Deep Thinkers 2

[SHIBUMI]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

[retiredguy123]

A theory is:

"a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena."

Theories are not proven. They are either accepted or not.

[ThirdOfFive]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.
So is the choice between evolution and creation? Did things "just happen" and then bumbled along haphazardly from there, resulting in the world we have today? Sorry, I don't buy it. The reason is as follows.

"Most people know about DNA (aka deoxyribonucleic acid) as the molecule that holds the information, i.e. the genetic codes, within our bodies. What some people don’t realise is that this equates to a seriously large amount of information being stored within a single biomolecule. DNA molecules can store up to 215 petabytes, or 215 million gigabytes, of data in a single doubled stranded molecule, making it one of the highest storage density mediums in the world. Simply put, the information storage devices within our bodies are much more capable than we can currently create, so there has been a lot of focus in trying to harness the power and data storage capabilities of DNA for our own man-made data storage systems." (Electro pages: storing information and data with DNA). ONE petabyte contains 500 billion pages of standard printed text. Multiply that by 215... I am not sure I can comprehend a number that large. That number is contained in a "database" if you can call it that, that exists on a submicroscopic level. Asking somebody to believe that that "just happened" is beyond ludicrous. The watch proves the existence of the watchmaker

That said, I'm not convinced that the fossil record is solid proof of anything. So few living things become fossils; conditions have to be just right for fossilization to happen. I recall hearing something recently that may be one in 100,000 animals or plants become fossils, and even with the ones that do become fossils, there is no guarantee that they will be found, or that they will not be destroyed in some natural event such as a flood, volcano, or whatever. To me, expecting the fossil record to be a reliable chronology of development is like depending on a calendar with maybe five numbers on it to be the reliable chronology of the number of days in a decade.

But we can use reasoning. We know, or think we know, two things. Fossils exist, and the earth changes. Oftentimes those changes in the earth are widespread and drastic. Assuming the existence of a creator God, we can also assume intelligence and foreknowledge on the part of that God. If God created the physical environment to change, as it does, then is it not reasonable to assume that God also provided the life he created to adapt according to the changes of the physical environment? Again, assuming the existence of that God, the answer cannot be no. The proof is that we are here.

I have never seen evolution versus creation as an either/or thing. In my mind they exist together working perfectly in tandem. They always have.

[Blueblaze]

They probably teach evolution because they've found "missing links" for nearly every line -- from humans to horses, to sharks, to whales, to aardvarks and dinosaurs. It's a "theory" the same way gravity is just a "theory". The proof is so obvious and everywhere that that you need to invent a religion in order to ignore it.

What's really amazing, is the incredible string of coincidences that must occur in order to preserve a fossil. I'm astounded that we have even one fossil of Lucy -- our ape-man "missing link" ancestor known as Australopithecus. In fact, we have dozens of examples. It's yet another example of the ludicrous impossibility of our universe.

And it's yet more evidence that our universe was engineered by a bored deity, and not the result of rolling a seven umpteen trillion times.

[Blueblaze]

I am amazed that a human being can watch a virus evolve from deadly to harmless in a mere three years, and still claim that there is no proof for the "theory" of evolution.

And I am amazed that a human being can understand that the same virus is comprised of the same chains of the same proteins found in a human cell nucleus, and yet, insist that we have no common ancestor with that virus -- because when Darwin first noticed evolution and described it in 1859, he didn't include all the answers to every question about evolution in his book.

And I am astounded that the same person will then point to his Holy Book, which was written 3,000 years before the discovery of DNA, and tell you that evolution cannot possibly be true because it is not mentioned in his 3,000-year-old Holy Book. He'll then go on to tell you that there has not been enough time for evolution to work because the Universe is only 6,000 years old. He knows this because he added up the ages of all the people mentioned in his Holy Book, and that's the number he got.

Simply astounding!

[Whitley]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.


It is not even "A" missing link. There would be hundreds of links, transitional fossils, to fill in the evolution gap, and thousands of samples of each link. We have never come up with one. Some say there exists missing link(s) because of the incompleteness of the fossil record. That is the point. We have fossil records of of pre anthropoidal yet nothing from then to modern man. We made a jump yet there is no fossil record to fill in the gap.

[ThirdOfFive]

It is not even "A" missing link. There would be hundreds of links, transitional fossils, to fill in the evolution gap, and thousands of samples of each link. We have never come up with one. Some say there exists missing link(s) because of the incompleteness of the fossil record. That is the point. We have fossil records of of pre anthropoidal yet nothing from then to modern man. We made a jump yet there is no fossil record to fill in the gap.
" We made a jump yet there is no fossil record to fill in the gap."

Yet.

[Stu from NYC]

I am amazed that a human being can watch a virus evolve from deadly to harmless in a mere three years, and still claim that there is no proof for the "theory" of evolution.

And I am amazed that a human being can understand that the same virus is comprised of the same chains of the same proteins found in a human cell nucleus, and yet, insist that we have no common ancestor with that virus -- because when Darwin first noticed evolution and described it in 1859, he didn't include all the answers to every question about evolution in his book.

And I am astounded that the same person will then point to his Holy Book, which was written 3,000 years before the discovery of DNA, and tell you that evolution cannot possibly be true because it is not mentioned in his 3,000-year-old Holy Book. He'll then go on to tell you that there has not been enough time for evolution to work because the Universe is only 6,000 years old. He knows this because he added up the ages of all the people mentioned in his Holy Book, and that's the number he got.

Simply astounding!

Some of us think the Old Testament is a lot more than just a book.

[Stu from NYC]

Why do we need a deep thinkers two?

[ThirdOfFive]

Why do we need a deep thinkers two?
We do.

Maybe even three or four...

[PugMom]

any Family Guy fan knows the big bang was a result of God lighting his f@r+s on fire----

[PugMom]

any Family Guy fan knows the big bang was a result of God lighting his f@r+s on fire----

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/familyguy/images/b/b6/4x27.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20070122104113

[PugMom]

i can't seem to remove the duplicate post. help me Moderator? :pray:

[DAVES]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

Taught in schools? "Science is fact not fictional theories." So much Science taught in schools is not fact but SPUN current thought. We all know the earth is flat and the planets revolve around the earth. Much of education is indoctrination. Few teachers are educated enough, bright enough or have the time to discuss these things.

[Gpsma]

Amazing that people still believe in some god...a sky daddy..that controls everything.

[ElDiabloJoe]

...

Theories are not proven. They are either accepted or not.

You are incorrect, I believe. When a theory is "proven," it becomes a scientific LAW. Like the theory of gravity became the law of gravity. Same with physics and others.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Amazing that people still believe in some god...a sky daddy..that controls everything.
What I believe is that a being many times more "evolved" than us, so much as to appear "God-like" created a set of rules (scientific laws) to govern his creation and put us and it in motion to go on for many millennia.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I am amazed that a human being can watch a virus evolve from deadly to harmless in a mere three years, and still claim that there is no proof for the "theory" of evolution.

And I am amazed that a human being can understand that the same virus is comprised of the same chains of the same proteins found in a human cell nucleus, and yet, insist that we have no common ancestor with that virus -- because when Darwin first noticed evolution and described it in 1859, he didn't include all the answers to every question about evolution in his book.

And I am astounded that the same person will then point to his Holy Book, which was written 3,000 years before the discovery of DNA, and tell you that evolution cannot possibly be true because it is not mentioned in his 3,000-year-old Holy Book. He'll then go on to tell you that there has not been enough time for evolution to work because the Universe is only 6,000 years old. He knows this because he added up the ages of all the people mentioned in his Holy Book, and that's the number he got.

Simply astounding!

Yes, viruses can evolve. And species can evolve but there has never been any absolute proof of one species evolving into another.

[retiredguy123]

You are incorrect, I believe. When a theory is "proven," it becomes a scientific LAW. Like the theory of gravity became the law of gravity. Same with physics and others.
I think that is just semantics. Who has the authority to elevate a theory into a law?

[Keefelane66]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.
On the eighth day it’s all explained in Ken Ham’s Creation Museum where Jesus played with Dinosaurs

Darwin’s Book “Origin of Species” introduced it as a THEORY through Natural Selection.

[Decadeofdave]

I feel like I walked into a mensa meeting.

[Blueblaze]

It is not even "A" missing link. There would be hundreds of links, transitional fossils, to fill in the evolution gap, and thousands of samples of each link. We have never come up with one. Some say there exists missing link(s) because of the incompleteness of the fossil record. That is the point. We have fossil records of of pre anthropoidal yet nothing from then to modern man. We made a jump yet there is no fossil record to fill in the gap.

No missing links? Who told you that?

Oh, look... here's one right here: Lucy (Australopithecus) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus))

[Blueblaze]

Yes, viruses can evolve. And species can evolve but there has never been any absolute proof of one species evolving into another.

Don't be silly. There are thousands of examples of one species evolving into another one. We have fossils and we have DNA studies. In fact, we can trace mitochondrial DNA back to "LUCY", an ape that walked upright in Africa 3 million years ago, proving that we share a common ancestor. Not only that, 98% of human DNA is identical to chimpanzee DNA.

Just because you aren't aware of a thing does not mean that it does not exist.

[Worldseries27]

don't be silly. There are thousands of examples of one species evolving into another one. We have fossils and we have dna studies. In fact, we can trace mitochondrial dna back to "lucy", an ape that walked upright in africa 3 million years ago, proving that we share a common ancestor. Not only that, 98% of human dna is identical to chimpanzee dna.

Just because you aren't aware of a thing does not mean that it does not exist.
i'm always astounded when i watch the human like behavior of chimps and apes. The emotional bonds are amazing. At the top of the list is the love all animals share with their young. So it seems we are all connected in a design we have yet to discover.

[AZ SLIM]

What?! There's no big foot?

[Worldseries27]

we do.

Maybe even three or four...
i like deep thinkers, i cannot lie
at least 7/9 times.

[skarra]

Like politics, Religion should also be banned on this board.

Nothing productive comes from it

[Worldseries27]

i feel like i walked into a mensa meeting.
so many theories and not humble opinions.
If this guy got it wrong
anyone can

[jimbomaybe]

So is the choice between evolution and creation? Did things "just happen" and then bumbled along haphazardly from there, resulting in the world we have today? Sorry, I don't buy it. The reason is as follows.

