Southwest Airlines cancels 1,800 flights

[SkBlogW]

They are trying to blame it on bad weather but other airlines did not have large numbers of cancellations.

The disparity between Southwest’s operation and other airlines fueled speculation on social media that employees were calling out sick, with some suggesting it was in protest of a Covid vaccine mandate. Southwest said that was not the cause of the mass flight cancellations.

Southwest Airlines cancels 1,800 flights, blaming weather and staffing (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/10/southwest-airlines-cancels-1000-more-flights-as-disruptions-mount.html)

Appatrently the pilots are unhappy with the vax mandate but can't say so officially through their union because such a walkout would be illegal. This could easily spread to other airlines, I wouldn't want to be booked on flights right now.

[Velvet]

This puzzles me. When I was taking flying lessons I met several pilots and they all invariably showed good judgement. I wonder where did that judgment go with respect to vaccines?

[Trayderjoe]

This puzzles me. When I was taking flying lessons I met several pilots and they all invariably showed good judgement. I wonder where did that judgment go with respect to vaccines?

Why assume that it is anti-vaccine? Perhaps it is anti-mandate? There are a lot of health care workers (and other first responders) nationally who are refusing the vaccine despite the threat of job loss. Beaumont Health (https://careers.beaumont.org/) in Michigan for example, is offering a 10K sign-on bonus to cover staffing shortages.

So if the pilots are anti-vaccine and not anti-mandate, then perhaps the health care workers who are refusing the vaccine are anti-vaccine, and not anti-mandate as well. If health care workers are anti-vaccine, then perhaps they know something that should cause pause for others?

[Stu from NYC]

Glad we were not flying to go on a cruise now.

[tophcfa]

This puzzles me. When I was taking flying lessons I met several pilots and they all invariably showed good judgement. I wonder where did that judgment go with respect to vaccines?

Good point, and who in their right mind would want to get on a plane anyways if it is being flown by someone with such poor judgement. I support the mandate, but wish the mandate would also include all passengers so we could get comfortable flying again.

[coralway]

A couple of investment advisers I follow, are saying LUV is a strong buy now.

[tophcfa]

A couple of investment advisers I follow, are saying LUV is a strong buy now.

I hope they get their $hit together, we have almost a half million frequent flier miles waiting to be cashed in on trips back and forth between our homes.

[Garywt]

I can’t fly anyway but will be driving down nextMonday. Can’t wait, hoping to make our 20 hour ride more like 18 hours but we shall see.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm a bit confused by news "reporting" of this, and the surprise of people learning about this. Southwest Airlines announced back in November 2020 that they were going to be doing a bunch of layoffs and changing their schedules around. They announced it again in December.

In August of this year (2 months ago) they announced they'd be cutting flights and laying off more people through November 5.

It was an announced thing, it's not a "gotcha" situation, conspiracy, or coverup at all.

[SkBlogW]

I'm a bit confused by news "reporting" of this, and the surprise of people learning about this. Southwest Airlines announced back in November 2020 that they were going to be doing a bunch of layoffs and changing their schedules around. They announced it again in December.

In August of this year (2 months ago) they announced they'd be cutting flights and laying off more people through November 5.

It was an announced thing, it's not a "gotcha" situation, conspiracy, or coverup at all.

LOL They cancelled 1800 flights in two days, stranding tens of thousands of paying customers and causing a huge ripple effect with other airlines, and you think this was "just planned cutbacks" Too funny

[SkBlogW]

Good point, and who in their right mind would want to get on a plane anyways if it is being flown by someone with such poor judgement. I support the mandate, but wish the mandate would also include all passengers so we could get comfortable flying again.

You do understand that there are probably over 100 million Americans who have survived covid and have stronger and longer immunity than the fully vaccinated right?

I'd rather get on a plane with 100% verified covid survivors than fully vaccinated people. The CDC measured breakthrough cases in Los Angeles and 25% of all cases were breakthroughs of fully vaccinated people. I don't like those odds in an aluminum tube packed cheek to jowl with potential carriers.

