Cut off the legs of a dead elk with a chainsaw

[The Shadow]

"A Central Florida construction company owner cut off the legs of a dead elk with a chainsaw for a photo opportunity while hunting in Montana, new documents allege.

"Wildwood businessman James "Ike" Rainey, owner of the Rainey Construction Co., is one of eight defendants who were charged with felony poaching violations in Montana last week.

"Rainey and Mark Morse, president and chief operating officer of The Villages retirement community 60 miles northwest of Orlando, are facing charges for illegally killing and possessing animals on their Montana ranches."

Snip.....

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mark-morse-villages-montana-20101110,0,2346627.story

[graciegirl]

I have to wonder why such a thread was started.

[BaylorBear]

I have to wonder why such a thread was started.

:agree:

[Ajack]

I have to wonder why such a thread was started.

Is Shadow using this forum as some kind of vendetta against The Villages or the Morse family?

[chuckster]

I agree and would expect nothing different from shadow having read his comments here and on the old poa website.

[Army Guy]

AMEN!

Army Guy

[The Shadow]

I have to wonder why such a thread was started.

I am just the messenger. It is news. It is related to TV and I love to see how many times I can make you attract the messenger because you can have no other comment about article because I know dam well you are on the developers payroll and in charge of monitoring this site. It is your job to put whip cream on every dog log you find.

I am sorry so much whip cream gives me sugar shock.:cus:

You never did say what you thought about the content of the article.

Did you want to thank me for making the effort to provide the information to the people that find this activity criminal and want it stopped? Or we could pretend it did not happen.

Nothing personal, but you were wondering.:coolsmiley:

You can have the last word. :0000000000luvmyhors

[graciegirl]

I am just the messenger. It is news. It is related to TV and I love to see how many times I can make you attract the messenger because you can have no other comment about article because I know dam well you are on the developers payroll and in charge of monitoring this site. It is your job to put whip cream on every dog log you find.

I am sorry so much whip cream gives me sugar shock.:cus:

You never did say what you thought about the content of the article.

Did you want to thank me for making the effort to provide the information to the people that find this activity criminal and want it stopped? Or we could pretend it did not happen.

Nothing personal, but you were wondering.:coolsmiley:

You can have the last word. :0000000000luvmyhors

I would guess that the only people who really have known me from Ohio and know all about my previous life there, the couple who gave us the tour two years ago and gave us a sweet cool drink would be the people to ask about who I really am and what I am really like. They don't post on here and I just YELLED at her on the phone about a health issue she is ignoring so she may be mad at me this second.

I could tell people anything, we all could. We are new to each other. On one hand I am complimented by the fact that you think I work for the Morses and on the other hand I am offended. I try very hard to be an honest person.

I swear that I do not work for the Morses and I have never met any of them.

I am not seeking employment, but I would love to meet them. Still...even after this awful hunting situation.

I would like to meet you Shadow. I am an old wrinkled woman who is very grateful to be here.

[Chi-Town]

Well, it's kind of hard to argue with Shadow's logic if not his rhetoric; it is news about The Villages' developer and construction company, and this is Talk of the Villages. But I say let's wait to see the facts shake out in court. There will probably be a plea bargain, and we can make our determination based upon what the defendants admit to.

[Taltarzac]

I would take what the Orlando Sentinel prints about the Villages with a grain of salt. They seem more interested in stories that get read by non-Villagers than actual facts about the Villages. It is about selling newspapers and competing with the Internet and TV news programs.

Wait for the legal system to work this out even though the first thing they teach you in law school is that the legal system has nothing to do with truth nor with justice. It has more to do with evidence and the appearance of justice.

On to another item in a previous post, I really doubt if Graciegirl is on the Villages' developers' payroll. She is just another person who loves her new community and is very vocal about it.

[dillywho]

So Shadow, if one questions your motivation for this thread, it is only because that person must be "on the payroll of the developer"?

Gracie is one of the fairest persons to be on this forum. She always gives everyone the benefit of the doubt....everyone. Unlike many of the others on here, she looks for the good in everyone...not the bad or sensational or just the developers. It's a really long, unfair stretch to wonder if she is an employee (excuse me, on the payroll) of the developer because she refuses to believe the news hype. These are allegations, folks, not a conviction.

If that is the criteria by which you judge (yes, I believe you are judging her), then you'd better count lots of the rest of us as "on the payroll" as well. I have met Gracie and found her to be a warm, caring person who truly appreciates what she has. Nobody has to be "on the payroll" to do that.

I have to wonder when this became a country of trial by media replacing trial by a jury of one's peers. Hmmmm?

Thank you for being you, Gracie.

[Larry Wilson]

I would take what the Orlando Sentinel prints about the Villages with a grain of salt. They seem more interested in stories that get read by non-Villagers than actual facts about the Villages. It is about selling newspapers and competing with the Internet and TV news programs.

Wait for the legal system to work this out even though the first thing they teach you in law school is that the legal system has nothing to do with truth nor with justice. It has more to do with evidence and the appearance of justice.

On to another item in a previous post, I really doubt if Graciegirl is on the Villages' developers' payroll. She is just another person who loves her new community and is very vocal about it.

I love the community here too. But don't blame anyone other than those who were closest to the source for this information. It is all over Montana's newspapers and radio stations. It is even being carried in some hunting blogs. Again I love it here, but as a hunter, I know how attrocious these acts are. Of course people on this board will deny any wrong-doing occurred. I am not one. Way too much evidence.

[pooh]

I, too, wonder why you've posted this story, Shadow, though it's your right to. At this point, my personal feeling is there's not much more to say about the situation. We're not in the area where the incidents were to have taken place, our input has no impact on how matters will be handled and anything we say is only personal feelings.

Not sure why you've felt the need to imply Gracie is working for the Morses. I've met Gracie and she is a dear, sweet woman who chooses to see the more positive side of situations and truly loves where she is living. More of us should stop jumping to conclusions about events and situations. (You know the old saying, if you ASSUME, you make an ass out of you and me.... ;) ) I, too, find this community to be a wonderful place to live, "warts and all." Not sure if you feel the same way, but I love it here. The Villages is unlike any other retirement community in the world, describing it to others leaves non-Villagers shaking their heads....it can't be as nice as that....but it is. We who live here, full time or seasonally, have CHOSEN to do so. The Morses don't need a "shill" to promote life here.

[kentucky blue]

If that is the criteria by which you judge (yes, I believe you are judging her), then you'd better count lots of the rest of us as "on the payroll" as well. I have met Gracie and found her to be a warm, caring person who truly appreciates what she has. Nobody has to be "on the payroll" to do that.

I have to wonder when this became a country of trial by media replacing trial by a jury of one's peers. Hmmmm?

Thank you for being you, Gracie.

There are people who just seem too good to be true, and most of the time they end up being frauds.But Gracie, by all accounts from the people that have met her, including my Sharon, really IS too good to be true.That being said; Gracie, i don't have anymore room in my garage for your"Gracie For Mayor" signs, please pick them up:smiley:

PS. In the past, The Shadow has contributed alot of valuable information to this board.You need balance on every message board and Shadow performs that service to TOTV.Everyone of us, wishes we could delete a post we wrote ,............and that was one. :ohdear:

[The Shadow]

Please note what I posted was a news article. No trial accrued. I furnished a news paper article. I did not comment on the article. So I am more guilt of doing more wrong than the people that allegedly did wrong?

Wait till the trial is over OK.

Florida justices uphold death for triggerman in The Villages murder
Nov. 10--The state Supreme Court today upheld the conviction and death sentence for the killer in the first-ever murder in The Villages.
Renaldo "Pooney" McGirth, then 20, became the youngest person on Florida's death row in May 2008 when he was sentenced for the first-degree murder of Diana Miller on July 21, 2006. He and two friends had tried to rob Miller, 63, and her husband, James, at the retired couple's home on Wesley Street in The Villages.
http://dailyme.com/story/2010111000003586/florida-justices-uphold-death-triggerman-villages.html

I should not post this because?????????Reason number one, I can not read it because it is not in the “The Villages Daily Sun”.
Please not it is buried deep in this thread.

[sandybill2]

"The Shadow" Please see Page C5 - Daily Sun= Thursday, November 11, 2010---Law Enforcement Briefs---Tallahassee---"Death Sentence upheld for convicted Murdered"

[The Shadow]

"The Shadow" Please see Page C5 - Daily Sun= Thursday, November 11, 2010---Law Enforcement Briefs---Tallahassee---"Death Sentence upheld for convicted Murdered"

My news is dated the 10th but you still get a cookie. I read news papers on line take your pick.

http://newslink.org/statnews.html

[bkcunningham1]

"A Central Florida construction company owner cut off the legs of a dead elk with a chainsaw for a photo opportunity while hunting in Montana, new documents allege.

"Wildwood businessman James "Ike" Rainey, owner of the Rainey Construction Co., is one of eight defendants who were charged with felony poaching violations in Montana last week.

"Rainey and Mark Morse, president and chief operating officer of The Villages retirement community 60 miles northwest of Orlando, are facing charges for illegally killing and possessing animals on their Montana ranches."

Snip.....

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mark-morse-villages-montana-20101110,0,2346627.story

I think a chainsaw would be the right tool for the job.

[K9-Lovers]

Shadow, you shouldn't have to act defensively for merely starting a thread with a newspaper clip on a topic that is of interest to Villagers. You did nothing wrong. You provided information that is timely and is being discussed on other threads.

People take offense easily. Especially when a regular poster's ethics are questioned, like Graciegirl.

But the mere act of posting a newspaper clip on a timely and pertinent topic? Thanks for providing the info.

[2BNTV]

Only the person saying something truly knowns what in their heart.

IMHO -Gracie is the most positive person who cares about people. Her words and acts indicates she is a person who wouldn't hurt someone. I for one, can't wait to meet her as she is so gracious to open up her home for TOTV members. She is TV biggest cheerleader because she is thankful for living in a wonderful place.

Nothing and no-one is perfect but TV comes very close to being perfect.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I choose to think that someone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and not from the court of public opinion.

To be informed is great but one must determine for themselves how much is to be believed. Until all the facts are in, we really don't know.

[Regor]

Shame on you Shadow! Lots people here in The Villages seem to worship the developer and his cohorts as almost a God. You really shouldn't blasphemy their choice for idol worship.

[K9-Lovers]

2BNTV, You are right about Gracie, and right about everyone having their own opinion, and right about how much is to be believed, and right about innocent until proven guilty. I agree with your entire post.

My point is that we all should not point fingers, or cast suspicions on someone just for posting a newspaper article. There wasn't even a comment with the article.