"Most people know about DNA (aka deoxyribonucleic acid) as the molecule that holds the information, i.e. the genetic codes, within our bodies. What some people don’t realise is that this equates to a seriously large amount of information being stored within a single biomolecule. DNA molecules can store up to 215 petabytes, or 215 million gigabytes, of data in a single doubled stranded molecule, making it one of the highest storage density mediums in the world. Simply put, the information storage devices within our bodies are much more capable than we can currently create, so there has been a lot of focus in trying to harness the power and data storage capabilities of DNA for our own man-made data storage systems." (Electro pages: storing information and data with DNA). ONE petabyte contains 500 billion pages of standard printed text. Multiply that by 215... I am not sure I can comprehend a number that large. That number is contained in a "database" if you can call it that, that exists on a submicroscopic level. Asking somebody to believe that that "just happened" is beyond ludicrous. The watch proves the existence of the watchmaker

That said, I'm not convinced that the fossil record is solid proof of anything. So few living things become fossils; conditions have to be just right for fossilization to happen. I recall hearing something recently that may be one in 100,000 animals or plants become fossils, and even with the ones that do become fossils, there is no guarantee that they will be found, or that they will not be destroyed in some natural event such as a flood, volcano, or whatever. To me, expecting the fossil record to be a reliable chronology of development is like depending on a calendar with maybe five numbers on it to be the reliable chronology of the number of days in a decade.

But we can use reasoning. We know, or think we know, two things. Fossils exist, and the earth changes. Oftentimes those changes in the earth are widespread and drastic. Assuming the existence of a creator God, we can also assume intelligence and foreknowledge on the part of that God. If God created the physical environment to change, as it does, then is it not reasonable to assume that God also provided the life he created to adapt according to the changes of the physical environment? Again, assuming the existence of that God, the answer cannot be no. The proof is that we are here.

I have never seen evolution versus creation as an either/or thing. In my mind they exist together working perfectly in tandem. They always have.
It is a bit thin to equate a living thing with a mechanical construction, if you insist that a "watch" proves a watchmaker who/what created the watchmaker?

[Speedie]

Amazing that people still believe in some god...a sky daddy..that controls everything.

You will get to meet him someday. I hope he understands your anti-posts

[Speedie]

You are incorrect, I believe. When a theory is "proven," it becomes a scientific LAW. Like the theory of gravity became the law of gravity. Same with physics and others.

It was PROVEN FACT at one time not too long ago that the world was flat. That scientific LAW did not hold water.
So why are we assuming that any current scientific LAW must be correct?

Because now people are so much smarter?? Not!!

[djplong]

It was PROVEN FACT at one time not too long ago that the world was flat. That scientific LAW did not hold water.
So why are we assuming that any current scientific LAW must be correct?

Because now people are so much smarter?? Not!!

Not too long ago? Ancient Greeks and Egyptians (those that were educated) knew the world wasn't flat. We've known this for thousands of years. *Science* never said the world was flat (certainly not since "The Scientific Method" was developed).

In the 5th Century BC, the concept of a spherical world shows up in Greek philosophy - Pythagoras proposed it around 500 BC. In the 3rd Century BC, Hellenistic astronomy established it as fact and even went so far as to calculate the Earth's circumference.

In June of 240 BC, Eratosthones calculated it to be about 250,000 stadia. Modern scholars disagree about the length of the stadium used by Eratosthenes. Values between 500 and about 600 feet have been suggested, putting Eratosthenes’ calculated circumference between about 24,000 miles and about 29,000 miles. The Earth is now known to measure about 24,900 miles around the equator, slightly less around the poles.

[Mrfriendly]

Don't be silly. There are thousands of examples of one species evolving into another one. We have fossils and we have DNA studies. In fact, we can trace mitochondrial DNA back to "LUCY", an ape that walked upright in Africa 3 million years ago, proving that we share a common ancestor. Not only that, 98% of human DNA is identical to chimpanzee DNA.

Just because you aren't aware of a thing does not mean that it does not exist.


I guess we that caught the Covid-19 virus are now part Bat?

[Windguy]

I see a common misunderstanding here. First off, Darwin didn’t propose that evolution exists. People could see the evidence of it and then he came up with an explanation (Natural Selection) of why it happens.

Evidence of evolution is all around. Viruses/bacteria mutate. Our abuse of antibiotics has resulted in super bugs because those bugs that have a slightly better resistance are the ones that survive and pass on their genes. The weak ones die and their line disappears. That’s natural selection. This is what we teach in schools.

People breed animals and plants to optimize them for their use. Does your pet “fur baby” look anything like a wolf? No, it has evolved through what people might consider unnatural selection (evolution directed by humans).

Darwin didn’t propose a theory of evolution but a theory of its cause. Evolution is a fact—not a theory.

[WiscoGirl]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

You mistake one big thing. Science isn't fact. Science is always theory until the theory is proven. When a particular scientific theory can be proven (over & over & over) it then becomes scientific law. For an example of scientific theory becoming scientific law seek Sir Isaac Newton's many scientific laws. His law of gravity can be proven mathematically. Science and math are intricately woven.

Science in order to become law must be proven. Science is in no way ever simply a fact.

P.S. no, we are not all that dumb, however the Fabian socialists would like us to be.

[Marine1974]

If the old covenant was flawless there wouldn’t be the need of the new covenant. Hebrews chapter 8 will explain it .

[Ptmckiou]

Meet Ardi…3.8 million years old. He is a couple million years older than the famous Lucy missing link. The theory is alive and well. Biological cells evolve with time, adapt to new environments, or die off. Same for humans who are made of evolving DNA and cells.

Ancient fossil found in Ethiopia reveals face of early human ancestor A. anamensis, species even older than "Lucy," from 3.8 million years ago - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ancient-fossil-reveals-face-of-early-human-ancestor-lucy/)

[WiscoGirl]

I think that is just semantics. Who has the authority to elevate a theory into a law?

PROOF! ... proof is all that's required to elevate a theory into law, and the person who proves it obtains this authority.

[JoelJohnson]

For thousands of years, people thought the Earth was the center of the universe.

When facts change I change my mind, what do you do?

[Joe C.]

Through all my years in school, I was never taught "Darwin's Theory". Only heard of it afterwards.

[Worldseries27]

meet ardi…3.8 million years old. He is a couple million years older than the famous lucy missing link. The theory is alive and well. Biological cells evolve with time, adapt to new environments, or die off. Same for humans who are made of evolving dna and cells.

ancient fossil found in ethiopia reveals face of early human ancestor a. Anamensis, species even older than "lucy," from 3.8 million years ago - cbs news (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ancient-fossil-reveals-face-of-early-human-ancestor-lucy/)
tell us about it

[ThirdOfFive]

You mistake one big thing. Science isn't fact. Science is always theory until the theory is proven. When a particular scientific theory can be proven (over & over & over) it then becomes scientific law. For an example of scientific theory becoming scientific law seek Sir Isaac Newton's many scientific laws. His law of gravity can be proven mathematically. Science and math are intricately woven.

Science in order to become law must be proven. Science is in no way ever simply a fact.

P.S. no, we are not all that dumb, however the Fabian socialists would like us to be.
Agreed. However I would take it one step further: no scientific "law", is ever immutable, no matter how set-in-stone the evidence points it out to be. A good example is in physics: the laws of mechanics and thermodynamics work precisely as they should--every time--EXCEPT when things are taken down to the quantum level, where such "laws" appear to be broken with impunity.

This is one reason (the primary reason, actually) that I question whenever a scientific "fact" becomes dogma; a belief so ingrained in the believers that they won't even admit to the faintest possibility that their belief might not be quite as rock-solid as they'd like to believe it is. Good science is ALWAYS ready (and should be willing) to revise whatever theory or "law" based on new evidence.

It is certainly that way with evolution. Things change as new facts (and fossils) come to light. We should be able to accept them, even though they might not support our own ideas or beliefs.

[WiscoGirl]

Agreed. However I would take it one step further: no scientific "law", is ever immutable, no matter how set-in-stone the evidence points it out to be. A good example is in physics: the laws of mechanics and thermodynamics work precisely as they should--every time--EXCEPT when things are taken down to the quantum level, where such "laws" appear to be broken with impunity.

This is one reason (the primary reason, actually) that I question whenever a scientific "fact" becomes dogma; a belief so ingrained in the believers that they won't even admit to the faintest possibility that their belief might not be quite as rock-solid as they'd like to believe it is. Good science is ALWAYS ready (and should be willing) to revise whatever theory or "law" based on new evidence.

It is certainly that way with evolution. Things change as new facts (and fossils) come to light. We should be able to accept them, even though they might not support our own ideas or beliefs.

Thank you for explaining this further. I agree with you 100%.

[Whitley]

I see a common misunderstanding here. First off, Darwin didn’t propose that evolution exists. People could see the evidence of it and then he came up with an explanation (Natural Selection) of why it happens.

Evidence of evolution is all around. Viruses/bacteria mutate. Our abuse of antibiotics has resulted in super bugs because those bugs that have a slightly better resistance are the ones that survive and pass on their genes. The weak ones die and their line disappears. That’s natural selection. This is what we teach in schools.

People breed animals and plants to optimize them for their use. Does your pet “fur baby” look anything like a wolf? No, it has evolved through what people might consider unnatural selection (evolution directed by humans).

Darwin didn’t propose a theory of evolution but a theory of its cause. Evolution is a fact—not a theory.

This is my pet puppy cuddles. If you squint I guess he may look a bit wolfish.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=gPJ8OvSX&id=C4757BE1F26624E83825BDE9BF8CF6A3EFE0BF1F&thid=OIP.gPJ8OvSXicCy3B3gwW7y1gHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwallup.net%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2016%2f01%2f94718-animals-wolf.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.80f 27c3af49789c0b2dc1de0c16ef2d6%3frik%3dH7%252fg76P2 jL%252fpvQ%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=768&expw=1024&q=wolf&simid=607998384062344307&FORM=IRPRST&ck=FEB4347AAFF1068031742BE85C81325A&selectedIndex=8&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0,

[Worldseries27]

thank you for explaining this further. I agree with you 100%.
60 %

[nhtexasrn]

Amazing that people still believe in some god...a sky daddy..that controls everything.
I heard it said once that there's never been an atheist in a fox hole. The day may come that you cry out to "sky daddy".

