Morse family's big-game hunting exploits exposed

[The Shadow]

This answers how the case was made.
Or did the author just make it up?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-the-villages-elk20101114,0,3771174.column?page=1

[redwitch]

midge already put a link to the WHOLE article, not just sections. Plus, parts of this article are grossly inaccurate (it was 4 years of investigation, not 18 months, for a start). Morse's political ties and donations in Florida are totally irrelevant.

Look, most of us agree what was done was heinous and, if found guilty, Morse, Rainey, et al. deserve whatever punishment they get (plus some). So, your point is?

[The Shadow]

midge already put a link to the WHOLE article, not just sections. Plus, parts of this article are grossly inaccurate (it was 4 years of investigation, not 18 months, for a start). Morse's political ties and donations in Florida are totally irrelevant.

Look, most of us agree what was done was heinous and, if found guilty, Morse, Rainey, et al. deserve whatever punishment they get (plus some). So, your point is?

It must be my accent, my one and only point was made in my one and only line I wrote.

This answers how the case was make.

I found it interesting.

I think the law breaking was over 4 years the investigation was 18 months. Does that sound right?

[redwitch]

According to Montana papers, the investigation began 4 years ago; an officer went undercover about 2 years ago. So, no, the article is wrong (no big surprise -- it is a Ritchie piece and integrity and honesty is not her forte). My point was this article was already posted, so why the new post on it? This article doesn't even come close to explaining how the investigation was done. There's no mention that the officer also was guilty of hunting out of season with the Morse/Rainey group. There's no explanation as to why it took so long to bring charges. There is a tremendous amount of "he said" and a lot of emphasis on the Morses' political viewpoints. It is a typical smear of the Morse family, nothing more. Copying just part of it is like copying a cake recipe but forgetting to mention the amount needed of each ingredient and then adding garlic because YOU like garlic.

And do remember I am not a Morse fan. I admire TV and their ability to have it built, including the business acumen required to accomplish this thing of wonder. I do not admire how they run the day-to-day operations and their need to have a finger in every pie in TV. I flat out resent their unwillingness to let other viewpoints into TV -- if it ain't Republican, it has to be behind closed doors and told about after the fact; if it's Republican, it's the Town Squares and non-stop stories in the Sun.

But this smearing of Mark Morse (and trying to taint all of the Morses with these charges -- does anyone even know if Gary Morse hunts?), is getting tiresome. Let's wait until more FACTS (not smears nor praises) are truly known and I'd be seriously hesitant in using the Sentinel as any basis of fact for any Morse/TV issue.

[nkrifats]

Well said Redwitch

[BobKat1]

I think this whole topic needs a few more new threads (as if 4 or 5 aren't enough) - To reach the same conclusion. There won't be any agreement on it.

[Bogie Shooter]

And the new threads should have very clever titles to be sure to capture ones need to look and see.

[Ajack]

This time I actually agree with redwitch. I think shadow has a vendetta.

[The Shadow]

According to Montana papers, the investigation began 4 years ago; an officer went undercover about 2 years ago. So, no, the article is wrong (no big surprise -- it is a Ritchie piece and integrity and honesty is not her forte). My point was this article was already posted, so why the new post on it? I knew that how? This article doesn't even come close to explaining how the investigation was done. There's no mention that the officer also was guilty of hunting out of season with the Morse/Rainey group. There's no explanation as to why it took so long to bring charges. There is a tremendous amount of "he said" and a lot of emphasis on the Morses' political viewpoints. It is a typical smear of the Morse family, nothing more. Copying just part of it is like copying a cake recipe but forgetting to mention the amount needed of each ingredient and then adding garlic because YOU like garlic.

And do remember I am not a Morse fan. I admire TV and their ability to have it built, including the business acumen required to accomplish this thing of wonder. I do not admire how they run the day-to-day operations and their need to have a finger in every pie in TV. I flat out resent their unwillingness to let other viewpoints into TV -- if it ain't Republican, it has to be behind closed doors and told about after the fact; if it's Republican, it's the Town Squares and non-stop stories in the Sun.

But this smearing of Mark Morse (and trying to taint all of the Morses with these charges -- does anyone even know if Gary Morse hunts?), is getting tiresome. Let's wait until more FACTS (not smears nor praises) are truly known and I'd be seriously hesitant in using the Sentinel as any basis of fact for any Morse/TV issue.
When airplanes went into the twin towers which news paper did you believe? Don�t forget no trial has taken place. Who was really responsible?

[The Shadow]

Ignore the content attack the messenger.

[Mikeod]

Ignore the content attack the messenger.


:icon_bored:

[Uptown Girl]

Or, we could ignore the messenger.....

[Ajack]

Or, we could ignore the messenger.....

:thumbup:

[Taj44]

Sorry Ajack, but ignorning the messenger won't make the Morse's troubles go away. I think people are missing the point - this is not about The Villages, its about the Morse's criminal activites and really about the people of Montana. Number one, if a guy can cut corners on getting something as simple as a hunting license, where else has he cut corners?

Number two, the people of Montana have spoken - these were their actual comments:

This man's company is as shady as they come. Anything less than 500 million dollars is a simple slap on the wrist for this man...Its nice to see them do something about poachers...the wildlife of montana belong to the people of montana, not non-resident hunters;...

These people should lose their property and be givin to the people of Montana. These kind of crimes make me sick....... hope those people see their day in court and pay for stealing from the tax payers in Montana...This is a demonstration of the wealthy who believe they are above the law...

...I do not have any problem with people who poach wildgame if they need the meat to feed thier family. In this economy with so many people out of work Montanans should be able to kill a deer to feed their family. But kill a doe and leave the bucks and bulls alone. Shooting animals just for thier horns is b.s.

[Advogado]

It must be my accent, my one and only point was made in my one and only line I wrote.
This answers how the case was make.

I found it interesting.

I think the law breaking was over 4 years the investigation was 18 months. Does that sound right?

Shadow, thanks for posting the link to the Sentinel article. The matter is of interest to Villagers. However, for some reason, the Daily Sun has buried the story.

[nitehawk]

Thank you shadow. As far as waiting for the jury verdict and all the evidence - i really dont know - i thought OJ was guilty - i am leaning toward the Morses as guilty also - - but maybe the Morses will get a really fair trial also

[paradise1]

Redwitch has it right... and besides.. let the courts decide.. and it will most likely be like the others who have not followed the rules... they got fined.

[djl8412]

barf
Here we go again with attacking the reporters! That Lauren Ritchie has got her axe re-sharpened for the Morse family! Is that still the best you folks can do?! Well, I can help you folks out on that. All you have to do is find out who the folks are in Montana that are echoing their displeasure with the Morse clan and you've got some new targets. After all.......there can't be much excitement up there other than bash the Morses.

[The Shadow]

The story is coming to a close, money talks. Nobody is bashing the Morses, it is more like they shot them selves in the foot you might say.

Daughter of Villages executive, 27, pleads guilty to illegal hunt
Mark Morse still faces charges of poaching trophy animals

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-daughter-of-villages-developer-20110518,0,2657073.story

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Thanks for the update, shadow.

Bill

[redwitch]

The fine for Kelsea was the right thing. Jail time would have served no purpose. She was charged with two misdemeanors.