[salpal]

If posters were on The Villages payroll, I believe this forum would have been shut down long ago. I believe that people here just give their honest opinion and Gracie most of all.

[actor]

are true, I hope they throw the book at Morse and his cohorts. Funny how the law and order crowd is so ready to wait for the justice system to figure out what is and is not accurate.

[Pturner]

2BNTV, You are right about Gracie, and right about everyone having their own opinion, and right about how much is to be believed, and right about innocent until proven guilty. I agree with your entire post.

My point is that we all should not point fingers, or cast suspicions on someone just for posting a newspaper article. There wasn't even a comment with the article.

K9, You are right about Gracie, and right about everyone having their own opinion, and right about ...

My point is that we all should not point fingers, or cast suspicions on someone just for posting (a link to) a newspaper article.

[The Shadow]

Shame on you Shadow! Lots people here in The Villages seem to worship the developer and his cohorts as almost a God. You really shouldn't blasphemy their choice for idol worship.
Shame why, what did I do wrong.
Please note what I posted was a news article. No trial accrued. I furnished a news paper article. I did not comment on the article. So I am more guilt of doing more wrong than the people that allegedly did wrong?

"worship the developer" I tell you what Skippy that is some sick s***.

I am having another Whip Cream high sorry.

You all have a nice day I am going to go watch Oprah.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii199/The_Villages/DisbeliefWIP21sm.jpg

[BobKat1]

I think Regor was being facetious.

[K9-Lovers]

posting (a link to) a newspaper article.

Yup. You got me! :wave:

[Barefoot]

I know dam well you are on the developers payroll and in charge of monitoring this site. It is your job to put whip cream on every dog log you find.

Gracie, congratulations on your new job. :a20:

[pooh]

You've never answered the question Shadow, why did you post the link? Do you want to keep discussion of the story going? Do you want to keep us informed as to what has happened? Do you want to take aim at the Morses or Raineys? I'm curious about your reason for the link.

Thanks.

[Taj44]

Shadow, you shouldn't have to act defensively for merely starting a thread with a newspaper clip on a topic that is of interest to Villagers. You did nothing wrong. You provided information that is timely and is being discussed on other threads.

People take offense easily. Especially when a regular poster's ethics are questioned, like Graciegirl.

But the mere act of posting a newspaper clip on a timely and pertinent topic? Thanks for providing the info.

I agree. It is the news, and I'm interested in hearing about it. Don't kill the messenger. If you want to be angry, direct that energy to the people who committed the poaching.

Thanks Shadow, for the update.

[Ajack]

You've never answered the question Shadow, why did you post the link? Do you want to keep discussion of the story going? Do you want to keep us informed as to what has happened? Do you want to take aim at the Morses or Raineys? No offense intended, I'm just curious as to your reason for the link.

Thanks.

That is a good question. Does this shadow fellow think he is doing us a community service by always posting negatively. I have read his previous postings. He is very consistent.

[bimmertl]

Here's a link to some information on Rainey Construction.

http://www.manta.com/c/mmlcrhk/rainey-construction

It indicates Rainey Construction is a private company and has annual revenue of between $20-$50 milliion. No doubt the vast majority, if not all, of it's revenue comes from construction projects in The Villages. Rainey Trail is obviously named after him.

Considering this firms involvement in the Villages, this article is news we should be made aware of. It's also something you won't see in the Daily Sun.

Thanks to The Shadow for posting the article. You can form your own conclusions regarding Rainey/Morse et al from reading the articles, but it helps to be informed as to what any vendor who does work here is involved in.

[Taltarzac]

http://www.laureloutlook.com/articles/2010/11/10/sports/12poach.txt

Notice the lack of yellow journalism you see in the Orlando Sentinel story as described by the Shadow anyway.

The article from MT describes one of the allegations against James Rainey as:

"€ Two misdemeanor charges of waste of game in Big Horn County in September 2009. Rainey is accused of killing two elk, then removing only the head from one elk and allowing the meat from both carcasses to rot."

It does not go into the use of a chainsaw. This would seem to be something a prosecutor would want to point out when telling a jury about the case he or she would prove. It plays on your emotion. I cannot think of many other ways of removing an elk's head from its body except those that are just as graphic in their description.

[LuvItHere]

In November 2008, Rainey shot a male elk and directed them to take it "up the hill with a four-wheeler," then cut the legs "with a chainsaw for better positioning of the elk for photographs," Staton said.

The elk meat was cleaned and chopped but later spoiled inside an unplugged freezer. Game wardens dug up holes on the ranches where the bones — specifically ribcages and spinal columns — had been buried.

"Most Montana hunters find it totally egregious to waste the meat," Gibson said. "Most people in Montana eat what they kill."

Hunters can bring game meat to local processing plants in Montana that will clean, cut, and freeze it for a nominal fee, he said. The meat is then donated to local food banks for the hungry.

The name of this thread was obviously meant to shock us and it does. The whole lot of allegations sound repugnant. I'm an animal lover from a family of hunters, and I've hunted myself.

But in the clipping above, I don't see the difference between sawing off the legs for a picture, and sawing the legs off while field dressing the carcass or dressing it at the meat processing plant as described above.

It seems to me that the chainsaw and leg chopping was meant to inject some PETA-style "horror" into the allegations.

[samhass]

There is no gentle way to dress out an elk or any large animal. Does anyone think the elk would prefer an axe over the chainsaw?





In November 2008, Rainey shot a male elk and directed them to take it "up the hill with a four-wheeler," then cut the legs "with a chainsaw for better positioning of the elk for photographs," Staton said.

The elk meat was cleaned and chopped but later spoiled inside an unplugged freezer. Game wardens dug up holes on the ranches where the bones — specifically ribcages and spinal columns — had been buried.

"Most Montana hunters find it totally egregious to waste the meat," Gibson said. "Most people in Montana eat what they kill."

Hunters can bring game meat to local processing plants in Montana that will clean, cut, and freeze it for a nominal fee, he said. The meat is then donated to local food banks for the hungry.

The name of this thread was obviously meant to shock us and it does. The whole lot of allegations sound repugnant. I'm an animal lover from a family of hunters, and I've hunted myself.

But in the clipping above, I don't see the difference between sawing off the legs for a picture, and sawing the legs off while field dressing the carcass or dressing it at the meat processing plant as described above.

It seems to me that the chainsaw and leg chopping was meant to inject some PETA-style "horror" into the allegations.

[BobKat1]

Does anyone know if this is an ongoing hot topic throughout TV, or mainly here on TOTV?

I'm curious to know how widespread the topic/discussion is. Thanks.

[SALYBOW]

We oftentime rise to a topic here in a bit of a rabid manner. We are then rewarding people for inappropriate behavior. Possibly we should incorporate the oft used teacher strategy of "planned ignoring." That behavior which doesn't evoke a reaction is often not repeated. Works well with adolescent behavior, I can vouch for that.
Since we have opened up this can of worms, might I ask a few questions?
1. Why do we need to know this? If, in fact, we were going to be on the jury which tries him we would have the facts spelled out for us in a Montana court. But chances are slim to none that we will called to jury duty in Montana, I don't see the need for this information..

2. Shadow, could you share with us where you live? Is it in TV or not?

3. Does anyone know the definition and the consequences of slander, lible and defamation of character?

4. Most importantly, does a dead moose actually feel the chainsaw?

Just MHO. TY :Screen_of_Death:

[Larry Wilson]

Breaking the law in this case is a sign of a man's character. Yes, dead animals feel pain as they are dying. Yes, this is talked about in sport groups, golf groups, and social groups in the Villages. No, hunters do not cut off legs and leave them in the field. No hunter with a conscience wastes food, especially from a state which has a high level of poverty.

[Taj44]

http://www.laureloutlook.com/articles/2010/11/10/sports/12poach.txt

Notice the lack of yellow journalism you see in the Orlando Sentinel story as described by the Shadow anyway.

The article from MT describes one of the allegations against James Rainey as:

"€ Two misdemeanor charges of waste of game in Big Horn County in September 2009. Rainey is accused of killing two elk, then removing only the head from one elk and allowing the meat from both carcasses to rot."

It does not go into the use of a chainsaw. This would seem to be something a prosecutor would want to point out when telling a jury about the case he or she would prove. It plays on your emotion. I cannot think of many other ways of removing an elk's head from its body except those that are just as graphic in their description.

I don't know that I'd call it yellow journalism - that tends to be sensationalist headlines, which is certainly the case here, but yellow journalism also implies lack of factual basis, poor research, faked interviews, unnamed sources, etc. In this case the headlines, although sensationalist, appear to be true. They are based on affadavits that are a matter of public record.

Unfortunately, everything lately from the media seems to be sensationalist - that's how they grab everyone's attention. Look at this recent headline in the national news: "Condit's DNA found on Levy's Underwear", like we needed to hear that. The Orlando Sentinel isn't doing anything different than any other media source is doing, its trying to sell papers and stay afloat financially. I don't care for the sensationalism, but I do think they are presenting the facts in the matter.

[Ajack]

Breaking the law in this case is a sign of a man's character. Yes, dead animals feel pain as they are dying. Yes, this is talked about in sport groups, golf groups, and social groups in the Villages. No, hunters do not cut off legs and leave them in the field. No hunter with a conscience wastes food, especially from a state which has a high level of poverty.

I never heard of a dead animal feeling pain. I recently moved to Pennecamp and have talked to many new neighbors. You would be surprised at how many people never heard of Gary Morse or TOTV.

[Larry Wilson]

Two points. I said animals feel pain as they are dying. They lose control of their bowels and often let out a death cry. Its not like television. I have seen many animals shot and it is sickening. Plus they said some of these animals were wounded which is even worst but happens in hunting.
Second - I don't think many villagers heard this story from TOTV but rather from newspapers and TV.

[redwitch]

Sorry, Shadow, I can't say thanks for the link. I don't think it has any relevance. It is nothing really new. We already knew Rainey left the carcass and kept the trophy head. The fact he cut off the legs is disgusting, cruel, ugly, but irrelevant.

I sincerely hope that Morse, Rainey, et al., get whatever is deserved. I know it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but everything I've read screams guilty. If I were on a jury in Montana for this case, I would have to be excused because I do believe all of the events occurred and I know them to be illegal.

As to Gracie, she really is as sweet as she sounds. She can (rarely) get cranky and even occasionally snaps, but on the whole she tries very hard to see the best in people. Heck, she even talks to me and gives me much needed hugs even though she knows I'm no fan of the Morses (TV, yes; the Morse family, no).

