Legal constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates

[CoachKandSportsguy]

For those who want to educate themselves not do research on court court rulings on vaccine mandates, here's an article on the history of public health and vaccine mandates. . .

Even Conservative Judges Haven’t Shot Down Vaccine Mandates - The American Prospect (https://prospect.org/justice/even-conservative-judges-havent-shot-down-vaccine-mandates/)

So for those who claim that the vaccine mandate is not legal, don't really have much legal ground for support in the last 100 years of court rulings. . .

but they can always hope. . . .

[GrumpyOldMan]

Yup, think about the Baker Act. A person can be incarcerated if they are determined by doctors (medical experts) that they are a danger to themselves or others.

There are numerous other examples. So, we don't have mask and vaccine mandates because the politicians don't want to face the possible public backlash at the polls.

As it seems always for the past decade or so, politics and party are more important than public welfare.

[MDLNB]

Yup, think about the Baker Act. A person can be incarcerated if they are determined by doctors (medical experts) that they are a danger to themselves or others.

There are numerous other examples. So, we don't have mask and vaccine mandates because the politicians don't want to face the possible public backlash at the polls.

As it seems always for the past decade or so, politics and party are more important than public welfare.


Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.

Common, jeez.

NO it is NOT my opinion, it is LAW. Your angry ex-wife can get a few doctors to sign off on your being a danger to yourself and you are committed and you stay there until a doctor says you are no longer a danger.

There are literally hundreds of years of precedence in the same manner. And our legal system is based on precedence.

[MDLNB]

Common, jeez.

NO it is NOT my opinion, it is LAW. Your angry ex-wife can get a few doctors to sign off on your being a danger to yourself and you are committed and you stay there until a doctor says you are no longer a danger.

There are literally hundreds of years of precedence in the same manner. And our legal system is based on precedence.


Wouldn't know about an "ex-wife" as my wife was a keeper. And we are not speaking of mental illness anyway. Play with the law all you wish but real life is dynamic, not static.

[Garywt]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.

[MDLNB]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.


I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view. Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Wouldn't know about an "ex-wife" as my wife was a keeper. And we are not speaking of mental illness anyway. Play with the law all you wish but real life is dynamic, not static.

There is no playing with the law, the Baker act is just one example of the government being able to enforce laws to protect the public from individuals, as the OP said in this thread. Children not allowed into school without vaccinations is another, there are literally hundreds on the books. The government CAN and DOES enact laws to protect the public.

Not opinion, just fact.

And obviously, I don't know you or your wife, so I was speaking in general terms.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view. Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.

You keep using the term liberties, and it does not apply, that is in fact an opinion or yours, it is NOT the law.

[waynet]

Personal freedom equals no responsibility

[MDLNB]

You keep using the term liberties, and it does not apply, that is in fact an opinion or yours, it is NOT the law.


Ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is NO law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as I know Martial Law has not been declared. In America we still have the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and I may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but I respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, I DO NOT demand others to live according to my desires. I don't care for red colored cars, but I do not feel they should be banned from The Villages.

So far the law does not mandate vaccinations or masks. Just because I may be vaccinated and wear a mask if I feel it prudent, I do not demand that of others. I do not infringe upon their liberty to make their own personal choice.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is NO law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as I know Martial Law has not been declared. In America we still have the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and I may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but I respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, I DO NOT demand others to live according to my desires. I don't care for red colored cars, but I do not feel they should be banned from The Villages.

So far the law does not mandate vaccinations or masks. Just because I may be vaccinated and wear a mask if I feel it prudent, I do not demand that of others. I do not infringe upon their liberty to make their own personal choice.

You stated and I responded to, "no one should be making decisions taking away other peoples LIBERTIES". You comment claims you have a liberty to not take vaccines and not wear the mask. That is NOT true.

It is currently not against the law to not do those two, but there is NOTHING in the law or the constitution that says you have a liberty (or right) to those, and yes, people should be making decisions about those things for most citizens because most are not qualified to do it themselves.

[drducat]

For those who want to educate themselves not do research on court court rulings on vaccine mandates, here's an article on the history of public health and vaccine mandates. . .

Even Conservative Judges Haven’t Shot Down Vaccine Mandates - The American Prospect (https://prospect.org/justice/even-conservative-judges-havent-shot-down-vaccine-mandates/)

So for those who claim that the vaccine mandate is not legal, don't really have much legal ground for support in the last 100 years of court rulings. . .

but they can always hope. . . .

What is probably not legal is the way FDA has tricked everyone into thinking the Pfizer vaccine has been approved.....it has not and the BioTech vaccine is approved and still not available and won't be for over a year.

Also FDA has not followed their own approval policies which use strict guidelines for path to approval and those are years worth of trials. :police:

[lkagele]

There is no playing with the law, the Baker act is just one example of the government being able to enforce laws to protect the public from individuals, as the OP said in this thread. Children not allowed into school without vaccinations is another, there are literally hundreds on the books. The government CAN and DOES enact laws to protect the public.

Not opinion, just fact.

And obviously, I don't know you or your wife, so I was speaking in general terms.

Maybe you're correct. Maybe not. I just don't know enough about it to really know for sure.

What does concern me, however, is the overwhelming ban on dissenting opinions. It seems to me we're being forced to believe only one version of 'facts'. Big tech, social media and mainstream media are effectively banning legitimate debate.

Try bringing up the rise in infections in Israel even in vaccinated folks despite having the highest vaccination rate in the world? Nope. Twitter won't allow any discussion.

Let's talk about Viet Nam having the lowest infection rate in world until it started its mass vaccination program. Now infections in that country are going through the roof. Nope. Facebook will ban you.

What about the publisher that's posting articles on its web site about the vaccines not being nearly as effective as we've been led to believe. Or, recapping some studies showing the vaccines may be temporarily damaging your immune system. Nope. Google will de-platform you and take away your ad revenue.

Advocate for people that have recovered from the 'thank you very much China' COVID not needing the vaccine because their immune system is infinitely better than that of a vaccinated person and probably for a much longer period of time. Nope. The mainstream media labels you as a conspiracy theorist.

We're being told what 'facts' are true and being told the rest is disinformation. The law is being determined with dissenting debate being stifled. And maybe what may be more frightening, a lot of folks are OK with that.

[John Mayes]

There is no playing with the law, the Baker act is just one example of the government being able to enforce laws to protect the public from individuals, as the OP said in this thread. Children not allowed into school without vaccinations is another, there are literally hundreds on the books. The government CAN and DOES enact laws to protect the public.

Not opinion, just fact.

And obviously, I don't know you or your wife, so I was speaking in general terms.

It really depends on whether you’re talking about federal vs state mandates. The federal government does not mandate vaccines for all citizens but can for those that work for any federal branch. States can mandate vaccines for any state agency employees or for participation in any state or locally funded institutions such as public schools and universities. Private companies can mandate vaccines as a condition for employment. Of course there are exception clauses that have to part of any of federal, state or private company mandates. The Baker mandate is somewhat Florida specific although numerous other states have similar laws.

[Boomer]

i understand how you feel, but.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had covid and have been advised by their doctors not to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps i would change my view. unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.


If in the above quoted post, the word 'gov' were to be changed to the word 'Facebook' it would perfectly describe what we are seeing all around us.




Whoops, here is the second quote from mdlnb, that for some reason did not grab in green and I don't have time to fix it. . .

[quote=mdlnb;1996800]ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is no law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as i know martial law has not been declared. In america we still have the constitution and bill of rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and i may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but i respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, i do not demand others to live according to my desires. i don't care for red colored cars, but i do not feel they should be banned from the villages.

- - - -

mdlnb,

And, about those red cars. . .What if all the red car drivers joined together to form a big club where membership meant that members were to drive like idiots, not caring how many innocent pedestrians and stop sign obeying other drivers they were picking off?

Then, what would you think about those red cars?

. . .But, in seriousness, may I ask you how you would feel if you or someone you love or know could not get a heart operation or some other kind of much needed surgery because UNvaccinated Covid patients were hogging the beds in hospitals? It's happening. Hospitals are now concerned about collateral deaths.

Your opinion comes from the freedom and liberty angle, I know. I love freedom and liberty as much as any American. But what is making me really want to hurl is that those beloved words are being used against us by those with ulterior motives. Those who started all this mess of dysinformation and conspiracy theories are in it for the money, the love of chaos, and/or their wanting to undermine our democracy.

(Oh, well, I have probably just wasted too much valuable television time for watching Bosch with Mr. Boomer. . .But, before I go, I hope you will give me an answer about what you think about those collateral deaths that will result from the Unvaccinated refusing to take responsibility -- for their freedom.)

Boomer

[ejp52]

My body my choice right???

[Topspinmo]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.

I think there no cure for this and nobody knows if everyone was vaccinated it would disappear. I highly doubt it?

[lkagele]

[COLOR="Red"]
(Oh, well, I have probably just wasted too much valuable television time for watching Bosch with Mr. Boomer. . .But, before I go, I hope you will give me an answer about what you think about those collateral deaths that will result from the [B]Unvaccinated refusing to take responsibility -- for their freedom.)

Boomer

First, Bosch is a great series. If you like police and/or mystery, watch it.

Second, the vaccines are turning out not to be nearly as effective as we were led to believe. Especially with the Delta variant. Even vaccinated people are contracting the disease and spreading it to others. Those people are more likely to survive the disease but how do you differentiate responsibility for 'collateral deaths' due to victims contracting the disease from unvaccinated people vs. vaccinated people?

[GrumpyOldMan]

It really depends on whether you’re talking about federal vs state mandates. The federal government does not mandate vaccines for all citizens but can for those that work for any federal branch. States can mandate vaccines for any state agency employees or for participation in any state or locally funded institutions such as public schools and universities. Private companies can mandate vaccines as a condition for employment. Of course there are exception clauses that have to part of any of federal, state or private company mandates. The Baker mandate is somewhat Florida specific although numerous other states have similar laws.

The Baker act or something similar is active in about 2/3rds of the states. It is simply an example for those that keep saying the government can't mandate medical treatment or actions on people that don't want them. That is not true, it can, does, and will again.

Will it mandate vaccines or masks, I don't know, but it can.

And yes, in general, the federal government lays out guidelines and the states implement their localized versions of those. And yes, one of the methods of requiring states to follow its (the feds) "recommendations", is to make them mandatory to continue receiving federal funds.

So, we are in complete agreement.

[GrumpyOldMan]

My body my choice right???