[Trayderjoe]

Good point, and who in their right mind would want to get on a plane anyways if it is being flown by someone with such poor judgement. I support the mandate, but wish the mandate would also include all passengers so we could get comfortable flying again.

I am not sure why, if an average passenger is vaccinated and is wearing a mask, which is required in US airports and on US flights (including chartered flights), there would be a lack of comfort in flying? The flight attendants wear masks for the entire flight and I have only seen a pilot leave the cockpit to use a forward restroom, not engaging with the passengers during the flight. So then, does the vaccine work and does masking help prevent the spread of Covid? If they do, then it would seem flying might be uncomfortable for some, Covid or not. Should they not work, then why require them?

[Sabella]

This puzzles me. When I was taking flying lessons I met several pilots and they all invariably showed good judgement. I wonder where did that judgment go with respect to vaccines?

No one knows( medical, scientists, microbiologists, virologists etc) the long or short term effects from the vaccine. P.S. why are all the medical trials on medications done by the COMPANY that makes them? This seems like a big problem to me.

[Two Bills]

I do not know the full facts regarding S.W. Airlines problems, but the fact I do know is, the OP has only ever posted threads that are guaranteed to turn political, and stir up the same old anti-vaccine argument.
He is an Agent Provocateur of the first order!

[PugMom]

NEWS6 reporting Southwest is being sued by employess over mandates. they didn't say which, but gave the impression it was referring to the vax

[ThirdOfFive]

They are trying to blame it on bad weather but other airlines did not have large numbers of cancellations.

The disparity between Southwest’s operation and other airlines fueled speculation on social media that employees were calling out sick, with some suggesting it was in protest of a Covid vaccine mandate. Southwest said that was not the cause of the mass flight cancellations.

Southwest Airlines cancels 1,800 flights, blaming weather and staffing (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/10/southwest-airlines-cancels-1000-more-flights-as-disruptions-mount.html)

Appatrently the pilots are unhappy with the vax mandate but can't say so officially through their union because such a walkout would be illegal. This could easily spread to other airlines, I wouldn't want to be booked on flights right now.
This is PRECISELY why this is happening. The Southwest pilots are protesting the vaccine mandate (not the vaccine). In my opinion mainstream media is frantic to keep this from being well-known (organized resistance and all that) but the Internet has numerous pictures of Southwest Airlines airplanes parked and flying the "Don't Tread On Me" flag. Rumor has it as well this will (perhaps already has) include other airlines as well.

Kudos to those brave men and women. We have been sheep long enough.

[SkBlogW]

I do not know the full facts regarding S.W. Airlines problems, but the fact I do know is, the OP has only ever posted threads that are guaranteed to turn political, and stir up the same old anti-vaccine argument.
He is an Agent Provocateur of the first order!

I'd flag this post but it is too ridiculous to make diasappear.

I have had Moderna shots 1 & 2 eight months ago, and a third shot a few weeks ago so explain to the class how I am anti vax.

I think the vaccine MANDATES are silly and ill advised. Forcing people to inject something they may not need is wrong. They could be one of 100 million who have stronger immunity than the vaccinated because they survived covid allready. Or maybe they are not old and obese or immunocompromised and just don't fear this virus all that much. Besides if 25% of current cases are breakthrough cases, why would you feel safer on a plane if all are vaccinated?

[SkBlogW]

Southwest said the airline was working to return flight operations to normal as it dealt with a backlog of passengers from more than 2,000 canceled flights and thousands more that were delayed since Friday. The airline on Monday canceled 363 flights - about 10 percent of scheduled departures - while more than 1,300 were delayed, according to flight-tracking site FlightAware.

The disruptions inconvenienced, angered and stranded tens of thousands of passengers. The cancellations and delays Monday at the nation's fourth-largest domestic carrier were a costly extension of disruptions that stressed travel during the long holiday weekend.

These "planned cutbacks" are really fun! :shocked:

[nick demis]

A pilot was interviewed and said his present job is more stressful than when he was a fighter pilot. What does that say about the current situation? PS anyone that believes that the cancellations was due to weather, I have a bridge in NY for sale.

