Ryobi 20 in battery self propelled II

[starflyte1]

Back again but with a new mower. This one starts and runs but the blade is not cutting all the time. It is w waste of time to try to mow.

Customer serviced is closed until Monday.

Any easy fix suggestions? This is very frustrating.

Thank you for any replies.

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.

[Two Bills]

Back again but with a new mower. This one starts and runs but the blade is not cutting all the time. It is w waste of time to try to mow.

Customer serviced is closed until Monday.

Any easy fix suggestions? This is very frustrating.

Thank you for any replies.

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.

Is the grass too long for motor?
Could try on shorter grass.

[villagetinker]

Is the mounting bolt tight to prevent the blade from slipping?

[zg1000]

Shear pin sheared?

[Michael G.]

Sounds like the on-going business of selling the general public some expensive unproven defective product,
while the manufacture sits back and says: 'Will, that didn't work, lets try something else".

[tophcfa]

Back again but with a new mower. This one starts and runs but the blade is not cutting all the time. It is w waste of time to try to mow.

Customer serviced is closed until Monday.

Any easy fix suggestions? This is very frustrating.

Thank you for any replies.

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.

Best suggestion would be to return it and get a gas mower.

[GOLFER54]

Sell your mower, hire someone to cut the lawn for you for a couple of bucks a month. When the humidity and heat comes more frequently you be glad you did.

[thevillages2013]

[QUOTE=starflyte

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.[/QUOTE]

Take that “mother” back . Did you order online or buy in a store. Not a great idea to buy items such as a mower online. If you take the piece of junk back to a store you can get some instant results

[DaleDivine]

Sell your mower, hire someone to cut the lawn for you for a couple of bucks a month. When the humidity and heat comes more frequently you be glad you did.

Where do you find a grass cutter for a "couple of bucks a month"?
:popcorn::popcorn:

[irishwonone]

Google the problem and there is an issue with the Ryobi. Take it back for credit and purchase a better proven brand. Ryobi is known for small cordless tools not lawnmowers.

[4litehous]

I just went through 3 lawn mowers Ryobi--battery run--350.00 model-due to the blades not working--(Home Depot) -they upgraded me to the next level--499.00---cuts great--there is something wrong from factory on that model--just happened last week..No I don't know the exact model 20 ?21?--just price-




Back again but with a new mower. This one starts and runs but the blade is not cutting all the time. It is w waste of time to try to mow.

Customer serviced is closed until Monday.

Any easy fix suggestions? This is very frustrating.

Thank you for any replies.

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.

[4litehous]

I just went through 3 lawn mowers Ryobi--battery run--350.00 model-due to the blades not working--(Home Depot) -they upgraded me to the next level--499.00---cuts great--there is something wrong from factory on that model--just happened last week..No I don't know the exact model 20 ?21?--just price-




Back again but with a new mower. This one starts and runs but the blade is not cutting all the time. It is w waste of time to try to mow.

Customer serviced is closed until Monday.

Any easy fix suggestions? This is very frustrating.

Thank you for any replies.

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.

[Janicepyatt]

I have been researching battery mowers.

The new Milwaukee battery powered mower is apparently super powerful, good enough for commercial..but will cost you quite a bit more than "a couple bucks a month". Have also seen the E Go mower is good (not as powerful as M) for residential yards and costs less than the Milwaukee.

I'm currently using a 13 year old Honda and thinking another year might result in more advancements in battery powered mowers. Plus, my Honda is running like a champ!

[Hape2Bhr]

Any chance the blade is mounted flipped over? So the cutting edges are not the leading edge.

[kendi]

Idk the answer to your problem. But if it turns out you need a new mower the battery powered self propelled cobalt works great on our St Augustine lawn. 2 years now and no problems.

[tophcfa]

I have been researching battery mowers.

The new Milwaukee battery powered mower is apparently super powerful, good enough for commercial..but will cost you quite a bit more than "a couple bucks a month". Have also seen the E Go mower is good (not as powerful as M) for residential yards and costs less than the Milwaukee.

I'm currently using a 13 year old Honda and thinking another year might result in more advancements in battery powered mowers. Plus, my Honda is running like a champ!

Keep the Honda, my 30 year old Honda mower is still running like a champ.

[OhioBuckeye]

I’ve been saying all along battery operating equipment isn’t the way to go. I bet that battery operating mower wasn’t cheap either wait until 2023 when farmers will be forced to buy electric farm equipment to buy a $900,000. Combine, to get a charge out in the middle of the field. John Deere are working on it now. Once they which over to electric they’ll be no going back! Well I’m sure your mower is under warranty, take it back!

[MartinSE]

Sell your mower, hire someone to cut the lawn for you for a couple of bucks a month. When the humidity and heat comes more frequently you be glad you did.

Woah! PLEASE give me a reference for ANYONE that will mow (and not kill) my grass for a COUPLE DOLLARS a month. We paid $90 to $120 per month for two years and got crap service. I then mowed the lawn for a few months, using a perfectly good DeWalt Electric Mower, until we found a private individual who does an excellent job and charges us $45/mth (we give him a significant tip to bring it up to something higher).

If you know someone that will mow my lawn for $2/mth - and do a good job, I will definitely pay a finders fee.

[MartinSE]

I’ve been saying all along battery operating equipment isn’t the way to go. I bet that battery operating mower wasn’t cheap either wait until 2023 when farmers will be forced to buy electric farm equipment to buy a $900,000. Combine, to get a charge out in the middle of the field. John Deere are working on it now. Once they which over to electric they’ll be no going back! Well I’m sure your mower is under warranty, take it back!

Here is that word "FORCED" again... sigh. Please instead of using code, tell us how some one is being FORCED to buy things?

And I use all DeWalt electric tools (sanders, routers, drills, mower, steering edger, etc etc etc.) So that I have a set of batteries that work on all of them. And they are PERFECT. Stunningly good and better than my previous gas equivalent. When I had 11 acres to mow, I never considered an electric, but now with a postage stamp.

Maybe you are right, maybe I should buy a enclosed air-conditioned, Chrome plated V8 powered zero turn riding mower with a built in home theater entertainment system, refrigerator and glass pack exhaust system. Then me, and my neighbors have have drag races to see who can mow their lawn the fastest in the most comfort - I expect around 3 seconds will be attainable.

Sorry for the sarcasm, I guess I see so many arguments telling everyone that uses electric anything how wrong they are. It has progressed to just being funny.

Kind of like getting a chuckle when I see a Ferrari standing in Traffic on the I5 in LA.

[jimjamuser]

Best suggestion would be to return it and get a gas mower.
Electric lawnmowers rock.

[jimjamuser]

Sell your mower, hire someone to cut the lawn for you for a couple of bucks a month. When the humidity and heat comes more frequently you be glad you did.
The lots are small and we have many retired residents that should have enough time to mow their own lawns. Electric push mowers are ideal for getting some exercise. They are nice and QUIET and start instantly every time. You can pick cool times in the morning or late evening if you are worried about the sun and too much heat.
You can decrease the area of grass to be cut by making a rock garden or rock circles around trees - showing increased creativity and uniqueness. Make sure to get "mommy-may-I" permission to do this.

[jimjamuser]

Google the problem and there is an issue with the Ryobi. Take it back for credit and purchase a better proven brand. Ryobi is known for small cordless tools not lawnmowers.
I have had good luck with KOBALT mowers.

[jimjamuser]

I’ve been saying all along battery operating equipment isn’t the way to go. I bet that battery operating mower wasn’t cheap either wait until 2023 when farmers will be forced to buy electric farm equipment to buy a $900,000. Combine, to get a charge out in the middle of the field. John Deere are working on it now. Once they which over to electric they’ll be no going back! Well I’m sure your mower is under warranty, take it back!
DC electric motors have high torque capability and other advantages over gas engines. Such as not having pistons flopping back and forth. And the creepy cheap diaphragm carburetor on gas lawnmowers is a design waiting to fail. Not sure if they use injectors now, but those could gum up. Honda makes quality equipment. But, the future is electric and many consumers are slow to respond to any changes.