No, your right to choose ends when it affects my health and safety. You can not drive 100mph through a neighborhood, because your right to drive ends when it endangers my life. You can not drive your car while intoxicated because it endangers my life.

So, your body your right? Nope, if you die, your body can not be buried in your back yard, it affects your neighbor's safety.

The number of examples is almost endless.

[GrumpyOldMan]

First, Bosch is a great series. If you like police and/or mystery, watch it.

Second, the vaccines are turning out not to be nearly as effective as we were led to believe. Especially with the Delta variant. Even vaccinated people are contracting the disease and spreading it to others. Those people are more likely to survive the disease but how do you differentiate responsibility for 'collateral deaths' due to victims contracting the disease from unvaccinated people vs. vaccinated people?

First, Bosch is a great series. We agree.

Second, the vaccines have NEVER been pitched as 100% effective. They help. They helped more against the original variant they were designed to be used against. Sadly, We, and the rest of the world, failed to take timely actions to stop the original variant from spreading far enough to begin mutating - I believe the common theme at the time was "it is no worse than the flu". ahem...

So, we now have a few variants to deal with. The current vaccines help reduce the impact of getting the delta variant, but do not stop it - as well as it does with the original. So, because we didn't take action when we could, we are now faced with a worse situation, that new variants are happening and we will need to find more ways to stop the spread. It's pretty simple, the more people that get infected, the more opportunities the virus has to mutate. Do nothing and it will mutate often and there is a good chance it will become more deadly.

The Spanish Flu lasted 4 years and killed a lot of people because they did not understand how it was transmitted and how to stop it. We do know how to stop the transmission, but, sadly we aren't. We would rather argue about liberties, and rights, and whether paper masks are useless, and how many feet should stand apart - inside or outside.

Anything at all to argue, rather than simply saying, "How can I help".

[Billy1]

You are not free, just for a small understanding, count all the stop signs, speed limit signs and traffic lights you see today.

[Eg_cruz]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.
Please stop calling people selfish. You have no clue why people make the decision they do with their life. Talk about selfish vaxx people running around spreading the virus because they think they are all covered.

Just be nice

[jswirs]

Common, jeez.

NO it is NOT my opinion, it is LAW. Your angry ex-wife can get a few doctors to sign off on your being a danger to yourself and you are committed and you stay there until a doctor says you are no longer a danger.

There are literally hundreds of years of precedence in the same manner. And our legal system is based on precedence.
And how, pray tell, would that ex wife get a few doctors to agree with her? I have to say, no, that is nearly impossible to occur. If it were that simple, anyone could get MD's to have others committed.

[PugMom]

What is probably not legal is the way FDA has tricked everyone into thinking the Pfizer vaccine has been approved.....it has not and the BioTech vaccine is approved and still not available and won't be for over a year.

Also FDA has not followed their own approval policies which use strict guidelines for path to approval and those are years worth of trials. :police:

:bigbow::ho: a quick bait & switch there i read about a few days ago re biotech, & note none of these companies would face consequences should something 'go wrong.' mandate or not, NO ONE will force me to take any kind of shot i am not comfortable with. protect yourselves from personal freedom

[donassaid]

2 things. These mandates were for deadly and crippling diseases, not for a virus that over 99% of people survive. Secondly, those vaccines had been researched and tested for years, not months, to determine the long term effects. The original Polio vaccine killed 10 children and caused Polio in 40,000 kids before being pulled off the market.

[PugMom]

No, your right to choose ends when it affects my health and safety. You can not drive 100mph through a neighborhood, because your right to drive ends when it endangers my life. You can not drive your car while intoxicated because it endangers my life.

So, your body your right? Nope, if you die, your body can not be buried in your back yard, it affects your neighbor's safety.

The number of examples is almost endless.

look, i really like you--you make good points, have witty replies to average comments in other threads, BUT, just please give me a sec here-- my husband was refused the shot because they do NOT know how this can affect the brain- there have been adverse reactions in SOME people with neurological conditions, ie:bell's palsy. it is up to YOU to keep YOURSELF healthy -- mask up & social distance YOURSELF if there is major concern. keep far away from those with no mask & live your dream here in the bubble. again-no hard feelings, & have a good one. i stand ready for incoming :boxing2:

[Petersweeney]

Another useless shouting match…. Go do some gardening pls

[MDLNB]

You stated and I responded to, "no one should be making decisions taking away other peoples LIBERTIES". You comment claims you have a liberty to not take vaccines and not wear the mask. That is NOT true.

It is currently not against the law to not do those two, but there is NOTHING in the law or the constitution that says you have a liberty (or right) to those, and yes, people should be making decisions about those things for most citizens because most are not qualified to do it themselves.


Once again, YOUR OPINION, not law. And you finally admitted that there is NO law mandating vaccinations and/or masking. Thank you.

[MDLNB]

If in the above quoted post, the word 'gov' were to be changed to the word 'Facebook' it would perfectly describe what we are seeing all around us.




Whoops, here is the second quote from mdlnb, that for some reason did not grab in green and I don't have time to fix it. . .

[quote=mdlnb;1996800]ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is no law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as i know martial law has not been declared. In america we still have the constitution and bill of rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and i may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but i respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, i do not demand others to live according to my desires. i don't care for red colored cars, but i do not feel they should be banned from the villages.

- - - -

mdlnb,

And, about those red cars. . .What if all the red car drivers joined together to form a big club where membership meant that members were to drive like idiots, not caring how many innocent pedestrians and stop sign obeying other drivers they were picking off?

Then, what would you think about those red cars?

. . .But, in seriousness, may I ask you how you would feel if you or someone you love or know could not get a heart operation or some other kind of much needed surgery because UNvaccinated Covid patients were hogging the beds in hospitals? It's happening. Hospitals are now concerned about collateral deaths.

Your opinion comes from the freedom and liberty angle, I know. I love freedom and liberty as much as any American. But what is making me really want to hurl is that those beloved words are being used against us by those with ulterior motives. Those who started all this mess of dysinformation and conspiracy theories are in it for the money, the love of chaos, and/or their wanting to undermine our democracy.

(Oh, well, I have probably just wasted too much valuable television time for watching Bosch with Mr. Boomer. . .But, before I go, I hope you will give me an answer about what you think about those collateral deaths that will result from the Unvaccinated refusing to take responsibility -- for their freedom.)

Boomer


Those deaths are unfortunate. Just because I do not agree with an action someone takes, does not mean that they must conform to my standards. Sorry, but people do die and sometimes it may be a result of someone else's inaction.

I do not understand why folks always resort to using traffic law as an argument about unrelated subjects. Traffic law pertains to those that volunteer to drive. No one MUST drive. That is a something that one wishes to do and by making that choice they also choose to abide by traffic laws. It has nothing to do with vaccinations.

[MDLNB]

No, your right to choose ends when it affects my health and safety. You can not drive 100mph through a neighborhood, because your right to drive ends when it endangers my life. You can not drive your car while intoxicated because it endangers my life.

So, your body your right? Nope, if you die, your body can not be buried in your back yard, it affects your neighbor's safety.

The number of examples is almost endless.


And none of your examples pertain to the subject matter.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Which is freedom? Mask mandates in schools to protect community health or a governor making mask mandates against the law even in privately own businesses without a logical, scientific reason??

andYour opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.

[Luggage]

There is a lot of government control concerning safety of the public. As examples school children must be vaccinated against many diseases before entering School has kindergarteners or otherwise. Cigarettes may not be smoked in many places by law. Seat belts used or you can get ticketed . Speed limits etc

[Luggage]

And freedom is often given up for the common good, has Spock said on Star Trek, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

[NoMo50]

This thread started out pondering the constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates. Predictably, it has made several detours along the way. It never ceases to amaze me just how many armchair lawyers live amongst us, and how willing they are to dispense legal advice and opinion. I get it...too many keyboard kommandoes simply can't help themselves, and must jump into the maelstrom.

As for what is, or is not constitutional, consider this: The final arbiter regarding the constitutionality of any issue is the U.S. Supreme Court. Nine men and women deemed to be the best and the brightest legal minds our country has to offer. Yet, how many "decisions" come down to a vote of 5-4, or even 6-3? So...even the elite constitutional minds in this country cannot agree on what is or is not constitutional. We're the issues so patently cut and dried, would not all votes come down 9-0? Or, is there always some other agenda in play? Food for thought.

[Marine1974]

So your saying courts don’t let you
present evidence that your sane and your ex wife is lying ?

[camaguey48]

Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.
An Israeli case study conducted by researchers at top Ivy League universities appeared to confirm that natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccines at preventing symptomatic transmission of the deadly coronavirus.

“This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant,” they wrote, according to medRxiv.

But according to Harvard epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff, the research debunked the arguments for vaccine mandates.

“Prior COVID disease (many working class) provides better immunity than vaccines (many professionals), so vaccine mandates are not only scientific nonsense, they are also discriminatory and unethical,” Kulldorff wrote Twitter, according to Red Voice Media.

His argument reinforced recent statistical evidence that the vaccine mandates, supported by the Biden administration and many blue-state governors, may be racist, since the majority of “vaccine hesitant” individuals in the US were black or Latino.

[Accidental1]

Maybe you're correct. Maybe not. I just don't know enough about it to really know for sure.

What does concern me, however, is the overwhelming ban on dissenting opinions. It seems to me we're being forced to believe only one version of 'facts'. Big tech, social media and mainstream media are effectively banning legitimate debate.

Try bringing up the rise in infections in Israel even in vaccinated folks despite having the highest vaccination rate in the world? Nope. Twitter won't allow any discussion.

Let's talk about Viet Nam having the lowest infection rate in world until it started its mass vaccination program. Now infections in that country are going through the roof. Nope. Facebook will ban you.

What about the publisher that's posting articles on its web site about the vaccines not being nearly as effective as we've been led to believe. Or, recapping some studies showing the vaccines may be temporarily damaging your immune system. Nope. Google will de-platform you and take away your ad revenue.

Advocate for people that have recovered from the 'thank you very much China' COVID not needing the vaccine because their immune system is infinitely better than that of a vaccinated person and probably for a much longer period of time. Nope. The mainstream media labels you as a conspiracy theorist.

We're being told what 'facts' are true and being told the rest is disinformation. The law is being determined with dissenting debate being stifled. And maybe what may be more frightening, a lot of folks are OK with that.

