Deep Thinkers 5

[SHIBUMI]

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........

[tophcfa]

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........

OK, I’ll bite. If all the immigrants coming into our country (many of which are entering illegally) aren’t filling the country’s need for cheap labor, then why the hell don’t we close the borders?

[fdpaq0580]

While I think this could be interesting, the potential for turning political is immense. I'll keep hands off, thanks.

[SHIBUMI]

no guts no glory............it's all about economic philosophy only

[fdpaq0580]

no guts no glory............it's all about economic philosophy only

Oh, I am going to follow this. Even if politics rears its ugly head, it will be interesting.

Baiting the hook. See if I get a bite.

[fdpaq0580]

OK, I’ll bite. If all the immigrants coming into our country (many of which are entering illegally) aren’t filling the country’s need for cheap labor, then why the hell don’t we close the borders?

Should we, could we?

[ThirdOfFive]

no guts no glory............it's all about economic philosophy only
I’ve never yet heard a theory put forth by a distinguished economist that there hasn’t been an equally distinguished economist there to tell the first economist that he/she is absolutely no clue.

Everything is relative. My father told stories of times when earning enough one day to feed the family the next was an accomplishment. I’d say that the number of Americans who have had to face that reality in the past fifty or so years is nearly nonexistent, yet the outcry from our “oppressed” workers probably eclipses that in the 1930s several times over. We pay people not to work by assuring that their unemployment “benefits” total more than they’d earn—lifesaving health care is available free of cost to anyone needing it—poverty is not defined by not having the money to purchase shoes but not being able to afford the newest and fanciest smartphone. We have created a class in this country not of the poverty - stricken or even the needy, but of the pampered and the entitled. And Joe Taxpayer gets to support them.

I was the trials endured by 1930s Americans that made them arguably The Greatest Generation. America today has no such mountain to climb, and thus no route to greatness or reason to achieve it.

[Luggage]

We make plenty of things here from underwear and to autos .

[La lamy]

I like capitalism that lets people believe hard work will lead to well deserved pay, but I have an issue with capitalism that leads to grotesque greed. It's ironic that some supposed "God fearing/loving" people don't think "what would Jesus think?" before amassing more than needed and leaving their employees in the dust of misery. That's where I believe unions and regulating governments are absolutely necessary.

[MandoMan]

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........

You are right. We had close to unfettered Capitalism at the end of the 19th Century, and while there were Capitalists with lots of capital who got rich, it was a very small part of the population, and the lack of “safety nets” caused a level of suffering for the working class and below that is rare today. In the 20th Century, Capitalism was bridled by the laws you mention. The effect was that the Capitalists stayed rich, but nearly everyone else in the country has a much higher standard of living than we would otherwise have had. Virtually every retired person in The Villages is here because of Social Security, pensions from businesses and the military, union membership, mutual funds letting little folks participate in business investments, government guarantees of savings, Medicare, supplemental health insurance, selling houses that we bought decades ago elsewhere, price supports, and much more. All of these keep Capitalism from being as powerful (and dangerous) as it could be, but they make it possible for all of us to participate in the blessings of Capitalism and even call ourselves Capitalists, even though we aren’t as the word was used in 1890. We could call this Capitalism modified by Socialism, but I’d rather call it something like socially-responsible Capitalism. Many countries have that, and the proportions vary, but wherever it happens, it seems to offer the greatest happiness for the greatest number.

[Sandy and Ed]

We make plenty of things here from underwear and to autos .
…..and please…don’t forget pillows and car mats, you know, all that hi-tech stuff

[Blackbird45]

Capitalism / Socialism - This country is a mix of both. Pure capitalism centers around money which leads to the ruling class. Socialism is to share the wealth and those who decided who deserves what becomes the ruling class.

[Blackbird45]

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A PROBLEM

How do you combat this problem. A majority of the people who enter this country come for a better life, to achieve this they need a job. Instead of punishing these people you punish the people who are knowingly hiring them. Make the financial punishment so punitive that it is not worth the risk of employing illegal immigrants. If there is no work, they will not come.

Now the question, how do you go about this. We do have a system in place which utilizes the use of the social security card. The problem is this is antiquated and needs to be brought into the 21st century. I believe this task can be achieved in two and a half years and at a much lower cost than a wall. I have a credit card in my wallet, I make a purchase at my local supermarket, by the time I get home I receive an email notice not only telling me where I made the purchase, but also the amount that was spent. I have a handy person come to my home, they pull out a scanner, they swipe my card, and the payment is made within seconds. This is the technology that has to be adopted by the social security system.

[Blackbird45]

IT WILL TAKE FOUR STEPS TO SOLVE THE IMMIGRATION PROBLEM:

1. Employ the services of the credit card company to replace our flimsy paper card with plastic, a chip, a strip and possible photo. The company that takes this on will be given 1 year to complete this task, with financial incentives for early completion.

2. Once these cards are up and running, all working citizens of this country and people here on visas will be given one year to obtain their new card. These cards could be assigned at the social security offices, post offices or maybe even in states DMV offices. When a person obtains their card, they will enter a personal pin number. After the year this new card will be the social card of the country.

