General Lee

[Bay Kid]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.

[dewilson58]

Some are trying to erase history.

Removing a statue does not change history.

Just low hanging fruit for some.

[ditka41]

Another sad display of arrogance and stupidity. I am waiting for a notice from the left wing morons that my middle name is no longer going to be tolerated by our enlightened government and declaring my parents were wrong when they chose it in honor of General Lee. When will they stop trying to erase our American history?

[golfing eagles]

Another sad display of arrogance and stupidity. I am waiting for a notice from the left wing morons that my middle name is no longer going to be tolerated by our enlightened government and declaring my parents were wrong when they chose it in honor of General Lee. When will they stop trying to erase our American history?

Good question---probably need to look at what stopped Adolph from burning books

[Taltarzac725]

You can put history in a closet but it keeps coming back at you in many ways.

Robert E. Lee was a great soldier and man. Robert E. Lee - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee)

[Stu from NYC]

Such a foolish thing to do. Our kids are never going to know the history of our great country.

You cannot just the past based on the present but can learn how we got here today.

[bimmertl]

Such a foolish thing to do. Our kids are never going to know the history of our great country.

You cannot just the past based on the present but can learn how we got here today.

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Some are trying to erase history.

Removing a statue does not change history.

Just low hanging fruit for some.

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

[billethkid]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

As measured by today's standards/views.

What did the folks who decided to have the statue made and placing it where it is/was....thinking when they decided to go forward?

The will and intent of the people of the past cannot be measured by the distorted special interests of today.

[Taltarzac725]

Lee, Robert E. (1807-1870), soldier | American National Biography (https://www.anb.org/view/10.1093/anb/9780198606697.001.0001/anb-9780198606697-e-0400622)

I did find this quite interesting. It is by a well respected military historian-- Russell F. Weigley Russell Weigley - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Weigley)

[Bucco]

Some are trying to erase history.

Removing a statue does not change history.

Just low hanging fruit for some.

You are correct…..removing a statue does not change history…..opposing CRT certainly changes it and removes facts from it. History should be a chronicle of the past, not how we want it to be…..not how we wish it were, but how it was.

Best lesson for young folks is to understand real honest history and do better as they grow.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!

Yeah way up in Connecticut we learned about the Civil War, also known as the War Between the States (among others). We learned that Lee was a general of the Confederate States - which no longer exists except in the minds of those who refuse to accept that the Confederacy lost the war.

We had no statues of Lee in my town, and we had no problem learning about him and the various battles. He should've just given up in Antietam. If I was a Confederate Southerner I would not want his statue being honored in my town's public park. Maybe a memorial statue to honor ALL the dead, like we have now with military memorials. But his role in the Civil War should not be glorified or celebrated.

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

I’m all for teaching the history of the civil war and studying the battlefield tactics of confederate officers.I also have no problem with statues honoring the average confederate soldier, but to. Put statues up to honor traitors and to name military posts for generals who broke there oath to this country I find appalling .I have felt like this since high school and just walking around any New England town and seeing.the monuments to those who died only strengthens that opinion . I don’t believe in capital execution but Jeff Davis Robert Lee and the next 5 top politicians and generals should have been hanged for the carnage they caused, and now feel free to tell me about the so called Noble Cause that is sinking in to the new history it will probably come from the same people who are complaining about history being washed out

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

As measured by today's standards/views.

What did the folks who decided to have the statue made and placing it where it is/was....thinking when they decided to go forward?

The will and intent of the people of the past cannot be measured by the distorted special interests of today.

The statue was erected in 1890, on Monument Avenue, which existed to glorify and celebrate people who fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War. Glorify and Celebrate - the people who rejected the Union (which was, at the time, what we know now as the United States of America) and fought against it. This war, this Civil War, was the culmination of an attempt to overturn the government. An insurrection of "monumental" proportions (pun intended). The population in Richmond was mostly wealthy white people and poverty-stricken black people. The abolition of slavery only happened 25 years prior, so most adults living there were former slaves with no job, no prospects, few people willing to actually PAY them to work. I would venture to guess that the blacks living in Richmond would not have been very happy to see the figure of their former oppressor be placed proudly and prominently in their town center.

[Taltarzac725]

Making Sense of Robert E. Lee
|
History

| Smithsonian Magazine (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/)

This is worth a look.

[JMintzer]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

Where are these mythical museums where they're putting all of these statues?

[JMintzer]

I'm glad they took it down...

Racism is now solved and we'll not have to hear about it any more...


Wait, what?

[Taltarzac725]

What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem? - Modern War Institute (https://mwi.usma.edu/west-point-robert-e-lee-problem/)

How about General Robert E. Lee as seen by cadets at West Point in 2020? The comments after the article are worth a long look.

[Stu from NYC]

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!

Have you noticed that our children and grandchildren go to school and learn very little about our history.

Perhaps when they see a statue they might be interested in learning more about the man and the times he lived in.

[Chi-Town]

Took a ride down Monument Ave. last year and only saw two statues. Arthur Ashe and Robert E. Lee. Kind of ironic don't you think?

Anyhow the Lee statue was quite a sight to see with every square inch of the pedestal covered with graffiti.

[Road-Runner]

The 'victors' always manage to rewrite history and to a large degree the losers, too. Japan has removed all mention of the atrocities perpetrated by their troops such as The Rape Of Nanjing, their beheading of prisoners, etc. etc. Now our civil war was fought for one reason and one reason only, the noble pursuit of abolishing slavery. It's almost totally untrue, but heh what does that matter?

[Chi-Town]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

The previous president disagrees with your assessment of Lee's ability.

..."If only we had Robert E. Lee to command our troops in Afghanistan, that disaster would have ended in a complete and total victory many years ago"...

Amazing.

[Bucco]

Have you noticed that our children and grandchildren go to school and learn very little about our history.

Perhaps when they see a statue they might be interested in learning more about the man and the times he lived in.

No I have not at all. Most kids are hungry to learn, and that should be something we all instill in them.

[Bucco]

The previous president disagrees with your assessment of Lee's ability.

..."If only we had Robert E. Lee to command our troops in Afghanistan, that disaster would have ended in a complete and total victory many years ago"...

Amazing.

A real student of history which has been exhibited over the years !!!

[Taltarzac725]

The previous president disagrees with your assessment of Lee's ability.