[MartinSE]

But, the future is electric and many consumers are slow to respond to any changes.

Can I assume you Mastered in Understatement at College?

[jimjamuser]

Here is that word "FORCED" again... sigh. Please instead of using code, tell us how some one is being FORCED to buy things?

And I use all DeWalt electric tools (sanders, routers, drills, mower, steering edger, etc etc etc.) So that I have a set of batteries that work on all of them. And they are PERFECT. Stunningly good and better than my previous gas equivalent. When I had 11 acres to mow, I never considered an electric, but now with a postage stamp.

Maybe you are right, maybe I should buy a enclosed air-conditioned, Chrome plated V8 powered zero turn riding mower with a built in home theater entertainment system, refrigerator and glass pack exhaust system. Then me, and my neighbors have have drag races to see who can mow their lawn the fastest in the most comfort - I expect around 3 seconds will be attainable.

Sorry for the sarcasm, I guess I see so many arguments telling everyone that uses electric anything how wrong they are. It has progressed to just being funny.

Kind of like getting a chuckle when I see a Ferrari standing in Traffic on the I5 in LA.
DeWalt makes quality battery-powered equipment. I liked the sarcasm. And we DO have postage size yards. I would cut a 1-acre yard up north with a push-type early battery-powered lawnmower, no problem because I was 10 years younger then. So, it was just a fun exercise for me then. And I saved a lot of money using electricity rather than gas. Today, gas prices are much higher and could go up....way up....with world problems.

[jimjamuser]

Can I assume you Mastered in Understatement at College?
Yes, I took a class in Mild Sarcasm. It changed my life......many pretty and witty co-eds loved that class.

[MartinSE]

DC electric motors have high torque capability and other advantages over gas engines. Such as not having pistons flopping back and forth. And the creepy cheap diaphragm carburetor on gas lawnmowers is a design waiting to fail. Not sure if they use injectors now, but those could gum up. Honda makes quality equipment. But, the future is electric and many consumers are slow to respond to any changes.

DeWalt makes quality battery-powered equipment. I liked the sarcasm. And we DO have postage size yards. I would cut a 1-acre yard up north with a push-type early battery-powered lawnmower, no problem because I was 10 years younger then. So, it was just a fun exercise for me then. And I saved a lot of money using electricity rather than gas. Today, gas prices are much higher and could go up....way up....with world problems.

Understand. On my 10 acres in N. Florida I only mowed the road easement along two sides. I measured it one and that was a 5 mile walk almost every week in in the summer (back and forth over and over 20 times for 1/4 mile).

Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now...

[thevillages2013]

Keep the Honda, my 30 year old Honda mower is still running like a champ.

Wait! Are you sure you don’t want a battery operated mower that when something goes wrong with it no one in this state (and it’s a great state) knows how to fix it. Toro gas mower here. Stihl trimmer, edger and blower.

[thevillages2013]

Electric lawnmowers rock.

Me thinks you spelled suck wrong

[lpruettusa]

I love my Ryobi 40V dual blade mower. Quiet, ease to operate and easy to store. I use it up north, not in FL.

The only issue that I have ever had is that one of the two 6amp batteries that came with the mower had one of the LEDs not lighting when fully charged. I don't know if it was just a bad LED bulb or one set of cells not charging and, therefore, lighting the light. Ryobi sent me a replacement 6amp battery and told me to keep the defective one as a spare.

I have a number of Ryobi tools for a several years and they've all worked great, too. Batteries have been interchangeable for generations of their tools, unlike some other brands that have occasionally changed battery mount style.

YMMV

[fdpaq0580]

Yes, I took a class in Mild Sarcasm. It changed my life......many pretty and witty co-eds loved that class.

Never understood why female students were called co-eds. Male students weren't called eds, were they?
😯???

[Lil GTO]

Return it and get an EGO their mowers are the best electrics available.

Mine does my corner lot takes about 45 minutes on one charge and has power left cuts the grass without problem


Back again but with a new mower. This one starts and runs but the blade is not cutting all the time. It is w waste of time to try to mow.

Customer serviced is closed until Monday.

Any easy fix suggestions? This is very frustrating.

Thank you for any replies.

The battery is fully charged but the mother seen very weak turning the blade.

[OhioBuckeye]

All I’m saying is only a few people will be able to afford electric cars they will be only for the elite not for everybody, including me. There’s charging stations you have to put in your home, not cheap, you can only go so far on a charge, then you have to use gas or spend an hr. waiting to batteries to charge & eventually you’ll be charge for that. Then getting new batteries, dealers say in about 10 yrs. to me that’s BS, I worked in a Engine Auto Plant for 38 yrs. Batteries to replace in your electric car will cost at least $8,000. today & as time goes on you know that price will go up a lot. Then you have to pay someone to dispose of the 10+ batteries. People don’t realize the expense of owning an electric vehicle. Now our president is pushing electric farm equipment to the market in 2023. Can you imagine how much food prices will go up. If you think this is a good thing, hooray! I’m not a fan of electric transportation, I might of worked in a U.S. auto plant for 38 yrs. & I agree I don’t know what’s kept secret behind closed doors but I do know more than the average American. Do what you want, but not me!

[jimjamuser]

Never understood why female students were called co-eds. Male students weren't called eds, were they?
😯???
At my college, the male students were called.............DEAD-EDS.

[MartinSE]

All I’m saying is only a few people will be able to afford electric cars they will be only for the elite not for everybody, including me. There’s charging stations you have to put in your home, not cheap, you can only go so far on a charge, then you have to use gas or spend an hr. waiting to batteries to charge & eventually you’ll be charge for that. Then getting new batteries, dealers say in about 10 yrs. to me that’s BS, I worked in a Engine Auto Plant for 38 yrs. Batteries to replace in your electric car will cost at least $8,000. today & as time goes on you know that price will go up a lot. Then you have to pay someone to dispose of the 10+ batteries. People don’t realize the expense of owning an electric vehicle. Now our president is pushing electric farm equipment to the market in 2023. Can you imagine how much food prices will go up. If you think this is a good thing, hooray! I’m not a fan of electric transportation, I might of worked in a U.S. auto plant for 38 yrs. & I agree I don’t know what’s kept secret behind closed doors but I do know more than the average American. Do what you want, but not me!

Well, let's see - I'm glad you know what goes on behind closed doors. It is sad you feel competed to insinuate something but not say, but since you won't, lets look at the FACTS starting with a little history.

Automobiles were invented in the 1700's - mostly steam-powered. ONLY the rich could afford them. Almost 200 years later (1885) Karl Benz invented the gasoline-powered automobile. Only the rich could afford them. Then, 23 years later, in 1908 Ford invented the Model T, only the middle class could afford them, but it launched the era of the ICE-powered automobile.

Electric automobiles were developed in 1800, and only the rich could afford them. They were very expensive and not very "good". When ICE became available, in 1908, electric cars pretty much fell out of favor because it was not able to complete on cost and range.

The point of my little history lesson is, that we have been here before. From Benz's (eventually became Mercedes Benz) invention in 1885 to Ford making it affordable in 1908 took about 23 years.

Tesla began in 2003 (about 20 years ago) and EVERYONE laughed. NO one believed it was possible for a small startup with no experience to make an automobile that could compete with the "big boys", much less an EV. The idea that an EV could be successful was at best a joke. Now, 19 years later Tesla has revolutionized the manufacturing process, has revolutionized the battery industry, and can not make them fast enough - they are currently back-ordered by almost a year. There IS demand.

Telsa just opened its GIGA factory in Texas which is a revolutionary factory unlike any other auto manufacturer in the world. It won't be the last. When Ford "invented" mass production with his factory, he became part of launching the industrial revolution. Musk is in some ways having the same impact today.

