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Manolo2
09-04-2021, 01:07 PM
Some advisory articles recommend using a revocable living trust to help protect from elder financial abuse in the event that one becomes mentally (or physically) incompetent. Especially in the scenario where one is a widow with no children and no other living relatives. I am researching whether a trust could help me BEFORE I die. (My goal is different than most people who use trusts for probate avoidance and other issues AFTER death.) Any advice on using a trust for this purpose? Any thoughts about designating a “corporate trustee” (i.e., a trust company) rather than a family member as trustee? Any local trust company recommendations?

Henryk
09-04-2021, 02:25 PM
Some advisory articles recommend using a revocable living trust to help protect from elder financial abuse in the event that one becomes mentally (or physically) incompetent. Especially in the scenario where one is a widow with no children and no other living relatives. I am researching whether a trust could help me BEFORE I die. (My goal is different than most people who use trusts for probate avoidance and other issues AFTER death.) Any advice on using a trust for this purpose? Any thoughts about designating a “corporate trustee” (i.e., a trust company) rather than a family member as trustee? Any local trust company recommendations?

Call Attorney Amy Pittman for a consultation. 352-399-6944.

villagetinker
09-04-2021, 04:28 PM
I agree with Amy Pittman recommendation.

rjm1cc
09-04-2021, 05:01 PM
A power of attorney might be your answer. I do not see any benefit to a revocable living trust since you can do what ever you want with the assets. A trust that would become irrevocable when you could not manage your assets and using a large professional trustee could be a good idea.

manaboutown
09-04-2021, 05:45 PM
Please consult a reputable attorney specializing in such matters. I have used a RLT for over twenty years. It contains a provision that if I am cognitively incapacitated the trustee will run the show as no one in my immediate family is capable of doing so. If my incapacity is temporary I can be restored to managing things with a physician's consent. That provision gives me peace of mind.

RLTs have many advantages, especially reducing probate expenses and hassles. In simple modest estates it can be a do it yourself project although I do not recommend it. What Is a Revocable Living Trust and Why Make One? | Nolo (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/revocable-living-trusts.html)

Boomer
09-04-2021, 09:50 PM
Posts #2 and #3 recommended the same attorney. Both of the gentlemen doing the recommending are credible posters here. If I were you, I would start by making an appointment to consult with the attorney they both suggested, have your questions ready, and see what you think.

MrLonzo
09-05-2021, 06:26 AM
You didn't say specifically what your concern is with "elder financial abuse", but I believe that is what a financial power of attorney is for. With no living relatives, you could appoint a trusted friend to such a position. If you, like myself, have no one you feel comfortable appointing, there are professional fiduciaries that can do the job. Just make sure they are with a reputable company or have appropriate licensing/bonding/certification. An estate planner can help find the appropriate person. Such fiduciaries can also take on the job of estate executor.

As far as using a trust, I assume you'll be leaving your assets mostly to charity so probate will not be an issue, nor would it be likely to have anyone challenge your Will. Thus the two main reasons for having a Trust disappear. And finding a trusted successor Trustee comes with the same challenges as finding a financial power of attorney. I've set up a donor advised fund (easy to do with Schwab or Fidelity), which has a legacy feature as well. You can simply maintain your own personal funds then bequeath them to the DAF as a beneficiary when you die.

gpk111
09-05-2021, 06:35 AM
Please consult a reputable attorney specializing in such matters. I have used a RLT for over twenty years. It contains a provision that if I am cognitively incapacitated the trustee will run the show as no one in my immediate family is capable of doing so. If my incapacity is temporary I can be restored to managing things with a physician's consent. That provision gives me peace of mind.

RLTs have many advantages, especially reducing probate expenses and hassles. In simple modest estates it can be a do it yourself project although I do not recommend it. What Is a Revocable Living Trust and Why Make One? | Nolo (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/revocable-living-trusts.html)

Manaboutown: Thanks for the discussion. I'm researching this and going down my own path as far as I can to make the legal encounter as efficient as possible (most estate lawyers charge by the hour). The link within your referenced link that discusses the DIY possibility does not work. Any updates or references that you found useful?

Some clarifications: I have found the the "Revocable Trust" document usually does not address incapacity. That is done with a "Durable Power of Attorney" document and to a lesser extent by a "Health Care Surrogate" document (non life threaening health care decisions) or ultimately through a "Living Will" document ("plug pulling" or DNR instructions). The Trust package usually includes all those documents as well as a "HIPAA Release" for authorizing medical records release and a "Pourover Will" to address assets that are not titled in the trust.