[Nordhagen]

Amazing that people still believe in some god...a sky daddy..that controls everything.

A fool says in his heart, there is no God.

[Worldseries27]

i heard it said once that there's never been an atheist in a fox hole. The day may come that you cry out to "sky daddy".
you know the old saying, give them enough rope

[ex34449]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven........ Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact.

No kidding. I think that's why they called it Darwin's Theory and not Darwin's Fact. Wow. Back away from the tree, there's a whole big beautiful forest around it. Too bad all you see is a little bark.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Don't be silly. There are thousands of examples of one species evolving into another one. We have fossils and we have DNA studies. In fact, we can trace mitochondrial DNA back to "LUCY", an ape that walked upright in Africa 3 million years ago, proving that we share a common ancestor. Not only that, 98% of human DNA is identical to chimpanzee DNA.

Just because you aren't aware of a thing does not mean that it does not exist.

You mean, speculating that we share a common ancestor.

The theory of evolution goes back to fish climbing out of the sea and eventually becoming human. Where is the proof that a fish became a mammal?

A two percent difference is all that is needed to be a different species.

[Worldseries27]

it is a bit thin to equate a living thing with a mechanical construction, if you insist that a "watch" proves a watchmaker who/what created the watchmaker?
the orbiting galaxies in the universe are the gears of the ultimate watch

[tophcfa]

Dam, and I thought Evolution was a golf cart made by EZGO? I agree with Pugmom, the Big Bang was a result of God lighting his f@ r+s on fire.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

Of course evolution is a thing. Just look at the difference between Pluto and Goofy.

[petiteone]

What I believe is that a being many times more "evolved" than us, so much as to appear "God-like" created a set of rules (scientific laws) to govern his creation and put us and it in motion to go on for many millennia.

GOD? Someone the ancients believed in to accept things they couldn't explain that modern science has since found evidence for or against. As an MD, I really thought that we had moved on from the GOD theory to actual Science.

[ThirdOfFive]

GOD? Someone the ancients believed in to accept things they couldn't explain that modern science has since found evidence for or against. As an MD, I really thought that we had moved on from the GOD theory to actual Science.

Hmmmmm.

Say that the poster was not an MD, but instead a mechanic: the guy who fixes complicated automobiles about which we rank-and-filers know little or nothing. Would that mechanic be justified in believing that the complicated machinery upon which he works "just happened", or would he have to admit that, at some point along the evolution of machinery, there had to be some sort of intelligent design?

[oneclickplus]

Amazing that people still believe in some god...a sky daddy..that controls everything.

On the contrary, I find it amazing that anyone doesn't believe in a Creator God. There is zero chance that the earth and everything on it with all its complexity and diversity is an accident.

People who believe in evolution from "nothing" do so without the education to understand what would be required for this to be true. You believe that a wrist watch is evidence of a watch maker. Yet the much more complex strand of DNA just came into existence without any design input? Nonsense.

One example: the flood of Noah described in the Bible is a much more plausible explanation for sedimentary rock and the fossil record than millions / billions of years of evolution.

A taste of another view of the evidence provided by fossils & rocks:

Nautiloid Fossils in the Grand Canyon
http://u.pc.cd/eKkctalK

An Overview of the Rocks and Fossils
http://u.pc.cd/KDU

Radioisotope Dating 1
http://u.pc.cd/7jl7

Radioisotope Dating 2
http://u.pc.cd/Kq7ctalK

Evidence for a Young Earth
http://u.pc.cd/aNj7

[Siegfried]

Mysticism and reason are antithetical.

[jimbomaybe]

On the contrary, I find it amazing that anyone doesn't believe in a Creator God. There is zero chance that the earth and everything on it with all its complexity and diversity is an accident.

People who believe in evolution from "nothing" do so without the education to understand what would be required for this to be true. You believe that a wrist watch is evidence of a watch maker. Yet the much more complex strand of DNA just came into existence without any design input? Nonsense.

One example: the flood of Noah described in the Bible is a much more plausible explanation for sedimentary rock and the fossil record than millions / billions of years of evolution.

A taste of another view of the evidence provided by fossils & rocks:

Nautiloid Fossils in the Grand Canyon
http://u.pc.cd/eKkctalK

An Overview of the Rocks and Fossils
http://u.pc.cd/KDU

Radioisotope Dating 1
http://u.pc.cd/7jl7

Radioisotope Dating 2
http://u.pc.cd/Kq7ctalK

Evidence for a Young Earth
http://u.pc.cd/aNj7
Given the number of possibilities, number of stars, etc. it would be at unlikely not to think that there is other life somewhere

[Blueblaze]

I guess we that caught the Covid-19 virus are now part Bat?

You always were. For instance, the genes that know how to process sugar into energy are in the mitochondrial DNA of all mammals.

[WiscoGirl]

Mysticism and reason are antithetical.

Thank God I am an American so my reason could differ from yours.

[Blueblaze]

You mean, speculating that we share a common ancestor.

The theory of evolution goes back to fish climbing out of the sea and eventually becoming human. Where is the proof that a fish became a mammal?

A two percent difference is all that is needed to be a different species.

It goes back much farther than fishes becoming mammals. It goes all the way back to stars becoming planets, and atoms becoming stars.

If the 98% DNA we share with chimpanzees isn't enough to prove that, if we didn't evolve from chimps, we at least had a common ancestor, than what's your explanation? Random chance? God "poofed" everything into existence simultaneously 6,000 years ago because you think your holy book says so? (It doesn't, by the way). Do you have any inkling of the number of atoms involved? Try to imagine the trillions upon trillions of coincidences that would be necessary for that to happen! And then try to explain why a significant portion of your DNA is also identical to that found in insects and jellyfish!

The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!

Why do people expect a book written for people living when Ramses II was alive to be scientifically accurate 3,000 years later? A holy book, even one dictated by God himself, doesn't have to be scientifically precise in order to be true. You've heard of parables, right? The creation story wasn't written to explain quantum mechanics. It was written to explain why people behave so badly. Even the story itself isn't contextually consistent on its face. Where did Cain and Able's wives come from? Not important to the story, so it's not included -- just like the details of how God created Man from dust -- star dust, over about 4 billion years.

[HJBeck]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

Nothing in the Bible has been proven, does that mean nothing in it can be true either? Guess we need to bring back the monkey trials!!!

[jimjamuser]

So is the choice between evolution and creation? Did things "just happen" and then bumbled along haphazardly from there, resulting in the world we have today? Sorry, I don't buy it. The reason is as follows.

"Most people know about DNA (aka deoxyribonucleic acid) as the molecule that holds the information, i.e. the genetic codes, within our bodies. What some people don’t realise is that this equates to a seriously large amount of information being stored within a single biomolecule. DNA molecules can store up to 215 petabytes, or 215 million gigabytes, of data in a single doubled stranded molecule, making it one of the highest storage density mediums in the world. Simply put, the information storage devices within our bodies are much more capable than we can currently create, so there has been a lot of focus in trying to harness the power and data storage capabilities of DNA for our own man-made data storage systems." (Electro pages: storing information and data with DNA). ONE petabyte contains 500 billion pages of standard printed text. Multiply that by 215... I am not sure I can comprehend a number that large. That number is contained in a "database" if you can call it that, that exists on a submicroscopic level. Asking somebody to believe that that "just happened" is beyond ludicrous. The watch proves the existence of the watchmaker

That said, I'm not convinced that the fossil record is solid proof of anything. So few living things become fossils; conditions have to be just right for fossilization to happen. I recall hearing something recently that may be one in 100,000 animals or plants become fossils, and even with the ones that do become fossils, there is no guarantee that they will be found, or that they will not be destroyed in some natural event such as a flood, volcano, or whatever. To me, expecting the fossil record to be a reliable chronology of development is like depending on a calendar with maybe five numbers on it to be the reliable chronology of the number of days in a decade.

But we can use reasoning. We know, or think we know, two things. Fossils exist, and the earth changes. Oftentimes those changes in the earth are widespread and drastic. Assuming the existence of a creator God, we can also assume intelligence and foreknowledge on the part of that God. If God created the physical environment to change, as it does, then is it not reasonable to assume that God also provided the life he created to adapt according to the changes of the physical environment? Again, assuming the existence of that God, the answer cannot be no. The proof is that we are here.

I have never seen evolution versus creation as an either/or thing. In my mind they exist together working perfectly in tandem. They always have.
I like your concluding statement and I don't specifically disagree with anything in that well-written and explained post I am just trying to see where THIS factor comes into play.........I believe that I have read a long time ago that the difference in DNA between MONKEY and MAN is extremely small - I am just wondering how that fits in?

[jimjamuser]

They probably teach evolution because they've found "missing links" for nearly every line -- from humans to horses, to sharks, to whales, to aardvarks and dinosaurs. It's a "theory" the same way gravity is just a "theory". The proof is so obvious and everywhere that that you need to invent a religion in order to ignore it.

What's really amazing, is the incredible string of coincidences that must occur in order to preserve a fossil. I'm astounded that we have even one fossil of Lucy -- our ape-man "missing link" ancestor known as Australopithecus. In fact, we have dozens of examples. It's yet another example of the ludicrous impossibility of our universe.

And it's yet more evidence that our universe was engineered by a bored deity, and not the result of rolling a seven umpteen trillion times.
i "theorize" that religion was NOT invented to disprove evolution. Rather it was invented by some individual
(or probably many individuals in many places and times) - who sought to establish himself (or herself) with a magical, yet not provable, special ability to predict events - and thus get and DESERVE some special benefits or treatments. These SPECIAL PEOPLE got to wear special animal furs, robes, clothes or jewelry designed to prove that they are SPECIAL.

Religion occurred way back in primitive man times - way before scientists theorized about evolution.

Also, I am confused by the post's concluding statements. Maybe they are sarcasm. But, they don't seem to agree with the earlier paragraphs?

[Berwin]

Even the Pope has said that evolution is a fact.