At this point, almost every auto manufacturer in the world has announced it will be selling EVs soon. Many already do, with some of those costing as little as $15,000 and less, witness Atomic Car, which is street legal and has a "usable" local range, but not so great for long-distance trips. There are a plethora of new models coming from China, Korea, Japan, and other countries that are CHEAP. Not so great quality, not so great range, not so great features, but very very affordable for running back and forth to work and the grocery store and taking the kids to school. VERY affordable to the middle and even in some cases the lower class. All of these alternatives in just 19 years.

To help speed the adoption, Tesla makes its innovative design available to any company that wants to compete with them.

Henry Ford was by far one of the most imperative inventors of the Industrial Revolution. His primary invention, the automobile, changed life as we know it. It enabled people to go wherever they wanted whenever they wanted. The automobile modernizes the transportation industry entirely.

There was MAJOR resistance to ICE automobiles, but eventually, they won. We are in the same situation now, We are on the onramp. EVs are here. supply and diversity will follow shortly as all the world's manufacturers jump on board. NO ONE IS forcing anyone or any company. There are incentives to make the change, but no force.

I won't bother correcting many of your statements, like having to pay to dispose of batteries. NO, they are recycled. not buried. And Musk again with Tesla is leading the way in innovation in designing batteries that are easier to manufacture and recycle.

Electric cars are here. There are affordable EVs for everyone already. That affordable alternative will not compete on specs with ICE cars, but in many cases, the EV is significantly less expensive to own and operate for LOCAL applications. Maybe those local applications will change the design of cities (ICE enabled suburbs, EV may bring back down towns?)

Some say the EV is not affordable, but every single time I have seen that statement, they then leap into 1000-mile journeys across the country. But, 1000-mile trips make up an extremely small percentage of the use cases for automobiles. So, tell me how does it make financial sense for a person to own a land yacht (Ford Expedition) to drive back and forth daily to work, school and shopping? I see, it seems, half of the cars in the Publix parking lot are SUVs. I expect MOST of those SUVs drove less than 5 miles to get to the store. Seriously? That is affordable? Maybe to you, but lower middle class and poor Americans would LOVE an EV they could afford - Atomic Car and the like are extremely enticing alternatives to ICE for everyday use. Plug it in every night, never pay for gas again, and reduce maintenance and operational cost.

One more thing that is important to point out. A LOT of people have shorted Tesla for a long time. Those people stand to (and have) lost billions of dollars. Many of those people spend a significant amount of money financing misinformation campaigns about EVs in hopes they can make the Tesla stock crash and hence clean up on the short positions. Be very careful where you get your FACTS.


Ignoring the political tint, "People don’t realize the expense of owning an electric vehicle. Now our president is pushing electric farm equipment to the market in 2023. Can you imagine how much food prices will go up?"

Actually, people DO realize the expense of owning an EV. Ask any Tesla owner, they are thrilled and gush about how INEXPENSIVE it is for Total Cost of Ownership.

John Deere is "electrifying" its product line. I expect they are doing it to make money, not because someone forced them to.

Police departments are buying Teslas and reporting they are less expensive for the department to buy and operate. So, they are ordering more.

I expect you IMAGINED how much food prices will go up. I expect the corporate offices are more interested in the bottom line than they are in what kind of technology is in their tractors. And they are interested in EVs.

The Trucking industry is literally drooling to get EV Tractors in their fleets. Combine EV tractor with Full Self Driving and the cost to the trucking companies drops massively. Sadly, that will cost almost 4 million truck driver jobs directly. But, it will not be the first time an entire job market is destroyed by an advance in technology. It is called "progress" it comes with a cost.

We could all still be driving horse-drawn wagons and wagon wheels would still be a major industry.

[WOW! I think I just set a new record for post length - even for my insanely long rambling posts...!]

[JMintzer]

Well, let's see - I'm glad you know what goes on behind closed doors. It is sad you feel competed to insinuate something but not say, but since you won't, lets look at the FACTS starting with a little history.

Automobiles were invented in the 1700's - mostly steam-powered. ONLY the rich could afford them. Almost 200 years later (1885) Karl Benz invented the gasoline-powered automobile. Only the rich could afford them. Then, 23 years later, in 1908 Ford invented the Model T, only the middle class could afford them, but it launched the era of the ICE-powered automobile.

Electric automobiles were developed in 1800, and only the rich could afford them. They were very expensive and not very "good". When ICE became available, in 1908, electric cars pretty much fell out of favor because it was not able to complete on cost and range.

The point of my little history lesson is, that we have been here before. From Benz's (eventually became Mercedes Benz) invention in 1885 to Ford making it affordable in 1908 took about 23 years.

Tesla began in 2003 (about 20 years ago) and EVERYONE laughed. NO one believed it was possible for a small startup with no experience to make an automobile that could compete with the "big boys", much less an EV. The idea that an EV could be successful was at best a joke. Now, 19 years later Tesla has revolutionized the manufacturing process, has revolutionized the battery industry, and can not make them fast enough - they are currently back-ordered by almost a year. There IS demand.

Telsa just opened its GIGA factory in Texas which is a revolutionary factory unlike any other auto manufacturer in the world. It won't be the last. When Ford "invented" mass production with his factory, he became part of launching the industrial revolution. Musk is in some ways having the same impact today.

At this point, almost every auto manufacturer in the world has announced it will be selling EVs soon. Many already do, with some of those costing as little as $15,000 and less, witness Atomic Car, which is street legal and has a "usable" local range, but not so great for long-distance trips. There are a plethora of new models coming from China, Korea, Japan, and other countries that are CHEAP. Not so great quality, not so great range, not so great features, but very very affordable for running back and forth to work and the grocery store and taking the kids to school. VERY affordable to the middle and even in some cases the lower class. All of these alternatives in just 19 years.

To help speed the adoption, Tesla makes its innovative design available to any company that wants to compete with them.

Henry Ford was by far one of the most imperative inventors of the Industrial Revolution. His primary invention, the automobile, changed life as we know it. It enabled people to go wherever they wanted whenever they wanted. The automobile modernizes the transportation industry entirely.

There was MAJOR resistance to ICE automobiles, but eventually, they won. We are in the same situation now, We are on the onramp. EVs are here. supply and diversity will follow shortly as all the world's manufacturers jump on board. NO ONE IS forcing anyone or any company. There are incentives to make the change, but no force.

I won't bother correcting many of your statements, like having to pay to dispose of batteries. NO, they are recycled. not buried. And Musk again with Tesla is leading the way in innovation in designing batteries that are easier to manufacture and recycle.

Electric cars are here. There are affordable EVs for everyone already. That affordable alternative will not compete on specs with ICE cars, but in many cases, the EV is significantly less expensive to own and operate for LOCAL applications. Maybe those local applications will change the design of cities (ICE enabled suburbs, EV may bring back down towns?)

Some say the EV is not affordable, but every single time I have seen that statement, they then leap into 1000-mile journeys across the country. But, 1000-mile trips make up an extremely small percentage of the use cases for automobiles. So, tell me how does it make financial sense for a person to own a land yacht (Ford Expedition) to drive back and forth daily to work, school and shopping? I see, it seems, half of the cars in the Publix parking lot are SUVs. I expect MOST of those SUVs drove less than 5 miles to get to the store. Seriously? That is affordable? Maybe to you, but lower middle class and poor Americans would LOVE an EV they could afford - Atomic Car and the like are extremely enticing alternatives to ICE for everyday use. Plug it in every night, never pay for gas again, and reduce maintenance and operational cost.

One more thing that is important to point out. A LOT of people have shorted Tesla for a long time. Those people stand to (and have) lost billions of dollars. Many of those people spend a significant amount of money financing misinformation campaigns about EVs in hopes they can make the Tesla stock crash and hence clean up on the short positions. Be very careful where you get your FACTS.


Ignoring the political tint, "People don’t realize the expense of owning an electric vehicle. Now our president is pushing electric farm equipment to the market in 2023. Can you imagine how much food prices will go up?"