You raise an interesting point about restoring your decision making powers. Never thought about it. It may be a standard provision within the Power of attorney.

Further clarification: You imply that you have "used" RLTs for a long time. I believe you meant that you have set up the trust and placed assets in it. The actual decision making is still yours with the same SS number. So the way I see it, the RLT really does nothing for you while you're alive: no asset protection, no tax benefits, etc. It DOES set things up to make it easier and more private as you transcend to fly your cloud.

When you pass, the revocable trust now becomes irrevocable and your "successor trustee" (that person is usually named within the trust document) calls the shots and hopefully will follow your instructions. The assets that are in the trust are not subject to probate, since the trust already owns them. Also, regardless of who held power of attorney while you were still alive, the POA terminates upon death and the successor trustee takes over.

Manolo2 (OP): It sounds like you are concerned about your assets being diverted against your wishes. Merely setting up a RLT will not address that, since that trust is changeable (hence the name "revocable). So if someone exerts undue influence on you while you are alive, but short of incapacitated, it would not accomplish your goals. If you cede decision making authority to the Power of Attorney holder while you're alive, that could accomplish your goals. If that POA were a corporate entity, it would probably have even more force, but corporate trustees are not positioned to take on the POA responsibility. They step in as "successor trustees" after your death.

An extreme alternative would be to set up an "Irrevocable Trust" or simply gift the asssets while you're still alive, but you would also lose control.

Also, corporate trustees normally don't get paid to manage your assets until after you pass, another reason why they most probably would not be involved in protecting your assets while alive.

Once you pass, an RLT would accomplish your goals. So would a will. So my feeling is that a RLT has many advantages (no probate, ease of transition, privacy, continuity after you die, etc ), but it will not help with elder abuse any more than a will.

PS Some strong laws have been passed recently in Florida to address elder abuse, but I gather the purpose of your post is to try to avoid legal hassles after your'e gone.

TNLAKEPANDA
09-05-2021, 06:37 AM
Some advisory articles recommend using a revocable living trust to help protect from elder financial abuse in the event that one becomes mentally (or physically) incompetent. Especially in the scenario where one is a widow with no children and no other living relatives. I am researching whether a trust could help me BEFORE I die. (My goal is different than most people who use trusts for probate avoidance and other issues AFTER death.) Any advice on using a trust for this purpose? Any thoughts about designating a “corporate trustee” (i.e., a trust company) rather than a family member as trustee? Any local trust company recommendations?

Go see Amy Pittman or one of her attorneys. They are excellent and will give you good advice!

Bay Kid
09-05-2021, 06:53 AM
A power of attorney might be your answer. I do not see any benefit to a revocable living trust since you can do what ever you want with the assets. A trust that would become irrevocable when you could not manage your assets and using a large professional trustee could be a good idea. What is the objective of the trust?

I have power of attorney for both parents. I prefer to have a family member make decisions over a stranger, lawyer or banker. But everyone have different needs. I did get attorney advice.

dlebuis
09-05-2021, 09:39 AM
We used Pitman Law Office too. Very pleased at how knowledgeable they were.

gpk111
09-05-2021, 09:59 AM
Please consult a reputable attorney specializing in such matters. I have used a RLT for over twenty years. It contains a provision that if I am cognitively incapacitated the trustee will run the show as no one in my immediate family is capable of doing so. If my incapacity is temporary I can be restored to managing things with a physician's consent. That provision gives me peace of mind.

RLTs have many advantages, especially reducing probate expenses and hassles. In simple modest estates it can be a do it yourself project although I do not recommend it. What Is a Revocable Living Trust and Why Make One? | Nolo (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/revocable-living-trusts.html)

Did you use a corporate trustee? If so, would you mind sharing who?

KRMACK55
09-05-2021, 10:06 AM
A power of attorney might be your answer. I do not see any benefit to a revocable living trust since you can do what ever you want with the assets. A trust that would become irrevocable when you could not manage your assets and using a large professional trustee could be a good idea. What is the objective of the trust?
You’re exactly correct ! Thank you for clearly stating such

KRMACK55
09-05-2021, 10:09 AM
Posts #2 and #3 recommended the same attorney. Both of the gentlemen doing the recommending are credible posters here. If I were you, I would start by making an appointment to consult with the attorney they both suggested, have your questions ready, and see what you think.
If she’s professional she would offer a free consultation. Research as much as you can and find a library with Florida law. Sad there is no decent library which the residents deserve.