With regard to Vietnam.....based on what I read they were successful during the first wave of the pandemic thanks to strict isolation rules (that surely wouldn't go over well here). They are now suffering a huge spike in cases because only about 1.8% of the population is vaccinated and the Delta variant is running wild because it's more contagious. You made it sound like their spike in cases is due to the vaccine. Perhaps Facebook wouldn't allow debate on this specific subject because it's not debating the facts.

[Byte1]

And freedom is often given up for the common good, has Spock said on Star Trek, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

I think they call that socialism. Replace GOD with GOV and you get communism. Sorry, but REAL independent Americans will choose a few deaths over GOV control. And this has nothing to do with traffic laws, so please don't bother with that argument.

What Americans do voluntarily for their fellow man/woman is called charity. What the gov demands you do is called tyranny. Given a choice, Americans do the right thing and do not need a gov nanny demanding what the gov deems appropriate.

[dboyd29]

As the Germans said many years ago get on the train we are going to take you to a safe place, it’s for your own good and the safety of your neighbors.

[lkagele]

Which is freedom? Mask mandates in schools to protect community health or a governor making mask mandates against the law even in privately own businesses without a logical, scientific reason??

and

There is a logical scientific reason. Masks aren't nearly as effective as certain entities make you think they are. The governor of Oregon is making people wear masks indoors and out even if you've been vaccinated and/or had the virus. She doesn't know. She only wants to control.

Control starts small and gets larger. Australia passed a law prohibiting demonstrations a few years ago. No one objected. No big deal, right? Now its citizens are being beaten and arrested for protesting that government's draconian lockdown measures. They don't even want you to socialize with your neighbors.

With the government, it's not about logic or science. It's about power and control.

[waterflower]

You would love living in china. The rulers/controlers will tell you how to live your life. The big pharma industry has more lawsuits from injuries stemming from the toxic products. It is not about health, it is about profit. Research products that are approved by the FDA them proven to cause harm.Take responsibility for your health. Research who controls the health industry, who started it. There are cancer cures and we watch our love one die (500,000 yr). Most people who believe in the cdc & fda need to take the time to research if you truly care about humanity.

[lkagele]

With regard to Vietnam.....based on what I read they were successful during the first wave of the pandemic thanks to strict isolation rules (that surely wouldn't go over well here). They are now suffering a huge spike in cases because only about 1.8% of the population is vaccinated and the Delta variant is running wild because it's more contagious. You made it sound like their spike in cases is due to the vaccine. Perhaps Facebook wouldn't allow debate on this specific subject because it's not debating the facts.

You make my point. Here's what I read:

"As of early June, almost no one in Vietnam was vaccinated. Today, almost 20 percent of the country has received at least one dose. On August 23 they have implemented this so-called Directive 16 for two weeks which is like martial law at this point...

Areas in the red zones are not allowed to shop at supermarkets for two weeks. Supposedly their plan was to have the military do the shopping for you and they can deliver it at your doorstep."

I trust my source so I think I'm correct. So who is going determine the 'facts'? Do you really think Facebook is qualified to do so? With healthy debate, we'd share sources and probably come to a consensus which fact is correct. Plus, the current administration admits its working with FB to control misinformation. What could possibly go wrong?

This isn't about science and facts. It's about power and control.

[merrymini]

The masks are worthless, you have been played.
There is no statistical difference between children who do and do not wear masks in school.
My personal freedom is very important and comes with a great deal of responsibility.
The government is inept and I do not trust anything they say.
I refuse to be inoculated with an experimental drug.
I think stupid people should not be allowed in stores unless their IQ is tested.
If anyone thinks I am going to give up my freedoms, you are in for a fight.
Now where to get more ammo?

[Tbrazie]

Of course mandates are legal but this is another cheap shot article against conservatives most of whom are for vaccinations as am I. Why the hate?

[kenoc7]

Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.
There is a big difference between government control and public health /measures required for the common good. Your twisted version of freedom ends when it impacts others negatively. Getting your toga in a twist about wearing a mask is stupid and dangerous.

[KRMACK55]

There is no freedom the insipid control from within using fear lies and the constant drumbeat by CDC HHS and others.

[KRMACK55]

I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view. Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.
Youre seeing the nanny state rise up in alleged healthcare education and public discourse. Generations after us will comply without critical thinking

[oneclickplus]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.

False. The shot (not a vaccine) has no effect on transmission whatsoever. It only (possibly) mitigates symptoms to lower hospital visits & deaths. But, vaccinated people can (and do) spread this thing like everyone else. So, the "not just about you" is complete BS. If you think the shot will keep you alive, get it. But, unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others. I'm out and staying out. And, my lack of vaccination plays no role in whether you become exposed to the virus or not. Educate yourself.

Brighteon (https://www.brighteon.com/7785b6af-d2a0-4f15-a23e-9e56450ca344)

https://www.house.mi.gov/MHRPublic/CommitteeDoc.aspx?uri=2021_2022_session/committee/house/standing/workforce,_trades,_and_talent/meetings/2021-08-12-1/documents/testimony/Dr.%20Christina%20Parks,%20Ph.D..pdf

[Vermilion Villager]

Yup, think about the Baker Act. A person can be incarcerated if they are determined by doctors (medical experts) that they are a danger to themselves or others.

There are numerous other examples. So, we don't have mask and vaccine mandates because the politicians don't want to face the possible public backlash at the polls.

As it seems always for the past decade or so, politics and party are more important than public welfare.
I can relate to the Baker Act.
Several years ago the neighbor at the lake rented their cabin to a family. During this time, their 15yr old daughter was learning to drive. While she was backing out of the drive with her mother, she accidentally ran over their dog. It was a horrible scene. I heard the commotion, and ran over. The dog was not going to survive, and I told them to go get their father. I mistakenly reached to comfort the dog, and he bit my hand.

It wasn't a bad bite but it did draw blood. I went to the ER for stitches. The Dr. asked if the dog had its rabies shots. I said I did not know but it looked like a well cared for pet and I assumed it would. They told me in no uncertain terms to call them back ASAP because if it could not be confirmed the dog was vaccinated I would have to get the rabies shots.

I went home and the renters had packed up and left. I called the owner and explained I needed to get in touch with them.He gave me their number. They said they would verify with their vet, but seemed more concerned I would sue them.

Anyways, 2 days passed and The ER Dr. actually called me. I told him we were still checking. The next day the County Sheriff called! He told me if I couldn't verify the dog was vaccinated, and I didn't start my rabies shots, they would come and arrest me and bring me in for the shots. Turns out rabies can be transmitted human to human. The Sheriff quoted the Baker Act and I now posed a risk to others. WOW!!! Fortunately, we were able to locate the vet and confirm the dog was vaccinated. I was actually getting dressed to go to my doctor and start the rabies shots. I was very relieved.

[PJackpot]

Common, jeez.

NO it is NOT my opinion, it is LAW. Your angry ex-wife can get a few doctors to sign off on your being a danger to yourself and you are committed and you stay there until a doctor says you are no longer a danger.

There are literally hundreds of years of precedence in the same manner. And our legal system is based on precedence.

Fortunately for the rest of us who like the freedom to choose, politicians understand reality when it comes to ****ing off their constituents. Some times it seems, that's a good thing. Isn't it also funny how the "my body, my choice" crowd has no problem ripping a fetus to shreds, but wants to mandate a vaccine to "save lives".

[Vermilion Villager]

False. The shot (not a vaccine) has no effect on transmission whatsoever. It only (possibly) mitigates symptoms to lower hospital visits & deaths. But, vaccinated people can (and do) spread this thing like everyone else. So, the "not just about you" is complete BS. If you think the shot will keep you alive, get it. But, unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others. I'm out and staying out. And, my lack of vaccination plays no role in whether you become exposed to the virus or not. Educate yourself.

Brighteon (https://www.brighteon.com/7785b6af-d2a0-4f15-a23e-9e56450ca344)

https://www.house.mi.gov/MHRPublic/CommitteeDoc.aspx?uri=2021_2022_session/committee/house/standing/workforce,_trades,_and_talent/meetings/2021-08-12-1/documents/testimony/Dr.%20Christina%20Parks,%20Ph.D..pdf

So you are not vaccinated.
Answer me this....if you get sick with COVID because you don't believe in the science, will you go the the hospital and rely on the science for treatment?

[Skeety]

Tyoical control freak/narcissist. When it ****s up your heart and gives you violent headaches and a horrible rash, see how happy you are🤬

[Byte1]

Fortunately for the rest of us who like the freedom to choose, politicians understand reality when it comes to ****ing off their constituents. Some times it seems, that's a good thing. Isn't it also funny how the "my body, my choice" crowd has no problem ripping a fetus to shreds, but wants to mandate a vaccine to "save lives".

:bigbow::clap2::clap2::clap2:

[Byte1]

..//

[Byte1]

I can relate to the Baker Act.
Several years ago the neighbor at the lake rented their cabin to a family. During this time, their 15yr old daughter was learning to drive. While she was backing out of the drive with her mother, she accidentally ran over their dog. It was a horrible scene. I heard the commotion, and ran over. The dog was not going to survive, and I told them to go get their father. I mistakenly reached to comfort the dog, and he bit my hand.

It wasn't a bad bite but it did draw blood. I went to the ER for stitches. The Dr. asked if the dog had its rabies shots. I said I did not know but it looked like a well cared for pet and I assumed it would. They told me in no uncertain terms to call them back ASAP because if it could not be confirmed the dog was vaccinated I would have to get the rabies shots.

I went home and the renters had packed up and left. I called the owner and explained I needed to get in touch with them.He gave me their number. They said they would verify with their vet, but seemed more concerned I would sue them.

Anyways, 2 days passed and The ER Dr. actually called me. I told him we were still checking. The next day the County Sheriff called! He told me if I couldn't verify the dog was vaccinated, and I didn't start my rabies shots, they would come and arrest me and bring me in for the shots. Turns out rabies can be transmitted human to human. The Sheriff quoted the Baker Act and I now posed a risk to others. WOW!!! Fortunately, we were able to locate the vet and confirm the dog was vaccinated. I was actually getting dressed to go to my doctor and start the rabies shots. I was very relieved.

Nice story. It was entertaining.
Question:
Does the Baker Act (Law) require you to get a rabbies vaccination just in case you go camping, because there might be a rabid raccoon in the forest? Or would it require you to get the rabies shots if you had no intention of going into the woods and had the intention of staying in your home in the city, even though there might be a rabid rat or bat somewhere in the city? Even if there was no proof that you would be anywhere near such an animal?
Thought I might as well put in my facetious two cents since we are hearing vaccination and mask mandates equated to speed limit and stop sign laws.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Isn't it also funny how the "my body, my choice" crowd has no problem ripping a fetus to shreds, but wants to mandate a vaccine to "save lives".