3. At the end of the year of obtaining new cards. A new phase will start where all employers will be given six months to scan the cards of their existing employees. If any of the employee’s cards are rejected, they will be given one month to resolve the issue. If the issue is not resolved in this time period, their employment will be terminated. At the end of the six months all new applicants will be scan if their cards are rejected, they will not be hired.

4. If any employer is caught using workers that have not had their cards scanned, the employer will be fined $15,000 per worker. Though this might seem to be excessive you are trying to cover three objectives. First is reducing the number of undocumented people within our boarders. Second to increase the amount of tax dollars collected by the government, legal workers are not taxed. Third to protect the workers themselves, illegal workers are usually underpaid and abused. These fines will be divided into two amounts, 1/3 of the total fine going to the government to enforce legal immigration and 2/3 of the total fine for anyone who reports this violation to the authorities.

[Blackbird45]

EXAMPLE:

Jose illegally crosses the boarder and secures a job from farmer Gray. when he gets out into the field, he meets another who has entered the country like himself. He also meets an illegal Canadian who has overstayed his visa and an American. Jose decides instead of working all summer for less than minimum wage he will call the authorities and turn in farmer gray.

Immigration sends all three illegal workers back to their respective countries.
Once the case is adjudicated Jose receives a check for $40,000.

You might question why $40,000 since there were only three illegal workers. Farmer Gray was fined for not scanning the employee’s cards, not because he hired undocumented workers. the American was working off the books. Billions in tax dollars are lost every year due to unreported employment. Eventually it will become cost prohibitive for restaurants, farmers, hotels, landscapers and golf courses to hire undocumented worker and people off the books.

Many will see it as putting the onus on an employer. The fact is these people should not be considered employers, but people who are aiding and abetting a criminal act.

Many will see it as putting the onus on an employer. The fact is these people should not be considered employers, but people who are aiding and abetting a criminal act.

Many will see this as anti-immigrant. The fact is this is pro-immigration. Once this pool of illegal undocumented workers dries up, it will be employers that will be demanding the country expedites legal immigrations. Legal immigrations will be a benefit for everyone.

[Blackbird45]

Positives of this proposal:

• Due to the size of the reward this will truly be SELF-POLICING. Anyone can report a violation even the employee themselves.

• This will not only cover our southern border but will restrict illegal immigration from anywhere.

• The influx of more tax dollars without raising taxes. Taxes are brought in when work is reported by employers. When employers do not report undocumented workers or employees working off the books, they’re skirting the law. These tax dollars also include needed F.I.C.A. contributions which covers Social Security and Medicare.

• Employers will not have to keep track of visa workers; the government can notify employer when the visa holders time is about to expired.

• These cards can be used for other purposes. Lately there has been a focus on voting, one side claiming voter fraud and the other side claiming the lack of voting availability. With this card there will be one vote per card any attempt to place a second vote will be rejected. On election day authorized ATMs will be able to accept your vote, it might even reach a point that someday a voters will have the ability to cast their vote online.

Many people will tell you this is a form of big brother, and they would be absolutely right. But these people are ignoring with the advent of the internet we are already there. What has to be decided does the good outweigh the bad.

[hrenner]

Great answer.

[Worldseries27]

hi,
capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. Examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........
capitalism fueled by manifest destiny has created the greatest work force in the world creating for the most part entry into a middle class which other repressive models of countries do not allow. The best part of our system is how our small businesses employ people with little skills and empowers them to seek better higher jobs as they work their way towards higher better paid skill sets by attending small colleges, 4 year schools, vocational training schools. These workers are nearly 50 % of our entire work force and are the highest group to start up new small businesses therfore creating a self sustaing chain reaction to grow.
In terms of social programs the ones that allow you to become a permanent beneficiary eg. Project apts being passed down generation to generation are the abject failures, along with higher paid benefits for the more children they produce.
Social programs need
firm cut off points and mandatory retraining so they join the work force at the small business levels and hopefully move up from there to higher paying careers

[rsmurano]

Any socialism is bad. Who gives anybody the right to take money away from someone to give it to another? Nobody should have that right. This doesn’t work and that’s been proven. The only people that make money in the unions are the unions.
Capitalism pays off when somebody wants to go above and beyond the norm or if people want to actually work.
Nowadays, nobody wants to work. This generation feels that they deserve to make a high salary or hold a top job without doing the necessary work to get there.

[joelfmi]

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........

capitalism doesn't work for the majority of the people. It works for millionaires and billionaires. It works for governments and global corporations and investors who are raking in millions on the back of the 'little person'. Capitalism will work better when government's tax these wealthy entities to provide services and opportunities to the less well off in our society. But here in Australia, they won't. Our current government will let the environment be destroyed and leave people homeless on the street, while billionaires such as Gina Rhinehart pollute our atmosphere and increase their wealth exponentially. We can spend hundreds of millions 'fighting' wars - but we have a government that wants us working until we are 70 and wants people under 30 left with no benefits for six months of each financial year. Gotta love capitalism !!!