[jimjamuser]

I am amazed that a human being can watch a virus evolve from deadly to harmless in a mere three years, and still claim that there is no proof for the "theory" of evolution.

And I am amazed that a human being can understand that the same virus is comprised of the same chains of the same proteins found in a human cell nucleus, and yet, insist that we have no common ancestor with that virus -- because when Darwin first noticed evolution and described it in 1859, he didn't include all the answers to every question about evolution in his book.

And I am astounded that the same person will then point to his Holy Book, which was written 3,000 years before the discovery of DNA, and tell you that evolution cannot possibly be true because it is not mentioned in his 3,000-year-old Holy Book. He'll then go on to tell you that there has not been enough time for evolution to work because the Universe is only 6,000 years old. He knows this because he added up the ages of all the people mentioned in his Holy Book, and that's the number he got.

Simply astounding!
OK. That post did NOT confuse me and I agree with it.

[fdpaq0580]

Even the Pope has said that evolution is a fact.

WELL! If the Pope says so then it must be true. Right?

[jimjamuser]

They probably teach evolution because they've found "missing links" for nearly every line -- from humans to horses, to sharks, to whales, to aardvarks and dinosaurs. It's a "theory" the same way gravity is just a "theory". The proof is so obvious and everywhere that that you need to invent a religion in order to ignore it.

What's really amazing, is the incredible string of coincidences that must occur in order to preserve a fossil. I'm astounded that we have even one fossil of Lucy -- our ape-man "missing link" ancestor known as Australopithecus. In fact, we have dozens of examples. It's yet another example of the ludicrous impossibility of our universe.

And it's yet more evidence that our universe was engineered by a bored deity, and not the result of rolling a seven umpteen trillion times.
There is one animal species that scientists have no prior evolutionary links for. At least it was that way when I asked my Anthropology Professor about it 40 yeas ago (so things may have changed. The animal "dolphin" suddenly appeared some? number or thousand years ago. They suddenly appeared in the anthropological records for some unknown reason. I have never since seen a discussion or explanation about that. But, then again, I was never curious enough to look into the subject further.

[jimjamuser]

Why do we need a deep thinkers two?
To answer THAT question...........see post number 8.

[jimjamuser]

Taught in schools? "Science is fact not fictional theories." So much Science taught in schools is not fact but SPUN current thought. We all know the earth is flat and the planets revolve around the earth. Much of education is indoctrination. Few teachers are educated enough, bright enough or have the time to discuss these things.
Is that sarcasm? Help me Sheldon.

[ElDiabloJoe]

I feel like I walked into a mensa meeting.

I am a member but I have NEVER attended a meeting. Sometimes people are so bright they can be rather reclusive, anti-social, and/or lack people skills. The small talk and discussions in their magazine was enough to tell me not to go to a meeting.

[jimjamuser]

Yes, viruses can evolve. And species can evolve but there has never been any absolute proof of one species evolving into another.
I know that it can happen in the reverse direction. The Alaskan Brown Bear was considered for years as a different species than the Grizzle Bear. But, something proved that they were REALLY the same specie. Either DNA proved that or scientists just decided to AGREE to that, I am not sure. I would NOT be surprised if humans started out as a virus, and then became some kind of tadpole, then a fish. then a fish that walked on land, ETC, ETC until BINGO a human. And then these humans invented language, and then invented religion, and then started classifying things, and then, of course, started arguments.

[jimjamuser]

I think that is just semantics. Who has the authority to elevate a theory into a law?
Sky Daddy.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Hmmmmm.

Say that the poster was not an MD, but instead a mechanic: the guy who fixes complicated automobiles about which we rank-and-filers know little or nothing. Would that mechanic be justified in believing that the complicated machinery upon which he works "just happened", or would he have to admit that, at some point along the evolution of machinery, there had to be some sort of intelligent design?

Everyone knows that automobiles evolved from go-karts which evolved from legos. Geez. Of course the doctor is right, aren't they always? Just ask them. I cannot tell you the number of moronic MD's and JDs I have met or dealt with in my life - as if the letters after their name entitle them to certain status of "knowing all." They do not. I don't walk around adding B.S./M.S. after my name. In fact, I rarely admit to possessing the documents.

[jimjamuser]

I feel like I walked into a mensa meeting.
Yes, and we are deadly serious - no one is "mensa"-ing around here!

[jimjamuser]

Like politics, Religion should also be banned on this board.

Nothing productive comes from it
They are very similar and becoming more so!

[jimjamuser]

I guess we that caught the Covid-19 virus are now part Bat?
Possibly........try to do a sonar ping. Or sprinkle some flying insects on your salads.

[jimjamuser]

I see a common misunderstanding here. First off, Darwin didn’t propose that evolution exists. People could see the evidence of it and then he came up with an explanation (Natural Selection) of why it happens.

Evidence of evolution is all around. Viruses/bacteria mutate. Our abuse of antibiotics has resulted in super bugs because those bugs that have a slightly better resistance are the ones that survive and pass on their genes. The weak ones die and their line disappears. That’s natural selection. This is what we teach in schools.

People breed animals and plants to optimize them for their use. Does your pet “fur baby” look anything like a wolf? No, it has evolved through what people might consider unnatural selection (evolution directed by humans).

Darwin didn’t propose a theory of evolution but a theory of its cause. Evolution is a fact—not a theory.
I believe that birds are really dinosaurs. That sort of twists the concept of what a species is.

[Worldseries27]

i believe that birds are really dinosaurs. That sort of twists the concept of what a species is.
the head bobbing has been cited

[jimjamuser]

Thank you for explaining this further. I agree with you 100%.
Scientists are like explorers that are ALWAYS searching for the NEXT thing, never finding. As a theory moves to acceptance and a "law' - the scientist has found new theories to explore. Each new discovery suggests new theories to work on.

[Worldseries27]

well! If the pope says so then it must be true. Right?
fascinating story for those who wish to do some research
ps. St augustine did not take genesis literally.

[jimjamuser]

I heard it said once that there's never been an atheist in a fox hole. The day may come that you cry out to "sky daddy".
Personally, I would like it better if they cried out, "No more wars!"

[Worldseries27]

fascinating story for those who wish to do some research
ps. St augustine did not take genesis literally.
ditto

[Worldseries27]

scientists are like explorers that are always searching for the next thing, never finding. As a theory moves to acceptance and a "law' - the scientist has found new theories to explore. Each new discovery suggests new theories to work on.
correct. The expansion of the universe was faster than the speed of light so the research going on is to get closer to the bb because the physics there are not the physics of today

[jimjamuser]

Dam, and I thought Evolution was a golf cart made by EZGO? I agree with Pugmom, the Big Bang was a result of God lighting his f@ r+s on fire.
And just like that the conversation fell back down a dark hole, screaming in disbelief.

[jimjamuser]

GOD? Someone the ancients believed in to accept things they couldn't explain that modern science has since found evidence for or against. As an MD, I really thought that we had moved on from the GOD theory to actual Science.
The movie "Prometheus" expanded on questions like we are discussing. Also "Raised by Wolves", which is on Prime and also directed by Ridley Scott.

[jimjamuser]

Hmmmmm.

Say that the poster was not an MD, but instead a mechanic: the guy who fixes complicated automobiles about which we rank-and-filers know little or nothing. Would that mechanic be justified in believing that the complicated machinery upon which he works "just happened", or would he have to admit that, at some point along the evolution of machinery, there had to be some sort of intelligent design?
As far as mechanical devices go - chimpanzees are known to use tools.........so, are they evolving or using intelligent design. Are they just a few evolutionary rungs behind humans?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It goes back much farther than fishes becoming mammals. It goes all the way back to stars becoming planets, and atoms becoming stars.

If the 98% DNA we share with chimpanzees isn't enough to prove that, if we didn't evolve from chimps, we at least had a common ancestor, than what's your explanation? Random chance? God "poofed" everything into existence simultaneously 6,000 years ago because you think your holy book says so? (It doesn't, by the way). Do you have any inkling of the number of atoms involved? Try to imagine the trillions upon trillions of coincidences that would be necessary for that to happen! And then try to explain why a significant portion of your DNA is also identical to that found in insects and jellyfish!

The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!

Why do people expect a book written for people living when Ramses II was alive to be scientifically accurate 3,000 years later? A holy book, even one dictated by God himself, doesn't have to be scientifically precise in order to be true. You've heard of parables, right? The creation story wasn't written to explain quantum mechanics. It was written to explain why people behave so badly. Even the story itself isn't contextually consistent on its face. Where did Cain and Able's wives come from? Not important to the story, so it's not included -- just like the details of how God created Man from dust -- star dust, over about 4 billion years.

You obviously have me confused with someone else.

[jimjamuser]

I am a member but I have NEVER attended a meeting. Sometimes people are so bright they can be rather reclusive, anti-social, and/or lack people skills. The small talk and discussions in their magazine was enough to tell me not to go to a meeting.
There is a bit of IRONY there. Someone that is reclusive would NOT go to meetings - the NON- reclusive ones would attend.

[jimjamuser]

the head bobbing has been cited
Mue Bueno

[Janet1946]

Excellent post. Thank you.

[jimbomaybe]

It goes back much farther than fishes becoming mammals. It goes all the way back to stars becoming planets, and atoms becoming stars.

If the 98% DNA we share with chimpanzees isn't enough to prove that, if we didn't evolve from chimps, we at least had a common ancestor, than what's your explanation? Random chance? God "poofed" everything into existence simultaneously 6,000 years ago because you think your holy book says so? (It doesn't, by the way). Do you have any inkling of the number of atoms involved? Try to imagine the trillions upon trillions of coincidences that would be necessary for that to happen! And then try to explain why a significant portion of your DNA is also identical to that found in insects and jellyfish!

The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!

Why do people expect a book written for people living when Ramses II was alive to be scientifically accurate 3,000 years later? A holy book, even one dictated by God himself, doesn't have to be scientifically precise in order to be true. You've heard of parables, right? The creation story wasn't written to explain quantum mechanics. It was written to explain why people behave so badly. Even the story itself isn't contextually consistent on its face. Where did Cain and Able's wives come from? Not important to the story, so it's not included -- just like the details of how God created Man from dust -- star dust, over about 4 billion years.
"The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!"
Evolution is its own plan, what works survives a little bit better for any number of reasons, the ultimate pragmaticism, no prejudices, if there is a guiding force directing why doodle bug around for hundreds of thousands of years?