As to discussions in TV about this incident, it is definitely talked about. I play Mah-Jongg with a group of ladies whose knowledge of the internet is somewhere between slim and none. None of them have ever gone near TOTV that I know of. They all knew about the poaching. Three of them were upset about it; two really didn't see that it mattered in the grand scheme of TV; two didn't believe it all. So, if these seven women knew about this incident, I'm guessing it is pretty much common knowledge in TV.

[Ajack]

Two points. I said animals feel pain as they are dying. They lose control of their bowels and often let out a death cry. Its not like television. I have seen many animals shot and it is sickening. Plus they said some of these animals were wounded which is even worst but happens in hunting.
Second - I don't think many villagers heard this story from TOTV but rather from newspapers and TV.

I only quoted what you said. Also many of my new neighbors never heard of Gary Morse or the so-called incident.That must tell you something.

[Ajack]

I have one question for all that says that "character matters" If it was discovered that the Morses were mass murderers, would you sell your house here in The Villages? Would it make this place any worse? What really is accomplished here by all this gossiping?

And for the people who love it here but "hate" Mr. Morse: Do you really know the man? If you hate him so much, then show some "character" and leave.

[Taj44]

...Also many of my new neighbors never heard of Gary Morse or the so-called incident.That must tell you something.

It sure tells me something - since everyone else is talking about it, they are really out of the loop and obviously don't keep up with the latest news. Maybe they've been too busy unpacking to watch television or read a newspaper.

[redwitch]

Ajack, don't know about anyone else, but I've never said I hate the Morses -- just don't like their greed factor -- and I've yet to read a single post where someone said they hated the Morses. Regardless of their character, TV is a wonderful place to live and that is because the majority of people who live here are truly wonderful. Why should someone leave just because they don't like the developer? It doesn't mean they don't love their home or their neighbors or their community.

[ricthemic]

Suggestion One: Shawdow consider goingn to Gracie's TOTV house party.
Suggestion Two: Talk Host please adjust your posting times to reflect day light savings

[Ajack]

Ajack, don't know about anyone else, but I've never said I hate the Morses -- just don't like their greed factor -- and I've yet to read a single post where someone said they hated the Morses. Regardless of their character, TV is a wonderful place to live and that is because the majority of people who live here are truly wonderful. Why should someone leave just because they don't like the developer? It doesn't mean they don't love their home or their neighbors or their community.

Maybe hate was too strong, but of course, you knew what I meant. My post was said with my tongue in cheek. People here keep saying the same thing over and over again about the man's character. Well, all I'm saying is that if these people have the audacity to question someones character, they should also be principled enough to do something about it.
As for greed, the rich get rich because they have the nerve and vision to invest into something they believe in. It took mountains of money to build this place that we call home. He could have lost as much as he made. This is America. People say that in England, they envy the well to do, and they are amazed that here in the USA people admire the successful.
That is who we are. Some people call it greed, and some people call it smart business. Think how many people are riding on Mr. Morse's coattails.
How many jobs has he created? All I know is that I am grateful for this lovely place, that I now call home.

[jojo]

I find this post offensive, particularly the title. The issue has been discussed and all this post does is stir the pot unnecessarily.

[Talk Host]

suggestion two: Talk host please adjust your posting times to reflect day light savings

huh?

[golfnut]

redwitch, i agree with most of your posts, but you need to explain this one you posted,

"I know it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but everything I've read screams guilty. If I were on a jury in Montana for this case, I would have to be excused because I do believe all of the events occurred and I know them to be illegal."

How can you possibly pass judgement based on what you have read on the internet.

Shadow, why did you feel the need to post an article that has already been debated on this forum ad nauseum for the past week. I live in the village of Belvedere, as another poster asked in this thread, what village do you live in...gn

[TJ CHICAGO]

I knew this day would happen! I met Gracie for the first time this week and mention that the person who I really enjoy reading on this site is "The Shadow." The Shadow will always tell us what he/she dislikes about the Villages. We need a Village critic to remind us that the Villages is not heaven and has faults like everything else in this world. I can assure you "Shadow" that Gracie is not on the Morse Payroll. However Gracie is on the payroll of enjoying life by having a home in the Villages and enjoying new friendships. Just recently, I have bought a home in the Villages and I'm trying to be like Gracie. In two weeks, I have enjoyed the Villages' activities and meeting new people. Maybe someday I will meet The Shadow and whisper "lets have a cup a coffee and discuss our life experiences."

[redwitch]

golfnut -- I'm usually one of those people who truly gives others the benefit of the doubt and I'm surprised by my reaction to this. Heck, I've been fairer to Kacee Anderson in that I do believe she probably did it but I want all of the known facts before making my decision. But not this time. This time it is guilty until proven innocent for me. Not proud of it, but it is what it is.

So, I'll try to explain why I believe the charges. This was a long investigation. I'm sure that part of that was because Food & Game people have so little power that they really have to have their ducks in a row. That's reason one. I have friends in Montana and Wyoming and have been there many times to camp, hunt, just hang out. They all hate the "gentlemen" ranchers who buy but don't work the ranches -- they treat their ranches like private game preserves. Rainey and Morse fit this group to a tee. That's reason two. From what I've seen and heard of the Morses, there is a sense of entitlement. That's reason three. Also, my comments are not just based on what I've read on the internet. I called one of my friends -- they own a ranch right next "door" to the Morse/Rainey ranch. They're only mad it took so long to charge this group. They've known of the activities for a long time (or so I was told -- I really do take what I read and see with a large grain of salt). That's reason four. So, given my visceral reaction and my personal knowledge of the judicial system (pretty extensive), poaching (limited) and Montana (enough to understand their attitudes), I do believe they are guilty as charged. Mind you, I do not want them sentenced without a fair trial if they choose they route (which I doubt will be the case), which is why I said I would have to be excused from the jury.

[graciegirl]

Red. You mean Casey Anthony?

[redwitch]

Uh-huh -- got Casey and Kaylee confused and put them together (hey, it's early!).

[samhass]

golfnut -- I'm usually one of those people who truly gives others the benefit of the doubt and I'm surprised by my reaction to this. Heck, I've been fairer to Kacee Anderson in that I do believe she probably did it but I want all of the known facts before making my decision. But not this time. This time it is guilty until proven innocent for me. Not proud of it, but it is what it is.

So, I'll try to explain why I believe the charges. This was a long investigation. I'm sure that part of that was because Food & Game people have so little power that they really have to have their ducks in a row. That's reason one. I have friends in Montana and Wyoming and have been there many times to camp, hunt, just hang out. They all hate the "gentlemen" ranchers who buy but don't work the ranches -- they treat their ranches like private game preserves. Rainey and Morse fit this group to a tee. That's reason two. From what I've seen and heard of the Morses, there is a sense of entitlement. That's reason three. Also, my comments are not just based on what I've read on the internet. I called one of my friends -- they own a ranch right next "door" to the Morse/Rainey ranch. They're only mad it took so long to charge this group. They've known of the activities for a long time (or so I was told -- I really do take what I read and see with a large grain of salt). That's reason four. So, given my visceral reaction and my personal knowledge of the judicial system (pretty extensive), poaching (limited) and Montana (enough to understand their attitudes), I do believe they are guilty as charged. Mind you, I do not want them sentenced without a fair trial if they choose they route (which I doubt will be the case), which is why I said I would have to be excused from the jury.

I don't know, Red, saying "They all hate the "gentlemen" ranchers who buy but don't work the ranches -- " really? Or are they jealous? And as for the entitlement, these men have worked hard and I'm sure at this point they do feel some sense of entitlement. I certainly would. Not to poach game mind you, but entitlement to enjoy the finer things in life.
Again, if Montana was so concerned about the loss of these animals, why not bring it to these men,in no uncertain terms, early in the game? Or do you wait until you can really sock it to them with very heavy fines and possible incarceration? Then it becomes more about money and revenge rather than saving the animals.
Hmmmm, consider this. If they are charged with felonies maybe they can run for powerful political offices.:throwtomatoes:

[senior citizen]

Does anyone know if this is an ongoing hot topic throughout TV, or mainly here on TOTV?

I'm curious to know how widespread the topic/discussion is. Thanks.

We live in Vermont which is also a big hunting state. Deer hunting season has just begun. Anyone experienced with hunting would know that a license is required.

Those who own land in Montana, Colorado, Oregon or other western state should also know that they need a license to hunt, whether or not they own the land.

Animal rights activists would certainly be upset with the way the animals were left. I , personally, would not want to kill any animal although hubby did go up to deer hunting camp faithfully for decades. I did show the story from the Orlando Sentinel to him.

I see nothing wrong with Shadow posting a hyperlink to this news. We still do have freedom to read whatever we please, even in the Villages, correct?

We are definitely planning to visit TV to decide once and for all whether it will be apples or oranges for our golden years. First, we have to welcome our fourth grandchild this coming spring. Life is what happens when you are making other plans. But TV does seem to have so much going for it.....but sometimes I wonder about the freedom of thought and freedom of speech aspect.

[Taltarzac]

Red? With your experience with courts have you ever served on a jury?

Every time I have been summoned for jury service as soon as I tell them I have a law degree someone challenges me and bumps me from the jury pool. This happened in Sonoma County (@1995), Pinellas County (2003), and just this year at the Federal Courthouse in Ocala which covers federal cases Marion, Sumter and Lake Counties.

I did not even bother with Sumter County's drive down to the County Seat when a summons looked imminent. I mentioned I had a law degree to the County Clerk and got bumped from the jury pool.

The Federal case looked really interesting too and would have loved to have heard the lawyers arguments about employment discrimination based on a Lake County cop's use of the Spanish language in his various police reports.

I have no real opinion about the Morse family or friends guilt with respect to poaching yet. I need to see more of the particular facts without any slant on them. Need to know the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How of the case(s).

[Ajack]

Yes, England's fascination with the rich and famous seems to be our inheritance here in the States. Then comes class envy. Then comes.........well, best left unsaid or it would then become political.

Seems to me that some people are dissatisfied with their own lot in life and need to bring other's to their level.

[redwitch]

Contra Costa County really didn't care if you worked in the legal field, including having a law degree. So, I served on a civil jury, a criminal trial and a one week stint as a grand juror (ask me how to make meth -- I now know it intimately; there was a case about it every day with the same testimony every time).

Sam, I think we all have a sense of entitlement, but Rainey and the Morses put themselves above the law when they hunted without a license and there's no excuse for that type of entitlement. And, no, I don't think it is jealousy that eats at the Montana ranchers. Most of them are pretty well off in their own rights -- you can't own the spreads they do without being successful. The smaller ranchers are probably another story, but not the ones that I know. They want their neighbors to be there, to join in on the round-ups (actually, quite fun), the barbeques, etc. For someone to buy a ranch simply so they and their friends can hunt on it is not what they want for neighbors. They really do want the ranches to be working ranches and they don't want them owned by corporations or those who don't care about the environment of their community. I've heard many discussions about this in the past (haven't been there in a few years, so have no idea what's being said now but I can only imagine it's gotten worse).