[Larchap49]

We make plenty of things here from underwear and to autos .

HA! Read the fine print. Even things that are labeled made in America are mostly made from parts made in China or elsewhere. Look around all the big manufacturers or at least the majority along with there good paying long term jobs have disappeared from American towns. We are now a country of service industry jobs. The well off and those that serve them. Good by America the great.

[KimmieK]

Perhaps a different social platform would be better for these posts.

[Larchap49]

capitalism doesn't work for the majority of the people. It works for millionaires and billionaires. It works for governments and global corporations and investors who are raking in millions on the back of the 'little person'. Capitalism will work better when government's tax these wealthy entities to provide services and opportunities to the less well off in our society. But here in Australia, they won't. Our current government will let the environment be destroyed and leave people homeless on the street, while billionaires such as Gina Rhinehart pollute our atmosphere and increase their wealth exponentially. We can spend hundreds of millions 'fighting' wars - but we have a government that wants us working until we are 70 and wants people under 30 left with no benefits for six months of each financial year. Gotta love capitalism !!!

Just look at the history of socialism and see if your opinion holds up. It won't. But if not convinced pack up and move your ass to a socialist country where you will have no rights and can work hard and give half your earning to the socialist government.

[Ski Bum]

Positives of this proposal:

• Due to the size of the reward this will truly be SELF-POLICING. Anyone can report a violation even the employee themselves.

• This will not only cover our southern border but will restrict illegal immigration from anywhere.

• The influx of more tax dollars without raising taxes. Taxes are brought in when work is reported by employers. When employers do not report undocumented workers or employees working off the books, they’re skirting the law. These tax dollars also include needed F.I.C.A. contributions which covers Social Security and Medicare.

• Employers will not have to keep track of visa workers; the government can notify employer when the visa holders time is about to expired.

• These cards can be used for other purposes. Lately there has been a focus on voting, one side claiming voter fraud and the other side claiming the lack of voting availability. With this card there will be one vote per card any attempt to place a second vote will be rejected. On election day authorized ATMs will be able to accept your vote, it might even reach a point that someday a voters will have the ability to cast their vote online.

Many people will tell you this is a form of big brother, and they would be absolutely right. But these people are ignoring with the advent of the internet we are already there. What has to be decided does the good outweigh the bad.

Not bad Blackbird. I am an employer, in landscaping, so very familiar with the topic. All I want is a level playing field and a system that works. I currently use the H2B Visa program. We applied for workers last September for arrival in April. We got them in July. Hard to run a business that way. Just FYI, (not complaining), I am required to pay them $18.35/hr.

[jammaiora]

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........
Government programs to help US citizens who are disadvantaged are important. Our taxes are like the insurance premiums that we pay (homeowners, car. umbrella policies). When there is a disaster in the US, our taxes (premium for FEMA) help the disaster victims. Government exists to help the less fortunate among us, among other purposes.

[airstreamingypsy]

OK, I’ll bite. If all the immigrants coming into our country (many of which are entering illegally) aren’t filling the country’s need for cheap labor, then why the hell don’t we close the borders?

The borders are closed. They are only open on the fictional world of Fox News.

[Langwelld]

Capitalism is absolutely the best system to promote good standards of living for a countries citizens, but no system they s perfect. When government officials fail to intervene when workers are exploited then workers group into unions to defend themselves. When government officials in charge of regulating industry are bought off with investment opportunities, job offers, and just plain cash then they fail to do their jobs. This is where we are in certain areas in our USA. It takes a strong leader to stop other countries from enslaving their people so they can use this cheap labor to make better trade deals. One example of the shortcoming of capitalism was the fact that there was great profit incentives to create and market vaccines, but little incentives for therapeutics for treating I’ll patients. Hence millions died with those treatment options since vaccines were not totally effective in preventing infection. This is where government steps in to insure those treatments become available.
B][/B]Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........

[airstreamingypsy]

Any socialism is bad. Who gives anybody the right to take money away from someone to give it to another? Nobody should have that right. This doesn’t work and that’s been proven. The only people that make money in the unions are the unions.
Capitalism pays off when somebody wants to go above and beyond the norm or if people want to actually work.
Nowadays, nobody wants to work. This generation feels that they deserve to make a high salary or hold a top job without doing the necessary work to get there.

"Any socialism is bad" Good grief. Schools, police and fire departments, roads, bridges, public transportation, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and just a few examples of democratic/socialism. I bet it would surprise you to know that the people who live in the 10 happiest countries to live in, all live in democratic/socialist countries. The USA isn't one of the 10 happiest countries BTW, I suspect because so many people here are one illness away from losing everything..... we are the only civilized country that doesn't have healthcare for all.

