BIG NEWS (Performing Art Center, etc.)

[zcaveman]

This just came into my inbox.

Mark Morse wrote a letter to Janet Tutt today proposing an interlocal agreement among the developer, VCCDD and the AAC to establish a performing arts center at Spanish Springs. The Developer would contribute the Church on the Square and adjacent property for renovations. He also proposed modifications to the Church on the Square and offered the box office operations for the art center along with the management contract. The change in position of the Developer on a PAA is a result of resident interest in the project. Details should be in the morning paper.


Morse also offered land for expansion of the lawn bowling/croquet courts at Rio Grande, and land suitable for a dog park south of CR466.

[K9-Lovers]

:coolsmiley: Wow, they were right when they said, "Even a zCaveman Can Do It!"

You sure know how to give us the up-to-the-minute, wonderful news. Thank you. :bowdown:

[ijusluvit]

This is very good news! (if your cup is half full). It says Mr. Morse is willing to listen and contribute to well planned and articulated resident requests.

I've never met Mr. Morse, but I suggested months ago that he would contribute toward building a new performing arts center if we residents were to put together a solid, practical plan. I have to assume that the committee working on this project has done just that, and they deserve a pat on the back.

Whatever the details and hurdles left to be overcome, allow me to make a toast...

"To all of us. May we continue to work together to make important community improvements!"

[Avista]

My problem with Church on the Square is its lack of stadium seating. (Unfortunately, I"m not getting any taller.) Would this be a new theater?

[dillywho]

Why is this such "BIG NEWS" but when the Moffitt Cancer Center was announced, the Morses were accused of just being greedy once more with profit as their motive for bringing it here?

I guess I just don't understand the priorities of entertainment over health. Why all the praise for this and skepticism over the other because they don't want to foot the whole bill?

I'm not trying to be tacky, but just trying to understand the upset over the new health facility and yet the elation over an arts center. Both will only make this an even better place than it already is.

[K9-Lovers]

Only a few had questions regarding the cancer center financing; I wouldn't describe that as upset regarding the project as a whole.

Both projects are positive undertakings.

[skip0358]

After reading the artical in todays Sun there's a large amont of money due for renovations. According to the article on the Moffit Center there's a large amount of money needed to furnish that project. I guess if you favor medical improvements your in favor of the Hospital. If your want entertainment you'll favor the Performing Arts. As for what I read it would appear that the districts would be coming up with the money for the Arts Center. As for myself I favor the Hospital. JMO.

[billethkid]

will come down to where will the money for completion of the center come from and when?
Then once and if the center becomes an ongoing concern, what are the requirements for generating sufficient revenues to maintain a viable entity?
If there is a short fall where will the additional funding come from?

When all gets said and done the operational funding of the center at a successful level (or not) will fall mostly to the residents of TV. That could be in the form of ticket pricing, memberships, increased amenity fees or special assessments. All to often these types of projects take on a life of their own with not enough attention being paid to the forecast models for viable operations.

I do not think the project would get a majority vote of support if the residents of TV would become aware there could be increased amenity fees to make it work.

Please if you are in favor of the project...UNDERSTAND... the financials, impacts and requirements for successful ongoing operations. They are almost ALWAYS under played or insufficient.

btk

[jannd228]

will come down to where will the money for completion of the center come from and when?
Then once and if the center becomes an ongoing concern, what are the requirements for generating sufficient revenues to maintain a viable entity?
If there is a short fall where will the additional funding come from?

When all gets said and done the operational funding of the center at a successful level (or not) will fall mostly to the residents of TV. That could be in the form of ticket pricing, memberships, increased amenity fees or special assessments. All to often these types of projects take on a life of their own with not enough attention being paid to the forecast models for viable operations.

I do not think the project would get a majority vote of support if the residents of TV would become aware there could be increased amenity fees to make it work.

Please if you are in favor of the project...UNDERSTAND... the financials, impacts and requirements for successful ongoing operations. They are almost ALWAYS under played or insufficient.

btk

:BigApplause:

[Challenger]

A performing arts center would be wonderful. It could also be a Trojan Horse.
Most of these kinds of facilities require continuing subsidies from government or continual fund raising efforts. In many cases they work for a while when new and then public interest in providing financial support wanes.

I would think that we should have an open mind, but be clear about ongoing operational costs and how they will be funded over the long run. It may be that Villagers will be willing to provide support in the form of ongoing subsidies and ticket prices ,however, this concept needs a good deal of study.

[getdul981]

:BigApplause:

I'd rather have the medical facility over the performing arts center also. This has been a bone of contention for my wife and I for years. She's a nurse and has had to listen to people complain about having to pay a fee when going to see a Dr., but these same people won't blink an eye at spending $100-$200 to go to a NASCAR race or a football game or something like that. They complain about a Dr. making $100-$200K per year, but applaud an athelete making ten times that. It just doesn't make a bit of sense. Maybe I just can't see something.

[Bogie Shooter]

I agree with above posters for the need for due dilligence on future funding. It is worth noting that in the announcement in todays Daily Sun, Morse also proposed entering into a three-party agreement of the VCCDD, SumterLanding Community Development District and the developer to pledge continued support for the center.

[BowleesCreekYachtClub]

Wherever I have lived performing arts centers always seem to have financial problems and they are always looking for "community partnerships" for financial support. Within a reasonable drive of The Villages you can go to the Sarasota Opera House, the Tampa Bay Performing Arts Center, The Hylton Performing Arts Center in Gainesville, numerous attractions in Orlando and undoubtedly many other places I don't know about. If we have a PAC in The Villages can I still go see Chubby Checker and Peter Noone for under $30 and will we still be able to see good local talent for $10.

[Pturner]

I also would like to know more about the financial arrangement and inter-local agreement.

That said, I can see how a performing arts center in TV could potentially be profitable. 100,000+ retired people with golf-cart access, time and disposable income-- virtually all of whom moved to TOTV for it's amenities and entertainment-- is a promising demographic.

I haven't been on TOTV in a few weeks, so excuse me if this is old news, but it's also interesting to me that Mark Morse rather than Gary is the voice on this. I wonder how much of the actual leadership and decision making is starting to pass down to the next generation.

[swrinfla]

I applaud The Developer's offer for a Performing Arts Center (PAC). But,

1) the Church on the Square is relatively small

2) parking in that vicinity, whether automobile or golf cart, is abominable

3) Town Square activities could well interfere with events at a PAC

4) a venue less tied to TV may be a wise idea, at this point

I will await reaction from the newly appointed board of PALMS.

SWR
:beer3:

[Ohiogirl]

I applaud The Developer's offer for a Performing Arts Center (PAC). But,

1) the Church on the Square is relatively small

2) parking in that vicinity, whether automobile or golf cart, is abominable

3) Town Square activities could well interfere with events at a PAC

4) a venue less tied to TV may be a wise idea, at this point

I will await reaction from the newly appointed board of PALMS.

SWR
:beer3:

Well said Swrinfla -

I think there's room for both the Church on the Square, the Savannah Center, and a new PAC, perhaps near Brownwood Paddock as there is going to be easier access from the Interstate and turnpike to attract outsiders to help support it. Besides the 100,000 plus expected residents in TV, there are also thousands of retirees with the time and interest to support all. And we babyboomers are just starting to retire!

The parking in Spanish Springs right now is probably barely adequate for the square entertainment and the Church on the Square - at least it seems like that to me - and we haven't even been there yet during the high season!

[K9-Lovers]

I haven't been on TOTV in a few weeks,

You have been missed; welcome back.