[Trayderjoe]

I do not know the full facts regarding S.W. Airlines problems, but the fact I do know is, the OP has only ever posted threads that are guaranteed to turn political, and stir up the same old anti-vaccine argument.
He is an Agent Provocateur of the first order!

:1rotfl: Oh...:1rotfl:..the....:1rotfl:....irony...:1rotfl:

An article was written in May of 2017 entitled “The Prison of Two Ideas”. I am not going to link it here as it covers political beliefs (easy Google search if you want to read it) but basically it says that you are either for or against a position. Many have come to believe that for every issue, there are only two possible positions, for which this thread has perfect examples, i.e. if you are anti mandate, then you are anti vaccine. In my opinion, based upon the content of threads I have read, this “prison” usually is built when emotion is involved and not facts supported by data. For example, is there proof that people who are anti-mandate are all anti vaccine? There is not, but there is proof that people support the vaccine and have had the vaccine, but are anti-mandate.

“My way or the highway” doesn’t leave much room for discourse, unless that is the objective.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Mandates don't require that you fly Southwest Airlines.

Mandates don't require that you work for Southwest Airlines.

Both of those are optional. You can find some other method of transportation, and you can work for a different employer - or start your own business if you'd rather.

You can also get your surgery at a hospital that doesn't require you to be vaccinated. You can shop at a different supermarket that doesn't require you to be vaccinated.

Lots and lots of options. In fact, this is about as "pro-choice" as it gets. Previously, you didn't have a choice. You didn't have the option of flying on a plane where everyone was vaccinated. Now you do.

Choice is good.

[SkBlogW]

Mandates don't require that you fly Southwest Airlines.

Mandates don't require that you work for Southwest Airlines.

Both of those are optional. You can find some other method of transportation, and you can work for a different employer - or start your own business if you'd rather.

You can also get your surgery at a hospital that doesn't require you to be vaccinated. You can shop at a different supermarket that doesn't require you to be vaccinated.

Lots and lots of options. In fact, this is about as "pro-choice" as it gets. Previously, you didn't have a choice. You didn't have the option of flying on a plane where everyone was vaccinated. Now you do.

Choice is good.

I don't believe any domestic airline has mandatory vaccinations for passengers at this time. But no worries, Senator Feinstein is on it,

“Today I introduced legislation requiring passengers on domestic flights to be vaccinated, test negative or be fully recovered from a previous Covid illness.”

Hey look, she snuck "fully recovered" in there. :) That may tick off the mandatory vaxers. Personally, I would rather share a flight with 100% covid suvivors, but they would probably refuse me as I might be an asymptomatic carrier.

All these new rules are going to make air travel even more fun. Instead of getting to the airport 2-3 hours early it may be 5-6. Trains will be faster. :icon_wink:

[Trayderjoe]

Mandates don't require that you fly Southwest Airlines.

Mandates don't require that you work for Southwest Airlines.

Both of those are optional. You can find some other method of transportation, and you can work for a different employer - or start your own business if you'd rather.

You can also get your surgery at a hospital that doesn't require you to be vaccinated. You can shop at a different supermarket that doesn't require you to be vaccinated.

Lots and lots of options. In fact, this is about as "pro-choice" as it gets. Previously, you didn't have a choice. You didn't have the option of flying on a plane where everyone was vaccinated. Now you do.

Choice is good.

How does “my body, my choice” sound? Or does that only apply to the segment of the population that “coined” the phrase, and only in a specific circumstance?

And how does one work for another company if that company is also under the direction of the mandate by virtue of having 100 or more employees? Well there you go, just work for a company with less than 100 employees and the mandate doesn’t apply. Wait, what? Yep, the rule proposal under OSHA doesn’t cover those businesses. If the mandate doesn’t apply to those companies, then maybe Covid is not the killer it is made out to be (which the data ACTUALLY SHOWS). Or maybe, since OSHA rules don’t apply to smaller companies, a work around to avoid judicial review hasn’t been identified yet.

Since “choice is good”, perhaps those who are vaccinated and wearing masks but still fear the virus should consider their choices such as double and triple masking if one doesn’t feel safe enough. They could also choose to get a booster as often as they feel their antibodies are declining. How could they tell? Simple, get tested every week and keep a log of the results.

