time where to meet for evacuation. It appears that this was not done.
Just my opinion, but this is probably an unusual circumstance where the leader of the country flees, leaving the country in the hands of the enemy. Even so, the evacuation plan should have stipulated such a contingency.
And yes the military has a plan written up for just about every foreign country. When civilians/bureaucrats/congress get in the way of set plans, it is inevitable that we have a catastrophe.

I always enjoy the arm chair quarterbacks who think they could have done better than the professionals. It takes 12 hours to travel (on roads monitored by road bandits, war lords, al-Queda and God knows who ) from some large or remote cities in Afghanistan to Kabul. Not every American registers with the embassy. The Gov warned Americans to start leaving in April. There is a plan to try to remove all left behind 100 known Americans who still want to leave. Some Americans say they want to stay. I spent time there after the invasion 20 yrs ago on a medical mission and there is danger everywhere.

[Geodyssey]

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

:posting:

The logic? The US lost the war, so was forced out by the winners. Just like Vietnam.

Don't worry, the US & friends will find another war soon. Lots more money to be made.

[Chi-Town]

We left a busload of Americans there that wanted out. Decision of our president AND Joint Chief of Staff. If that bus had 50 marines would they have made the same decision to leave them there?

What?! No photo?

[newgirl]

Nobody has said that they just left anyone there. I believe what I heard from all sources that we are still going to get them out if they want out.
Wish folks listened to facts not entertainers for news.

[Byte1]

No bus load of Americans left behind photo available or found, but how about equipment and service dogs? Sure hope the dogs are taken care of properly. Pretty sure that the Talban will not eat them, but hopefully they won't abuse them either.

[jimjamuser]

So much easier said than done. Once we began to withdraw our military and Afghan employees, the “government” we set up and the army we equipped and claimed we had trained began to quickly collapse as the result. Withdrawing before every single person who wanted to be removed from the country was impossible as soon as we lost control of the country and those desiring to leave couldn’t safely gain access to the airport.

The Taliban essentially won the conflict when the terms of our surrender were documented in the Doha Agreement agreed to by president Trump in 2020, then worsened when president Biden announced the specific date when we would leave.

Once our political leaders made those mistakes, the sequence of withdrawal you suggest became impossible. It was amazing that we were able to get as many people safely out of the country as we did. But our failure to fulfill the promises we made to the Afghans who were loyal to us for years won’t be forgotten by those with whom we attempt to make future agreements. Afghanistan will be another important reason why the reliability and consistency of U.S. foreign policy is mistrusted.
I wonder why the US did NOT wait until the WINTER to leave - because the Taliban prefer to FIGHT in the SUMMER?

[jimjamuser]

There is no doubt. that it wasn't incompetence. It was the situation overtaking all reasonable contingency planning.
I am sure that there is a LOT of truth there. I still wonder about why we didn't wait until the WINTER TO WITHDRAW?

[Bill Dozer]

If the Military Advisers came up with that Plan, they should be court marshaled. If the brainless idiot in the White House ignored their expertise, he should be impeached. He voted against the Military Plans to evacuate VN in the 70's and he probably recalled that decision.

[dewilson58]

If the Military Advisers came up with that Plan, they should be court marshaled. If the brainless idiot in the White House ignored their expertise, he should be impeached. He voted against the Military Plans to evacuate VN in the 70's and he probably recalled that decision.

I can't imagine our Military minds came up with this plan.

I can't imagine "we" didn't see the Taliban taking over the countryside rapidly.

[Chi-Town]

Consider Afghanistan a sand trap. You got yourself in there, and now you want to get out. You hit a shot that flies the green and think to yourself "well, out is out". As you move on to the subsequent holes you try to avoid the sand traps. But you never do.

[I'm Popeye!]

Nobody has said that they just left anyone there. I believe what I heard from all sources that we are still going to get them out if they want out.
Wish folks listened to facts not entertainers for news.

And who is going to get them out, we have no Solders, not even an Embassy there.
Listened to, which side of the facts are you talking about?

[billethkid]

Is leaving a few hundred behind an accomplishment.

