Does this seem ethical?

[eweissenbach]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

[blueash]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

The key point here seems that your daughter got full asking price and was satisfied. If the rapid sale made her believe she'd underpriced the properties she would have two options... either inform the agent she wanted to raise the asking price, or decline the offer at full price and have the listing appear to the public to see if she got an above asking price bid.

I don't see any ethical concerns here.

[retiredguy123]

I think your question is justified, but the way to eliminate your issue is to negotiate the listing agreement to require the agent to advertise the house to the public before you will accept an offer. It's your house and you have the right to dictate how the house is marketed. The broker works for you.

[retiredguy123]

The key point here seems that your daughter got full asking price and was satisfied. If the rapid sale made her believe she'd underpriced the properties she would have two options... either inform the agent she wanted to raise the asking price, or decline the offer at full price and have the listing appear to the public to see if she got an above asking price bid.

I don't see any ethical concerns here.
Declining a full price offer could violate the listing agreement, and the broker could charge you the commission, unless the listing agreement stated otherwise.

[Toymeister]

I've skimmed through the Florida real estate statute and I don't see anything illegal. Ethics are not part of the statute. This brings us full circle. A offer was prepared and forwarded promptly, nothing wrong here.

The public has every chance to contact a PoTV agent and have them look for internally offered property...

[Neils]

Use a licensed realtor instead

[retiredguy123]

I've skimmed through the Florida real estate statute and I don't see anything illegal. Ethics are not part of the statute. This brings us full circle. A offer was prepared and forwarded promptly, nothing wrong here.

The public has every chance to contact a PoTV agent and have them look for internally offered property...
I agree, unless the broker didn't act in a fiduciary manner towards the seller. In a hot real estate market, that would be difficult to prove. But, in a slow market, I think the broker may have a problem.

[tophcfa]

Homes being listed on the MLS in this market often end up in a bidding war and sell above the asking price. Since your daughters homes were never offered in competition to the market, she never had the opportunity to find out the true value of here homes. Therein lies a problem with using the Villages as your agent. The Villages real estate machine is an entity of its own that is not bound by the code of ethics that typical licensed real estate agents must adhere to. If I was your daughter, I would feel that I was cheated out of an opportunity to maximize the value of the homes.

[Nucky]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

More or less I would say the way they handled it was as a Pocket Listing.
In my opinion and experience, this usually happens with the approval and knowledge of the client.
I don't care for the Villages Real Estate Operation at all. Shady would be a kind word to use to describe the way they operate.

I overheard a conversation that I'm sure I wasn't supposed to hear. It was the more experienced person telling the newer younger guy that it's better to grind out the units, way more important to get the sale up on the board than to worry about selling it for a small amount more. I don't know for certain that they Were Villages Reps but assumed they were because they were in the Spanish Springs office when I heard the conversation. I don't know their names either and I'm not bending the truth or lying.

I went for our first house through an Independent Realtor. I thought they were snakes in New Jersey. These are professional snakes down here. Document and record everything and I don't care how many didn't, I would highly approve of a lawyer to cover your back. Our next closing had a Lawyer throughout the entire process.

Your age and experience set off an alarm because you are looking out for your daughter's best interest. You are just being an excellent Dad. Good Job eweissenbach. :clap2::clap2::clap2:

Many big money powerful Villagers swear by the Villages Real Esate Operation. I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm just saying I don't see it like they do.

[thelegges]

Our MLS realtor has given us a heads up on 3 homes before the listing went up. So VLS or MLS doesn’t matter, they are in competition to sell a home before another rep try’s to sell it. So is the Realtor violating something by contacting us before home hit the market? Don’t really care if it’s the house I am looking for.

[retiredguy123]

Use a licensed realtor instead
Anyone selling real estate for a commission in Florida must have a state license. That includes The Villages real estate company.

[manaboutown]

Many listed properties are selling for over their listed prices as the result of bidding wars. It seems to me your daughter's properties may have been quietly sold before they reached all possible potential buyers. I even wonder if either or both were picked up by an agent to soon be resold at a higher price.

[retiredguy123]

Many listed properties are selling for over their listed prices as the result of bidding wars. It seems to me your daughter's properties may have been quietly sold before they reached all possible potential buyers. I even wonder if either or both were picked up by an agent to soon be resold at a higher price.
I agree, but the only recourse would be to sue the broker for violating their fiduciary responsibility to the seller. That would be difficult to prove. Otherwise, it is just a lesson learned. The biggest loss is probably the commission that should have been reduced because the broker did not not earn it. In a hot real estate market, I would not allow the broker to sell my property before it was properly advertised and offered for sale to the general public. That is what you are paying the broker to do.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I wonder what would happen if you list with the Villages realtors, but only under the condition that it actually be LISTED, or else you retain the right not to give them their commission.

If they're not putting in the same amount of effort, money, and work to sell it as any other licensed realtor does - then why should you pay the same % commission?