Uh. I think you have this really all conflated. mostly those are two different sides.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Nice story. It was entertaining.
Question:
Does the Baker Act (Law) require you to get a rabbies vaccination just in case you go camping, because there might be a rabid raccoon in the forest? Or would it require you to get the rabies shots if you had no intention of going into the woods and had the intention of staying in your home in the city, even though there might be a rabid rat or bat somewhere in the city? Even if there was no proof that you would be anywhere near such an animal?
Thought I might as well put in my facetious two cents since we are hearing vaccination and mask mandates equated to speed limit and stop sign laws.

Not the Baker act, but the same idea, you can be required to get a vaccination if traveling to a country that is experiencing a surge. Most of the time an alternative can be arranged, like testing and isolation, but not always. And of course the military can and does require vaccinations for troops deploying overseas and other places that pose dangers from contagious diseases.

The point of the Baker act was not as an absolute, but as a example of a case where the government CAN and DOES step in and mandate healthcare for protection of society from members that would otherwise prove to be a risk to the rest of us.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Of course mandates are legal but this is another cheap shot article against conservatives most of whom are for vaccinations as am I. Why the hate?

Why the persecution complex? I have many conservative friends, and nothing said applies to them, they are vaccinated and follow all the other recommendations. The posts are addressed to anti crowd (mostly) continue to promote false narratives that put others lives at risk. And rather than hate, I would characterize it more as frustration.

You don't, so you aren't.

[BigHoss18]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.

I just want to know why women, and women alone, are allowed to murder their precious child under the LAW of “my body my choice!”, but the rest of us must succumb to unwanted demands of being vaccinated?!!!

If it’s true that our bodies are no longer our own to manage, then I see ABSOLUTEY NO DIFFERENCE, and feel strongly that Roe v Wade should be reversed!!!

[DaleDivine]

False. The shot (not a vaccine) has no effect on transmission whatsoever. It only (possibly) mitigates symptoms to lower hospital visits & deaths. But, vaccinated people can (and do) spread this thing like everyone else. So, the "not just about you" is complete BS. If you think the shot will keep you alive, get it. But, unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others. I'm out and staying out. And, my lack of vaccination plays no role in whether you become exposed to the virus or not. Educate yourself.

Brighteon (https://www.brighteon.com/7785b6af-d2a0-4f15-a23e-9e56450ca344)

https://www.house.mi.gov/MHRPublic/CommitteeDoc.aspx?uri=2021_2022_session/committee/house/standing/workforce,_trades,_and_talent/meetings/2021-08-12-1/documents/testimony/Dr.%20Christina%20Parks,%20Ph.D..pdf
Your body, your choice?
Not really, you're required to wear a seat belt aren't you?
No choice, wear it or get a ticket. Get vaccinated or get COVID.
You will pay the price eventually.
Please stay away from me.
:ohdear::ohdear::bigbow:

[Dilligas]

I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view. Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.
almost all mandates include exclusions for those whose health or body can not utilize the vaccine appropriately. This discussion is for the those who simply think they don't need, or want the vaccine for personal reasons. Most of us over 60 have received manditory vaccines for polio, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc.....all of which have reduced greatly or wiped out the disease.

[Byte1]

Why the persecution complex? I have many conservative friends, and nothing said applies to them, they are vaccinated and follow all the other recommendations. The posts are addressed to anti crowd (mostly) continue to promote false narratives that put others lives at risk. And rather than hate, I would characterize it more as frustration.

You don't, so you aren't.

Condescend much? " promote false narratives that put others lives at risk?" So, if they do not agree with you, the are wrong and threaten others' lives? As long as they "follow all the other recommendations" they are OK, right?

Some folks really need to back off with their superior attitude, often referred to as being "Elitists." I wonder if some are really attempting to convince or prefer to just elevate themselves to being higher and able to look down at those commoners.
Remember that it is often confusing and difficult to "follow other recommendations" when the so-called experts flip flop on what they recommend from day to day, week to week. Some folks have been stung enough to not blindly FOLLOW those with questionable records, especially those that believe in "leading from behind."
Remember, most folks have lived through this pandemic for over a year without the aid of the vaccination. Just saying, because I did get vaccinated and feel it is the right thing to do. But, not everyone feels the same way. Some are leery of and tired of our leadership. My neighbor finally got their vaccination and it was NOT from me threatening or calling him stupid or unpatriotic.

[Lancer]

Once again, YOUR OPINION, not law. And you finally admitted that there is NO law mandating vaccinations and/or masking. Thank you.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts case from 1905 in which the Court upheld the authority of state governments to enforce laws that require their citizens to be immunized.

[BigHoss18]

First, Bosch is a great series. We agree.

Second, the vaccines have NEVER been pitched as 100% effective. They help. They helped more against the original variant they were designed to be used against. Sadly, We, and the rest of the world, failed to take timely actions to stop the original variant from spreading far enough to begin mutating - I believe the common theme at the time was "it is no worse than the flu". ahem...

So, we now have a few variants to deal with. The current vaccines help reduce the impact of getting the delta variant, but do not stop it - as well as it does with the original. So, because we didn't take action when we could, we are now faced with a worse situation, that new variants are happening and we will need to find more ways to stop the spread. It's pretty simple, the more people that get infected, the more opportunities the virus has to mutate. Do nothing and it will mutate often and there is a good chance it will become more deadly.

The Spanish Flu lasted 4 years and killed a lot of people because they did not understand how it was transmitted and how to stop it. We do know how to stop the transmission, but, sadly we aren't. We would rather argue about liberties, and rights, and whether paper masks are useless, and how many feet should stand apart - inside or outside.

Anything at all to argue, rather than simply saying, "How can I help".

Benjamin Franklin quote: They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Abraham Lincoln quote: Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.

We can’t have it both ways! We either must succumb to our federal overlords and be sheeple forever, or we stand up against control and tyranny and defend our God-given rights.

Are there risks to the latter? Absolutely! Risks worth taking or before you know it we’ll be branded like the Jews or tagged with GPS devices because “the government SAID it’s for our safety and security.”

Demanding other do what YOU DEEM NECESSARY, is wrong on so many levels!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Condescend much? " promote false narratives that put others lives at risk?" So, if they do not agree with you, the are wrong and threaten others' lives? As long as they "follow all the other recommendations" they are OK, right?

Some folks really need to back off with their superior attitude, often referred to as being "Elitists." I wonder if some are really attempting to convince or prefer to just elevate themselves to being higher and able to look down at those commoners.
Remember that it is often confusing and difficult to "follow other recommendations" when the so-called experts flip flop on what they recommend from day to day, week to week. Some folks have been stung enough to not blindly FOLLOW those with questionable records, especially those that believe in "leading from behind."
Remember, most folks have lived through this pandemic for over a year without the aid of the vaccination. Just saying, because I did get vaccinated and feel it is the right thing to do. But, not everyone feels the same way. Some are leery of and tired of our leadership. My neighbor finally got their vaccination and it was NOT from me threatening or calling him stupid or unpatriotic.

I am not saying I am superior or have more knowledge, and if are feeling that maybe you should look inward for a reason.

I am saying, the people who spend their lives working in this field (not vets) have spoken and said what needs to be done. THEY are the ones that solve Chickenpox, they are the ones that stopped Polio, They are the ones I and others are supporting.

Unlike the deniers, that stomp their feet complain of being attacked and claim that they have a right to put everyone else at risk.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Benjamin Franklin quote: They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Abraham Lincoln quote: Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.

We can’t have it both ways! We either must succumb to our federal overlords and be sheeple forever, or we stand up against control and tyranny and defend our God-given rights.

Are there risks to the latter? Absolutely! Risks worth taking or before you know it we’ll be branded like the Jews or tagged with GPS devices because “the government SAID it’s for our safety and security.”

Demanding other do what YOU DEEM NECESSARY, is wrong on so many levels!


Did you get a chickenpox vaccine? Did you get a polio, you follow your doctors advice after a heart attack - seriously. the quotes are totally out of context.

[Byte1]

almost all mandates include exclusions for those whose health or body can not utilize the vaccine appropriately. This discussion is for the those who simply think they don't need, or want the vaccine for personal reasons. Most of us over 60 have received manditory vaccines for polio, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc.....all of which have reduced greatly or wiped out the disease.

Exactly! And many folks also believe that those are different. I have had a plethora of shots for a multitude of diseases that are just about extinct now, when I was in the military. And I have had the shingles vaccine and pneumonia shots but I never get the flu shot. Why? I have never had the flu and I have heard (maybe wrongly) that every year the flu shot is for the previous year(or something like that). Regardless, if I ever catch the flu and survive then I might get the flu shot after that. Silly? Maybe but it is my choice and not someone else's. It was my choice to get the Covid vaccination, even though I doubt I would ever suffer from the illness. I have children and grandchildren that have had covid, one even twice and all shrugged it off easier than a common cold. And I am in better condition than most of them. Did I do this for the "common good" of others? No, I did it primarily for my spouse. Does that make me bad? That is a matter of opinion, but no one would be advised to accuse me of not being patriotic unless your background has as much or more history.
According to what I have read, 85% of the Villages residents have been vaccinate. I believe (opinion) that if we had 100% vaccinations, there would still be covid in The Villages. I have no qualms about encouraging vaccinations or encouraging masking. I do not believe that masking will harm anyone, although I suspect the viability of 99% of the masks worn. I don't wear a mask since I was vaccinated, but that is my decision. If that bothers anyone, I suggest that they stay their distance. Do not walk up to me and demand that I wear a mask or I will demand that you remove yourself from my personal space.
Get it? I respect your decision and you respect mine. I can't be a threat to you IF you stay away from me. Do you reach over a fence that is posted "Beware of Dog" get bit and then demand that the owner muzzle the dog?

[Byte1]

I am not saying I am superior or have more knowledge, and if are feeling that maybe you should look inward for a reason.

I am saying, the people who spend their lives working in this field (not vets) have spoken and said what needs to be done. THEY are the ones that solve Chickenpox, they are the ones that stopped Polio, They are the ones I and others are supporting.

Unlike the deniers, that stomp their feet complain of being attacked and claim that they have a right to put everyone else at risk.

Thank you for proving my point.:ho:

[newgirl]

Do you mean, if people you care about started dying....enough have died ( and have people that love them). How many have to die for you to say ok ?

