Gas versus Electric - Here we go again, but a different perspective.

[jmaccallum]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

[Bilyclub]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:


Does he know our garbage is burned to provide electricity?

[retiredguy123]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:
What does he mean by the "near future"? In the last quarter, electric vehicles accounted for only 4.5 percent of vehicle sales in the US. So, 95.5 percent of the new vehicles rolling out of dealerships are gas vehicles. Almost all of those new vehicles will still be on the road 20 years from now unless they are banned. Don't you think it is way too premature to be predicting that they will be in the Smithsonian in the near future? Think about it.

[BigSteph]

You have a decent point. I don't think you can discount all the internal combustion engine pollution from the first one to the present.

However, think about where electricity comes from;

Coal -- no need to explain after seeing the flat topped mountains of WV, or the black lung of middle-aged deep-ground miners.

Nuclear -- look what happens when something goes wrong -- 3 Mile Island, Fukushima, Chernobyl, etc. Even when all goes well, there is material that must transported out west and kept for many lifetimes in caves. Heaven forbid if sometimes causes those containers to leach.

Wind -- another good choice, but it is dependent on nature. Also requires maintenance as well as impacts on birds and the hum of the turbine on humans.

Trash -- yeah, I am told my trash goes to producing energy via turbine revolution. Still hurts to throw away cardboard and aluminum cans.

Solar -- this is a good local option, but the energy must be stored and that is an ecological mess with batteries. Solar also has high $ cost of entry that take nearly the entire life-cycle of the panel to break even. Solar take resources to produce the panel and store the energy.

Shortages already being experienced for renewables.

Sand for panels and chips
Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html)

Cobalt and Lithium for battery storage
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/

There is nothing great about energy creation, no matter the method.

I have a gas cart and a battery lawnmower. I feel neither has a superiority over the other -- just a different dirty means to produce the same thrust.


In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

[dtennent]

While I believe electric vehicles will play a big part of transportation going forward, you should realize that catalytic converters have been on gasoline cars since 1974. The catalytic system converts carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and NOX to nitrogen. So there are no toxic fumes coming from automobiles. Obviously, if a car is left running in a closed space, it will consume oxygen and drive up the carbon dioxide levels which will eventually cause you problems The gas powered golf cart is a different story as they have no catalytic converters - well, at least not yet.

[Papa_lecki]

I’ll take conversations that didn’t happen for $100.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/16/push-mining-metals-electric-vehicles-splits-democrats-environmentalists/

“The most vocal opponents have trained their sights on Thacker Pass, a proposed lithium mine in Humboldt County, Nev. Environmental and Indigenous groups sued over the Bureau of Land Management's permit for the project last year, saying the mine could damage sacred sites and harm the climate, wildlife and groundwater.

Outside the courtroom, Max Wilbert, a leader of a group called Deep Green Resistance, has camped in the desert for months to protest the project's environmental impact. “The proposed Thacker Pass mine would destroy or degrade dozens of square miles of habitat and emit the carbon emissions equivalent to a small city,” Wilbert wrote in an opinion piece in the Reno Gazette-Journal last month.”

Are the mines, strip mining for the metals in batteries using solar powered equipment or equipment run on fossil fuels?

[jmaccallum]

While I believe electric vehicles will play a big part of transportation going forward, you should realize that catalytic converters have been on gasoline cars since 1974. The catalytic system converts carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and NOX to nitrogen. So there are no toxic fumes coming from automobiles. Obviously, if a car is left running in a closed space, it will consume oxygen and drive up the carbon dioxide levels which will eventually cause you problems The gas powered golf cart is a different story as they have no catalytic converters - well, at least not yet.

He said, yes, but it’s trading one evil for another. Autocatalysts leach clusters Pt, Pd, Rh. Contamination of the atmosphere, soil and surface water by heavy metals. Everyone knows but nobody wants to talk about it. As far as gas golf carts go, Meh.

[davem4616]

I plan to switch over the same month Air Force One goes electric and the presidential motorcade is all electric

[jmaccallum]

Does he know our garbage is burned to provide electricity?

Yes, and it’s not good. Dioxins, Mercury, NOX, SO2, CO2. Shelve it like the gas cars and gas golf carts. Time to take our heads out of the sand.

[jmaccallum]

What does he mean by the "near future"? In the last quarter, electric vehicles accounted for only 4.5 percent of vehicle sales in the US. So, 95.5 percent of the new vehicles rolling out of dealerships are gas vehicles. Almost all of those new vehicles will still be on the road 20 years from now unless they are banned. Don't you think it is way too premature to be predicting that they will be in the Smithsonian in the near future? Think about it.

The numbers will go up exponentially as consumers realize the differential in cost of thrust from electric versus gas. Of course “near” future is subjective and therefore open to discussion. And as the integration to electric occurs, the significant cost differential may wane depending upon methods and generation capability’s. However, at that time I feel it will be a moot point.

[retiredguy123]

Yes, and it’s not good. Dioxins, Mercury, NOX, SO2, CO2. Shelve it like the gas cars and gas golf carts. Time to take our heads out of the sand.
I disagree. People with common sense do not have their heads in the sand. A science geek PhD probably receives his income from the taxpayers. He doesn't need to live in the real world. Economic prosperity has created a better and healthier living environment for billions of people way more than any environmentalist ever will. We need to balance the economic impact of replacing gas vehicles with electric. We are decades away from making a transition to electric in a way that will not bankrupt the country.

[jmaccallum]

You have a decent point. I don't think you can discount all the internal combustion engine pollution from the first one to the present.

However, think about where electricity comes from;

Coal -- no need to explain after seeing the flat topped mountains of WV, or the black lung of middle-aged deep-ground miners.

Nuclear -- look what happens when something goes wrong -- 3 Mile Island, Fukushima, Chernobyl, etc. Even when all goes well, there is material that must transported out west and kept for many lifetimes in caves. Heaven forbid if sometimes causes those containers to leach.

Wind -- another good choice, but it is dependent on nature. Also requires maintenance as well as impacts on birds and the hum of the turbine on humans.

Trash -- yeah, I am told my trash goes to producing energy via turbine revolution. Still hurts to throw away cardboard and aluminum cans.

Solar -- this is a good local option, but the energy must be stored and that is an ecological mess with batteries. Solar also has high $ cost of entry that take nearly the entire life-cycle of the panel to break even. Solar take resources to produce the panel and store the energy.

Shortages already being experienced for renewables.

Sand for panels and chips
Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html)

Cobalt and Lithium for battery storage
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/

There is nothing great about energy creation, no matter the method.

I have a gas cart and a battery lawnmower. I feel neither has a superiority over the other -- just a different dirty means to produce the same thrust.

Yes, all of these are issues. However, the bottom line is it takes an electric vehicle less than half the cost of a gas vehicle to accomplish the same thing (for a golf cart it is a third of gas). That being the case, even with all the negatives you point out, only half of the energy would need be produced. Big step in the right direction, while work is continuing on the details.

[camaguey48]

I plan to switch over the same month Air Force One goes electric and the presidential motorcade is all electric
Right. I can't wait to get on those electric 767's for a transatlantic flight. But....should I be worried?

[Papa_lecki]

Right. I can't wait to get on those electric 767's for a transatlantic flight. But....should I be worried?

That would only be for us commoners - Al Gore and Bono still get to fly on their private jets.

[jmaccallum]

I plan to switch over the same month Air Force One goes electric and the presidential motorcade is all electric

Then you will be really late, and waste a lot of money. Ha! Never follow the government and never base your savings plan as a tax refund.

[spd2918]

Does he know our garbage is burned to provide electricity?

Florida burns coal.

[jmaccallum]

I disagree. People with common sense do not have their heads in the sand. A science geek PhD probably receives his income from the taxpayers. He doesn't need to live in the real world. Economic prosperity has created a better and healthier living environment for billions of people way more than any environmentalist ever will. We need to balance the economic impact of replacing gas vehicles with electric. We are decades away from making a transition to electric in a way that will not bankrupt the country.

No, it’s just around the corner. Just what I mean by heads in the sand. And it will be capitalistic ventures just as Tesla and the other automotive manufacturers that have announced changing to EV production rather than gas. You won’t be able to buy a new internal combustion automobile by 2035 or most likely earlier because nobody will be making them. And infrastructure changes will be capitalist, as gas stations change to charging stations, and homes come with built in charging ports. Lots of jobs. Embrace the change, man. It’ll be ok and it will be good. Cut our energy needs 20 - 35% plus, easy.

By the way, I’m an electrical and chemical engineer. Not an environmentalist, and I’ve never worked for any government.

[Michael G.]

Here's a post that will never be solved, so have a beer and take a seat, and all the reply's will be with you shortly.

[retiredguy123]

No, it’s just around the corner. Just what I mean by heads in the sand. And it will be capitalistic ventures just as Tesla and the other automotive manufacturers that have announced changing to EV production rather than gas. You won’t be able to buy a new internal combustion automobile by 2035 or most likely earlier because nobody will be making them. And infrastructure changes will be capitalist, as gas stations change to charging stations, and homes come with built in charging ports. Lots of jobs. Embrace the change, man. It’ll be ok and it will be good. Cut our energy needs 20 - 35% plus, easy.