KRMACK55
09-05-2021, 10:12 AM
You didn't say specifically what your concern is with "elder financial abuse", but I believe that is what a financial power of attorney is for. With no living relatives, you could appoint a trusted friend to such a position. If you, like myself, have no one you feel comfortable appointing, there are professional fiduciaries that can do the job. Just make sure they are with a reputable company or have appropriate licensing/bonding/certification. An estate planner can help find the appropriate person. Such fiduciaries can also take on the job of estate executor.

As far as using a trust, I assume you'll be leaving your assets mostly to charity so probate will not be an issue, nor would it be likely to have anyone challenge your Will. Thus the two main reasons for having a Trust disappear. And finding a trusted successor Trustee comes with the same challenges as finding a financial power of attorney. I've set up a donor advised fund (easy to do with Schwab or Fidelity), which has a legacy feature as well. You can simply maintain your own personal funds then bequeath them to the DAF as a beneficiary when you die.
Avoid retail investors like Schwab and Fidelity with lots of fees embedded in these estates.

An attorney who only does estate planning should be both an accountant tax attorney with a speciality in trusts. They also can give a price for preparing everything including DNR and other measures.

gpk111
09-05-2021, 10:23 AM
You’re exactly correct ! Thank you for clearly stating such

Trust will not help with elder abuse, but ultimately, you should choose between a will or trust anyway.

gpk111
09-05-2021, 10:42 AM
Avoid retail investors like Schwab and Fidelity with lots of fees embedded in these estates.

An attorney who only does estate planning should be both an accountant tax attorney with a speciality in trusts. They also can give a price for preparing everything including DNR and other measures.

I see a comingling here. Consider these various functions:

Power of attorney - Usually individuals with minimal fees if you know them. Could also be attorneys for a steep fee. Authority stops immediately upon death.

Investment managers - Could be boutique or major institutions. Usually about 1% management fee plus cost of asset (nothing for stocks or ETF's, up to ~3 % for complex mutual funds)

Attorney - Writes wills or trust documents. In the case of wills, could act as executor or get hired by executor. Can execute very lucrative probate process. In the case of trusts, setup fees are steeper than wills, but much simpler execution upon death. They also draft related documents: POA, HIPAA, DNR, etc

Executor (for wills)/Successor trustee (for trusts) - someone entrusted to make sure your wishes are carried out. Executor acts after death only and could hore a lawyer or trust department if so spelled out in will or trust.

Trust departments - Can act as successor trustee. Could also be a co-trustee with a family member, but focus is on investmenet management. That's their main source of revenue.

Accountants - Files tax documents.

Tax attorney - Files tax documents, but presumably more tax compliant in case of complex issues. Tax attorney work is often related to the a trust attorney, since the trust documents can have a bearing on tax filings.

Luggage
09-06-2021, 05:09 AM
Most lawyers in Florida do not offer anything for free.

Debra Freeman
09-06-2021, 05:25 AM
You can also appoint a pre need professional guardian and a health care surrogate that you have interviewed and trust. Professional guardians are overseen by the courts.

Robnlaura
09-06-2021, 06:16 AM
After many years of trying to get my 96 year old mother into considering assisted living and being opposed by a brother who convinced her that our desire to have her sell her home and use the proceeds for her care was us really trying to steal her money, he convinced her to sign a power of attorney in his favor.. she fell broke her hip ( as we warned would happen) he summarily moved into her house “to help her” after a week of that he moved her into his house in New Jersey from florida he now has full control over her and her estate. Be careful with these power of attorney documents

B-flat
09-06-2021, 06:36 AM
After many years of trying to get my 96 year old mother into considering assisted living and being opposed by a brother who convinced her that our desire to have her sell her home and use the proceeds for her care was us really trying to steal her money, he convinced her to sign a power of attorney in his favor.. she fell broke her hip ( as we warned would happen) he summarily moved into her house “to help her” after a week of that he moved her into his house in New Jersey from florida he now has full control over her and her estate. Be careful with these power of attorney documents

Sorry to hear of your situation. Your brother sounds like a con-man.

Ghat724@gmail.com
09-06-2021, 06:54 AM
Power of Attorney is not eagerly accepted by a lot of institutions.
Besides it expires when the person for which it was created dies. A Revocable Living Trust is best for a widow or widower. Contact attorney Amy Pittman.
I was the successor trustee for my mother who died at age 100. Finalizing and distributing Mom's estate according to her wishes could not have been easier!

