Bad Golf Ruling

[retiredguy123]

Did anyone see the video of Sam Burns hitting the ball into the water on the 16th hole at the Zurich Classic? His partner, Billy Horschel, continued to insist that the ball landed outside of the penalty area, thereby allowing them to drop the ball close to the green instead of going back to the tee. No one else, including the rules official, the announcers, or other players spoke up to either agree or dispute what Horschel said. Sam Burns, who made the shot, didn't say anything. But, what I saw was a ball that clearly landed inside the penalty area. Is this a situation where the player is always right, and the rules officials are afraid to make a controversial ruling?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Good question.
I think this is where the honor part of the game comes in.
Onus is on the player.

[ureout]

I watched the replay, it definitely bounced backward into the water but I couldn't tell exactly where it hit on dry land... from the angle of the replay I couldn't see the red line???

[fdpaq0580]

I watched the replay, it definitely bounced backward into the water but I couldn't tell exactly where it hit on dry land... from the angle of the replay I couldn't see the red line???

Play it where it lies. Get out the hip waders, Joe.
☺

[Topspinmo]

I thought you could drop ball where it crossed the line into the penalty area. This came up several years ago with tiger when he hit out of bounds where he dropped the ball. Either way it should 1 stoke for moving ball and 1 stroke for placing it. Or at least that now I understood rules. Way I understand rules you can only place ball on green after marking it. All other placements are strokes penalty, even if you address ball and it moves that’s stroke. But, been few decades since I played tournaments.

[retiredguy123]

I thought you could drop ball where it crossed the line into the penalty area. This came up several years ago with tiger when he hit out of bounds where he dropped the ball. Either way it should 1 stoke for moving ball and 1 stroke for placing it. Or at least that now I understood rules. Way I understand rules you can only place ball on green after marking it. All other placements are strokes penalty, even if you address ball and it moves that’s stroke. But, been few decades since I played tournaments.
It was only a one stroke penalty. But, the issue was that, if the ball landed inside the penalty area, and didn't cross the non-penalty area, it would have to be played from tee. But, if the ball landed in the non-penalty area, and then bounced into the water, it could be placed where it entered the penalty area, which was a few feet from the green.

My issue was that a player should call the ruling on himself, or ask the rules official to make the ruling. In this case, Sam Burns was the player who hit the ball into the water and he should have made the initial call, subject to being overruled by the official. But, his partner, Billy Horschel, became very vocal and strongly argued that the ball definitely landed outside the penalty area. The rules official was called, and Sam Burns and the two other players in the group just stood around and apparently expressed no opinion at all. They all allowed Billy Horschel to decide the ruling. Not a big deal, but I don't think it was handled correctly. I'm glad they didn't win the tournament.

[Topspinmo]

It was only a one stroke penalty. But, the issue was that, if the ball landed inside the penalty area, and didn't cross the non-penalty area, it would have to be played from tee. But, if the ball landed in the non-penalty area, and then bounced into the water, it could be placed where it entered the penalty area, which was a few feet from the green.

My issue was that a player should call the ruling on himself, or ask the rules official to make the ruling. In this case, Sam Burns was the player who hit the ball into the water and he should have made the initial call, subject to being overruled by the official. But, his partner, Billy Horschel, became very vocal and strongly argued that the ball definitely landed outside the penalty area. The rules official was called, and Sam Burns and the two other players in the group just stood around and apparently expressed no opinion at all. They all allowed Billy Horschel to decide the ruling. Not a big deal, but I don't think it was handled correctly. I'm glad they didn't win the tournament.

Agree, but IMO it is big deal especially it they beat team by one stroke when money involved.

[Hape2Bhr]

Looked to me that the ball landed in the hazard...oops penalty area, and bounced into the water. I could see the red line on my TV. I think he may have been able to take a drop further back, but not necessarily go back to the tee.

[GpaVader]

I think people are getting confused. If the ball goes OB, then you have to go back to where you hit the ball from and rehit with a penalty. With the situation here, it was a lateral hazard, which is indicated by the red line and stakes. If you hit the ball into that, you have the option of hitting out of the area with no penalty, or taking a drop from the point where you crossed into the hazard no nearer the hole. The only other people that can contest this, if they have no actual witness to where it went to the hazard, its usually up to the opponent to dispute what happened or where.

[retiredguy123]

I think people are getting confused. If the ball goes OB, then you have to go back to where you hit the ball from and rehit with a penalty. With the situation here, it was a lateral hazard, which is indicated by the red line and stakes. If you hit the ball into that, you have the option of hitting out of the area with no penalty, or taking a drop from the point where you crossed into the hazard no nearer the hole. The only other people that can contest this, if they have no actual witness to where it went to the hazard, its usually up to the opponent to dispute what happened or where.
Correct, but it appeared that the ball never actually crossed the hazard line, except back at the tee area, about 300 yards away. So, by determining that the ball landed outside of the penalty area, they were able to drop it a few feet from the green. A huge advantage.