[nkrifats]

i would have to see the cost and plans before I think this is such a great idea. As many have said, too many times they don't support the cost to maintain. Case here in Providence. I can travel to other sites now and when I get to the point I can't; I don't think I would be driving my Golf Cart there either. Just my thoughts

[normanne]

A long time ago, when T.V. owned & operated what was called Augustines bar and restaraunt on the corner in Town Square, they had a micro brewery. It also supplied great beer to all the developer owned places around the square, ie. Katie Belles, McCalls, Cafe O'le (as was) and Augies.
When Augustines was taken over, along with the micro brewery, beer sales in other places ceased, and all production was for Augies only.
My guess is that the brewery couldn't survive serving one outlet only, even if it made great products.
WAS IT TRUE, AS WAS SAID AT THE TIME, THAT BECAUSE OF SOME LAW, THE BREWERY COULD NOT SELL ELSEWHERE BECAUSE OF IT'S PROXIMITY TO A CHURCH??
If Church on the Square goes as a place of worship, could our beloved brewery return!!
Sorry if I appear to be more interested in beer than the Arts or Religion but I bet TV sold more properties based on having a micro brewery than an Arts Center or another Church

[graciegirl]

A long time ago, when T.V. owned & operated what was called Augustines bar and restaraunt on the corner in Town Square, they had a micro brewery. It also supplied great beer to all the developer owned places around the square, ie. Katie Belles, McCalls, Cafe O'le (as was) and Augies.
When Augustines was taken over, along with the micro brewery, beer sales in other places ceased, and all production was for Augies only.
My guess is that the brewery couldn't survive serving one outlet only, even if it made great products.
WAS IT TRUE, AS WAS SAID AT THE TIME, THAT BECAUSE OF SOME LAW, THE BREWERY COULD NOT SELL ELSEWHERE BECAUSE OF IT'S PROXIMITY TO A CHURCH??
If Church on the Square goes as a place of worship, could our beloved brewery return!!
Sorry if I appear to be more interested in beer than the Arts or Religion but I bet TV sold more properties based on having a micro brewery than an Arts Center or another Church

I DON'T think the Church on the square serves as a church. It is the architectural design of a church to "flesh out the square " as an old Spanish place I believe. The Church on the Square has been a place where people can listen to music and speakers.

I don't think it has religious services. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[jblum8156]

No, you're right, Gracie. I took my daughter there one Sunday morning while we were strolling around Spanish Springs, to show her the inside of Church on the Square, and it was locked up tight. It is not used for religious services, altho there may be an occasional wedding there, I don't know.

[MrMark]

Church on the Square is not an appropriate choice for a performing arts center. It is way too small, even if modified, and has no Stadium seating. Not sure what the underlying motivation is but it's a very poor choice for a Performing Arts Center! Why accept a poor solution just because it's "free"?

[golfnut]

Seems to me the underlying motivation is the fact that it currently generates no steady stream of income....gn

[EXYZEE40]

Today in the Daily Sun, under "Local Religion Listings" -- it lists --

Church on the Square, Services: noon Sundays.

Maybe someone has more information on this.

[sschuler1]

They definitely have Sunday morning service at Church on the Square....in fact, I am singing two solos for church service tomorrow. Service starts at noon.

It is my understanding that the church will be gutted and the renovation plans are for 1000 plus seat state of the art theatre with stadium seating. Part of the parking lot will be needed for the expansion. I think that the location was in part chosen to revitalize Spanish Springs town square. Too many empty restaurants and store fronts. Maybe restaurants will return if customers want dinner and a show? It will be sad to see the small concert venue disappear, but maybe they will move their free concerts to Savanah instead?

[graciegirl]

Thank you Sue for the information on the church services and on the plans for refashioning the church. Both sound very nice. The church service especially since you are singing and the plans for the redoing of the church for a theatre. I was thinking about it just now and I thought if they expanded sideways into the parking lot it could be a wowser place.

They....the unseen powers that shape this place are way ahead of me as they usually are. We returned last night and as we drove around today, again, I am just astonished how beautiful and perfectly planned it is.

So nice to be home!

[English Ivy]

What no one has mentioned yet, as stated in the article in yesterday's Daily Sun is: (sorry there is no online link, I have to do quotes)


".... to donate the building and land, which has been appraised at $4.9 million, to the Villages Center Community Development District and the AAC."

"The VCCDD and AAC would be responsible for renovation and expansion costs, which were estimated to be about $4.4 million, for a completed 1050 seat center."

[REDCART]

Church on the Square is not an appropriate choice for a performing arts center. It is way too small, even if modified, and has no Stadium seating. Not sure what the underlying motivation is but it's a very poor choice for a Performing Arts Center! Why accept a poor solution just because it's "free"?

At this evening's POA meeting, a representative of PALMS commented that while the developer's offer to donate Church on the Square was greatly appreciated, that even with modifications, Church on the Sq could not adequately satisfy the needs of a successful performing arts center. He said the seating capacity (1K) would not allow them to attract top-tier entertainment which requires 1.5-2K. Each row of seats would be progressively elevated no more than 2.5 inches--not enough to see above the person in front of you. The 300 seats in the choir loft are currently serviced by one small elevator and two single bathrooms. There are too few dressing rooms, and finally the parking question--where would 1K people park in SS which already has limited parking during regular events. I got the impression that PALMS is aggressively continuing their search for another venue. Their site selection is down to nine sites. Of course the developer, rather than lose the performing arts center, may still come up with another more suitable property. Bottom line, this is not a slam dunk for Church in the Square.

George

[Pturner]

At this evening's POA meeting, a representative of PALMS commented that while the developer's offer to donate Church on the Square was greatly appreciated, that even with modifications, Church on the Sq could not adequately satisfy the needs of a successful performing arts center. He said the seating capacity (1K) would not allow them to attract top-tier entertainment which requires 1.5-2K. Each row of seats would be progressively elevated no more than 2.5 inches--not enough to see above the person in front of you. The 300 seats in the choir loft are currently serviced by one small elevator and two single bathrooms. There are too few dressing rooms, and finally the parking question--where would 1K people park in SS which already has limited parking during regular events. I got the impression that PALMS is aggressively continuing their search for another venue. Their site selection is down to nine sites. Of course the developer, rather than lose the performing arts center, may still come up with another more suitable property. Bottom line, this is not a slam dunk for Church in the Square.

George

Thanks for the update.

[Bogie Shooter]

At this evening's POA meeting, a representative of PALMS commented that while the developer's offer to donate Church on the Square was greatly appreciated, that even with modifications, Church on the Sq could not adequately satisfy the needs of a successful performing arts center. He said the seating capacity (1K) would not allow them to attract top-tier entertainment which requires 1.5-2K. Each row of seats would be progressively elevated no more than 2.5 inches--not enough to see above the person in front of you. The 300 seats in the choir loft are currently serviced by one small elevator and two single bathrooms. There are too few dressing rooms, and finally the parking question--where would 1K people park in SS which already has limited parking during regular events. I got the impression that PALMS is aggressively continuing their search for another venue. Their site selection is down to nine sites. Of course the developer, rather than lose the performing arts center, may still come up with another more suitable property. Bottom line, this is not a slam dunk for Church in the Square.

George

Is this the official position of PALMS??

[nkrifats]

Interesting read. The more I read, the more I do not think this is a great idea. I believe it better serves its purpose the way it is. Unless you take it to the ground and start over. In my opinion it will not serve the purpose they are going for. I think they would be better to start from with a new building. Maybe Brownwood would work.