[lkagele]

I am not saying I am superior or have more knowledge, and if are feeling that maybe you should look inward for a reason.

I am saying, the people who spend their lives working in this field (not vets) have spoken and said what needs to be done. THEY are the ones that solve Chickenpox, they are the ones that stopped Polio, They are the ones I and others are supporting.

Unlike the deniers, that stomp their feet complain of being attacked and claim that they have a right to put everyone else at risk.

No disrespect intended but you are coming across that it's your way or the highway. Even top scientist within the governmental system have disagreements on how the vaccine thing is being handled. Here's some breaking news that documents disagreements exist within the system.

BREAKING: In a major blow to vaccine efforts, senior FDA leaders stepping down

"A former senior FDA leader told Endpoints that they’re departing because they’re frustrated that CDC and their ACIP committee are involved in decisions that they think should be up to the FDA. The former FDAer also said he’s heard they’re upset with CBER director Peter Marks for not insisting that those decisions should be kept inside FDA. What finally did it for them was the White House getting ahead of FDA on booster shots."

I'm going to continue looking at all sources and not rely on one that someone else says I must.

[Bob.Betty]

so you have been drinking the koolaid too

[flflowers]

I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view.
[ Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.[/SIZE][/I][/SIZE]

Sounds like sheeple to me!

[drducat]

False. The shot (not a vaccine) has no effect on transmission whatsoever. It only (possibly) mitigates symptoms to lower hospital visits & deaths. But, vaccinated people can (and do) spread this thing like everyone else. So, the "not just about you" is complete BS. If you think the shot will keep you alive, get it. But, unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others. I'm out and staying out. And, my lack of vaccination plays no role in whether you become exposed to the virus or not. Educate yourself.

Brighteon (https://www.brighteon.com/7785b6af-d2a0-4f15-a23e-9e56450ca344)

https://www.house.mi.gov/MHRPublic/CommitteeDoc.aspx?uri=2021_2022_session/committee/house/standing/workforce,_trades,_and_talent/meetings/2021-08-12-1/documents/testimony/Dr.%20Christina%20Parks,%20Ph.D..pdf

:a040::a040::a040::a040::a040:


Yes .....someone that finally gets it....! :pepper2::pepper2::pepper2:

[Jack65]

And freedom is often given up for the common good, has Spock said on Star Trek, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

Was that Spock or Stalin?

[MDLNB]

Your body, your choice?
Not really, you're required to wear a seat belt aren't you?
No choice, wear it or get a ticket. Get vaccinated or get COVID.
You will pay the price eventually.
Please stay away from me.
:ohdear::ohdear::bigbow:
Don't you have faith or confidence in your own vaccination? Why would you care if someone you do not know gets vaccinated or not, if you are safe from them?

[wildjac]

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.

Opinions are like bowel movements............everybody has them!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Don't you have faith or confidence in your own vaccination? Why would you care if someone you do not know gets vaccinated or not, if you are safe from them?


Baiting again? NO ONE has said that the vaccination is 100% affective in preventing break through infections. And the more people that are not vaccinated the more likely new variants will spawn which may completely ignore the protection provided by the vaccination.

It has been said over and over WHY it is important for everyone that can be vaccinated to be vaccinated. But, that advice by the people that are actually experts, not self anointed experts, has been repeated ad nauseam, and yet this same question keeps getting posted. It becomes hard to take you seriously.

[asianthree]

Currently I am in a area that is now 32% vaccinated. So far no mandate for employees. Only have 1 week before we move on to much need time off, then take a look at retirement again, or travel again, with full knowledge if vaccine is required or not. Management Concern is there are so many open positions if employees don’t like mandate, one can go elsewhere and leave the facility with even less employees. Some facilities that are putting mandate in effect, also have ability to opt out with weekly testing.

[MDLNB]

Baiting again? NO ONE has said that the vaccination is 100% affective in preventing break through infections. And the more people that are not vaccinated the more likely new variants will spawn which may completely ignore the protection provided by the vaccination.

It has been said over and over WHY it is important for everyone that can be vaccinated to be vaccinated. But, that advice by the people that are actually experts, not self anointed experts, has been repeated ad nauseam, and yet this same question keeps getting posted. It becomes hard to take you seriously.


Sorry, I guess you did not get it. I said none of what you indicate. I responded to the poster that told the nonvaxxed person to stay away from them. I asked a simple question and you interjected with a diatribe of innuendoes.

Personally, just in case it interests you (and it seems to) I am vaccinated and have no problem with anyone vaxxed or nonvaxxed that comes near me, with or without a mask. I do not fear shadows or evil spirits or anything else that instills imaginative panic or hysteria, so I was just curious.

But thanks for your interest.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Sorry, I guess you did not get it. I said none of what you indicate. I responded to the poster that told the nonvaxxed person to stay away from them. I asked a simple question and you interjected with a diatribe of innuendoes.

Personally, just in case it interests you (and it seems to) I am vaccinated and have no problem with anyone vaxxed or nonvaxxed that comes near me, with or without a mask. I do not fear shadows or evil spirits or anything else that instills imaginative panic or hysteria, so I was just curious.

But thanks for your interest.

I am glad you are vaccinated, thank you. I am also glad you are not frightened by shadows or evil. That is a good thing.

[jimjamuser]

First, Bosch is a great series. If you like police and/or mystery, watch it.

Second, the vaccines are turning out not to be nearly as effective as we were led to believe. Especially with the Delta variant. Even vaccinated people are contracting the disease and spreading it to others. Those people are more likely to survive the disease but how do you differentiate responsibility for 'collateral deaths' due to victims contracting the disease from unvaccinated people vs. vaccinated people?
It is easy to determine "responsibility". 90% plus of those hospitalized in Florida and other states are the UNvaccinated. I am sure that they WISH that they had taken the "responsibility" for themselves and others by getting VACCINATED! And if someone liked Bosch, they might try "Absentia".

[Babubhat]

I guess I have been wasting my time reading Harvard Law review for constitutional scholarship when i could just read this thread

[jimjamuser]

I think they call that socialism. Replace GOD with GOV and you get communism. Sorry, but REAL independent Americans will choose a few deaths over GOV control. And this has nothing to do with traffic laws, so please don't bother with that argument.

What Americans do voluntarily for their fellow man/woman is called charity. What the gov demands you do is called tyranny. Given a choice, Americans do the right thing and do not need a gov nanny demanding what the gov deems appropriate.
Americans DID have the choice to do the RIGHT thing in April and May of this year. Then, the frequency of weekly vaccinations slowed down, and now nationwide ONLY 53% are fully vaccinated. They did NOT do the right thing! Inaction, like ignoring the CV delta variant is like poking a GRIZZLE bear - that may not go Well!
It seems strange to glamorize American "liberties" while not showing empathy to actual Americans that have had their lives ruined by a disease that could have been controlled by July 2020.

[stanley]

Americans DID have the choice to do the RIGHT thing in April and May of this year. Then, the frequency of weekly vaccinations slowed down, and now nationwide ONLY 53% are fully vaccinated. They did NOT do the right thing! Inaction, like ignoring the CV delta variant is like poking a GRIZZLE bear - that may not go Well!
It seems strange to glamorize American "liberties" while not showing empathy to actual Americans that have had their lives ruined by a disease that could have been controlled by July 2020.

I disagree with the contents of this post

[jimjamuser]

You would love living in china. The rulers/controlers will tell you how to live your life. The big pharma industry has more lawsuits from injuries stemming from the toxic products. It is not about health, it is about profit. Research products that are approved by the FDA them proven to cause harm.Take responsibility for your health. Research who controls the health industry, who started it. There are cancer cures and we watch our love one die (500,000 yr). Most people who believe in the cdc & fda need to take the time to research if you truly care about humanity.
"There are cancer cures" .........really. That seems like a stretch of belief.

[drducat]

Americans DID have the choice to do the RIGHT thing in April and May of this year. Then, the frequency of weekly vaccinations slowed down, and now nationwide ONLY 53% are fully vaccinated. They did NOT do the right thing! Inaction, like ignoring the CV delta variant is like poking a GRIZZLE bear - that may not go Well!
It seems strange to glamorize American "liberties" while not showing empathy to actual Americans that have had their lives ruined by a disease that could have been controlled by July 2020.

The right thing??? HMMM......a real vaccine would be nice..........

Funny how all the vaccine makers came up with the same gene therapy mRna....fat chance.....no such thing as coincidence's, sorry.....

[Garywt]

Please stop calling people selfish. You have no clue why people make the decision they do with their life. Talk about selfish vaxx people running around spreading the virus because they think they are all covered.

Just be nice

From day one it is the same people who did not wear masks, would not keep their distance, continued to have parties etc. Because they do not think this is real they refuse to do the right thing so they are selfish. Maybe they are afraid but the do not care about others.

[Garywt]

I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view. Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.

I agree that a small percentage of people might not be able to get the shots. I also think there are many that do not listen to their doctors. My life is in my doctors hands so I do everything I am told.

[jimjamuser]

The right thing??? HMMM......a real vaccine would be nice..........

Funny how all the vaccine makers came up with the same gene therapy mRna....fat chance.....no such thing as coincidence's, sorry.....
By now many people know that the J & J vaccine is made on a different and older system of vaccine development than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Is anyone else noticing a particularly scary turn this thread is taking compared to all the others. I fear we are heading into another civil war, and this one will not have clearly defined borders.

[John Mayes]

Is anyone else noticing a particularly scary turn this thread is taking compared to all the others. I fear we are heading into another civil war, and this one will not have clearly defined borders.

Then stop fostering the divide. People from both sides of the issue feel differently and trying to convince someone that has strong opinions on either side of the debate is a waste of oxygen and precious time that most of us have left.

[stanley]

Is anyone else noticing a particularly scary turn this thread is taking compared to all the others. I fear we are heading into another civil war, and this one will not have clearly defined borders.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! If you like what's happening in Australia, you will love what's coming here

[lkagele]

Is anyone else noticing a particularly scary turn this thread is taking compared to all the others. I fear we are heading into another civil war, and this one will not have clearly defined borders.

Well, if you consider anyone disagreeing with you as "scary', then you're correct. Me, I view it as healthy debate.

[lkagele]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! If you like what's happening in Australia, you will love what's coming here

I'm starting to believe Grumpy would endorse what's happening in Australia. Their government tells them what to think and destroys any dissent.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Well, if you consider anyone disagreeing with you as "scary', then you're correct. Me, I view it as healthy debate.