The Villages, when RE-selling a property, are just a listing agent. They don't represent the Developer, unless they're selling new construction.

If they're going to list my property I want to see it on their website within 48 hours, and if they come to me with an offer prior to that listing, they're not getting a dime from me because they haven't given ANYONE else a chance to even look at it.

[manaboutown]

I wonder what would happen if you list with the Villages realtors, but only under the condition that it actually be LISTED, or else you retain the right not to give them their commission.

If they're not putting in the same amount of effort, money, and work to sell it as any other licensed realtor does - then why should you pay the same % commission?

The Villages, when RE-selling a property, are just a listing agent. They don't represent the Developer, unless they're selling new construction.

If they're going to list my property I want to see it on their website within 48 hours, and if they come to me with an offer prior to that listing, they're not getting a dime from me because they haven't given ANYONE else a chance to even look at it.

Villages agents are NOT Realtors so of course are not held to their code of ethics.

Everything You Need to Know About the Realtor Code of Ethics (https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/realtor-code-of-ethics)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Villages agents are NOT Realtors so of course are not held to their code of ethics.

Everything You Need to Know About the Realtor Code of Ethics (https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/realtor-code-of-ethics)

They are licensed real estate agents. "Realtor" and "Real Estate Agent" are related terms, but don't mean the same thing.

[Garywt]

I get what you are saying but there is probably a list of people on a list waiting for one to hit the market so it makes sense to do it like they do.

[thelegges]

Villages agents are NOT Realtors so of course are not held to their code of ethics.

Everything You Need to Know About the Realtor Code of Ethics (https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/realtor-code-of-ethics)

So in post #10, our MLS sent us information on homes before listing. SO guessing your post should be MLS agents, MAY NOT hold their own code of ethics.

We have two MLS agents, that have sent us homes before they were listed. One listing that didn’t fit our needs didn’t show up for 5 days. We are not friends of either MLS agents so I am sure we are not the only buyers that is given the ability to see home before listing. So are they breaking their code of ethics, even though they should be held by a higher standard?

[retiredguy123]

Real estate terms:

Realtor - A member of the National Association of Realtors, which is a private organization that has it's own membership rules and code of ethics. They may or may not be licensed by the state.

Real estate agent - A person who is licensed by the state to sell real estate for a homeowner, and who can receive a commission based on the sale price of the house. Both The Villages and MLS companies employ real estate agents, who may or may not be Realtors. They must follow the state laws and they have a fiduciary responsibility with respect to both buyers and sellers.

Real estate salesperson - A person who can show houses and assist in selling houses, but they are not licensed by the state. Both The Villages and MLS companies employ salespeople. The main difference between a salesperson and a licensed agent is that a salesperson cannot receive any compensation based on the sale price of the house. They mostly work for a salary. They may get bonuses, but their compensation cannot be based on a percentage of the sales price, like a commission.

[DaleDivine]

She got her asking price and is happy. I don't think it matters that she could have possibly gotten a better deal had it been listed...
Time to move on as she probably has.
:bigbow::bigbow:

[RICH1]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?
Did she get what she was asking for it? No news here, life goes on! Be happy it's gone!

[WindyCityzen]

I read a few years ago this practice was being investigated because it violates the Fair Housing Act. Clearly it could be used to discriminate. I’d be shocked, SHOCKED! If that was happening in the Villages. (that’s sarcasm btw)

[pgettinger01]

This is a common practice on the MLS because it takes a lot of money and time to list a property. For example fees, pictures, videos, staging... Also the commission is not split (Shared) with another agency.

[jswirs]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?
What occurred sounds unethical to me, but I am not employed in the Real Estate market. However, if I may add:
I recently sold a house in The Villages, it was on the market for just one day. In this hot real estate market I would seriously considering selling the house yourself, (FSBO). Employ an experienced Real Estate lawyer to handle the closing. Save yourself many thousands of $$. Just MHO.

[irishwonone]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?
I don’t see an issue with how the home you described was sold. In fact it’s become a fairly standard practice in the Florida hot sales market.

[Altavia]

Seems the Villages effectively set the prices relative to the new home market?

A seller could try insisting to list higher than recommended and see what happens.

[vagent711]

Just a FYI. A Realtor®️ is a member of the National Association of Realtors®️ and agrees to abide by its code of ethics.
Real estate salesmen and brokers are required to have a state license but may or may not be Realtors®️ Additionally a person listing or selling a property owned by their employer may not be required to have a license depending on their state’s laws

[jimkerr]

I fail to see anything wrong here. Homes were sold within a week and the seller got full asking price.

[ithos]

Of course it was unethical unless the listing agents ethic is to get the highest commission without having to split commission. In a hot market like this, to not advertise it first so that you have broadest exposure is clearly not in the clients best interest. Just because the seller wasn't sophisticated enough to require it to be listed first is no excuse. It may not be illegal to take advantage of a client but it isn't right.

It has been months since I have seen a patio villa listed in Brownwood on The Villages website. I suspected that they were playing games.