[Langwelld]

When effective government does its job to see that citizens are treated fairly and their needs armrest provided for by private industry then you have the best of both socialism and capitalism. But when government takes over these needs of the citizens then you have inefficient waste and incompetence as evidenced by the Berlin Wall the the fall of Russia.
"Any socialism is bad" Good grief. Schools, police and fire departments, roads, bridges, public transportation, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and just a few examples of democratic/socialism. I bet it would surprise you to know that the people who live in the 10 happiest countries to live in, all live in democratic/socialist countries. The USA isn't one of the 10 happiest countries BTW, I suspect because so many people here are one illness away from losing everything..... we are the only civilized country that doesn't have healthcare for all.

[Regorp]

no guts no glory............it's all about economic philosophy only

Sad to say, economics is a memory in our country, people.

[Joan cole]

For once, a true thinker who has reached higher consciousness

[djplong]

OK, I’ll bite. If all the immigrants coming into our country (many of which are entering illegally) aren’t filling the country’s need for cheap labor, then why the hell don’t we close the borders?

Amazing how people can be fleeing gang persecution, rape and murder and your takeaway is making sure we have enough cheap labor to exploit.

[Joe C.]

IMHO .... Capitalism is great! You know, "No risk, no reward", "Fortune favors the bold", and all that stuff. However, to prevent greed, there is a need for business regulation. No monopolies, regulation of public utilities, etc. But socialism? That's when the government pays people to do nothing, whether it's through laziness or lack of education, or disability. I'm a firm believer in contributing my efforts to success. If I work hard for myself, then I should benefit. If I work hard, should the government take my benefits and give them to someone who doesn't or won't work? I don't think so. I could go on..... welfare programs should be temporary, and not continue through several generations of the same families. In a capitalist society, any social programs should have a short time frame. Remember ..... You can't make the weak stronger by weakening the strong.

[Villages Kahuna]

You assert,” We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism.”

Of course there is only one other country “as large as ours”, so your “survey” is badly flawed. In fact there are other countries that if not actually socialist are so heavily taxed that they operate like socialist countries. Various polls and interviews of residents of Scandinavian countries consistently show that they are very happy, trust their governments to provide a much wider variety of social services than are provided to Americans, and almost always reject the idea of moving to the U.S. as being undesirable to them.

Claims that U.S. capitalism and that our style of democracy are the best systems in the world are nowhere near as widely accepted throughout the world as many Americans assert.

As a matter of fact, the way our democracy is currently operating and my perception of the chances that it will change doesn’t tempt me to be an unfettered proponent for our systems. Finns, Swedes, Danes and Norwegians respond to surveys saying that they like the services and policies of their democratically-elected governments and would have little interest in moving to the U.S. They understand that they are paying taxes to support the government policies and programs offered to them and find that quite acceptable.

As far as I’m concerned saying that I am happy with the breadth and quality of governmentally-provided programs here in the U.S. is incorrect. Saying that I actually trust my elected representatives couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’m too old to move to another country to achieve such satisfactions and trust and I fear for what the U.S. will become for my grandchildren. I wish I could have higher hopes.

[ProfessorDave]

A different view to consider:
A. Capitalism - Socialism... is actually a myth.There is no country on earth that currently meets any of the definitions you will find in dictionaries, encyclopedias or academic work.

B. A Better Version For Dialogue... two spectrums - multiple layers. At either end of each spectrum is a) "collectivism" - political policy/government control that is best for society - is best for the individual too and b) "individualism" - political policy/lack of government control that is best for the individual - is best for society as a whole. Place those spectrums against different layers of a society and you get a more realistic evaluation than "capitalism and socialism". These layers include: economic, healthcare, shelter, safety /laws, freedom of general choice, education, etc.

For example - if on a spectrum - with "1" being collectivism and "10" being individualism - you might consider China as healthcare = 2; shelter = 2; safety = 1; freedom of general choice = 4 but trending lower; and economics = 4 (up from a 1 - 20 years ago.)

For example - if on a spectrum - with "1" being collectivism and "10" being individualism - you might consider United States as healthcare = 8 - 20 years ago, trending towards a 5 (Obamacare); shelter = 9 - 20 years ago trending towards an 8 (min. low income housing in developments); safety = 7 - 20 years ago trending towards a 4 (i.e. class action suits - individual not responsible for decisions - like smoking); freedom of general choice= 9 trending towards a 6 (abortion; guns) and economics = 9 - 20 years ago to a 7 (OSHA Rules; Government Filings; etc.); and military has been a "1" for years (collectivism) - which by the way - people like Jefferson were against - wanted militias. And - as a reality of history - one of the reasons "right to bear arms" is such a watered down - different interpretations topic is that it was compromise wording allowing collaboration between an organized military (including even the founding of West Point) and those who did not want an organized military as the primary defense - but wanted country defense primarily by militias.

The United States has never had pure capitalism (total freedom of choice in purchasing and production without government interference - but it was more free than most. What I find interesting is that most of the top ten countries in the world on economic / business freedom - closest to capitalism (Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, etc.) - and are much more free than even the US - are on the other hand considered "socialists" (I'd say collectivism) on education and healthcare.

Net/net. I find it easier to evaluate/consider societies based on the layer of the country - and to what degree policy and government control is primarily what's best for society versus what's best for the individual. Simplicity of capitalism and socialism as ways of looking at a society as a whole are not effective.