By the way, I’m an electrical and chemical engineer. Not an environmentalist, and I’ve never worked for any government.
Ok, I'm a mechanical and civil engineer. I'll bet you a dollar that there will be plenty of gasoline vehicles for sale in 2035, assuming we are still around to collect.

[jmaccallum]

Here's a post that will never be solved, so have a beer and take a seat, and all the reply's will be with you shortly.

Ain’t that the truth. The good Doctor has been using my user name to reply, as we sit sipping a cold one, because he ain’t got one, but he’s gonna have to get one. I’m not an engineer of nothing, so some of this thread is way above my pay grade. :bigbow:I have been enjoying the intellectual debate, though. :coolsmiley:

[retiredguy123]

Ain’t that the truth. The good Doctor has been using my user name to reply, as we sit sipping a cold one, because he ain’t got one, but he’s gonna have to get one. I’m not an engineer of nothing, so some of this thread is way above my pay grade. :bigbow:I have been enjoying the intellectual debate, though. :coolsmiley:
So, who do I collect my dollar from?

[jmaccallum]

Ok, I'm a mechanical and civil engineer. I'll bet you a dollar that there will be plenty of gasoline vehicles for sale in 2035, assuming we are still around to collect.

I’ll take that bet and will be around to collect. I hope. The winner along with $13 probably by then can get a latte at Starbucks.

[jmaccallum]

So, who do I collect my dollar from?

Last I looked, it ain’t 2035, yet.

[JMintzer]

No, it’s just around the corner. Just what I mean by heads in the sand. And it will be capitalistic ventures just as Tesla and the other automotive manufacturers that have announced changing to EV production rather than gas. You won’t be able to buy a new internal combustion automobile by 2035 or most likely earlier because nobody will be making them. And infrastructure changes will be capitalist, as gas stations change to charging stations, and homes come with built in charging ports. Lots of jobs. Embrace the change, man. It’ll be ok and it will be good. Cut our energy needs 20 - 35% plus, easy.

By the way, I’m an electrical and chemical engineer. Not an environmentalist, and I’ve never worked for any government.

You insult people by saying "they should pull their heads from the sand", but maybe you should pull yours down from the clouds...

13 years and no one will be selling ICE vehicles? Yeah, sure...

[Bilyclub]

Florida burns coal.

The Villages garbage goes right to the Covanta plant to be burned for electricity.

[JMintzer]

And don't forget, the electric grid is no where near strong enough to accommodate all of those new EVs...

California is currently telling people NOT to charge their EVs during certain times to help prevent Brown Outs...

[Papa_lecki]

100% EV will be great in a state where a hurricane comes through every 2 years and knocks out power for a week.

[Davonu]

Face it. Gasoline is the source of all evil in the world. Luckily, electricity appears out of nowhere with no negative environmental impacts or any other type of downside at all.

[tophcfa]

I’ll be driving internal combustion engine vehicles until either I’m gone or the Flux Capacitor can be optimized to harness the power of all the lighting storms in Florida.

[MorTech]

Carbon monoxide and NOx have been spewing from the earth for billions of years. Why doesn't your "science" guy know this?

Mother Nature ain't got no catalytic converter.

[Topspinmo]

You have a decent point. I don't think you can discount all the internal combustion engine pollution from the first one to the present.

However, think about where electricity comes from;

Coal -- no need to explain after seeing the flat topped mountains of WV, or the black lung of middle-aged deep-ground miners.

Nuclear -- look what happens when something goes wrong -- 3 Mile Island, Fukushima, Chernobyl, etc. Even when all goes well, there is material that must transported out west and kept for many lifetimes in caves. Heaven forbid if sometimes causes those containers to leach.

Wind -- another good choice, but it is dependent on nature. Also requires maintenance as well as impacts on birds and the hum of the turbine on humans.

Trash -- yeah, I am told my trash goes to producing energy via turbine revolution. Still hurts to throw away cardboard and aluminum cans.

Solar -- this is a good local option, but the energy must be stored and that is an ecological mess with batteries. Solar also has high $ cost of entry that take nearly the entire life-cycle of the panel to break even. Solar take resources to produce the panel and store the energy.

Shortages already being experienced for renewables.

Sand for panels and chips
Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html)

Cobalt and Lithium for battery storage
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/

There is nothing great about energy creation, no matter the method.

I have a gas cart and a battery lawnmower. I feel neither has a superiority over the other -- just a different dirty means to produce the same thrust.

Hydroelectric works great when enough water to drive turbine’s which will be big problem is desert states. So, with rolling blackout in summer now let’s add thousands of electric vehicle charging on top of that grid… I do agree electric or hydrogen alternate choice but, lots of problems to solve before they will be the majority.

[Topspinmo]

I’ll take conversations that didn’t happen for $100.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/16/push-mining-metals-electric-vehicles-splits-democrats-environmentalists/

“The most vocal opponents have trained their sights on Thacker Pass, a proposed lithium mine in Humboldt County, Nev. Environmental and Indigenous groups sued over the Bureau of Land Management's permit for the project last year, saying the mine could damage sacred sites and harm the climate, wildlife and groundwater.

Outside the courtroom, Max Wilbert, a leader of a group called Deep Green Resistance, has camped in the desert for months to protest the project's environmental impact. “The proposed Thacker Pass mine would destroy or degrade dozens of square miles of habitat and emit the carbon emissions equivalent to a small city,” Wilbert wrote in an opinion piece in the Reno Gazette-Journal last month.”

Are the mines, strip mining for the metals in batteries using solar powered equipment or equipment run on fossil fuels?

All mining done with fossil fuels, o you say those big dump truck are electric….but very big Diesel engine turns the Hugh generator to make electricity. I use to work in strip mining. Ever kilowatt was generated by Diesel engines.

[Jhnidy]

While I believe electric vehicles will play a big part of transportation going forward, you should realize that catalytic converters have been on gasoline cars since 1974. The catalytic system converts carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and NOX to nitrogen. So there are no toxic fumes coming from automobiles. Obviously, if a car is left running in a closed space, it will consume oxygen and drive up the carbon dioxide levels which will eventually cause you problems The gas powered golf cart is a different story as they have no catalytic converters - well, at least not yet.

The catalytic converter does not eliminate NOx and HC emissions. It reduces them to legal limits.

[shelley77]

You have a decent point. I don't think you can discount all the internal combustion engine pollution from the first one to the present.

However, think about where electricity comes from;

Coal -- no need to explain after seeing the flat topped mountains of WV, or the black lung of middle-aged deep-ground miners.

Nuclear -- look what happens when something goes wrong -- 3 Mile Island, Fukushima, Chernobyl, etc. Even when all goes well, there is material that must transported out west and kept for many lifetimes in caves. Heaven forbid if sometimes causes those containers to leach.

Wind -- another good choice, but it is dependent on nature. Also requires maintenance as well as impacts on birds and the hum of the turbine on humans.

Trash -- yeah, I am told my trash goes to producing energy via turbine revolution. Still hurts to throw away cardboard and aluminum cans.

Solar -- this is a good local option, but the energy must be stored and that is an ecological mess with batteries. Solar also has high $ cost of entry that take nearly the entire life-cycle of the panel to break even. Solar take resources to produce the panel and store the energy.

Shortages already being experienced for renewables.

Sand for panels and chips
Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html)

Cobalt and Lithium for battery storage
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/

There is nothing great about energy creation, no matter the method.

I have a gas cart and a battery lawnmower. I feel neither has a superiority over the other -- just a different dirty means to produce the same thrust.
Nothing great about energy production - except the fact that it allows us to live productive healthy lives. This yearning to go back to the preindustrial age when life was short, violent and brutish has always mystified me. But I guess the air was cleaner.

[Susan1717]

I had debated between the two also, but The Villages is so spread out, how far and long can you go on a charge with an electric golf cart? I also believe I’ve heard of dangers leaving them plugged in too long? I remember a few stories of electric fires? And then you have the destruction from batteries to our land fills. I agree with what someone earlier said that any form of energy has its pollution to the environment in some way. I guess it’s all a personal choice. I chose a gas cart. It seemed way easier and reliable for me.

[phansen2246]

Does he know our garbage is burned to provide electricity?
He doesn't realize that electricity for his cart in being made by pollution in someone else's backyard!

[B-flat]

I disagree. People with common sense do not have their heads in the sand. A science geek PhD probably receives his income from the taxpayers. He doesn't need to live in the real world. Economic prosperity has created a better and healthier living environment for billions of people way more than any environmentalist ever will. We need to balance the economic impact of replacing gas vehicles with electric. We are decades away from making a transition to electric in a way that will not bankrupt the country.

:bigbow:

[B-flat]

Nothing great about energy production - except the fact that it allows us to live productive healthy lives. This yearning to go back to the preindustrial age when life was short, violent and brutish has always mystified me. But I guess the air was cleaner.

Good points!

[Kgcetm]

Wow.

[OhioBuckeye]

Yea & I bet Al Gore & the billions he took from the tax payers to stop global warming I bet he’s really enjoying his electric jets & all of his electric cars, huh!