[graciegirl]

Interesting read. The more I read, the more I do not think this is a great idea. I believe it better serves its purpose the way it is. Unless you take it to the ground and start over. In my opinion it will not serve the purpose they are going for. I think they would be better to start from with a new building. Maybe Brownwood would work.

We can talk about it until our lips fall off, but if the unseen powers have decided to make it a performance venue, than we will see it happen...but I am guessing that they will take it down and build it from the ground up.

The only thing that I can't figure out is where are those extra thousand people gonna park?

But I know someone smarter than me has that already figured out. This place is amazing. I will sit and watch.:popcorn:

[REDCART]

Is this the official position of PALMS??

There is no final or "official" decision yet on the developer's offer, and PALMS is considering Church on the Sq along with a short-list of nine alternate sites. For obvious reasons, they're not going to discuss any of the sites under consideration because that would only inflate the price of the property. I should have made note of the gentleman's name but he said that he's on the PALMS' site selection committee.

From the beginning it's been noted that the Savannah Center shoulders an unfair burden as a regional rec center, and was never intended for such high frequency use. Church on the Sq would restore Savannah to its original use as a "regional" rec center, and serve as a magnet for SS. My instincts are it may not be perfect solution as a performing arts center, but the price is unbeatable. The parking issue has to be adequately addressed. The property is there and only needs to be paved over. While there's plenty of property along 466\466A which might be available, it would not benefit either town square the way Church on the Sq would bring business to SS.

[NJblue]

My hope is that the PALMS group doesn't make things worse in an effort to make things better. I think that the Savannah Center is a great resource for the community in that it provides good entertainment at a very reasonable price - made possible by the low costs for the venue.

The PALMS group seems to think that there is a market for higher quality entertainment than what is presented at the Savannah Center. That may well be, but I'm concerned that this has become an either-or situation and that the net effect of this whole thing is that the Savannah center will no longer be available for low-cost entertainment and that the cost structure for any new venue will make it prohibitively expensive for low-cost groups to be brought in. That's bad enough, but if they misjudge the community's willingness to pay for the higher-priced acts and the new center folds up, then we will be left with nothing.

While the Church on the Square may not be a perfect solution to what PALMS is looking for, I hope they don't look the gift horse in the mouth thinking that their perfect solution will be economically viable. It seems that even if it is, we will lose the more affordale acts completely.

[ijusluvit]

Seems to me the Church on the Square has a lot of potential, especially with Mr. Morse's additional offer of free professional management. If I were in his shoes I think I would make the same offer, because it looks like more of a win/win than any other.

The town squares with their 'eternal entertainment' are a deliberate, costly endeavor designed to stimulate restaurant and other commercial activities. Spanish Springs is not thriving. A PAC could turn things around and succeed, because SS has two big things a PAC needs: 1) easy access to the outside community, 2) food, drink and more socializing only steps away. The more removed a PAC is from a town square type of atmosphere, the greater the chance it will be a white elephant. I'm surprised other posters haven't mentioned what seems to me to be a the most important consideration, and I sure hope PALMS has considered this in prioritizing their nine possible sites.

The three major criticisms of the Church as a PAC are size, seating configuration and parking. I think all three concerns can be resolved completely. Remodeling and modest expansion of the building can create an attractive, functional facility seating 1000+. I don't think that capacity is too small to attract popular entertainment. Multiple performances can accommodate the "hit" shows. Combine that with comfortable seating and the intimate atmosphere and the folks will come. Parking should be considered a huge issue at any site. The more congested the traffic and farther away people have to park, the less inclined they are to go out at all. Show people, especially retired folks, you can get them to the theatre door and back to their car easily and quickly and I think you've got the clincher for success. And there is only one practical answer to that: a charming trolley shuttle system using a priority lane from parking areas to the square whenever there is a PAC show. Who knows, except for the car shows, maybe the town squares would all draw more business if they were always closed to cars, and shuttles operated all the time. (think: Disney for Seniors).

Anyway, as I said above, let's keep thinking positively and working together.

[REDCART]

This email from PALMS would appear to be their formal response to the developer's donation of Church on the Square.

Dear Friend of Performing Arts:

For five years, a group of citizens has worked diligently to build a first-rate performing arts center here. We’d like to enjoy world-class talent such as Michael Buble, Norah Jones and Tony Bennett locally instead of traveling to Orlando, Tampa and Gainesville.

Now, that dream may be within our grasp if we can focus the goodwill and energies of various interested parties to create a performing arts center that has adequate size, facilities and convenient access.

As the first board president of the newly-renamed Performing Arts of Lake, Marion & Sumter, (PALMS) I am committed to achieving the goal for which so many volunteers have worked with such dedication.

I am applying my experience as a former manager for such firms as Procter & Gamble and as a longtime supporter of the arts. As president of the Columbus (MS) Arts Council for five years, I helped to create one of the best arts facilities in that region. The other board members, with a broad array of talents, are equally enthusiastic. More details will be announced in our upcoming newsletter.

As for the current issue regarding the developer’s proposal to create a theater for entertainment in The Villages, our response is: first, we applaud him for recognizing the residents’ overwhelming support for a new performing arts venue. This was the number one suggested improvement in the Villages’ own surveys in the past two years and drew 96 percent support from the PALMS online survey in July 2010.

Unfortunately, the plan to substantially rebuild the Church on the Square into a theater would create a facility that is uneconomical for attracting top entertainers, unappealing to performers and uncomfortable for the audience. The specific issues include:

· With only 1,050 seats, it is too small to present the top national acts. The first-rank centers in Florida range from 1,736 seats (Sarasota) to 1,750 (Gainesville) to 2,518 (Orlando) in order to get larger audiences and thus achieve reasonable prices. The plan has no “star” dressing rooms.
· The design has many deficiencies for performers: It only has limited chorus dressing rooms and storage space, and lacks other backstage facilities. In contrast, a true performing arts center has a “black box” theater for innovative works, rehearsal spaces, practice rooms, meeting facilities and adequate office space.
· There are many design shortcomings for the audience: The closest 172 seats to the stage are folding chairs. The remainder of the main floor has such a slight slope that many patrons would have obstructed views. One-third of the seats (336) are in the balcony, which is only accessed by one small elevator and stairs. This is not appropriate for mature audiences. There are too few restrooms to permit an intermission at shows.

However, there is a better way to establish a facility that would bring first-rank entertainers to the area of Lake, Marion and Sumter counties, stimulate economic growth, and make the region the envy of all other retirement areas in the nation.

We should build a new performing arts center in an appropriate area, with 1,500-2,000 seats, plus adequate access and parking. By showcasing big-name entertainers AND local amateur and professional talent, it would create a jewel for the regional performing arts community. Financed by grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees, it would NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees.

Now more than ever, we are committed to attaining our vision and mission.

With our experience and enthusiasm, PALMS is ready to work collaboratively with the developer and all interested parties to create a performing arts center that will be a joy to attend and a source of pride for us all.

Bob Rutkowski, President
Performing Arts of Lake, Marion & Sumter, Inc.(PALMS)

[Skip]

And we agree with PALMS. You can't make a church into a theater. A new theater in the round with sloping audience would be ideal. Plus the parking issue is a "show stopper".

Let's say Tony Bennett will play to a sold out crowd on a Friday night in March. That same night, Scooter The DJ is playing at the Gazebo. The Wellness Center is busy with exercisers. The Bowling Alley is going strong and the Marriott Town Suites is full. The Movie Theater just opened a blockbuster. The Hacienda Center has square dances going on there too. Tell me where you are going to park for the theater and how far you are willing to walk? Soon every business will want their own PRIVATE parking like the Bowling Alley does now. There isn't enough parking now when the church isn't being used now. Plus the noise from the Gazebo would be unbearable inside the church during Tony's performance. And where would you put the orchestra?