I do agree it would have been nice had they charged everyone much earlier. I have no idea why it took so long, but I imagine part of it is making sure the charges would stick. The FDA really doesn't have much clout (and why in heck is hunting under the auspices of the FDA is beyond me), so investigations have to be extremely thorough. Another factor could be the "shotgun" approach -- the more charges against the culprits, the better chance of making something stick. Another part is probably they wanted to up the ante on the charges. Just getting them for one season would probably not leave on impact on the next group who decide to hunt without a license, so it does make sense for the charges to be over a couple of seasons, but I'm not convinced 4 years was necessary other than to try to add more to the coffers.

What's interesting to me is how the undercover investigator is being criticized -- not for waiting so long to bring the charges but for killing a sheep (big horn?) out of season. Think he'd have a hard time hunting with this group if he didn't hunt when they did but that seems to be irrelevant to Montanans. Some want charges brought against him, too.

[nitehawk]

One person post information found in a article from the Orlando Sentinel - then the next five people jump all over him. If you don't like the post don't read it or post anything to keep it going - or maybe its the number of posts you have and are in the running for first place?? then post something like I agree or I disagree, that will give you another post I think to be in first place you have to be on this site more time then I have to give - i have a life and things to do sorry- as for the Orlando Sentinel dislike maybe it because of Lauren Ritchie (this is a link to the original story http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mark-morse-the-villages-charged-20101104,0,2191208.story you will see at the bottom of the article "Christine Show, Lauren Ritchie and Martin Comas of the Sentinel contributed to this story." so keep reading the Daily Mail and stay well informed because what the Daily Mail reports is the real world. that all i have to say -- don't shoot the messenger - just sit back -- enjoy -- have another glass of Kool Aid - sorry maybe too much Kool Aid

[bkcunningham1]

We live in Vermont which is also a big hunting state. Deer hunting season has just begun. Anyone experienced with hunting would know that a license is required.

Those who own land in Montana, Colorado, Oregon or other western state should also know that they need a license to hunt, whether or not they own the land.

Animal rights activists would certainly be upset with the way the animals were left. I , personally, would not want to kill any animal although hubby did go up to deer hunting camp faithfully for decades. I did show the story from the Orlando Sentinel to him.

I see nothing wrong with Shadow posting a hyperlink to this news. We still do have freedom to read whatever we please, even in the Villages, correct?

We are definitely planning to visit TV to decide once and for all whether it will be apples or oranges for our golden years. First, we have to welcome our fourth grandchild this coming spring. Life is what happens when you are making other plans. But TV does seem to have so much going for it.....but sometimes I wonder about the freedom of thought and freedom of speech aspect.


I'm just curious, do you need a license to hunt on your own land in Vermont?

[pooh]

One person post information found in a article from the Orlando Sentinel - then the next five people jump all over him. If you don't like the post don't read it or post anything to keep it going - or maybe its the number of posts you have and are in the running for first place?? then post something like I agree or I disagree, that will give you another post I think to be in first place you have to be on this site more time then I have to give - i have a life and things to do sorry- as for the Orlando Sentinel dislike maybe it because of Lauren Ritchie (this is a link to the original story http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mark-morse-the-villages-charged-20101104,0,2191208.story you will see at the bottom of the article "Christine Show, Lauren Ritchie and Martin Comas of the Sentinel contributed to this story." so keep reading the Daily Mail and stay well informed because what the Daily Mail reports is the real world. that all i have to say -- don't shoot the messenger - just sit back -- enjoy -- have another glass of Kool Aid - sorry maybe too much Kool Aid

One can question motives for such a post and I for one, questioned why it was posted. You're right, by my responding I'm keeping this disgusting event in the limelight, BUT I did not get an answer to my question and if nothing, I'm persistent.

[senior citizen]

I'm just curious, do you need a license to hunt on your own land in Vermont?

I'll check and get back to you. My husband would spend the first hunting weekend after Veterans Day at the camp which his friend built from scratch. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly certain he told me that the fellow needed a license to hunt. The friend's aunt owned the land. I will check.

Bow hunting might be different than rifle hunting. Again, I'm not the hunter.
Bow hunting starts earlier in the autumn than rifle.

Neither of my children cared to hunt as they loved animals too much.
Personally, I've only had venison once....but it is a big deal amongst the native Vermonters.

Many people feel you should only kill an animal if you truly need the meat to survive. In that case, before I shot one, I'd become a vegan, no doubt about it. However, hunters will always say that our MacDonalds burger or what have you had a "face" once too.

[graciegirl]

I'll check and get back to you. My husband would spend the first hunting weekend after Veterans Day at the camp which his friend built from scratch. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly certain he told me that the fellow needed a license to hunt. The friend's aunt owned the land. I will check.

Bow hunting might be different than rifle hunting. Again, I'm not the hunter.
Bow hunting starts earlier in the autumn than rifle.

Neither of my children cared to hunt as they loved animals too much.
Personally, I've only had venison once....but it is a big deal amongst the native Vermonters.

Many people feel you should only kill an animal if you truly need the meat to survive. In that case, before I shot one, I'd become a vegan, no doubt about it. However, hunters will always say that our MacDonalds burger or what have you had a "face" once too.

There is a lot to agree with in your post Senior Citizen. I think a lot of us would shift to being vegetarians if we read headlines like "Publix employee takes meat cleaver to legs of dead cow".

[LuvItHere]

One person post information found in a article from the Orlando Sentinel - then the next five people jump all over him. If you don't like the post don't read it or post anything to keep it going - or maybe its the number of posts you have and are in the running for first place?? then post something like I agree or I disagree, . . as for the Orlando Sentinel dislike maybe it because of Lauren Ritchie (this is a link to the original story http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mark-morse-the-villages-charged-20101104,0,2191208.story you will see at the bottom of the article "Christine Show, Lauren Ritchie and Martin Comas of the Sentinel contributed to this story." so keep reading the Daily Mail . . . have another glass of Kool Aid - sorry maybe too much Kool Aid

Lauren Richie stated, in another thread here, that it is her JOB to put slant on what she writes because she is a "columnist paid to write in such a way that it convinces readers" of her slant . . . which is bias. I think everyone here knows that her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias.

So why, when she writes in a "news" story, should we believe that this is objective, fact-only reporting and not sensationalism meant to convince readers of her slant against "The Rich"???

[senior citizen]

My husband has not replied to my email asking again if a Vermont land owner needs a license to hunt on his own land. Originally he told me that they did.

However, I did check with the Vermont Wildlife Department, sending them an email.
No reply yet. Their website does not mention it at all, one way or the other.

I've googled it and nothing at all shows up for a Vermont land owner to be able to hunt without a license. Free hunting licenses are available to Vermont residents serving in the military. In some states, residents over age 70 can hunt for free.

I'm hoping the Vermont Wildlife will answer soon as I'd like to know now. We have a family of deer that cross through our back property for at least 16 years now. Shooting them in a residential area would be prohibited. There are apple orchards fairly close by and this entire area was once a big apple orchard......so they must be creatures of habit.

[senior citizen]

There is a lot to agree with in your post Senior Citizen. I think a lot of us would shift to being vegetarians if we read headlines like "Publix employee takes meat cleaver to legs of dead cow".

Ayup, however, I'm no expert but doesn't the butcher have to use some type of cleaver to cut through the bones. So much of the meat comes already packaged but some butcher someplace is using an electric gizmo which might be similar to a chainsaw. Any retired butchers out there?

I'm guessing again as I'm no hunter myself, but I think the deer in Vermont are taken home and hung up to age before they butcher them. Anyone know ? Some do it themselves and it wouldn't surprise me at all in the State of Vermont if the guys did use a chainsaw. Others took it to a butcher and I have no idea what they use to cut through the bones and carcass,etc.

My husband always defended his hunting with the fact that we all eat beef and chicken and other forms of meat that were once walking around before being killed. But that is another subject entirely.

The article in the paper was on trophy hunting not on the need for food.

[BobKat1]

There is a lot to agree with in your post Senior Citizen. I think a lot of us would shift to being vegetarians if we read headlines like "Publix employee takes meat cleaver to legs of dead cow".

I'll say one thing, if nothing else, the title of this thread is certainly an attention grabber.

[Ajack]

I could be wrong but I think butchers use a machine similar to a bandsaw.

[K9-Lovers]

Gracie, how do you imagine the butcher cuts those pretty t-bone steaks? They use a very large table saw that is similar to the kind you husband has in his workshop. The legs have to come off somehow.

[graciegirl]

My uncle Ernie was a butcher. He was in the era of non electric dismemberment.

Ewwwww.:loco:

[K9-Lovers]

Somehow, the non-electric dismemberment seems more respectful.

[senior citizen]

I'm just curious, do you need a license to hunt on your own land in Vermont?

Hello again,
I really did try to find an answer to your question, however, now even my husband is unsure and thinks maybe Vermont land owners can hunt without a license but only during the short hunting season.....not year round. He doesn''t know for certain.

The Vermont Wildlife Hunting & Fishing link has not yet answered my email.

I cannot find a definitive answer to your question....although I did learn a lot about the deer population and who can apply for a license. No info on who is allowed to hunt without a license, if at all. There are free licenses.

Perhaps someone else does know.

[bkcunningham1]

Hello again,
I really did try to find an answer to your question, however, now even my husband is unsure and thinks maybe Vermont land owners can hunt without a license but only during the short hunting season.....not year round. He doesn''t know for certain.

The Vermont Wildlife Hunting & Fishing link has not yet answered my email.

I cannot find a definitive answer to your question....although I did learn a lot about the deer population and who can apply for a license. No info on who is allowed to hunt without a license, if at all. There are free licenses.

Perhaps someone else does know.

I looked it up on the same state link for Vermont and couldn't find an answer either. Thank you for taking the time to look though.

[Taltarzac]

I'll say one thing, if nothing else, the title of this thread is certainly an attention grabber.

That is very close to the Title of the Orlando Sentinel article linked by the Shadow.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mark-morse-villages-montana-20101110,0,2346627.story


"Wildlife violations: Florida man accused of cutting off elk legs with chain saw...."


Sort of like the Montana Elk Chainsaw Massacre.

There seems to be a lynch mob sort of vibe from the Comments section of the Orlando Sentinel article.


ptenant09--
"Leave these arsholes in the woods to die."

theroyalty--
"dress these guys up like elk."