BTW, I do support businesses making decisions based upon their determination of what will work best for them. I can then decide if I wish to work for or patronize that business. How likely would it be that an airline would require an employee to get a vaccination or lose their job in a vacuum? Highly unlikely that they would provide their competitors with the option to pick up already trained personnel to fill their openings.

Unfortunately the “fear porn” has been successful and people’s emotions are getting the better of them.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I have nothing to fear. I've been exposed, and I've been fully vaccinated, and I still wear a mask inside stores and medical buildings when I have an appointment. I'm also not at risk. But this isn't about me. It's about what's right for civilization, humanity, loving thy neighbor, giving a crap about your fellow human being.

[Trayderjoe]

I have nothing to fear. I've been exposed, and I've been fully vaccinated, and I still wear a mask inside stores and medical buildings when I have an appointment. I'm also not at risk. But this isn't about me. It's about what's right for civilization, humanity, loving thy neighbor, giving a crap about your fellow human being.

First, I am sorry to hear you were exposed, but am glad to hear that you are vaccinated, wear a mask, and don't feel you are at risk.

Wow-doing what is right for civilization and humanity! You would think that Covid was as deadly as a hemorrhagic fever such as Ebola or Marburg. So let's go to the data and take a look, perhaps I wasn't aware of how deadly Covid is.....

First, let's look at the current population clock (https://www.census.gov/popclock/world) to see about how many people live on this planet, and we will see at the time of my writing this post: 7, 795,546,137 (and climbing)

Let's now look at the world wide number of coronavirus cases, deaths, and recoveries (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) and we see:

Total cases: 239,303,783
Total deaths: 4,877,149
Total recoveries: 216,566,048

So for the worldwide population, it looks like 3% of the population experienced a case of Covid, 0.063% of the worldwide population has died from Covid, and 90.5% of the worldwide population (10/13 correction: should indicate “of the total cases”, not “of the worldwide population”) has RECOVERED from Covid.

Thank you for proving my earlier point, to wit:



..........Unfortunately the “fear porn” has been successful and people’s emotions are getting the better of them.

[mike234]

this is an absolute protest on vaccine mandate. it doesn't take a genius to figure this out. this country is coming to a screaming halt, and the media will not report on it. nothing to see here.

[MSchad]

I'm a bit confused by news "reporting" of this, and the surprise of people learning about this. Southwest Airlines announced back in November 2020 that they were going to be doing a bunch of layoffs and changing their schedules around. They announced it again in December.

In August of this year (2 months ago) they announced they'd be cutting flights and laying off more people through November 5.

It was an announced thing, it's not a "gotcha" situation, conspiracy, or coverup at all.

Southwest Airlines' pilot union sued the company last week, before staffing shortages led to the cancellation of more than 2,000 flights over the weekend (and more on Monday).

Seattle PD May Lose 40% Of Officers Over Covid-19 Vaccine Mandate - Invesbrain (https://invesbrain.com/seattle-pd-may-lose-40-of-officers-over-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/)

[chet2020]

You do understand that there are probably over 100 million Americans who have survived covid and have stronger and longer immunity than the fully vaccinated right?

I'd rather get on a plane with 100% verified covid survivors than fully vaccinated people. The CDC measured breakthrough cases in Los Angeles and 25% of all cases were breakthroughs of fully vaccinated people. I don't like those odds in an aluminum tube packed cheek to jowl with potential carriers.

Wrong. Vaccinated people have far more immunity than infection survivors. The data on this is clear and it's not even close.

[Escape Artist]

Wrong. Vaccinated people have far more immunity than infection survivors. The data on this is clear and it's not even close.

You're wrong. That's not true at all, hence the need for boosters. Besides, the so-called immunity given is just for S-specific antibodies, meaning for one kind of spike protein only. Natural immunity acquired after an infection is broad and more long-lived.

[blueash]

So let's go to the data and take a look, perhaps I wasn't aware of how deadly Covid is.....


current population : 7, 795,546,137 (and climbing)

world wide number of coronavirus cases, deaths, and recoveries

Total cases: 239,303,783
Total deaths: 4,877,149
Total recoveries: 216,566,048

So for the worldwide population, it looks like 3% of the population experienced a case of Covid, 0.063% of the worldwide population has died from Covid, and 90.5% of the worldwide population has RECOVERED from Covid.