How about a show booked during the October Fest., Mardi Gras, St. Patrick's Day or the Cruise-In. Where in the world will you park?

And certainly we don't want Barbara Vesco and new husband running things. She is the person that books terrible acts into the Savannah Center and Katie Belle's. Don't you think that's a conflict of interest? We don't need the Villages Box Office taking their cut either and keeping the ticket prices out of reach.

We need a new Regional Performing Arts Center on US 27/441, CR 466, CR 25 - off the campus limits.

Bob Rutkowski knows what he's talking about.
:agree:

[golf2140]

Ship, I agree with your post, but aren't these centers always in need of tax payer monies to stay afloat?

[Challenger]

I have a good deal of experience with a community theater in western Maryland. The venue seats about 1200 and is a classic 90 year old facility with the appropriate seating layout. One ongoing problem is that the really top traveling shows cost $30-50M per appearance . All in tickets need to be priced at $40 to $75 along with corporate sponsors to break even. The market is limited at this price.

If a PA center is developed I believe it needs to seat 1500 to 1800 or we need to resign ourselves to a smaller less sophisticated venue and the more modest bookings that can be afforded.

In any case a benefactor or some government will have to provide subsidies and a strong board will need to have annual fundraising efforts.

The letter from the PALMS group is consistent with my experience in Maryland.

[Skip]

Ship, I agree with your post, but aren't these centers always in need of tax payer monies to stay afloat?

Yup and so would the Church on the Square. It would lose it's tax exempt status too.

Skip

[NJblue]

They say they want to attract acts like Tony Bennett. I checked what his concerts cost. In San Antonio they go from $62 to $140 per ticket and it has a metropolitan area of over 2 million people to draw from. Do they really think that there are enough people in TV and the surrounding area that would be willing to pay that amount of money on a consistent basis, year around to support those kind of costs.

They talk about the sizes of auditoriums in Orlando. The metropolitan Orlando area has a population of over 2 million. The Sarasota area has almost 700,000 people. I think they need to look at the reality of the situation and try to work within that framework.

The reality is that we are a relatively small community. For a small community, I think we already have pretty good entertainment options. If they can be improved, great ... but, I'm very skeptical that they can be done in a manner where the costs can be kept within the scope of what our community can support. To increase the cost structure by building a large, new facility doubles my skepticism.

[Challenger]

Trojan Horse?

[njbchbum]

In one of my past lives as a developer of private and public partnerships and another as a grant writer, I feel that the church on the square could most benefit from a combination of those talents as opposed to something as grand as the PALMS committee. The mission would be to solicit something like a "summer stock"/community theatre troupe, lecture series presenters and emerging music atrists. It could also serve as an incubator for up and coming talent of local high schools. Such presentations attract the smaller audience that can be accommodated by limited seating/parking; smaller repertory companies are more likely to be able to adapt to limited dressing room space. Ticket pricing can usually be kept to lower costs for those types of events. The church on the square is an intimate venue that could thrive with the more intimate entertainment events. Perhaps the develper can assemble the staff/volunteers to seek out same and thus generate a revenue stream with minimal investment.

Just my two cents.

P.S.
re the cost of bigger name entertainers being brought to a villages PAC...have you ever seen the riders attatched to performer contracts...requirements such as lodging and meal requirements, on-stage towels/water/instruments/microphones/speaker systems! oy! more expenses that add to ticket prices!

[ijusluvit]

The posts by njblue and njbchbum are very realistic. As wonderful as it is to dream of hosting the most glamorous performers, the TV market is not big enough to support that facility 'identity' over the long term. PALMS needs to scale down their thinking to accept market reality.

I think it is unfortunate that the PALMS response to Mr. Morse's offer completely ignores the potential for remodeling and expanding the Church to convert it to a modern, functional PAC. It's really a formal rejection of an interesting possibility. I would not blame Mr. Morse for feeling insulted that his offer was dismissed so emphatically.

Finally, I wish someone would seriously explore the possibility of using a shuttle bus system for all PAC productions as well as for other town square activities. I can't understand how this would be anything but successful and cost effective. I would bet my socks that attendance at PAC productions would be appreciably better if patrons knew they would be dropped off from where they parked their car or cart at the door. How many TV folks either can't stand the traffic hassle or just don't want to walk a long distance. For the TV community, parking and traffic will be a problem for any PAC, no matter where it is located.

Please folks, please PALMS, lets think more creatively and positively!

[Pturner]

The posts by njblue and njbchbum are very realistic. As wonderful as it is to dream of hosting the most glamorous performers, the TV market is not big enough to support that facility 'identity' over the long term. PALMS needs to scale down their thinking to accept market reality.

I think so too. Tony Bennett and the like! That seems overly ambitious for our size town. Even in major cities, performing arts centers that attract that level of talent struggle to survive, and almost always end up subsidized with tax money. I love the idea of upgrading from Savannah! But let's be realistic. I don't mind driving to Orlando to see a Tony Bennett, Paul McCartney, et. al. Show me the numbers that say a town of 100,000 people can support that. Show me some examples.

[aln]

Pturner.........I AGREE, AGREE agree.

I've been looking at the POPS concert in Sanford & Jersey Boys in Tampa.
Cheap seats are about $125 with "orchestra" seating at $250.

I don't think TV will get a booking in small facilities like the Savannah or Church on the Square. And to build a facility that would attract such shows would be COSTLY and probably couldn't even come close to filling it up.

Better seating at the Savannah is the way to go.

[K9-Lovers]

I agree that the PALMS group has a narrow focus. The seating in Church on the Square could be elevated along with other renovations and additions for needed dressing rooms, etc. Having experience with booking national talent, I know that those entertainers will want to appear in larger markets. They will bypass The Villages for dates in Orlando, Tampa, etc. The bigger the venue, the more income for them, because they usually ask for a percentage. And yes, the riders alone can be very expensive to fulfill.

Unless the PALMS group has already identified a large donor, or already has the municipal goverments of the three counties on board with a multi-year substantial pledge, the large facility they are hoping to build has little hope of becoming financially successful.

We used to live in a very large MSA, and had a volunteer group attempting to create PAC similar to what the PALMS group is proposing. After failing to garner the funding, they opted for a smaller facility, which then became quite successful. Unfortunately, their reply to Mr. Morse did not leave any doors open for further discussion.

[batman911]

Whatever is built should include large locker rooms and shower areas. Then, if it fails, it can be converted into the gym TV deserves.

[njbchbum]

snip
Finally, I wish someone would seriously explore the possibility of using a shuttle bus system for all PAC productions as well as for other town square activities. I can't understand how this would be anything but successful and cost effective. I would bet my socks that attendance at PAC productions would be appreciably better if patrons knew they would be dropped off from where they parked their car or cart at the door. How many TV folks either can't stand the traffic hassle or just don't want to walk a long distance. For the TV community, parking and traffic will be a problem for any PAC, no matter where it is located.

Please folks, please PALMS, lets think more creatively and positively!

last spring i asked the cic group to look into using the trolleys to transport residents to and from the reg'l rec and the town squares for scheduled and special events [parking/crossing streets/walking in a town square is crazy on an event day or when certain entertainers perform]. what makes more sense than using those vehicle on circuit-routes? well, i got a phone call that the org would look into the possibility because it seemed like a good idea...i guess that man and i are the only ones who thought that way! glad to read that you do, too!

[swrinfla]

This is going to be an on-going, long-winded discussion.