No, I don't find people disagreeing with me to be scary at all. I believe disagreement is healthy and good for the country.,

I see people publicly discussing (or insinuating) overthrowing our government scary, DHS says homegrown terrorism is the biggest threat to our country today.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I'm starting to believe Grumpy would endorse what's happening in Australia. Their government tells them what to think and destroys any dissent.

Then. you don't know me very well, and if you are joking, I don't find it even a little bit funny.

No, I would never endorse that. I volunteered to fight for our country during VN in the Marine Corp. I love our country and our democracy. Did you? Do You? Please be careful calling my patriotism into question, it is a subject I take very seriously.

[drducat]

By now many people know that the J & J vaccine is made on a different and older system of vaccine development than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

The Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses double-stranded DNA.

[golfing eagles]

False. The shot (not a vaccine) has no effect on transmission whatsoever. It only (possibly) mitigates symptoms to lower hospital visits & deaths. But, vaccinated people can (and do) spread this thing like everyone else. So, the "not just about you" is complete BS. If you think the shot will keep you alive, get it. But, unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others. I'm out and staying out. And, my lack of vaccination plays no role in whether you become exposed to the virus or not. Educate yourself.

Brighteon (https://www.brighteon.com/7785b6af-d2a0-4f15-a23e-9e56450ca344)

https://www.house.mi.gov/MHRPublic/CommitteeDoc.aspx?uri=2021_2022_session/committee/house/standing/workforce,_trades,_and_talent/meetings/2021-08-12-1/documents/testimony/Dr.%20Christina%20Parks,%20Ph.D..pdf

Getting really tired of dealing with total misinformation. Let's do it again, from Miriam-Webster dictionary:

vac·​cine | \ vak-ˈsēn , ˈvak-ˌsēn \
plural vaccines
Definition of vaccine
1: a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease: such as
a: an antigenic preparation of a typically inactivated or attenuated (see ATTENUATED sense 2) pathogenic agent (such as a bacterium or virus) or one of its components or products (such as a protein or toxin)
a trivalent influenza vaccine
oral polio vaccine
Many vaccines are made from the virus itself, either weakened or killed, which will induce antibodies to bind and kill a live virus. Measles vaccines are just that, weakened (or attenuated) measles viruses.
— Ann Finkbeiner et al.
… a tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine might be recommended for wound management in a pregnant woman if [greater than or equal to] 5 years have elapsed … .
— Mark Sawyer et al.
In addition the subunit used in a vaccine must be carefully chosen, because not all components of a pathogen represent beneficial immunological targets.
— Thomas J. Matthews and Dani P. Bolognesi
b: a preparation of genetic material (such as a strand of synthesized messenger RNA) that is used by the cells of the body to produce an antigenic substance (such as a fragment of virus spike protein)
… Moderna's coronavirus vaccine … works by injecting a small piece of mRNA from the coronavirus that codes for the virus' spike protein. … mRNA vaccine spurs the body to produce the spike protein internally. That, in turn, triggers an immune response.
— Susie Neilson et al.
The revolutionary messenger RNA vaccines that are now available have been over a decade in development. … Messenger RNA enters the cell cytoplasm and produces protein from the spike of the Covid-19 virus.
— Thomas F. Cozza
Viral vector vaccines, another recent type of vaccine, are similar to DNA and RNA vaccines, but the virus's genetic information is housed in an attenuated virus (unrelated to the disease-causing virus) that helps to promote host cell fusion and entry.

So, once again for those with comprehension issues, it is a VACCINE, NOT A SHOT. If you want a "shot", try the bar at City Fire (Of course you may go home and find you require additional "shots"):1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

And next----people post garbage that implies that the vaccinated carry COVID just as much as the unvaccinated. FALSE. The SMALL percentage of vaccinated that do carry the virus have similar viral loads and transmission rates as the unvaccinated---BUT---they are a SMALL percentage----for the original virus it was 0.07%. The CDC has not tracked delta variant breakthrough but it is still relatively low.

And finally, the statement that "unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others." is frankly idiotic and deserves no further discussion

[Byte1]

No, I don't find people disagreeing with me to be scary at all. I believe disagreement is healthy and good for the country.,

I see people publicly discussing (or insinuating) overthrowing our government scary, DHS says homegrown terrorism is the biggest threat to our country today.

And you believe that? Wow!

[drducat]

Getting really tired of dealing with total misinformation. Let's do it again, from Miriam-Webster dictionary:

vac·​cine | \ vak-ˈsēn , ˈvak-ˌsēn \
plural vaccines
Definition of vaccine
1: a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease: such as
a: an antigenic preparation of a typically inactivated or attenuated (see ATTENUATED sense 2) pathogenic agent (such as a bacterium or virus) or one of its components or products (such as a protein or toxin)
a trivalent influenza vaccine
oral polio vaccine
Many vaccines are made from the virus itself, either weakened or killed, which will induce antibodies to bind and kill a live virus. Measles vaccines are just that, weakened (or attenuated) measles viruses.
— Ann Finkbeiner et al.
… a tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine might be recommended for wound management in a pregnant woman if [greater than or equal to] 5 years have elapsed … .
— Mark Sawyer et al.
In addition the subunit used in a vaccine must be carefully chosen, because not all components of a pathogen represent beneficial immunological targets.
— Thomas J. Matthews and Dani P. Bolognesi
b: a preparation of genetic material (such as a strand of synthesized messenger RNA) that is used by the cells of the body to produce an antigenic substance (such as a fragment of virus spike protein)
… Moderna's coronavirus vaccine … works by injecting a small piece of mRNA from the coronavirus that codes for the virus' spike protein. … mRNA vaccine spurs the body to produce the spike protein internally. That, in turn, triggers an immune response.
— Susie Neilson et al.
The revolutionary messenger RNA vaccines that are now available have been over a decade in development. … Messenger RNA enters the cell cytoplasm and produces protein from the spike of the Covid-19 virus.
— Thomas F. Cozza
Viral vector vaccines, another recent type of vaccine, are similar to DNA and RNA vaccines, but the virus's genetic information is housed in an attenuated virus (unrelated to the disease-causing virus) that helps to promote host cell fusion and entry.

So, once again for those with comprehension issues, it is a VACCINE, NOT A SHOT. If you want a "shot", try the bar at City Fire (Of course you may go home and find you require additional "shots"):1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

And next----people post garbage that implies that the vaccinated carry COVID just as much as the unvaccinated. FALSE. The SMALL percentage of vaccinated that do carry the virus have similar viral loads and transmission rates as the unvaccinated---BUT---they are a SMALL percentage----for the original virus it was 0.07%. The CDC has not tracked delta variant breakthrough but it is still relatively low.

And finally, the statement that "unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others." is frankly idiotic and deserves no further discussion

You know better.....This vaccine is only offers partial protection and the vaccinated still carry a viral load that can infect others....this has been proven over and over again.....look to Israel or the UK to find the correct details. Our own CDC is corrupted with FDA, The WHO ......follow the money.....I know you know.

[golfing eagles]

You know better.....This vaccine is only offers partial protection and the vaccinated still carry a viral load that can infect others....this has been proven over and over again.....look to Israel or the UK to find the correct details. Our own CDC is corrupted with FDA, The WHO ......follow the money.....I know you know.

That needs to be re-worded to----A SMALL percentage of the vaccinated still carry a viral load that can infect others.

As far as the conspiracy theory regarding the CDC, FDA, and WHO, well........

[Bay Kid]

Who do you trust?

[golfing eagles]

No vaccine no vote.

I don't think our constitution and its amendments would allow us to go there. If it did, I would advocate "not a net taxpayer, no vote", first.

[Boomer]

Getting really tired of dealing with total misinformation. Let's do it again, from Miriam-Webster dictionary:

vac·​cine | \ vak-ˈsēn , ˈvak-ˌsēn \
plural vaccines
Definition of vaccine
1: a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease: such as
a: an antigenic preparation of a typically inactivated or attenuated (see ATTENUATED sense 2) pathogenic agent (such as a bacterium or virus) or one of its components or products (such as a protein or toxin)
a trivalent influenza vaccine
oral polio vaccine
Many vaccines are made from the virus itself, either weakened or killed, which will induce antibodies to bind and kill a live virus. Measles vaccines are just that, weakened (or attenuated) measles viruses.
— Ann Finkbeiner et al.
… a tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine might be recommended for wound management in a pregnant woman if [greater than or equal to] 5 years have elapsed … .
— Mark Sawyer et al.
In addition the subunit used in a vaccine must be carefully chosen, because not all components of a pathogen represent beneficial immunological targets.
— Thomas J. Matthews and Dani P. Bolognesi
b: a preparation of genetic material (such as a strand of synthesized messenger RNA) that is used by the cells of the body to produce an antigenic substance (such as a fragment of virus spike protein)
… Moderna's coronavirus vaccine … works by injecting a small piece of mRNA from the coronavirus that codes for the virus' spike protein. … mRNA vaccine spurs the body to produce the spike protein internally. That, in turn, triggers an immune response.
— Susie Neilson et al.
The revolutionary messenger RNA vaccines that are now available have been over a decade in development. … Messenger RNA enters the cell cytoplasm and produces protein from the spike of the Covid-19 virus.
— Thomas F. Cozza
Viral vector vaccines, another recent type of vaccine, are similar to DNA and RNA vaccines, but the virus's genetic information is housed in an attenuated virus (unrelated to the disease-causing virus) that helps to promote host cell fusion and entry.

So, once again for those with comprehension issues, it is a VACCINE, NOT A SHOT. If you want a "shot", try the bar at City Fire (Of course you may go home and find you require additional "shots"):1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[B]]And next----people post garbage that implies that the vaccinated carry COVID just as much as the unvaccinated. FALSE. The SMALL percentage of vaccinated that do carry the virus have similar viral loads and transmission rates as the unvaccinated---BUT---they are a SMALL percentage----for the original virus it was 0.07%. The CDC has not tracked delta variant breakthrough but it is still relatively low.

And finally, the statement that "unvaccinated people pose no additional risk to others." is frankly idiotic and deserves no further discussion[/B[/SIZE]]


Thank you, golfing eagles, MD,

A couple of days ago, I tried to make the point about the collateral deaths that result from hospitals crammed with UNvaccinated Covid patients hogging beds, causing heart surgeries, and other needed surgeries, to be postponed because there is not enough room or staff to take care of them.