[tvbound]

While I personally don't see a 'professional lapse of ethics,' I can certainly see where the daughter is a bit upset that the opportunity for a bidding war was missed. I think the bottom line here is that even though a full ask was received, there might be some question(s) as to whether they were priced too low from the start. Oh well, it's hard to be too upset if you sell something at the full price you were asking. One of those life lessons for the future.

[airstreamingypsy]

The realtor knew the place would sell fast and didn't want to be just the listing agent, she wanted to get the selling agent commission. That's why she held it to a pocket listing. Did your daughter ask why it wasn't advertised?

[allsport]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

Simple message, NEVER use TV realtors, you lose every time. Did you know if someone backs out of a deal TV has a clause that says they get half of the earnest money?

[KRMACK55]

More or less I would say the way they handled it was as a Pocket Listing.
In my opinion and experience, this usually happens with the approval and knowledge of the client.
I don't care for the Villages Real Estate Operation at all. Shady would be a kind word to use to describe the way they operate.

I overheard a conversation that I'm sure I wasn't supposed to hear. It was the more experienced person telling the newer younger guy that it's better to grind out the units, way more important to get the sale up on the board than to worry about selling it for a small amount more. I don't know for certain that they Were Villages Reps but assumed they were because they were in the Spanish Springs office when I heard the conversation. I don't know their names either and I'm not bending the truth or lying.

I went for our first house through an Independent Realtor. I thought they were snakes in New Jersey. These are professional snakes down here. Document and record everything and I don't care how many didn't, I would highly approve of a lawyer to cover your back. Our next closing had a Lawyer throughout the entire process.

Your age and experience set off an alarm because you are looking out for your daughter's best interest. You are just being an excellent Dad. Good Job eweissenbach. :clap2::clap2::clap2:

Many big money powerful Villagers swear by the Villages Real Esate Operation. I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm just saying I don't see it like they do.
Good points but have to ask why stay there ? I realized too late and sold my place.

[txfan]

She got her asking price and is happy. I don't think it matters that she could have possibly gotten a better deal had it been listed...
Time to move on as she probably has.
:bigbow::bigbow:


It matters to the surrounding home owners who would like their own property values to increase. I agree with OBB, get it on the open market and let the buyers dictate the “new” comp for the neighborhood.

[jmac1031]

They are licensed real estate agents. "Realtor" and "Real Estate Agent" are related terms, but don't mean the same thing.
To clarify -
The term REALTOR® has one, and only one, meaning:

REALTOR® is a federally registered collective membership mark which identifies a real estate professional who is member of the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS® and subscribes to its strict Code of Ethics.

The single most important rule governing the MARK is that it may only be used to convey this meaning, and never used to convey another meaning.

[stadry]

tv sales agents are not realtors, only licensed sales agents per their name tagstherefore applicable no code of ethics exists ,,, we looked s of 44 last w/e- all4 were form- fille-r outers rather than sales agents,,, none tried to sell us... doubtful many truly understand client/agent relationships, imo

[graciegirl]

Villages agents are NOT Realtors so of course are not held to their code of ethics.

Everything You Need to Know About the Realtor Code of Ethics (https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/realtor-code-of-ethics)

This reminds me of someone repeating Masonic laws or some code of an obscure religion.

It is one of the reasons I find a lot, not all, of MLS agents annoying at the least. I don't believe that realtors with a capital r are better than Village agents.

What I have always liked about Villages agents is that they don't "hound" you. They don't have to. People are lined up to buy the homes.

The argument that capital "r" agents have more "ethics" than those who work for The Villages is just very weak and I think it is based on jealousy.

One local Realtor must be very good. I haven't used her but have heard so many positive things about Karol Clark.

[MidWestIA]

TV is not part of the MLS because they do not want to follow any rules.

[rrb48310]

Simple message, NEVER use TV realtors, you lose every time. Did you know if someone backs out of a deal TV has a clause that says they get half of the earnest money?


Back in the day I sold real estate (up north) and if a buyer "backed out", by contract, would loose their deposit and the broker would be entitled to half of it. I didn't hear of any broker taking half of the deposit if the buyer agreed to relinquish it. If the buyer didn't agree the broker would be out, if the seller wanted to enforce the contract it would've been up to the seller to pay the costs. On top of that the house couldn't be sold until the matter was settled. Sellers were mad but moved on.

[Taltarzac725]

We live in a wanna-be company town.

Company town - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town#:~:text=A%20company%20town%20is%20a,s chools%2C%20markets%20and%20recreation%20facilitie s).

[retiredguy123]

Simple message, NEVER use TV realtors, you lose every time. Did you know if someone backs out of a deal TV has a clause that says they get half of the earnest money?
Brokers keeping half of the forfeited earnest money is a standard clause in most listing agreements that I have read.

Are you saying that there are MLS brokers in The Villages that don't have that clause in their listing contract?

[stevecmo]

Hmm, sounds like "sellers remorse" to me. Very common in a hot market.