[OhioBuckeye]

Lots of good Pro’s & Con’s but I’ll stay with my gas cart for a while yet. I learned to much in my 38 yrs. at the auto company I worked at. So all I can say is, drive what you want!

[Ashley from UK]

Right. I can't wait to get on those electric 767's for a transatlantic flight. But....should I be worried?

You don't have to wait.... just get a rowing boat :ho:

[midiwiz]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

generalist and absurd take on it. we have the cleanest air in the world, so he needs this question to answer since in my experience PhDs are full of more pollution than a golf cart - How many golf carts does it take, running how long, to equal the pollution China has?

[Bay Kid]

What about all the burning from land clearing?

[Tom52]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

Hardly, a different perspective. Have seen the argument against ICE engines literally hundreds of times. More like trying to put a spin on an issue for an excuse to stir the pot yet again.

[MrFlorida]

And where do you think the electric comes from ? It's not clean to generate it.

[hypart]

Gas carts are noisy and smelly. Real glad I traded in my gas cart for an electric.

[Linco]

Anyone who has ever been in a tunnel here in TV with a gas-powered cart can identify with the comment "...it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” In addition, they are very noisy.

[ChicagoNative]

All you nasty consumers and earth-haters should walk or ride bikes. How’s THAT for “greener than thou”! ������

[Joe C.]

All manner of transportation has it's good points and bad points. In the whole scheme of things, I don't think the gas vs. electric argument is worth the breath we waste. Human ingenuity will figure another mode of transportation in the future to replace gas or electric, and in time the same argument for that new mode will pop up. In the meantime, life goes on.

[Luggage]

The perspective is this, it's the near future for our grandchildren, under $500,000 Vehicles were sold in the US as of about 12 million last year at the rate we're going which I'm sure they'll be more and more he'll still take about 25 to 30 years to get to 50% of current vehicles the electric and the rest being gas. Although they're making Long Haul trucks or containers, the vast majority of trucks the whole short and long-term are still going to be gas has the capacity and cost is so much lower for the initial capital investment

[PoolBrews]

What every battery proponent misses is which one has the worst long term effect? Sure, you can claim that electric doesn't create the emissions that gas engines do, but look up what the process that creates these batteries does to the environment. Tons of toxins are released when batteries are manufactured. Now look at what happens when the battery reaches end of life (especially lithium). They go in a landfill and contaminate the earth. Currently there is no way to reclaim any of the materials used in the battery (most of which are highly toxic), they can't be burned due to the toxicity of the fumes, so they get buried where all of these toxins leach into the earth.

I'm not against electric - but I am tired of hearing how they are so much cleaner and better for the environment - nothing could be further from the truth. When they get to the point where dead batteries can be fully reclaimed, then we'll truly have a safe reusable source of power. We're just not there yet.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Where the heck does he think electricity comes from? And about those electric batteries have you ever seen what a lithium mine looks like!

[blueash]

What every battery proponent misses is ... Now look at what happens when the battery reaches end of life (especially lithium). They go in a landfill and contaminate the earth. Currently there is no way to reclaim any of the materials used in the battery (most of which are highly toxic), they can't be burned due to the toxicity of the fumes, so they get buried where all of these toxins leach into the earth.

... When they get to the point where dead batteries can be fully reclaimed, then we'll truly have a safe reusable source of power. We're just not there yet.

Well I've got great news for you and I look forward to your next purchase to be a battery powered cart if your real objection was the false statement that lithium batteries get buried and are not recycled.

Tesla is now recycling 100% of the batteries it recovers from older cars reclaiming over 92% of the raw materials from those batteries. New commercial operations are doing the same for other batteries. Your statement that lithium batteries get buried is wrong.

Sustainability | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling)
"What happens to Tesla battery packs once they reach their end of life?
Unlike fossil fuels, which release harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse, materials in a Tesla lithium-ion battery are recoverable and recyclable. Battery materials are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain in the cell at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again... None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled.."

And as to non-Tesla ventures. Read this Mass. startup transforms old electric car batteries into better-than-new ones | New Hampshire Public Radio (https://www.nhpr.org/environment/2022-01-26/mass-startup-transforms-old-electric-car-batteries-into-better-than-new-ones)

[DrBrutyle109]

Your friend should ask for his money back where he got his PhD. There are also scientists that say the atmosphere will only change 1 tenth of one percent in 50 years. India is the biggest polluter on the planet. Do you think all of it stays there ?

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Bilyclub
Does he know our garbage is burned to provide electricity?

Florida burns coal.

WHAT?? It is fine to think Bono is mislead. It is fine to think Big Oil is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But it is not fine to make such easily fact checked big mistakes. When you write something that is so contrary to the truth [no you didn't mean it burns a little coal, you were disagreeing with the statement that garbage is a fuel source by saying coal IS the source of our electricity]

Have you never seen the nuclear towers on our west coast? Have you not read the inserts with your electric bill touting SECO solar fields? Did Tucker mislead you?

Here is the data from Florida [which does not include small source generation such as solar panels on your home]

[Baldbaron]

My favorite toxin-free, minimal expenditure, totally safe and reliable electricity power source - the TIDES. Submerged modern turbines can generate power on both incoming and outgoing tidal flows, with little visual footprint - and can safety screen debris while protecting marine life.

My second choice, and a notch up on the danger potential scale, is breeder reactors, which along with electricity deliver fuel for themselves and additional reactors. Yes, failures can occur, but we have come a long way from the failures of the past, and the hard lessons learned have drastically reduced the odds of future meltdowns.

Either of these power sources can keep the lights on reliably for a very long time, so our grandchildren and their grandchildren can be comfortable as they prosper in a (hopefully) peaceful world.

[Bealman]

All you nasty consumers and earth-haters should walk or ride bikes. How’s THAT for “greener than thou”! ������

You still eat, consume resources and generate waste no greener than thou pedastal for you......

[Regor]

Where the heck does he think electricity comes from? And about those electric batteries have you ever seen what a lithium mine looks like!

Nice picture of the The Diavik Diamond Mine!!!

[Bealman]

My favorite toxin-free, minimal expenditure, totally safe and reliable electricity power source - the TIDES. Submerged modern turbines can generate power on both incoming and outgoing tidal flows, with little visual footprint - and can safety screen debris while protecting marine life.

My second choice, and a notch up on the danger potential scale, is breeder reactors, which along with electricity deliver fuel for themselves and additional reactors. Yes, failures can occur, but we have come a long way from the failures of the past, and the hard lessons learned have drastically reduced the odds of future meltdowns.

Either of these power sources can keep the lights on reliably for a very long time, so our grandchildren and their grandchildren can be comfortable as they prosper in a (hopefully) peaceful world.

Fusion should be the goal to generate energy. Tides, solar, and wind energy damage too many natural environments for the return of the energy they produce. Filters, don't work well and the maintenance cost is ridiculous. How are the filters going to be made without petroleum and micro plastics entering the ecosystem?

Doesn't matter what side of "climate debate " you are on, there is no perfect solution. Look to the smallest footprint with largest energy return on environmental impacts and solar, wind, and tide are not the answer.

Read the science and not the political science.

[blueash]

Your friend should ask for his money back where he got his PhD. There are also scientists that say the atmosphere will only change 1 tenth of one percent in 50 years.

Those scientists may be telling you the truth and also lying to you playing on your lack of scientific knowledge or you are completely not understanding what they are telling you. If I remove 1 tenth of one percent of your body does that sound just great? How about if it is your pituitary, or your heart valves, or your eyeballs? Does that sound harmless to your body function?? Removing both testes from a 180 pound man changes his weight by 6 hundreths of one percent YMMV.

Now the science. The atmosphere of the earth is made of many gases. But 78% is nitrogen and 21% is oxygen. That only leaves 1% of the atmosphere that is not those two gases. 0.9% of the atmosphere is argon and nothing we are doing is changing the levels of nitrogen, oxygen or argon... 78 + 21 + 0.9 = 99.9%
leaving guess how much... your one tenth of one percent which is all the other matter in the atmosphere including the carbon dioxide, the water vapor, the ozone etc.

We could change our air by only 0.1% by just removing all the water vapor. Zero water in the air, thus no rain ever. Does that sound like it might be a huge thing, the death of all land based life on earth. Or just remove all the ozone which is measured in parts per million and watch us all die.

Now come back and tell me how just one tenth of one percent change in the air is not a huge and likely catastrophic change to our planet. Tell me how reassured you are that in 50 years we might only change our atmosphere by one tenth of one percent.

[Byte1]

What, no one has mentioned Hydrogen fuel cells? Apparently, using hydrogen powered engines result in them only expelling water into the environment. Not an expert, but I have seen videos or read articles about them being used in fork lifts and other equipment, as well as experimental motorcycles.

[Byte1]

I wonder how much our air quality will change when the next asteroid hits Earth.

[JMintzer]

Well I've got great news for you and I look forward to your next purchase to be a battery powered cart if your real objection was the false statement that lithium batteries get buried and are not recycled.

Tesla is now recycling 100% of the batteries it recovers from older cars reclaiming over 92% of the raw materials from those batteries. New commercial operations are doing the same for other batteries. Your statement that lithium batteries get buried is wrong.