Actually, people DO realize the expense of owning an EV. Ask any Tesla owner, they are thrilled and gush about how INEXPENSIVE it is for Total Cost of Ownership.

John Deere is "electrifying" its product line. I expect they are doing it to make money, not because someone forced them to.

Police departments are buying Teslas and reporting they are less expensive for the department to buy and operate. So, they are ordering more.

I expect you IMAGINED how much food prices will go up. I expect the corporate offices are more interested in the bottom line than they are in what kind of technology is in their tractors. And they are interested in EVs.

The Trucking industry is literally drooling to get EV Tractors in their fleets. Combine EV tractor with Full Self Driving and the cost to the trucking companies drops massively. Sadly, that will cost almost 4 million truck driver jobs directly. But, it will not be the first time an entire job market is destroyed by an advance in technology. It is called "progress" it comes with a cost.

We could all still be driving horse-drawn wagons and wagon wheels would still be a major industry.

[WOW! I think I just set a new record for post length - even for my insanely long rambling posts...!]

Yet you ignore that the electric grid cannot support all of these new EVs. Yes, in time, maybe they will, but that is DECADES in the future, if ever at all...

CA is currently having so much trouble supplying electricity that they have recommended that people NOT charge their vehicles at night, during peak electric usage...

Yes, technology moves faster today than in ye olden days, but so what? Past performance does not predict future earnings... :icon_wink:

You think farmers are chomping at the bit to go electric? No, it'll be mandated.

And using the Atomic car as an example of affordable EVs is a joke. It's usage is so limited as to be useless for families, or if you dare venture near a highway...

They are like the "Smart Car" that was supposed to take the country by storm. How many of those do you see on a regular basis? For urban living DINKs, they have a limited appeal, but elsewhere? They're a toy...

You complain about someone "imagining" price increases due to EV trucking, yet your entire post (save the history lesson, which is informative, but not apropos to today) is nothing but YOUR imagination, speculating what MAY happen in the future...

[MartinSE]

Yet you ignore that the electric grid cannot support all of these new EVs. Yes, in time, maybe they will, but that is DECADES in the future, if ever at all...

CA is currently having so much trouble supplying electricity that they have recommended that people NOT charge their vehicles at night, during peak electric usage...

Yes, technology moves faster today than in ye olden days, but so what? Past performance does not predict future earnings... :icon_wink:

You think farmers are chomping at the bit to go electric? No, it'll be mandated.

And using the Atomic car as an example of affordable EVs is a joke. It's usage is so limited as to be useless for families, or if you dare venture near a highway...

They are like the "Smart Car" that was supposed to take the country by storm. How many of those do you see on a regular basis? For urban living DINKs, they have a limited appeal, but elsewhere? They're a toy...

You complain about someone "imagining" price increases due to EV trucking, yet your entire post (save the history lesson, which is informative, but not apropos to today) is nothing but YOUR imagination, speculating what MAY happen in the future...

Well, it appears your rebuttal was focused mainly on infrastructure, society, and use cases remaining constant. With population movements yet, the industrial revolution resulted in a MASSIVE movement into cities, resulting in significant demand for "downtowns" to change and massive infrastructure changes (food grown thousands of miles away instead of in the local farm)

And the grid, an area I worked in for about 10 years. The grid is an archaic design that needs to go away. It is vulnerable to natural and terrorist attacks. Outages are common. It is NOT a reliable source of energy. It should be replaced with a distributed generation system (which was being investigated by APS and Universities for a long time), which I predict the EV movement into both civilian population and industry will drive. Technology for distributed generation is advancing. I have NO idea what/which will win. A few examples are fuel cells for the home (available in commercial production today), solar panels and storage batteries for the home (available in commercial distribution today), micro-nuclear plants in the home (in development), hydrogen (in development, some commercial products available today), geothermal and hydro (both available today), and wind (available today). Most are possible today, most are not yet practical. But, I can assure you power companies a not happy about the potential of losing their monopolies. And are doing their best to pass legislation, buy politicians, and have disinformation campaigns to denigrate those alternatives.

Uh, no, I didn't say FARMERS are chomping at the bits, I said large corporations, including the massive food industry, are interested only in the bottom line and don't care what engine is in the tractors and factories. I did say, John Deere, a sort of a not small name in that field is offering an electric drivetrain soon/now?

I did say trucking companies are "chomping at the bit" or more accurately - DROOLING to get EVs with FSD. And they are. The cost-saving there is massive. Kenworth and Freightliner are already committed to (are supplying?) electric drive trains.

Anyway, I agree, TODAY the grid will not support 300 million EVs on the road (the number of ICE vehicles registered in this country.) The good news is that TODAY's EV production is at (best case) a couple million per year. So, we have at least decades (your estimate) to "Fix" the infrastructure. Other countries are "fixing" it much faster than the US. I will leave it to the reader to noodle out WHY the US instead of leading the world in this area of new tech growth is, in fact, lagging behind the rest of the world.

And the difference between my post and the "imagine the cost" post, is I provided a rather lengthy discussion of WHY I think this is the direction of the future of EVs. And my predictions are based on what the various industries are saying and doing.

I guess the alternative to market driving the evolution of EV is that some cabal is FORCING people to buy Teslas. hmmm. maybe, maybe movies are inserting subliminal suggestions in-between frames. I heard "a lot of people saying" Musk has developed technology to compel people to buy Tesla's even if they don't want them.

And of course, my references to police departments are TRUE, my reference to pent-up demand for OTR Tractors is TRUE, and my reference to every Tesla owner loving their cars and gushing about savings is TRUE. So, for my "Imagine" there is some basis.

Thank you for your interesting post. It was a good rebuttal and made me think about what I had said and how I can improve my position.

BTW, the 1908 Model T was about $900 (about $30,000 in today's dollars) by 1915 that price was reduced to about $300 or $10,000 in today's dollars. Gasoline was not produced intentionally, it was a waste product of making kerosene. And anyone that wanted it bought it in 5-gallon cans at the local hardware stores. By 1920 there were federally funded concrete highways (very hard on horse hooves, the primary means of transportation for most of the middle and lower class at that time) and a ubiquitous network of "gasoline stations". Many were at that time still pumping the gas into a can and then pouring it into the car. Many people were filling 55-gallon cans and taking them home on their horse-drawn wagons to fuel the gas-powered cars.

There was a MASSIVE infrastructure change required. We invested almost countless trillions of today's dollars in infrastructure.

Today, we can't even pass a bill to fix leaky water pipes and falling down bridges around the country, so I expect the infrastructure changes required for EVs will be slower - here in the US. On that, I agree with you. Our current infrastructure can't deal with the massive adoption of EVs. But, I have faith in our predatory capitalism system. Once big business sees there is more profit in EVs Congress will suddenly "see the light" and pass massive infrastructure research and development projects which will lead to massive new good-paying jobs. And all of a sudden the ney sayers will start cheering. Cats and dogs will start sleeping together, and birds will sing, the sun will shine and ... well you get the idea.

But, that is my "dream". I hope to live long enough to see how it really turns out.

(OH and compare the Atomic Car to the Model T - AC, radio, power windows, roof, windows longer range, etc. - VASSTLY better)

[JMintzer]

Well, it appears your rebuttal was focused mainly on infrastructure, society, and use cases remaining constant. With population movements yet, the industrial revolution resulted in a MASSIVE movement into cities, resulting in significant demand for "downtowns" to change and massive infrastructure changes (food grown thousands of miles away instead of in the local farm)

And the grid, an area I worked in for about 10 years. The grid is an archaic design that needs to go away. It is vulnerable to natural and terrorist attacks. Outages are common. It is NOT a reliable source of energy. It should be replaced with a distributed generation system (which was being investigated by APS and Universities for a long time), which I predict the EV movement into both civilian population and industry will drive. Technology for distributed generation is advancing. I have NO idea what/which will win. A few examples are fuel cells for the home (available in commercial production today), solar panels and storage batteries for the home (available in commercial distribution today), micro-nuclear plants in the home (in development), hydrogen (in development, some commercial products available today), geothermal and hydro (both available today), and wind (available today). Most are possible today, most are not yet practical. But, I can assure you power companies a not happy about the potential of losing their monopolies. And are doing their best to pass legislation, buy politicians, and have disinformation campaigns to denigrate those alternatives.