But, the point is that golf is a game of rules and honor. Sam Burns was the guy who hit the ball into the water, and he is the one who should have either determined where the drop should be made, or ask a rules official to do it. Billy Horschel should not have interfered in that decision. Golfers can be held accountable for the decisions they make regarding the rules, and they can be penalized or even disciplined. And, the officials are there to enforce the rules. In this case, I think the rules official did not do his job, and Sam Burns wimped out. My opinion.

[thevillages2013]

Correct, but it appeared that the ball never actually crossed the hazard line, except back at the tee area, about 300 yards away. So, by determining that the ball landed outside of the penalty area, they were able to drop it a few feet from the green. A huge advantage.

But, the point is that golf is a game of rules and honor. Sam Burns was the guy who hit the ball into the water, and he is the one who should have either determined where the drop should be made, or ask a rules official to do it. Billy Horschel should not have interfered in that decision. Golfers can be held accountable for the decisions they make regarding the rules, and they can be penalized or even disciplined. And, the officials are there to enforce the rules. In this case, I think the rules official did not do his job, and Sam Burns wimped out. My opinion.
In most cases in a golf tournament you are playing with one or two opponents. With this format you are playing with a partner. Maybe they should institute video review for the partners format

[CartColor]

Where's a blimp when you need one?

[DaleDivine]

I think people are getting confused. If the ball goes OB, then you have to go back to where you hit the ball from and rehit with a penalty. With the situation here, it was a lateral hazard, which is indicated by the red line and stakes. If you hit the ball into that, you have the option of hitting out of the area with no penalty, or taking a drop from the point where you crossed into the hazard no nearer the hole. The only other people that can contest this, if they have no actual witness to where it went to the hazard, its usually up to the opponent to dispute what happened or where.

This would be the correct ruling.
:coolsmiley::coolsmiley:

[Paul1934]

All players have a responsibility to the field, to insure fair play by all players. Some, based on a few of the televised exchanges with officials, need to go back to Q School for a refresher on the rules.

[jabacon6669]

Going back to the tee is an option. However in this case you also have the option of going to where the ball last crossed the hazard line. Which would hav been back on the other side of the water, or on the side where he did drop it, if that was determined to have been where it last crossed. I believe any one in the foursome can make the call.

Correct, but it appeared that the ball never actually crossed the hazard line, except back at the tee area, about 300 yards away. So, by determining that the ball landed outside of the penalty area, they were able to drop it a few feet from the green. A huge advantage.

But, the point is that golf is a game of rules and honor. Sam Burns was the guy who hit the ball into the water, and he is the one who should have either determined where the drop should be made, or ask a rules official to do it. Billy Horschel should not have interfered in that decision. Golfers can be held accountable for the decisions they make regarding the rules, and they can be penalized or even disciplined. And, the officials are there to enforce the rules. In this case, I think the rules official did not do his job, and Sam Burns wimped out. My opinion.

[Marine1974]

Horschel and Burns were on the same team so either player can assist their team mate with rules or what they perceived happened to ball crossing hazard .

[jimh24444@gmail.com]

Correct, but it appeared that the ball never actually crossed the hazard line, except back at the tee area, about 300 yards away. So, by determining that the ball landed outside of the penalty area, they were able to drop it a few feet from the green. A huge advantage.

But, the point is that golf is a game of rules and honor. Sam Burns was the guy who hit the ball into the water, and he is the one who should have either determined where the drop should be made, or ask a rules official to do it. Billy Horschel should not have interfered in that decision. Golfers can be held accountable for the decisions they make regarding the rules, and they can be penalized or even disciplined. And, the officials are there to enforce the rules. In this case, I think the rules official did not do his job, and Sam Burns wimped out. My opinion.

I agree with this interpretation. The truth is no one saw where the ball landed especially the players on the tee 300 yards away. In that case you have to rely on the honesty of the player Sam Burns.

[OhioBuckeye]

But wouldn’t that mean if this team wanted to place the ball wherever they wanted, wouldn’t that mean go out in the water & get that ball then place it where you want. It’s a ball out of bounds, lost it, can’t find it. Using another ball means you lost a ball & you would have to place another ball right where you saw it go out of bounds? They’re changing rules all the time, stick to the the present ruling.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It's up to the player to determine where the ball crossed the line. If other players disagree they can call an official who should settle the question. If it's simply he said, he said then the player's opinion will stand unless there are multiple players objecting. The officials also have the option of calling the television booth and having the head of officiating look at any video evidence.