Sustainability | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling)
"What happens to Tesla battery packs once they reach their end of life?
Unlike fossil fuels, which release harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse, materials in a Tesla lithium-ion battery are recoverable and recyclable. Battery materials are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain in the cell at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again... None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled.."

And as to non-Tesla ventures. Read this Mass. startup transforms old electric car batteries into better-than-new ones | New Hampshire Public Radio (https://www.nhpr.org/environment/2022-01-26/mass-startup-transforms-old-electric-car-batteries-into-better-than-new-ones)

Glad I got you to admit the difference between your previous claim of 100% recycled and the 92% they now claim...

Like I said, recycling 100% of the batteries doesn't mean the batteries are 100% recycled...

[JMintzer]

Nice picture of the The Diavik Diamond Mine!!!

Picture of a LITHIUM mine...

Energy Secretary says US wants ‘responsible’ lithium mining | Prescott eNews (https://prescottenews.com/index.php/2021/06/11/energy-secretary-says-us-wants-responsible-lithium-mining/)

https://prescottenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/lithium-mine.jpg

Not much difference, no?

[Boston-Sean]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:


That reads like one of those:

"My 4 year old just asked me why Putin wasn't satisfied with taking Crimea. I honestly don't know how to respond"

Tweets from some blue check.

Did your science geek friend discuss the damage done to the environment while producing and disposing of all those batteries?

[maistocars]

Time to get some new friends and time for that PhD guy to get off his climate change the sky is falling diatribe.

[danglanzsr]

Nuclear -- look what happens when something goes wrong -- 3 Mile Island, Fukushima, Chernobyl, etc. Even when all goes well, there is material that must transported out west and kept for many lifetimes in caves. Heaven forbid if sometimes causes those containers to leach.

Eventslike Three Mile Island resulted the release of no radiation detectable outside the fence around the installation. There were no deaths or injuries, outside the panic caused by the media.

Chernobyl cannot happen with modern nuclear reactors.

Fukushima was unfortunate but has caused no danger outside the reactor area.

The danger of waste products created by nuclear fission is essentially zero. Yes, the waste remains radioactive. It is currently stored in what are essentially swimming pools at the reactor sites. There is no detectable radiation outside the pools. There has never been a death as a result of the operation of a nuclear reactor in America.

Finally, the issue of long term storage and the possibility of leakage of radioactive waste is the most egregious misstatement of scientific knowledge imaginable. The danger of radioactive waste leakage thousands of years in the future implicitly assumes the human beings of that time are a bunch of ignorant savages. It is assumed they will have no idea how to deal with the problem. I am absolutely certain that the scientists and engineers in the year 3022 will have no problem dealing with leakage from nuclear waste containers.

[MartinSE]

Round and round we go, where it stops, no one knows.

[Papa_lecki]

Tesla is now recycling 100% of the batteries it recovers from older cars reclaiming over 92% of the raw materials from those batteries. New commercial operations are doing the same for other batteries. Your statement that lithium batteries get buried is wrong.

Sustainability | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling)
"What happens to Tesla battery packs once they reach their end of life?
Unlike fossil fuels, which release harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse, materials in a Tesla lithium-ion battery are recoverable and recyclable. Battery materials are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain in the cell at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again... None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled.."[/url]

So you shell out $60,000 to $125,000 for a new car and you get a recycled battery? Don’t think so.
The battery, on the car you shelled out 6 figures 5 years ago, reaches end of life, you replace it with a recycled battery. Honestly, it’s a brilliant business move by Elon. Margins must be crazy high on selling recycled batteries.

[JMintzer]

So you shell out $60,000 to $125,000 for a new car and you get a recycled battery? Don’t think so.
The battery, on the car you shelled out 6 figures 5 years ago, reaches end of life, you replace it with a recycled battery. Honestly, it’s a brilliant business move by Elon. Margins must be crazy high on selling recycled batteries.

No, much (not all) of the materials to CREAT a new battery are recycled from the old batteries, The lithium, cobalt, nickel, cadmium, etc, etc, etc... They don't pull out the old battery and slap it in a new car...

[BigSteph]

Consider me schooled -- I'm buying the first round, nukes for everyone!



Eventslike Three Mile Island resulted the release of no radiation detectable outside the fence around the installation. There were no deaths or injuries, outside the panic caused by the media.

Chernobyl cannot happen with modern nuclear reactors.

Fukushima was unfortunate but has caused no danger outside the reactor area.

The danger of waste products created by nuclear fission is essentially zero. Yes, the waste remains radioactive. It is currently stored in what are essentially swimming pools at the reactor sites. There is no detectable radiation outside the pools. There has never been a death as a result of the operation of a nuclear reactor in America.

Finally, the issue of long term storage and the possibility of leakage of radioactive waste is the most egregious misstatement of scientific knowledge imaginable. The danger of radioactive waste leakage thousands of years in the future implicitly assumes the human beings of that time are a bunch of ignorant savages. It is assumed they will have no idea how to deal with the problem. I am absolutely certain that the scientists and engineers in the year 3022 will have no problem dealing with leakage from nuclear waste containers.

[Blackbird45]

Whatever your views about the environment or getting out from under the thumb of other countries what will dictate the advance of EVs is economical. Last night there was a piece on the internet that charging stations are popping up all over the country. Consider the cost of opening a gas station vs. putting up a charging station. This will not only be private, but states will also be jumping in and setting them up on their road to add revenue to their coffers. Other than the battery as production advances the cost of manufacturing and EV vs. a gas vehicle will be cheaper. Just sit back and think of the process of getting gas in your car. Crude is drained from the ground it is refined then loaded onto a tanker to cross the ocean, then pump into holding tanks waiting for it to be pump into waiting truck to deliver it to a multi-million-dollar station to pump it back into the ground. Eletricity can be made and delivered more efficiently and cheaper. It's the money honey.

[dannymac54]

Great Book. It should be required reading in US high schools!

[dannymac54]

Atlas Shrugged Great Book. It should be required reading in US high schools!

[DaleDivine]

No, it’s just around the corner. Just what I mean by heads in the sand. And it will be capitalistic ventures just as Tesla and the other automotive manufacturers that have announced changing to EV production rather than gas. You won’t be able to buy a new internal combustion automobile by 2035 or most likely earlier because nobody will be making them. And infrastructure changes will be capitalist, as gas stations change to charging stations, and homes come with built in charging ports. Lots of jobs. Embrace the change, man. It’ll be ok and it will be good. Cut our energy needs 20 - 35% plus, easy.

By the way, I’m an electrical and chemical engineer. Not an environmentalist, and I’ve never worked for any government.

:ohdear::shocked::ohdear::shocked:

Batteries, they do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive production costs.
A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"
I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not. This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades.
There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions.
"Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's environment than meets the eye, for sure.

[Catalina36]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

WAIT A MINUTE, Who's running your Golf Cart in a garage with the garage door closed?? First off, you cannot run the engine of your Golf Cart sitting idle. You have to step on the gas pedal to start the motor and at the same time your clutch engages then you are moving forward or reverse. When you take your foot off the gas pedal the motor turns off. Second, who's running the motor of their car inside the garage with the garage door closed?? I would only hope that no one is doing that? I would think that most people open the garage door first and then start the car and then they proceed to move their car out of the garage. Most people drive their car into the garage going forward not backing in so the exhaust pipe is at the rear of the car so if you open the garage door first before starting your car the exhaust pipe is at the open end of the garage, you should be ok.

[GRACEALLEMAN]

Is your head deep in the sand looking at the mannequin President? Spit the sand out of your mouth...

[midiwiz]

Well I've got great news for you and I look forward to your next purchase to be a battery powered cart if your real objection was the false statement that lithium batteries get buried and are not recycled.

Tesla is now recycling 100% of the batteries it recovers from older cars reclaiming over 92% of the raw materials from those batteries. New commercial operations are doing the same for other batteries. Your statement that lithium batteries get buried is wrong.

Sustainability | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling)
"What happens to Tesla battery packs once they reach their end of life?
Unlike fossil fuels, which release harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse, materials in a Tesla lithium-ion battery are recoverable and recyclable. Battery materials are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain in the cell at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again... None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled.."

And as to non-Tesla ventures. Read this Mass. startup transforms old electric car batteries into better-than-new ones | New Hampshire Public Radio (https://www.nhpr.org/environment/2022-01-26/mass-startup-transforms-old-electric-car-batteries-into-better-than-new-ones)

ok so for those of us that say "look below the surface" .... this process is all nice and that but there it's not all "energy friendly" either. Let's not just gloss over the fact that no matter what you think you are doing there is always a side to it that acts against your effort. In this case the material is in a vat and further looks into the process rather than this fluff piece shows that you aren't getting away from emissions. so that's a "whatever"

I find it amazing that humans think they have the ability to change mother earth the way they think they can. This world has existed with all the human flaws for centuries, it will exist until it's had enough of the humans and shake them like a dog with fleas. So get over it all. gas vs electric don't care there is no argument anyone can bring forward that can substantiate either way is better than the other.