Uh, no, I didn't say FARMERS are chomping at the bits, I said large corporations, including the massive food industry, are interested only in the bottom line and don't care what engine is in the tractors and factories. I did say, John Deere, a sort of a not small name in that field is offering an electric drivetrain soon/now?

I did say trucking companies are "chomping at the bit" or more accurately - DROOLING to get EVs with FSD. And they are. The cost-saving there is massive. Kenworth and Freightliner are already committed to (are supplying?) electric drive trains.

Anyway, I agree, TODAY the grid will not support 300 million EVs on the road (the number of ICE vehicles registered in this country.) The good news is that TODAY's EV production is at (best case) a couple million per year. So, we have at least decades (your estimate) to "Fix" the infrastructure. Other countries are "fixing" it much faster than the US. I will leave it to the reader to noodle out WHY the US instead of leading the world in this area of new tech growth is, in fact, lagging behind the rest of the world.

And the difference between my post and the "imagine the cost" post, is I provided a rather lengthy discussion of WHY I think this is the direction of the future of EVs. And my predictions are based on what the various industries are saying and doing.

I guess the alternative to market driving the evolution of EV is that some cabal is FORCING people to buy Teslas. hmmm. maybe, maybe movies are inserting subliminal suggestions in-between frames. I heard "a lot of people saying" Musk has developed technology to compel people to buy Tesla's even if they don't want them.

And of course, my references to police departments are TRUE, my reference to pent-up demand for OTR Tractors is TRUE, and my reference to every Tesla owner loving their cars and gushing about savings is TRUE. So, for my "Imagine" there is some basis.

Thank you for your interesting post. It was a good rebuttal and made me think about what I had said and how I can improve my position.

BTW, the 1908 Model T was about $900 (about $30,000 in today's dollars) by 1915 that price was reduced to about $300 or $10,000 in today's dollars. Gasoline was not produced intentionally, it was a waste product of making kerosene. And anyone that wanted it bought it in 5-gallon cans at the local hardware stores. By 1920 there were federally funded concrete highways (very hard on horse hooves, the primary means of transportation for most of the middle and lower class at that time) and a ubiquitous network of "gasoline stations". Many were at that time still pumping the gas into a can and then pouring it into the car. Many people were filling 55-gallon cans and taking them home on their horse-drawn wagons to fuel the gas-powered cars.

There was a MASSIVE infrastructure change required. We invested almost countless trillions of today's dollars in infrastructure.

Today, we can't even pass a bill to fix leaky water pipes and falling down bridges around the country, so I expect the infrastructure changes required for EVs will be slower - here in the US. On that, I agree with you. Our current infrastructure can't deal with the massive adoption of EVs. But, I have faith in our predatory capitalism system. Once big business sees there is more profit in EVs Congress will suddenly "see the light" and pass massive infrastructure research and development projects which will lead to massive new good-paying jobs. And all of a sudden the ney sayers will start cheering. Cats and dogs will start sleeping together, and birds will sing, the sun will shine and ... well you get the idea.

But, that is my "dream". I hope to live long enough to see how it really turns out.

(OH and compare the Atomic Car to the Model T - AC, radio, power windows, roof, windows longer range, etc. - VASSTLY better)

Then why did you try to compare the Model T to the Atomic car?

MLK aside, a dream is a wish your heart makes... :icon_wink:

[Keefelane66]

I repeat watch Who Killed the Electric Car.
who killed the electric car - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=who+killed+the+electric+car&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS943US943&hl=en-US&sxsrf=APq-WBv0nmBzCB75SXFBn2YV0OxzGsOS3w%3A1650224967303&ei=R29cYuiVEsKFwbkPodaYwAg&oq=who+killed+the+electric+car&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBAguECcyBQg AEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQg AQyBQgAEIAEOgcIIxDqAhAnOgcILhDqAhAnOgQIIxAnOg4ILhC ABBCxAxDHARCjAjoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBO gsILhCABBDHARCjAjoECAAQQzoNCC4QxwEQ0QMQ1AIQQzoICAA QgAQQyQM6BQgAEJIDOgUIABCRAjoICAAQgAQQsQM6CAgAELEDE IMBOggILhCABBCxAzoFCC4QgAQ6CAguEIAEENQCOgoIABCABBC HAhAUSgQIQRgAUOQPWOqBAWDCrAFoA3ABeACAAaADiAGfIJIBC jAuMjUuMC4xLjGYAQCgAQGwAQ_AAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp)

[MartinSE]

Then why did you try to compare the Model T to the Atomic car?

MLK aside, a dream is a wish your heart makes... :icon_wink:


I was just thinking about how the Model T was so admired and it was a really basic thing, that sold like hot cakes (why do hot cakes sell so well?) And you mentioned the Atomic Car (you brought it up) as a toy, and it being one of the first street legal almost real EVs (sot of like the Model T was in its day) and yet, it is MUCH more of a practical car than the Model T was. I agree, for it's time the Model T was a serious invention, unlike the Atomic Car which might be best described as "dumbing down" of a average car. But, I don't agree it is a toy. For someone working two less than minimum wage jobs supporting a husband and three kids, the Atomic car is a very viable option from a cost performance perspective. Might be a toy for you and me.

Agree on dreams...

[MartinSE]

I repeat watch Who Killed the Electric Car.
who killed the electric car - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=who+killed+the+electric+car&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS943US943&hl=en-US&sxsrf=APq-WBv0nmBzCB75SXFBn2YV0OxzGsOS3w%3A1650224967303&ei=R29cYuiVEsKFwbkPodaYwAg&oq=who+killed+the+electric+car&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBAguECcyBQg AEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQg AQyBQgAEIAEOgcIIxDqAhAnOgcILhDqAhAnOgQIIxAnOg4ILhC ABBCxAxDHARCjAjoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBO gsILhCABBDHARCjAjoECAAQQzoNCC4QxwEQ0QMQ1AIQQzoICAA QgAQQyQM6BQgAEJIDOgUIABCRAjoICAAQgAQQsQM6CAgAELEDE IMBOggILhCABBCxAzoFCC4QgAQ6CAguEIAEENQCOgoIABCABBC HAhAUSgQIQRgAUOQPWOqBAWDCrAFoA3ABeACAAaADiAGfIJIBC jAuMjUuMC4xLjGYAQCgAQGwAQ_AAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp)

I don't know what I am supposed to gain from a 2006 documentary. This may come as surprise, but that was after Tesla was founded. Guess they got Tesla wrong - hmm. Maybe you should look into the financing of that particular documentary. You might find it was funded by either OIL or GM/Ford.

That was, as I mentioned previously, "common knowledge" said about Tesla. Guess what Tesla is still here, I will go so far as to say EVERY auto manufacture in the world has committed to or is delivering EVs. So, I can look at a 2006 documentary about why EVs will/did fail, or I can look at what is happening to day, and say, yup, that was another person with an opinion about how MUSK could not do what they said he couldn't do.

[JMintzer]

I was just thinking about how the Model T was so admired and it was a really basic thing, that sold like hot cakes (why do hot cakes sell so well?) And you mentioned the Atomic Car (you brought it up) as a toy, and it being one of the first street legal almost real EVs (sot of like the Model T was in its day) and yet, it is MUCH more of a practical car than the Model T was. I agree, for it's time the Model T was a serious invention, unlike the Atomic Car which might be best described as "dumbing down" of a average car. But, I don't agree it is a toy. For someone working two less than minimum wage jobs supporting a husband and three kids, the Atomic car is a very viable option from a cost performance perspective. Might be a toy for you and me.

Agree on dreams...

Sorry, but YOU brought up the Atomic Car in post #35...