I don't get allowing her to keep her hunting license, though. If hunting was so important to her, she should have followed the rules. Hunting without a license is a big deal. Wounding an animal and not finishing the kill is obscene. Forcing an animal to live with an arrow in it is cruel and inexcusable.

[tony]

I have removed some inappropriate posts from this thread.

Click here for the Montana news story. (http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_c828f42a-9c20-5016-91e4-d5f156bb7139.html)

[nitehawk]

I have removed some inappropriate posts from this thread.

Click here for the Montana news story. (http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_c828f42a-9c20-5016-91e4-d5f156bb7139.html)

Thank You Tony -- Good job

[Advogado]

We are up north for the summer; so our Daily Sun is on vacation hold. What did the Daily Sun have to say about the conviction?

[cabo35]

Reading this thread reminds me of a great line by Claude Rains's Captain Renault in Casablanca. With apologies to the late Mr. Rains and the author of Casablanca, the Villages version might be, "Mr. Morse is being bashed." "Round up the usual suspects."

How sadly predictable.

[chuckster]

My thoughts exactly................totally agree with the quote.

[nitakk]

We are up north for the summer; so our Daily Sun is on vacation hold. What did the Daily Sun have to say about the conviction?

They were going to cover it in depth, as usual; however, Betty Sue's 3rd cousin twice removed who knew someone who knew someone that once met an astronaut bumped it!

[chuckster]

What a great story, lunar travels and all, loved it...........

[graciegirl]

They were going to cover it in depth, as usual; however, Betty Sue's 3rd cousin twice removed who knew someone who knew someone that once met an astronaut bumped it!

Now, now. Don't be pickin' on my favorite newspaper. :wave: I like the good news in the Sun. I can get my bad news other places.

[Whalen]

They were going to cover it in depth, as usual; however, Betty Sue's 3rd cousin twice removed who knew someone who knew someone that once met an astronaut bumped it!


LOL:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

What's political about this post?:confused:

[Advogado]

Reading this thread reminds me of a great line by Claude Rains's Captain Renault in Casablanca. With apologies to the late Mr. Rains and the author of Casablanca, the Villages version might be, "Mr. Morse is being bashed." "Round up the usual suspects."

How sadly predictable.

To further quote Captain Renault, "I am shocked--shocked-- to find" that the Daily Sun has once again abandoned any pretense of journalistic integrity and has buried a story of interest to Villagers because it reflects unfavorably on the Developer.

[Xavier]

To further quote Captain Renault, "I am shocked--shocked-- to find" that the Daily Sun has once again abandoned any pretense of journalistic integrity and has buried a story of interest to Villagers because it reflects unfavorably on the Developer.

Just an observation: I just went through your posting history, not all of them, but enough. You either have a naturally dark disposition or you can't stand the developer and will do anything in your power to show him in a bad light. You aren't jealous of his success are you? I'm sure you can find something nice to say about him and the absolutely wonderful community which is a result of his efforts. No one is perfect. Perhaps you can tell us what changes you would propose to make The Villages an even better place. You know, maybe something productive. :wave:

Like I said, just an observation.

[LELANDJANE]

Amen!

[swimdawg]

Just an observation: I just went through your posting history, not all of them, but enough. You either have a naturally dark disposition or you can't stand the developer and will do anything in your power to show him in a bad light. You aren't jealous of his success are you? I'm sure you can find something nice to say about him and the absolutely wonderful community which is a result of his efforts. No one is perfect. Perhaps you can tell us what changes you would make to The Villages an even better place. You know, maybe something productive. :wave:

Like I said, just an observation.

Hmmmmm.......very interesting.

[redwitch]

Sorry, don't see how this is bashing Gary Morse and his family. The fact is Morse, et al. were charged with various misdemeanors and felonies in Montana. Some have pled out, some have not. I'm not quite sure it is really news in Florida but it certainly is of interest to Villagers and I do believe that the Sun should cover the story -- not headlines, but at least a blurb somewhere as events progress.

And I'm still trying to figure out why Morse is being charged with bigger crimes (possible fines, jail time) than Rainey. From what I've read, Rainey did far worse than any member of the Morse family.

So, where's the bashing?

[Xavier]

Sorry, don't see how this is bashing Gary Morse and his family. The fact is Morse, et al. were charged with various misdemeanors and felonies in Montana. Some have pled out, some have not. I'm not quite sure it is really news in Florida but it certainly is of interest to Villagers and I do believe that the Sun should cover the story -- not headlines, but at least a blurb somewhere as events progress.

And I'm still trying to figure out why Morse is being charged with bigger crimes (possible fines, jail time) than Rainey. From what I've read, Rainey did far worse than any member of the Morse family.

So, where's the bashing?

Red,

If Adolf Schmitt from The Village of Hemmingway was charged with poaching in Wyoming would you expect it to be reported in the Daily Sun or discussed here on TOTV again and again and again? Of course you wouldn't. It just appears to me that many of these posters may want to somehow do additional harm to this particular group of people just because they happen to be connected to development and operation of The Villages. What's the big deal? I'm sure the justice system can take care of it. I choose not to besmirch their reputation any more than that. I feel that if they did the crime, let the law take care of it. Why would I want to rub their nose in it.

That's just my opinion. I could be wrong. I, much like you, don't agree with everything the developer does or doesn't do, but I respect his right to operate in the manner he decides is best for his enterprise. Would I try to occasionally influence his decisions? You can bet on it.

Xavier

[Tbugs]

Xavier,

You are right on this one. You are also right on your observation about Avogado. I mentioned that earlier and got jumped on by several posters. If Mark Morse killed an elk on his own property in Montana, why the heck should it bother us in The Villages?

[redwitch]

If Joe Blow down the street were arrested for poaching locally, it would be in the paper, with name, etc. in the police blotter at the very least. If Joe were arrested in southern Florida or another state, the odds are we wouldn't hear a thing. However, Mark Morse is not Joe Blow. Poaching, whether on his own land or the land of others, is illegal. Leaving carcasses to rot is not only illegal, it is immoral in my mind. The whole thing reeks and does say something about the ethics and morals of the man. That is something we, as Villagers and potential Villagers, have a right to know about. Not to condemn him but simply to help us decide if we want to risk our investment because the man running our development seems to be lacking morally. To me, it goes hand in hand with the IRS issues and the settlement -- it shows a need to be careful when dealing with the man and to take his promises with a very large grain of salt.

If the Sun wants to be considered even remotely as a newspaper and not just a TV PR thing, it needs to report all of the news that pertains to TV, the Villagers and, yes, the developer, not just the pretty stories. Doesn't need to be headlines, doesn't even need to be in the first section, but does need to be reported.

[Xavier]

If Joe Blow down the street were arrested for poaching locally, it would be in the paper, with name, etc. in the police blotter at the very least. If Joe were arrested in southern Florida or another state, the odds are we wouldn't hear a thing. However, Mark Morse is not Joe Blow. Poaching, whether on his own land or the land of others, is illegal. Leaving carcasses to rot is not only illegal, it is immoral in my mind. The whole thing reeks and does say something about the ethics and morals of the man. That is something we, as Villagers and potential Villagers, have a right to know about. Not to condemn him but simply to help us decide if we want to risk our investment because the man running our development seems to be lacking morally. To me, it goes hand in hand with the IRS issues and the settlement -- it shows a need to be careful when dealing with the man and to take his promises with a very large grain of salt.