Orvil
09-06-2021, 08:32 AM
National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys (https://www.naela.org/)
National Academy of Elder Law

You need an Elder Law specialist. This is an attorney or law practice that specializes in Elder Law and estate issues.

I've used this group's search engine to find a good lawyer twice for family members needing assistance. I've used one myself.

Setting things up properly certainly helped my in-laws when their time came to be cared for and their passing. It kept siblings and grandchildren on the straight and narrow, too. Both were properly cared for and their estates were very easy to clear. I only wish my attorney parents hadn't been so pig headed and consulted an Elder Law expert. They thought that they already knew it all. What they didn't factor was dementia. It was a nightmare. They had a lower standard of care as a result even with caring children trying to do what was right for them.

To find someone in another state to deal with setting up these documents was made much easier by finding an attorney specializing in these issues. They will also have access to financial planners and accountants should those be needed.

I've recommended their website to a number of friends with success. An hour's consultation is well worth the cost. In the case of my late in-laws, I contacted the law firm. I spoke with the attorney and set up the appointment. I advised the Elder Law attorney that they were too cheap to pay for good legal advice. I arranged for her to charge them a nominal fee and send the remainder of the bill to me. She said that this was very common and she completely understood. They met with her. It was such a load off their minds.

What I've learned from all these experiences is every person's situation is unique. Size of assets is not the only issue. No one's situation is so unique that an Elder Care attorney can't sort it out for you in advance. It's very comforting to have a plan of action.

Boomer
09-06-2021, 09:13 AM
After many years of trying to get my 96 year old mother into considering assisted living and being opposed by a brother who convinced her that our desire to have her sell her home and use the proceeds for her care was us really trying to steal her money, he convinced her to sign a power of attorney in his favor.. she fell broke her hip ( as we warned would happen) he summarily moved into her house “to help her” after a week of that he moved her into his house in New Jersey from florida he now has full control over her and her estate. Be careful with these power of attorney documents


Thank you for posting this. In late 2020, we redid our stuff, via emailed documents and 2 virtual meetings with our attorney, followed by an in-person meeting for the signing -- with masks and social distancing. (We used an attorney in our home state because we spend more time there than we used to and it has remained our place of primary residence.)

In some ways, 2020 was a good time to get things done. We could take our time and get all the questions really together and play through all the "what if scenarios." We are a small family --with no cons in the line-up -- but even so, it is important to try to cross all the t's and dot all the i's.

When I was carefully reading the power-of-attorney, it occurred to me that I had not realized before how incredibly powerful that document is. It is not something to take lightly.

I think, no matter how we are doing now, as we age, we all fear the "what if scenario" of being unable to handle our own business.

I am so sorry your mother was victimized -- and by her own son -- who was also more than willing to victimize the rest of the family, too. Unfortunately, such a thing is more common than we would like to think.

I have heard it said -- "You never really know somebody until you are to share an estate with them."

The boomers are aging in a time of more smaller families or no children at all or with beloved children spread around geographically -- and these things are now, more often, adding yet another layer of complication to elder-care decisions.

I hope our OP here will think seriously about calling the attorney -- well recommended in this thread -- and at least get an appointment to find out if she's a match.

Before going to such an appointment, it is really important to sit down and make a list of all the questions and scenarios that can be thought of -- and go in prepared and with the realization that such important decisions will probably take more than one appointment -- with more thinking time in-between. (This should not be boilerplate stuff.)

Boomer

Ghat724@gmail.com
09-19-2021, 06:55 AM
Whoever handles your estate must be trustworthy. A successor trustee to a revocable trust has a strict set of instructions that he or she must follow. As the successor trustee to my mother's trust it was easy to pay the bills and distribute the money without questions or demands from my siblings.
Don't name a trust company or bank trust department as the successor trustee. They move slowly and charge large fees. Use them or estate lawyers in an advisory capacity only, if needed. A revocable trust is only revocable by the maker. When the maker dies the instructions in the trust are set in stone. This is the way to go.
Creating the trust is not expensive. I recommend lawyer Any Pittman in Oxford.

Michael G.
09-19-2021, 09:09 AM
Forget about all of the above and just adopt me. lol

gpk111
09-19-2021, 09:56 AM
Whoever handles your estate must be trustworthy. A successor trustee to a revocable trust has a strict set of instructions that he or she must follow. As the successor trustee to my mother's trust it was easy to pay the bills and distribute the money without questions or demands from my siblings.
Don't name a trust company or bank trust department as the successor trustee. They move slowly and charge large fees. Use them or estate lawyers in an advisory capacity only, if needed. A revocable trust is only revocable by the maker. When the maker dies the instructions in the trust are set in stone. This is the way to go.
Creating the trust is not expensive. I recommend lawyer Any Pittman in Oxford.