..."If only we had Robert E. Lee to command our troops in Afghanistan, that disaster would have ended in a complete and total victory many years ago"...

Amazing.

Maybe a Sherman with his March to the Sea kind of scorched earth tactics. That does not make any friends in that area for the future though. Scorched earth | Military Wiki | Fandom (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth)

[BigSteph]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.


I am from Richmond.

All of the tearing down of the city is one of the reasons I left recently. No, not a big reason, but just another check on the Pro/Con list of reasons to leave.

I get that the monuments are symbols with different meanings to the different types of people that live in the city. If I were black, it would remind me of just how troubled my existence may have been 150 years ago, and continuing to present.

Had we decided as a city to address things and let everyone make a case, it is possible that the monuments could have been respectfully moved to a more appropriate place (such as a national civil war battlefield). Yet, we didn't have those discussions and we had a summer of rage where every manner of illegal activity was allowed to flourish in Richmond. The monuments were defaced. A feel good moment for some, and an insult to others. Civility was on vacation and a line was drawn -- My Tribe or Your Tribe.

Richmond is famous for its past and it cannot escape it. Unlike Charleston and New Orleans and others, Richmond is unable to celebrate the very bad and the good -- hold it up to the truth of the past. The original White House of the Confederacy was in Richmond. The "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" speech by Patrick Henry from a hundred years earlier is only blocks away. Edgar Allen Poe had a home another block or two away. Mr. Bojangles was a Richmonder. Arthur Ashe was born in Richmond. The QB from the Seahawks, Russel Wilson, is a Richmonder -- my friend coached him in high school -- he said he was a better baseball player than he was at football -- imagine that.


Richmond even had an opportunity to host the national slave museum and somehow it decided against it. Richmond was one of the top locations in America for the importation of human labor (slaves). It would have been fitting to have the National Slave Museum adjacent to the White House of the Confederacy on grand Church Hill. Richmond could have capitalized on its past and gave context to those bronze and granite statues. Context that might be hard to accept by some, and ever-so needed for others.

Instead, like so many urban areas, the city erupted into an unrecognizable orgy of ropes, chains, spray paint, broken windows, and fires. Buses burned in the street, buildings set ablaze, shops looted. The summer was long and hot, covid was raging, and social justice flames fanned hotter. Interesting to note, the vast majority of the faces of the agitators were pale, not brown or black.

I drove downtown weeks later and it looked like something from a picture of a war zone.

I realized that it wasn't a place for me any more. Richmond cannot celebrate its history, it can only tear it down. The thing is, it all still happened.

[Velvet]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.

One step further, under Communism history is rewritten with every change of leadership. In most countries history is just conveniently reinterpreted. And other countries are ashamed of theirs. Each to their own.

[Billy1]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.

Lee lost the war against the United States of America, praise God.

[jimbomaybe]

Taking down statues is much like burning books you don't agree with, leaving it up as a something to provoke ( a reasoned) discussion of history would seem to this "Joe Six pack" a better course

[Girlcopper]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

That statue has been up for decades with no protests. Now, all of a sudden, its offensive. Boohoo. I have never heard anyone ever feel the statue was meant to look at blacks as inferior. Sounds like a personal opinion and not fact

[villageuser]

You are correct…..removing a statue does not change history…..opposing CRT certainly changes it and removes facts from it. History should be a chronicle of the past, not how we want it to be…..not how we wish it were, but how it was.

Best lesson for young folks is to understand real honest history and do better as they grow.

Best lesson for young folks to learn is that history is written by the VICTORS. Doesn’t necessarily include all the facts nor is the information necessarily unbiased. Maybe all history written by victors should be offset by history written by the defeated, and the people understand that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

[swooner]

Only history is "He Lost"!

[Dave Laluk]

Unvaccinated adults are putting our unvaccinated children at risk. The kids under 12 can't get vaccinated yet. Therefore, responsible adults have a responsibility to protect them in any way we can. Irresponsible adults who won't get vaccinated need to be pressured in whatever way possible in order to protect the kids.

[RICH1]

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!
Ignorance runs rampant thru the empty hallways of your mind!

[Bay Kid]

Took a ride down Monument Ave. last year and only saw two statues. Arthur Ashe and Robert E. Lee. Kind of ironic don't you think?

Anyhow the Lee statue was quite a sight to see with every square inch of the pedestal covered with graffiti.

What a disgrace. The profanity was so intense they couldn't show it on tv.
Hopefully they all feel better now.

[NoMo50]

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

Incredible. So, should we tear down the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial since WE lost?

[Lindaws]

They don’t know the history of anything. Our history is being wiped out and not taught anymore.

[COLTempleton]

You can put history in a closet but it keeps coming back at you in many ways.

Robert E. Lee was a great soldier and man. Robert E. Lee - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee)

What people may not realize is that the North actually asked Lee to fight for them. Also, Lee did not have slaves and was against slavery.

[forebubba]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

BRAVO, well said. Lee was a traitor to the US Constitution and fought to keep slaves. Would have he won in Afghanistan? Haaaa

[forebubba]

A real student of history which has been exhibited over the years !!!

The soldiers in the Revolutionary War took over the airports to win the war. The man knows history. Which foot had bone spurs?

[graciegirl]

The statue was erected in 1890, on Monument Avenue, which existed to glorify and celebrate people who fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War. Glorify and Celebrate - the people who rejected the Union (which was, at the time, what we know now as the United States of America) and fought against it. This war, this Civil War, was the culmination of an attempt to overturn the government. An insurrection of "monumental" proportions (pun intended). The population in Richmond was mostly wealthy white people and poverty-stricken black people. The abolition of slavery only happened 25 years prior, so most adults living there were former slaves with no job, no prospects, few people willing to actually PAY them to work. I would venture to guess that the blacks living in Richmond would not have been very happy to see the figure of their former oppressor be placed proudly and prominently in their town center.

It is history. Our ancestor, Charles Schorn won the Congressional Medal of Honor for capturing the last flag of the Civil War at Appomattox. He was an eighteen year old kid who had migrated from Germany. He lived along the Ohio river in Pomeroy, Ohio and volunteered and fought with the West Virginia unit. He returned to be a barber in Pomeroy and was patriarch to an amazing group of people, one of them is my husband of sixty years.

Charles Schorn - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Schorn)

He was poor. Many of his descendants became wealthy and financially successful. I never heard any of them judge anyone on their finances. I never heard any of them say anything negative about the South and it's people.