If the Sun wants to be considered even remotely as a newspaper and not just a TV PR thing, it needs to report all of the news that pertains to TV, the Villagers and, yes, the developer, not just the pretty stories. Doesn't need to be headlines, doesn't even need to be in the first section, but does need to be reported.

Red,

You always take a chance when you try to make a point through a written media. There is no way to insure how the tone comes across. Please know that my tone is casual and conversational.

I have always respected your opinion about most things, but I really must disagree on this matter. You appear to be saying that you want everyone here to sit in judgement, of another human being, beyond what the justice system metes out for something that may or may not have happened in a distant state? And, you may think this is right because he has money, status, influence and has developed where you live. You further appear to think that since he owns a newspaper he should be forced to reveal potentially unfavorable information about himself and his family. He owns the newspaper! Does he tell you how to run your business? Would you listen? You also must believe that, if he chooses, he should not use his newspaper as a TV PR thing. It's his newspaper.

We have options. We can quit subscribing to the Daily Sun. God knows that I, as a tried and true Democrat, dislike the Editorial Section and Opinion Pages. I could sell my house and move out of the Villages if I didn't like the developer. To treat him differently than I would my neighbor is wrong. I can make my own grown up choices and don't feel I need to hurt someone simply because I don't agree with something he allegedly does.

I am a fair minded center leaning liberal just speaking my mind. Oops, can I say that and not be in the Political Thread?

Peace,
Xavier

[Tbugs]

Xavier speaks correctly and to the point.

"We have options. We can quit subscribing to the Daily Sun. God knows that I, as a tried and true Democrat, dislike the Editorial Section and Opinion Pages. I could sell my house and move out of the Villages if I didn't like the developer. To treat him differently than I would my neighbor is wrong. I can make my own grown up choices and don't feel I need to hurt someone simply because I don't agree with something he allegedly does."

Redwitch and others, all of you are adults. You can make your choices. I am not advocating you move out but if you do not like the morals of the Developer and do not trust him with the financial decisions, you are not being forced to stay. You could make a profit on your house most likely if you decided to move - thanks to the Developer (whose morals you do not like). Also, no one is forcing you to buy the Daily Sun. Subscribe to the Orlando paper or any paper you want.

[graciegirl]

I just love to read such reasonable arguments back and forth, without name calling and with respect felt in each line. I am glad I quit political. I like this part of TOTV much better.

Good for you. All of you who recently posted.

[eweissenbach]

If Joe Blow down the street were arrested for poaching locally, it would be in the paper, with name, etc. in the police blotter at the very least. If Joe were arrested in southern Florida or another state, the odds are we wouldn't hear a thing. However, Mark Morse is not Joe Blow. Poaching, whether on his own land or the land of others, is illegal. Leaving carcasses to rot is not only illegal, it is immoral in my mind. The whole thing reeks and does say something about the ethics and morals of the man. That is something we, as Villagers and potential Villagers, have a right to know about. Not to condemn him but simply to help us decide if we want to risk our investment because the man running our development seems to be lacking morally. To me, it goes hand in hand with the IRS issues and the settlement -- it shows a need to be careful when dealing with the man and to take his promises with a very large grain of salt.

If the Sun wants to be considered even remotely as a newspaper and not just a TV PR thing, it needs to report all of the news that pertains to TV, the Villagers and, yes, the developer, not just the pretty stories. Doesn't need to be headlines, doesn't even need to be in the first section, but does need to be reported.

The difference is that Joe Blow would be one of thousands of ordinary citizens who are charged with breaking the law every day. Gary Morse or any member of the Morse family or anyone connected with the Morse family are "celebrities" in central Florida. Celebrity news is, rightly or wrongly, typically covered in detail by the media, while ordinary people may show up in small print on the police blotter. The news of anything happening to the Morse's, good or bad, is and should be a topic of interest in this area and on TOTV, not so that people can bash them, or praise them, but because they are among the most important people in influencing the lives of Villagers, and thus their actions are noteworthy.

As to the point that the Daily Sun should report these things, I would argue that they have no obligation to do so. The Daily Sun is not a newspaper in the traditional sense in my opinion. It is more like a house organ, like the ones produced by the two Fortune 500 companies I worked for, which is unlikely to break bad news about the employer. The Daily Sun is a good sourse of local news, local advertising, and activities in TV. It also offers some national coverage through wire service articles. If you expect them to hire the next Woodward and Bernstien to ferret out any scandalous behavior or unethical dealings of the developer family, you will be left wanting. JMHO

[Challenger]

Xavier speaks correctly and to the point.

"We have options. We can quit subscribing to the Daily Sun. God knows that I, as a tried and true Democrat, dislike the Editorial Section and Opinion Pages. I could sell my house and move out of the Villages if I didn't like the developer. To treat him differently than I would my neighbor is wrong. I can make my own grown up choices and don't feel I need to hurt someone simply because I don't agree with something he allegedly does."

Redwitch and others, all of you are adults. You can make your choices. I am not advocating you move out but if you do not like the morals of the Developer and do not trust him with the financial decisions, you are not being forced to stay. You could make a profit on your house most likely if you decided to move - thanks to the Developer (whose morals you do not like). Also, no one is forcing you to buy the Daily Sun. Subscribe to the Orlando paper or any paper you want.

Well said

[redwitch]

Why is it that when someone does not like what the developer has done, the response is we can move if we don't like it? I love it here. I don't happen to love the developer, but I do appreciate what he has done with building this community. TV as a whole is a great tribute to Schwartz, Gary Morse, Mark Morse and the rest of the family. However, that doesn't mean that I don't want to know if he is ethical, honest, humane, kind to children and animals and so on. The Church on the Square and its entertainment and Morse's willingness to house the entertainers shows not only his business acumen, but his generosity to Villagers. The nature preserves are a thing of beauty and something I do appreciate on a daily basis. The fact that he gets a tax write-off for having them again shows good business acumen. The fact that they are actually well-maintained speaks well of the developer since that is not really necessary for the tax benefits.

Many of the developer's actions are not relevant to my day-to-day life but they are relevant to the overall scheme of TV and whether Morse is willing to make a profit at the cost of cheating others (mainly us). The poaching shows he is willing to skirt the law when it is convenient to him. It implies an arrogance I don't appreciate. The IRS issues also show he is arrogant enough to not listen when suggestions are made that things be changed. The entire Moffitt Center with its web of lies is just wrong to me. The settlement showed he was more than willing to cheat Villagers to line his own pocket. I do believe we need to be informed about these matters, whether from TOTV members, Ms. Ritchie, the Sun, the POA, our neighbors, etc. Yes, some may have an agenda just to besmirch the Morses but I really don't care so long as they get the word out. I'm intelligent enough and enough of an adult to make up my own mind (plus I'm willing to research things further once I hear of something).

As to not subscribing to the Sun, why wouldn't I? I just refuse to call it a newspaper. As was said, it is more of a trade rag for TV than anything else. I do want to know what events are happening in TV. I like reading the comics and Heloise and .... I like the feel of the paper in my hand in the morning. I just want a little more relevant local news. (But, then, I also want a piece of the moon, a Testarosa, enough money so that I never have to work again, to be in perfect health, peace around the world, no starvation or famine anywhere, disease to be eradicated ......)