Valuable thread here. Thanks for comments. I'm working on a Trust which may last for more than one generation and I have made these observations re trust administration, governance and compliance:

Most Trust Companies focus on “Assets under Management.” They charge ~1% annually and provide free administrative services as part of the package. In theory, admin services to large accounts are at the same level as small accounts. In practice, corporate trust services can be cumbersome to deal with and they will charge the estate for services such as accounting and to resolve serious legal questions. It might be better to focus the trust management on one or two individuals (with named successors), and have them hire a money manager, accountant, and attorneys as needed.

Any additional comments appreciated!

dougjb
09-19-2021, 10:29 AM
Gee, I think I shall start a thread that seeks advice on how to do self-administered open heart surgery.

To me, it is inane to seek legal advice from a bunch of people who might be named blarney or off the cuff or even dougjb. Are you aware of their credentials? What is their experience? Are they basing their statement on a knowledge of the law...or are then stating an opinion in the guise of legal knowledge? Perhaps they are just opining upon whether they hope something is right or wrong.

Threads like this are dangerous, in my opinion and should be shut down.

Go to a lawyer! Cough up some money and get solid legal advice unless seven years of education beyond secondary school, an intensive admissions test (the Bar) and years of experience mean nothing.

rjm1cc
09-19-2021, 11:23 AM
Gee, I think I shall start a thread that seeks advice on how to do self-administered open heart surgery.

To me, it is inane to seek legal advice from a bunch of people who might be named blarney or off the cuff or even dougjb. Are you aware of their credentials? What is their experience? Are they basing their statement on a knowledge of the law...or are then stating an opinion in the guise of legal knowledge? Perhaps they are just opining upon whether they hope something is right or wrong.

Threads like this are dangerous, in my opinion and should be shut down.

Go to a lawyer! Cough up some money and get solid legal advice unless seven years of education beyond secondary school, an intensive admissions test (the Bar) and years of experience mean nothing.

A big problem is you do not know what you do not know. Thus you may not know what questions to ask when you meet with a professional. I think doing some research and posting questions can help one get to an informed valid result when finally meeting with a professional.

Boomer
09-19-2021, 03:37 PM
never mind

DAVES
09-26-2021, 10:20 AM
Avoid retail investors like Schwab and Fidelity with lots of fees embedded in these estates.

An attorney who only does estate planning should be both an accountant tax attorney with a speciality in trusts. They also can give a price for preparing everything including DNR and other measures.

I'm not an attorney. As far as a will, it is on my to do list. Perhaps, been there so long it is really on my shoulda done list. As I am still alive perhaps it is on my get up off your butt and get it done list.

As far as a DNR-do not recessitate form, you can get the form on line or from your doctor. Based on personal experience it is not binding. Should you be say brain dead,
your family can go around your DNR as was done by my cousin with my uncle. My uncle was like a father to me. It was not my place and I said nothing as it happened. My uncle passed a few days latter.

As, stated I am not an attorney. My views, based on my very limited experience. Many years ago, I inherited a piece of real estate, worth about 20,000 at the time so now ?????
call it 150,000. My great great uncle was the executor of the estate. The will was never properly probated. I only had rumors from my mother that the land was left to me. This great great uncle thought this land actually worth very little when it was left to me should go to someone other than me. My point when it comes to money sadly, you can trust no one. The rest of the story is even more of a mess but...............

My other experience was my parents estate. My parents had little. They did have a will and while they had little anything of value was divided by item between myself and my sister. When, my mom passed my sister and I were fighting about other things. We agreed to follow the will. When, it comes to legal and money, nothing is a simple as it should be. The WILL, something about a BLUE COVER. I had a photocopy. the attorney had closed up her practice but I found her. She claimed she sent the BLUE COVER copy to my sister who claimed she never got it. Getting a proper BLUE COVER COPY cost us hundreds of additional legal expense. The original BLUE COVER copy later turned up in my brother in laws safety deposit box. Moral when it comes to money, legal, right, wrong cover all bases. I was too lazy and too trusting to watch. Stuff my brother in law and my sister pulled had I decided to pursue it they likely would be in jail. Beware of who and what you trust.