The people who fought for the South felt as strongly as those that fought for the North I am sure. It wasn't just about slavery at all but about tribe and honor and their patriotism.

People who fought for the South were good people. I think Robert E. Lee was a military leader who was also a good man.

It isn't about biases and hatreds always. It is not about groups always. Each of us is an individual. I so dislike the people who think that folks who are rural or who live in the south are dumb and slow. I HATE that. Each of us then and now were and are individuals. Bigotry throws the baby out with the bath water.

[quietpine]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.

Napoleon said history is lies agreed upon. The history of many so called Confederate statues is also the history of return to “slavery” or institutional racism in the south. Robert E Lee became the hero of the Lost Cause lie that sought to justify the acts of treason, slaughter and destruction that wrecked the nation. Lee was an honorable traitor who had he lived would have disavowed the lies about a noble Southern cause that flourished after his death.

[nhtexasrn]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

There are many things about Lee that obviously you don't know. For instance, Lincoln offered him command of the United States Army. He refused because of loyalty to his home state saying he could not raise a sword to the state of his home and birth. Lee was a top graduate of the United States Military Academy and an exceptional officer and military engineer in the United States Army for 32 years. During this time, he served throughout the United States, distinguished himself during the Mexican–American War, and served as Superintendent of the United States Military Academy. Countering Southerners who argued for slavery as a positive good, Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil. It was said of Lee, "He was a foe without hate; a friend without treachery; a soldier without cruelty; a victor without oppression, and a victim without murmuring. He was a public officer without vices; a private citizen without wrong; a neighbour without reproach; a Christian without hypocrisy, and a man without guile." Yes, he was born into a certain culture and that's all he knew at the time, but it's so much more complicated than what you have stated. He and his wife were both disgusted by slavery even though they were born in to that culture.

[marylees]

Only history is "He Lost"!
In 100 Years will they take down the 9/11 monuments because it offends Muslims?

[MandoMan]

The statue was erected in 1890, on Monument Avenue, which existed to glorify and celebrate people who fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War. Glorify and Celebrate - the people who rejected the Union (which was, at the time, what we know now as the United States of America) and fought against it. This war, this Civil War, was the culmination of an attempt to overturn the government. An insurrection of "monumental" proportions (pun intended). The population in Richmond was mostly wealthy white people and poverty-stricken black people. The abolition of slavery only happened 25 years prior, so most adults living there were former slaves with no job, no prospects, few people willing to actually PAY them to work. I would venture to guess that the blacks living in Richmond would not have been very happy to see the figure of their former oppressor be placed proudly and prominently in their town center.

While I agree in general, I would suggest kindly that further reading in history would be interesting for you. Most white people in Richmond were NOT wealthy in 1890. Indeed, there were only a few thousand white people in the Confederate states BEFORE the war who were wealthy, and a large percentage of those who were then were not wealthy after the war. The vast majority of Southern whites in 1860 were poor, often miserably poor, and had never owned slaves. The same was true in 1890. Many of their descendants are still poor. Most of the Southern soldiers who died had never owned a slave. Perhaps they supported slavery for various reasons (such as hoping they might someday be able to afford one), just as plenty of poor whites today who depend on government handouts want lower taxes on the rich because they hope to someday be rich, but they still lived in poverty and dressed in rags.

Meanwhile, while there were millions of “poverty-stricken black people,” the two were not synonymous. There had been “free people of color” in the South for centuries, and a number of them owned slaves, owned farms, or were respected small business owners and craftsmen. This was even more the case in the North.

However, I agree with you in thinking about how the black citizens of Richmond must have felt in 1890 as they saw tax dollars go to memorialize those who had fought to keep them enslaved.

A couple of my great-grandparents were from British Guiana or Suriname and racially mixed. (One of my third great-grandfathers was a Scot who owned four plantations in Suriname and several hundred slaves, married an African woman he had purchased, and left his plantations to his mulatto children. Two of those mulatto sons were tried for beating a thief to death on one of their plantations in 1867. History is complicated!) When slavery was ended in those countries, instead of having a war, the governments of Great Britain and the Netherlands bought each slave, reimbursing the owners, and freed them. But the slaves were required to stay and work on the plantations for several years while indentured servants were brought in from India to take their place. Eventually, the government bought a lot of these plantations, which were often about 500 acres, divided them up into plots of two to five acres, and gave them to ex-slaves. They could live on that in a shack they built and with a big garden. Many, of course, left the plantations and moved to town, even though it was hard to find work there. Lincoln offered the South a similar deal, buying slaves instead of fighting, but the Southern politicians refused, alas. It would have been very expensive, but still cheaper than the war. Plantations should have been confiscated and divided up and distributed to ex-slaves, but alas that didn’t happen.

[lahamm69]

And he chose to be a traitor

[quietpine]

There are many things about Lee that obviously you don't know. For instance, Lincoln offered him command of the United States Army. He refused because of loyalty to his home state saying he could not raise a sword to the state of his home and birth. Lee was a top graduate of the United States Military Academy and an exceptional officer and military engineer in the United States Army for 32 years. During this time, he served throughout the United States, distinguished himself during the Mexican–American War, and served as Superintendent of the United States Military Academy. Countering Southerners who argued for slavery as a positive good, Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil. It was said of Lee, "He was a foe without hate; a friend without treachery; a soldier without cruelty; a victor without oppression, and a victim without murmuring. He was a public officer without vices; a private citizen without wrong; a neighbour without reproach; a Christian without hypocrisy, and a man without guile." Yes, he was born into a certain culture and that's all he knew at the time, but it's so much more complicated than what you have stated. He and his wife were both disgusted by slavery even though they were born in to that culture.

It’s telling that the Army confiscated the grounds of his plantation, Arlington, just across the Potomac River from the Capitol as the burial site for Union soldiers some awarded the Medal of Honor who he was responsible for killing. Taking his property for this purpose was sending a strong message about what the country thought about his treason. And Lee isn’t buried in that hallowed place for a reason.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What people may not realize is that the North actually asked Lee to fight for them. Also, Lee did not have slaves and was against slavery.

Lee lived with his family and they DID have slaves. He was not for slavery, he was for Virginia - which wanted to maintain their status quo, which was to continue slavery. He was not an abolitionist. In addition, he felt that blacks were inferior sub-humans, and their lives could only be better now that they were on the North American continent, and that perhaps with enough time and discipline, they might evolve to be civilized humans.