When you sell, you establish a price you're willing to accept knowing there are fees and commissions. She got full asking price.

Works the same way in a soft market. You set a price knowing you're going to get offers less than asking. You'll always feel like you coulda, shoulda, got more.

It's only money. Life is short. Live it. ������

[Larchap49]

Villages agents are NOT Realtors so of course are not held to their code of ethics.

Everything You Need to Know About the Realtor Code of Ethics (https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/realtor-code-of-ethics)

I believe that statement is wrong. My wife inquired about that thinking she might get a job and was told she would be required to get a FL Real Estate license.
On another note, many of the village realtors are leaving because there is very little inventory to sell and they can't make a living. Probably why they are trying to keep sales in house. Over 250 realtors and no inventory.

[ron32162]

The Villages can do whatever they want they are licensed salespeople not licensed realtors their principal is the Villages not the seller or the buyer.

[graciegirl]

To clarify -
The term REALTOR® has one, and only one, meaning:

REALTOR® is a federally registered collective membership mark which identifies a real estate professional who is member of the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS® and subscribes to its strict Code of Ethics.

The single most important rule governing the MARK is that it may only be used to convey this meaning, and never used to convey another meaning.

Oh please.

[jarodrig]

My “opinion “ is that most list a higher asking price than warranted with the perception that they will have to negotiate when a lower “offer” comes in .

That said , your daughter got exactly what she asked for and the home was promptly sold ……

To me , end of story !

[retiredguy123]

The Villages can do whatever they want they are licensed salespeople not licensed realtors their principal is the Villages not the seller or the buyer.
Florida licensed real estate agents must comply with the state laws, which requires them to have a fiduciary relationship with buyers and sellers. The state board can discipline them or remove their license if they don't.

[jammaiora]

Go with a legitimate agent. She could have received above asking price offer. Doesn't surprise me what The Villages agents try.




My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

[graciegirl]

TV is not part of the MLS because they do not want to follow any rules.

Because they don't have to use MLS agents and share the profit of new homes. Many builders do the same. . People are flocking to buy here because this is a wonderful place.

I am so tired of people saying things against Villages agents because I believe many have their own agenda.

I am not, nor have I ever sold real estate. I just like the way The Villages does things. No one is calling and harassing you to buy their homes. There are ten lined up behind you.

I don't know any of the Morses. The step brother lives in our Village and I have met him briefly at gatherings twice and never had a conversation with him.

[retiredguy123]

I believe that statement is wrong. My wife inquired about that thinking she might get a job and was told she would be required to get a FL Real Estate license.
On another note, many of the village realtors are leaving because there is very little inventory to sell and they can't make a living. Probably why they are trying to keep sales in house. Over 250 realtors and no inventory.
The statement is accurate. See Post No. 19.

[Taltarzac725]

Real Estate | The Villages Florida (https://thevillagesflorida.com/real-estate/)

Things changed in 2004.

[Boomer]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?


:024:

I understand what you are saying. But the market is so hot everywhere that this is the way it seems to be going now for especially desirable properties. Houses are sold before they hit the MLS.

Nucky, in Post #9, used the term "pocket listing" and said it was "more or less" handled in that way. That is a good way to look at it, with "more or less" being the operative words because in the current market, there are "pocket listings" on steroids.

I think the really old term for "pocket listing" was "vest pocket listing" -- as in "playing it close to the vest." But those were usually from a seller who told an agent, "If you run across someone who could be interested in buying my house, call me and we'll talk."

In our Ohio hometown, listings are hitting the MLS as pending from Day 1.

I know someone back home who wants to downsize. That throws them into often competing with first-home buyers. Smaller homes are horrendously high right now and often result in bidding wars.

I was talking with an agent in my hometown recently and said, "You must be loving this market." That was when she told me she hated it. She had 35 bids on a small, regular, basic house. She said it is highly stressful to juggle so many multiples. 34 of those 35 bidders had to be disappointed or really upset.

It sounds like TV agents are doing exactly the same thing that agents in other places are doing -- a whole lot of those quasi-pocket listings.

retiredguy123 makes the point in Post #3 that a seller could stipulate the listing be advertised immediately. The same northern agent who told me how she feels about the intensity of this market, also told me that she has sellers who say, "Bring me a bidding war."

This market is the most intense I have ever seen. . .

For some sellers, it is an advantage to not have to hassle with a lot of showings -- but just want to price it and pop it and get it over with. But that does not mean give it away.

From a sellers standpoint -- know the worth of property. I think TV right now is probably a really easy place to FSBO. But even if listing, I would, at least, put the word out to neighbors first to see if a buyer is out there close. I think the market now does not mean that a FSBO buyer can expect to save the commission. Sometimes they have been known to think that -- or to at least expect to save half. FSBOs are a lot of work for the owner and in a hot market, they should expect the "commission." In a slow market, they might be able to sell fast by cutting out the commission.