The measure is leaving no one behind....there is NO EXCUSE for it. NONE!

Leaving the dogs? Totally unacceptable!
Leaving tactical equipment operable? Really?

Not in the service many of us served in!!!

8/31/2021 Disgrace!

[I'm Popeye!]

I can't imagine our Military minds came up with this plan.



How about a military WOKE 5-Star General who thinks that the American White Supremos is more dangerous than the Muslim terrorist.

[Jeanette179]

Absolutely correct

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Here’s the article inThe NY Times. They were students at the American University. Most were women.

American University of Kabul Students Trying to Flee Were Sent Home - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/29/world/taliban-american-university-of-kabul-afghanistan.html)

According to a tweet by a Qanon spokesperson and "face" for OANN "media" which is an alt-right Qanon sponsored political conspiracy network.

Meanwhile back in reality, there are 7 American women (not 7 busloads of American women) among the busloads of Afghan refugees that the USA will get home to the USA.

It's difficult to do because the Taliban is running the country right now - which they are doing because the previous government tucked tail and ran the second they realized that the USA was going to make them stand up for themselves for the first time in 20 years.

[Stu from NYC]

According to a tweet by a Qanon spokesperson and "face" for OANN "media" which is an alt-right Qanon sponsored political conspiracy network.

Meanwhile back in reality, there are 7 American women (not 7 busloads of American women) among the busloads of Afghan refugees that the USA will get home to the USA.

It's difficult to do because the Taliban is running the country right now - which they are doing because the previous government tucked tail and ran the second they realized that the USA was going to make them stand up for themselves for the first time in 20 years.

And we did not have a plan on how to do the evacuation if the Afghan army collapsed?
Very sad.

[golfnut]

The OP implies, my interpretation, that leaving people behind was intentional. I completely disagree with that interpretation,. I believe that decisions were made based on the best advice of top military and state department advisors.

There is NO way after 20 years we were just going to walk away and make a clean break. It has NEVER happened in all the places we have sent our military. It is just reality.

It is very easy to armchair quarterback after the fact. But, I don't accept the "incompetence" argument. People saying that were not there do not know what information was used to make the decision.

I agree with this post, spot on.

[jimjamuser]

And who is going to get them out, we have no Solders, not even an Embassy there.
Listened to, which side of the facts are you talking about?
I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that, if the Taliban lied about wanting to usher US citizens or others that helped the US out of the country (they probably lied) - then the CIA may TRY to get them out by helicopter. Some may try to get to Pakistan or some other country overland (which is probably as hard as walking to the moon)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And we did not have a plan on how to do the evacuation if the Afghan army collapsed?
Very sad.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.


You and I and everyone on this thread know nothing about the plans that were made in advance of the withdrawal. For all we know, this was the BEST possible thing that COULD have happened, and it went flawlessly, according to plan. The only thing we can know for absolute sure:

1. This war started when Bush was President.
2. It continued while Obama was President.
3. trump "negotiated" a deal to withdraw by May and released 5000 Talibans from prison, including the leader who has taken over Afghanistan.
4. Biden met with the various military organizations and departments of our country and came up with *a* plan to withdraw. No singular person made this decision, and there were leaders of these various departments and organizations who have been with these departments and organizations throughout the previous administration, and the current one.

[Bucco]

You know nothing, Jon Snow.


You and I and everyone on this thread know nothing about the plans that were made in advance of the withdrawal. For all we know, this was the BEST possible thing that COULD have happened, and it went flawlessly, according to plan. The only thing we can know for absolute sure:

1. This war started when Bush was President.
2. It continued while Obama was President.
3. trump "negotiated" a deal to withdraw by May and released 5000 Talibans from prison, including the leader who has taken over Afghanistan.
4. Biden met with the various military organizations and departments of our country and came up with *a* plan to withdraw. No singular person made this decision, and there were leaders of these various departments and organizations who have been with these departments and organizations throughout the previous administration, and the current one.

It is remarkable how “know nothing’s” parrot the same thing over and over, and then, even more remarkably come on a forum and repeat it as the truth.