[b0bd0herty]

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.

Just like over 50% of our population does...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There are many things about Lee that obviously you don't know. For instance, Lincoln offered him command of the United States Army. He refused because of loyalty to his home state saying he could not raise a sword to the state of his home and birth. Lee was a top graduate of the United States Military Academy and an exceptional officer and military engineer in the United States Army for 32 years. During this time, he served throughout the United States, distinguished himself during the Mexican–American War, and served as Superintendent of the United States Military Academy. Countering Southerners who argued for slavery as a positive good, Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil. It was said of Lee, "He was a foe without hate; a friend without treachery; a soldier without cruelty; a victor without oppression, and a victim without murmuring. He was a public officer without vices; a private citizen without wrong; a neighbour without reproach; a Christian without hypocrisy, and a man without guile." Yes, he was born into a certain culture and that's all he knew at the time, but it's so much more complicated than what you have stated. He and his wife were both disgusted by slavery even though they were born in to that culture.

He committed treason against the United States. The only people who celebrated him were the Confederacy - which existed to overturn the US Government in a massive insurrection that most of us like to call the Civil War.

[dougjb]

Well ... the real reason the statue on Monument Drive was removed was because of Traveller, Lee's horse. It is believed that it is improper to show the bare butt of the horse which by this time would have flooded Monument Drive to several feet had it been defecating all this time! Unfortunately, it was impossible to remove Lee's tuchas from Traveller. Thus, the whole statue had to come down!

[Rosebud1949]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.

No matter how many statues you pull down you will NOT change what happened. Part of the object of history is TO LEARN FROM IT AND NOT REPEAT IT... that includes the continual mistakes.

Children cannot learn from history if you try to demolish it, or stop teaching it, and they will continue heading over the cliff along with the other lemmings, because some Q anon said it was the right thing to do OMG. Start thinking for yourselves and make sensible judgements. How about a novelty suggestion .. think of your fellow man, and not just yourself

[nhtexasrn]

He committed treason against the United States. The only people who celebrated him were the Confederacy - which existed to overturn the US Government in a massive insurrection that most of us like to call the Civil War.

Like I said, it was a complicated time with many issues, not just slavery, but go ahead and write your own version of history.

[Escape Artist]

Like I said, it was a complicated time with many issues, not just slavery, but go ahead and write your own version of history.

On a 9/11 anniversary note, the removal of statues by those who cannot see them in a historical context and as representing a past that pre-dates their ideology reminds me very much of the Taliban, who in 2001, just a few months before Sept. 11th, destroyed the ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan despite pleas from the global community not to because they should be seen as artifacts not religious symbols. No matter, they did it anyway.

Closed, intolerant minds filled with ignorance, hate and fear knows no particular ethnicity, race, religion, ideology or culture.

[Chi-Town]

Turns out the statue wasn't the only General Lee casualty.

Hurricane Ida: Duke of Hazzard's 'General Lee' Car Crushed, Actor Says (https://www.insider.com/hurricane-ida-duke-hazzards-general-lee-car-crushed-actor-says-2021-9)

[jimjamuser]

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!
Germany accepted losing WW2 and became stronger for it, also Japan. The south were sore losers that never forgot - even today, many of our current problems can be traced back to the Jim Crow era. I find it strange! Even attitudes toward masks and vaccinations have regional differences. Vermont and Connecticut have a HIGH % of vaccination - Arkansas and Mississippi have a LOW %. And Texas is from Mars in logic.

[jimjamuser]

Monuments typically celebrate the winners, and the honored dead who fought for our country. Robert E. Lee was neither. His monument -should- be reconstructed and placed in a museum of some kind, because the monument itself is an official Historic Monument. But the thing this monument represents doesn't need to be on public display in the middle of a park.

The history is: The south LOST. The Confederacy LOST. He wasn't even very good at being a hero - he ultimately surrendered to Grant at the end of the war.

He led 15 battles during the Civil War. He was victorious in only 5 of them. He was defeated in the first battle, the last battle, and two other battles. The rest were inconclusive, and during one of them, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

There is nothing about Robert E. Lee that warrants his statue being on display in a public park, UNLESS you want to glorify his attempts at maintaining blacks being officially considered inferior and sub-human.
Well-spoken and perfectly logical, Kudos !

[jimjamuser]

What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem? - Modern War Institute (https://mwi.usma.edu/west-point-robert-e-lee-problem/)

How about General Robert E. Lee as seen by cadets at West Point in 2020? The comments after the article are worth a long look.
I agree with putting Jim Crow-era statues in museums or warehouses until museums are paid for and purchased - but as far a military strategy goes (I imagine) Gen. Lee was dealt a losing hand as far as manpower and resources go - and those normally win wars fought conventionally. So, Lee had to improvise a hit-and-run mobile army. So, of course, he lost MOST battles like an underdog in a heavyweight fight usually does! Maybe, just maybe (I can't be sure) Southern US whites and military minds respect Gen. Lee for just representing the UNDERDOG, which is a US pattern. Also, southern whites NEEDED statues to maintain BOTH their self-proclaimed, legendary dignity and to try and STAY at the top of the pecking order. They were probably rightfully defensive about the invasion of "Carpetbaggers" from the North.

[jimjamuser]

I am from Richmond.

All of the tearing down of the city is one of the reasons I left recently. No, not a big reason, but just another check on the Pro/Con list of reasons to leave.

I get that the monuments are symbols with different meanings to the different types of people that live in the city. If I were black, it would remind me of just how troubled my existence may have been 150 years ago, and continuing to present.

Had we decided as a city to address things and let everyone make a case, it is possible that the monuments could have been respectfully moved to a more appropriate place (such as a national civil war battlefield). Yet, we didn't have those discussions and we had a summer of rage where every manner of illegal activity was allowed to flourish in Richmond. The monuments were defaced. A feel good moment for some, and an insult to others. Civility was on vacation and a line was drawn -- My Tribe or Your Tribe.