[Retiredsteve]

Taught in schools? "Science is fact not fictional theories." So much Science taught in schools is not fact but SPUN current thought. We all know the earth is flat and the planets revolve around the earth. Much of education is indoctrination. Few teachers are educated enough, bright enough or have the time to discuss these things. You flat Earthers have followers all around the world

[fdpaq0580]

"The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!"
Evolution is its own plan, what works survives a little bit better for any number of reasons, the ultimate pragmaticism, no prejudices, if there is a guiding force directing why doodle bug around for hundreds of thousands of years?

Assuming that God does exist and is the ultimate engineer and is perfection personified and has set up the perfect plan, then it is implied that He/She/It/They (father, son, holy ghost) are infallible. If the plan is infallible then there is zero error and all things are going exactly according to plan. Creatures live and die, galaxies collide, all according to the perfect plan. Then, you or I in a moment of desperation or distress cry out to God to grant our prayer. The unmitigated gall! To dare to ask God, the creator, to change His perfect plan for the universe because we are upset. Even if you get what you want, it is only because it was destined to happen anyway. And, you or I were destined/required as part of the plan to make the request.
Imagine God's perfect plan as a billiard shot that started with the big bang. We, like particles on the billiard balls are just along for the ride. We may imagine free will, but it is only illusion. Like actors on the great stage of life, we go through the motions without a choice of what we will do next. We can't recognize it as we are immersed in and lost in our rolls. God created the plan and our fates, along with the fate of the universe has already been dictated. Those who believe, have no choice but to believe. Likewise, those who don't believe, have no choice but to not believe.

[Worldseries27]

what i believe is that a being many times more "evolved" than us, so much as to appear "god-like" created a set of rules (scientific laws) to govern his creation and put us and it in motion to go on for many millennia.
this being would have to be older than the universe, outside of the universe,and who created him?

[MrLonzo]

Amazing how much dogs have evolved just in my lifetime. In the 1950s, a bunch of mutts roamed the streets. Some of the breeds today are almost like a different species! Think of what can happen in 500 million years...

[jimbomaybe]

this being would have to be older than the universe, outside of the universe, and who created him?
Exactly,, I posted the same question to the "the watch must have a watch maker" believers and have gotten no answer, perhaps because there is none, perhaps at some point we will see a strained convoluted explanation ??

[dhdallas]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

The earth is flat too.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Faith is not fact either so it should not be taught either.

[SHIBUMI]

Faith is not taught in schools...........

[Ptmckiou]

Exactly,, I posted the same question to the "the watch must have a watch maker" believers and have gotten no answer, perhaps because there is none, perhaps at some point we will see a strained convoluted explanation ??

Okay, I’ll take a stab at this. Hang on to your britches…

Who created the watchmaker?

The laws of physics state, energy can’t be created or destroyed, but only ch age molecular form. So, if God is “intelligent energy” then God has always been, and will always be. That it further. Get out of 3D where energy creates all matter (everything being an aspect of “God”). Outside of 3D you lose the aspect of “time”. Time doesn’t exist, because to “measure” time you must have a “here” and a “there” for measurement. When you are outside of 3D there is only one eternal moment …the “now”. View time on a vertical staff, with an infinite amount of levels to it. In reality, you move through time, time does not move. Everything is happening within that one eternal moment, always changing, always evolving. Thereby, through the laws of physics you can explain the “watchmaker “ having always been, and will always be because time is an illusion. God (Source ) is the universal consciousness (eternal intelligent energy) of which everything comes from, because everything in 3D is made of matter, and matter is made from energy….aka Source of All…or also known as God.

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Like politics, Religion should also be banned on this board.

Nothing productive comes from it

But when expressing ideas and opinions is banned, the only result is destructive. Truth often is not black and white -- it evolves.

[kendi]

[QUOTE=Rich Iwaszko;2126616]hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we continue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.[/QUOTE

Science is an ongoing process of discovery. We never know all the facts.

[Chee-Chee]

No. Theories do not prove or disprove anything. They provide a framework for understanding our experience and for predicting future experiences. The Big Bang theory posits certain aspects of the early evolution of the observable universe. It does not stipulate how this early stage began, or what may have caused or preceded it. Its correctness or incorrectness has nothing to do with God.

The validity or non-validity of God is not amenable to treatment through theories of physics, because it is inherently a metaphysical question. If the notion of God is valid, and in particular, if God is the Cause of “everything,” then God lies entirely outside of “everything.”

There are many aspects of religious belief that are amenable to scientific study. The ideas, for example, that the earth was literally created in a few days, or that Adam “appeared” alone and that Eve was created out of a rib from Adam, are all clearly invalidated by geological and related studies. They can be read as allegories, but they cannot be read as science. Likewise, the ideas that God has a physical form, or that human bodies can rise into the sky and reappear later on, are clearly contrary to both scientific truth and common sense. Insistence on a literal interpretation of Scripture is a great handicap to any attempt to reconcile religion with science.

However, science, in the sense of the physical (or material) sciences, has not shown the ability to deal with the entirety of human life. In the late 1800s, it was thought that science had entirely resolved the questions of physical existence, and that soon, all human problems would likewise be solved through the application of laws of physics and chemistry. It was also hoped that all of mathematics could be reduced to formulaic solutions. All of these suppositions have proven false. The discoveries made through application of the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics demonstrated that physical existence is far more complicated than previously imagined. The work of Godel showed that mathematics cannot be reduced to formalisms. The experience of the 20th and early 21st centuries has shown that science alone cannot create a satisfactory world. Wars have persisted, or been replaced by terrorism and crime. The attempts to use chemical and electrical means to solve psychological problems have not succeeded in improving our overall mental health. Our environment is heading for disaster, and the plight of the poor has not improved; indeed, the disparity between rich and poor has increased.

Strange as it may seem to the modern, scientifically educated person, religion has, throughout recorded history, been the source of the advancement of civilization. At present, we do not see that; instead, religion often seems to be a means of retarding progress. However, if we take a longer view, we see that human history has a progressive cyclical pattern. Every thousand years, more or less, a “dark age” occurs, followed after some time by an age of progress and a time of peace and stability. This stage degenerates again into darkness. If we look in more detail, we see that religion also follows this pattern, and that, in fact, the religious developments precede the sociological developments. This leads to a reasonable conjecture that religion, like science, is actually a driving force in the development of civilization. Science drives our material progress, and religion drives our societal progress. This, in turn, leads to the conjecture that the concept of God is a valid construct, and that the teachings of God, known as religion, are, like science, a means of advancement of the human world.

In short, the Big Bang theory is a fruitful theory for cosmology and our understanding of the physical relationship of our tiny planet to the immensity of the observable universe. It also gives us room to imagine other, disconnected observable universes. It does not, however, help us to decipher the fundamental riddles of existence: Is there a “Why” to it all? Is there a “reason” for existence? Is there something beyond the physical universe? These are all questions that must be addressed through other means than the study of physics and mathematics.

Here is one religious explanation of the source of existence, written in the late 1800s, that in no way conflicts with any findings of modern science

[fdpaq0580]

I, for one, am enjoying the various thoughts, ideas, points of view expressed in the "deep thinker" threads. Keep 're coming.

[jimjamuser]

Faith is not fact either so it should not be taught either.
That IS a good and thoughtful point.

[jimbomaybe]

Okay, I’ll take a stab at this. Hang on to your britches…

Who created the watchmaker?

The laws of physics state, energy can’t be created or destroyed, but only ch age molecular form. So, if God is “intelligent energy” then God has always been, and will always be. That it further. Get out of 3D where energy creates all matter (everything being an aspect of “God”). Outside of 3D you lose the aspect of “time”. Time doesn’t exist, because to “measure” time you must have a “here” and a “there” for measurement. When you are outside of 3D there is only one eternal moment …the “now”. View time on a vertical staff, with an infinite amount of levels to it. In reality, you move through time, time does not move. Everything is happening within that one eternal moment, always changing, always evolving. Thereby, through the laws of physics you can explain the “watchmaker “ having always been, and will always be because time is an illusion. God (Source ) is the universal consciousness (eternal intelligent energy) of which everything comes from, because everything in 3D is made of matter, and matter is made from energy….aka Source of All…or also known as God.

pretty much the explanation I expected

[ThirdOfFive]

They are very similar and becoming more so!
Now THAT is a great point.

[ThirdOfFive]

As far as mechanical devices go - chimpanzees are known to use tools.........so, are they evolving or using intelligent design. Are they just a few evolutionary rungs behind humans?
I thought the point was that life is the PRODUCT of intelligent design, not that life necessarily uses it.

But, in any case, I sometimes wonder what chimpanzees think of us. Human arrogance is a wonderful thing: it assumes that animal life must in some way be "behind" us in development. It is that whole "Amazon tribe" thinking: their particular tribe is the apex of human development and everything else--man or critter--is inferior to us; that we inhabit the exalted top rung. It seems as if the less we know, the more we think we know.

It is certainly that way when we try to define our "species" in relation to others. My own thought is that the more we allow ourselves to see, the more similarities we will recognize. A couple of examples from my own experience: some years back, my wife and I were camped in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness of northern Minnesota. We were camped on a narrows may be 80 to 100 yards wide, with the lake widening both before and after the narrows. One morning just after dawn we heard a ruckus in the woods across the narrows. A deer suddenly appeared at the source of the noise, looked around, saw my wife and I, jumped in the water and swam right towards us. Getting out of the water it went to the center of our camp and just stood there, almost within arms reach. Just after the deer got there we heard another noise in the same spot where the deer had appeared. A huge timberwolf ran out obviously on the trail of the deer, looked around, and saw us and the deer. Not wanting to deal with Mr. Wolf on our side of the lake, I grabbed the canoe paddle and started beating on the canoe with a paddle while jumping up and down and yelling loudly. The wolf just looked at me for a few seconds before turning around and walking back into the woods. His body language said it all. There was no fear in him, we just weren't worth bothering about.