Agent loyalty to their listed sellers is not always what it used to be. Fewer listings are making it to wide advertising that could result in a bidding war. That might be just fine with sellers who are happy with the list price and do not want the hassle of hitting the wide market if they do not have to.

Buyers' loyalty to agents is not what it once was either. In a market like this one, if dealing with the MLS, a buyer could be better off to contact the listing agent directly or, at least, the listing office -- because when looking at getting ALL the commission, that's who's going to have the inside track and will use it. Expecting your own agent to have much of a chance at getting past the "inside trading" if they are from a different office might not be a realistic expectation, especially in the case of a hot property. (With TV listings it is not possible to do this because you don't see who the listing agent is.)

I am not buying or selling anything right now, but I have wondered if listing agents are still trying to get 6 month listings. I never liked those. I always thought a well-priced house should list for 90 days and then possibly be renewed. I always thought 6 month listings were for lazy agents and/or unrealistic sellers.

Well, I was not going to look in at TOTV today, but I did. And now, here I am, blathering on about one of my favorite topics. Real estate. I better get back to my real life now. :)

Boomer

[graciegirl]

I believe that statement is wrong. My wife inquired about that thinking she might get a job and was told she would be required to get a FL Real Estate license.
On another note, many of the village realtors are leaving because there is very little inventory to sell and they can't make a living. Probably why they are trying to keep sales in house. Over 250 realtors and no inventory.

I just copied this below from Redfin;

The Villages Housing Market
See Homes for Sale
In August 2021, The Villages home prices were up 21.9% compared to last year, selling for a median price of $347K. On average, homes in The Villages sell after 5 days on the market compared to 24 days last year. There were 144 homes sold in August this year, up from 132 last year.

The Villages Housing Market Trends

Median Sale Price
$347,450
+21.9% year-over-year

# of Homes Sold
144
+9.1% year-over-year

Median Days on Market
5

[LSTOWELL]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

So the Villages agents do not belong to national board of Realtors nor do they co op with REALTORS from other companies. All if their listings are in house only so it probably does not matter.. the listings are only put on their web site to attract buyers but they don't have to be.. the agents are not REALTORS... They used to co op when they were divided into 2 real estate companies like 20 years ago!! But the agents have to be licensed as real estate agents just like anyone else selling real estate.. they just don't join the local or national boards

[Scatsy]

My agent knew the house I was looking for and it never made the market. I gave them asking price and it was done. I'm certain now they could have listed it higher but I was the recipient of the good fortune.

[manaboutown]

TV is not part of the MLS because they do not want to follow any rules.

And/or share the wealth?

[manaboutown]

This reminds me of someone repeating Masonic laws or some code of an obscure religion.

It is one of the reasons I find a lot, not all, of MLS agents annoying at the least. I don't believe that realtors with a capital r are better than Village agents.

What I have always liked about Villages agents is that they don't "hound" you. They don't have to. People are lined up to buy the homes.

The argument that capital "r" agents have more "ethics" than those who work for The Villages is just very weak and I think it is based on jealousy.

One local Realtor must be very good. I haven't used her but have heard so many positive things about Karol Clark.

Frankly I attempt to be precise with terminology. To refer to a licensed Villages agent as a realtor is incorrect usage of the trademark Realtor. It is akin to calling Velveeta cheese when in fact it contains no cheese whatsoever but is a "cheese product".

[Roron123]

I totally agree! 🤪🤪 a realtor has you on the MLS for public viewing immediately

[giorgio1948]

I believe it's called a "Pocket Listing"

[Roron123]

They are not realtors they are sales people for the Villages called Associates!

[manaboutown]

"A pocket listing is a real estate industry term for a property that a broker has been given the exclusive right to sell by virtue of a signed listing agreement. However, the property isn’t listed on a multiple listing service (MLS)."

"Yes, at the time of this writing, pocket listings are legal in all 50 states. No existing laws prohibit a real estate agent from representing a contracted seller while withholding that listing from the MLS.
However, through a controversial vote held at their annual conference in November 2019, NAR’s leadership effectively eliminated the practice of pocket listings starting in May 2020. Their decision requires NAR members to post listings to their local MLS within one business day of signing any listing agreement."

From: What Is a Pocket Listing? (& Are They Legal?) - The Close (https://theclose.com/pocket-listing/)

[kendi]

We get a heads up before the home goes on the market up North, and so do others on the same piece of property. There is still an opportunity for "price wars" but those who have been waiting in line have the opportunity before it is openly advertised.

[eweissenbach]

I get what you are saying but there is probably a list of people on a list waiting for one to hit the market so it makes sense to do it like they do.

I can’t argue with the concept of giving the “waiting list” first shot at an offer, however I think it should go to the public so that everyone gets a fair shot. There are interested buyers out there who have not committed to a waiting list or narrowed down their preferences.

[eweissenbach]

I fail to see anything wrong here. Homes were sold within a week and the seller got full asking price.