[NoMo50]

While driving an electric car or golf cart may make one feel better, and they're "doing their part" for the environment, stop to consider how that vehicle got to you. It was shipped via some conveyance burning fossil fuel!

Commercial trucks burn diesel fuel. Locomotives and mega cargo ships use electric motors as a final drive component, but those electric motors get their power from massive diesel engines that power generators. How about air transport? We are nowhere near seeing air travel ditching fossil fuels. In short, virtually everything we buy/own/consume relies on fossil fuels to get from Point A to Point B.

By all means, drive an electric vehicle if it makes you feel good. But at least be honest enough to acknowledge how that vehicle came to be, and how it got to you.

[Aviator1211]

Lithium now has plenty of range, is the same cost, has the same lifetime as gas (and the owner), is 90% cheaper to run (1 cent per mile versus 10 cents per mile), is much lower maintenance, is much less polluting (air and noise), and will have much better resale value in the future. There is really no reason left for going gas.

[Regor]

Picture of a LITHIUM mine...

Energy Secretary says US wants ‘responsible’ lithium mining | Prescott eNews (https://prescottenews.com/index.php/2021/06/11/energy-secretary-says-us-wants-responsible-lithium-mining/)

https://prescottenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/lithium-mine.jpg

Not much difference, no?

Now that's a nice picture of the Southern Cross Gold mine!

[irishwonone]

I disagree. People with common sense do not have their heads in the sand. A science geek PhD probably receives his income from the taxpayers. He doesn't need to live in the real world. Economic prosperity has created a better and healthier living environment for billions of people way more than any environmentalist ever will. We need to balance the economic impact of replacing gas vehicles with electric. We are decades away from making a transition to electric in a way that will not bankrupt the country.
Wow!! I couldn’t have said it better. What’s the rush.

[cphague]

You have to look at the whole production chain, not just what you see sitting in your garage or house. That electric vehicle or gas vehicle has to be built, maintained and disposed of. Do you know how much energy goes into making those batteries and how they are disposed of safely?

When my wife and I had kids, we were bombarded with the argument that we had to use cloth diapers as we were destroying the earth by using disposable. Then the whole process was studied and it was noticed that more energy was wasted cleaning those cloth diapers than in making and disposing of disposable.

Do you know how much water was used to make that beer you decided to drink? And also the leftover waste for producing it? The fertilizer that was made to grow the hops and other ingredients?

All we can do is the best we can do...but those that focus on one narrow aspect usually end up on the wrong side of a discussion.

[Blackbird45]

EVs and charging stations will become more profitable per investment, you can put whatever argument you can dream up, it's coming and you're not going to be able to stop it. The two arguments that holds any sense is the distance which is improving daily and the charging time. If you look at the charging time compared to gas car in the long run EVs might win out. If you are retired or a local worker, you probably do 40 miles or less. You get home plug in at night and never have to go to a gas station (time saved). You take a trip on 95 to N.Y. in the near future there will be charging station at every rest stops on the way. Now you could say at the very least it will take 18 minutes to get 80% charge on the best EV. But if you want to fill a gas car, you will have to exit 95, fill up and get back on, odds are that will probably take about 15 minutes. Gas car like it or not will fade out. It's the oil lamp vs. the light bulb.

[JMintzer]

Whatever your views about the environment or getting out from under the thumb of other countries what will dictate the advance of EVs is economical. Last night there was a piece on the internet that charging stations are popping up all over the country. Consider the cost of opening a gas station vs. putting up a charging station. This will not only be private, but states will also be jumping in and setting them up on their road to add revenue to their coffers. Other than the battery as production advances the cost of manufacturing and EV vs. a gas vehicle will be cheaper. Just sit back and think of the process of getting gas in your car. Crude is drained from the ground it is refined then loaded onto a tanker to cross the ocean, then pump into holding tanks waiting for it to be pump into waiting truck to deliver it to a multi-million-dollar station to pump it back into the ground. Eletricity can be made and delivered more efficiently and cheaper. It's the money honey.

Except we don't have the current capacity to deliver said electricity on a level even close to what will be needed...

If you have more than a few Tesla Superchargers on a cul du sac, you'll overload the transformer supplying said cul du sac...

[JMintzer]

Now that's a nice picture of the Southern Cross Gold mine!

Then blame AP. and Google The pic came from the article I linked...

[JMintzer]

Lithium now has plenty of range, is the same cost, has the same lifetime as gas (and the owner), is 90% cheaper to run (1 cent per mile versus 10 cents per mile), is much lower maintenance, is much less polluting (air and noise), and will have much better resale value in the future. There is really no reason left for going gas.

Once again, ignoring the pollution that goes into MAKING and CHARGING the batteries...

[Scbang]

The catalytic converter does not eliminate NOx and HC emissions. It reduces them to legal limits. In year 200, I heard a Honda engineer saying Honda Accord is made with 85% American parts ( higher than any of the vehicles made by US company ) and the air coming out of it is cleaner than the air going in. After 22 year, I hope they enhanced their claim since. It is a complex issue regarding how the electricity and/or hydrogen is generated ( wave, dam, wind, solar, diesel, coal etc.. )

Cheers!

[PurePeach]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

Does this brilliant geek PhD friend have any thoughts on what we’re going to do with all the lithium batteries that all these electric vehicles (of any kind) are going to be dumping after they are used up? And how about the expense of replacing them since the cobalt comes from Russia and China? Just asking. . . :shocked:

[Jsan143]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

What about the strip mining and toxic waste it takes to get the lithium out of the ground! From what I understand one of the richest areas is in New Mexico and we don’t even excavate it because what it does to the environment. But we can keep giving money to China to just strip mine over there and in Afghanistan where they have the mining rates. I guess that’s OK for a little blue bubble? Then think past the initial mining and manufacturing what are we to do with all those batteries when they reach the end of their life cycles? Before I retired I flew for a major airline and we were not allowed to carry lithium batteries on our aircraft, and all major airlines have the same restrictions, talk about hazardous material. Sounds like your PhD buddy is coming from a blue state and I hope he’s here to enjoy our Village and not change it! Party on brother!

[JMintzer]

Does this brilliant geek PhD friend have any thoughts on what we’re going to do with all the lithium batteries that all these electric vehicles (of any kind) are going to be dumping after they are used up? And how about the expense of replacing them since the cobalt comes from Russia and China? Just asking. . . :shocked:

They are beginning to recycle the metals used in EVs... "Beginning" to...

[Blackbird45]

So far, I have seen arguments about the environment, from strip mining to the pollution cause by producing electricity, that we do not have the structure to support all the EVs.

We life in a capitalize society, so even though we might not want to admit it. it boils down to the almighty dollar.

If the public finds it more convenient and less expensive to own and operate an EV it will happen and industry will meet the demand.

I’m sure, maybe not the same arguments, but just as many were made against the first cars in it's time. Why would anyone get in a slow dangerous machine that is limited in where it can go, when they have a trusty horse.

[Scbang]

Those scientists may be telling you the truth and also lying to you playing on your lack of scientific knowledge or you are completely not understanding what they are telling you. If I remove 1 tenth of one percent of your body does that sound just great? How about if it is your pituitary, or your heart valves, or your eyeballs? Does that sound harmless to your body function?? Removing both testes from a 180 pound man changes his weight by 6 hundreths of one percent YMMV.

Now the science. The atmosphere of the earth is made of many gases. But 78% is nitrogen and 21% is oxygen. That only leaves 1% of the atmosphere that is not those two gases. 0.9% of the atmosphere is argon and nothing we are doing is changing the levels of nitrogen, oxygen or argon... 78 + 21 + 0.9 = 99.9%
leaving guess how much... your one tenth of one percent which is all the other matter in the atmosphere including the carbon dioxide, the water vapor, the ozone etc.

We could change our air by only 0.1% by just removing all the water vapor. Zero water in the air, thus no rain ever. Does that sound like it might be a huge thing, the death of all land based life on earth. Or just remove all the ozone which is measured in parts per million and watch us all die.

Now come back and tell me how just one tenth of one percent change in the air is not a huge and likely catastrophic change to our planet. Tell me how reassured you are that in 50 years we might only change our atmosphere by one tenth of one percent.

One tenth of one percent of Cobra venom of your body weight will kill you in 30 seconds. So do global warming that melts iceberg. One country has already been vanished because of the rising sea level. Let's not discount one tenth of one percent.

Cheers!

[Scbang]

What, no one has mentioned Hydrogen fuel cells? Apparently, using hydrogen powered engines result in them only expelling water into the environment. Not an expert, but I have seen videos or read articles about them being used in fork lifts and other equipment, as well as experimental motorcycles. Hydrogen is good. Requires only small batteries and produces water vapor as exhaust. But generating Hydrogen still requires lots of energy which still may come from oil or other disputed sources.

Cheers!

[JMintzer]

One tenth of one percent of Cobra venom of your body weight will kill you in 30 seconds. So do global warming that melts iceberg. One country has already been vanished because of the rising sea level. Let's not discount one tenth of one percent.

Cheers!

And which country would that be?

[Scbang]

And which country would that be?
Kiribati. And ten more to go.. And more after that..
10 Countries That Could Disappear Due To Climate Change (https://earthandhuman.org/countries-expected-to-disappear/)

[ffresh]

Florida burns coal.