My gut opposes Church on the Square because parking can be a nightmare there, especially when there's a special event in the Square. Whether the building can be renovated to accommodate 1,500 or more people is, in my mind, somewhat moot.

Mr. Morse's offer was exceedingly generous, and follows the occasional pattern of the family. PALMS' response may have been a tad more "Thanks, but No Thanks" in tone than I would have suggested, but I must admit to being in general agreement.

I am frankly very much hopeful that we'll end up with a strictly purpose-built top-of-the-line theatre, with easy access and good parking, comfortable seating, an orchestra pit, superior lighting system, dressing rooms - indeed, an acknowledged first class venue. Despite all the best efforts of the folks at PALMS, I am sorry to say that I do not expect to see it in my lifetime.

Major reason: too much money to build, equip and maintain over the long haul! Now, should I ever win the Power Ball, maybe I could help out! :cryin2:

SWR
:beer3:

[golf2140]

This is going to be an on-going, long-winded discussion.

My gut opposes Church on the Square because parking can be a nightmare there, especially when there's a special event in the Square. Whether the building can be renovated to accommodate 1,500 or more people is, in my mind, somewhat moot.

Mr. Morse's offer was exceedingly generous, and follows the occasional pattern of the family. PALMS' response may have been a tad more "Thanks, but No Thanks" in tone than I would have suggested, but I must admit to being in general agreement.

I am frankly very much hopeful that we'll end up with a strictly purpose-built top-of-the-line theatre, with easy access and good parking, comfortable seating, an orchestra pit, superior lighting system, dressing rooms - indeed, an acknowledged first class venue. Despite all the best efforts of the folks at PALMS, I am sorry to say that I do not expect to see it in my lifetime.

Major reason: too much money to build, equip and maintain over the long haul! Now, should I ever win the Power Ball, maybe I could help out! :cryin2:

SWR
:beer3:


Amen :wine:

[ijusluvit]

last spring i asked the cic group to look into using the trolleys to transport residents to and from the reg'l rec and the town squares for scheduled and special events [parking/crossing streets/walking in a town square is crazy on an event day or when certain entertainers perform]. what makes more sense than using those vehicle on circuit-routes? well, i got a phone call that the org would look into the possibility because it seemed like a good idea...i guess that man and i are the only ones who thought that way! glad to read that you do, too!

OK lets keep this thought going, since later posters keep mentioning the traffic/parking curse. Sure the trolleys could be used, but remember, they are big vehicles, slow for entry and exit. I was thinking of the 'stretch' golf carts, small tractors with trailing cars, open on both sides and low to the ground. They are all over Disney World and move thousands of folks quickly and quietly. I believe the investment in these efficient vehicles would be cost effective if they became nightly fixtures around the town squares.

Again, consider moving people quickly and quietly to and from their cars, in safely, covered from our sudden showers and delivered to the door of their desired town square destination. I honestly cannot think of any better new idea for a needed stimulus of town square businesses and a solution for perhaps the biggest hurdle in planning for a successful new PAC.

If I were the PALMS spokesman, I'd go hat in hand to Mr. Morse, apologize for the 'kiss off' response to his suggested donations, and ask for just two more things, a little more help to remodel and expand the Church, and a shuttle cart system to make the PAC and the town squares more popular and profitable.

[zcaveman]

OK lets keep this thought going, since later posters keep mentioning the traffic/parking curse. Sure the trolleys could be used, but remember, they are big vehicles, slow for entry and exit. I was thinking of the 'stretch' golf carts, small tractors with trailing cars, open on both sides and low to the ground. They are all over Disney World and move thousands of folks quickly and quietly. I believe the investment in these efficient vehicles would be cost effective if they became nightly fixtures around the town squares.

Again, consider moving people quickly and quietly to and from their cars, in safely, covered from our sudden showers and delivered to the door of their desired town square destination. I honestly cannot think of any better new idea for a needed stimulus of town square businesses and a solution for perhaps the biggest hurdle in planning for a successful new PAC.

If I were the PALMS spokesman, I'd go hat in hand to Mr. Morse, apologize for the 'kiss off' response to his suggested donations, and ask for just two more things, a little more help to remodel and expand the Church, and a shuttle cart system to make the PAC and the town squares more popular and profitable.

But where are people going to park their cars and carts to take these shuttles if there is no parking available to begin with? If there is a day time show the parking in La Grande plaza will be restricted to those shoppers at the stores in the La Grande plaza.

If it is a weekend show the churches are using their parking lots.

I doubt if Rolling Acres stores will let people park in their parking lot.

[njbchbum]

z -
my thought for using the trolley was to have it pick people up at the regional rec center where there is lots of room for parking - especially in the evening - and then take folks to the town square - it would deliver them to off-loading areas such as the transportation bldgs at SS and LSL. a simple loop schedule would enable folks to come and go via a very simple schedule.

now, the stretch cart that ijusluvit has in mind might not have the same capability as the trolley, but they could probably run as a complement to the trolley system...how about it i - what were your thoughts?

[ijusluvit]

But where are people going to park their cars and carts to take these shuttles if there is no parking available to begin with? If there is a day time show the parking in La Grande plaza will be restricted to those shoppers at the stores in the La Grande plaza.

If it is a weekend show the churches are using their parking lots.

I doubt if Rolling Acres stores will let people park in their parking lot.

With a shuttle system, the existing parking areas near Spanish Springs are in my opinion sufficient to accommodate patrons at all PAC shows and daytime special events. I also think you should not dismiss the idea that agreements and arrangements could be worked out with businesses and churches to use designated areas at specific times. If TV administration asks for it, it WILL be done. In La Grande Plaza and Rolling Acres PAC patrons will not park up near stores if the shuttles travel only through the remote areas in the lots. The bigger, faster trolleys can indeed shuttle to rec centers. If everything started to work, SS businesses were doing better, and parking was still a little tight, I predict Mr. Morse would approve paving over some nearby unused space.
With creative thinking I just think this parking thing is a non-issue.

[bigalibaba]

Dear Friend of Performing Arts:



For five years, a group of citizens has worked diligently to build a first-rate performing arts center here. We’d like to enjoy world-class talent such as Michael Buble, Norah Jones and Tony Bennett locally instead of traveling to Orlando, Tampa and Gainesville.



Now, that dream may be within our grasp if we can focus the goodwill and energies of various interested parties to create a performing arts center that has adequate size, facilities and convenient access.



As the first board president of the newly-renamed Performing Arts of Lake, Marion & Sumter, (PALMS) I am committed to achieving the goal for which so many volunteers have worked with such dedication.



I am applying my experience as a former manager for such firms as Procter & Gamble and as a longtime supporter of the arts. As president of the Columbus (MS) Arts Council for five years, I helped to create one of the best arts facilities in that region. The other board members, with a broad array of talents, are equally enthusiastic. More details will be announced in our upcoming newsletter.



As for the current issue regarding the developer’s proposal to create a theater for entertainment in The Villages, our response is: first, we applaud him for recognizing the residents’ overwhelming support for a new performing arts venue. This was the number one suggested improvement in the Villages’ own surveys in the past two years and drew 96 percent support from the PALMS online survey in July 2010.



Unfortunately, the plan to substantially rebuild the Church on the Square into a theater would create a facility that is uneconomical for attracting top entertainers, unappealing to performers and uncomfortable for the audience. The specific issues include:



· With only 1,050 seats, it is too small to present the top national acts. The first-rank centers in Florida range from 1,736 seats (Sarasota) to 1,750 (Gainesville) to 2,518 (Orlando) in order to get larger audiences and thus achieve reasonable prices. The plan has no “star” dressing rooms.