Our elections have never been rigged or crooked, but the electorate.....that’s another story.

[John41]

You know nothing,

trump "negotiated" a deal to withdraw by May and released 5000 Talibans from prison, including the leader who has taken over Afghanistan.
.

The current leader of the Taliban was released from Gitmo in 2014
—————————
Obama '''released Taliban leader Khairullah Khairkhwa from Guantanamo Bay in 2014 prisoner swap''' (https://www.the-sun.com/news/3488828/obama)...
Aug 17, 2021 · BARACK Obama released a Taliban commander in 2014 who helped orchestrated this week's takeover of Afghanistan, reports say. Khairullah Khairkhwa was arrested in Pakistan after 9/11 and was sent to Gitmo in 2002 before his release as part of a prisoner swap involving an American “deserter”.

[GrumpyOldMan]

And we did not have a plan on how to do the evacuation if the Afghan army collapsed?
Very sad.

Why do you assume we did not have a plan? Because it suits your politics? Everything I have heard and read said there was a plan. Plans sometimes go sideways. Even the best of plans.

But, it seems all the "patriots" on here can't wait to assign blame for things the administration is not KNOWN to have done - ie. pull out without a plan.

If you attended the meeting where they said, "lets pull out with out a plan", please let us know when and where that was.

[dewilson58]

And we did not have a plan on how to do the evacuation if the Afghan army collapsed?
Very sad.

The president just changed his statement................he said it was planned for. A 180 turn about.

[John41]

And we did not have a plan on how to do the evacuation if the Afghan army collapsed?
Very sad.

Yes sad, even pathetic. Only a month earlier we were assured the Afghan government was strong enough to continue. Then the weekend of the collapse Blinken assured us it wouldn’t collapse over the weekend. Then when the collapse occurred it was “expected” to end in chaos. Liar, Liar pants on fire. Even the media such as WaPo is calling the withdrawal a catastrophe. And they have fact checked and given him four Pinocchio’s.

[MDLNB]

Why do you assume we did not have a plan? Because it suits your politics? Everything I have heard and read said there was a plan. Plans sometimes go sideways. Even the best of plans.

But, it seems all the "patriots" on here can't wait to assign blame for things the administration is not KNOWN to have done - ie. pull out without a plan.

If you attended the meeting where they said, "lets pull out with out a plan", please let us know when and where that was.


Why is every motivation that you do not agree with, have to be a political agenda?

[dewilson58]

Why do you assume we did not have a plan? .

Our president was interviewed by George S. and he stated no one predicted the quick fall and it was not planned for.

[MDLNB]

The current leader of the Taliban was released from Gitmo in 2014
—————————
Obama '''released Taliban leader Khairullah Khairkhwa from Guantanamo Bay in 2014 prisoner swap''' (https://www.the-sun.com/news/3488828/obama)...
Aug 17, 2021 · BARACK Obama released a Taliban commander in 2014 who helped orchestrated this week's takeover of Afghanistan, reports say. Khairullah Khairkhwa was arrested in Pakistan after 9/11 and was sent to Gitmo in 2002 before his release as part of a prisoner swap involving an American “deserter”.


I'm sure that your information did not come from an approved source....:a040:

[John41]

Why do you assume we did not have a plan? Because it suits your politics? Everything I have heard and read said there was a plan. Plans sometimes go sideways. Even the best of plans.
.

Yes there was a plan.
Withdraw Americans and Afghans first. Then destroy all military equipment and bases. Then withdraw the soldiers.

The plan was executed backwards by pulling soldiers out first then having to send back in even more. Now the Taliban are already using the military equipment left there and we have hostages who can’t get out. And it’s admitted a list of names of Americans and Afghan friendliest was given to the Taliban.

[Bucco]

Yes there was a plan.
Withdraw Americans and Afghans first. Then destroy all military equipment and bases. Then withdraw the soldiers.

The plan was executed backwards by pulling soldiers out first then having to send back in even more. Now the Taliban are already using the military equipment left there and we have hostages who can’t get out. And it’s admitted a list of names of Americans and Afghan friendliest was given to the Taliban.