Facts about Florida
In 2019, Florida consumed less energy per capita than all but three other states, but it was the third-largest energy-consuming state overall and used almost eight times more energy than it produced.
Florida's many tourists helped make the state the nation's third-highest motor gasoline consumer in 2019, and the third-highest jet fuel user in 2020.
Florida is the second-largest producer of electricity after Texas, and natural gas fueled about 75% of Florida's total electricity net generation in 2020.
Florida's residential sector, where more than 9 in 10 households use electricity for home heating and air conditioning, consumes more than half of the electricity used in Florida, the largest share of any state.
In 2020, Florida surpassed Arizona to become fourth in the nation, after California, Texas, and North Carolina, in total solar power generating capacity.
Last Updated: December 16, 2021

United States - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/beta/states/states/fl/overview)

Natural gas-fired power generation has grown in Florida, displacing coal - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=41233)

Fred

[ffresh]

Yes, and it’s not good. Dioxins, Mercury, NOX, SO2, CO2. Shelve it like the gas cars and gas golf carts. Time to take our heads out of the sand.

Do you have a recent source for that data?


Waste-to-energy electricity generation concentrated in Florida and Northeast - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=25732)

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Monthly Electric Generator Report
At the end of 2015, the United States had 71 waste-to-energy (WTE) plants that generated electricity in 20 U.S. states, with a total generating capacity of 2.3 gigawatts. Florida contains more than one-fifth of the nation's WTE electricity generation capacity, and in 2015, Florida's Palm Beach Renewable Energy Facility Number 2 became the first new WTE plant to come online since 1995 and the largest single WTE electricity generator in the United States.

WTE plants account for a relatively small portion of the total U.S. electric capacity and generation, providing about 0.4% of total U.S. electricity generation in 2015. WTE power plants convert the combustible content of municipal solid waste (MSW) to energy. MSW contains biomass (or biogenic) materials like paper, cardboard, food waste, grass clippings, leaves, wood, and leather products, as well as nonbiogenic materials such as plastics, metals, and petroleum-based synthetic materials. The biogenic component of MSW makes up about 59% of the total tonnage, but because of a lower heat content (i.e., less energy value), it accounts for about half of the total net electricity generation.

In 2015, Florida and four states in the Northeast accounted for 61% of the total WTE power plant capacity in the United States, and they produced 64% of total U.S. WTE electricity generation.

WTE plants are primarily intended as a MSW management option, with electricity generation a secondary benefit. Burning MSW reduces the volume of waste by about 87%. The remainder is ash from air pollutant emissions control systems, ash from the combusted material, and noncombustible materials. About 90% of WTE electricity generation capacity was added between 1980 and 1995, when landfilling MSW was relatively expensive. In the early 1990s, as the mercury and dioxin emissions implications associated with combusting MSW began to be recognized, most existing facilities had to install air pollution control systems or be shut down, and the construction of new MSW-fired electric generation capacity came to a halt. Although Florida's Palm Beach facility is the first new WTE plant to come online since 1995, some WTE generation capacity has been added to existing WTE plants since then.

Based on the most recent estimates from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the United States produced about 254 million tons of MSW in 2013. EIA estimates that WTE plants burned about 29 million tons of MSW in 2015, of which 26 million tons were used to generate electricity. The remaining tonnage of MSW was either recycled, composted, or disposed in a landfill.

Fred

[jimjamuser]

While I believe electric vehicles will play a big part of transportation going forward, you should realize that catalytic converters have been on gasoline cars since 1974. The catalytic system converts carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and NOX to nitrogen. So there are no toxic fumes coming from automobiles. Obviously, if a car is left running in a closed space, it will consume oxygen and drive up the carbon dioxide levels which will eventually cause you problems The gas powered golf cart is a different story as they have no catalytic converters - well, at least not yet.
Cars have gotten cleaner since the 1950s and much US dirty manufacturing has been outsourced to China. But, we have only 1 planet with one atmosphere, not a US atmosphere and a Chinese atmosphere. i don't remember the words "global warming" being used in the 50s or anyone talking about GREAT chunks of ice dropping into the ocean in Antarctica.
.........So, what is the difference between 1950 and today? Electric cars and trucks would give a small boost to planet Earth versus gasoline vehicles.....small, but not very significant. The significance of gas golf carts is simply that they are such an affront and insult to aware, thinking humans because they are sissoo bad that they STINK.....literally when they go by you or you are behind them. Most people never notice that because their windows are up and their A/C s are on.
.........So, the difference between 1950 and today is POPULATION......both US and world. That is what is causing the icebergs to break off. In 1950 US population was about 125 million people - today it is about 3 times as much. And world population has multiplied even more. Population is rarely linked to Global Warming for some unknown reason. Overpopulation also causes wars as resources run out. Today we are worried about a life-changing war beginning, yet it will not be linked to population and increasing greed for more resources.
......It is fine to discuss the future of gasoline vehicles versus electric, but those changes will pale in comparison to larger planet-wide changes. Just better to be aware of the BIG, BIG picture.

[jimjamuser]

:ohdear::shocked::ohdear::shocked:

Batteries, they do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive production costs.
A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"
I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not. This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades.
There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions.
"Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's environment than meets the eye, for sure.
Great post. I would just add my opinion that advanced technology can be used correctly to benefit people. But, population compared to available resources should also be a consideration. That consideration is often overlooked.

[Vermilion Villager]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.



Hopefully your friend will live close by me. These are the kind of folks I'd like to meet. :pray:

[Papa_lecki]

Kiribati. And ten more to go.. And more after that..
10 Countries That Could Disappear Due To Climate Change (https://earthandhuman.org/countries-expected-to-disappear/)

Um - according to the internet, Kiribati is still a country - or did it just disappear this week?

Kiribati For Travellers – Kiribati National Tourism Office – Mauri .. Welcome to Kiribati! (https://www.kiribatitourism.gov.ki/)

[JMintzer]

Kiribati. And ten more to go.. And more after that..
10 Countries That Could Disappear Due To Climate Change (https://earthandhuman.org/countries-expected-to-disappear/)

Did you miss the "could disappear" in the article you linked?

[JMintzer]

Cars have gotten cleaner since the 1950s and much US dirty manufacturing has been outsourced to China. But, we have only 1 planet with one atmosphere, not a US atmosphere and a Chinese atmosphere. i don't remember the words "global warming" being used in the 50s or anyone talking about GREAT chunks of ice dropping into the ocean in Antarctica.
.........So, what is the difference between 1950 and today? Electric cars and trucks would give a small boost to planet Earth versus gasoline vehicles.....small, but not very significant. The significance of gas golf carts is simply that they are such an affront and insult to aware, thinking humans because they are sissoo bad that they STINK.....literally when they go by you or you are behind them. Most people never notice that because their windows are up and their A/C s are on.
.........So, the difference between 1950 and today is POPULATION......both US and world. That is what is causing the icebergs to break off. In 1950 US population was about 125 million people - today it is about 3 times as much. And world population has multiplied even more. Population is rarely linked to Global Warming for some unknown reason. Overpopulation also causes wars as resources run out. Today we are worried about a life-changing war beginning, yet it will not be linked to population and increasing greed for more resources.
......It is fine to discuss the future of gasoline vehicles versus electric, but those changes will pale in comparison to larger planet-wide changes. Just better to be aware of the BIG, BIG picture.

There are articles about global warning from 1900...

There was "climate change" with glaciers receding a million years ago, giving birth to the "Great Plains". THE most fertile farmland in the world...

Are you suggesting that was bad, as well?

[Scbang]

Did you miss the "could disappear" in the article you linked?
Oops, Kiribati and Tuvalu have lost 2 islands each. They have not completely disappeared yet. But they will soon.. sigh.. Can you imagine your country is going under the water and you are just waiting it to happen?

[JMintzer]

Oops, Kiribati and Tuvalu have lost 2 islands each. They have not completely disappeared yet. But they will soon.. sigh.. Can you imagine your country is going under the water and you are just waiting it to happen?

They lost two sand bars... Sand shifts over time. Always has, always will...

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked: Betty.Wong@flagstar.com

Where does he think that all of those fumes and gasses came from?

Our little blue dot may not be ventilated but it is a closed system. All of the fumes gasses and everything else on this planet, with the exception of moon rocks and perhaps some meteor rocks, came from this planet.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be changed. Fumes and gasses were other types or matter before they were fumes and gasses. They will eventually be changed to another type of matter by plant life. So although the planet is not ventilated, it is self cleaning.

Another point is that if we were to change all of the cars in this country to electric, it would only make a a small in the greenhouse gas emissions. Most greenhouse gasses are created by ships transporting goods across the oceans, planes and manufacturing.

That brings up another point. Carbon fuels are used in the process of manufacturing electric batteries. It's questionable whether fewer emissions are used in their manufacture than would be from a gasoline powered over its lifetime. In addition I understand that the disposal of these batteries creates a big problem for the environment.

I have a lithium powered electric cart by the way. My choice had nothing to do with the supposed damage to the environment that a few thousand gas golf carts would do.