Hope this is helpful for some - and in their healthy dialogue with others.

[Worldseries27]

the borders are closed. They are only open on the fictional world of fox news.
so that wasn't nyc mayor adams ranting and raving
on national tv about texas bussing and flying them into nyc???

[retiredguy123]

You don't need to be much of a deep thinker to understand that most of the ideas on this thread will not work because they cannot be implemented. Most states and the Federal Government refuse to mandate a very simple system called "E-verify" where an employer can immediately determine if a worker has a valid Social Security number and is able to work legally.

[SHIBUMI]

We, in the US of A are far better off than our counterparts in China or Russia thanks to capitalism. Scandinavian countries are the equivalent to 1 of our states. They offer no retirement systems and help only the indigent. The complexity of dealing with multiple states is something they don't have to deal with. Which probably makes them happier. Capitalism with the right social programs is a chance for people to dream and make those dreams come true.

[Andyb]

If you open the door to social programs, you will eventually end up with Socialism, as is what is happening today.
And, by the way, I have not heard of any Economists state what your saying.

[undertaker]

You need to know what capitalism is and what it isn’t and what it is intended to do.

Capitalism is a money machine; it produces wealth in by and large an efficient and effective way by establishing a system where someone voluntarily gives money in exchange for a good or service. If the boss makes 1,000 times as much as the average worker, capitalism says not my department. I produce wealth. How it is distributed is not my business. That is the job of fiscal policy not monetary policy. Capitalism doesn’t concern itself with how the money is taxed or used. People often blame capitalism when they should be looking elsewhere.

[Blackbird45]

You don't need to be much of a deep thinker to understand that most of the ideas on this thread will not work because they cannot be implemented. Most states and the Federal Government refuse to mandate a very simple system called "E-verify" where an employer can immediately determine if a worker has a valid Social Security number and is able to work legally.

The problem here is that employers are not held accountable. If you impose a heavy fine on the employer for not reporting an employee without verifying their status you would have more control who is in this country. Take the Texas abortion rule where anyone can collect a reward for turning anyone in for violating the law. You'll put that in place and see how fast employers will stop hiring illegal immigrants.

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

no guts no glory............it's all about economic philosophy only

Rich, while I think this is a great topic, the likelihood that it won't become political is huge.

People have different ideas about capitalism and socialism.

The basic idea behind capitalism is free enterprise, which also entails freedom of speech and self-determination. It protect the rights of the individual. Its goal is the maximization of profit. This can lead to class differences and market monopoly, and abuse of the individual by those with the capital / wealth, and oligarchy (rule by an elite class).

The basic idea behind socialism is the greatest good for the greatest number. The rights of the society as a whole supersede that of the individual. It has been said that the mark of a great society is how well they care for its weakest members, and also that socialism is the political expression of Christianity. However, it can lead to the suppression of the individual and the stifling of incentive, and control of the society by a small group or oligarchy (rule by an elite class).

See where this is headed? I myself think that we need to find a balance whereby the individual is not stifled but at the same time the weakest in society are cared for. In my opinion we have a long way to go to get there. And while I'm not an economist, it doesn't seem to me that anyone has come up with an economic theory that will solve this problem.

[joelfmi]

Just look at the history of socialism and see if your opinion holds up. It won't. But if not convinced pack up and move your ass to a socialist country where you will have no rights and can work hard and give half your earning to the socialist government.
Looking at what is happening now it is being taken shape in USA

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Looking at what is happening now it is being taken shape in USA

Right, the corporations are making record profits with the lowest taxes in history, and the divergence between the rich and poor is also the greatest in our history, because there is little regulation and legislation is on the side of corporations because of Citizens United and other SCOTUS rulings.

[jimjamuser]

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........Looking to other countries for cheap labor has the benefits of lower costs for INDIVIDUAL companies. That's great for them. But, there are other GREAT costs for the US and US society. Namely, China and others STEAL our technology. There are additional shipping costs to making goods overseas. We have singlehandedly made China into a world power that rivals the US and NOW threatens us MILITARILY. It has increased supply disruptions of important goods and medicines for the US. This even includes even CRITICAL military parts.

Outsourcing has made individual Corporations rich, but has been responsible for the average wages of US citizens remaining constant (with respect to inflation) since 1970. Outsourcing in combination with bad tax policy has given the US the greatest WEALTH DISPARITY in the 1st world. The country that fought a revolution against KINGS now is again ruled by KINGS.........Corporate KINGS......Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc, etc!!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

While I think this could be interesting, the potential for turning political is immense. I'll keep hands off, thanks.
Everything in society is political, from religion to education. It is there like a matrix, a subtext for everything!

[jimjamuser]

I’ve never yet heard a theory put forth by a distinguished economist that there hasn’t been an equally distinguished economist there to tell the first economist that he/she is absolutely no clue.