I only used it in response to YOUR post...

It's top speed is only 20 mph, so it's useless in many settings.

And you really think you can fit a family of 5 in an Atomic car?

Have you ever been in one? One fart and you'll blow out the windows! :1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

I don't know what I am supposed to gain from a 2006 documentary. This may come as surprise, but that was after Tesla was founded. Guess they got Tesla wrong - hmm. Maybe you should look into the financing of that particular documentary. You might find it was funded by either OIL or GM/Ford.

That was, as I mentioned previously, "common knowledge" said about Tesla. Guess what Tesla is still here, I will go so far as to say EVERY auto manufacture in the world has committed to or is delivering EVs. So, I can look at a 2006 documentary about why EVs will/did fail, or I can look at what is happening to day, and say, yup, that was another person with an opinion about how MUSK could not do what they said he couldn't do.

Due to CAFE MANDATES, car manufacturers MUST produce electric vehicles to meet said mandates.

Just like all of the mini economy boxes nobody wanted in the past, which sat, rotting at the ports, they were only produced to get the milage average up...

[biker1]

I saw some recent estimates of the incremental amount of electrical power needed if all cars were instantaneously replaced with EVs (I don't believe it included trucks). The amount was surprising small - about a 30% increase would be needed. This is encouraging as this is not an insurmountable amount and there is time (about 20 years) to ramp up electrical production. I say about 20 years because the transition will be slow as the average age of cars today is about 12 years and gas cars will still be produced 10 years from now. The bad news is that electrical production has been constant for the last decade at about 4T kWh.

Yet you ignore that the electric grid cannot support all of these new EVs. Yes, in time, maybe they will, but that is DECADES in the future, if ever at all...

[MartinSE]

Sorry, but YOU brought up the Atomic Car in post #35...

I only used it in response to YOUR post...

It's top speed is only 20 mph, so it's useless in many settings.

And you really think you can fit a family of 5 in an Atomic car?

Have you ever been in one? One fart and you'll blow out the windows! :1rotfl:

well let's see. I will accept I brought it up first, I don't recall now.

Actually, I see many references to the street legal version being capable of up to 35.

I think the use cases I mentioned going to work, going to shop, etc, typical daily use case for MOST Americans, only requires occupancy of 1 or 2.

Farting in any enclosed car with the windows closed is a bad idea. Some have activated charcoal, Tesla's have a biohazard filtration - how many ICE cars have biohazard protection built in? LOL!

I clearly stated it in no way competed with even economy cars, like Toyota Yaris on features, that it was in fact very limited. But, I do believe there is a sizable market from college students, to poor working class, and more for a not frills basic mode of transportation.

I owned about the most basic car available - 1970 VW Beetle - and loved it.

[JMintzer]

I saw some recent estimates of the incremental amount of electrical power needed if all cars were instantaneously replaced with EVs (I don't believe it included trucks). The amount was surprising small - about a 30% increase would be needed. This is encouraging as this is not an insurmountable amount and there is time (about 20 years) to ramp up electrical production. I say about 20 years because the transition will be slow as the average age of cars today is about 12 years and gas cars will still be produced 10 years from now. The bad news is that electrical production has been constant for the last decade at about 4T kWh.

Please cite this report...

[MartinSE]

I saw some recent estimates of the incremental amount of electrical power needed if all cars were instantaneously replaced with EVs (I don't believe it included trucks). The amount was surprising small - about a 30% increase would be needed. This is encouraging as this is not an insurmountable amount and there is time (about 20 years) to ramp up electrical production. I say about 20 years because the transition will be slow as the average age of cars today is about 12 years and gas cars will still be produced 10 years from now. The bad news is that electrical production has been constant for the last decade at about 4T kWh.

True, but I see no point in considering what to do to support instantly converting 300 million cars to EVs - that will take decades. I am sure you know by now I am all in on EVs. but we do need infrastructure improvements to make them practical in more use cases. And, luckily, if we start now, we can have those changes ready when production is ramped up to todays levels for ICE.

[biker1]

Calm down - I was not considering it as we can't instantly convert all cars to electrics. Just pointing out the actual energy requirements compared to what we can produce now.

True, but I see no point in considering what to do to support instantly converting 300 million cars to EVs - that will take decades. I am sure you know by now I am all in on EVs. but we do need infrastructure improvements to make them practical in more use cases. And, luckily, if we start now, we can have those changes ready when production is ramped up to todays levels for ICE.

[biker1]

Not a report, although there is probably some out there. I got the numbers from the following engineer who runs a Youtube channel on various topics associated with cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfyG6FXsUU



Please cite this report...

[JMintzer]

well let's see. I will accept I brought it up first, I don't recall now.

Actually, I see many references to the street legal version being capable of up to 35.

I think the use cases I mentioned going to work, going to shop, etc, typical daily use case for MOST Americans, only requires occupancy of 1 or 2.

Farting in any enclosed car with the windows closed is a bad idea. Some have activated charcoal, Tesla's have a biohazard filtration - how many ICE cars have biohazard protection built in? LOL!

I clearly stated it in no way competed with even economy cars, like Toyota Yaris on features, that it was in fact very limited. But, I do believe there is a sizable market from college students, to poor working class, and more for a not frills basic mode of transportation.

I owned about the most basic car available - 1970 VW Beetle - and loved it.

So, you want people who are struggling to purchase a 2nd car for work or errands?

And the VW Beetle was a limo compared to the Atomic... :icon_wink:

[JMintzer]

Not a report, although there is probably some out there. I got the numbers from the following engineer who runs a Youtube channel on various topics associated with cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfyG6FXsUU

Oh, god... Soooo many assumptions... Yes energy production increased greatly 40 years ago, but it is increasing at a much slower rate today. The same with battery advances... To compare the two is foolish...

[biker1]

He did an estimate of power requirements based on first principles and stated the assumptions. This is what scientists and engineers often do. I know, I am a retired research scientist. I already stated that power generation has been flat for the last decade. I see you haven't disputed his numbers. Provide your own if you can do better. However, I won't be back as I have no interest in reading any more obnoxious posts.

Oh, god... Soooo many assumptions... Yes energy production increased greatly 40 years ago, but it is increasing at a much slower rate today. The same with battery advances... To compare the two is foolish...

[noslices1]

Where do you find a grass cutter for a "couple of bucks a month"?
:popcorn::popcorn:

You need a time machine.

[JMintzer]

He did an estimate of power requirements based on first principles and stated the assumptions. This is what scientists and engineers often do. I know, I am a retired research scientist. I already stated that power generation has been flat for the last decade. I see you haven't disputed his numbers. Provide your own if you can do better. However, I won't be back as I have no interest in reading any more obnoxious posts.

It's a youtube video from some random guy...

[MartinSE]

So, you want people who are struggling to purchase a 2nd car for work or errands?

And the VW Beetle was a limo compared to the Atomic... :icon_wink:

No, I didn't say that. Many poor do not have a car at all, it would be a first. A car, even an Atomic would open a lot of job opportunities. In no way am I suggesting that it would be a solution for everyone, or even most. We really need to stop looking for a silver bullet and work on use case solutions optimized for each user.

An example of being POOR, I was homeless for a while back in the late 90's. I eventually managed to find work, it was NOT easy without a car, or a way to travel to the interview or the job. The job I eventually found was on the opposite side of Denver from where we were able to afford a motel room (once I had a job), so I used the bus system to get around. It took my 2 hours each day to get to work and get home. I was lucky. I was a software engineer, and the job I fairly found paid well enough that in a couple months I could afford an apartment, and a used clunker which reduced my travel time to 20 minutes each way. People working 2 or 3 jobs a day have almost NO time for anything else, including their children. (which is the subject of another thread and one reason for such negative education outcomes.)

So, I know first hand how even a crappy car, that is inexpensive to buy and operate can go a long way in helping the poor.