Not implying the seller was unhappy, just questioning the practice of shutting out the general market.

[Nucky]

Ever heard of the Old Saying: Communication Is The Key? I think if they mentioned their tactic to the OP'S daughter and she agreed then there would be no issue at all. Seems they didn't because being underhanded seems to be common practice.

In any transaction, if you leave mostly happy instead of totally disappointed then it's a winner in my eyes.

[eweissenbach]

Again my friends, my daughter was not unhappy and did not feel cheated. I have known the listing rep for 12 years and consider him a friend, and she has done business with him previously. He wanted to originally list the properties for X dollars. She and I talked and I told her they should list for X +20K. They did and they sold - everybody satisfied! I still feel it is not an ethical way to do business, shutting out the general market.

[Villagesgal]

When we listed my mother's home, we put into the contract that we would not look at offers till day 15 of the listing actively showing on the Villages realty website. There was a bidding war and it sold for over 30,000 over list price.

[jgmroc67]

Absolutely justified. As a former realtor myself, when I saw other agents do this, I knew that the agent was not looking after the fiduciary responsibility that we owe towards our clients. The listing price is only a target price. The listing price is only an opinion. The whole market determines what full market value is . As an example, that listing agent could’ve underpriced it for the purpose of a quick sale in his pocket. Exposing it to the full market could’ve brought a offer over the listing price.

[Wdixied]

The villages realtors get a list of properties that are going on the market at 3 PM every day. Many times those properties do not even hit the website as they are already showing them. It is like the good old boy system. One realtor may get the listing and let everyone else know before it is known outside.Also if it sells, no matter who sells it, the main listing realtor also gets part of the commission. If any of this makes sense. We got to see a property like that. Have not purchased yet, went home because we were disappointed by some of the goings on.

[manaboutown]

Ever hold a garage sale that is advertised to say begin at 9:00 a.m. and early birds who want to cherry pick before the sale begins start knocking on your door at 6:00 a.m.?

This reminds me of them in some ways.

Most seasoned real estate brokers have lists of customers (1) investors always available to jump on a good deal to hold and rent or flip and (2) home buyers looking for a home in a certain neighborhood and/or having particular characteristics.

The major factor at present is the extremely hot market. One prior post reported an agent receiving 35 offers on a single house. Under current circumstances it seems to me the course of action most beneficial to a seller is to get the home in the listing service so as many as possible potential buyers see it. IMHO this will insure the seller obtains the highest price possible.

[CynthiaAnn]

tv sales agents are not realtors, only licensed sales agents per their name tagstherefore applicable no code of ethics exists ,,, we looked s of 44 last w/e- all4 were form- fille-routers rather than sales agents,,, none tried to sell us... doubtful many truly understand client/agent relationships, imo

That's what's great about the Villages agents. They don't have to hard sell you, because things are flying off the 'shelves'. We really appreciated that about our agent. No hard, 'gotta buy it now' sales pitch.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Well, OP, prior to selling, what type of pricing analysis did your daughter do? It is a well known fact that realtors want a commission sooner than later, and if your daughter gave the realtor the pricing power, they know prices to sell fast, at full price. . . priced to sell is all realtor's behavior. . .

Here is the issue: the buyers feel special that they bought a house before going on the market risking a bidding war. . . read the responses prior about buyers who feel good about buying the house they wanted before going on the market. . .

the sellers feel good at a full price offer, given that they relied on the broker for a sell price. . . everyone wins. . .

however, I always spend $500 for a real estate valuation so that I know what the market is currently performing at, and then potentially advertise for 10% higher, so that the buyer bidding feels like they got a deal from the seller. . . after accepting a discounted offer. . . . or you feel great about getting an above current market offer. . .

its all behavioral economics . . . in how people feel good about handling their money, buying and selling and how to value transactions so that everyone feels good in the end. . .

finance guy

[zuidemab]

My daughter recently sold two courtyard villas south of 44 that she had owned and rented for three years. She made a nice profit but the way the deals went down seemed a little “off” to me, and I am a former Realtor. She signed listing documents with a Villages sales rep on the first one, but it didn’t appear on the website within a week. Shortly thereafter the sales rep called and said he had a full-price cash offer and she accepted it. A couple weeks later she did the same thing with the second villa and the same scenario occurred. It seems like that happens regularly as when you go to the TV website and search for CYVs there are only a couple listed for sale and dozens listed as pending that never were shown as for sale. My understanding is the sales reps get a listing and circulate it internally to see if any agents have interested party or parties before putting it on the open market. Of course if any agent themselves would be interested I presume they could buy it. That seems a little like insider dealing to me. If I list my property it seems my interests are best served by getting it in front of the widest possible audience. My daughter felt she got adequate value for both units, but you can’t really know if the public never got a shot at it. Anybody feel that my question is justified?

If you want a property listed for competitive public offering, use an independent Relator, not The Villages sales person.