Richmond is famous for its past and it cannot escape it. Unlike Charleston and New Orleans and others, Richmond is unable to celebrate the very bad and the good -- hold it up to the truth of the past. The original White House of the Confederacy was in Richmond. The "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" speech by Patrick Henry from a hundred years earlier is only blocks away. Edgar Allen Poe had a home another block or two away. Mr. Bojangles was a Richmonder. Arthur Ashe was born in Richmond. The QB from the Seahawks, Russel Wilson, is a Richmonder -- my friend coached him in high school -- he said he was a better baseball player than he was at football -- imagine that.


Richmond even had an opportunity to host the national slave museum and somehow it decided against it. Richmond was one of the top locations in America for the importation of human labor (slaves). It would have been fitting to have the National Slave Museum adjacent to the White House of the Confederacy on grand Church Hill. Richmond could have capitalized on its past and gave context to those bronze and granite statues. Context that might be hard to accept by some, and ever-so needed for others.

Instead, like so many urban areas, the city erupted into an unrecognizable orgy of ropes, chains, spray paint, broken windows, and fires. Buses burned in the street, buildings set ablaze, shops looted. The summer was long and hot, covid was raging, and social justice flames fanned hotter. Interesting to note, the vast majority of the faces of the agitators were pale, not brown or black.

I drove downtown weeks later and it looked like something from a picture of a war zone.

I realized that it wasn't a place for me any more. Richmond cannot celebrate its history, it can only tear it down. The thing is, it all still happened.
I don't agree with most of the content, but I am impressed with how well and interestingly written it is!

[jimjamuser]

Incredible. So, should we tear down the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial since WE lost?
But, in Vietnam, I doubt, that they have a monument to US soldiers.

[graciegirl]

Not a single person reading this thread would consider using other humans for slavery. Nor would they think of woman as chattel or support having their clitoris removed.

NOT one.

We all continue to grow and learn.

Most of the hate we are taught is political and some of our erroneous strong feelings are based in religion, that for the most part is good to have, good to believe in, good to protect us in time of fear or worry.

There is good and bad in all of us. We all have prejudices that are easily perceived by others and sadly some of these are based in real truth. It just isn't acceptable or kind to discuss it.

We all are sanctimonious and holier than the next based on how we were raised and what we have had to endure in our lives.

Sometimes hatred is necessary to protect ourselves and stay alive.

Some people are born more savvy than others.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

You can't make a cardiologist out of some people destined to fry at McDonalds.

Some not all.

The secret to living peacefully is to respect those who do not wish to harm others.

And defend against those who do.

Snotty attitude, superior views and hateful words will do no one good.

Most of us are peddling as fast as we can.

And most of us have value, even if we don't live up to what others think is right.

[jimjamuser]

It is history. Our ancestor, Charles Schorn won the Congressional Medal of Honor for capturing the last flag of the Civil War at Appomattox. He was an eighteen year old kid who had migrated from Germany. He lived along the Ohio river in Pomeroy, Ohio and volunteered and fought with the West Virginia unit. He returned to be a barber in Pomeroy and was patriarch to an amazing group of people, one of them is my husband of sixty years.

Charles Schorn - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Schorn)

He was poor. Many of his descendants became wealthy and financially successful. I never heard any of them judge anyone on their finances. I never heard any of them say anything negative about the South and it's people.

The people who fought for the South felt as strongly as those that fought for the North I am sure. It wasn't just about slavery at all but about tribe and honor and their patriotism.

People who fought for the South were good people. I think Robert E. Lee was a military leader who was also a good man.

It isn't about biases and hatreds always. It is not about groups always. Each of us is an individual. I so dislike the people who think that folks who are rural or who live in the south are dumb and slow. I HATE that. Each of us then and now were and are individuals. Bigotry throws the baby out with the bath water.
Kudos. Interesting heritage and associated story!

[jimjamuser]

Thanks for the good History!

[jimjamuser]

There are many things about Lee that obviously you don't know. For instance, Lincoln offered him command of the United States Army. He refused because of loyalty to his home state saying he could not raise a sword to the state of his home and birth. Lee was a top graduate of the United States Military Academy and an exceptional officer and military engineer in the United States Army for 32 years. During this time, he served throughout the United States, distinguished himself during the Mexican–American War, and served as Superintendent of the United States Military Academy. Countering Southerners who argued for slavery as a positive good, Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil. It was said of Lee, "He was a foe without hate; a friend without treachery; a soldier without cruelty; a victor without oppression, and a victim without murmuring. He was a public officer without vices; a private citizen without wrong; a neighbour without reproach; a Christian without hypocrisy, and a man without guile." Yes, he was born into a certain culture and that's all he knew at the time, but it's so much more complicated than what you have stated. He and his wife were both disgusted by slavery even though they were born in to that culture.
Thanks for the good history!

[jimjamuser]

While I agree in general, I would suggest kindly that further reading in history would be interesting for you. Most white people in Richmond were NOT wealthy in 1890. Indeed, there were only a few thousand white people in the Confederate states BEFORE the war who were wealthy, and a large percentage of those who were then were not wealthy after the war. The vast majority of Southern whites in 1860 were poor, often miserably poor, and had never owned slaves. The same was true in 1890. Many of their descendants are still poor. Most of the Southern soldiers who died had never owned a slave. Perhaps they supported slavery for various reasons (such as hoping they might someday be able to afford one), just as plenty of poor whites today who depend on government handouts want lower taxes on the rich because they hope to someday be rich, but they still lived in poverty and dressed in rags.

Meanwhile, while there were millions of “poverty-stricken black people,” the two were not synonymous. There had been “free people of color” in the South for centuries, and a number of them owned slaves, owned farms, or were respected small business owners and craftsmen. This was even more the case in the North.

However, I agree with you in thinking about how the black citizens of Richmond must have felt in 1890 as they saw tax dollars go to memorialize those who had fought to keep them enslaved.

A couple of my great-grandparents were from British Guiana or Suriname and racially mixed. (One of my third great-grandfathers was a Scot who owned four plantations in Suriname and several hundred slaves, married an African woman he had purchased, and left his plantations to his mulatto children. Two of those mulatto sons were tried for beating a thief to death on one of their plantations in 1867. History is complicated!) When slavery was ended in those countries, instead of having a war, the governments of Great Britain and the Netherlands bought each slave, reimbursing the owners, and freed them. But the slaves were required to stay and work on the plantations for several years while indentured servants were brought in from India to take their place. Eventually, the government bought a lot of these plantations, which were often about 500 acres, divided them up into plots of two to five acres, and gave them to ex-slaves. They could live on that in a shack they built and with a big garden. Many, of course, left the plantations and moved to town, even though it was hard to find work there. Lincoln offered the South a similar deal, buying slaves instead of fighting, but the Southern politicians refused, alas. It would have been very expensive, but still cheaper than the war. Plantations should have been confiscated and divided up and distributed to ex-slaves, but alas that didn’t happen.
It IS too bad that the plantations were NOT split up into small acres. Small farms probably pollute less by virtue of being closer to their consumers - and maybe the great numbers of Black ownership farms would have equalized somewhat the wealth between Whites and Blacks. That could have been a good thing. Today we might have less of a wealth gap and less racism. I believe in TIPPING POINTS in History.