I stand by that IF the Sun wants to be called a newspaper, then it should carry all of the news -- not just the pretty pieces. If Mark Morse or his wife is caught in bed with someone other than their spouse, I don't care (unless it was forced or a minor) and don't want to know. If Morse is charged with a misdemeanor, I don't care and don't want to know. If Morse is charged with a felony, that's news whether the Sun and Villagers like it or not and I do want to know. I find it comical that the initial arrest of Morse, et al. was finally written up weeks after it occurred while the Sentinel published the story two days after the charges were brought. Like it or not, it is news. If Morse does go to prison, how will it affect the way TV is run, if at all? I honestly have no idea.

[Xavier]

Why is it that when someone does not like what the developer has done, the response is we can move if we don't like it? I love it here. I don't happen to love the developer, but I do appreciate what he has done with building this community. TV as a whole is a great tribute to Schwartz, Gary Morse, Mark Morse and the rest of the family. However, that doesn't mean that I don't want to know if he is ethical, honest, humane, kind to children and animals and so on. The Church on the Square and its entertainment and Morse's willingness to house the entertainers shows not only his business acumen, but his generosity to Villagers. The nature preserves are a thing of beauty and something I do appreciate on a daily basis. The fact that he gets a tax write-off for having them again shows good business acumen. The fact that they are actually well-maintained speaks well of the developer since that is not really necessary for the tax benefits.

Many of the developer's actions are not relevant to my day-to-day life but they are relevant to the overall scheme of TV and whether Morse is willing to make a profit at the cost of cheating others (mainly us). The poaching shows he is willing to skirt the law when it is convenient to him. It implies an arrogance I don't appreciate. The IRS issues also show he is arrogant enough to not listen when suggestions are made that things be changed. The entire Moffitt Center with its web of lies is just wrong to me. The settlement showed he was more than willing to cheat Villagers to line his own pocket. I do believe we need to be informed about these matters, whether from TOTV members, Ms. Ritchie, the Sun, the POA, our neighbors, etc. Yes, some may have an agenda just to besmirch the Morses but I really don't care so long as they get the word out. I'm intelligent enough and enough of an adult to make up my own mind (plus I'm willing to research things further once I hear of something).

As to not subscribing to the Sun, why wouldn't I? I just refuse to call it a newspaper. As was said, it is more of a trade rag for TV than anything else. I do want to know what events are happening in TV. I like reading the comics and Heloise and .... I like the feel of the paper in my hand in the morning. I just want a little more relevant local news. (But, then, I also want a piece of the moon, a Testarosa, enough money so that I never have to work again, to be in perfect health, peace around the world, no starvation or famine anywhere, disease to be eradicated ......)

I stand by that IF the Sun wants to be called a newspaper, then it should carry all of the news -- not just the pretty pieces. If Mark Morse or his wife is caught in bed with someone other than their spouse, I don't care (unless it was forced or a minor) and don't want to know. If Morse is charged with a misdemeanor, I don't care and don't want to know. If Morse is charged with a felony, that's news whether the Sun and Villagers like it or not and I do want to know. I find it comical that the initial arrest of Morse, et al. was finally written up weeks after it occurred while the Sentinel published the story two days after the charges were brought. Like it or not, it is news. If Morse does go to prison, how will it affect the way TV is run, if at all? I honestly have no idea.

In your second paragraph it sounds like you assume that he is guilty.

I guess I view the world differently. Maybe it's my rose-colored glasses! :wave:

Xavier

[Tbugs]

Redwitch,

Very strange, you say, "Many of the developer's actions are not relevant to my day-to-day life but they are relevant to the overall scheme of TV and whether Morse is willing to make a profit at the cost of cheating others (mainly us). The poaching shows he is willing to skirt the law when it is convenient to him. It implies an arrogance I don't appreciate. The IRS issues also show he is arrogant enough to not listen when suggestions are made that things be changed. The entire Moffitt Center with its web of lies is just wrong to me. The settlement showed he was more than willing to cheat Villagers to line his own pocket."

You said Mark Morse is willing to cheat us, is willing to skirt the law when convient to him and is arrogant; the IRS issue shows him to be arrogant; the Moffitt Center is a web of lies; and he is more than willing to cheat Villagers in order to line his own pockets. AND YET you are willing to live in a community run by such a person? You had previously stated, "simply to help us decide if we want to risk our investment because the man running our development seems to be lacking morally.

I do not have any problem with the Morse family. Definitely, I believe that the "poaching" on his own property was a set-up. Lauren Richie is a muckracker with a vendetta against Morse and The Villages.

[eweissenbach]

Redwitch,


You said Mark Morse is willing to cheat us, is willing to skirt the law when convient to him and is arrogant; the IRS issue shows him to be arrogant; the Moffitt Center is a web of lies; and he is more than willing to cheat Villagers in order to line his own pockets. AND YET you are willing to live in a community run by such a person? You had previously stated, "simply to help us decide if we want to risk our investment because the man running our development seems to be lacking morally.

I do not have any problem with the Morse family. Definitely, I believe that the "poaching" on his own property was a set-up. Lauren Richie is a muckracker with a vendetta against Morse and The Villages.

Each of us is entitled to decide whether we have a problem with the Morse family or do not. Each of us is entitled to express our opinion of the Morse family, or anyone else as long as we don't libel them. You "believe" that the "poaching" charge was a set-up. Others believe that they are warrented, and still others believe they are inadequate. We all live in a great country where we are free to "believe" whatever we choose and even express our opinion about it. I have lived in communities where I didn't like or have confidence in the leadership, but have never left a community because of it. Suggesting one should not avail themself of a service, product, or real estate because they find the ethics of the developer of same distasteful seems a bit radical to me. Refusing to acknowledge that someone who did things that you continue to enjoy, could also be lacking in other areas of thier life also seems a bit pollyanna to me. There are many examples of people throughout history who did important and wonderful things, who were less than stellar human beings in other aspects of their life, but we still benefit from the good things they did.

[Talk Host]

Definitely, I believe that the "poaching" on his own property was a set-up. Lauren Richie is a muckracker with a vendetta against Morse and The Villages.

You're suggesting that Lauren Richie set him up? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

[Tbugs]

No, I am not suggesting Mark Morse was set up by Lauren Richie. That came from Montana where they are just trying to make scapegoats of out-of-state big land holders. Go to some of their local papers and you can see what kind of attitudes they have against out-of-state property owners.

[Talk Host]

No, I am not suggesting Mark Morse was set up by Lauren Richie. That came from Montana where they are just trying to make scapegoats of out-of-state big land holders. Go to some of their local papers and you can see what kind of attitudes they have against out-of-state property owners.


It's interesting that you would think that a state in our union would engage in felonious activity by trumping up charges to further their dislike for out of staters. If what you say is true, then there are some high ranking Montana officials who should go to jail. I think it's against the law to deliberately falsify charges against somebody. I could be wrong though. You might be right. But I don't think Lauren Ritichie was complicit in this set up and framing, maybe just the Montana State Government and it's wildlife officers.

It's a funny attitude for them to have since "out of state' hunting licenses is a huge business for them. Kinda like our local cops arresting snowbirds for speeding and crashing stop signs. Gotta keep busy.

[collie1228]

"Real" newspapers have firewalls between the business side, the news side and the editorial side. Do you think for one minute that the New York Times or Washington Post would not run a newsworthy story if it disclosed something unfavorable about its management? I'm no fan of the NYT's politics, but it is a "real" newspaper and I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that its newsroom would always run such a story. Maybe it would be on page 46, but it would be run. The Sun is not a newspaper - it is the developer's tool to sell more property - and it can run whatever it wants. I just don't think anyone should call it a real newspaper.