[Lottoguy]

Then again people may also be looking at a hole in the ground where they mined for lithium. And saying "this is where people 100 years ago dug for an alternate energy and never filled the holes around our planet."

[MartinSE]

Betty.Wong@flagstar.com

Another point is that if we were to change all of the cars in this country to electric, it would only make a a small in the greenhouse gas emissions. Most greenhouse gasses are created by ships transporting goods across the oceans, planes and manufacturing.



Mostly agree with your post. The amount of green house gas exited by cars is estimated to be about 26% of all green house gas emissions.

Planes, trains, and cargo ships are major contributors. Power plants are another major contributor. It is gonna take a while to convert EVERYTHING.

So, while it is not the worst or most, as many people claim, it is a significant start. And it is something each of us can do to help our grand kids. But, it will not solve the problem. it is a step in the right direction.

But, that step will take decades, not years. So, as it is said, the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

[MorTech]

If you are wanting to blame some biological lifeform for climate...Blame termites. at least it would make more sense.

[Byte1]

If you are concerned about emission pollutants, then get a zero emission bicycle. The only pollutant emulating from an operating bicycle is flatulence from the operator.

[dhdallas]

Gas powered carts are after-sale money makers for dealers, cart mechanics, and parts suppliers/manufacturers. Gas cart engines are chock full of stuff that needs maintenance and can malfunction. Not to mention leaking gas, having to make trips to the fueling station, smelling like gas, a fire hazard, the price of gas, exhaust emissions, the noise, etc. Electric carts have very few (if any) components that need any upkeep and their range is fantastic. I have a 20 year old electric Club Car with 4 lithium iron phosphate 12v 100ah batteries and can go from one end pf TV to the other and back again with juice left over. My neighbors cart will go 80 miles on one charge. My cart is simplicity plus; 4 batteries, electric motor, the controller, and an external charger. Look under the seat of a gas cart; it is anything but simple! The internal combustion engine days are numbered. People are so resistant to change (especially as they get older). My father refused to buy any car that had front wheel drive. Don't buy a gas powered dinosaur. Go electric!

[tophcfa]

Look under the seat of a gas cart; it is anything but simple!

Hmmm, I look under the seats of both our gas carts all the time. What I see is an incredibly basic and simple engine and drive system. It takes me about 10 - 15 minutes once a year to do a complete tuneup on each cart. After 6 years I replaced the single battery on each cart, costing about $99 each. Other than that the only expense I had on either cart was a new drive belt for the Yamaha and a new alternator belt for the Club Car. Never a single breakdown on either cart in 7 plus years, have towed 4 dead electric carts, and never have to worry about spending who knows how much on multiple battery replacements.

[Spectreron]

Are you aware that a fully charged Tesla (250-300 miles of range) stores the energy equivalent of 4 gallons of gasoline. How many thousand miles of energy are wasted in every tank of gasoline. Internal combustion engines are great and well refined, but they are terribly inefficient. Recommended routine maintenance on most EVs is a grease job every 2 years and tire rotation. No $500 annual tuneup and oil changes (what happens to that dirty oil)? Something else to consider…every morning you start with a full charge, just like your cellphone, no weekly dirty gas station visits, ever. The extra time spent charging while traveling is more than made up by never having to go buy gas. Elon Musk recently said Tesla could easily add more range to their cars but it was unnecessary. The vast majority of drivers travel less than 100 miles a day, carrying the extra battery weight when it’s rarely needed is highly inefficient. Many, many people are woefully uninformed about EVs. Take some time and do a little research. They aren’t the terrible future some of you foresee, and they ARE the future. The Tesla Model Y will be the most sold car in the world this year, 2022, so how long until you get yours?

[JMintzer]

Are you aware that a fully charged Tesla (250-300 miles of range) stores the energy equivalent of 4 gallons of gasoline. How many thousand miles of energy are wasted in every tank of gasoline. Internal combustion engines are great and well refined, but they are terribly inefficient. Recommended routine maintenance on most EVs is a grease job every 2 years and tire rotation. No $500 annual tuneup and oil changes (what happens to that dirty oil)? Something else to consider…every morning you start with a full charge, just like your cellphone, no weekly dirty gas station visits, ever. The extra time spent charging while traveling is more than made up by never having to go buy gas. Elon Musk recently said Tesla could easily add more range to their cars but it was unnecessary. The vast majority of drivers travel less than 100 miles a day, carrying the extra battery weight when it’s rarely needed is highly inefficient. Many, many people are woefully uninformed about EVs. Take some time and do a little research. They aren’t the terrible future some of you foresee, and they ARE the future. The Tesla Model Y will be the most sold car in the world this year, 2022, so how long until you get yours?

If you are paying $500/year for a "tune up" for your car, you're getting ripped off...

Modern cars don't require that. My car is 11 years old and it's never had a "tune up"...

Ands used oil? It's recycled...

[Bilyclub]

Gas powered carts are after-sale money makers for dealers, cart mechanics, and parts suppliers/manufacturers. Gas cart engines are chock full of stuff that needs maintenance and can malfunction. Not to mention leaking gas, having to make trips to the fueling station, smelling like gas, a fire hazard, the price of gas, exhaust emissions, the noise, etc. Electric carts have very few (if any) components that need any upkeep and their range is fantastic. I have a 20 year old electric Club Car with 4 lithium iron phosphate 12v 100ah batteries and can go from one end pf TV to the other and back again with juice left over. My neighbors cart will go 80 miles on one charge. My cart is simplicity plus; 4 batteries, electric motor, the controller, and an external charger. Look under the seat of a gas cart; it is anything but simple! The internal combustion engine days are numbered. People are so resistant to change (especially as they get older). My father refused to buy any car that had front wheel drive. Don't buy a gas powered dinosaur. Go electric!

I've got nothing against electric carts, but the zealots who preach on TOTV is a another story.

[Topspinmo]

Gas powered carts are after-sale money makers for dealers, cart mechanics, and parts suppliers/manufacturers. Gas cart engines are chock full of stuff that needs maintenance and can malfunction. Not to mention leaking gas, having to make trips to the fueling station, smelling like gas, a fire hazard, the price of gas, exhaust emissions, the noise, etc. Electric carts have very few (if any) components that need any upkeep and their range is fantastic. I have a 20 year old electric Club Car with 4 lithium iron phosphate 12v 100ah batteries and can go from one end pf TV to the other and back again with juice left over. My neighbors cart will go 80 miles on one charge. My cart is simplicity plus; 4 batteries, electric motor, the controller, and an external charger. Look under the seat of a gas cart; it is anything but simple! The internal combustion engine days are numbered. People are so resistant to change (especially as they get older). My father refused to buy any car that had front wheel drive. Don't buy a gas powered dinosaur. Go electric!


That’s for the lecture, You’re opinion that’s it.

[Topspinmo]

If you are paying $500/year for a "tune up" for your car, you're getting ripped off...

Modern cars don't require that. My car is 11 years old and it's never had a "tune up"...

Ands used oil? It's recycled...


Cause have no clue.

[Topspinmo]

Are you aware that a fully charged Tesla (250-300 miles of range) stores the energy equivalent of 4 gallons of gasoline. How many thousand miles of energy are wasted in every tank of gasoline. Internal combustion engines are great and well refined, but they are terribly inefficient. Recommended routine maintenance on most EVs is a grease job every 2 years and tire rotation. No $500 annual tuneup and oil changes (what happens to that dirty oil)? Something else to consider…every morning you start with a full charge, just like your cellphone, no weekly dirty gas station visits, ever. The extra time spent charging while traveling is more than made up by never having to go buy gas. Elon Musk recently said Tesla could easily add more range to their cars but it was unnecessary. The vast majority of drivers travel less than 100 miles a day, carrying the extra battery weight when it’s rarely needed is highly inefficient. Many, many people are woefully uninformed about EVs. Take some time and do a little research. They aren’t the terrible future some of you foresee, and they ARE the future. The Tesla Model Y will be the most sold car in the world this year, 2022, so how long until you get yours?


Drop in bucket to over 2 billion plus internal combustion vehicles in world.


need to trade that MB, BMW, or anything other overpriced leased car why charging you 500 dollars, o wait you already done that for even more overpriced Tesla.

Let me know in few years when the batteries have to be replaced. O wait, won’t keep it that long.

[Spectreron]

I'm not a tree hugger and I don't preach EVs, I love the internal combustion engine, but I think there is something better now. I've done my research and I think EVs have turned the corner and will become the vehicle of choice in the next year or two. For example, Tesla is making 1 million cars a year and will hit a 2 million per year rate this year, yet. they are sold out until Oct-Jan of 2022. Tesla has 1.5 million preorders for the Cybertruck and Ford's electric F-150 will fly off the shelves. Every legacy auto maker is busting butt to develop EVs and batteries and vowing to go fully electric in the next few years. They must know something. Read a couple articles on the Mustang Mach-E, the VW ID4 or Tesla's Model 3 and Y. You might be surprised.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

They lost two sand bars... Sand shifts over time. Always has, always will...

Explain Venice Italy please.