As soon as the wolf disappeared, the deer melted into the woods as well.

Another example: I once had a cat that had the habit of raiding the garbage. I bought one of those childproof door latches and installed it on the door under the sink where the garbage was stored. I installed it, while the cat laid on the floor and watched me. I didn't think much of it at the time. The next morning I got up to garbage strewn all over the kitchen. Assuming I had left the door open I put the garbage back and made sure to close the door. I got up early the next morning--and caught the cat in the act: he was lying on his back with his paws stretched up under the door trying to trip the latch, which he succeeded in doing. He quickly pulled his paw out when he saw I was watching him.

Both these examples, to me anyway, show animals having complicated and advanced thought processes, having the ability to evaluate risks, make subjective judgments, planning ahead. The deer in the first example made a conscious choice between the lesser of two evils. People hunt deer up there and deer fear men, but that deer sought protection from us, knowing that the wolf would probably not approach us. We were still dangerous, just not quite as dangerous as the wolf. In the second example, the cat knew how to trip the latch just by watching me install it, and also knew without any evidence that I'd not approve if he tried to open it. Thought processes in each example are far more "human" than many of would like to admit.

There are more similarities than differences in life. Humans and chimps may share 98% of their DNA, but I recall reading that humans and microbes share something like 60%. That is well over half. We're far more similar in appearance to chimpanzees than to, say, a paramecium, but the functioning of all life, at least as we know it, seems to be identical on the molecular and sub- molecular level. The design of all life is contained in the DNA of that life, and how DNA works seems to be identical no matter what life we are talking about. Sure, the product of that DNA can vary tremendously in appearance and functionality from species to species, order to order, genus to genus, even phylum to phylum; but human life is related to all life, one way or another. Chimps and humans may not be brothers, but for sure second cousins is not out of the question. The watchmaker had a good blueprint for all the watches that have inhabited this planet.

It is LIFE that is special. What makes humanity special, if indeed we are special at all, is not in our biology.

[Blueblaze]

"The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!"
Evolution is its own plan, what works survives a little bit better for any number of reasons, the ultimate pragmaticism, no prejudices, if there is a guiding force directing why doodle bug around for hundreds of thousands of years?

Why doodle around for thousands of years? You're still thinking of God as some grandpa in the sky. God IS the "creation". The creation is His thoughts. And just as you have evolved over your lifetime, God has EVOLVED over the billions of years of His eternal life. You could just as easily ask why YOU "doodled around" for six or seven decades.

The one thing you can't escape is that this universe is too complex to have just grown by accident. How does an accidental Big Bang happen, before causation or time itself even exists?

[Blueblaze]

Assuming that God does exist and is the ultimate engineer and is perfection personified and has set up the perfect plan, then it is implied that He/She/It/They (father, son, holy ghost) are infallible. If the plan is infallible then there is zero error and all things are going exactly according to plan. Creatures live and die, galaxies collide, all according to the perfect plan. Then, you or I in a moment of desperation or distress cry out to God to grant our prayer. The unmitigated gall! To dare to ask God, the creator, to change His perfect plan for the universe because we are upset. Even if you get what you want, it is only because it was destined to happen anyway. And, you or I were destined/required as part of the plan to make the request.
Imagine God's perfect plan as a billiard shot that started with the big bang. We, like particles on the billiard balls are just along for the ride. We may imagine free will, but it is only illusion. Like actors on the great stage of life, we go through the motions without a choice of what we will do next. We can't recognize it as we are immersed in and lost in our rolls. God created the plan and our fates, along with the fate of the universe has already been dictated. Those who believe, have no choice but to believe. Likewise, those who don't believe, have no choice but to not believe.

You missed the only theory that covers all the facts. It's not a "perfect plan", it's an conscious universe. And you, being a spec of God's consciousness, have a spec of His free will. Yes, it was engineered, but not all at once, any more than the Wright Brother's invention was the Boeing 747.

[fdpaq0580]

Why doodle around for thousands of years? You're still thinking of God as some grandpa in the sky. God IS the "creation". The creation is His thoughts. And just as you have evolved over your lifetime, God has EVOLVED over the billions of years of His eternal life. You could just as easily ask why YOU "doodled around" for six or seven decades.

The one thing you can't escape is that this universe is too complex to have just grown by accident. How does an accidental Big Bang happen, before causation or time itself even exists?

Hmm? God has evolved? Evolution is a response to outside influence, like growth of hair to deal with colder environment or more melanin to protect from sunlight. For God to need to evolve seems to imply he/she/It/they are somehow lacking or imperfect.
As for the universe, how can you be so sure this isn't one of a multitude of various universes and proto-universes. Also, the universe's perceived complexity could just the current view or state of the "dust beginning to settle" some 15 billion years after the total random dispersion of the big bang. No one knows for certain. And if God is evolving, that would imply that even he had no idea what the big bang would become when he "lit the fuse", or has no idea where it will end up. Therefore, it wasn't planned?
All we can figure is that believers will view all evidence through through the eyes of a believer, and unbelievers will interpret the evidence from their own perspective.
Interesting philosophical discourse continues.

[Worldseries27]

Many theories, explanations, no proofs either way. Throughout the ages we usually go down the wrong roads before self correcting. Einstein got it wrong.
He's human.
So are we

[blueash]

There is one animal species that scientists have no prior evolutionary links for. At least it was that way when I asked my Anthropology Professor about it 40 yeas ago (so things may have changed. The animal "dolphin" suddenly appeared some? number or thousand years ago. They suddenly appeared in the anthropological records for some unknown reason. I have never since seen a discussion or explanation about that. But, then again, I was never curious enough to look into the subject further.

Anthropology has absolutely nothing to say about dolphin evolution. It is the study of human society, what make us human. Dolphins did not suddenly appear except that obviously there was a time before dolphins [when a now extinct precursor species lived] and a time after their speciation. The first "dolphins" appear in the fossil record over ten million years ago.

Google provides a myriad of available resources to learn about how land based mammals with hands and feet with five digits returned to the ocean as warm blooded sea inhabitants. The skeletal architecture of dolphins still has the same general bones as we do in our arms and hands... common ancestors, proof of evolution from an earlier progenitor.

[Blueblaze]

Hmm? God has evolved? Evolution is a response to outside influence, like growth of hair to deal with colder environment or more melanin to protect from sunlight. For God to need to evolve seems to imply he/she/It/they are somehow lacking or imperfect.
As for the universe, how can you be so sure this isn't one of a multitude of various universes and proto-universes. Also, the universe's perceived complexity could just the current view or state of the "dust beginning to settle" some 15 billion years after the total random dispersion of the big bang. No one knows for certain. And if God is evolving, that would imply that even he had no idea what the big bang would become when he "lit the fuse", or has no idea where it will end up. Therefore, it wasn't planned?
All we can figure is that believers will view all evidence through through the eyes of a believer, and unbelievers will interpret the evidence from their own perspective.
Interesting philosophical discourse continues.

In order for a particle to exist, it must be observed. Basic Quantum Mechanics. Your "multiple universes" are merely mathematical possibilities where there was no observer to "collapse the function".

As for the evolution of God, just read your Bible. You'll discover, we've had a "New Covenant" for 2022 years, now. And yet, God was perfect 3,000 years ago, when he used to demand animal sacrifices, just as He's still perfect after he sacrificed himself so we could stop all that messy killing. God is the DEFINITION of perfect. So regardless of what state He might have been in, 4 billion years before he dreamed you up, He was perfect.

[jimbomaybe]

Why doodle around for thousands of years? You're still thinking of God as some grandpa in the sky. God IS the "creation". The creation is His thoughts. And just as you have evolved over your lifetime, God has EVOLVED over the billions of years of His eternal life. You could just as easily ask why YOU "doodled around" for six or seven decades.

The one thing you can't escape is that this universe is too complex to have just grown by accident. How does an accidental Big Bang happen, before causation or time itself even exists?
If you subscribe to an omnipotent god why would there be a need for a change or modification of "plan" , I being mortal make mistakes and hopefully learn from my missteps a supreme being would not have that handicap

[fdpaq0580]

In order for a particle to exist, it must be observed. Basic Quantum Mechanics. Your "multiple universes" are merely mathematical possibilities where there was no observer to "collapse the function".

As for the evolution of God, just read your Bible. You'll discover, we've had a "New Covenant" for 2022 years, now. And yet, God was perfect 3,000 years ago, when he used to demand animal sacrifices, just as He's still perfect after he sacrificed himself so we could stop all that messy killing. God is the DEFINITION of perfect. So regardless of what state He might have been in, 4 billion years before he dreamed you up, He was perfect.

First paragraph: I am familiar with the principle. It seems to me same concept as "if a tree falls in the forrest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound". Greater minds than mine will have to do the math. As to the multi-verses, wouldn't God be an observer? Since God is everywhere the only way he wouldn't observe it would mean he doesn't exist.
Second paragraph: Evolution is an adaptation/mutation passed on to the next generation. If one changes their diet, exercise they may improve their health and fitness, but that is not evolution, it is just change of a single entity. Evolution, over time will allow one species to become a different species.
"Read you Bible". I have. A book with many tales, many of which are retelling of earlier tales from other cultures. There are many contradictions, and lots of missing parts inaccuracies and ambiguities. What about other religious texts as evidence? Do you totally dismiss them? And sacrificing himself to stop the messy killing of animals? How about all the messy killing of one another?

[skarra]

Science is based upon theories supported by observations some of which eventually become facts. Eg movement of the planets around the Sun - we have proof of that.

Religion is based upon faith and has no facts or proofs.

Science is flexible and willing to adjust over time as new observations are made - this is its strength. Religion is rigid and dislikes it when science points out it’s errors. Eg earth being the center of the universe, or evolution. Part of that rigidity comes about because of an unwillingness to admit that some of what MEN wrote in scriptures was just plain wrong.

I believe in spirituality and that there is some intersection with science and if you look hard and deep enough they do complement each other. I do not believe in religion as practiced by a group of men looking to control the behavior of the masses (and give themselves power and wealth in the process).

The root of all evil in this world is religion IMO. Without it we would be far better off as we had morals long before religion was devised and all religion has given us is centuries of wars.