[senior citizen]

Just received following response from Charles Drury at Vermont State Government Wildlife:

Question: Does a land owner in Vermont need a license to hunt on his land?

EXCEPTIONS TO LICENSE REQUIREMENTS:
A resident owner of land in Vermont, his or her spouse, and minor children may hunt within the boundary of that land and take fish from a private pond within the boundary of that land without a license within season. Hunting and fishing must be done according to regulations. A nonresident owner of the land has equal privilege if his or her land is NOT posted.

(Meaning posted NO HUNTING).

[senior citizen]

Lauren Richie stated, in another thread here, that it is her JOB to put slant on what she writes because she is a "columnist paid to write in such a way that it convinces readers" of her slant . . . which is bias. I think everyone here knows that her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias.

So why, when she writes in a "news" story, should we believe that this is objective, fact-only reporting and not sensationalism meant to convince readers of her slant against "The Rich"???

Living elsewhere I really don't have an opinion on any disdain for the Morse family......however, the Orlando paper must have received their information from the Montana newspapers, correct? A felony is a felony. I doubt if they are handing out charges without something to back it up. Perhaps he felt that he was entitled to hunt on his own land without a license, as I just discovered Vermont landowners can indeed do. But if their law states otherwise, then he no doubt will never serve a prison term but will pay a hefty fine. To "hide" the news would be worse than exposing the news.
People are pretty smart and will draw their own conclusions when the total facts are in.......but why is everyone afraid to respond ? Prisons are overcrowded and I doubt if they would go to prison for poaching or dismembering elk. In North Carolina a sweet little girl's murderer is the one who should be worrying right now. The buzz is that the dad used his woodchipper to dismember her body after she "died"; the stepmom wrote a fake ransom note.....it's little Zahra Baker I'm referring to.

[bkcunningham1]

Living elsewhere I really don't have an opinion on any disdain for the Morse family......however, the Orlando paper must have received their information from the Montana newspapers, correct? A felony is a felony. I doubt if they are handing out charges without something to back it up. Perhaps he felt that he was entitled to hunt on his own land without a license, as I just discovered Vermont landowners can indeed do. But if their law states otherwise, then he no doubt will never serve a prison term but will pay a hefty fine. To "hide" the news would be worse than exposing the news.
People are pretty smart and will draw their own conclusions when the total facts are in.......but why is everyone afraid to respond ? Prisons are overcrowded and I doubt if they would go to prison for poaching or dismembering elk. In North Carolina a sweet little girl's murderer is the one who should be worrying right now. The buzz is that the dad used his woodchipper to dismember her body after she "died"; the stepmom wrote a fake ransom note.....it's little Zahra Baker I'm referring to.

Excellent post. I started to correct you when you said a felony is a felony. But you are correct as far as Montana felonies go. Some states have different classes of felonies. Not Montana. A felony is a felony in Montana. It is just the punishment that varies in Montana.

It is the same in your state of Vermont. North Carolina has different classes of felonies.

[mgm4444]

Is there a way the subject title to this thread could be changed?

I'll probably catch H-E double hockey sticks for my request, but everytime I log into TOTV and see this thread, I get sick to my stomach.

Not asking for feedback or a poll...just a request.

thanks

[The Shadow]

Ayup, however, I'm no expert but doesn't the butcher have to use some type of cleaver to cut through the bones. So much of the meat comes already packaged but some butcher someplace is using an electric gizmo which might be similar to a chainsaw. Any retired butchers out there?

I'm guessing again as I'm no hunter myself, but I think the deer in Vermont are taken home and hung up to age before they butcher them. Anyone know ? Some do it themselves and it wouldn't surprise me at all in the State of Vermont if the guys did use a chainsaw. Others took it to a butcher and I have no idea what they use to cut through the bones and carcass,etc.

My husband always defended his hunting with the fact that we all eat beef and chicken and other forms of meat that were once walking around before being killed. But that is another subject entirely.

The article in the paper was on trophy hunting not on the need for food.
In the late 60’s I could not get a job in my line of work so my uncle got me a job in a meat packing plant (AP) we cut 500 to 750 sides of beef a day. The side comes in on an overhead track it is put on a band saw and the first cut is made, the two pieces are put on a conveyer belt, a man on one side grabs ever like piece and puts it on another band saw. Those two pieces go back on the conveyer built. At this point four different cuts are on the conveyer. I do no remember how many saws were on the line. Meat cleavers and chain saws were not used. The beef was not killed at the plant. Butchers volunteered to cut pork on overtime it was not mandatory to cut pork. The butchers wear stainless steel mesh gloves but still a sharp pork bone can pass thru the mesh and pierce the skin resulting in a local shin infection ever time it happens. I lifted 70 to 120 pounds of meat every 30 to 45 seconds. I collected and weighted scraps at the end of the conveyor, The meat was used for hamburger. After 90 days the union head said I had to join the union, my reply you are nuts if you think I would pay you to work in this place. Goodbye. Oh the temp in the cutting room was 32.5 degrees.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3v2f4qireNn9uDd-Kv5k1oTewIA8ExJKdsNMZtIbqtyklQWRK

[nitehawk]

Lauren Richie stated, in another thread here, that it is her JOB to put slant on what she writes because she is a "columnist paid to write in such a way that it convinces readers" of her slant . . . which is bias. I think everyone here knows that her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias.

So why, when she writes in a "news" story, should we believe that this is objective, fact-only reporting and not sensationalism meant to convince readers of her slant against "The Rich"???

Who is everybodyy??? Everybody that reads or post on TV. I for one am glad to read about the IRS bond problem - yes it maybe bias - but thats her JOB. her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias. Do we know that for sure - has she been tried and convicted by everybody?? or just the TV participants "Don't throw stones at a glass house"

[senior citizen]

In the late 60’s I could not get a job in my line of work so my uncle got me a job in a meat packing plant (AP) we cut 500 to 750 sides of beef a day. The side comes in on an overhead track it is put on a band saw and the first cut is made, the two pieces are put on a conveyer belt, a man on one side grabs ever like piece and puts it on another band saw. Those two pieces go back on the conveyer built. At this point four different cuts are on the conveyer. I do no remember how many saws were on the line. Meat cleavers and chain saws were not used. The beef was not killed at the plant. Butchers volunteered to cut pork on overtime it was not mandatory to cut pork. The butchers wear stainless steel mesh gloves but still a sharp pork bone can pass thru the mesh and pierce the skin resulting in a local shin infection ever time it happens. I lifted 70 to 120 pounds of meat every 30 to 45 seconds. I collected and weighted scraps at the end of the conveyor, The meat was used for hamburger. After 90 days the union head said I had to join the union, my reply you are nuts if you think I would pay you to work in this place. Goodbye. Oh the temp in the cutting room was 32.5 degrees.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3v2f4qireNn9uDd-Kv5k1oTewIA8ExJKdsNMZtIbqtyklQWRK

The 32 degrees temperature sounds like a balmy day in Vermont, seriously.

This would be way before your time, however, a book written by Upton Sinclair exposed the terrible conditions in the meat packing or butchering industry long before unions ever existed.

THE JUNGLE is the name of the book and it was given to my husband when we first relocated to Vermont from New Jersey in 1970. He really wanted to press a point about unions I guess.

The fellow was a 40 year old artist craftsman from the old beatnik era in New York City and no doubt a socialist or perhaps even a communist. My husband was not interested in reading the book but I did read it and was shocked by the working conditions for these mostly, at the time, immigrant workers.

I do believe the unions helped their plight eventually. As a matter of fact, I was just thinking of that book recently as it pertained to some of the immigrants' hardships when they first came to our country in the late 1800's or early 1900's......while doing genealogy research of my own.

No one I know was in the meat business, however, the immigrants in THE JUNGLE suffered quite a bit from unkind bosses at the time. My father's ancestors had to work in the garment industry in N.Y.C. before turn of the century and that was just as bad. I'm sure things have changed with all the rules and regulations of modern times.

Driving out to Colorado this past summer we went past quite a few of the large cattle yards and I'm sure they are not leading a happy life either before they get slaughtered. Omaha Steaks and Kansas City Steaks are out that way.

You are lucky you never fell into the sausage vat like the poor soul in the JUNGLE by Upton Sinclair . Just kidding. It is a mind opening book to those who've never known the hardships of their immigrant ancestors. I read everything; this is why I wouldn't want newspaper censorship.

[senior citizen]

Who is everybodyy??? Everybody that reads or post on TV. I for one am glad to read about the IRS bond problem - yes it maybe bias - but thats her JOB. her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias. Do we know that for sure - has she been tried and convicted by everybody?? or just the TV participants "Don't throw stones at a glass house"

We actually know newspaper reporters here in our town. They are just doing their job.

I began reading the Orlando Sentinel when little Caylee Anthony went missing.......and check it out every now and then.

It is a scary paper to read with all the murders and other crimes daily.
Hopefully TV is far enough away so that it is not affected by the Orlando stuff and remains peacefully in its bubble, safe for all those who call it home or who would like to retire to central Florida.

[The Shadow]

To all do not buy hamburger in a tube you can not see thru that product is made in the meat packing plant. Why? No meat is wasted even if it is bad or on the floor.

[LuvItHere]

Who is everybodyy??? Everybody that reads or post on TV. I for one am glad to read about the IRS bond problem - yes it maybe bias - but thats her JOB. her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias. Do we know that for sure - has she been tried and convicted by everybody?? or just the TV participants "Don't throw stones at a glass house"

You are right. I definitely generalized on that one. I do think political party is at the root of much criticism or disdain of the Morses.

[eweissenbach]

Sorry, Shadow, I can't say thanks for the link. I don't think it has any relevance. It is nothing really new. We already knew Rainey left the carcass and kept the trophy head. The fact he cut off the legs is disgusting, cruel, ugly, but irrelevant.

I sincerely hope that Morse, Rainey, et al., get whatever is deserved. I know it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but everything I've read screams guilty. If I were on a jury in Montana for this case, I would have to be excused because I do believe all of the events occurred and I know them to be illegal.

As to Gracie, she really is as sweet as she sounds. She can (rarely) get cranky and even occasionally snaps, but on the whole she tries very hard to see the best in people. Heck, she even talks to me and gives me much needed hugs even though she knows I'm no fan of the Morses (TV, yes; the Morse family, no).

As to discussions in TV about this incident, it is definitely talked about. I play Mah-Jongg with a group of ladies whose knowledge of the internet is somewhere between slim and none. None of them have ever gone near TOTV that I know of. They all knew about the poaching. Three of them were upset about it; two really didn't see that it mattered in the grand scheme of TV; two didn't believe it all. So, if these seven women knew about this incident, I'm guessing it is pretty much common knowledge in TV.