[BobKat1]

"Real" newspapers have firewalls between the business side, the news side and the editorial side. Do you think for one minute that the New York Times or Washington Post would not run a newsworthy story if it disclosed something unfavorable about its management? I'm no fan of the NYT's politics, but it is a "real" newspaper and I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that its newsroom would always run such a story. Maybe it would be on page 46, but it would be run. The Sun is not a newspaper - it is the developer's tool to sell more property - and it can run whatever it wants. I just don't think anyone should call it a real newspaper.

I think you are correct. As long as one keeps that in mind and doesn't take the publication too seriously, it won't all short of expectations. I enjoy reading The Sun but for news I look elsewhere.

[Pturner]

The difference is that Joe Blow would be one of thousands of ordinary citizens who are charged with breaking the law every day. ... The news of anything happening to the Morse's, good or bad, is and should be a topic of interest in this area and on TOTV, not so that people can bash them, or praise them, but because they are among the most important people in influencing the lives of Villagers, and thus their actions are noteworthy.

As to the point that the Daily Sun should report these things, I would argue that they have no obligation to do so. The Daily Sun is not a newspaper in the traditional sense in my opinion. It is more like a house organ, like the ones produced by the two Fortune 500 companies I worked for, which is unlikely to break bad news about the employer. The Daily Sun is a good sourse of local news, local advertising, and activities in TV. It also offers some national coverage through wire service articles. If you expect them to hire the next Woodward and Bernstien to ferret out any scandalous behavior or unethical dealings of the developer family, you will be left wanting. JMHO

Each of us is entitled to decide whether we have a problem with the Morse family or do not. Each of us is entitled to express our opinion of the Morse family, or anyone else as long as we don't libel them. You "believe" that the "poaching" charge was a set-up. Others believe that they are warrented, and still others believe they are inadequate. We all live in a great country where we are free to "believe" whatever we choose and even express our opinion about it. I have lived in communities where I didn't like or have confidence in the leadership, but have never left a community because of it. Suggesting one should not avail themself of a service, product, or real estate because they find the ethics of the developer of same distasteful seems a bit radical to me. Refusing to acknowledge that someone who did things that you continue to enjoy, could also be lacking in other areas of thier life also seems a bit pollyanna to me. There are many examples of people throughout history who did important and wonderful things, who were less than stellar human beings in other aspects of their life, but we still benefit from the good things they did.

Ed, I agree with you on this issue. Your articulate and well-reasoned posts are always a breath of fresh air.

[Advogado]

Why is it that when someone does not like what the developer has done, the response is we can move if we don't like it? I love it here. I don't happen to love the developer, but I do appreciate what he has done with building this community. TV as a whole is a great tribute to Schwartz, Gary Morse, Mark Morse and the rest of the family. However, that doesn't mean that I don't want to know if he is ethical, honest, humane, kind to children and animals and so on. The Church on the Square and its entertainment and Morse's willingness to house the entertainers shows not only his business acumen, but his generosity to Villagers. The nature preserves are a thing of beauty and something I do appreciate on a daily basis. The fact that he gets a tax write-off for having them again shows good business acumen. The fact that they are actually well-maintained speaks well of the developer since that is not really necessary for the tax benefits.

Many of the developer's actions are not relevant to my day-to-day life but they are relevant to the overall scheme of TV and whether Morse is willing to make a profit at the cost of cheating others (mainly us). The poaching shows he is willing to skirt the law when it is convenient to him. It implies an arrogance I don't appreciate. The IRS issues also show he is arrogant enough to not listen when suggestions are made that things be changed. The entire Moffitt Center with its web of lies is just wrong to me. The settlement showed he was more than willing to cheat Villagers to line his own pocket. I do believe we need to be informed about these matters, whether from TOTV members, Ms. Ritchie, the Sun, the POA, our neighbors, etc. Yes, some may have an agenda just to besmirch the Morses but I really don't care so long as they get the word out. I'm intelligent enough and enough of an adult to make up my own mind (plus I'm willing to research things further once I hear of something).

As to not subscribing to the Sun, why wouldn't I? I just refuse to call it a newspaper. As was said, it is more of a trade rag for TV than anything else. I do want to know what events are happening in TV. I like reading the comics and Heloise and .... I like the feel of the paper in my hand in the morning. I just want a little more relevant local news. (But, then, I also want a piece of the moon, a Testarosa, enough money so that I never have to work again, to be in perfect health, peace around the world, no starvation or famine anywhere, disease to be eradicated ......)

I stand by that IF the Sun wants to be called a newspaper, then it should carry all of the news -- not just the pretty pieces. If Mark Morse or his wife is caught in bed with someone other than their spouse, I don't care (unless it was forced or a minor) and don't want to know. If Morse is charged with a misdemeanor, I don't care and don't want to know. If Morse is charged with a felony, that's news whether the Sun and Villagers like it or not and I do want to know. I find it comical that the initial arrest of Morse, et al. was finally written up weeks after it occurred while the Sentinel published the story two days after the charges were brought. Like it or not, it is news. If Morse does go to prison, how will it affect the way TV is run, if at all? I honestly have no idea.

Exactly.

The Developer has created an absolutely wonderful retirement community and deserves credit for that. However, the structure of the Villages and the great wealth of the Developer gives the Developer huge power over local politics and the lives of the residents. With great wealth and power comes the obligation to act responsibly. (To head off the silly "You're just jealous" criticisms that I have received, I don't begrudge the fact that the Developer has made a lot of money-- I just have concerns about some his actions.)

Some of the Developer's practices (read the details of the IRS allegations and consider the financial fallout of an IRS victory) potentially put the future of this place at risk. Other practices involve the use the Developer's wealth and power in order to abuse the rights of the homeowners (consider, for example, the Developer's establishment and continued subsidization of the Home Owners' Association in order to counter the Property Owners' Association because of the latter's criticism of the Developer).

To those posters who say love everything about The Villages, and shut up if you don't, or leave it, I say: I don't recall anything in my purchase agreement requiring me to turn a blind eye to improper or abusive actions by the Developer.

[Taj44]

Advogado - well said!

[Xavier]

Exactly.

The Developer has created an absolutely wonderful retirement community and deserves credit for that. However, the structure of the Villages and the great wealth of the Developer gives the Developer huge power over local politics and the lives of the residents. With great wealth and power comes the obligation to act responsibly. (To head off the silly "You're just jealous" criticisms that I have received, I don't begrudge the fact that the Developer has made a lot of money-- I just have concerns about some his actions.)

Some of the Developer's practices (read the details of the IRS allegations and consider the financial fallout of an IRS victory) potentially put the future of this place at risk. Other practices involve the use the Developer's wealth and power in order to abuse the rights of the homeowners (consider, for example, the Developer's establishment and continued subsidization of the Home Owners' Association in order to counter the Property Owners' Association because of the latter's criticism of the Developer).

To those posters who say love everything about The Villages, and shut up if you don't, or leave it, I say: I don't recall anything in my purchase agreement requiring me to turn a blind eye to improper or abusive actions by the Developer.