But (sigh) all I got back was that routine about the vaccinated carrying the virus -- and other diversionary tactics that are predictable. I must assume that they cannot imagine that they or someone they love could be among those shut out of care because our hospitals are being put under this completely unnecessary stress caused by the UNvaccinated.

In regard to the idea of a federal mask mandate -- I think that would be stupid because it would not work and would only add fuel to this fire. It is not going to happen.

I find the prohibiting of mask requirements handed down from state governments to be horrifying. It is damned creepy to use kids as pawns.

I do like knowing that private businesses are starting to play hardball. Delta is raising insurance premiums on their UNvaccinated employees by $200 a month.

Some of the hospitals in my hometown are requiring vaccinations. Some are not -- yet. I cannot imagine that all those nurses who are threatening to quit can be employed elsewhere -- unless they want to travel or move, and it would be stupid to uproot their lives for some "cause." Maybe peer-group pressure will work on them as many are signing up to get the vaccine now.

I heard yesterday that my hometown's main theater is going to require proof of vaccination. I have not read that for myself yet, but I sure hope it is true. I think that requirement will be good for theater. The arts have been suffering for a year and a half.

So anyway, leave the feds out of it, but let businesses make their own decisions about requiring the vaccine.

And tighten up the unemployment checks so that those who lose their jobs over refusing vaccination (unless they have a medical reason) are not able to get unemployment on some kind of technicality. They need not think they will have the luxury of lardassing around on my dime.

Oh well, enough of this. I did not intend to get started this morning.

Boomer

[stanley]

Please be careful calling my patriotism into question, it is a subject I take very seriously.

There are plenty of "people" here on your side of the fence that questions the patriotism of those the opposite side of that same fence. Feels good, huh? You and others need to be careful.

[golfing eagles]

Thank you, golfing eagles, MD,

A couple of days ago, I tried to make the point about the collateral deaths that result from hospitals crammed with UNvaccinated Covid patients hogging beds, causing heart surgeries, and other needed surgeries, to be postponed because there is not enough room or staff to take care of them.

But (sigh) all I got back was that routine about the vaccinated carrying the virus -- and other diversionary tactics that are predictable. I must assume that they cannot imagine that they or someone they love could be among those shut out of care because our hospitals are being put under this completely unnecessary stress caused by the UNvaccinated.

In regard to the idea of a federal mask mandate -- I think that would be stupid because it would not work and would only add fuel to this fire. It is not going to happen.

I find the prohibiting of mask requirements handed down from state governments to be horrifying. It is damned creepy to use kids as pawns.

I do like knowing that private businesses are starting to play hardball. Delta is raising insurance premiums on their UNvaccinated employees by $200 a month.

Some of the hospitals in my hometown are requiring vaccinations. Some are not -- yet. I cannot imagine that all those nurses who are threatening to quit can be employed elsewhere -- unless they want to travel or move, and it would be stupid to uproot their lives for some "cause." Maybe peer-group pressure will work on them as many are signing up to get the vaccine now.

I heard yesterday that my hometown's main theater is going to require proof of vaccination. I have not read that for myself yet, but I sure hope it is true. I think that requirement will be good for theater. The arts have been suffering for a year and a half.

So anyway, leave the feds out of it, but let businesses make their own decisions about requiring the vaccine.

And tighten up the unemployment checks so that those who lose their jobs over refusing vaccination (unless they have a medical reason) are not able to get unemployment on some kind of technicality. They need not think they will have the luxury of lardassing around on my dime.

Oh well, enough of this. I did not intend to get started this morning.

Boomer

Exactly. There seems to be a handful of posters, probably anti-vaxxers and probably none too bright, that seem to think that by reposting "the vaccinated can spread the disease just as much as the unvaccinated", they will make some point or another, whatever they think that is. It is a lame attempt to equate two groups that are in no way equivalent.

In summary:

THE VACCINATED AND UNVACCINATED ARE NOT THE SAME.

They have vastly different rates of contracting COVID, spreading COVID, getting hospitalized and dying. The sad part is that this should be a very easy, clear cut choice, but for some they are having trouble processing this information. Some may be following a political agenda, some may be afraid of the shot more than the disease, and some are just oblivious to what is happening. Like Judge Judy says---"You can't fix stupid"

[jimjamuser]

You ain't seen nothing yet.
The purpose of a forum is to contribute IDEAS to the local community - the purpose is NOT to just STALK those that ARE TRYING to make a contribution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stanley]

The purpose of a forum is to contribute IDEAS to the local community - the purpose is NOT to just STALK those that ARE TRYING to make a contribution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

:ohdear::ohdear:
I made a contribution and commented on your continual diatribe. Look back and take "you ain't seen nothing yet" in the context it was given to your post.

People are practically getting violent over school board officials that want to mandate masks to simply protect the health of children. Elected Washington House Members are, in effect, calling for a violent revolution over a SUPPOSED lie involving a PAST election. It is ridiculous, but exceedingly dangerous at the same time.

You still ain't seen nothing yet

[GrumpyOldMan]

There are plenty of "people" here on your side of the fence that questions the patriotism of those the opposite side of that same fence. Feels good, huh? You and others need to be careful.
"
Do not group me with anyone. You do not know me. I have NEVER challenged anyone's patriotism on this or any other site. I stand by my statements.

[jimjamuser]

From day one it is the same people who did not wear masks, would not keep their distance, continued to have parties etc. Because they do not think this is real they refuse to do the right thing so they are selfish. Maybe they are afraid but the do not care about others.
Agreed and what is it about other countries that are UNIFIED in their acceptance of government suggestions? Why is the US so OBSTINATE to the point of SELF-DESTRUCTION? Could it be all the John Wayne-type movies about the WILD (and glamorized to be highly INDIVIDUALIZED) WEST? Did those Western-type of movies settle into the American psychic like soft PROPAGANDA? Do many male adults have their CAP-GUN-DAYS still imprinted on their minds. Is that why they are SO resistant to LEGAL mandates.

I wish a forensic psychiatrist could link up with a forensic detective and write a book that would answer the question of why some US citizens are RESISTANT to government mandates. Both of the countries of Canada and Australia are less RESISTANT and that can be checked out statistically. The US has about 45 CV deaths per 100,000 people. Canada and Australia have about TWO, yes 2. And yes, they have experienced a surge, but that surge was from almost NOTHING to very LITTLE!

[GrumpyOldMan]

You and others need to be careful.

I seriously hope that was not a threat. It certainly sounds like a not so veiled threat.

[jimjamuser]

Is anyone else noticing a particularly scary turn this thread is taking compared to all the others. I fear we are heading into another civil war, and this one will not have clearly defined borders.
I wish that I didn't agree with you on this post - but I DO! I hope that I can get to Canada because I have ZERO desire to take part in America destroying America - because what takes its place will be an ABOMINATION to HUMANITY!

[stanley]

My post;
There are plenty of "people" here on your side of the fence that questions the patriotism of those the opposite side of that same fence. Feels good, huh? You and others need to be careful.

Your post;
I seriously hope that was not a threat. It certainly sounds like a not so veiled threat.

No it wasn't a threat just like this wasn't ;

Please be careful calling my patriotism into question, it is a subject I take very seriously.

And as far as this comment goes ;

"
Do not group me with anyone. You do not know me. I have NEVER challenged anyone's patriotism on this or any other site. I stand by my statements.

I refer you to this ;

. I love our country and our democracy. Did you? Do You? Please be careful calling my patriotism into question, it is a subject I take very seriously.

Sounds to me like you're questioning someone's patriotism.

[jimjamuser]

Then stop fostering the divide. People from both sides of the issue feel differently and trying to convince someone that has strong opinions on either side of the debate is a waste of oxygen and precious time that most of us have left.
Debating an important issue is NEVER a waste of time. On a national Historic scale, I offer as an example the Abe Lincoln and Douglas ( or whomever) debates. Patrick Henry made an important quote in History to sway people toward his side of an issue. Debating is studied and promoted in Universities throughout the US and the world. NOT taking out an argument leads to violence as a way to resolve conflicts. That is what the profession of Marriage Counselor is ALL about. Conclusion......debate is as American as APPLE PIE!

[stanley]

Patrick Henry made an important quote in History to sway people toward his side of an issue.

Ahh yes...Patrick Henry..........Love this part of that speech:

“Gentlemen may cry, ‘Peace, Peace,’ but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? ... Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

[SkBlogW]

Exactly. There seems to be a handful of posters, probably anti-vaxxers and probably none too bright, that seem to think that by reposting "the vaccinated can spread the disease just as much as the unvaccinated", they will make some point or another, whatever they think that is. It is a lame attempt to equate two groups that are in no way equivalent.

In summary:

THE VACCINATED AND UNVACCINATED ARE NOT THE SAME.

They have vastly different rates of contracting COVID, spreading COVID, getting hospitalized and dying. The sad part is that this should be a very easy, clear cut choice, but for some they are having trouble processing this information. Some may be following a political agenda, some may be afraid of the shot more than the disease, and some are just oblivious to what is happening. Like Judge Judy says---"You can't fix stupid"

Like Judge Judy says "you can't use outdated statistics"

Vastly different rates of contracting and spreading? Not since Delta arrived.

Israel has among the world’s highest levels of vaccination for COVID-19, with 78% of those 12 and older fully vaccinated, the vast majority with the Pfizer vaccine. Yet the country is now logging one of the world’s highest infection rates, with nearly 650 new cases daily per million people. More than half are in fully vaccinated people, underscoring the extraordinary transmissibility of the Delta variant and stoking concerns that the benefits of vaccination ebb over time.

AAAS (https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta)

Fully Vaccinated People Account for 1 in 4 COVID Cases Here, New CDC Report Says

Fully Vaccinated People Account for 1 in 4 COVID Cases Here, New CDC Report Says (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/fully-vaccinated-people-account-1-183124871.html)

I wouldn't call 25 to 50- percent breakthrough cases "vastly different"

Israel is like the canary in the coal mine and scientists/epidemiologists are watching what happens there closely. They were one of the first countries to fully vaccinate a large persentage of citizens, the Delta wave hit them earlier than USA, they documented the large percentage of breakthrough cases, and they are the first country to implement country wide booster shots. (which appear to be working quite well)

I am fully vaxed and recommend it to all at risk. But I find the vaccine shaming and call for vaccine passports ridiculous. First of all, there are probably over 100 million Americans with immunity from previous infection. Immunity that is stronger and more robust than that given by the vaccine. Should they be shamed and forced to vaccinate?