The VW cost more to operate than the Atomic (or some other cheap EV). It did not have AC, it had a habit of changing lanes when a large truck passed to close. It was NOT a limo by any stretch. And, to your earlier post (someplace) a family of 5 would have had problems with a VW Beetle. And yet back in 1972 was proclaimed the highest selling car in history, with a record 15 million copies sold. So, at least some people liked they idea of a basic bare bones inexpensive means of transportation.

I loved my Bottle, but I would never want another one. On the other hand, my wife and I have been considering some form of EV since MOST of our driving is within 15 miles or so, one way. Currently the Tesla is in the running for the potential of FSD. But, Atomic is a leading option since it is so cheap, we could get one, and sell it later when I get the Tesla and not be out very much. Atomic's are cheaper than some Golf Carts sold here in TV. And it does have AC, Power windows. radio, etc.

[Two Bills]

I think we should change the name of TOTV to the Martin and Mintzer Show!:icon_wink:

[JMintzer]

No, I didn't say that. Many poor do not have a car at all, it would be a first. A car, even an Atomic would open a lot of job opportunities. In no way am I suggesting that it would be a solution for everyone, or even most. We really need to stop looking for a silver bullet and work on use case solutions optimized for each user.

An example of being POOR, I was homeless for a while back in the late 90's. I eventually managed to find work, it was NOT easy without a car, or a way to travel to the interview or the job. The job I eventually found was on the opposite side of Denver from where we were able to afford a motel room (once I had a job), so I used the bus system to get around. It took my 2 hours each day to get to work and get home. I was lucky. I was a software engineer, and the job I fairly found paid well enough that in a couple months I could afford an apartment, and a used clunker which reduced my travel time to 20 minutes each way. People working 2 or 3 jobs a day have almost NO time for anything else, including their children. (which is the subject of another thread and one reason for such negative education outcomes.)

So, I know first hand how even a crappy car, that is inexpensive to buy and operate can go a long way in helping the poor.

The VW cost more to operate than the Atomic (or some other cheap EV). It did not have AC, it had a habit of changing lanes when a large truck passed to close. It was NOT a limo by any stretch. And, to your earlier post (someplace) a family of 5 would have had problems with a VW Beetle. And yet back in 1972 was proclaimed the highest selling car in history, with a record 15 million copies sold. So, at least some people liked they idea of a basic bare bones inexpensive means of transportation.

I loved my Bottle, but I would never want another one. On the other hand, my wife and I have been considering some form of EV since MOST of our driving is within 15 miles or so, one way. Currently the Tesla is in the running for the potential of FSD. But, Atomic is a leading option since it is so cheap, we could get one, and sell it later when I get the Tesla and not be out very much. Atomic's are cheaper than some Golf Carts sold here in TV. And it does have AC, Power windows. radio, etc.

Drive one, then get back to me... I have. A friend has one. I would NEVER take one on a regular road outside TV... It's a toy...

[JMintzer]

I think we should change the name of TOTV to the Martin and Mintzer Show!:icon_wink:

https://c.tenor.com/JNROTOuADA0AAAAC/gladiator-russell-crowe.gif

[OhioBuckeye]

You wasted a lot of time copying this. All I can say is buy one if you want. But most people can’t afford one. Just another govt. dream!

[MartinSE]

He did an estimate of power requirements based on first principles and stated the assumptions. This is what scientists and engineers often do. I know, I am a retired research scientist. I already stated that power generation has been flat for the last decade. I see you haven't disputed his numbers. Provide your own if you can do better. However, I won't be back as I have no interest in reading any more obnoxious posts.

Don't go, he is actually one of the better posters here.

Here is a link to EIA, showing production flattening dove rate past 1 or 2 decades.\

U.S. energy facts explained - consumption and production - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/)

[MartinSE]

Drive one, then get back to me... I have. A friend has one. I would NEVER take one on a regular road outside TV... It's a toy...

Cool, that is you.

That is why it is a good thing there are more than one source or product of a type built and sold - other people might like it. The market will decide. I prefer to have a wide variety of choices, to choose from

[JMintzer]

Cool, that is you.

That is why it is a good thing there are more than one source or product of a type built and sold - other people might like it. The market will decide. I prefer to have a wide variety of choices, to choose from

I find it odd that you continue to promote EVs (which you admit you don't own) and Atomic EVs (which you've never driven) as solutions...

Personally, when I finally retire and move to TV full time, I do plan to get either a hybrid or an EV (probably the Tesla Model 3, unless they come out with an AFFORDABLE convertible)... I just don't think they are the savior everyone claims them to be...

[MartinSE]

I find it odd that you continue to promote EVs (which you admit you don't own) and Atomic EVs (which you've never driven) as solutions...

Personally, when I finally retire and move to TV full time, I do plan to get either a hybrid or an EV (probably the Tesla Model 3, unless they come out with an AFFORDABLE convertible)... I just don't think they are the savior everyone claims them to be...

It is odd you are so adamantly against EV's since you state you don't own one. :)

I have stated several times we are "in the market". We will be getting an EV, the only questions are when and which. We are still deciding.

So, your comment then leads me to believe you think being in the market is an insufficient reason to have an opinion?

And for the record. PLEASE point out where I ever said EVs are saviors or solutions to some nebulous something that you don't identify. I am pretty sure I have not done that. I have implied strongly that EVs are the future of transportation (IMHO ) for many reasons, reducing pollution compared to ICE is just one of the reasons - please take note, I said REDUCING not solving.

[JMintzer]

It is odd you are so adamantly against EV's since you state you don't own one. :)

I have stated several times we are "in the market". We will be getting an EV, the only questions are when and which. We are still deciding.

So, your comment then leads me to believe you think being in the market is an insufficient reason to have an opinion?

And for the record. PLEASE point out where I ever said EVs are saviors or solutions to some nebulous something that you don't identify. I am pretty sure I have not done that. I have implied strongly that EVs are the future of transportation (IMHO ) for many reasons, reducing pollution compared to ICE is just one of the reasons - please take note, I said REDUCING not solving.

Did you bother to read what you quoted before responding?

Show me where I said that me being in the market diminished YOUR opinion. All it does is give you more information about MY opinion... Funny thing, those assumptions never work out well...

I specifically said I plan to get either a hybrid or an EV when I move to TV full time...

I just don't see them as the "end all", nor "the future" of transportation (at least not in our lifetime...)

[MartinSE]

Did you bother to read what you quoted before responding?

Show me where I said that me being in the market diminished YOUR opinion. All it does is give you more information about MY opinion... Funny thing, those assumptions never work out well...

I specifically said I plan to get either a hybrid or an EV when I move to TV full time...

I just don't see them as the "end all", nor "the future" of transportation (at least not in our lifetime...)

Ah, so I understand now, you can assume I see EVs as a savior or solution, but I can't assume that is a negative connotation?

[JMintzer]

Ah, so I understand now, you can assume I see EVs as a savior or solution, but I can't assume that is a negative connotation?

You're the one who claims EVs need to replace ICE vehicles... Not me...

[tophcfa]

Hey MartinSE and JMintzer, why don’t you two exchange phone numbers and have your extended conversations in private. It would be nice to not have just about every thread on TOTV dominated by two people.

[photo1902]

Hey MartinSE and JMintzer, why don’t you two exchange phone numbers and have your extended conversations in private. It would be nice to not have just about every thread on TOTV dominated by two people.

Truer words have never been spoken. Good grief, those two need to get a room.

[JMintzer]

Hey MartinSE and JMintzer, why don’t you two exchange phone numbers and have your extended conversations in private. It would be nice to not have just about every thread on TOTV dominated by two people.

Your ridiculous exaggeration aside, how 'bout you skip the posts we make? That would be nice, as well...

[MartinSE]

You're the one who claims EVs need to replace ICE vehicles... Not me...

There you go again, please find my post where I said EVs "NEED" to replace ICE?

[MartinSE]

Your ridiculous exaggeration aside, how 'bout you skip the posts we make? That would be nice, as well...

Wait a minute, are we being Canceled? Censored? hmmm...