Why should the link have not been posted? It is relevant to The Villages ownership and therefore a topic that many in TV would presumably have an interest in knowing. To love TV is fine, though I am sure there are a certain number of Villagers who do not agree, and that is their perogative, but they will not likely be on this website. Loving TV and worshiping the Morse family, are mutually exclusive IMO. Those who would advocate this should not be posted are guilty of favoring censorship. You can accept the story or not, but it is apparently big news in Montana and may become big news in TV. None of this would cause me a moments concern about living in The Villages, or loving the lifestyle.

[Number 6]

And it appears to be a very relevent topic on TOTV as this is post #89! Keep up the good work, Shadow!

[K9-Lovers]

Everytime someone posts something that is/could be/might be/may be a little bit negative, there are some people that make insinuations about the person who orginated the post. This happens especially to first-time posters as well as others who have been on this forum for a while, like this occurrence with Shadow.

The people who make the insinuations discourage people from posting. I find that annoying and dismaying.

There were already two very active threads about this topic when this thread was posted. Obviously, it is of interest to Villagers, or there would be no activity. And, Shadow made no comment for or against the content -- he merely provided information. I can understand why he reacted when insinuations were made about him.

If someone wants to comment on the CONTENT of a post, that is appropriate. Commenting on the character of the person who made the post is, at best, rude.

[eweissenbach]

Everytime someone posts something that is/could be/might be/may be a little bit negative, there are some people that make insinuations about the person who orginated the post. This happens especially to first-time posters as well as others who have been on this forum for a while, like this occurrence with Shadow.

The people who make the insinuations discourage people from posting. I find that annoying and dismaying.

There were already two very active threads about this topic when this thread was posted. Obviously, it is of interest to Villagers, or there would be no activity. And, Shadow made no comment for or against the content -- he merely provided information. I can understand why he reacted when insinuations were made about him.

If someone wants to comment on the CONTENT of a post, that is appropriate. Commenting on the character of the person who made the post is, at best, rude.

:agree: What he said!!!!!

[eweissenbach]

And it appears to be a very relevent topic on TOTV as this is post #89! Keep up the good work, Shadow!

Not to mention that the two threads I can find on this subject has generated over 7700 views in three days and Gracies post re: What is your perception of Gary Morse, has generated almost 8000 views. Apparently some high level of interest in what goes on with the developers.

[pooh]

Everytime someone posts something that is/could be/might be/may be a little bit negative, there are some people that make insinuations about the person who orginated the post. This happens especially to first-time posters as well as others who have been on this forum for a while, like this occurrence with Shadow.

The people who make the insinuations discourage people from posting. I find that annoying and dismaying.

There were already two very active threads about this topic when this thread was posted. Obviously, it is of interest to Villagers, or there would be no activity. And, Shadow made no comment for or against the content -- he merely provided information. I can understand why he reacted when insinuations were made about him.

If someone wants to comment on the CONTENT of a post, that is appropriate. Commenting on the character of the person who made the post is, at best, rude.

And as you said, there are two active threads on this particular topic already, why not post in one of those threads.

[Ajack]

Random Thoughts: Sensationalism is what my high school teacher would call it. For homework we had two newspapers in our local city to chose from. One was what she called the "scandal sheet" and the other was more "respectable." (her words).
Seems today, they are all scandal sheets. We as a civilization have digressed
in my humble opinion.
Been watching the television series, The Tudors. Now those were the days. When a Noble or other prominent citizen received the sentence of death, the townsfolk would show up for the free entertainment. Beheading, hanging, burned at the stake, the audience was thrilled to liven up their dreary existence. They yelled and hooted and whistled and had a jolly good time.

Come to think of it, they did the same kind of stuff in the Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart. I guess there is something in our nature that likes to see the rich and powerful fall. Maybe it started in modern times when the "media" took down Nixon and the reporters started glorifying the two that did the reporting. Now all the reporters want to be like the reporters who brought down the Presidency.
So, I guess we are the same people who were in the movies that were supposed to take place a long, long time ago.
The more things change-the more they are the same.

[Pturner]

Everytime someone posts something that is/could be/might be/may be a little bit negative, there are some people that make insinuations about the person who orginated the post. This happens especially to first-time posters as well as others who have been on this forum for a while, like this occurrence with Shadow.

The people who make the insinuations discourage people from posting. I find that annoying and dismaying.

There were already two very active threads about this topic when this thread was posted. Obviously, it is of interest to Villagers, or there would be no activity. And, Shadow made no comment for or against the content -- he merely provided information. I can understand why he reacted when insinuations were made about him.

If someone wants to comment on the CONTENT of a post, that is appropriate. Commenting on the character of the person who made the post is, at best, rude.

K9, I so agree with you about this. TOTVers commented about Michael Vick (before trial) and Tiger Woods. We comment about people on reality shows. Why would we have no interest in what the media is reporting about the developer of TV? I don't understand that.

I understand criticism of the slant of the Orlando Sentinels' article. I don't understand objections to subjecting the article for comment on TOTV. Some said the article did not contain new information, although it actually contained new information about affidavits that were filed in the case.

Shadow was asked why he posted it. He answered that he posted it because he thought TOTVers would be interested. (Apparently he was right.) He was later accused of not answering the question. It might not be the answer people wanted. People might not believe him. People might have already made up their minds why he posted it. OK. But he gave an answered and still stands accused of not doing so.

Are we shooting the messenger because we don't want to know what we don't want to know? If not for this reason, why?

[Chi-Town]

If you Google Mark Morse Elk Montana you will see that this has gotten some national attention. And you will get a feel for how ticked off Montana is. But I guess the worse thing is perception. When you tout your development as nature friendly be careful about tainting that reputation.

[eweissenbach]

[QUOTE=Ajack;307658]Random Thoughts:

...........Been watching the television series, The Tudors. Now those were the days. When a Noble or other prominent citizen received the sentence of death, the townsfolk would show up for the free entertainment. Beheading, hanging, burned at the stake, the audience was thrilled to liven up their dreary existence. They yelled and hooted and whistled and had a jolly good time.

Come to think of it, they did the same kind of stuff in the Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart. I guess there is something in our nature that likes to see the rich and powerful fall.............

I for one, take no pleasure in seeing the rich and powerful fall. I am interested in seeing justice for the arrogant and selfish, whether rich, poor, or middle class. There are many wealthy people, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, and Michael Bloomberg come to mind, that take the responsibility of their wealth very seriously, and attempt to do some good for mankind as a whole.

[Ajack]

Sanctimonious comes to mind, also.

[K9-Lovers]

And as you said, there are two active threads on this particular topic already, why not post in one of those threads.

Pooh, what is wrong with starting a new thread? The answer is: nothing. There is nothing wrong with the way this new information was presented.

Sometimes, when a particular thread is so very, very long. I stop following it. Or, if I never started reading it, I never start because it is so long. Perhaps Shadow felt the same way. Or perhaps he thought this particular LINK TO the article deserved it's own thread. Or perhaps . . or maybe . . . or whatever . . . It doesn't matter. Starting a new thread is what we do here on this forum. I post a lot of dog-related videos. Should I load them all onto the same thread? Is it wrong for me to start a new thread for each one? There is no right or wrong answer.

The comment posted "I have to wonder why such a thread was started" insinuated that there must be some reason other than the sharing of information. That comment insinuates something NEGATIVE about the character of the original poster. I'm sorry, but in my book, that is RUDE. Then all the other followers agreed in a pack-mentality. If your motives were questioned in such a way after posting something you thought was of interest, your feelings would be hurt and you might lash out as well.

Bottom line is -- these negative insinuations make lurkers and wannabe-posters think twice about joining TOTV or making posts. And, that hurts TOTV.

[Ajack]

Pooh, what is wrong with starting a new thread? The answer is: nothing. There is nothing wrong with the way this new information was presented.

Sometimes, when a particular thread is so very, very long. I stop following it. Or, if I never started reading it, I never start because it is so long. Perhaps Shadow felt the same way. Or perhaps he thought this particular LINK TO the article deserved it's own thread. Or perhaps . . or maybe . . . or whatever . . . It doesn't matter. Starting a new thread is what we do here on this forum. I post a lot of dog-related videos. Should I load them all onto the same thread? Is it wrong for me to start a new thread for each one? There is no right or wrong answer.

The comment posted "I have to wonder why such a thread was started" insinuated that there must be some reason other than the sharing of information. That comment insinuates something NEGATIVE about the character of the original poster. I'm sorry, but in my book, that is RUDE. Then all the other followers agreed in a pack-mentality. If your motives were questioned in such a way after posting something you thought was of interest, your feelings would be hurt and you might lash out as well.

Bottom line is -- these negative insinuations make lurkers and wannabe-posters think twice about joining TOTV or making posts. And, that hurts TOTV.

Telling people they have a "pack mentality" and calling people "rude"? Pooh has every right to question motives, after all, people here are judging, and hanging people without a trial. This is not rude, too?

[loonlovers]

As a new resident of The Villages (who's been a long time viewer of TOTV but infrequent poster) I am very saddened by the tone and tenor of this thread. I would hope that civility is not fading in this wonderful community.

[pooh]

Pooh, what is wrong with starting a new thread? The answer is: nothing. There is nothing wrong with the way this new information was presented.

Sometimes, when a particular thread is so very, very long. I stop following it. Or, if I never started reading it, I never start because it is so long. Perhaps Shadow felt the same way. Or perhaps he thought this particular LINK TO the article deserved it's own thread. Or perhaps . . or maybe . . . or whatever . . . It doesn't matter. Starting a new thread is what we do here on this forum. I post a lot of dog-related videos. Should I load them all onto the same thread? Is it wrong for me to start a new thread for each one? There is no right or wrong answer.

The comment posted "I have to wonder why such a thread was started" insinuated that there must be some reason other than the sharing of information. That comment insinuates something NEGATIVE about the character of the original poster. I'm sorry, but in my book, that is RUDE. Then all the other followers agreed in a pack-mentality. If your motives were questioned in such a way after posting something you thought was of interest, your feelings would be hurt and you might lash out as well.

Bottom line is -- these negative insinuations make lurkers and wannabe-posters think twice about joining TOTV or making posts. And, that hurts TOTV.

Keeping similar topics in fewer threads, habit more than anything else. It's how it's done on other boards I visit and the one I moderate. It can indeed make one particular thread long and I understand that it can be a real pain trying to get up to speed, but it does keep the topic "contained" so to speak.