Try Kerry Hanson: kerrysellsthevillages@gmail.com

[retiredguy123]

Ever hold a garage sale that is advertised to say begin at 9:00 a.m. and early birds who want to cherry pick before the sale begins start knocking on your door at 6:00 a.m.?

This reminds me of them in some ways.

Most seasoned real estate brokers have lists of customers (1) investors always available to jump on a good deal to hold and rent or flip and (2) home buyers looking for a home in a certain neighborhood and/or having particular characteristics.

The major factor at present is the extremely hot market. One prior post reported an agent receiving 35 offers on a single house. Under current circumstances it seems to me the course of action most beneficial to a seller is to get the home in the listing service so as many as possible potential buyers see it. IMHO this will insure the seller obtains the highest price possible.
If I hold a garage sale that starts at 9AM, that is when it starts, not before.

[thelegges]

Seller could have listened for more money, then wonder if asking price was not met, how long would it be on the market. Our home was sold same day we listed, with VLS. Asking was $10,000 more than other like homes. Got full asking, closed in 10 days with cash offer.

[ithos]

Again my friends, my daughter was not unhappy and did not feel cheated. I have known the listing rep for 12 years and consider him a friend, and she has done business with him previously. He wanted to originally list the properties for X dollars. She and I talked and I told her they should list for X +20K. They did and they sold - everybody satisfied! I still feel it is not an ethical way to do business, shutting out the general market.

You have a most kind spirit. Perhaps I am being overly cynical but the listing agent not only brought you an offer before it was listed on the TV website he also suggested a sell price that was at least $20k under the market value. Either he is not a very good agent or he was being unscrupulous.

[Boilerman]

Absolutely justified. As a former realtor myself, when I saw other agents do this, I knew that the agent was not looking after the fiduciary responsibility that we owe towards our clients. The listing price is only a target price. The listing price is only an opinion. The whole market determines what full market value is . As an example, that listing agent could’ve underpriced it for the purpose of a quick sale in his pocket. Exposing it to the full market could’ve brought a offer over the listing price.
Amen.
It may or may not have been unethical, but anyone allowing a home to be sold this way in today’s market is getting cheated out of the true market value. And no doubt the sales agent knew exactly what he/she was doing.

[sonyaschuschel]

Why did she accept the offer ?

[Skunky1]

Being an unadvertised sale makes the transaction unusable for appraisal purposes because it was not publicly offered for sale.

[Ben Franklin]

Did the TV agent give your daughter comps, so she sould verify the reason for the listing price? Did they list it under list price? If your daughter got comps to compare, I see now problem here as TV's real estate arm is a closed system.

[graciegirl]

Did the TV agent give your daughter comps, so she sould verify the reason for the listing price? Did they list it under list price? If your daughter got comps to compare, I see now problem here as TV's real estate arm is a closed system.

The daughter has a father who was for some time a real estate agent. That to me means she was not unaware and had general knowledge about this and information as near as a phone call to her dad who lives here.

Setting the price for a home is an agreement. You cannot blame an agent, when a price is too high or not high enough. It has to be agreed on.

You have to ACCEPT an offer.

You CHOOSE who lists it for you.

[RVgirl]

My husband and I have been full time in our motorhome for 8 years and are seriously considering settling down in TV. This explains why homes, especially the Courtyard Villas, are listed the first day as 'pending' on the website. To make matters more confusing these pending homes are then listed as an 'open house'.

Thank you for posting this as it cleared up a few questions I had.

[Boilerman]

The daughter has a father who was for some time a real estate agent. That to me means she was not unaware and had general knowledge about this and information as near as a phone call to her dad who lives here.

Setting the price for a home is an agreement. You cannot blame an agent, when a price is too high or not high enough. It has to be agreed on.

You have to ACCEPT an offer.

You CHOOSE who lists it for you.

That doesn’t change the fact that not listing the sale publicly kept the seller from getting true market value. The seller made a mistake allowing it happen and the sales agent acted in their best interest, not the sellers.

[JMintzer]

My husband and I have been full time in our motorhome for 8 years and are seriously considering settling down in TV. This explains why homes, especially the Courtyard Villas, are listed the first day as 'pending' on the website. To make matters more confusing these pending homes are then listed as an 'open house'.

Thank you for posting this as it cleared up a few questions I had.

"Pending" means the sale has not closed. Many things can happen between accepting an offer (pending) and closing...

Hence, they continue to show the home to take back-up offers in case the first offer falls thru. Common practice...