[CosmicTrucker]

I agree with putting Jim Crow-era statues in museums or warehouses until museums are paid for and purchased - but as far a military strategy goes (I imagine) Gen. Lee was dealt a losing hand as far as manpower and resources go - and those normally win wars fought conventionally. So, Lee had to improvise a hit-and-run mobile army. So, of course, he lost MOST battles like an underdog in a heavyweight fight usually does! Maybe, just maybe (I can't be sure) Southern US whites and military minds respect Gen. Lee for just representing the UNDERDOG, which is a US pattern. Also, southern whites NEEDED statues to maintain BOTH their self-proclaimed, legendary dignity and to try and STAY at the top of the pecking order. They were probably rightfully defensive about the invasion of "Carpetbaggers" from the North.

They cut the Lee statue into 3 pieces

[jimjamuser]

Just like over 50% of our population does...
That IS an over-the-top, off-the-wall, and out of the bounds of humanity statement !

[Escape Artist]

It IS too bad that the plantations were NOT split up into small acres. Small farms probably pollute less by virtue of being closer to their consumers - and maybe the great numbers of Black ownership farms would have equalized somewhat the wealth between Whites and Blacks. That could have been a good thing. Today we might have less of a wealth gap and less racism. I believe in TIPPING POINTS in History.

You cherry-picked his comments. He said that most Southern whites were NOT wealthy at the time of the Civil War and afterwards and did not own slaves. It was very costly to own slaves and as he mentioned, most Confederate soldiers did not come from slave-owning families. It's estimated that only a third of Confederate officers, who were mainly from a higher economic class, had any connection to slavery.

It would do you good to read about Southern history, the good and bad, and you will learn that the desire for secession was mainly driven by economics (which included slavery) but also a strong belief that Southerners and Northerners had little in common culturally or otherwise.

I remember many years ago Southerners bemoaning the fact that regional accents were being lost due to the homogeneity that TV and movies brought, especially among the young. Multiply that by a million nowadays because of social media. But there was a time when the South had it's own distinct culture, customs, manners, morals, speech/idioms, etc. even decades after the Civil War.

[JSR22]

In 100 Years will they take down the 9/11 monuments because it offends Muslims?

Very offensive

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

On a 9/11 anniversary note, the removal of statues by those who cannot see them in a historical context and as representing a past that pre-dates their ideology reminds me very much of the Taliban, who in 2001, just a few months before Sept. 11th, destroyed the ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan despite pleas from the global community not to because they should be seen as artifacts not religious symbols. No matter, they did it anyway.

Closed, intolerant minds filled with ignorance, hate and fear knows no particular ethnicity, race, religion, ideology or culture.

"Removal" of statues erected within the past 200 years does not equate with "destruction of ancient statues that were erected over a thousand years ago and, themselves, have historic significance."

The statue of General Lee was not an historic object of its own until very recently, comparative to the history of civilization. The statues of Buddha were carved in the 6th century.

There is no comparison to the REMOVAL of a modern-age statue and the DESTRUCTION of two statues of architectural historic significance.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

They cut the Lee statue into 3 pieces

Yes, because it was the only way they could fit it in the truck to move it elsewhere. The plan (which was heavily publicized) was to dismantle it on site, clean it up and store it and then move it when they have a proper, appropriate location for it to be displayed.

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

He committed treason against the United States. The only people who celebrated him were the Confederacy - which existed to overturn the US Government in a massive insurrection that most of us like to call the Civil War. who complain on here about history being whitewashed are some of the same people pushing the noble cause movement, you know the one that used to be used only by guys with confederate flags on there trucks and has gone mainstream you know like the fake moon landing and parasite treatments for horses can prevent covid

[graciegirl]

"Removal" of statues erected within the past 200 years does not equate with "destruction of ancient statues that were erected over a thousand years ago and, themselves, have historic significance."

The statue of General Lee was not an historic object of its own until very recently, comparative to the history of civilization. The statues of Buddha were carved in the 6th century.

There is no comparison to the REMOVAL of a modern-age statue and the DESTRUCTION of two statues of architectural historic significance.

How people feel about heroes who stand for something they honor or a time they honor is not based in years. I wonder how some would feel about taking down honoring pictures of Ruth Bader Ginsberg. It is all how we each look at things. Some treasure the aura of the old south. We all love certain eras and places and people in the U.S.

[Escape Artist]

"Removal" of statues erected within the past 200 years does not equate with "destruction of ancient statues that were erected over a thousand years ago and, themselves, have historic significance."

The statue of General Lee was not an historic object of its own until very recently, comparative to the history of civilization. The statues of Buddha were carved in the 6th century.

There is no comparison to the REMOVAL of a modern-age statue and the DESTRUCTION of two statues of architectural historic significance.

It's part of Virginia's history as a state and also part of U.S. history. We have monuments or statues honoring those who fought in the Pacific in WWII even though the U.S. later dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and stateside put thousands of Japanese-Americans in internment camps., stripping them of their legally owned property and their dignity. Both were barbaric acts deemed necessary back then, but deplored now.

Nevertheless, we can separate the actions of a military or government with those of the men who sacrificed their lives for their country. It's the same with Confederate symbols and statues. They represent men who died fighting to preserve a way of life. They were proud of their cultural heritage and defended it from what they considered Northern tyranny. Being Southern in the 19th century meant a lot more than just slavery or support of such. Most Southerners didn't own slaves and many abhorred it on religious and moral grounds, like Abraham Lincoln who was from Kentucky.

Empathy, wisdom and historical context is needed when judging the past, whether it's the Taliban blowing up ancient statues that offend their religious views or those taking down a statue of a Southern icon that was a part of the state's history and dismembering it in public as the crowd (mostly young, white, pseudo-radical poseurs) cheered. Not much difference between the two that I can ascertain.