Advogado,

At this time has the developer been convicted of any wrong doing with the IRS? Is there anything legally or morally wrong with his supporting VHA? I personally like having two viewpoints available to us - POA and VHA. Has he been convicted of any crime in Montana? Where is it written that with great wealth and power comes the obligation to act in a particular way? How does that make him different than you or me. WHAT are the improper and abusive actions that the Developer has committed? Is this all factual or a perception? Being charged with something doesn't necessarily make anyone guilty. Generally we let the law take care of that. Why are you treating him differently?

With all due respect, I certainly would be scared to death if you were on a jury of any sort. You obviously are letting your own opinions allow you to make the gigantic leap that you have.

Xavier

[Advogado]

Advogado,



With all due respect, I certainly would be scared to death if you were on a jury of any sort. You obviously are letting your own opinions allow you to make the gigantic leap that you have.

Xavier

Xavier,

I have tried to limit my posts to discussions of the issues and not of the posters themselves, but, "with all due respect" as you put it, I feel that I really have to reply to your latest personal attack.

If I were guilty, I sure would love to have you on my jury.

However, if I were innocent, I would be praying that neither you, nor anybody else with your unique analytical ability, was on my jury.

[redwitch]

As Gracie would say, "Boy, howdy!"

:boom: :BigApplause:

[cabo35]

Exactly.

I say: I don't recall anything in my purchase agreement requiring me to turn a blind eye to improper or abusive actions by the Developer.

Perhaps you will share with us direct, factual evidence of the "improper or abusive actions".... that you tacitly infer.... the developer has actually perpetrated. That way, we can weigh it against the specifics of the lifestyle he has created, the jobs he has created, his contributions to medical care and education in The Villages, his impact overall on the area's economy and the general safety and security we enjoy in comparison to say......Orlando...you know, the Orlando that is home to that other paper embraced by developer critics.

When you submit your list, we can, on balance, make individual comparisons and assessments based on our own experience, biases and prejudices and determine if he has quantitatively done more good then bad as opposed to qualitative and largely subjective opinions that undermine him and the investments of many property owners. My perception, subjective at best, suggests his critics overstate and contrive their bashing of the man and his family for reasons best known themselves.

For the record, I have on occasion been a critic of certain positions the developer has taken but never would classify them, absent facts to the contrary, as "improper and abusive" regarding his stewardship in the management of the Villages.

I hope you take the time to back up your accusations with direct evidence and facts and quantifiable data to support your rather harsh insinuation.

[Xavier]

Xavier,

I have tried to limit my posts to discussions of the issues and not of the posters themselves, but, "with all due respect" as you put it, I feel that I really have to reply to your latest personal attack.

If I were guilty, I sure would love to have you on my jury.

However, if I were innocent, I would be praying that neither you, nor anybody else with your unique analytical ability, was on my jury.

You forgot to answer any of my inquiries. Maybe the answers didn't fit the indictment.

Peace,
Xavier

[redwitch]

Like all men, Mark Morse has his good and bad side. I can't imagine a single person who lives here or who wants to live here that doesn't appreciate what has been conceived by Harold Schwartz, basically created by Gary Morse and expanded upon by Mark Morse. It would be hard to deny Mark Morse's business acumen.

However, there is no question that Villagers were treated shoddily in having to purchase rec centers way over their value; in Paradise Rec Center being allowed to fall into disrepair while paths were built and improved to Spanish Springs; in the way amenity fees have at times been handled; in the nickle and diming of Villagers in general.

There is no question that Mark Morse did settle a lawsuit filed against the developer (meaning MM) by the homeowners north of 466. There is no question that there are some legitimate issues involved with the IRS and that the IRS originally said they would let them slide the first go-round and that rather than fix the issues, Morse, et al. continued with the same tax deductions. There is no question that his wife and daughter have pled guilty to misdemeanor hunting charges in Montana -- charges which Mark Morse has been accused of actively participating in. There is no question Mark Morse has been charged with some pretty serious crimes in Montana that could put him in prison for many years to come (although the odds are he will simply be fined, which is what has happened in previous cases like this). There is no question that he was once quoted as saying that the land for Moffett Center was a donation and then it was discovered that it was anything but. If you look at some of the fees Villagers have been charged for services (such as $3.50/day for their Empty Nest program), it should be difficult to justify these fees and they do smack of greed.

Personally, I do believe Mark Morse is lacking in ethics and morals, at least to some extent. I do believe that if he could get away with it, he would take every dime in the amenity fees and use them for his personal gain, pretty much as he tried to do prior to the 466-north lawsuit.

Again, none of this stops me from appreciating what he has accomplished in The Villages. It does, however, make me want to keep a very wary eye on Mr. Morse and hope that we have enough controls in place to prevent him from taking more than his share.

[Tbugs]

I had never heard of the "Empty Nest Program" so I looked it up. It is a service available through the Villages Rental Property Management division. It ensures your home will be looked at inside and outside weekly to always be in prime condition. Like some posters noted, it is a higher price to pay but most felt it was well worth the cost. Again, it is only for houses in the rental programs - not all property owners like Redwitch suggested.

I suggest closing this thread until the time of Morse's trial in Montana and he is found either guilty or not guilty.

If you want to focus on a trial, there is the ongoing Casey Anthony trial. After all, what is worse - killing an elk on your own property or killing your child?

[cabo35]

Red........I have uncharacteristically omitted copious, detailed response to your assertions in the interest of saving key strokes. Accordingly, you said,

However, there is no question that Villagers were treated shoddily in having to purchase rec centers way over their value; I don't recall a finding against Morse. Was he guilty legally of something. Do those rec centers provide an income stream that was factored into the price?

in Paradise Rec Center being allowed to fall into disrepair while paths were built and improved to Spanish Springs; Has Paradise been repaired? ..... the cartpath improvements are a bad thing....why?

in the way amenity fees have at times been handled; in the nickle and diming of Villagers in general. Who handles the amenity fees? How were they mishandled and how were Villagers nickeled and dimed?

There is no question that Mark Morse did settle a lawsuit filed against the developer (meaning MM) by the homeowners north of 466. Once again, was there a court finding against him? Did everyone walk away from the table happy? I know those that brought the action were happy with their piece of the pie.

There is no question that there are some legitimate issues involved with the IRS and that the IRS originally said they would let them slide the first go-round and that rather than fix the issues, Morse, et al. continued with the same tax deductions. Tax deductions? I thought the matter was over the issue of tax free bonds. The whole subject of taxation, bonding and Community Development Districts nationwide is going through a metamorphosis because there is little precedent to refer to. Ergo..your suggestion of clarity ('no question') seems extreme. .

There is no question that his wife and daughter have pled guilty to misdemeanor hunting charges in Montana. ...you find this "improper and abusive" to Villagers how?

-- charges which Mark Morse has been accused of actively participating in. There is no question Mark Morse has been charged with some pretty serious crimes in Montana that could put him in prison for many years to come (although the odds are he will simply be fined, which is what has happened in previous cases like this). "Accused" would be the working word. Your embellishment about "prison sentencing" is meant to inflame even though you hedge your bet and provide a caveat....just in case .

There is no question that he was once quoted as saying that the land for Moffett Center was a donation and then it was discovered that it was anything but. Have you been made privy to all the contractual agreements between Morse and the medical providers in issue? It seems like everyone is happy and the Villages will be the winner. If I recall, you have some experience in legal matters. Aren't these situations dynamic and changing until the contracts are signed?