[JMintzer]

Wait a minute, are we being Canceled? Censored? hmmm...

Nah, this ain't Twitter...

BTW, have you seen their new logo?

https://images.wolrddailytee.com/2022/04/tesla-twitter-logo-elon-musk-shirt-Wolrddailytee-shrits-trang.jpg

[MartinSE]

Nah, this ain't Twitter...

BTW, have you seen their new logo?

https://images.wolrddailytee.com/2022/04/tesla-twitter-logo-elon-musk-shirt-Wolrddailytee-shrits-trang.jpg

Cool, LOL!

Hmm, think if we post enough, all the crabby ones will leave and go to some other forum to escape are constant posting?

[fdpaq0580]

All I’m saying is only a few people will be able to afford electric cars they will be only for the elite not for everybody, including me. There’s charging stations you have to put in your home, not cheap, you can only go so far on a charge, then you have to use gas or spend an hr. waiting to batteries to charge & eventually you’ll be charge for that. Then getting new batteries, dealers say in about 10 yrs. to me that’s BS, I worked in a Engine Auto Plant for 38 yrs. Batteries to replace in your electric car will cost at least $8,000. today & as time goes on you know that price will go up a lot. Then you have to pay someone to dispose of the 10+ batteries. People don’t realize the expense of owning an electric vehicle. Now our president is pushing electric farm equipment to the market in 2023. Can you imagine how much food prices will go up. If you think this is a good thing, hooray! I’m not a fan of electric transportation, I might of worked in a U.S. auto plant for 38 yrs. & I agree I don’t know what’s kept secret behind closed doors but I do know more than the average American. Do what you want, but not me!

Help with the lawn mower???

[starflyte1]

Ys, back to the Ryobi mower. It is being returned. Thanks for the comments!

Everyone have a great day!:wave:

[ProfessorDave]

Well, it appears your rebuttal was focused mainly on infrastructure, society, and use cases remaining constant. With population movements yet, the industrial revolution resulted in a MASSIVE movement into cities, resulting in significant demand for "downtowns" to change and massive infrastructure changes (food grown thousands of miles away instead of in the local farm)

And the grid, an area I worked in for about 10 years. The grid is an archaic design that needs to go away. It is vulnerable to natural and terrorist attacks. Outages are common. It is NOT a reliable source of energy. It should be replaced with a distributed generation system (which was being investigated by APS and Universities for a long time), which I predict the EV movement into both civilian population and industry will drive. Technology for distributed generation is advancing. I have NO idea what/which will win. A few examples are fuel cells for the home (available in commercial production today), solar panels and storage batteries for the home (available in commercial distribution today), micro-nuclear plants in the home (in development), hydrogen (in development, some commercial products available today), geothermal and hydro (both available today), and wind (available today). Most are possible today, most are not yet practical. But, I can assure you power companies a not happy about the potential of losing their monopolies. And are doing their best to pass legislation, buy politicians, and have disinformation campaigns to denigrate those alternatives.

Uh, no, I didn't say FARMERS are chomping at the bits, I said large corporations, including the massive food industry, are interested only in the bottom line and don't care what engine is in the tractors and factories. I did say, John Deere, a sort of a not small name in that field is offering an electric drivetrain soon/now?

I did say trucking companies are "chomping at the bit" or more accurately - DROOLING to get EVs with FSD. And they are. The cost-saving there is massive. Kenworth and Freightliner are already committed to (are supplying?) electric drive trains.

Anyway, I agree, TODAY the grid will not support 300 million EVs on the road (the number of ICE vehicles registered in this country.) The good news is that TODAY's EV production is at (best case) a couple million per year. So, we have at least decades (your estimate) to "Fix" the infrastructure. Other countries are "fixing" it much faster than the US. I will leave it to the reader to noodle out WHY the US instead of leading the world in this area of new tech growth is, in fact, lagging behind the rest of the world.

And the difference between my post and the "imagine the cost" post, is I provided a rather lengthy discussion of WHY I think this is the direction of the future of EVs. And my predictions are based on what the various industries are saying and doing.

I guess the alternative to market driving the evolution of EV is that some cabal is FORCING people to buy Teslas. hmmm. maybe, maybe movies are inserting subliminal suggestions in-between frames. I heard "a lot of people saying" Musk has developed technology to compel people to buy Tesla's even if they don't want them.

And of course, my references to police departments are TRUE, my reference to pent-up demand for OTR Tractors is TRUE, and my reference to every Tesla owner loving their cars and gushing about savings is TRUE. So, for my "Imagine" there is some basis.

Thank you for your interesting post. It was a good rebuttal and made me think about what I had said and how I can improve my position.

BTW, the 1908 Model T was about $900 (about $30,000 in today's dollars) by 1915 that price was reduced to about $300 or $10,000 in today's dollars. Gasoline was not produced intentionally, it was a waste product of making kerosene. And anyone that wanted it bought it in 5-gallon cans at the local hardware stores. By 1920 there were federally funded concrete highways (very hard on horse hooves, the primary means of transportation for most of the middle and lower class at that time) and a ubiquitous network of "gasoline stations". Many were at that time still pumping the gas into a can and then pouring it into the car. Many people were filling 55-gallon cans and taking them home on their horse-drawn wagons to fuel the gas-powered cars.

There was a MASSIVE infrastructure change required. We invested almost countless trillions of today's dollars in infrastructure.

Today, we can't even pass a bill to fix leaky water pipes and falling down bridges around the country, so I expect the infrastructure changes required for EVs will be slower - here in the US. On that, I agree with you. Our current infrastructure can't deal with the massive adoption of EVs. But, I have faith in our predatory capitalism system. Once big business sees there is more profit in EVs Congress will suddenly "see the light" and pass massive infrastructure research and development projects which will lead to massive new good-paying jobs. And all of a sudden the ney sayers will start cheering. Cats and dogs will start sleeping together, and birds will sing, the sun will shine and ... well you get the idea.

But, that is my "dream". I hope to live long enough to see how it really turns out.

(OH and compare the Atomic Car to the Model T - AC, radio, power windows, roof, windows longer range, etc. - VASSTLY better)
Suggest you ignore JMintzer. He hides behind his computer - trying to prove how to himself how smart he is ("the sage" lol) - and how uninformed others are.

You wrote an insightful and educational post.

Those who cannot change their mind- can't change anything - they are the firehose trying to flood the imagination and passion about what is possible to make the world a better place.

[MartinSE]

Suggest you ignore JMintzer. He hides behind his computer - trying to prove how to himself how smart he is ("the sage" lol) - and how uninformed others are.

You wrote an insightful and educational post.

Those who cannot change their mind- can't change anything - they are the firehose trying to flood the imagination and passion about what is possible to make the world a better place.

Thank you for the suggestion.

I understand, I personally prefer to converse with people that disagree with me.

However, I don't deal well, with rude childish behavior - name calling, ridicule, etc.

[Two Bills]

Ys, back to the Ryobi mower. It is being returned. Thanks for the comments!

Everyone have a great day!:wave:

Mower? What mower?
How dare you butt in on this thread!:icon_wink:




Glad you got it sorted.
Amazing how diverted replies about lawn mowers can get!:)

[MartinSE]

Mower? What mower?
How dare you butt in on this thread!:icon_wink:




Glad you got it sorted.
Amazing how diverted replies about lawn mowers can get!:)

about lawn mowers was redundant :)

[JMintzer]

Suggest you ignore JMintzer. He hides behind his computer - trying to prove how to himself how smart he is ("the sage" lol) - and how uninformed others are.

You wrote an insightful and educational post.

Those who cannot change their mind- can't change anything - they are the firehose trying to flood the imagination and passion about what is possible to make the world a better place.

Now you're attacking me here?

You PM's weren't enough?

Oh and the "Sage" moniker? It's generated by the software, based on the # of posts you have, not by me... But anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know that...

But sure, hide behind "Professor" Dave (ironic much?) and I'll keep using my real name...