Everything is relative. My father told stories of times when earning enough one day to feed the family the next was an accomplishment. I’d say that the number of Americans who have had to face that reality in the past fifty or so years is nearly nonexistent, yet the outcry from our “oppressed” workers probably eclipses that in the 1930s several times over. We pay people not to work by assuring that their unemployment “benefits” total more than they’d earn—lifesaving health care is available free of cost to anyone needing it—poverty is not defined by not having the money to purchase shoes but not being able to afford the newest and fanciest smartphone. We have created a class in this country not of the poverty - stricken or even the needy, but of the pampered and the entitled. And Joe Taxpayer gets to support them.

I was the trials endured by 1930s Americans that made them arguably The Greatest Generation. America today has no such mountain to climb, and thus no route to greatness or reason to achieve it.
The US's "route to greatness" is the same as it has EVER been .........the same as it was for South Korea.......invest in your people, your own citizens. By that I mean - we NEED a VERY progressive tax system - meaning the rich MUST pay more .....and more like in the 1950s when America was TRULY great.

By invest, I mean to pull back from outsourcing, encourage small farmers and local farmers' markets, invest in highways and mass transportation, invest in clean air, and encourage E-bikes, golf carts, and electric cars and trucks.

MOST of all, the US needs to return to the tremendous PUBLIC education of the past by INCREASING taxes that support education. Return to providing VOCATIONAL education. Find a way to keep class size low. Recruit more teachers and pay them MORE. That is what I mean by investing in US citizens. Failure to do that will result in China becoming the world's dominant country and the US will be slowly weakened by an internal lack of unity.

[jimjamuser]

I like capitalism that lets people believe hard work will lead to well deserved pay, but I have an issue with capitalism that leads to grotesque greed. It's ironic that some supposed "God fearing/loving" people don't think "what would Jesus think?" before amassing more than needed and leaving their employees in the dust of misery. That's where I believe unions and regulating governments are absolutely necessary.
Well stated, we need more people like that.

[jimjamuser]

You are right. We had close to unfettered Capitalism at the end of the 19th Century, and while there were Capitalists with lots of capital who got rich, it was a very small part of the population, and the lack of “safety nets” caused a level of suffering for the working class and below that is rare today. In the 20th Century, Capitalism was bridled by the laws you mention. The effect was that the Capitalists stayed rich, but nearly everyone else in the country has a much higher standard of living than we would otherwise have had. Virtually every retired person in The Villages is here because of Social Security, pensions from businesses and the military, union membership, mutual funds letting little folks participate in business investments, government guarantees of savings, Medicare, supplemental health insurance, selling houses that we bought decades ago elsewhere, price supports, and much more. All of these keep Capitalism from being as powerful (and dangerous) as it could be, but they make it possible for all of us to participate in the blessings of Capitalism and even call ourselves Capitalists, even though we aren’t as the word was used in 1890. We could call this Capitalism modified by Socialism, but I’d rather call it something like socially-responsible Capitalism. Many countries have that, and the proportions vary, but wherever it happens, it seems to offer the greatest happiness for the greatest number.
I agree. Socialism is NOT a "bad word" and in the right amount can be thought of as the guard rails for effective Capitalism.

[jimjamuser]

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A PROBLEM

How do you combat this problem. A majority of the people who enter this country come for a better life, to achieve this they need a job. Instead of punishing these people you punish the people who are knowingly hiring them. Make the financial punishment so punitive that it is not worth the risk of employing illegal immigrants. If there is no work, they will not come.

Now the question, how do you go about this. We do have a system in place which utilizes the use of the social security card. The problem is this is antiquated and needs to be brought into the 21st century. I believe this task can be achieved in two and a half years and at a much lower cost than a wall. I have a credit card in my wallet, I make a purchase at my local supermarket, by the time I get home I receive an email notice not only telling me where I made the purchase, but also the amount that was spent. I have a handy person come to my home, they pull out a scanner, they swipe my card, and the payment is made within seconds. This is the technology that has to be adopted by the social security system.
The 1st step is to overcome the fact that the SS card can be EASILY forged.

[jimjamuser]

Any socialism is bad. Who gives anybody the right to take money away from someone to give it to another? Nobody should have that right. This doesn’t work and that’s been proven. The only people that make money in the unions are the unions.
Capitalism pays off when somebody wants to go above and beyond the norm or if people want to actually work.
Nowadays, nobody wants to work. This generation feels that they deserve to make a high salary or hold a top job without doing the necessary work to get there.
The successful need to give a HELPING HAND to those less successful. That's the rising tide lifts all boats theory. And the Federal Government can cause the rising tide. That's how the SS system began. Did not Jesus or someone else say to TEACH a starving man how to FISH? Today, I would say that means we need better PUBLIC education.

[jimjamuser]

Just look at the history of socialism and see if your opinion holds up. It won't. But if not convinced pack up and move your ass to a socialist country where you will have no rights and can work hard and give half your earning to the socialist government.
That is more directed toward China and Russia. There is NOTHING wrong with Sweden and Finland, which are mostly capitalist anyway. They rank in the top ten among countries in infant mortality and other measures of quality of life. Look it up! The US ranks around 30th. The US WAS in the top 10 around 1950. But, by 1975 the US middle class started to lose ground, mostly due to OVERLY greedy capitalists.......can we say Jack Welsh ? Or today's greedy CEOs ?