Where is this plan officially “nested” ?

[dewilson58]

And it’s admitted a list of names of Americans and Afghan friendliest was given to the Taliban.

Has anyone heard of the logic of doing this???

This is like giving the drug lords a list of our undercover cops.

:popcorn:

[MDLNB]

Has anyone heard of the logic of doing this???

This is like giving the drug lords a list of our undercover cops.

:popcorn:


Kind of like revealing the names of our CIA operatives. And it should be treated with the same legal consequences too. Those folks are as good as dead if they are not in hiding or fleeing for the border.

[MDLNB]

Where is this plan officially “nested” ?


Wow, that's an opening for a great response..........:1rotfl:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Our president was interviewed by George S. and he stated no one predicted the quick fall and it was not planned for.

So, your point is that not planning for every possible eventuality equates to not having a plan at all. Seriously?

You are going with that.

No plan, no thought, complete incompetence because something that his advisors did not predict would happen happened.

He had a plan. The plan went sideways when unexpected things happened.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Has anyone heard of the logic of doing this???

This is like giving the drug lords a list of our undercover cops.

:popcorn:

Has anyone heard of the logic of releasing battle hardened Taliban terrorists and the actual leader of the Taliban - based on promises made by the Taliban that everyone agreed could not be trusted.

Talk about total and complete incompetence!

[MDLNB]

Has anyone heard of the logic of releasing battle hardened Taliban terrorists and the actual leader of the Taliban - based on promises made by the Taliban that everyone agreed could not be trusted.

Talk about total and complete incompetence!


Uh oh, another political comment.

[LonnyP]

Are you talking about when we pulled out of Syria or where?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Uh oh, another political comment.

Okay, so claiming the current administration is completely incompetent and proceeded put all those lives at risk because they didn't even bother to have a plan was not political, even thought that is NO proof.

But my statement that the previous administration bungled the release of 5,000 enemies and the leader of the Taliban, which is a fact is political.

Wow. Amazing. Let's not allow any facts, because they might hurt some conservative snowflakes feelings, but let's allow all conspiracies, opinions, and any other foundationless nonsense free press.

Got it.

BTW, if the moderators want to ban me, that is fine. These threads are getting silly, simply say "this is not political, it's simply my opinion" and then proceed to spread baseless conspiracies, misinformation and lies all about the politics of a situation. Yeah, politics are not allowed, right.

[Bucco]

The current leader of the Taliban was released from Gitmo in 2014
—————————
Obama '''released Taliban leader Khairullah Khairkhwa from Guantanamo Bay in 2014 prisoner swap''' (https://www.the-sun.com/news/3488828/obama)...
Aug 17, 2021 · BARACK Obama released a Taliban commander in 2014 who helped orchestrated this week's takeover of Afghanistan, reports say. Khairullah Khairkhwa was arrested in Pakistan after 9/11 and was sent to Gitmo in 2002 before his release as part of a prisoner swap involving an American “deserter”.

First, there was no “takeover”. There was a “legit” agreement reached between the United States and the Taliban that this “takeover” as you call it would take place.

Afghanistan government was not part of this, nor invited. It marked a milestone for the Taliban to be recognized by the United States, and gave them instant credibility.

The person you refer to, I am sure was part of the suicide mission that caused the turmoil at the airport, among many more out the recent 5000 released.

HOWEVER, THE founder of the Taliban is Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar. He headed the negotiations with the US and is pictured many times with Pompeo when they met. He was being held by Pakistan and was released at our request as part of this deal. He is potentially the new President of Afghanistan.

Of course, any other Taliban ever released at any time would be potentially part of this situation, so this is extremely disingenuous to say what your link says. Not a total lie, but it is by inference. Their head guy was just let go last year in this deal.

And I am very sure you will find Biden largely stuck to the Trump-negotiated agreement, but delayed the deadline until Sept. 11, 2021. U.S. troops began to depart in May......

Copy, paste and save. If I am wrong, please call me on it, but I feel very confident. The suicide bomber gave lots a reason to make unsupported accusations.