Thank you for proving my earlier point, to wit:

If you are going to come here and claim special wisdom at understanding math and numbers, please do me the favor of getting the math right. I'll leave you to find the completely ridiculous figure you calculated with such certainty. As my elementary school teacher said, "Check your work"

[Trayderjoe]

If you are going to come here and claim special wisdom at understanding math and numbers, please do me the favor of getting the math right. I'll leave you to find the completely ridiculous figure you calculated with such certainty. As my elementary school teacher said, "Check your work"

Actually the math is correct. What was incorrect was the phrase 90.5% of the worldwide population recovered. It should have stated 90.5% of the total cases resulted in recovery. My bad. Feel better now?

The good news is that Covid is still not as deadly as the “Fearporn” promoters would have us believe.

[chet2020]

You're wrong. That's not true at all, hence the need for boosters. Besides, the so-called immunity given is just for S-specific antibodies, meaning for one kind of spike protein only. Natural immunity acquired after an infection is broad and more long-lived.

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination)

[coralway]

A pilot was interviewed and said his present job is more stressful than when he was a fighter pilot. What does that say about the current situation? PS anyone that believes that the cancellations was due to weather, I have a bridge in NY for sale.







Then he should quit. There are thousands of CFI all across the country eager to take his place. And that goes for all SW pilots. If they don't wanna adhere to their employers requirements - resign.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Actually the math is correct. What was incorrect was the phrase 90.5% of the worldwide population recovered. It should have stated 90.5% of the total cases resulted in recovery. My bad. Feel better now?

The good news is that Covid is still not as deadly as the “Fearporn” promoters would have us believe.

I'll let you do the checking since you started doing it anyway:

Of that 90.5% total cases that resulted in recovery:

How many required in-patient hospital stays?
How many man-hours went into the patients' recovery by health professionals, janitorial services, billing departments, insurance companies, ambulance services?
What was the average number of man-hours per patient for in-patient hospital stays?

How many required outpatient urgent care centers? Same questions for those.

How many required days missed from work?
How many total days missed from work, spread out among all people who were infected and recovered?
Of those days missed, how many were paid by employers? How many patients received no sick-pay for their days of work, and what was the average number of unpaid sick days per patient who was not entitled to sick pay?

How many family members had to miss work or school in order to care for the patient during recovery? How many hours were missed, per person?

How many patients recovered, but with permanent damage to any of their organs? How many family members will be spending the next several years assisting their "recovered" patients in treatments or extra medical care as a result of the permanent damage?

[Orvil]

Gary Kelly, CEO of SWA, said that sick calls were at the same rate as usually experienced during this time of year. The pilots union says that there is no concerted activity to reduce flights.

The truth of the matter is four-fold. One, they are understaffed both above the wing and below the wing. All airlines are understaffed. Too many retired or were laid off during the pandemic. Two, there were pop up thunderstorm cells around Jacksonville that clobbered all flying up and down the east coast Friday night. Three, ATC was short-handed Friday night in the high altitude sectors slowing down all traffic up and down the east coast. Four, Southwest uses a point-to-point operational model that is unique to the major airlines. While it is cheaper to operate on a day-to-day basis, it is seriously flawed when things go wrong. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way with limited ability to recover. Other airlines use the hub-and-spoke model which is more expensive to operate on a regular basis. The hub-and-spoke model gives the other major airlines the ability to recover the operation quickly when things go bad.

Thirty years in the industry. You learn a thing or two.

[Escape Artist]

Gary Kelly, CEO of SWA, said that sick calls were at the same rate as usually experienced during this time of year. The pilots union says that there is no concerted activity to reduce flights.

The truth of the matter is four-fold. One, they are understaffed both above the wing and below the wing. All airlines are understaffed. Too many retired or were laid off during the pandemic. Two, there were pop up thunderstorm cells around Jacksonville that clobbered all flying up and down the east coast Friday night. Three, ATC was short-handed Friday night in the high altitude sectors slowing down all traffic up and down the east coast. Four, Southwest uses a point-to-point operational model that is unique to the major airlines. While it is cheaper to operate on a day-to-day basis, it is seriously flawed when things go wrong. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way with limited ability to recover. Other airlines use the hub-and-spoke model which is more expensive to operate on a regular basis. The hub-and-spoke model gives the other major airlines the ability to recover the operation quickly when things go bad.

Thirty years in the industry. You learn a thing or two.

Hmmm, I'll have to ask my daughter's friend, who's a flight attendant for Southwest, about these assertions.

[jdulej]

Gary Kelly, CEO of SWA, said that sick calls were at the same rate as usually experienced during this time of year. The pilots union says that there is no concerted activity to reduce flights.

The truth of the matter is four-fold. One, they are understaffed both above the wing and below the wing. All airlines are understaffed. Too many retired or were laid off during the pandemic. Two, there were pop up thunderstorm cells around Jacksonville that clobbered all flying up and down the east coast Friday night. Three, ATC was short-handed Friday night in the high altitude sectors slowing down all traffic up and down the east coast. Four, Southwest uses a point-to-point operational model that is unique to the major airlines. While it is cheaper to operate on a day-to-day basis, it is seriously flawed when things go wrong. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way with limited ability to recover. Other airlines use the hub-and-spoke model which is more expensive to operate on a regular basis. The hub-and-spoke model gives the other major airlines the ability to recover the operation quickly when things go bad.

Thirty years in the industry. You learn a thing or two.

No fair. You are raining on the anti-vaxxer/anti-mandate parade.

[Trayderjoe]

I'll let you do the checking since you started doing it anyway:

Of that 90.5% total cases that resulted in recovery:

How many required in-patient hospital stays?
How many man-hours went into the patients' recovery by health professionals, janitorial services, billing departments, insurance companies, ambulance services?
What was the average number of man-hours per patient for in-patient hospital stays?

How many required outpatient urgent care centers? Same questions for those.

How many required days missed from work?
How many total days missed from work, spread out among all people who were infected and recovered?
Of those days missed, how many were paid by employers? How many patients received no sick-pay for their days of work, and what was the average number of unpaid sick days per patient who was not entitled to sick pay?

How many family members had to miss work or school in order to care for the patient during recovery? How many hours were missed, per person?

How many patients recovered, but with permanent damage to any of their organs? How many family members will be spending the next several years assisting their "recovered" patients in treatments or extra medical care as a result of the permanent damage?

Are any of these questions UNIQUE to Covid? Is it possible, maybe even a little bit of a possibility that the same questions can be asked about any disease? If you truly have need for this data, you can try and look it up and please, present links to the data to support any claims.

BTW, I am still waiting for proof for this assertion in another thread:

Originally Posted by coffeebean:

"Has the flu EVER stressed our health care system like Covid has? Just wondering."

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

"The plague did. The flu did not.

COVID-19, all strains from beginning in late 2019 til now, have caused or contributed to the death of more people who died from the BIG Spanish influenza (or complications of the Spanish flu) epidemic of 1918."

My response and request for the data to support the assertion can be found in the Vietnam vs Florida thread, post #151 (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/2007722-post151.html) which is linked for your convenience. For context, the flu pandemic of 1918 killed 1 in every 150 people versus Covid which has killed 1 in 500.

[NoMoSno]

Then he should quit. There are thousands of CFI all across the country eager to take his place. And that goes for all SW pilots. If they don't wanna adhere to their employers requirements - resign.
Actually, there is a qualified pilot shortage currently.

[Escape Artist]

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination)

That's not true. Acquired or natural immunity often can last a lifetime. They say you never catch the same cold (coronavirus) twice because you acquire natural immunity. However, there's also dozens of mutations and variants of the common cold so that's why we still catch colds every year. It's will be the same with Covid. If the vaccines conferred strong immunity you wouldn't need booster shots every few months. Pfizer admitted their vaccines waned by summer. As for Israel, they're already working on their fourth booster shot as cases continue to go up.

I will try and link the S-specific protein data later. It stands to reason, anyway, as it was developed for the original Covid hence it doesn't work that well against variants. It's not even a vaccine, remember, it's mRNA gene therapy. It instructs your cells to recognize and neutralize a particular spike protein.

[coffeebean]

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination)

Thank you for posting this link from a reliable source. When will people who have had natural Covid infection stop thinking they have better immunity than vaccinated people?

[SkBlogW]

Thank you for posting this link from a reliable source. When will people who have had natural Covid infection stop thinking they have better immunity than vaccinated people?

I don't know who the quack is at that Nebraska HMO where that article was posted, but he is obviously ignorant of actual studies conducted by the CDC, Cleveland Clinic, and NIH.

Explaining this as I would to a third grader, I would say "Johnny, do you see lots of articles in the news about covid reinfections, or do you see tons of reports about breakthrough infections of the fully vaccinated"

The reinfection rate found in most scientific studies is 1% or less. The CDC measured breakthrough cases in Los Angeles and found them to be 25% of total cases.

"Which number is bigger Johnny? 1% or 25%??"

The cohort of 75,149 previously infected resulted in 315 suspected reinfections were identified, with a cumulative incidence at 270 days of 0.8%

Rate and severity of suspected SARS-Cov-2 reinfection in a cohort of PCR-positive COVID-19 patients (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8373524/)

Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​

Reinfection with COVID-19 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html)

Cleveland Clinic study

The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects.

Conclusions Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals | medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2)

"Now Johnny, if you want to believe some Omaha quack over the heavyweights listed above, it is your right to remain completely misinformed."

[Bill14564]

I don't know who the quack is at that Nebraska HMO where that article was posted, but he is obviously ignorant of actual studies conducted by the CDC, Cleveland Clinic, and NIH.

Explaining this as I would to a third grader, I would say "Johnny, do you see lots of articles in the news about covid reinfections, or do you see tons of reports about breakthrough infections of the fully vaccinated"

The reinfection rate found in most scientific studies is 1% or less. The CDC measured breakthrough cases in Los Angeles and found them to be 25% of total cases.

"Which number is bigger Johnny? 1% or 25%??"

The cohort of 75,149 previously infected resulted in 315 suspected reinfections were identified, with a cumulative incidence at 270 days of 0.8%

Rate and severity of suspected SARS-Cov-2 reinfection in a cohort of PCR-positive COVID-19 patients (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8373524/)

Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​

Reinfection with COVID-19 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html)

Cleveland Clinic study

The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects.

Conclusions Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals | medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2)

"Now Johnny, if you want to believe some Omaha quack over the heavyweights listed above, it is your right to remain completely misinformed."

Third grade teachers should be held to a higher standard.

Hopefully, Johnny would be bright enough to point out the first "study" does not include a control to compare to, the second statement is unqualified and unsupported, and the third quote is actually just a segment of the actual sentence:
The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated.

[SkBlogW]

Third grade teachers should be held to a higher standard.

Hopefully, Johnny would be bright enough to point out the first "study" does not include a control to compare to, the second statement is unqualified and unsupported, and the third quote is actually just a segment of the actual sentence:
The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated.

You don't need a control group to count the number of reinfections in a large cohort. Even Johnny knows that retrospective case studies do not have control groups.

2nd statement was made by CDC, I think they know more about it than you do.

3rd statement: SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects. Stands by itself, is there something you don't understand about almost zero?

Since you appear to think you know more about this than the scientists and doctors that made the statements I linked to, show us your studies and data.

Do you actually think that reinfections are common and occur at higher rates than breakthrough cases? Don't believe natural immunity is stronger and longer lasting than vaccines? That's absurd, all the data says the opposite.

[Elaine Dickinson]

Mandates don't require that you work for Southwest Airlines.

What about if you currently work at SWA and are MANDATED to be vaccinated. What if you are a healthy 35 year old pilot with 30 years of flying left and your employment is predicated on passing a FAA Medical Exam every 6 months for the next 30 years. If the Covid vaccine creates any side effects that risk that employment in the next 30 years would you err on the side of your own natural immune system. Or have something injected into your body that comes with NO LIABILITY WHATSOEVER. That's a BIG question for a healthy 35 year old pilot with multimillion in career earning to gamble on. Once again, a 35 year old pilot will retire at 65 with over $4,000,000 in their 401k. And you expect them to bet it all on black at the roulette table.