Message boards can be a difficult arena for those not used to them, but all can ask questions. If one questions motives, it's not right? Asking that one not question can seem wrong to those that do. There are lots of things we can learn from reading and writing on message boards. We learn something about the way a person writes, we learn just a bit about their personality, over time we can recognize their prose without even seeing their name. You learn how they can use their words to get their message across...some are nicer than others in doing so and some can have many rallying for their "cause" with little effort. We are attracted or shy away from people who write on boards because of what and how they write.

One thing to consider is that some new members might just have been lurkers for a while before jumping in....they could be well aware of the emotional ups and downs that are part and parcel of boards. I agree they shouldn't be "attacked" but remember, Shadow isn't a novice here, he's been around for a while and personally, I have not attacked him as a person, just questioned why. Learning to "fight fairly" on boards takes practice and at times can seem very difficult, for newer posters as well as seasoned veterans.

[pooh]

As a new resident of The Villages (who's been a long time viewer of TOTV but infrequent poster) I am very saddened by the tone and tenor of this thread. I would hope that civility is not fading in this wonderful community.

Welcome to TV loonlovers! I know you're going to love your new community.

Don't worry about the back and forth banter of this particular thread.....it's nothing more than you might find if all were in a room together, talking over munchies and drinks, really. Some topics bring out more of an emotional response than others and soon, all will be on to another topic.

Jump in, write, it's nice to have another voice "heard."...:)

[Ajack]

Keeping similar topics in fewer threads, habit more than anything else. It's how it's done on other boards I visit and the one I moderate. It can indeed make one particular thread long and I understand that it can be a real pain trying to get up to speed, but it does keep the topic "contained" so to speak.

Message boards can be a difficult arena for those not used to them, but all can ask questions. If one questions motives, it's not right? Asking that one not question can seem wrong to those that do. There are lots of things we can learn from reading and writing on message boards. We learn something about the way a person writes, we learn just a bit about their personality, over time we can recognize their prose without even seeing their name. You learn how they can use their words to get their message across...some are nicer than others in doing so and some can have many rallying for their "cause" with little effort. We are attracted or shy away from people who write on board because of what and how they write.

One thing to consider is that some new members might just have been lurkers for a while before jumping in....they could be well aware of the emotional ups and downs that are part and parcel of boards. I agree they shouldn't be "attacked" but remember, Shadow isn't a novice here, he's been around for a while and personally, I have not attacked him as a person, just questioned why. Learning to "fight fairly" on boards takes practice and at times can seem very difficult, for newer posters as well as seasoned veterans.

The voice of reason. Pooh, you are one heck of a writer.

[Pturner]

Welcome to TV loonlovers! I know you're going to love your new community.

Don't worry about the back and forth banter of this particular thread.....it's nothing more than you might find if all were in a room together, talking over munchies and drinks, really. Some topics bring out more of an emotional response than others and soon, all will be on to another topic.

Jump in, write, it's nice to have another voice "heard."...:)

Loonlovers, welcome. Please don't be discouraged. As Pooh noted, this issue has drawn passionate opinions on several fronts.

Pooh is a dear friend of mine. I truly love her. Gracie too. The fact that we to see this particular issue differently does not diminish my esteem, admiration or love for them. I hope and believe that they don't think less of me either.

I do try to explain my reasonings for my views such that people can understand my perspective whether or not they agree. However, I
hope that I will never express an opinion with such certainty, lack of humility and/or hostility toward the other side that friendship and respect becomes strained or impossible. I think some of the political threads get that way and I avoid them. I hope this thread didn't strike you that way. If I ever do anything like that, I hope someone will take a chainsaw to what is left of my P(ea) brain. Or at least take me aside and let me know that I've crossed a line.

Please don't think ill of us, Loonlovers. We mean well.

[joannej]

K9, I so agree with you about this. TOTVers commented about Michael Vick (before trial) and Tiger Woods. We comment about people on reality shows. Why would we have no interest in what the media is reporting about the developer of TV? I don't understand that.

I understand criticism of the slant of the Orlando Sentinels' article. I don't understand objections to subjecting the article for comment on TOTV. Some said the article did not contain new information, although it actually contained new information about affidavits that were filed in the case.

Shadow was asked why he posted it. He answered that he posted it because he thought TOTVers would be interested. (Apparently he was right.) He was later accused of not answering the question. It might not be the answer people wanted. People might not believe him. People might have already made up their minds why he posted it. OK. But he gave an answered and still stands accused of not doing so.

Are we shooting the messenger because we don't want to know what we don't want to know? If not for this reason, why?
_________________________________________________

:agree:

[pooh]

Loonlovers, welcome. Please don't be discouraged. As Pooh noted, this issue has drawn passionate opinions on several fronts.

Pooh is a dear friend of mine. I truly love her. Gracie too. The fact that we to see this particular issue differently does not diminish my esteem, admiration or love for them. I hope and believe that they don't think less of me either.

I do try to explain my reasonings for my views such that people can understand my perspective whether or not they agree. However, I
hope that I will never express an opinion with such certainty, lack of humility and/or hostility toward the other side that friendship and respect becomes strained or impossible. I think some of the political threads get that way and I avoid them. I hope this thread didn't strike you that way. If I ever do anything like that, I hope someone will take a chainsaw to what is left of my P(ea) brain. Or at least take me aside and let me know that I've crossed a line.

Please don't think ill of us, Loonlovers. We mean well.

Vive la difference.....without which, this place could become very boring.

Love ya, too!

[K9-Lovers]

Methinks that justifying our actions, a common human frailty, could be considered the eighth deadly sin.

Me also thinks that Ms. Manners would approve of agreeing to disagree.

If I may borrow part of a phrase from PTurner, "The fact that we see this particular issue differently does not diminish my esteem, admiration or love for . . ." those who disagree with me, or those by whom I am offended.

[pooh]

Methinks that justifying our actions, a common human frailty, could be considered the eighth deadly sin.

Me also thinks that Ms. Manners would approve of agreeing to disagree.

If I may borrow part of a phrase from PTurner, "The fact that we see this particular issue differently does not diminish my esteem, admiration or love for . . ." those who disagree with me, or those by whom I am offended.

PT can turn a phrase so to speak, can't she. She's right, we can disagree and still feel esteem, admiration, respect and love for our friends here.

[redwitch]

The main reason I don't believe there is any reason for this thread is that it is NOT about Mark Morse, the story is really about Rainey and we really should be careful to not confuse the two. Plus, the title of the thread is as sensational as any found in the grocery store tabloids.

It seems the actions we find most objectionable -- the cutting off the head and leaving the carcass; the dressing of the legs to get a better photo -- were done by Rainey. Morse hunted out of season, he hunted without a license, he fraudulently attributed a kill to another's license. So far as we know, he did not waste any meat. The ranch where the carcasses were found was owned by both Morse and Rainey, so Morse may truly have been innocent of those vile actions.

What I can't understand is why Mark Morse's fines are potentially higher than Rainey's. I get the feeling the whole story isn't out yet. But I want the story on Morse, not Rainey.

[Ajack]

[quote=eweissenbach;307678]Random Thoughts:

...........Been watching the television series, The Tudors. Now those were the days. When a Noble or other prominent citizen received the sentence of death, the townsfolk would show up for the free entertainment. Beheading, hanging, burned at the stake, the audience was thrilled to liven up their dreary existence. They yelled and hooted and whistled and had a jolly good time.

Come to think of it, they did the same kind of stuff in the Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart. I guess there is something in our nature that likes to see the rich and powerful fall.............

I for one, take no pleasure in seeing the rich and powerful fall. I am interested in seeing justice for the arrogant and selfish, whether rich, poor, or middle class. There are many wealthy people, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, and Michael Bloomberg come to mind, that take the responsibility of their wealth very seriously, and attempt to do some good for mankind as a whole.






You are interested in seeing justice for the arrogant and selfish? Is it against the law to be arrogant? We would lose a few of our TOTV members if that is the case. Who would judge the arrogant?
Again, is it against the law to be selfish?

Do you know Bill Gates? You don't grow to be the richest man alive by being a fool. It takes business savvy. When did Mr. Gates decide to be ungreedy? You have to be fairly "greedy" to accumulate wealth, no? Rumors are that he wasn't always doing good for mankind. Maybe he started to give money away for PR? Maybe it is a tax write-off?
When your worth billions and billions, what's giving a few away really mean? I bet he wasn't giving alot of money away when he was as poor as Mr. Morse?

I guess rich is relative? My point is that life is more complicated and the more money you have the more complicated it gets. Who would be in a position to judge a rich man? You? Me? If he is judged by his "peers," do we have to find zillionaires to be on the jury?
Ok.I'm through with my little rant. Back to your regularly scheduled activity.

[K9-Lovers]

Ok.I'm through with my little rant. Back to your regularly scheduled activity.

:icon_wink: Whew! Me, too. I'm finished also! It feels good to get those kind of things off your chest. :o

But, there's one thing that still makes me feel badly. I just figured out that I have been rude, too, by pointing out that someone else was rude.:oops:

So, please forgive me TOTV buddies, if I get carried away sometimes. Having conversations, disagreements, and sharing viewpoints with all of you is so enjoyable, sometimes I may say more than I should.:sigh:

[Ajack]

[QUOTE=K9-Lovers;307772][B]



But, there's one thing that still makes me feel badly. I just figured out that I have been rude, too, by pointing out that someone else was rude.:oops:

I find myself a little rough around the edges. I am really trying to see the other guys point of view. It isn't always easy in the heat of the moment.
Some people get crusty when they age. I am trying to do it in reverse order. I figure by the time I'm 120 years old, I should be mellow.

[Barefoot]

And as you said, there are two active threads on this particular topic already, why not post in one of those threads.

Honestly, I just don't understand why members question the right of other members to start a thread. Why not comment on the topic or ignore the thread? Adding your posts to a thread you find distastefuly simply prolongs its life.

[graciegirl]

:confused:Honestly, I just don't understand why members question the right of other members to start a thread. Why not comment on the topic or ignore the thread? Adding your posts to a thread you find distastefuly simply prolongs its life.

That would be me Bare. I was the first to question. Probably because I am old and stupid and probably because I hated the words of the title. (made me cringe) and probably because I still feel so bad to find that Mark Morse and/or his family members and guests broke the law. AND I didn't have to read it...but I did. AND I didn't have to respond, but I did.

And maybe..........actually...

Shadow, sometimes you seem so Shadowy.

Answer the question, Can you show your birth certificate and do you live somewhere here in The Villages? (JUST kidding on the first request)

Because...now that I find out that the Morses aren't perfect...I would be glad to know that you too have a place in their almost perfect place for people of a certain age...a place that makes them feel that they aren't of a certain age. But, I ask again..do you have a home in The villages?