[Hogfan55]

There are many things about Lee that obviously you don't know. For instance, Lincoln offered him command of the United States Army. He refused because of loyalty to his home state saying he could not raise a sword to the state of his home and birth. Lee was a top graduate of the United States Military Academy and an exceptional officer and military engineer in the United States Army for 32 years. During this time, he served throughout the United States, distinguished himself during the Mexican–American War, and served as Superintendent of the United States Military Academy. Countering Southerners who argued for slavery as a positive good, Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil. It was said of Lee, "He was a foe without hate; a friend without treachery; a soldier without cruelty; a victor without oppression, and a victim without murmuring. He was a public officer without vices; a private citizen without wrong; a neighbour without reproach; a Christian without hypocrisy, and a man without guile." Yes, he was born into a certain culture and that's all he knew at the time, but it's so much more complicated than what you have stated. He and his wife were both disgusted by slavery even though they were born in to that culture.
You are spot on. What is ironic and obvious to me is even after 156 years those from northern states are the ones that refuse to let the Civil War be over. It was the same during Reconstruction. To this day they want to put their thumb on southerners. They want to portray southerners as ignorant, they insist that we publicly condemn our ancestors as traitors while portraying themselves as conquering heroes which we know is a joke. They would have never fought the war if it was to end slavery. Even Lincoln wasn’t for racial equality. But the northern libs won’t stop until we kneel at the monument of political correctness. The cause of slavery was wrong and southerners admit that. But you must judge those from the past by the customs and mores of their time, not by the present. Regardless of which side you were on during the war Robert E Lee had the respect of both sides both as a General and as a man of honor. Time will not erase the truth. I have read several biographies of R E Lee. I disagree with taking statues down but it will never change my opinion of him. And I won’t bow to those that disagree. As a matter of fact I will now have a portrait of Lee hanging on a wall of my home. When I’m asked who it is I will tell the truth. An honorable man that could not raise his sword against his own state. Even though he disagreed with their cause.

[Escape Artist]

You are spot on. What is ironic and obvious to me is even after 156 years those from northern states are the ones that refuse to let the Civil War be over. It was the same during Reconstruction. To this day they want to put their thumb on southerners. They want to portray southerners as ignorant, they insist that we publicly condemn our ancestors as traitors while portraying themselves as conquering heroes which we know is a joke. They would have never fought the war if it was to end slavery. Even Lincoln wasn’t for racial equality. But the northern libs won’t stop until we kneel at the monument of political correctness. The cause of slavery was wrong and southerners admit that. But you must judge those from the past by the customs and mores of their time, not by the present. Regardless of which side you were on during the war Robert E Lee had the respect of both sides both as a General and as a man of honor. Time will not erase the truth. I have read several biographies of R E Lee. I disagree with taking statues down but it will never change my opinion of him. And I won’t bow to those that disagree. As a matter of fact I will now have a portrait of Lee hanging on a wall of my home. When I’m asked who it is I will tell the truth. An honorable man that could not raise his sword against his own state. Even though he disagreed with their cause.

A very moving and honest opinion, thank you. :)

[tvbound]

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!

You are dead on. True and factual history has absolutely no correlation to some statue or monument on public property, especially those erected decades after the actual event. Those things were put up solely to intimidate blacks and to help push Jim Crow laws, which is why they are mostly a southern thing. Not to even mention, since when should this great country - celebrate traitorous losers?

[tvbound]

The previous president disagrees with your assessment of Lee's ability.

..."If only we had Robert E. Lee to command our troops in Afghanistan, that disaster would have ended in a complete and total victory many years ago"...

Amazing.

Amazing.


Not much to add to that, as it perfectly encapsulates the ignorance and idiocy we live with.

[024engine]

Let me ask you, what warrants a George Floyd statue? He was a convicted criminal, a dope fene, a thug, a usless piece of garbage.

[JMintzer]

Unvaccinated adults are putting our unvaccinated children at risk. The kids under 12 can't get vaccinated yet. Therefore, responsible adults have a responsibility to protect them in any way we can. Irresponsible adults who won't get vaccinated need to be pressured in whatever way possible in order to protect the kids.

Ummm... Wut?

Did you get lost?

[JMintzer]

What people may not realize is that the North actually asked Lee to fight for them. Also, Lee did not have slaves and was against slavery.

Shhh... Facts confuse people...

[JMintzer]

BRAVO, well said. Lee was a traitor to the US Constitution and fought to keep slaves.

Yeah, that get's a no from me Dawg...

[JMintzer]

Nlie that sought to justify the acts of treason, slaughter and destruction that wrecked the nation..

Ummm, it was the Union Army who went on a rampage of slaughter and destruction... Stealing, burning and destroying everything in their path...

[JMintzer]

He committed treason against the United States. The only people who celebrated him were the Confederacy - which existed to overturn the US Government in a massive insurrection that most of us like to call the Civil War.

Seceding from the Union did not make him nor any Confederate soldier a traitor...

Can a State Constitutionally Secede? | AHA (https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/sixteen-months-to-sumter/newspaper-index/dubuque-herald/can-a-state-constitutionally-secede)

[Escape Artist]

Seceding from the Union did not make him nor any Confederate soldier a traitor...

Can a State Constitutionally Secede? | AHA (https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/sixteen-months-to-sumter/newspaper-index/dubuque-herald/can-a-state-constitutionally-secede)

What would we do without you on these forums! :coolsmiley: :clap2:

[Escape Artist]

You are dead on. True and factual history has absolutely no correlation to some statue or monument on public property, especially those erected decades after the actual event. Those things were put up solely to intimidate blacks and to help push Jim Crow laws, which is why they are mostly a southern thing. Not to even mention, since when should this great country - celebrate traitorous losers?

What kids learn nowadays is revisionist history, and now CRT, apparently. Statues commemorating great leaders and icons were not erected to intimidate but to preserve and honor those who sacrificed for causes they believed in. The South was in too much pain and disarray after the war to think about statues. Those are usually things you do as a society in hindsight not to mention being able to afford to make such things at a time when the South was reeling from the after effects of the war.

As was already mentioned on here, the Union army rampaged through the South without mercy. They were not gentle or kind to the conquered which I'm sure contributed to the lingering resentment of Southerners and a stubborn resistance to change as mandated (there's that word again) by the victors.