[eweissenbach]

Let me see if I can make my question clearer. I did not think my daughter was cheated and my daughter did not think she was cheated. She got a very good price for both of her villas and the sales were quick and clean. My question was, and is, is it ethical to withhold these listings from the general public for a week or so while they are circulated “in house”? I feel that it is at the very least, borderline ethical. I get the concept that some people have alerted their agent to let them know when a certain style of home becomes available in a certain area, and they have every right to be notified when that listing hits the books, but I think a week or more to withhold it from the public is a disservice to potential buyers who aren’t so connected. It also could potentially favor investors over would be residents. My problem is an access issue rather than a money issue. Ed

[Nucky]

Let me see if I can make my question clearer. I did not think my daughter was cheated and my daughter did not think she was cheated. She got a very good price for both of her villas and the sales were quick and clean. My question was, and is, is it ethical to withhold these listings from the general public for a week or so while they are circulated “in house”? I feel that it is at the very least, borderline ethical. I get the concept that some people have alerted their agent to let them know when a certain style of home becomes available in a certain area, and they have every right to be notified when that listing hits the books, but I think a week or more to withhold it from the public is a disservice to potential buyers who aren’t so connected. It also could potentially favor investors over would be residents. My problem is an access issue rather than a money issue. Ed

I get it. Instead of answering your concern others are changing your concern. The person was dead wrong for handling the way they did without permission. WRONG! :ohdear:

[graciegirl]

Not implying the seller was unhappy, just questioning the practice of shutting out the general market.

Perhaps I do not clearly understand. This appears to have happened because right now there is a scorching hot house market. It seems to me to be that the time it takes to get a drone out to photograph, tweak the property for best presentation and get the listing aired was not altered. What was different was people poised to leap to buy it. And they did.

I don't see how anyone got richer here or did anything unethical.

I have watched local neighbors say they were selling their home recently, watched the drone take pictures. Watched the sellers do some of the things suggested by the listing agents to present the property to it's best advantage and that usually takes several days. (removing furniture, having bushes trimmed etc.)

What is different is that in my life I have never seen such a hot housing market and see things sell so fast and at greatly higher prices than a year ago. EVERYWHERE.

[Yaya11]

Homes being listed on the MLS in this market often end up in a bidding war and sell above the asking price. Since your daughters homes were never offered in competition to the market, she never had the opportunity to find out the true value of here homes. Therein lies a problem with using the Villages as your agent. The Villages real estate machine is an entity of its own that is not bound by the code of ethics that typical licensed real estate agents must adhere to. If I was your daughter, I would feel that I was cheated out of an opportunity to maximize the value of the homes.

agree...not bound by a code of ethics...who is the agent working for...?what was the true value...what is the value of a listing service to disseminate to the public,but instead not disseminate it to the public...in the case of many REALTORS practicing under the guidelines of a Code of Ethics...this wold be considered a pocket listing,which is prohibited and taken quite seriously...

[CoachKandSportsguy]

ethics, always in the eye of the beholder. . . Seller's regret maybe a better description? difference between a contract price and a "public market" price which may or may not be different, but can and never be proven? Possibility the result of a retired person who has a lot more time to think about what has happened? Possibility the result of too much experience in the field and didn't believe the stories about the villages sales team? Possibly feeling bad when good things happen?

5 Mindsets That Make It Impossible to Be Happy (Even When Good Things Happen) | Inc.com (https://www.inc.com/amy-morin/5-mindsets-that-make-it-impossible-to-be-happy-even-when-good-things-happen.html)


seller's regret over a perceived potential process difference in a hot market, yet the seller did it twice. . . and many here are happy that they got their house in the exact same way. . . so now the seller knows how the villages resales operates, and this has been discussed here many times, the OP reads and posts here, and so it goes. . .

people are individuals, but we all have human foibles

[TNGary]

OP,
I agree with your observation. Additionally, I believe the Developer/TV Real-estate prefers the pocket listings to their insider team as it also minimizes comparable listings on their website to thus continue the mindset for potential buyers that they, potential buyers, need to snap up the new homes as soon as they are released. Multiple folks going after all of the releases. TV want to continue to drive that train. Thanks for sharing, I am sure many other folks who sold pre owned via TV have asked the same question.

[Bilyclub]

Being an unadvertised sale makes the transaction unusable for appraisal purposes because it was not publicly offered for sale.

Why isn't the sales price recorded in the official county records acceptable ?

[Boilerman]

Let me see if I can make my question clearer. I did not think my daughter was cheated and my daughter did not think she was cheated. She got a very good price for both of her villas and the sales were quick and clean. My question was, and is, is it ethical to withhold these listings from the general public for a week or so while they are circulated “in house”? I feel that it is at the very least, borderline ethical. I get the concept that some people have alerted their agent to let them know when a certain style of home becomes available in a certain area, and they have every right to be notified when that listing hits the books, but I think a week or more to withhold it from the public is a disservice to potential buyers who aren’t so connected. It also could potentially favor investors over would be residents. My problem is an access issue rather than a money issue. Ed

I don’t understand your distinction between access and money as they are clearly linked. Withholding the listing from the public limits the access and therefore the sales price does not represent true market value. That means your daughter probably did not get what the property was worth.

Regardless of whether she, you or anyone else is happy about the sale, this practice is not in the best interest of the seller and I thank you for bringing to our attention that this seems to be norm here.

My last home sale (up north): house listed on Friday, Open House on Saturday, offers submitted by 5pm on Sunday. Yes it was a hot market.