· The design has many deficiencies for performers: It only has limited chorus dressing rooms and storage space, and lacks other backstage facilities. In contrast, a true performing arts center has a “black box” theater for innovative works, rehearsal spaces, practice rooms, meeting facilities and adequate office space.



· There are many design shortcomings for the audience: The closest 172 seats to the stage are folding chairs. The remainder of the main floor has such a slight slope that many patrons would have obstructed views. One-third of the seats (336) are in the balcony, which is only accessed by one small elevator and stairs. This is not appropriate for mature audiences. There are too few restrooms to permit an intermission at shows.



However, there is a better way to establish a facility that would bring first-rank entertainers to the area of Lake, Marion and Sumter counties, stimulate economic growth, and make the region the envy of all other retirement areas in the nation.



We should build a new performing arts center in an appropriate area, with 1,500-2,000 seats, plus adequate access and parking. By showcasing big-name entertainers AND local amateur and professional talent, it would create a jewel for the regional performing arts community. Financed by grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees, it would NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees.



Now more than ever, we are committed to attaining our vision and mission.



With our experience and enthusiasm, PALMS is ready to work collaboratively with the developer and all interested parties to create a performing arts center that will be a joy to attend and a source of pride for us all.



Bob Rutkowski, President

Performing Arts of Lake, Marion & Sumter, Inc.(PALMS)

[kwachowski]

Mark Morse definitely is getting something for donating the Church and the land. Residents north of 466 are to be stuck paying for the renovations which is not fair since it will be used by the entire Villages and the Tri-County area. I am not in favor of this idea. :sing:

[njbchbum]

bigalibaba, you wrote -

"We should build a new performing arts center in an appropriate area, with 1,500-2,000 seats, plus adequate access and parking. By showcasing big-name entertainers AND local amateur and professional talent, it would create a jewel for the regional performing arts community. Financed by grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees, it would NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees."

Grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees are not permanent revenue sources; and are dependent on personal desires. Without a permanent, on-going source of funding needed to operate this facility, you CANNOT state that it will "NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees."

While your volunteerism and that of your committee is admirable, I suggest that such a venture is best left to professionals of the entertainment industry. They already operate facilities that are close enough to be reached by personal car or an organized bus trip. Has your committee sought out the opinions re the success of your venue from the operators of the other area venues? The addition of another venue in between existing venues cannot guarantee that a performer will want to appear at the new venue because of the negative cash impact it could possibly have on the "gate" of all the area venues - has your committee looked into that aspect yet?

Now more than ever, I suggest that you and your committee have more to overcome than you ever thought you did. Perhaps you will consider developing a facility that is appropriate for the size of a villages audience rather than a regional audience.

[scrapple]

Mark Morse definitely is getting something for donating the Church and the land. Residents north of 466 are to be stuck paying for the renovations which is not fair since it will be used by the entire Villages and the Tri-County area.

There are a couple pieces to the puzzle that I don't understand. I've only been here for a month, so I don't know many of the players.
1. Mr. Morse owns the land and building for The Church, right? He proposes donating it to... who? Surely he gets something in return for the donation? A man doesn't become a bazillionare by giving away valuable land and buildings
:confused:
2. Who would pay for any rennovations? Why not the people south of 466?

[REDCART]

Some ask, "what could Morse gain from his donation of Church in the Square?" For starters, he has a vested interest in keeping a PAC within TV, which has value in future home sales promotions. It's also another attraction to bring business to SS. You can't continue to collect rent from restaurants who have no business. (The two-hour happy hour helps but not as much as a PAC would help.) There probably also tax savings from his donation? After all, he's a businessman.

[REDCART]

At tonight's POA meeting, Bob Rutkowski, Pres of PALMS gave this update. The AAC formally declined the developer's offer by a vote of 4 to 1. Church in the Sq was the developer's best and final offer, and they do not expect the developer to make another offer. There's no timeline for a decision because funding is not in place yet but the short list of properties under consideration for a PAC is down to five. You would think with Brownwood still in the design phase, that this area would be a perfect place to site a PAC. On the other hand that would siphon restaurant business from SS which I suspect was part of the motivation to convert Church in the Sq.

At tonight's meeting the Battalion chief of Villages Community Watch also spoke. I had no idea that CW had a $3 million dollar annual budget funded primarily from monthly amenity fees. The Battalion chief is new but I was surprised that he had no stats or anecdotal info as to crimes solved or crime interventions resulting from Community Watch efforts. Maybe it's just one of those intangibles that can't be quantified. You certainly don't want to close the fire house because there's no fires! He mentioned that there are 63 gates currently in TV, Sixteen are manned (8 24 hrs, 8 18 hrs a day which also comes out of the $3M.) Janet Tutt, District Mgr of the Villages also attends the monthly POA meetings, and is always an excellent resource.

[Pturner]

gryoung, thanks for the meeting summary.

[REDCART]

PALMS just sent out this email:

In light of recent developments, I wanted to give you a progress report on what Performing Arts of Lake, Marion and Sumter (PALMS) is doing to establish a world-class performing arts center for the tri-county area.

We are very grateful for the widespread support that residents have shown for this vision. And we want to commend the members of the Amenity Authority Committee for not settling for the Village developer's proposal to retrofit a theater into the Church on the Square. However, PALMS situation is now no different than it was before the proposal.

As for PALMS, our board is earnestly working on our next major goals:

Site Selection: After considering some 40 possible sites, our selection leaders Joe Borda and Richard St. Amant (and assisted by Greg Beliveau, Reggie Carruthers, Robert Forsythe and many others) have narrowed the search down to a hand full of top properties. Any one of these would enable us to achieve our tri-county (yet close to the Villages) goal. We are excited about the final candidates!

Fundraising: Vice President Bill Hicks is taking the preliminary steps to prepare us for fundraising. His current focus is identifying "Leadership" donors.

As I stated at the AAC meeting on November 10, we are eager to work collaboratively with the developer and all interested parties on a project that could unite the community and be a source of enjoyment and pride for us all.

I will keep you promptly informed as the situation merits. If you have questions or comments, please let us know at vpaabarbmcgann@embarqmail.com.

Bob Rutkowski
President
Performing Arts of Lake, Marion and Sumter, Inc.

[islandgal]

Fundraising: Vice President Bill Hicks is taking the preliminary steps to prepare us for fundraising. His current focus is identifying "Leadership" donors.


Another fund raiser like Moffitt?

[REDCART]

Without a corporate or government sponsor, I don't see PALMS raising the kind of money needed to make this a reality--in our lifetime.

[njbchbum]

as long as this is not going to become a villages/amenities/assessment project, let the group be...it gives thems all something to do. until this project reaches my wallet, the group is harmless...and so am i! ;) lol

[billethkid]

on or the creation of an assessment or increase in amenity fees of any residents of TV.

The ideas and objectives are very noble. As stated in an above post there will have to be substantial government or corporate sponsorship to get the project off the drawing boards. In these uncertain economic times where corporations are cutting back and where more and more government entities are insolvent...initial funding will remain a major challenge.

I also remain skeptical about the ability of such an entity being able to sustain it's ongoing operating funding.

The above being said, I wish the project organizers well in their endeavor.

btk

[graciegirl]

on or the creation of an assessment or increase in amenity fees of any residents of TV.

The ideas and objectives are very noble. As stated in an above post there will have to be substantial government or corporate sponsorship to get the project off the drawing boards. In these uncertain economic times where corporations are cutting back and where more and more government entities are insolvent...initial funding will remain a major challenge.

I also remain skeptical about the ability of such an entity being able to sustain it's ongoing operating funding.

The above being said, I wish the project organizers well in their endeavor.

btk

My thoughts exactly.

[Bryant]

Billethkid.....well said. I agree with you 100%. I would think ALL the residents north of 466 would also. :BigApplause:

[REDCART]

If you'd like to hear more about plans to build a world-class performing arts center for the tri-county area, tune to WLBE AM-790 from 11:00 to 11:30 a.m., Friday, January 7.

Bob Rutkowski, president of Performing Arts of Lake, Marion and Sumter (PALMS) and Vice President Bill Hicks will be interviewed on "The Bottom Line," hosted by Chet Callero.

PALMS is working to create a state-of-the-art performing arts center so that tri-county residents won't have to travel to Orlando, Tampa or Gainesville to see the top national touring entertainers. The center will also showcase local amateur and professional talent. For more information, write palmsflinfo@gmail.com.

[aljetmet]

Any updates since January?

[De Lis]

There are many times when I attend an event at the Savannah Center and see empty seats. Therefore, why do we even need a PAC?

[Nipper]

The Savannah Center can hardly be described as a performing arts center. The seats and acoustics are terrible. This community of 100,000 residents and the surrounding communities could easily support a world
class performing arts center. We applaud the efforts of the PALMS group --- and it's a standing ovation!

[graciegirl]

performing arts centers in financial trouble - Bing (http://www.bing.com/search?q=performing+arts+centers+in+financial+trou ble&form=DLCMHP&pq=performing+arts+centers+in+financial+trouble&sc=0-29&sp=-1&qs=n&sk)=



You are right. The money...to build it and keep it going. Proctor and Gamble has funded our performing arts for years in Cincinnati.

[rubicon]

Willie Nelson's Concert never got filled at $125.00 per ticket. Many full time residents refuse to golf the Championships courses during prime season because of the prices. If you really believe that a PAC is needed then estblish a committee to solicit memberships to a PAC and build it and fill it via the committee but please we are paying more taxes now on stuff that has little affect on most of us already and thr last thing we need is a PAC

As an alternative, I suspect Vesco's are vying to increase their market since they took over for the Developer. Let the Vesco's pay for a PAC.

Be clear the freebies are over as Lake-Sumter, Inc is rounding the corner on this development and really doesn't need to wine and dine you any longer. so what was free will now come with a price

[mickey100]

The Savannah Center can hardly be described as a performing arts center. The seats and acoustics are terrible. This community of 100,000 residents and the surrounding communities could easily support a world
class performing arts center. We applaud the efforts of the PALMS group --- and it's a standing ovation!

:bigbow: The Savannah Center seating and acoustics really don't make it, and to get the upper level acts you need more seating than it or the Church on the Square offers. A larger, better quality venue would be wonderful - there really is nothing in this area, and The Villages and surrounding areas now have the population to support one. The big question, as always, is financing.

[graciegirl]

:bigbow: The Savannah Center seating and acoustics really don't make it, and to get the upper level acts you need more seating than it or the Church on the Square offers. A larger, better quality venue would be wonderful - there really is nothing in this area, and The Villages and surrounding areas now have the population to support one. The big question, as always, is financing.


performing arts centers in financial trouble - Bing (http://www.bing.com/search?q=performing+arts+centers+in+financial+trou ble&form=DLCMHP&pq=performing+arts+centers+in+financial+trouble&sc=0-29&sp=-1&qs=n&sk)=





You are right. The money...to build it and keep it going. Proctor and Gamble has funded our performing arts for years in Cincinnati. But EVEN with their substantial support the prices are still high, for instance prices for the Broadway Series at The Aronoff in Cincinnati for a couple is hundreds of dollars. They have to rely on many patrons to buy season tickets to keep it afloat and to commit to the performances. It isn't simple math and more than money really. Most of us are not in our peak earning time.

http://cincinnati.broadway.com/

[Tweety Bird]

My problem with Church on the Square is its lack of stadium seating. (Unfortunately, I"m not getting any taller.) Would this be a new theater?

Get yourself a booster seat. :1rotfl: No seriously, I agree.

[Uptown Girl]

The big question, as always, is financing.

Exactly.
Wonder why this (two year old) thread was resurrected?

[jflynn1]

will come down to where will the money for completion of the center come from and when?
Then once and if the center becomes an ongoing concern, what are the requirements for generating sufficient revenues to maintain a viable entity?
If there is a short fall where will the additional funding come from?

When all gets said and done the operational funding of the center at a successful level (or not) will fall mostly to the residents of TV. That could be in the form of ticket pricing, memberships, increased amenity fees or special assessments. All to often these types of projects take on a life of their own with not enough attention being paid to the forecast models for viable operations.

I do not think the project would get a majority vote of support if the residents of TV would become aware there could be increased amenity fees to make it work.

Please if you are in favor of the project...UNDERSTAND... the financials, impacts and requirements for successful ongoing operations. They are almost ALWAYS under played or insufficient.

btkWell said. Believe it when you see it. ......

[mickey100]

Exactly.
Wonder why this (two year old) thread was resurrected?

I imagine because the Developer had made an offer that was recently rejected for a variety of reasons.

Back to financials - its pretty common for anything relating to the arts to be partially funded by benefactors. Events at the Kennedy Center, Public Television, high quality shows on network television, you name it. Perhaps the committee has a line on this type of contribution. Given the ultra wealthy people connected to the thoroughbred industry, and Ocala being horse capital of the world, it doesn't take much to connect the dots.

[tommy steam]

This is very good news! (if your cup is half full). It says Mr. Morse is willing to listen and contribute to well planned and articulated resident requests.

I've never met Mr. Morse, but I suggested months ago that he would contribute toward building a new performing arts center if we residents were to put together a solid, practical plan. I have to assume that the committee working on this project has done just that, and they deserve a pat on the back.

Whatever the details and hurdles left to be overcome, allow me to make a toast...

"To all of us. May we continue to work together to make important community improvements!"
If this is built , who will fund the operating cost of this ? Will it be self sustaining ? What will it cost a year to operate a performing arts center?

[tommy steam]

bigalibaba, you wrote -

"We should build a new performing arts center in an appropriate area, with 1,500-2,000 seats, plus adequate access and parking. By showcasing big-name entertainers AND local amateur and professional talent, it would create a jewel for the regional performing arts community. Financed by grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees, it would NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees."

Grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees are not permanent revenue sources; and are dependent on personal desires. Without a permanent, on-going source of funding needed to operate this facility, you CANNOT state that it will "NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees."

While your volunteerism and that of your committee is admirable, I suggest that such a venture is best left to professionals of the entertainment industry. They already operate facilities that are close enough to be reached by personal car or an organized bus trip. Has your committee sought out the opinions re the success of your venue from the operators of the other area venues? The addition of another venue in between existing venues cannot guarantee that a performer will want to appear at the new venue because of the negative cash impact it could possibly have on the "gate" of all the area venues - has your committee looked into that aspect yet?

Now more than ever, I suggest that you and your committee have more to overcome than you ever thought you did. Perhaps you will consider developing a facility that is appropriate for the size of a villages audience rather than a regional audience.

:BigApplause::BigApplause:

[jblum315]

I'll believe it when they put tickets on sale at the box office

[graciegirl]

That was negative. I took it down.

Instead a wish for A blessed and Happy Easter and hope for peace, love, and enough bucks to sustain us all.

[mickey100]

If this is built , who will fund the operating cost of this ? Will it be self sustaining ? What will it cost a year to operate a performing arts center?