[jimjamuser]

Government programs to help US citizens who are disadvantaged are important. Our taxes are like the insurance premiums that we pay (homeowners, car. umbrella policies). When there is a disaster in the US, our taxes (premium for FEMA) help the disaster victims. Government exists to help the less fortunate among us, among other purposes.
Agreed. Good post.

[jimjamuser]

You assert,” We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism.”

Of course there is only one other country “as large as ours”, so your “survey” is badly flawed. In fact there are other countries that if not actually socialist are so heavily taxed that they operate like socialist countries. Various polls and interviews of residents of Scandinavian countries consistently show that they are very happy, trust their governments to provide a much wider variety of social services than are provided to Americans, and almost always reject the idea of moving to the U.S. as being undesirable to them.

Claims that U.S. capitalism and that our style of democracy are the best systems in the world are nowhere near as widely accepted throughout the world as many Americans assert.

As a matter of fact, the way our democracy is currently operating and my perception of the chances that it will change doesn’t tempt me to be an unfettered proponent for our systems. Finns, Swedes, Danes and Norwegians respond to surveys saying that they like the services and policies of their democratically-elected governments and would have little interest in moving to the U.S. They understand that they are paying taxes to support the government policies and programs offered to them and find that quite acceptable.

As far as I’m concerned saying that I am happy with the breadth and quality of governmentally-provided programs here in the U.S. is incorrect. Saying that I actually trust my elected representatives couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’m too old to move to another country to achieve such satisfactions and trust and I fear for what the U.S. will become for my grandchildren. I wish I could have higher hopes.
An all-time great post. Wonderful.

[loweglor]

The problem with Capitalism???? You don't have a democracy, you have an illusion of democracy.

[jimjamuser]

We, in the US of A are far better off than our counterparts in China or Russia thanks to capitalism. Scandinavian countries are the equivalent to 1 of our states. They offer no retirement systems and help only the indigent. The complexity of dealing with multiple states is something they don't have to deal with. Which probably makes them happier. Capitalism with the right social programs is a chance for people to dream and make those dreams come true.
I REALLY wish that it was true. If that were true, how can it be explained that the last 3 generations of US Americans, when asked, say that their children are not as well off as the PRIOR generation? There was a survey in the news recently about this - and a good majority of Americans said that their next generation will NOT be as well off as they have been. I mean those are the FACTS about the US and it is NOT optimistic.

[jimjamuser]

Right, the corporations are making record profits with the lowest taxes in history, and the divergence between the rich and poor is also the greatest in our history, because there is little regulation and legislation is on the side of corporations because of Citizens United and other SCOTUS rulings.
US wealth DISPARITY is the greatest in the 1st world. At least, we are number one at something.

[rogerrice60]

I’ve never yet heard a theory put forth by a distinguished economist that there hasn’t been an equally distinguished economist there to tell the first economist that he/she is absolutely no clue.

Everything is relative. My father told stories of times when earning enough one day to feed the family the next was an accomplishment. I’d say that the number of Americans who have had to face that reality in the past fifty or so years is nearly nonexistent, yet the outcry from our “oppressed” workers probably eclipses that in the 1930s several times over. We pay people not to work by assuring that their unemployment “benefits” total more than they’d earn—lifesaving health care is available free of cost to anyone needing it—poverty is not defined by not having the money to purchase shoes but not being able to afford the newest and fanciest smartphone. We have created a class in this country not of the poverty - stricken or even the needy, but of the pampered and the entitled. And Joe Taxpayer gets to support them.

I was the trials endured by 1930s Americans that made them arguably The Greatest Generation. America today has no such mountain to climb, and thus no route to greatness or reason to achieve it.
Excellent Response!

[Davonu]

US wealth DISPARITY is the greatest in the 1st world. At least, we are number one at something.
Because we are the richest country.

At least we know the leaders of those socialist countries have no more money than the poor folks they lead. :D

[jimjamuser]

Because we are the richest country.

At least we know the leaders of those socialist countries have no more money than the poor folks they lead. :D
TOTAL millionaires # 1 China # 2 United States

millionaires per CAPITA
1 ) Qatar
2 )Singapore
3 )Kuwait
4 )Switzerland
5 ) Hong Kong

I am not sure how far down the list is the US ?

[Donegalkid]

I like capitalism that lets people believe hard work will lead to well deserved pay, but I have an issue with capitalism that leads to grotesque greed. It's ironic that some supposed "God fearing/loving" people don't think "what would Jesus think?" before amassing more than needed and leaving their employees in the dust of misery. That's where I believe unions and regulating governments are absolutely necessary.

Well said. Thank you.

[loweglor]

I've collected unemployment twice in my life, for a very short time, and my payments weren't even close to what I was making as an employee. Where conservatives get the idea that people can live well on unemployment ought to try it for a while.

[loweglor]

I wonder how well the people of those countries live. It's swell to acknowledge those with millions........ how about focusing on the majority without millions, they need the attention.