[LuvNH]

I am amazed that any intelligent human truly believes in a supreme being who is waiting with open arms to welcome us into heaven.

If one looks at all the atrocities done in the name of religion it is truly horrific. You don't have to look back to burning people at the stake, just look around at the modern world within the last ten years and tell me there is a kind and loving God. We are unable to live and let live, but if that's what gets you through the night then so be it.

[Blueblaze]

If you subscribe to an omnipotent god why would there be a need for a change or modification of "plan" , I being mortal make mistakes and hopefully learn from my missteps a supreme being would not have that handicap

"Omnipotent" doesn't exclude change. The word merely means 'all-powerful and everywhere". To me, that simply describes a conscious universe. You're the one who created a straw man god who never needs to change, and then pointed to change as your reason He can't exist.

Even Christians have to admit that God changes his mind. He changed his mind about destroying the world after Noah and the flood. He changed his mind again about demanding animal sacrifices after Jesus. He hasn't ordered the Jews to kill every last man, woman, child, and goat in a country and claim it for their own in thousands of years.

I think that God's universe demonstrates that God's thinking has evolved, "omnipotent" or not. The one thing I can't understand is how anyone can deny the existence of God. It's the only theory that covers all the facts.

[Blueblaze]

First paragraph: I am familiar with the principle. It seems to me same concept as "if a tree falls in the forrest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound". Greater minds than mine will have to do the math. As to the multi-verses, wouldn't God be an observer? Since God is everywhere the only way he wouldn't observe it would mean he doesn't exist.
Second paragraph: Evolution is an adaptation/mutation passed on to the next generation. If one changes their diet, exercise they may improve their health and fitness, but that is not evolution, it is just change of a single entity. Evolution, over time will allow one species to become a different species.
"Read you Bible". I have. A book with many tales, many of which are retelling of earlier tales from other cultures. There are many contradictions, and lots of missing parts inaccuracies and ambiguities. What about other religious texts as evidence? Do you totally dismiss them? And sacrificing himself to stop the messy killing of animals? How about all the messy killing of one another?

Well, in the case of Quantum Mechanics, if you don't get the math, I guess you'll just have to take it from me. If a particle isn't observed, it doesn't exist. "Multiple Universes" is just a sci-fi idea that grew out of popular misunderstanding of the math.

I don't get your second comment about evolution. What does exercise have to do with evolution? I never said I disagreed that evolution changes species from one to another.

The reason I mentioned the Bible wasn't to hold it up as authority. I don't care if you believe it or not. I mentioned it because YOU claimed that an omnipotent God can't change. The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea.

I'm not sure if any human religion has all the answers -- I doubt it. But I will say that the religion of Western Civilization produced the best results of any I know of, since we were the first to grant liberty to ordinary people, and the first to harness enlightened self-interest in the form of capitalism, to raise the human condition out of abject poverty and misery. So if I had to guess, I would guess the Christians must be closer to the truth than most.

[manaboutown]

Well, in the case of Quantum Mechanics, if you don't get the math, I guess you'll just have to take it from me. If a particle isn't observed, it doesn't exist. "Multiple Universes" is just a sci-fi idea that grew out of popular misunderstanding of the math.

I don't get your second comment about evolution. What does exercise have to do with evolution? I never said I disagreed that evolution changes species from one to another.

The reason I mentioned the Bible wasn't to hold it up as authority. I don't care if you believe it or not. I mentioned it because YOU claimed that an omnipotent God can't change. The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea.

I'm not sure if any human religion has all the answers -- I doubt it. But I will say that the religion of Western Civilization produced the best results of any I know of, since we were the first to grant liberty to ordinary people, and the first to harness enlightened self-interest in the form of capitalism, to raise the human condition out of abject poverty and misery. So if I had to guess, I would guess the Christians must be closer to the truth than most.

Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment)

[Davonu]

Well, in the case of Quantum Mechanics, if you don't get the math, I guess you'll just have to take it from me. If a particle isn't observed, it doesn't exist…
Ooohh. Slightly condescending response considering that Quantum Mechanics is accepted in general by most of the scientific community, but many of the specifics are hotly debated by those same scientists…including the “if a particle isn’t observed, it doesn’t exist” part. It is far from proven.

[manaboutown]

Ooohh. Slightly condescending response considering that Quantum Mechanics is accepted in general by most of the scientific community, but many of the specifics are hotly debated by those same scientists…including the “if a particle isn’t observed, it doesn’t exist” part. It is far from proven.

What about all the particles generated by the Big Bang and comprising the early universe before any life existed to observe them?

[Davonu]

What about all the particles generated by the Big Bang and comprising the early universe before any life existed to observe them?
Heheh. Good question manaboutown.

One of the most interesting things to me about cosmology is how the experts disagree on so much, even things that some of those scientists consider as proven. So little in the supremely unimaginable science behind our existence is accepted by all 'experts' as proven.

Even some long-accepted concepts come under question at times. The James Webb telescope has brought that to new heights. Could the Big Bang actually be questioned using modern science?? Here is a very interesting article...

The Big Bang didn't happen | Eric Lerner >> IAI TV (https://iai.tv/articles/the-big-bang-didnt-happen-auid-2215?_auid=2020)

[ThirdOfFive]

Well, in the case of Quantum Mechanics, if you don't get the math, I guess you'll just have to take it from me. If a particle isn't observed, it doesn't exist. "Multiple Universes" is just a sci-fi idea that grew out of popular misunderstanding of the math.

I don't get your second comment about evolution. What does exercise have to do with evolution? I never said I disagreed that evolution changes species from one to another.

The reason I mentioned the Bible wasn't to hold it up as authority. I don't care if you believe it or not. I mentioned it because YOU claimed that an omnipotent God can't change. The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea.

I'm not sure if any human religion has all the answers -- I doubt it. But I will say that the religion of Western Civilization produced the best results of any I know of, since we were the first to grant liberty to ordinary people, and the first to harness enlightened self-interest in the form of capitalism, to raise the human condition out of abject poverty and misery. So if I had to guess, I would guess the Christians must be closer to the truth than most.
Odd, the direction that this discussion has taken. It started as a discussion of creation/intelligent design as opposed to evolution), which then somehow devolved into bringing a guy with a long beard and white robes holding court somewhere beyond the clouds, his assumed capabilities, motivation, etc.

Why does "intelligent design" have to include a God-person involved in in it?

[fdpaq0580]

Well, in the case of Quantum Mechanics, if you don't get the math, I guess you'll just have to take it from me. If a particle isn't observed, it doesn't exist. "Multiple Universes" is just a sci-fi idea that grew out of popular misunderstanding of the math.

I don't get your second comment about evolution. What does exercise have to do with evolution? I never said I disagreed that evolution changes species from one to another.

The reason I mentioned the Bible wasn't to hold it up as authority. I don't care if you believe it or not. I mentioned it because YOU claimed that an omnipotent God can't change. The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea.

I'm not sure if any human religion has all the answers -- I doubt it. But I will say that the religion of Western Civilization produced the best results of any I know of, since we were the first to grant liberty to ordinary people, and the first to harness enlightened self-interest in the form of capitalism, to raise the human condition out of abject poverty and misery. So if I had to guess, I would guess the Christians must be closer to the truth than most.

As to the math, an analogy might explain. I comprehend a straight line (math), I just have some difficulty drawing one.
The exercise comment was to illustrate that a single entity is able to change, but that change does not equal evolution. Semantics?
Since you had only suggested the Bible and no other, it appeared to me that you were recommending it as authority. My misinterpretation of your comment.
I think you might be confusing someone else's comments with mine, however, my position (philosophically) is that if God (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent) is perfection, there should be no need to change. But, as you point out, God has changed. Religion, a human construct, changes to keep and expand its influence over the faithful. As religion changes, the associated god(s) will be seen to change to accommodate the people. From a philosophical point of view, is that backward?

[fdpaq0580]

Odd, the direction that this discussion has taken. It started as a discussion of creation/intelligent design as opposed to evolution), which then somehow devolved into bringing a guy with a long beard and white robes holding court somewhere beyond the clouds, his assumed capabilities, motivation, etc.

Why does "intelligent design" have to include a God-person involved in in it?

I agree that this discussion has taken a lot of twists and turns, but, like a drive on a winding mountain road vs a NASCAR oval, the mountain road is more interesting.
As to involving "a God person", the concept of intelligent design implies that someone/something planned and orchestrated the creation and operation of the universe. Just as we see/imagine faces or animals when we look at clouds, some people see God's work when they try to comprehend the world or the universe. To have intelligent design, you must, presumably, have an intelligence.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Taught in schools? "Science is fact not fictional theories." So much Science taught in schools is not fact but SPUN current thought. We all know the earth is flat and the planets revolve around the earth. Much of education is indoctrination. Few teachers are educated enough, bright enough or have the time to discuss these things.
Religious education is indocrination. The earth is not flat as the photos from space being just once source, will show. Science is for thinkers, not just believers, which is what "faith" is.

[fdpaq0580]

What about all the particles generated by the Big Bang and comprising the early universe before any life existed to observe them?

From the perspective of a believer, they could say that the God that created the gigantic firework, ignited and observed it.

[ThirdOfFive]

From the perspective of a believer, they could say that the God that created the gigantic firework, ignited and observed it.
Interesting.

What is the difference, really between "The big bang", and "Let there be light"?

[fdpaq0580]

Interesting.

What is the difference, really between "The big bang", and "Let there be light"?

Oh, my. Lets see what my pea brain can come up with. How about this: "Let there be light" was the spoken command of God, a sentient entity, which created light from nothing. The big bang, in over simplified terms, was produced when a "singularity" exploded for, as yet, unknown reasons, expelling vast quantities of energy as light, heat, matter,etc.
In the first scenario, the religious one, a supreme entity lights the fuse, essentially. In the second, spontaneous combustion. No supernatural entities were involved.

Well?

[ThirdOfFive]

Oh, my. Lets see what my pea brain can come up with. How about this: "Let there be light" was the spoken command of God, a sentient entity, which created light from nothing. The big bang, in over simplified terms, was produced when a "singularity" exploded for, as yet, unknown reasons, expelling vast quantities of energy as light, heat, matter,etc.
In the first scenario, the religious one, a supreme entity lights the fuse, essentially. In the second, spontaneous combustion. No supernatural entities were involved.