[retiredguy123]

I'm not a tree hugger and I don't preach EVs, I love the internal combustion engine, but I think there is something better now. I've done my research and I think EVs have turned the corner and will become the vehicle of choice in the next year or two. For example, Tesla is making 1 million cars a year and will hit a 2 million per year rate this year, yet. they are sold out until Oct-Jan of 2022. Tesla has 1.5 million preorders for the Cybertruck and Ford's electric F-150 will fly off the shelves. Every legacy auto maker is busting butt to develop EVs and batteries and vowing to go fully electric in the next few years. They must know something. Read a couple articles on the Mustang Mach-E, the VW ID4 or Tesla's Model 3 and Y. You might be surprised.
In a year or two? 90 percent of EVs are being sold to people who have a garage. What about the millions of people who live in apartments and don't even have an assigned parking space? I don't have anything against EVs, but it will take a lot more time than a year or two.

[MartinSE]

In a year or two? 90 percent of EVs are being sold to people who have a garage. What about the millions of people who live in apartments and don't even have an assigned parking space? I don't have anything against EVs, but it will take a lot more time than a year or two.

More than a year or two for what?

The poster simply said it will be the vehicle of choice, not that it will replace every ICE. With 285 million registered vehicles in the US even at Tesla making 2 million per year, it will only take 150 years to replace them all. LOL!

With all the other automakers jumping on board now, it will happen quickly. Some will be flops, others will be great. As for the apartment dwellers, the apartment complexes will come up with solutions - like changing stations in the parking lot, as incentive for EV owners to move there. Other situations will find result in more opportunities for companies to make money.

Once there is money to be made, and a make to feed it, the adoption will be fast. But, even so replacing 285 million vehicles will take more than a few years - LOL!

[retiredguy123]

More than a year or two for what?

The poster simply said it will be the vehicle of choice, not that it will replace every ICE. With 285 million registered vehicles in the US even at Tesla making 2 million per year, it will only take 150 years to replace them all. LOL!

With all the other automakers jumping on board now, it will happen quickly. Some will be flops, others will be great. As for the apartment dwellers, the apartment complexes will come up with solutions - like changing stations in the parking lot, as incentive for EV owners to move there. Other situations will find result in more opportunities for companies to make money.

Once there is money to be made, and a make to feed it, the adoption will be fast. But, even so replacing 285 million vehicles will take more than a few years - LOL!
I guess I don't know what "vehicle of choice" means. Only about 3.5 percent of vehicles being sold are EVs. I don't think apartment complexes are going to do anything unless they are forced or paid to do it. And, most people buying new ICE vehicles, expect them to be on the road for at least 20 years or so. Almost everyone in The Villages has a garage, but only a small percentage have an EV. So, what will change in a year or so?

[JMintzer]

Explain Venice Italy please.

It's sinking. Measured at 2.75" for 1,000 years, and 9.44" over the last century...

Is Venice, Italy, Really Sinking? - WorldAtlas (https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-venice-italy-really-sinking.html)

[MartinSE]

I guess I don't know what "vehicle of choice" means. Only about 3.5 percent of vehicles being sold are EVs. I don't think apartment complexes are going to do anything unless they are forced or paid to do it. And, most people buying new ICE vehicles, expect them to be on the road for at least 20 years or so. Almost everyone in The Villages has a garage, but only a small percentage have an EV. So, what will change in a year or so?

Most of that was pretty good, I don't know where you came up with that 20 year number. But, I guess some 2002 models are still on the road, so maybe some will make it that long. I think most people buy every 10 or 11 years now? It used to be every 3 years.

But, anyway, a very fast way to change, assuming there are enough companies making them, is for the gas to go up[ to say $10/gal in todays money. Then anyone that wants to can keep on driving ICE others may be motivated to buy EV.

[MartinSE]

It's sinking. Measured at 2.75" for 1,000 years, and 9.44" over the last century...

Is Venice, Italy, Really Sinking? - WorldAtlas (https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-venice-italy-really-sinking.html)

Yup, they are also battling climate change/ocean rising.

[retiredguy123]

Most of that was pretty good, I don't know where you came up with that 20 year number. But, I guess some 2002 models are still on the road, so maybe some will make it that long. I think most people buy every 10 or 11 years now? It used to be every 3 years.

But, anyway, a very fast way to change, assuming there are enough companies making them, is for the gas to go up[ to say $10/gal in todays money. Then anyone that wants to can keep on driving ICE others may be motivated to buy EV.
I think that most cars are still on the road somewhere for about 20 years or so. Most car sales are used cars. Many older cars are shipped overseas and used even longer. I once sold a 15 year old Honda Accord to a guy who said he was buying old cars to be shipped to Africa. So, the new cars rolling off the assembly line today will be burning gasoline for a long time.

[JMintzer]

Yup, they are also battling climate change/ocean rising.

Uh, huh...

[ThirdOfFive]

I think that most cars are still on the road somewhere for about 20 years or so. Most car sales are used cars. Many older cars are shipped overseas and used even longer. I once sold a 15 year old Honda Accord to a guy who said he was buying old cars to be shipped to Africa. So, the new cars rolling off the assembly line today will be burning gasoline for a long time.
Good points.

I think that people assuming EVs for personal transportation are some sort of panacea are somewhat short-sighted. Not only is much of that electricity used to charge the EVs derived from Petroleum and natural gas products (60%) but much depends on WHERE you live. EVs for personal transportation will probably be used much more extensively down here than along the northern and central tiers of states. Aside from the fact that a whole lot of that battery power in EVs would be used keeping the occupants warm and the windows clear in the winter rather than translating into miles driven. Add to that the fact that batteries progressively LOSE power the colder it gets, and EV batteries are no exception to that. An article in the Irish Times (January 2022) puts the average loss of battery power in the winter at 20%, but that is in a UK winter, which are extremely mild compared to what you might face in Montana, the Dakotas, or Minnesota, where a loss of 50% or even more would not be unexpected.

So--yeah. Lots of work needs to be done. We won't stop burning petroleum products any time soon.

[Mrprez]

Here’s a novel way to get those old cars off the road..The government could set up a program to buy them all back. They could call it “Bills for Beaters” or some other clever name.

[JMintzer]

Seems like this "different perspective" is the very same perspective that's be re-hashed over and over again...

[MorTech]

Higher global temperature will cause higher atmospheric H2O and CO2 (just basic earth science)...The molecules of biological life... and turn the vast desert areas on earth into farmland...and make Greenland actually green.

https://www.kids-world-travel-guide.com/images/xdeserts.jpg.pagespeed.ic.tfNj48pHa4.jpg

I just prefer electric vehicles (especially golf carts) but have a real concern for battery thermal runaway.
However, you will have to pry my twin-turbo V6 from my cold dead hands.

[tophcfa]

Here’s a novel way to get those old cars off the road..The government could set up a program to buy them all back. They could call it “Bills for Beaters” or some other clever name.

Great idea, let’s add to the countries already unsustainable debt.

[MorTech]

A little know fact: Since the 1997 automobile model year, the emission systems are now actually cleaning the natural air of CO and NOx. Again, mother nature does not have emission systems cuz she is basically a bitch.

[JMintzer]

Here’s a novel way to get those old cars off the road..The government could set up a program to buy them all back. They could call it “Bills for Beaters” or some other clever name.

Or maybe "Cash for Clun..."

Hey, wait a minute!

https://c.tenor.com/wpdk4U4veaMAAAAC/robert-de-niro-you.gif

[BobnBev]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

9 out of 10 house/garage fires are caused by electric carts or their chargers. Sleep well tonight. Check out the recent house fire on Laurevel drive.

[Spectreron]

9 out of 10 house/garage fires are caused by electric carts or their chargers. Sleep well tonight. Check out the recent house fire on Laurevel drive.

Not even close to being true!

[UpNorth]

9 out of 10 house/garage fires are caused by electric carts or their chargers. Sleep well tonight. Check out the recent house fire on Laurevel drive.

9 out of 10 statistics like this are 100% made up.

[Topspinmo]

Here’s a novel way to get those old cars off the road..The government could set up a program to buy them all back. They could call it “Bills for Beaters” or some other clever name.

That already been done called cash for clunkers.

[Topspinmo]

Not even close to being true!


Ok 8 out of 10….:):ho:

[MorTech]

I "heard" it was actually 11 out of 10.

[JMintzer]

That already been done called cash for clunkers.

See post #137...

[Mrprez]

That already been done called cash for clunkers.

Sarcasm much? It might have “been done” but was it done efficiently and effectively so that it made any impact? IMHO, no.

[Topspinmo]

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric. :shocked:

Here review which brings up all good points and bad points on gas vs electric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdqF0jHQB0I

IMO either will work, but individual has to decide what best for them.

[Topspinmo]

See post #137...

Sorry can’t read doctors abbreviations….:1rotfl:

[Topspinmo]

Sarcasm much? It might have “been done” but was it done efficiently and effectively so that it made any impact? IMHO, no.

IMHO impact on the debt…….. now that some sarcasm…:)

[JMintzer]

Sorry can’t read doctors abbreviations….:1rotfl:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/4c/e9/ca4ce906f363a406eba5cd1562f106c8.jpg

[Reiver]

It's too bad your PHD friend isn't smart enough to obtain a functioning catalytic converter.