If their fellow competitors made no objection then they probably agreed with Billy. It seems that the OP is the only one that saw it the other way. I'm not saying that he's wrong, it's just that everyone on the course seemed to be in agreement. It is possible that they were all wrong and simply missed it. Bad calls happen in golf just like in every other sport.

[gighilton]

What I find is that no one here plays by the real rules anyway. So it should be confusing to most. TV has hanged things as far as rulings go...Call it in you might get your two minutes of fame.

It should be decided , the drop area, by the group playing, but not everyone had the same eye line to the crossing point. So, it is as it was.!

[retiredguy123]

But wouldn’t that mean if this team wanted to place the ball wherever they wanted, wouldn’t that mean go out in the water & get that ball then place it where you want. It’s a ball out of bounds, lost it, can’t find it. Using another ball means you lost a ball & you would have to place another ball right where you saw it go out of bounds? They’re changing rules all the time, stick to the the present ruling.
The ball was not out of bounds or lost. It was in a water hazard, which entitles the player to drop another ball on the path where it entered the hazard, but not closer to the hole, with a one stroke penalty. The issue was about where the ball entered the hazard.

[retiredguy123]

It's up to the player to determine where the ball crossed the line. If other players disagree they can call an official who should settle the question. If it's simply he said, he said then the player's opinion will stand unless there are multiple players objecting. The officials also have the option of calling the television booth and having the head of officiating look at any video evidence.

If their fellow competitors made no objection then they probably agreed with Billy. It seems that the OP is the only one that saw it the other way. I'm not saying that he's wrong, it's just that everyone on the course seemed to be in agreement. It is possible that they were all wrong and simply missed it. Bad calls happen in golf just like in every other sport.
Poster No. 8 saw it the same way I did, and so did many others on other internet sites. Billy Horschel was the only player who really expressed an opinion and he acted like a jerk. There didn't seem to be any agreement to his vocal comments by the other players or the rules official. But, the official didn't want to make a ruling, and didn't even ask Sam Burns, the guy who made the shot. The other two players were not really involved because they could not win the tournament.

[jedalton]

only applies if it's a yellow stake hazard.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What I find is that no one here plays by the real rules anyway. So it should be confusing to most. TV has hanged things as far as rulings go...Call it in you might get your two minutes of fame.

It should be decided , the drop area, by the group playing, but not everyone had the same eye line to the crossing point. So, it is as it was.!

The PGA Tour is no longer accepting phone calls on rulings.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Poster No. 8 saw it the same way I did, and so did many others on other internet sites. Billy Horschel was the only player who really expressed an opinion and he acted like a jerk. There didn't seem to be any agreement to his vocal comments by the other players or the rules official. But, the official didn't want to make a ruling, and didn't even ask Sam Burns, the guy who made the shot. The other two players were not really involved because they could not win the tournament.

A players position in the tournament has nothing to do with any ruling. If they saw things differently they could have spoken up. It's up to all of the players to protect the field in these situations. The fact that no one argued with Horschel indicates to me that none of the players saw enough to dispute his opinion.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

But wouldn’t that mean if this team wanted to place the ball wherever they wanted, wouldn’t that mean go out in the water & get that ball then place it where you want. It’s a ball out of bounds, lost it, can’t find it. Using another ball means you lost a ball & you would have to place another ball right where you saw it go out of bounds? They’re changing rules all the time, stick to the the present ruling.

OB and lost ball are both stroke and distance. No drop...next shot must be played from where last shot was played.

[retiredguy123]

OB and lost ball are both stroke and distance. No drop...next shot must be played from where last shot was played.
This situation was not an out-of-bounds ball or a lost ball. It was a ball that went into a water hazard. The only issue was where did it enter the water hazard? If it crossed the hazard 300 yards back, then the ball needs to be dropped 300 yards back. But, if it hit the ground near the green and then bounced sideways into the hazard at that point, it could be dropped near the green. It is not a stroke and distance penalty situation.

[tvbound]

OB and lost ball are both stroke and distance. No drop...next shot must be played from where last shot was played.

After the last rules revisions, there is now another option for a ball that is OB - than playing another from where the OB ball was last played.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

7This situation was not an out-of-bounds ball or a lost ball. It was a ball that went into a water hazard. The only issue was where did it enter the water hazard? If it crossed the hazard 300 yards back, then the ball needs to be dropped 300 yards back. But, if it hit the ground near the green and then bounced sideways into the hazard at that point, it could be dropped near the green. It is not a stroke and distance penalty situation.
Never said it was. I was addressing the post I quoted.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

After the last rules revisions, there is now another option for a ball that is OB - than playing another from where the OB ball was last played.

That change allows a local rule to speed up play. You won't see that in pro golf.

[tvbound]

That change allows a local rule to speed up play. You won't see that in pro golf.

I was simply explaining that for the 99.99% of non-professional golfers here, that your broad-brushed statement - is now incorrect. Have a nice day.