Well?
Aye. But the RESULT is the same, no matter who lit the fuse.

Isn't that really all that matters?

[fdpaq0580]

Aye. But the RESULT is the same, no matter who lit the fuse.

Isn't that really all that matters?

For some that may be enough. For others it is not enough. For some it is enough that their belly is full. Others, once their hunger has been satisfied, begin to realize that they get hungry at regular intervals, and they begin wondering where their next meal will come from. This is the beginning of curiosity. After some time they are wondering about all sorts of things. Now we are wondering about the creation of, not just the world, but the entire universe. We wonder about creation itself. Pretty amazing what we are capable of. Only about 150,000 years ago we were small apeish creatures whose only concerns were food and predators. Now we think amazing thoughts, do amazing things. If we could quit squabbling and manage to survive another 150,000 years, I wonder what we might become. What thoughts will they be thinking. And what amazing things will they be doing.
I wonder! Don't you?

[Pairadocs]

hi,
the theory of evolution has never been proven. There is no missing link. Yet we teach it in schools. Why? In Darwins book, he left a bail out to his theory. It was the one thing he could not answer and he admitted it would be proof his conclusions were incorrect. Pre Cambrian fossils showed no signs of evolution to explain the over abundance of many animals in fossils in the Cambrian period. Animals just showed up out of nowhere in the Cambrian period. Why do we cont If inue to believe this incorrect theory as well as aliens, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster. Are we all that dumb or are we just looking for entertainment. Regardless, Darwins theory should not be taught in schools as it is not fact. Just tell them we don't know. We have enough fiction in the world today. Science is fact not fictional theories.

If you truly mean "why", if you are hoping for a serious reply, then I'd say look to human nature. Psychologically, it is very difficult for people to "give up" such institutionalize ideas. The latest, which will be interesting to observe, will be related to the "pandemic". Now that the CDC has made a small step toward acknowledging the truth (yes, I recognize they are still gaslighting, but I don't want to address the political aspect here, I simply want to point out some examples of how human beings will hold strongly to things even when they have been completely debunked) it will be interesting to observe how many people will continue to hold things associated with things such as paper and common cotton fabric "masks", 6', not 5' or 8', but 6' foot distance between individuals, and so on. People are simply reluctant to "let go" of "established" or what they think of as "scientific". In academia, we seldom discard as the "new" comes to light ! It's.... human nature !

[Pairadocs]

So is the choice between evolution and creation? Did things "just happen" and then bumbled along haphazardly from there, resulting in the world we have today? Sorry, I don't buy it. The reason is as follows.

"Most people know about DNA (aka deoxyribonucleic acid) as the molecule that holds the information, i.e. the genetic codes, within our bodies. What some people don’t realise is that this equates to a seriously large amount of information being stored within a single biomolecule. DNA molecules can store up to 215 petabytes, or 215 million gigabytes, of data in a single doubled stranded molecule, making it one of the highest storage density mediums in the world. Simply put, the information storage devices within our bodies are much more capable than we can currently create, so there has been a lot of focus in trying to harness the power and data storage capabilities of DNA for our own man-made data storage systems." (Electro pages: storing information and data with DNA). ONE petabyte contains 500 billion pages of standard printed text. Multiply that by 215... I am not sure I can comprehend a number that large. That number is contained in a "database" if you can call it that, that exists on a submicroscopic level. Asking somebody to believe that that "just happened" is beyond ludicrous. The watch proves the existence of the watchmaker

That said, I'm not convinced that the fossil record is solid proof of anything. So few living things become fossils; conditions have to be just right for fossilization to happen. I recall hearing something recently that may be one in 100,000 animals or plants become fossils, and even with the ones that do become fossils, there is no guarantee that they will be found, or that they will not be destroyed in some natural event such as a flood, volcano, or whatever. To me, expecting the fossil record to be a reliable chronology of development is like depending on a calendar with maybe five numbers on it to be the reliable chronology of the number of days in a decade.

But we can use reasoning. We know, or think we know, two things. Fossils exist, and the earth changes. Oftentimes those changes in the earth are widespread and drastic. Assuming the existence of a creator God, we can also assume intelligence and foreknowledge on the part of that God. If God created the physical environment to change, as it does, then is it not reasonable to assume that God also provided the life he created to adapt according to the changes of the physical environment? Again, assuming the existence of that God, the answer cannot be no. The proof is that we are here.

I have never seen evolution versus creation as an either/or thing. In my mind they exist together working perfectly in tandem. They always have.

I completely agree ! I have never consider them mutually exclusive for the same reasons you outlined ! But, the idea that they can not both be true, certainly makes for more fodder for media, politicos, etc. :icon_wink::icon_wink:

[jimbomaybe]

Well, in the case of Quantum Mechanics, if you don't get the math, I guess you'll just have to take it from me. If a particle isn't observed, it doesn't exist. "Multiple Universes" is just a sci-fi idea that grew out of popular misunderstanding of the math.

I don't get your second comment about evolution. What does exercise have to do with evolution? I never said I disagreed that evolution changes species from one to another.

The reason I mentioned the Bible wasn't to hold it up as authority. I don't care if you believe it or not. I mentioned it because YOU claimed that an omnipotent God can't change. The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea.

I'm not sure if any human religion has all the answers -- I doubt it. But I will say that the religion of Western Civilization produced the best results of any I know of, since we were the first to grant liberty to ordinary people, and the first to harness enlightened self-interest in the form of capitalism, to raise the human condition out of abject poverty and misery. So if I had to guess, I would guess the Christians must be closer to the truth than most.

Good news for people in hell, god can be wrong, " The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea." There should be no problem finding lawyers in the same place who will help you file an appeal, but then I am still stuck on the watch has to have a watchmaker idea, that somehow you don't then need a creation source for the watchmaker , to my poor logic god is and always was doesn't explain

[Rainger99]

Why do we need a deep thinkers two?

I don’t think any posting on TOTV should be called “Deep Thinkers.”

[ThirdOfFive]

For some that may be enough. For others it is not enough. For some it is enough that their belly is full. Others, once their hunger has been satisfied, begin to realize that they get hungry at regular intervals, and they begin wondering where their next meal will come from. This is the beginning of curiosity. After some time they are wondering about all sorts of things. Now we are wondering about the creation of, not just the world, but the entire universe. We wonder about creation itself. Pretty amazing what we are capable of. Only about 150,000 years ago we were small apeish creatures whose only concerns were food and predators. Now we think amazing thoughts, do amazing things. If we could quit squabbling and manage to survive another 150,000 years, I wonder what we might become. What thoughts will they be thinking. And what amazing things will they be doing.
I wonder! Don't you?
Well said.

[ThirdOfFive]

Good news for people in hell, god can be wrong, " The God in the Bible has changed many times. The god of every religion I know of changes. You are the only one who seems to confuse omnipotence with static perfection, and I merely used the Christian God as an example to refute that idea." There should be no problem finding lawyers in the same place who will help you file an appeal, but then I am still stuck on the watch has to have a watchmaker idea, that somehow you don't then need a creation source for the watchmaker , to my poor logic god is and always was doesn't explain
Something I've pondered.

"Always was" presupposes a beginning date or event. Call it the Big Bang, call it the Creation, call it whatever. But in order to define "always" we have to have a beginning. Our reality begins with that beginning. Our perception cannot extend beyond, or outside, that reality, because it is all there is.

Therefore to ask "what happened BEFORE the beginning?" is illogical. There is no way we can ever know.

[fdpaq0580]

Something I've pondered.

"Always was" presupposes a beginning date or event. Call it the Big Bang, call it the Creation, call it whatever. But in order to define "always" we have to have a beginning. Our reality begins with that beginning. Our perception cannot extend beyond, or outside, that reality, because it is all there is.

Therefore to ask "what happened BEFORE the beginning?" is illogical. There is no way we can ever know.

Disagree with your definition of "always was". To me "always" indicates infinity. If you presuppose a starting date then to say something has "always" been would be incorrect. It has only been "since the starting date".
To ponder what happened before is actually possible. We haven't mentioned it yet, but there is a theory that the universe oscillates. The universe will expand, slow to a stop, then collapse then start over again.

[Davonu]

Disagree with your definition of "always was". To me "always" indicates infinity. If you presuppose a starting date then to say something has "always" been would be incorrect. It has only been "since the starting date".
To ponder what happened before is actually possible. We haven't mentioned it yet, but there is a theory that the universe oscillates. The universe will expand, slow to a stop, then collapse then start over again.
Agree. But it still doesn’t answer the question of how/when the oscillations started.

But the oscillations have been there forever! Forever? What’s that? We’re back to the beginning of the discussion again. :D

[JerryLBell]

The argument is: Complex things require creators. The universe is so complex that it requires a creator.

However, if complex things can't arise without a creator from simpler things, then the creator must be more complex than the created thing. But that beggars the question: How did the creator come to be? The usual answer is that the creator "just is". Even as a child I thought that was a silly answer, on part with "Because I said so!"

Science has always struck me not as having all the answers but as being a process that eventually comes closer and closer to having answers that are accurate enough to be verifiable and be predictive. As far as the fossil record being incomplete, that is true. However, it is FAR more complete than some folks (including the OP) give it credit for. Whenever someone claims that no one has found the "missing link" between a predecessor species and an successor species, the fact is that there are usually several such examples showing intermediary speciation.

Oh well. You can't convince some folks. Some folks see ships disappearing below the horizon and the seeming flatness of the land around them as proof positive that the world is flat.

[fdpaq0580]

Agree. But it still doesn’t answer the question of how/when the oscillations started.

But the oscillations have been there forever! Forever? What’s that? We’re back to the beginning of the discussion again. :D

Infinity! Forever! Finite creatures attempting to truly comprehend the infinite is a near, if not completely, impossible exercise. Our best effort to visualize is likely the mobius strip. But, in reality, trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, know the unknowable is impossible. Still, we can think about it, talk about it, theorize and philosophise about it, and I think that is amazing.