[Escape Artist]

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination)

Here's an article by the NIH from this year. You have to remember that the pandemic and related research is only two years old. They just need to keep testing for Abs of those who have recovered from Covid going forward to get more comprehensive data.

Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH) (https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19)

[dewilson58]

It was weather.

[ThirdOfFive]

Here's an article by the NIH from this year. You have to remember that the pandemic and related research is only two years old. They just need to keep testing for Abs of those who have recovered from Covid going forward to get more comprehensive data.

Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH) (https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19)
...And the battle of the statistics continues.

As Mark Twain once said, "There are three kinds of untruths; lies, damned lies and statistics". As far as I am concerned statistics are the worst, because we can make them say virtually anything we want them to say.

Just another example that we are having the wrong debate. The REAL question is whether or not, in the end, the Supreme Court will decide that people have the right, or not, to decide on their own whether or not a vaccination is right for them.

[Bonnevie]

This is PRECISELY why this is happening. The Southwest pilots are protesting the vaccine mandate (not the vaccine). In my opinion mainstream media is frantic to keep this from being well-known (organized resistance and all that) but the Internet has numerous pictures of Southwest Airlines airplanes parked and flying the "Don't Tread On Me" flag. Rumor has it as well this will (perhaps already has) include other airlines as well.

Kudos to those brave men and women. We have been sheep long enough.


despite anything that's being said, so many of you refuse to budge from the "it's the mandates". Spirit had a similar situation a couple of months ago when they had to cancel many flights. Both Spirit and Southwest don't use hubs....so there's a cascade effect. If there's been "numerous pictures" then they are of the same thing. if you actually do some research, there was one photo in someone's tweet. Per Snopes: We reached out to Benny Johnson (who tweeted the photo) for more information to help authenticate the image but did not receive a response. For all of these reasons, on Oct. 14, we changed the rating from “Research In Progress” to “Unproven.”

as for sheep, I know of no bigger sheep than those who take everything they here from Fox News or the like as fact without verifying anything.

[SkBlogW]

as for sheep, I know of no bigger sheep than those who take everything they here from Fox News or the like as fact without verifying anything.

I hear that there are not that many Fox watchers here.

[chet2020]

You don't need a control group to count the number of reinfections in a large cohort. Even Johnny knows that retrospective case studies do not have control groups.

2nd statement was made by CDC, I think they know more about it than you do.

3rd statement: SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects. Stands by itself, is there something you don't understand about almost zero?

Since you appear to think you know more about this than the scientists and doctors that made the statements I linked to, show us your studies and data.

Do you actually think that reinfections are common and occur at higher rates than breakthrough cases? Don't believe natural immunity is stronger and longer lasting than vaccines? That's absurd, all the data says the opposite.

You took this statement:

"The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated."

But you only posted this:

"The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects."

That's quite an interesting way to make an argument.

Since you mention the CDC, here's an article from their website dated Aug 6, 2021 (this article is two months more recent than yours).

"In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections."



New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html)

[Swoop]

You took this statement:

"The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated."

But you only posted this:

"The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects."

That's quite an interesting way to make an argument.

Since you mention the CDC, here's an article from their website dated Aug 6, 2021 (this article is two months more recent than yours).

"In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections."



New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html)

According to Amesh Adalja, an infectious disease doctor from Johns Hopkins University, regarding COVID-19 reinfections. “It's not a very common thing - at least - and it will get higher as we get further out. But right now, it's probably less than 1%.”

Sorry, but vaccinated breakthrough cases are occurring at a higher rate than 1%.

Except for a single isolated study in Kentucky, the vast majority of studies worldwide indicate that the likelihood of reinfection is lower than the likelihood of breakthrough cases in vaccinated individuals.

Most “reports” touting the higher effectiveness of the vaccines, are based on models, not actual cases.