I would guess that the PAC will do or has done an economic viability study, or they wouldn't be moving forward with the project. Important to remember as well, although you may not be interested in attending, many, probably in the thousands have said they would. This is about investing in The Villages and making it more attractive to a wide range of inhabitants. With the growth of The Villages and surrounding areas, there needs to be this type of entertainment option available, and not an hour and a half drive away. I see no problem with partial funding from a taxpayer referendum or some sort of entertainment/tourist tax. It will add to the growth of the area and provide jobs. When you build a city, as the Morses have done, you need to do more than just build homes. You need to provide amenities that people used to living in cities can enjoy - it will enhance our quality of life and will keep The Villages an attractive retirement option down the road, when home buildout has been completed.

[mulligan]

Not to be negative, I see a couple of flaws in the idea of a PAC. There would have to be several events each week to provide the cash flow for normal building maintenance, sound/lighting periodic upgrades, and advertising budget. In addition, a lot of venues have a mileage radius exclusion in their contracts EG: if Lady GAGA does a concert in Orlando, she is not allowed to do another within a given distance. With Orlando and Tampa so close, I see this as a problem.

[graciegirl]

You are right, as usual, Mulligan and I did type something but said to myself.....Don't be a snot, Grace Helene. This is Easter.

[mulligan]

Happy Easter, Gracie. When I run for mayor, you'll run my campaign.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

This "news" came into someone's inbox two and a half years ago and we have yet to see anything about it. I can't see a 10,000 seat PAC happening here at any time.
I think that some people think that the Villages is bigger than it is. Yes, 100,000 is a lot of people but large PACs (and major sports teams) are usually in population centers with a million or more people.
Additionally, the Villages shrinks by a good bit in the summertime when most of the big name acts are touring.
As far a major sports teams, think about the fact that places like Detroit and Boston are considered small markets. The New England Patriots changed their name from the Boston Patriots and moved halfway between Boston and Providence, RI in order to draw enough fans.
I used to work in Brockton, MA, a city of 100,000 people 20 miles south of Boston. They have a non affiliated minor league baseball team, The Brockton Rox. Their park holds less than 10,000 people. They do have some concerts there, but they are lesser known or older acts.
They had a CBA basketball team there at one time and the city couldn't support it.
In my opinion, one hundred thousand people is just not enough to support the kind of facilities that you're talking about here. We are just a bit too close to Orlando.

[Bogie Shooter]

Willie Nelson's Concert never got filled at $125.00 per ticket. Many full time residents refuse to golf the Championships courses during prime season because of the prices. If you really believe that a PAC is needed then estblish a committee to solicit memberships to a PAC and build it and fill it via the committee but please we are paying more taxes now on stuff that has little affect on most of us already and thr last thing we need is a PAC

As an alternative, I suspect Vesco's are vying to increase their market since they took over for the Developer. Let the Vesco's pay for a PAC.

Be clear the freebies are over as Lake-Sumter, Inc is rounding the corner on this development and really doesn't need to wine and dine you any longer. so what was free will now come with a price

The Nelson Concert was sold out............tried to buy tickets and none were available.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The Nelson Concert was sold out............tried to buy tickets and none were available.

You're talking about 850 people vs 10,000.

[zonerboy]

Many performances at Savannah Center are sold out despite the fact that the folding chairs are uncomfortable and because the floor is flat the view of the performers is often blocked by the heads of persons on front of you.
We may not need a full fledged performing arts center. But a venue the size of Savannah but with a sloping type floor and permanent seating should not be unaffordable. It's just like a movie theater, only bigger. Many colleges or universities have large lecture halls of this capacity. And the population base is smaller than the Villages.
Why would this not work.

[Bogie Shooter]

You're talking about 850 people vs 10,000.

Yes, I know that. Was just pointing out that it had sold out......previously posted it did not.

[graciegirl]

Many performances at Savannah Center are sold out despite the fact that the folding chairs are uncomfortable and because the floor is flat the view of the performers is often blocked by the heads of persons on front of you.
We may not need a full fledged performing arts center. But a venue the size of Savannah but with a sloping type floor and permanent seating should not be unaffordable. It's just like a movie theater, only bigger. Many colleges or universities have large lecture halls of this capacity. And the population base is smaller than the Villages.
Why would this not work.

THAT is what Mark Morse offered the committee and he was turned down. He was going to do that and enlarge the church on the square if I read all this stuff correctly.

Good enough is sometimes Good Enough.

As you can see I am a fiscal conservative.

[REDCART]

An old boss used to say, "Never let perfect get in the way of better!" IMHO, the proposed retrofit of Church on the Square would have been better than the Savannah Center. Was it a perfect solution? No! And the residents would have had their regional rec center returned to them for its original purpose. As it turned out, we'll get nothing like PALMS in our lifetime. The Savannah Center was fine when TV was at 50-60K but we'll soon be over 100K. If the demand is really there Vesco may ultimately decide to schedule a show for four performances instead of two. Doesn't appear that Willie Nelson is selling out the house in April but that may stem from less demand after April 1st or as others have said, the cost of the tickets.

[njbchbum]

The Savannah Center can hardly be described as a performing arts center. The seats and acoustics are terrible. This community of 100,000 residents and the surrounding communities could easily support a world
class performing arts center. We applaud the efforts of the PALMS group --- and it's a standing ovation!

nipper - would you still applaud the efforts if having a pac meant an increase in your amenities fee or an annual special assessment in order to keep it operational?

[Challenger]

From my experience virtually all PACs are money pits requiring government bail out or subsidies. Be ready for higher fees or taxes." There's no such thing as a free lunch"

[Villages Kahuna]

I thought Mark Morse made the proposal for the construction of a performing arts center, expanding the Church on the Square and utilizing the "park" next door for expansion. I thought the plan was to expand the capacity, improve the staging, lifghting and acoustics, provide for more comfortable stadium seating, etc.

As I'm recalling, the Amenities Committee for the area north of CR 466 was to be a party to the interlocal agreement, and they voted the proposal down. If I'm recalling correctly, the AAC didn't want to sacrifice the COS in favor of a PAC.

Now the Morse proposal has resurfaced. If I'm reading it correctly, the AAC isn't included as a party to the interlocal agreement, therefore won't be able to veto the proposal.

Am I understanding this correctly?

[graciegirl]

I thought Mark Morse made the proposal for the construction of a performing arts center, expanding the Church on the Square and utilizing the "park" next door for expansion. I thought the plan was to expand the capacity, improve the staging, lifghting and acoustics, provide for more comfortable stadium seating, etc.

As I'm recalling, the Amenities Committee for the area north of CR 466 was to be a party to the interlocal agreement, and they voted the proposal down. If I'm recalling correctly, the AAC didn't want to sacrifice the COS in favor of a PAC.

Now the Morse proposal has resurfaced. If I'm reading it correctly, the AAC isn't included as a party to the interlocal agreement, therefore won't be able to veto the proposal.

Am I understanding this correctly?

I don't think there is a NEW proposal. I think young Mr. Morse only made one. It was turned down, and we are doing what old people do a lot...talk about it and beat it to death.

[Villages Kahuna]

I don't think there is a NEW proposal. I think young Mr. Morse only made one. It was turned down, and we are doing what old people do a lot...talk about it and beat it to death.That would be too bad. As hard as the PALMS group has worked, I'd be willing to bet that the first performance in any new performing arts center to be built under their auspices won't happen in my lifetime. I thought I saw one report of a study they did saying that to get reasonably good acts in a new PAC, the ticket prices would have to be in the fifty dollar range. If that's the case, there'll be a whole lot of people asking their friends how the act was the night before. I know there are very few acts that I'd pay fifty bucks a seat to see.