[tvbound]

Seceding from the Union did not make him nor any Confederate soldier a traitor...

Can a State Constitutionally Secede? | AHA (/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/sixteen-months-to-sumter/newspaper-index/dubuque-herald/can-a-state-constitutionally-secede)

Seriously? You're using an 1860 opinion piece from a pro-slavery newspaper, as some kind of proof that the south weren't traitors to the UNITED States of America? Wow. Or did you not bother to read it?

And exactly what kind of "property" do you think he was talking about?


From your link.

"Let the Northern States repeal their Personal Liberty Bills, and pass laws recognizing the rights of the Southern people to their property. Let Southern people be permitted to enjoy their rights unmolested and undisturbed. Let them, if they desire it, carry with them in their tours of business or pleasure their domestic servants."

[tvbound]

What kids learn nowadays is revisionist history, and now CRT, apparently. Statues commemorating great leaders and icons were not erected to intimidate but to preserve and honor those who sacrificed for causes they believed in. The South was in too much pain and disarray after the war to think about statues. Those are usually things you do as a society in hindsight not to mention being able to afford to make such things at a time when the South was reeling from the after effects of the war.

As was already mentioned on here, the Union army rampaged through the South without mercy. They were not gentle or kind to the conquered which I'm sure contributed to the lingering resentment of Southerners and a stubborn resistance to change as mandated (there's that word again) by the victors.

" Statues commemorating great leaders and icons were not erected to intimidate"

Sorry, but you are incorrect.

Why Were Confederate Monuments Built? : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future)

[wisbad1]

Really, kids won't know the history of our great country since a Robert E Lee statue was taken down?

Grew up in Wisconsin. Don't believe there were any Lee statues there or anywhere in the Midwest and probably most of the rest of the USA other than the South. Somehow millions of Americans learned US history without seeing statues of Lee. Amazing!
Is that why we have so MLK Blvd.’s in the US? Or a statue of him?

[tvbound]

Is that why we have so MLK Blvd.’s in the US? Or a statue of him?

Let's see, one was willing to go to war and kill other Americans to maintain slavery/owning other human beings and the other advocated NON-violent protests/marches, to provide ALL Americans (primarily blacks) - with equal rights.

Yeah, that's not exactly a tough choice for me.

[Vermilion Villager]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.
Germany doesn't allow statutes of Hitler either....so what's your point?

[Vermilion Villager]

You can put history in a closet but it keeps coming back at you in many ways.

Robert E. Lee was a great soldier and man. Robert E. Lee - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee)
You do know that Lee wasn't even a General don't you? He was a Colonel in the Union army.....before he deserted. But you keep trying!!!!:1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

Seriously? You're using an 1860 opinion piece from a pro-slavery newspaper, as some kind of proof that the south weren't traitors to the UNITED States of America? Wow. Or did you not bother to read it?

And exactly what kind of "property" do you think he was talking about?


From your link.

"Let the Northern States repeal their Personal Liberty Bills, and pass laws recognizing the rights of the Southern people to their property. Let Southern people be permitted to enjoy their rights unmolested and undisturbed. Let them, if they desire it, carry with them in their tours of business or pleasure their domestic servants."

Cherry pick much?

[JMintzer]

" Statues commemorating great leaders and icons were not erected to intimidate"

Sorry, but you are incorrect.

Why Were Confederate Monuments Built? : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future)

NPR? You're quoting that Liberal site?

(see how that works?)

[JMintzer]

Let's see, one was willing to go to war and kill other Americans to maintain slavery/owning other human beings and the other advocated NON-violent protests/marches, to provide ALL Americans (primarily blacks) - with equal rights.

Yeah, that's not exactly a tough choice for me.

The fact that you think that was what the Civil War was all about speaks volumes...

[JMintzer]

Germany doesn't allow statutes of Hitler either....so what's your point?

I'm declaring Goodwin's Law!

[LateBoomer]

A brilliant tactician that was serving a terrible cause. I look at him as a historical figure. A brilliant General. That's about it.

now that his statue in Richmond is gone, are the snowflakes lives better today? what problems have been solved?

symbolism over substance. it's typical of one part of the political spectrum today.

[Topspinmo]

Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA. will never be the same. They have removed the statue. They don't even know the history of Gen. Lee.


Also all 69 charger’s should be crushed or against law to paint Hemi Orange with that no the roof. :popcorn::)

[tvbound]

Cherry pick much?

I simply used your link.

[tvbound]

NPR? You're quoting that Liberal site?

(see how that works?)

Facts, with dates. Please feel free to try and prove the graph of when the monuments/statues were erected is incorrect (it's not).

[JMintzer]

A brilliant tactician that was serving a terrible cause. I look at him as a historical figure. A brilliant General. That's about it.

now that his statue in Richmond is gone, are the snowflakes lives better today? what problems have been solved?

symbolism over substance. it's typical of one part of the political spectrum today.

Didn't you hear? Racism has been fixed!

[JMintzer]

I simply used your link.

And cherry pick a few quotes out of it...

That's what "cherry picking" means...

[tvbound]

And cherry pick a few quotes out of it...

That's what "cherry picking" means...

It was the crux of the op-ed. That's what "Being hoisted with your own petard" means.

[JMintzer]

It was the crux of the op-ed. That's what "Being hoisted with your own petard" means.

No it wasn't, but nice try...

[44Apple]

Robert E Lee... American Traitor. Grant treated him much too kindly.

[jdulej]

Let me ask you, what warrants a George Floyd statue? He was a convicted criminal, a dope fene, a thug, a usless piece of garbage.

He was murdered by a cop. I was never a policeman, but I have to believe (I hope it's true) that most are disgusted by what was done to him. However bad a person Floyd was, he did not deserve that. You can thank his killer for elevating him to martyrdom.

[Bay Kid]

He was murdered by a cop. I was never a policeman, but I have to believe (I hope it's true) that most are disgusted by what was done to him. However bad a person Floyd was, he did not deserve that. You can thank his killer for elevating him to martyrdom.

You should watch the entire video of the arrest. Shouldn't have died but for sure he shouldn't be worshipped. He was a lifetime druggy thug.

[Bay Kid]

Germany doesn't allow statutes of Hitler either....so what's your point?

Lee was no Hitler so what is your point?