Worse yet Shadow...I have to ask. ARE YOU OLD??? Because the more you fill in the details of your life, the more I like you. Would YOU care for a cookie?

[Ajack]

The whippersnapper might answer your question when he comes back into the house from playing in the sandbox.

I think he is looking for more dirt.:a040: (all in the spirit of kidding, of course)

[The Shadow]

:confused:

That would be me Bare. I was the first to question. Probably because I am old and stupid and probably because I hated the words of the title. (made me cringe) and probably because I still feel so bad to find that Mark Morse and/or his family members and guests broke the law. AND I didn't have to read it...but I did. AND I didn't have to respond, but I did.

And maybe..........actually...

Shadow, sometimes you seem so Shadowy.

Answer the question, Can you show your birth certificate and do you live somewhere here in The Villages? (JUST kidding on the first request)

Because...now that I find out that the Morses aren't perfect...I would be glad to know that you too have a place in their almost perfect place for people of a certain age...a place that makes them feel that they aren't of a certain age. But, I ask again..do you have a home in The villages?

Worse yet Shadow...I have to ask. ARE YOU OLD??? Because the more you fill in the details of your life, the more I like you. Would YOU care for a cookie?
What I am willing to tell you is this has not one, not one thing to do with this thread. You all complain about starting a new thread and you post stuff that is irrelevant. My age has nothing to do with pouching in Montana.

But because I do not want to read 14 posts about how I owe you an explanation I will tell you this.

I am aware I am monitored by management they have told me so.

I am really, really big on free speech nobody tells me what to say I do avoid crossing a line that will result in unwanted consequences. I like topics with facts like Montana, IRS, Gates. I am not interested in threads on how to train your dog to poop in a plastic bag.:doggie:

As to the personal questions about my body….
It is senior in nature it houses a teenager within it is male with all appendages in working order, none smoking, none drinking, it has a hot tub craving.

Would I like a cookie? I have a preference for muffins.

Where do I live? At the risk of getting my house TPed by the TV clowns.
************************************************** *********************************** I will have SOMETHING hanging on the pole light. We also have a black ***** *** parked in the driveway.:1rotfl:

Now let’s get back to pouching in Montana.

That is some funny stuff.

[redwitch]

Do they have kangaroos in Montana? I know they have some other marsupials, so I guess we can discuss their pouches if you'd like. Probably be a lot more fun than the ugliness of poaching.

[redwitch]

And, folks, be aware that that is NOT The Shadow's home -- that's Gracie's. Shame on yer! (But it is funny, sorry, Grace.)

[Taltarzac]

And, folks, be aware that that is NOT The Shadow's home -- that's Gracie's. Shame on yer! (But it is funny, sorry, Grace.)

It looked like the Shadow visited gracie's home on one of her get togethers from the Thank You in one of Shadow's posts. https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299194&postcount=3

This is a very interesting take on the poaching case against the Morse family and friends. The Comments are also worth a look. They seem less ****ed off than the Comments from the Orlando Sentinel.

Video-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html?video=pop&t=a

Comments on Morse poaching cases-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html#commentform

[The Shadow]

And, folks, be aware that that is NOT The Shadow's home -- that's Gracie's. Shame on yer! (But it is funny, sorry, Grace.)

See by doing that it proves I am older than G’girl. I have learned two things she has not lived long enough learn. One never advertise on the net where you live and two do not take cookies from strangers.

[Ajack]

See by doing that it proves I am older than G’girl. I have learned two things she has not lived long enough learn. One never advertise on the net where you live and two do not take cookies from strangers.

You could learn alot from Gracie. Don't compliment yourself by assuming your even in her league.

[redwitch]

See by doing that it proves I am older than G’girl. I have learned two things she has not lived long enough learn. One never advertise on the net where you live and two do not take cookies from strangers.

It may prove a lot of things, but only that you shouldn't post your address on the net. I agree with Ajack (now, that's a scary concept), you could learn a lot from Gracie and she is truly in a league of her own -- one the rest of us can only hope to reach.

[kentucky blue]

:

Because...now that I find out that the Morses aren't perfect...

Sooooooooooooo Gracie,looks like i'm your last hope for perfection:icon_wink:By the way, Happy Birthday to you and Dee. I must say,Dee you look really gooooooooooooooooood for somebody born in 1904,what's your secret??? Back on topic,Morses will get their day in court. Punishment has already begun, with their public image dragged through the mud, only the penalty phase is left to be decided. Finally, some of the posters on this thread need to mellow out a bitchilout

[BobKat1]

See by doing that it proves I am older than G’girl. I have learned two things she has not lived long enough learn. One never advertise on the net where you live and two do not take cookies from strangers.

A good reminder. Thanks.

[duffysmom]

Folks it's dangerous to advertise your address on any forum. I find the Shadow's message about GG's home creepy. :yuck:

[Larry Wilson]

Duffysmom, Gracie had already posted it and invited everyone to her house on two seperate months.

[Barefoot]

That would be me Bare. I was the first to question. Probably because I am old and stupid and probably because I hated the words of the title. (made me cringe) and probably because I still feel so bad to find that Mark Morse and/or his family members and guests broke the law. AND I didn't have to read it...but I did. AND I didn't have to respond, but I did.


Graciegirl, I've known you for three years and you're definitely not old and stupid. Au contraire. By the way, Shadow's post about you being on the Developer's payroll ... :a20:

Yes, the words of the title are definitely distasteful and designed to make us cringe and then read the thread. Yet Shadow has a perfect right to post whatever he wants; and the Admins can decide the outcome. I don't think whether he is a Village resident is important. But I think he definitely likes to stir the pot. And so far he has been very successful.

Sorry I hijacked, :police: .. back to the distasteful topic.

[Talk Host]

I have removed all direct references to the private address that was being discussed here as well as in the "invitation" thread from earlier this month.

Please, never post your address or phone number on this forum. Never post anybody else's address or phone number. That's not an option on Talk of The Villages. We will remove all private phone numbers and addresses.

JLK

[Taltarzac]

the Video-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html?video=pop&t=a

Comments on Morse poaching cases-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html#commentform

The video even has a short shot of the Villages which looks like something from one of the webcams in TV. I did not realize that deer (?) sometimes hop when they walk.

[Taj44]

...Comments on Morse poaching cases-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html#commentform

Thanks for posting that link. Interesting to read the comments from actual people in Montana:

This man's company is as shady as they come. Anything less than 500 million dollars is a simple slap on the wrist for this man...Its nice to see them do something about poachers...the wildlife of montana belong to the people of montana, not non-resident hunters;...

These people should lose their property and be givin to the people of Montana. These kind of crimes make me sick....... hope those people see their day in court and pay for stealing from the tax payers in Montana...This is a demonstration of the wealthy who believe they are above the law...

...I do not have any problem with people who poach wildgame if they need the meat to feed thier family. In this economy with so many people out of work Montanans should be able to kill a deer to feed their family. But kill a doe and leave the bucks and bulls alone. Shooting animals just for thier horns is b.s.

[duffysmom]

Duffysmom, Gracie had already posted it and invited everyone to her house on two seperate months.

I'm well aware of GG's posting and generous invitations. My posting was a warning to others not to do the same. Shadow's remarks were creepy and an example of what can happen when we give too much information on a public forum. Personally, I use my weapon of mass destruction as my avatar as a warning to stay away. :boxing2:

Thank you Talk Host for removing the information.

[duffysmom]

the Video-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html?video=pop&t=a

Comments on Morse poaching cases-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html#commentform

The video even has a short shot of the Villages which looks like something from one of the webcams in TV. I did not realize that deer (?) sometimes hop when they walk.


Tal, I believe that the bouncing animal is an antelope.

http://www.westyellowstonenet.com/wildlife/antelope.php

[graciegirl]

It looked like the Shadow visited gracie's home on one of her get togethers from the Thank You in one of Shadow's posts. https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299194&postcount=3

This is a very interesting take on the poaching case against the Morse family and friends. The Comments are also worth a look. They seem less ****ed off than the Comments from the Orlando Sentinel.

Video-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html?video=pop&t=a

Comments on Morse poaching cases-- http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Montana-Poaching-Case-106743783.html#commentform

The Shadow has not been to our home. Unless his name is George. George is the only one I hadn't hooked up with a screen name. And he was at our second get together. A real nice fellow, George. Shadow said he was here the first time. I knew every person who was there the first time.

Talk Host kindly warned me not to even give that much information. I did NOT give out our house number.

I ask you Shadow, in the interest of knowing why you post the way you do. Do you own a home in The villages??? I kinda think you don't. You accused me of working for the Morses.

[graciegirl]

Graciegirl, I've known you for three years and you're definitely not old and stupid. Au contraire. By the way, Shadow's post about you being on the Developer's payroll ... :a20:

Yes, the words of the title are definitely distasteful and designed to make us cringe and then read the thread. Yet Shadow has a perfect right to post whatever he wants; and the Admins can decide the outcome. I don't think whether he is a Village resident is important. But I think he definitely likes to stir the pot. And so far he has been very successful.

Sorry I hijacked, :police: .. back to the distasteful topic.

Thank you Bare. Your opinion is important to me. You have never posted anything on this forum that was mean or unfair. That is how I choose the folks I look up to.

[REDCART]

The Shadow has not been to our home. Unless his name is George. George is the only one I hadn't hooked up with a screen name. And he was at our second get together. A real nice fellow, George. Shadow said he was here the first time. I knew every person who was there the first time.

Talk Host kindly warned me not to even give that much information. I did NOT give out our house number.

I ask you Shadow, in the interest of knowing why you post the way you do. Do you own a home in The villages??? I kinda think you don't. You accused me of working for the Morses.

Grace, I sent you a PM Tuesday thanking you and hubby for your hospitality. I would not post your address and I've never had the pleasure of meeting the Shadow.

George

[Barefoot]

I'm well aware of GG's posting and generous invitations. Shadow's remarks were creepy and an example of what can happen when we give too much information on a public forum.

I agree with Duffysmom that Shadow's remarks were creepy. Kind of a "I know where you live" implied threat. But perhaps he is just a regular guy trying to be funny.

[graciegirl]

Thank you George. I knew you weren't at all Shadowy. Your name is the only one that I didn't hook up right away to your screen name. I know you didn't tell anyone my address. I am sorry if I sounded at all suspicious of you.

[Vichyssoise]

I could be wrong but I think butchers use a machine similar to a bandsaw.

I think you are correct. I remember Christopher and Furio using one after hours at Centanni's Meat Market a few times. :jester: