Proposed Electric Vehicle Tax

[blueash]

There was a bill (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/florida-legislature-proposes-a-yearly-tax-on-ev-owners-again/)working its way thru the legislature in Florida to impose a yearly tax on EVs. The proposal was for a tax of $135/yr for the EVs. It never made it out of committee (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/819/?Tab=RelatedBills) in 2021 but is likely to be reintroduced.

The thinking is that those with a gas car are paying a gasoline tax with every fill-up which funds road infrastructure. Those with EVs and to some extent hybrids are getting to use that infrastructure for free. Consider if there were a toll bridge but EVs didn't have to pay a toll.

Shouldn't EV owners pay their way? I did a quick calculation based on averages of 11,000 miles/yr for each driver in Florida (https://www.carinsurance.com/Articles/average-miles-driven-per-year-by-state.aspx) and an average $0.55 per gallon Federal/state/local gas tax (http://edr.state.fl.us/Content/local-government/data/county-municipal/2021LOFTrates.pdf). Using a guesstimate of the typical (https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report) gasoline fueled car/truck of 22 mpg each vehicle is paying

11000 miles/22 miles/gal = 500 gallons * 0.55 dollars/gal = $275 per year in taxes paid by a gasoline fueled car. If anything the proposal was far too low. This calculation is for pure EV's. How to handle hybrids which use some electric and some gas also needs to be evaluated. No gas, no squeegee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOMThfGSTyU)

With our crumbling roads, bridges, and infrastructure we will either need to move away from the idea of a user fee and make paying those costs just part of our overall tax policy or figure out a way to make non-gasoline users share the expense.

[Dana1963]

Why are there so many toll roads in Florida. Next Florida will tax golf carts both gas or electric

[tophcfa]

The lack of gasoline tax funding for road infrastructure will become a serious problem as more and more people switch to EV’s. Don’t be surprised if sometime in the future there will be a mileage monitor on EV’s so that they can be taxed based on miles driven.

[Stu from NYC]

Politicians are good at finding new things to tax but EV's should be paying their share for road improvements and new construction

[MSchad]

The lack of gasoline tax funding for road infrastructure will become a serious problem as more and more people switch to EV’s. Don’t be surprised if sometime in the future there will be a mileage monitor on EV’s so that they can be taxed based on miles driven.
Already being talked about:
Pete Buttigieg suggests taxing drivers by the mile to pay for infrastructure bill (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/pete-buttigieg-suggests-taxing-drivers-by-the-mile-to-pay-for-infrastructure-bill/ar-BB1f0qfk)

[Bay Kid]

A little off subject, but I noticed the Chey Bolt is banned from the airport parking garage.

[biker1]

No. Chevy Bolt.

A little off subject, but I noticed the Chey Volt is banned from the airport parking garage.

[Topspinmo]

Why are there so many toll roads in Florida. Next Florida will tax golf carts both gas or electric


Few Toll roads never get paid off due to number of career personnel required to collect the tolls and pay for benefits. Good example I44 running through Oklahoma. Started charging tolls 1953. Once found out it’s never ending gold mine.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

I think taxing EV cars is a good idea but doubt it will happen as they are pushing very hard for people to drive EV’s. I would hate to go on vacation driving an EV and most will not fit a family of 4 plus luggage. Where do these people think electricity comes from? Lighting rods?

[Road-Runner]

I think taxing EV cars is a good idea but doubt it will happen as they are pushing very hard for people to drive EV’s. I would hate to go on vacation driving an EV and most will not fit a family of 4 plus luggage. Where do these people think electricity comes from? Lighting rods?

Don't be silly, it comes from flying kites with a key attached, everyone knows that.

[biker1]

Currently, 19 states have a specific tax on EVs. Florida is not one of them, yet.

I think taxing EV cars is a good idea but doubt it will happen as they are pushing very hard for people to drive EV’s. I would hate to go on vacation driving an EV and most will not fit a family of 4 plus luggage. Where do these people think electricity comes from? Lighting rods?

[valuemkt]

Let's not forget fair share tax on lithium battery collection and storage

[ctmurray]

Let's not forget fair share tax on lithium battery collection and storage
At lease for regular batteries, the collection and recycling of the battery is the responsibility of the seller of batteries. Thats why you don't see batteries as trash along the road side, unlike tires. A good example of the seller carrying the burden of disposal. So, I expect that the makers of the EV cars will be responsible for collection and recycling or disposal of these batteries. And this is built into the cost of the EV.

[PugMom]

Why are there so many toll roads in Florida. Next Florida will tax golf carts both gas or electric

yeah, but the tolls are very low in cost compared to some areas. i think the most i paid for a fl toll since i've been here was $1.50. just some weeks ago, i had to pay $22 just to cross a bridge in jersey, $18 for a bridge in nyc.

[Wyseguy]

In NY they raised the gas tax to discourage people from driving and creating pollution. Driving miles did drop. Dropped enough where the state stopped receiving as much from the gas tax as they had been. Of course, they raised the gas tax more.
Same story with cigarettes. Sin tax.

[Wyseguy]

yeah, but the tolls are very low in cost compared to some areas. i think the most i paid for a fl toll since i've been here was $1.50. just some weeks ago, i had to pay $22 just to cross a bridge in jersey, $18 for a bridge in nyc.

I paid $16.00 to use the GWB or Lincoln Tunnel at least five times a week. Crazy.
What is $22.00?

[tvbound]

Our infrastructure has to be paid somehow, but I've never thought the gas tax was the proper or fair way to do it. It seems to me that especially with so many EV's/hybrids these days, a method that more closely reflects the damage done to our roads/bridges needs to be found. One way I've heard proposed that makes sense to me, is to develop a formula that takes the GVWR (the maximum loaded weight of your vehicle/trailer) and the miles driven each year - to determine the tax paid. Some may say that it's not fair, because vehicles aren't always loaded to the max, but I would point out that the biggest trucks that operate fully loaded (and that do the most damage) are currently paying the same as an empty truck, when the tax is simply based on fuel purchased. And yes, it can become complicated in determining what an OTR truck can actually pull, but maybe a function of horsepower could also be included in the formula?

[Bay Kid]

Tax, Tax, Tax, then TAX some more.

[kkingston57]

Tax, Tax, Tax, then TAX some more.

As much as I and others do not like to pay taxes, where does the money come from to maintain, fix and build roads and bridges?

Continued rise of electric hybird and high MPG vehicles is going to create shortages in money for roads. Politicians need to be working NOW on finding a fair way to provide revenue for the work needed, keeping in mind that under the current taxation method(.35 per gallon) the tax revenue will go down.

Currenlty if a person drives a high mileage vehicle they are probably paying a lot less in taxes than the past if they drove a low mileage vehicle. In the 90's had a Cadillac which got 8 mpg. Some of the best MPG cars got 20 mpg(had a VW bug and it got 20 mpg with no frills) Now have full size Acura and it gets 25 mpg. Overall now I pay less in road taxes for the same miles driven. It is even more pronounced in TV as most of us do not work and spend a lot of time driving golf carts.

[JoMar]

Our infrastructure has to be paid somehow, but I've never thought the gas tax was the proper or fair way to do it. It seems to me that especially with so many EV's/hybrids these days, a method that more closely reflects the damage done to our roads/bridges needs to be found. One way I've heard proposed that makes sense to me, is to develop a formula that takes the GVWR (the maximum loaded weight of your vehicle/trailer) and the miles driven each year - to determine the tax paid. Some may say that it's not fair, because vehicles aren't always loaded to the max, but I would point out that the biggest trucks that operate fully loaded (and that do the most damage) are currently paying the same as an empty truck, when the tax is simply based on fuel purchased. And yes, it can become complicated in determining what an OTR truck can actually pull, but maybe a function of horsepower could also be included in the formula?

And the commercial vehicles will pass the tax to the consumer through increased costs to the shipper.

[spd2918]

Make the tax a one time $7,500 fee so the taxpayers can recoup their loss.

[biker1]

Approximately 19 states already charge an annual EV tax to compensate for the fact that EVs don't provide revenue for roads via gasoline tax. Florida doesn't currently charge this tax but I suspect at some point in the future it will. So, how much should it be? As a ball park estimate, let's assume you drive the average (not Village's average) of 12,000 miles per year and get 30 miles per gallon. The Florida gas tax (there is a state and federal component) is 59.5 cents per gallon. That works out to about $240 per year.

As much as I and others do not like to pay taxes, where does the money come from to maintain, fix and build roads and bridges?

Continued rise of electric hybird and high MPG vehicles is going to create shortages in money for roads. Politicians need to be working NOW on finding a fair way to provide revenue for the work needed, keeping in mind that under the current taxation method(.35 per gallon) the tax revenue will go down.

Currenlty if a person drives a high mileage vehicle they are probably paying a lot less in taxes than the past if they drove a low mileage vehicle. In the 90's had a Cadillac which got 8 mpg. Some of the best MPG cars got 20 mpg(had a VW bug and it got 20 mpg with no frills) Now have full size Acura and it gets 25 mpg. Overall now I pay less in road taxes for the same miles driven. It is even more pronounced in TV as most of us do not work and spend a lot of time driving golf carts.

[John-US]

ICE vehicles should be taxed more for the pollution. In fact other countries it costs MORE to register an older vehicle than newer to get folks to turn off the older vehicles with dated pollution.

As jay leno would say electric vehicles are great for commuting etc. like older vehicles and horses they should be used as a hobby.

Nobody is commuting to work on a horse.

*the yesteryear golf cars are not only period correct in style , also in pollution. (not a good smell) hey if you loved yesterday why are you in the present? - yes that's harsh.

Relax guys it's a forum.

[tophcfa]

ICE vehicles should be taxed more for the pollution. In fact other countries it costs MORE to register an older vehicle than newer to get folks to turn off the older vehicles with dated pollution.

As jay leno would say electric vehicles are great for commuting etc. like older vehicles and horses they should be used as a hobby.

Nobody is commuting to work on a horse.

*the yesteryear golf cars are not only period correct in style , also in pollution. (not a good smell) hey if you loved yesterday why are you in the present? - yes that's harsh.

Relax guys it's a forum.

ICE vehicles already are taxed more via the gas tax. Also, the lower MPH vehicles are taxed more since they burn more gas/diesel. What I am afraid of is that they will start taxing all vehicles based on miles driven and keep the current gas tax, effectively double taxing ICE vehicles.

[biker1]

That could possibly happen. Never forget that the Government often uses money as an incentive, in this case to motivate you to buy an electric car.

ICE vehicles already are taxed more via the gas tax. Also, the lower MPH vehicles are taxed more since they burn more gas/diesel. What I am afraid of is that they will start taxing all vehicles based on miles driven and keep the current gas tax, effectively double taxing ICE vehicles.

[blueash]

It is interesting to me that almost everyone has agreed that the present method of financing road infrastructure which mostly depends on the gasoline use tax needs to be fixed; and, this problem will only worsen as more electric vehicles and more fuel efficient cars come onto the roads. Keep in mind that as states move to tax EVs that does nothing to replenish the federal highway fund that receives 18 cents a gallon.

Unlike the states which raise their gas tax often, the federal tax has been the same since 1993. The Highway Trust Fund (https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-highway-trust-fund-and-how-it-financed) is billions in the red and worsening every year. Most of the money in the fund is returned to the states for projects.

Many states use their own gas tax collected for costs that are not transportation related including police costs, education, and administration (https://reason.org/policy-brief/how-much-gas-tax-money-states-divert-away-from-roads/)

So why is this proposed legislation going nowhere in Florida? The powerful oil industry is pushing it, to reduce the attractiveness of buying an EV. Is it just the "all taxes are evil" people? Or politicians so afraid that a future opponent will run an ad against them for imposing a tax.. I can't figure it out.

[tvbound]

And the commercial vehicles will pass the tax to the consumer through increased costs to the shipper.

Which has been the same cry to avoid taxing those who can afford it the most, since like forever. We became the greatest nation on earth, with a top marginal tax rate more than double what it is now. Given that there is still competition, we'll see how much the entirety of any tax is simply a pass-through, versus a company/entity deciding to absorb some of it themselves. Welcome to capitalism.

[Number 10 GI]

Our infrastructure has to be paid somehow, but I've never thought the gas tax was the proper or fair way to do it. It seems to me that especially with so many EV's/hybrids these days, a method that more closely reflects the damage done to our roads/bridges needs to be found. One way I've heard proposed that makes sense to me, is to develop a formula that takes the GVWR (the maximum loaded weight of your vehicle/trailer) and the miles driven each year - to determine the tax paid. Some may say that it's not fair, because vehicles aren't always loaded to the max, but I would point out that the biggest trucks that operate fully loaded (and that do the most damage) are currently paying the same as an empty truck, when the tax is simply based on fuel purchased. And yes, it can become complicated in determining what an OTR truck can actually pull, but maybe a function of horsepower could also be included in the formula?

According to this article a large truck pays a bit over $13,000 a year in road tax. A typical passenger vehicle pays a bit less than $400 a year.

Truck Taxes and Revenue – Road Funding: Time for a Change – Mackinac Center (https://www.mackinac.org/8433#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20a%20typical%2080%2C 000%20pound%20GVW%20tractor-trailer,fees%2C%20ends%20up%20paying%20about%20%24 397%20per%20year.)

[blueash]

According to this article a large truck pays a bit over $13,000 a year in road tax. A typical passenger vehicle pays a bit less than $400 a year.

Truck Taxes and Revenue – Road Funding: Time for a Change – Mackinac Center (https://www.mackinac.org/8433#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20a%20typical%2080%2C 000%20pound%20GVW%20tractor-trailer,fees%2C%20ends%20up%20paying%20about%20%24 397%20per%20year.)

As Paul Harvey would now pause and say.. the rest of the story. You cannot equate miles driven by a large truck with that by a passenger car. Our roads are nearly immune to wear from cars. Almost all the damage is done by heavy vehicles. A single 5 axle truck equals the wear and tear of 1500 cars (https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf). See table 2 page 9

A truck axle carrying 18000 pounds equals that of 5000 cars (https://www.gao.gov/products/109954)

The trucking industry disputes these numbers saying that
When a highway is properly designed…it will not be damaged by the traffic it is designed to support (https://www.trucking.org/news-insights/highway-legend-how-false-stat-about-trucks-road-damage-based-60-years-distortion)

Of course not all road tax is repaving cost. Part is the cost of building the original road bed or bridge to handle the weight of trucks. If the numbers above for gas tax paid by trucks only reflects miles driven it woefully under collects for the harm to infrastructure of those trucks.

[tvbound]

According to this article a large truck pays a bit over $13,000 a year in road tax. A typical passenger vehicle pays a bit less than $400 a year.

Truck Taxes and Revenue – Road Funding: Time for a Change – Mackinac Center (/8433#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20a%20typical%2080%2C 000%20pound%20GVW%20tractor-trailer,fees%2C%20ends%20up%20paying%20about%20%24 397%20per%20year.)

That highly biased site, conveniently omits the amount of miles driven by those large trucks - that do most of the damage.

While a long read (but some eye-opening graphs), here is a much more in-depth and balanced look at our current issues.

Vehicle Miles Traveled (VMT) Tax | Highway Funding | Tax Foundation (https://taxfoundation.org/road-funding-vehicle-miles-traveled-tax/#Numbers)

[Luggage]

If you look around you, our roads are not crumbling and we don't have to spend any more money on infrastructure as we're spending quite enough thank you very much in Florida

[pauld315]

It is interesting to me that almost everyone has agreed that the present method of financing road infrastructure which mostly depends on the gasoline use tax needs to be fixed; and, this problem will only worsen as more electric vehicles and more fuel efficient cars come onto the roads. Keep in mind that as states move to tax EVs that does nothing to replenish the federal highway fund that receives 18 cents a gallon.

Unlike the states which raise their gas tax often, the federal tax has been the same since 1993. The Highway Trust Fund (https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-highway-trust-fund-and-how-it-financed) is billions in the red and worsening every year. Most of the money in the fund is returned to the states for projects.

Many states use their own gas tax collected for costs that are not transportation related including police costs, education, and administration (https://reason.org/policy-brief/how-much-gas-tax-money-states-divert-away-from-roads/)

So why is this proposed legislation going nowhere in Florida? The powerful oil industry is pushing it, to reduce the attractiveness of buying an EV. Is it just the "all taxes are evil" people? Or politicians so afraid that a future opponent will run an ad against them for imposing a tax.. I can't figure it out.

So, how much do EV users pay in taxes to charge their cars to the electric companies in their monthly electric bills already. Also, how much does Tesla and the other EV fast charging networks pay in taxes to the utilities to provide that capability? You can bet all those costs are passed on to the consumer.

[GpaVader]

Certainly understand wanting to find a way to collect Road fees for EV's, what I don't understand is the need to collect that from Hybrid's at least the gas powered ones. I own one and get an average of 35 mpg. This seems as though you are attempting to penalize someone for buying a fuel efficient car. Maybe you leave the gas tax alone so you are collecting money for out of state users and adding a surcharge on EV when they renew their tabs is a better approach. You're still not going to capture the out of state money but you will get more of the local money.

[Luggage]

Well here in Leesburg, I paid a city tax on my electric bill of about 13%. Right now electric cars are about 1% of all cars in the US but I see the point of making everyone pay " their fair share". It would be reasonable for the local DMV to take your mileage at the beginning and the end of each year and make you pay a tax on the perm oil that you have driven your electric car based on a reasonable amount of approximately 25 or 35 miles per gallon compared to a gas car of whatever the state and government taxes should be are for gasoline. "Fair enough Tax"

[Luggage]

And I'm really surprised Congress has not decided to pass and electric car tax yearly for those that have registered fully electric cars.



Well here in Leesburg, I paid a city tax on my electric bill of about 13%. Right now electric cars are about 1% of all cars in the US but I see the point of making everyone pay " their fair share". It would be reasonable for the local DMV to take your mileage at the beginning and the end of each year and make you pay a tax on the perm oil that you have driven your electric car based on a reasonable amount of approximately 25 or 35 miles per gallon compared to a gas car of whatever the state and government taxes should be are for gasoline. "Fair enough Tax"

[biker1]

It would be better follow the lead of the 19 states that already tax EVs - charge a set amount.

Well here in Leesburg, I paid a city tax on my electric bill of about 13%. Right now electric cars are about 1% of all cars in the US but I see the point of making everyone pay " their fair share". It would be reasonable for the local DMV to take your mileage at the beginning and the end of each year and make you pay a tax on the perm oil that you have driven your electric car based on a reasonable amount of approximately 25 or 35 miles per gallon compared to a gas car of whatever the state and government taxes should be are for gasoline. "Fair enough Tax"

[Art cov]

Our infrastructure has to be paid somehow, but I've never thought the gas tax was the proper or fair way to do it. It seems to me that especially with so many EV's/hybrids these days, a method that more closely reflects the damage done to our roads/bridges needs to be found. One way I've heard proposed that makes sense to me, is to develop a formula that takes the GVWR (the maximum loaded weight of your vehicle/trailer) and the miles driven each year - to determine the tax paid. Some may say that it's not fair, because vehicles aren't always loaded to the max, but I would point out that the biggest trucks that operate fully loaded (and that do the most damage) are currently paying the same as an empty truck, when the tax is simply based on fuel purchased. And yes, it can become complicated in determining what an OTR truck can actually pull, but maybe a function of horsepower could also be included in the formula?
The formula will be that the cost of goods will increase, which will be paid by all consumers. Those OTR expenses will be paid by us every time we buy something. Maybe the wind in some way will generate power while vehicles are moving, thus no need to use fuel or electricity. The combination of wind and solar could be effective but we will never see it. Just think, if our government knew how to budget, instead they are full of waste and squandered much of the gas taxes through the years to prevent us from having the best of roads. Gas taxes not enough so let’s tax for using our turnpikes and bridges. Well, that’s not enough!

[Bay Kid]

[QUOTE=Luggage;2025555]And I'm really surprised Congress has not decided to pass and electric car tax yearly for those that have registered fully electric cars.[/QUOT

[Brad-tv]

Maybe I’m wrong but…..

I thought the 25% tax increase in sumpter county last year was to repave the roads ( at least partly) in the villages that were perfectly fine in the first place? At least that was the chatter on the forum last year?

So if that’s true why does it matter what kind of vehicle we drive?

[JMintzer]

Maybe I’m wrong but…..

I thought the 25% tax increase in sumpter county last year was to repave the roads ( at least partly) in the villages that were perfectly fine in the first place? At least that was the chatter on the forum last year?

So if that’s true why does it matter what kind of vehicle we drive?

They're talking about a state/federal tax, not a county tax...

[JoMar]

Which has been the same cry to avoid taxing those who can afford it the most, since like forever. We became the greatest nation on earth, with a top marginal tax rate more than double what it is now. Given that there is still competition, we'll see how much the entirety of any tax is simply a pass-through, versus a company/entity deciding to absorb some of it themselves. Welcome to capitalism.

A business plan is a business plan. A company may find ways to cut operating costs to be competitive but cutting taxes and costs that they are charged from others (shippers are one)is only possible if you find someone that is willing to deliver at reduced prices. That means reducing their operating costs and that usually means reduced quality. So far, based on current price increases that doesn't seem to be happening. And that too is capitalism.

[Topspinmo]

There was a bill (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/florida-legislature-proposes-a-yearly-tax-on-ev-owners-again/)working its way thru the legislature in Florida to impose a yearly tax on EVs. The proposal was for a tax of $135/yr for the EVs. It never made it out of committee (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/819/?Tab=RelatedBills) in 2021 but is likely to be reintroduced.

The thinking is that those with a gas car are paying a gasoline tax with every fill-up which funds road infrastructure. Those with EVs and to some extent hybrids are getting to use that infrastructure for free. Consider if there were a toll bridge but EVs didn't have to pay a toll.

Shouldn't EV owners pay their way? I did a quick calculation based on averages of 11,000 miles/yr for each driver in Florida (https://www.carinsurance.com/Articles/average-miles-driven-per-year-by-state.aspx) and an average $0.55 per gallon Federal/state/local gas tax (http://edr.state.fl.us/Content/local-government/data/county-municipal/2021LOFTrates.pdf). Using a guesstimate of the typical (https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report) gasoline fueled car/truck of 22 mpg each vehicle is paying

11000 miles/22 miles/gal = 500 gallons * 0.55 dollars/gal = $275 per year in taxes paid by a gasoline fueled car. If anything the proposal was far too low. This calculation is for pure EV's. How to handle hybrids which use some electric and some gas also needs to be evaluated. No gas, no squeegee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOMThfGSTyU)

With our crumbling roads, bridges, and infrastructure we will either need to move away from the idea of a user fee and make paying those costs just part of our overall tax policy or figure out a way to make non-gasoline users share the expense.

Too low, should be at least double that IMO.

[blueash]

And I'm really surprised Congress has not decided to pass and electric car tax yearly for those that have registered fully electric cars.


The Federal government is not involved in the licensing and registration of cars. There is presently no mechanism that would allow them to know who owns an EV nor tax EVs. They could add a line to your income tax form.. Do you own an EV? and tax it that way, but the IRS has AFAIK not been involved in that kind of tax administration.

[PugMom]

I paid $16.00 to use the GWB or Lincoln Tunnel at least five times a week. Crazy.
What is $22.00?

i have a large car/livery vehicle