Personally, right now I'd feel safer in a room, boat or plane with 100% covid survivors than 100% vaccinated, because the fact is currently the rate of infection is "vastly different" when comparing breakthrough cases vs reinfections. :)

[golfing eagles]

Like Judge Judy says "you can't use outdated statistics"

Vastly different rates of contracting and spreading? Not since Delta arrived.

Israel has among the world’s highest levels of vaccination for COVID-19, with 78% of those 12 and older fully vaccinated, the vast majority with the Pfizer vaccine. Yet the country is now logging one of the world’s highest infection rates, with nearly 650 new cases daily per million people. More than half are in fully vaccinated people, underscoring the extraordinary transmissibility of the Delta variant and stoking concerns that the benefits of vaccination ebb over time.

AAAS (https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta)

Fully Vaccinated People Account for 1 in 4 COVID Cases Here, New CDC Report Says

Fully Vaccinated People Account for 1 in 4 COVID Cases Here, New CDC Report Says (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/fully-vaccinated-people-account-1-183124871.html)

I wouldn't call 25 to 50- percent breakthrough cases "vastly different"

Israel is like the canary in the coal mine and scientists/epidemiologists are watching what happens there closely. They were one of the first countries to fully vaccinate a large persentage of citizens, the Delta wave hit them earlier than USA, they documented the large percentage of breakthrough cases, and they are the first country to implement country wide booster shots. (which appear to be working quite well)

I am fully vaxed and recommend it to all at risk. But I find the vaccine shaming and call for vaccine passports ridiculous. First of all, there are probably over 100 million Americans with immunity from previous infection. Immunity that is stronger and more robust than that given by the vaccine. Should they be shamed and forced to vaccinate?

Personally, right now I'd feel safer in a room, boat or plane with 100% covid survivors than 100% vaccinated, because the fact is currently the rate of infection is "vastly different" when comparing breakthrough cases vs reinfections. :)

And now for the geography lesson-----we are NOT in Israel. Right here in Central Florida OVER 90% of the hospitalized are UNVACCINATED. Like Judge Judy says---"You can't use cherry picked statistics":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[SkBlogW]

And now for the geography lesson-----we are NOT in Israel. Right here in Central Florida OVER 90% of the hospitalized are UNVACCINATED. Like Judge Judy says---"You can't use cherry picked statistics":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I guess you missed the link to CDC study in Los Angeles. The Delta virus does not care where it is. Delta surge started earlier in Israel. Scientists around the world have closely watched Israel to see how vaccinations could affect the pandemic, since the country launched a rapid vaccination campaign in December 2020. This saw more than half of its population fully vaccinated as early as March this year.

PS I didn't say a thing about hospitalizations, just refuted your wild assertion that breathrough cases/infections were at "vastly different rates"

But since you asked for it.

Earlier this month, Science magazine reported that 514 Israelis were hospitalized with COVID as of August 15, that 59 percent of these had been fully vaccinated, and that the vast majority of these fully vaccinated people were aged 60 or older.

Israel's Grim COVID Data Suggests Vaccines Alone Won't Stop Pandemic (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/israel-s-grim-covid-data-suggests-vaccines-alone-won-t-stop-pandemic/ar-AANJIxp#:~:text=Scientists%20around%20the%20world% 20have%20closely%20watched%20Israel,fully%20vaccin ated%20as%20early%20as%20March%20this%20year).

[jimjamuser]

Ahh yes...Patrick Henry..........Love this part of that speech:

“Gentlemen may cry, ‘Peace, Peace,’ but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? ... Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
Thank you for CONTRIBUTING knowledge by expanding to all of Patrick Henry's quote. It IS a classic in History that I learned about in my early impressionable youth. I believe that it was directed against the British overlords that controlled the Colonies. The British would have been an EXTERNAL source of control or terrorism in search of control of the colonies. Today, it seems that we have ONLY EXTERNAL terrorism in a SOFT form like bots and trolls that can only influence the US. Actual PHYSICAL TERRORISM TODAY is in an early embryo stage, but STILL dangerous - it is INTERNAL, from within. I worry and warn against that POTENTIAL, but INCREASINGLY dangerous problem. Someone famous once said that America can never be conquered from without - ONLY from WITHIN !

[lkagele]

Personally, right now I'd feel safer in a room, boat or plane with 100% covid survivors than 100% vaccinated, because the fact is currently the rate of infection is "vastly different" when comparing breakthrough cases vs reinfections. :)

True that but you need to be careful. You're debating someone who, like Fauci, is apparently Mr. Science. He knows which experts are correct and which aren't.

[SkBlogW]

True that but you need to be careful. You're debating someone who, like Fauci, is apparently Mr. Science. He knows which experts are correct and which aren't.

Apparently doesn't know the difference between cases and hospitalizations. :icon_wink:

Speaking of my good friend Tony Fauci, I've had dinner with him twice. Both times were at conferences in DC with 5000 people eating rubberized chicken.

[golfing eagles]

Apparently doesn't know the difference between cases and hospitalizations. :icon_wink:

Speaking of my good friend Tony Fauci, I've had dinner with him twice. Both times were at conferences in DC with 5000 people eating rubberized chicken.

Yeah, that's right. I don't know the difference. Why don't you "educate" me?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

You said it yourself---Israel had an early, rapid vaccination program. So now, put on your thinking cap (if you have one). What country, 9 months later, is likely to have a large segment of their population with waning immunity????
And think a bit further----in 4 months, where do you think the USA will be???? But for now, this REMAINS A PANDEMIC OF THE UNVACCINATED. Hopefully, once we start giving out large numbers of booster shots it will remain that way. (which is why we are studying Israel's experience)

PS: I'm sorry you had rubber chicken with 5,000 people. The dinner at our table of 6 was delicious.

[golfing eagles]

True that but you need to be careful. You're debating someone who, like Fauci, is apparently Mr. Science. He knows which experts are correct and which aren't.

1) That's Dr. Science to you
2) I wish I was like Tony Fauci
3) yes, I'm pretty sure I can sort out the "experts"

Thanks for the compliment:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

1) That's Dr. Science to you
2) I wish I was like Tony Fauci
3) yes, I'm pretty sure I can sort out the "experts"

Thanks for the compliment:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

And BTW, have you noticed that most of the healthcare professionals (experts) on this site are in agreement while the Dr. Google (amateur) naysayers are just babbling???

[coffeebean]

.........................And tighten up the unemployment checks so that those who lose their jobs over refusing vaccination (unless they have a medical reason) are not able to get unemployment on some kind of technicality. They need not think they will have the luxury of lardassing around on my dime.

Oh well, enough of this. I did not intend to get started this morning.

Boomer
Agree!

[jimjamuser]

Like Judge Judy says "you can't use outdated statistics"

Vastly different rates of contracting and spreading? Not since Delta arrived.

Israel has among the world’s highest levels of vaccination for COVID-19, with 78% of those 12 and older fully vaccinated, the vast majority with the Pfizer vaccine. Yet the country is now logging one of the world’s highest infection rates, with nearly 650 new cases daily per million people. More than half are in fully vaccinated people, underscoring the extraordinary transmissibility of the Delta variant and stoking concerns that the benefits of vaccination ebb over time.

AAAS (https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta)

Fully Vaccinated People Account for 1 in 4 COVID Cases Here, New CDC Report Says

Fully Vaccinated People Account for 1 in 4 COVID Cases Here, New CDC Report Says (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/fully-vaccinated-people-account-1-183124871.html)

I wouldn't call 25 to 50- percent breakthrough cases "vastly different"

Israel is like the canary in the coal mine and scientists/epidemiologists are watching what happens there closely. They were one of the first countries to fully vaccinate a large persentage of citizens, the Delta wave hit them earlier than USA, they documented the large percentage of breakthrough cases, and they are the first country to implement country wide booster shots. (which appear to be working quite well)

I am fully vaxed and recommend it to all at risk. But I find the vaccine shaming and call for vaccine passports ridiculous. First of all, there are probably over 100 million Americans with immunity from previous infection. Immunity that is stronger and more robust than that given by the vaccine. Should they be shamed and forced to vaccinate?

Personally, right now I'd feel safer in a room, boat or plane with 100% covid survivors than 100% vaccinated, because the fact is currently the rate of infection is "vastly different" when comparing breakthrough cases vs reinfections. :)
I will choose the room filled with fully vaccinated people, please! I read that link.....thank you! The CDC did say 25% breakthrough cases for JUST ONE large city - but, regardless, the CDC did say that it likely is UNDER-REPORTED. So, I will wait for other medical posters to agree or disagree - then I may go back to square 1 during that Alpha variant and go into partial-quarantine and stay 7ft away from people outside and not venture indoors unless necessary. I have some underlying conditions! I DO very much APPRECIATE your link and I will change my behavior accordingly AFTER I have done MORE RESEARCH.

[jimjamuser]

And BTW, have you noticed that most of the healthcare professionals (experts) on this site are in agreement while the Dr. Google (amateur) naysayers are just babbling???
I agree and I believe the 97% of all US medical Doctors are fully vaccinated. And will probably take the BOOSTER 3rd shot. Yes, this IS (in the US) a Pandemic of the UNvaccinated! I like the logic of taking the time period of Israel's vaccination program and putting it into perspective - and USEFUL to us in the US. Good job, kudos! I come here for information, not controversy.

[John Mayes]

Debating an important issue is NEVER a waste of time. On a national Historic scale, I offer as an example the Abe Lincoln and Douglas ( or whomever) debates. Patrick Henry made an important quote in History to sway people toward his side of an issue. Debating is studied and promoted in Universities throughout the US and the world. NOT taking out an argument leads to violence as a way to resolve conflicts. That is what the profession of Marriage Counselor is ALL about. Conclusion......debate is as American as APPLE PIE!

Not questioning the legitimacy or importance of honest debate but the same 14 or 15 people spends hours spouting the same tired statements “for” or “against” anything to do with vaccinations or COVID studies. If you, and I don’t mean you personally, thinks that you’re going to change anyone’s mind on the other side of the argument, you’re kidding yourselves. There’s too much good in life and living here to waste time trying to convince others that simply don’t agree on a particular issue.

Ok, I’m off the soapbox now. I’m going to have a beer and take my wife to dinner. Have a wonderful evening to all.

[fishon]

I'm sorry multiple lockdowns didn't work.
I'm sorry your masks don't work.
I'm sorry your vaccines won't work unless you bully everyone to get your vaccinations.