If you look at some of the fees Villagers have been charged for services (such as $3.50/day for their Empty Nest program), it should be difficult to justify these fees and they do smack of greed. Are those mandatory fees or options a homeowner can secure if he is willing to pay?

I do believe that if he could get away with it, he would take every dime in the amenity fees and use them for his personal gain, pretty much as he tried to do prior to the 466-north lawsuit. Once again, I assume you are referring to the lawsuit where everyone walked away happy, some happier then others, and there was no finding against the developer.

My point is not to categorically defend the developer. In a word, it is balance. Given the motivation, one can take either side of the issue and "make a case". The true axe grinders and bashers are self evident and you are clearly above that pay grade.

Have a good day Red.

[Xavier]

Red........I have uncharacteristically omitted copious, detailed response to your assertions in the interest of saving key strokes. Accordingly, you said,

However, there is no question that Villagers were treated shoddily in having to purchase rec centers way over their value; I don't recall a finding against Morse. Was he guilty legally of something. Do those rec centers provide an income stream that was factored into the price?

in Paradise Rec Center being allowed to fall into disrepair while paths were built and improved to Spanish Springs; Has Paradise been repaired? ..... the cartpath improvements are a bad thing....why?

in the way amenity fees have at times been handled; in the nickle and diming of Villagers in general. Who handles the amenity fees? How were they mishandled and how were Villagers nickeled and dimed?

There is no question that Mark Morse did settle a lawsuit filed against the developer (meaning MM) by the homeowners north of 466. Once again, was there a court finding against him? Did everyone walk away from the table happy? I know those that brought the action were happy with their piece of the pie.

There is no question that there are some legitimate issues involved with the IRS and that the IRS originally said they would let them slide the first go-round and that rather than fix the issues, Morse, et al. continued with the same tax deductions. Tax deductions? I thought the matter was over the issue of tax free bonds. The whole subject of taxation, bonding and Community Development Districts nationwide is going through a metamorphosis because there is little precedent to refer to. Ergo..your suggestion of clarity ('no question') seems extreme. .

There is no question that his wife and daughter have pled guilty to misdemeanor hunting charges in Montana. ...you find this "improper and abusive" to Villagers how?

-- charges which Mark Morse has been accused of actively participating in. There is no question Mark Morse has been charged with some pretty serious crimes in Montana that could put him in prison for many years to come (although the odds are he will simply be fined, which is what has happened in previous cases like this). "Accused" would be the working word. Your embellishment about "prison sentencing" is meant to inflame even though you hedge your bet and provide a caveat....just in case .

There is no question that he was once quoted as saying that the land for Moffett Center was a donation and then it was discovered that it was anything but. Have you been made privy to all the contractual agreements between Morse and the medical providers in issue? It seems like everyone is happy and the Villages will be the winner. If I recall, you have some experience in legal matters. Aren't these situations dynamic and changing until the contracts are signed?

If you look at some of the fees Villagers have been charged for services (such as $3.50/day for their Empty Nest program), it should be difficult to justify these fees and they do smack of greed. Are those mandatory fees or options a homeowner can secure if he is willing to pay?

I do believe that if he could get away with it, he would take every dime in the amenity fees and use them for his personal gain, pretty much as he tried to do prior to the 466-north lawsuit. Once again, I assume you are referring to the lawsuit where everyone walked away happy, some happier then others, and there was no finding against the developer.

My point is not to categorically defend the developer. In a word, it is balance. Given the motivation, one can take either side of the issue and "make a case". The true axe grinders and bashers are self evident and you are clearly above that pay grade.

Have a good day Red.

cabo35,

We almost never agree on political things, but I couldn't agree more with you on the protection of individual rights. Your response is outstanding and dead on. Thank you for your excellent contribution to this discussion.

Xavier

[Challenger]

Half truths, gossip, conspiracy theories, lack of understanding of the business process, and legal principals are all part of jumping to conclusions and ruining reputations. Thanks to those who have taken the time to point out the weakness in many of the posts expressed here.

I believe that Mark Morse is a flawed human being (as we all are) and should be appropriately dealt with when found responsible by competent authority.I also believe that there are posters who can find a snake under any rock and attribute bad motives to almost any act by Morse. MHO

[bimmertl]

Interesting to allege "everyone walked away happy" from the lawsuit against the developer. Morse settled the case for $47 million. Doubt he was grinning his way to the bank to get the funds.

There was no finding against Morse as he bought his way out of the lawsuit. What he got was a confidentiality agreement from the plaintiffs which kept them silent as to what they discovered during the litigation process.

Most confidentiality agreements cover the settlement amount, which this one didn't. Morse buying his way out ended the discovery process which would have included him producing all his financial records and depositions of he and his management staff.

In order to avoid that becoming public he coughed up the money and bought the confidentiality agreement.

[Xavier]

Interesting to allege "everyone walked away happy" from the lawsuit against the developer. Morse settled the case for $47 million. Doubt he was grinning his way to the bank to get the funds.

There was no finding against Morse as he bought his way out of the lawsuit. What he got was a confidentiality agreement from the plaintiffs which kept them silent as to what they discovered during the litigation process.

Most confidentiality agreements cover the settlement amount, which this one didn't. Morse buying his way out ended the discovery process which would have included him producing all his financial records and depositions of he and his management staff.

In order to avoid that becoming public he coughed up the money and bought the confidentiality agreement.

... and the problem is? Is there a legal point you are trying to make? Everyone walked away satisfied or they wouldn't have signed off. Happens everyday and everywhere. Frees up the court system.

Xavier

[cabo35]

Interesting to allege "everyone walked away happy" from the lawsuit against the developer. Morse settled the case for $47 million. Doubt he was grinning his way to the bank to get the funds.

There was no finding against Morse as he bought his way out of the lawsuit. What he got was a confidentiality agreement from the plaintiffs which kept them silent as to what they discovered during the litigation process.

Most confidentiality agreements cover the settlement amount, which this one didn't. Morse buying his way out ended the discovery process which would have included him producing all his financial records and depositions of he and his management staff.

In order to avoid that becoming public he coughed up the money and bought the confidentiality agreement.

My recollection is that $6,700,000 of the settlement went to the lawyers, $300,000 went to Villages class representatives who filed the suit and the balance was to be paid over 13 years. That would seem to dilute the large numbers you use in your argument. Please feel free to correct any fuzzy math or assumptions I make. Sometimes I can't remember what I had for breakfast.

Notwithstanding your point to the contrary, my concern is that he may well have been "grinning" on the way to the bank. A haunting concern is what motivated the rather quick settlement by the plaintiffs and there attornies.....was it settled in the interest of The Villages or the prospect of a big pay day?

What incentive is there to holdout for a bigger award if the opposition put a $7,000,000 bone on the table for the litigants. If the potential in the discovery process was as great as you suggest.......why wouldn't you be suspicious of the "settlement" as well? A thirteen year payout seems to dilute the large settlement numbers you and others bandy about and suggest was a good deal for Villagers and a stigma to the developer. The 13 year spread factor never seems to be included in your equation. Perhaps because it dilutes the impact of the "big number" and just possibly......Villagers may have been shortchanged at the table. I guess we will never know. Just my opinion.

My apologies for hijacking the Morse/Moose thread.