[Two Bills]

I wonder how well the people of those countries live. It's swell to acknowledge those with millions........ how about focusing on the majority without millions, they need the attention.

What countries are you referring too?
Sounds like capitalist ones to me!:icon_wink:

[Blueblaze]

Capitalism is the economic system that pays people to serve their fellow man. The better they serve, the wealthier they become.

Socialism is the economic system that pays people to steal from their fellow men. The more they steal, the poorer they become.

There has never been an example of successful socialism. Nations fail in exact proportion to the degree to which they tolerate socialism. They succeed to the exact degree to which they allow capitalism to flourish. Note the falling standard of living in America, as we have become more socialist, while even a tiny amount of capitalism injected into the Chinese economy allowed them raise their enormous population from dire poverty for the first time in modern history.

The poorest citizen of a capitalist country lives better than an average person in a socialist country. But neither system has the slightest impact on the standard of living of the extremely wealthy. Extreme wealth is merely extremely rare in a socialist country, because it requires extreme political power, rather than extreme service.

Some people attribute our social safety net to socialism, and would say that this proves that pure capitalism is an impossible goal. This is a false choice. Take Social Security, for example. A capitalist would have merely required workers to save for their own retirement, rather than confiscating 15% of every paycheck to provide a stipend for the previous generation's victims. (Imagine your own wealth today if you had been free to invest that 15% that was confiscated from you to pay your parent's pathetic return on their 15%!) Unemployment insurance could have been provided in the same way, by requiring workers to purchase private insurance if they could not prove that they have a year's worth of salary in savings -- which most would have, if they'd been able to own the 15% they were required to save for retirement. Bottom line, a capitalist "safety net" would have resulted in wealthier workers and more stable employment.

Welfare, on the other hand, is merely a socialist trap that creates generations of dependent citizens with no hope of escaping poverty. The capitalist alternative is private charity, because it is targeted and limited. It does not condemn generations of fatherless children to poverty, as our welfare system does. But since a socialist requires dependent victims to keep them in power, government welfare is always their solution to poverty, not employment,

A committed socialist will tell you that their pure socialist paradise can never be achieved so long as capitalism is allowed to "exploit workers". That's why they murdered 100 million innocent capitalists in the 20th century alone. I guess killing a man is not exactly exploiting him, but I doubt that the victim would appreciate the difference.

One final point. The inventor of socialism, Karl Marx, once pointed out that socialism is merely a phase on the way to communism. He saw no difference, in the long run. It was the only thing he ever got right.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

As long as there is a country and a government, some degree of socialism will be necessary. The government itself is a socialist entity as is the military, police, fire, post office, social security and all other government entities.

The difference between the two is that a socialist service is always there but you have no choice. If you have a fire in your house, you call the fire department and they come and put out the fire and there is no cost to you. If you don't like the job that they're doing, you don't have the option of calling a competing fire department.

Whereas in a capitalist society, you may have the choice of several different companies to choose from. But if you don't pay, you don't get service.

Some socialism will always be necessary. It's a matter of choosing how much do we want. We need to decide what the balance should be.

[Blueblaze]

As long as there is a country and a government, some degree of socialism will be necessary. The government itself is a socialist entity as is the military, police, fire, post office, social security and all other government entities.

The difference between the two is that a socialist service is always there but you have no choice. If you have a fire in your house, you call the fire department and they come and put out the fire and there is no cost to you. If you don't like the job that they're doing, you don't have the option of calling a competing fire department.

Whereas in a capitalist society, you may have the choice of several different companies to choose from. But if you don't pay, you don't get service.

Some socialism will always be necessary. It's a matter of choosing how much do we want. We need to decide what the balance should be.

Just because we have never lived without socialist infringements on our liberties does not mean it's the only way to live, or even normal. It's only been for the last 150 years since Marx published Das Kapital that stupid socialist leaders have been inflicting them on us, while never learning from the failures.

The great wealth of the modern world is entirely due to the capitalist policies that followed in the United States and Great Britain after the publication of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations". Socialism in America only gained a foothold during the Great Depression, when America's second Socialist President, FDR, attempted to apply more socialism to rectify the failures of the first, Woodrow Wilson. FDR failed to solve the Depression for over 10 years, until WW2 came along and finally forced Wilson's ignorant FED to print the money necessary to end the DE-flation. But FDR got the credit, anyway, and we've been stuck with a socialist government ever since. That doesn't make it either normal or necessary. It just means we're used to it because we've never known better. Read Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" sometime, and learn the truth.

True public services, such as roads, police and fire protection have nothing to do with Socialism. Public services have been provided by all governments since the Roman Empire. The difference is that they benefit ALL citizens regardless of wealth or social standing -- unlike socialist giveaway programs like Social Security and Welfare, that target specific factions in order to buy their votes. But those programs invariably vanish as soon as the Socialists achieve Communism, when the citizens effectively become serfs of the government and there is no longer a need to buy their votes. Serfs work until the day they die. Serfs take what their master gives them, not what they can earn and buy for themselves, through service to the fellow citizens.