[NJblue]

Red,

I have seen you complain about what the developer charges for the home watch service. I agree that it is more than I would be willing to pay, but others see value in a more "corporate" presence in their homes and they are willing to pay extra for it. Of course this leaves a high ceiling for entrepreneurs like yourself to under cut them and provide a service. As I see it, it is the free market system at work and all is good. I would think your biggest complaint would be if the developer under-priced his services thus forcing people like yourself out of business.

[Xavier]

Red,

I have seen you complain about what the developer charges for the home watch service. I agree that it is more than I would be willing to pay, but others see value in a more "corporate" presence in their homes and they are willing to pay extra for it. Of course this leaves a high ceiling for entrepreneurs like yourself to under cut them and provide a service. As I see it, it is the free market system at work and all is good. I would think your biggest complaint would be if the developer under-priced his services thus forcing people like yourself out of business.

Am I dreaming or what? Didn't the developer sell the Empty Nest business about a year and a half or two years ago? I swear I saw that someplace.

Ah ha - found it right here: https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23533

Xavier

[Advogado]

My recollection is that $6,700,000 of the settlement went to the lawyers, $300,000 went to Villages class representatives who filed the suit and the balance was to be paid over 13 years. That would seem to dilute the large numbers you use in your argument. Please feel free to correct any fuzzy math or assumptions I make. Sometimes I can't remember what I had for breakfast.

Notwithstanding your point to the contrary, my concern is that he may well have been "grinning" on the way to the bank. A haunting concern is what motivated the rather quick settlement by the plaintiffs and there attornies.....was it settled in the interest of The Villages or the prospect of a big pay day?

What incentive is there to holdout for a bigger award if the opposition put a $7,000,000 bone on the table for the litigants. If the potential in the discovery process was as great as you suggest.......why wouldn't you be suspicious of the "settlement" as well? A thirteen year payout seems to dilute the large settlement numbers you and others bandy about and suggest was a good deal for Villagers and a stigma to the developer. The 13 year spread factor never seems to be included in your equation. Perhaps because it dilutes the impact of the "big number" and just possibly......Villagers may have been shortchanged at the table. I guess we will never know. Just my opinion.

My apologies for hijacking the Morse/Moose thread.

Cabo35,

(As you note in your apology, I guess we have swerved from the original topic of this thread, but everything is kind of connected.)

As I recall, your numbers are basically correct. Furthermore, I share your basic concern that the settlement amount might turn out not to be big enough to continue the amenities system. It certainly will NOT be if the IRS investigation goes totally south. (It is my understanding that the Developer did not disclose the existence of that investigation during the settlement negotiations, and as you know, the Daily Sun, for some reason, did not report on it.)

As I have said in earlier posts, only time will tell if the $40 million settlement received from the Developer, payable over 13 years, is in fact, sufficient to maintain the amenities to which we are contractually entitled. If not, it may, in the future, be necessary to either reopen the matter or initiate another lawsuit-- although the settlement did result in the Developer obtaining a release, which will complicate things. It is just too bad that the Developer's actions necessitated the class action in the first place.

In any event, in my view, we are all better off as a result of the class-action lawsuit than we would have been without it. Our amenities have, in fact, continued, facilities that were falling into disrepair have been repaired, and the cart path has been rebuilt north of 466. In other words, SO FAR the settlement has apparently worked out as intended. We will see what happens in the future-- but SO FAR, life is good.

I personally know most of the lead plaintiffs in the class action suit, and my feeling is that we all owe them a vote of thanks for taking the time and initiative to act on our behalf. I don't think that any of them was motivated by anything other than what they perceived to be in the best interests of the residents.

In regard to the plaintiffs' attorneys' fees, they don't strike me as being outrageously high-- considering the amount recovered, the complexity and difficulty of the case and the possibility that the attorneys would have gotten nothing had they not won. (It is my understanding that this was not a situation in which the Developer simply had an epiphany, rolled over, and voluntarily coughed up the money to continue the amenities at the promised level.) Put in simple terms, if you get me $47 million (even spread over 13 years) to which I am entitled and otherwise am not going to get, I'll give you $6.7 million without batting an eye.

In essence, as a result of the efforts of the plaintiffs in the class-action lawsuit, we residents recovered, from the Developer, $40 million payable over 13 years. Both you and I hope that it is enough to continue the amenities' system. If not, we will all have problems that will have to be addressed.

[tonyafd]

This will probably result in a heavy fine if there is a conviction. The rich don't go to prison in this country.

[graciegirl]

This will probably result in a heavy fine if there is a conviction. The rich don't go to prison in this country.

I keep saying this. If you get up early and work hard and if you do things better than the next person, than in this country it is likely that you will have more money than you need for basic things. If you keep doing it, and don't take much time off and work long hours and cover your squares, it won't be a surprise if you become rich.

There is no shame in being rich. There is shame in breaking laws. But NO shame in being rich.

[downeaster]

I keep saying this. If you get up early and work hard and if you do things better than the next person, than in this country it is likely that you will have more money than you need for basic things. If you keep doing it, and don't take much time off and work long hours and cover your squares, it won't be a surprise if you become rich.

There is no shame in being rich. There is shame in breaking laws. But NO shame in being rich.

I think it was Ella Fitzgerald who said, "I have been poor and I have been rich. Rich is better".

[collie1228]

I have a couple money quotes I like - no idea who originated them, and I certainly don't have them perfect:

Money may not make you happy, but it will at least you'll be miserable in comfort. And money doesn't make you happy, I have 50 million, and I was just as happy when I had 40 million.

[graciegirl]

I think it was Ella Fitzgerald who said, "I have been poor and I have been rich. Rich is better".

I am certainly not rich, but I know some folks that are and they are good, decent people, who I think deserve what they have.

Just sayin'.

[Bill-n-Brillo]

I have a couple money quotes I like - no idea who originated them, and I certainly don't have them perfect:

Money may not make you happy, but it will at least you'll be miserable in comfort. And money doesn't make you happy, I have 50 million, and I was just as happy when I had 40 million.

Here's another one:

Having more money than what you have now is just a higher level of poverty.

Bill :)

[Talk Host]

Happiness cannot buy money. Being poor is a lost less expensive.

[DeafDeaf]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_83704a4c-000d-556a-8075-ef30f0096bdf.html is self-explantory!

[helios]

Thanks for the factual article, reduces the speculation!
Looks like this is more involved than originally stated in newspapers.

[villagegolfer]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_83704a4c-000d-556a-8075-ef30f0096bdf.html is self-explantory!
Yawn..

[meowbunny]

Sounds like a bunch of legal posturing. The article did make one wonder who they were really going after since they offered Mr. Morse a deal.

[bobboberton]

IDK...

So, actually it was the second time the daughter broke the law while hunting. I do not hunt but it seems if hunting were "one of the most important things in her life" she would learn how to practice the sport lawfully and with respect. All this ends up looking like is another wealthy family getting special treatment and proving there are two sets of laws in this country. One for the rich and one for everyone else. One has to ask if this whole story would have turned out different if the Morse family and friends were NOT rich, white, and conservative republicans. I'm just sayin'...

Anyway, it's pretty ironic that the developer of a retirement community addled with all kinds of rules/laws would completely ignore the ones he doesn't agree with in his life. Kinda hypocritical dont'cha think? :undecided:

[graciegirl]

Welcome to the forum Bob. As you may know if you have been reading before you began posting that this is the perfect place to say what you think and how you feel about The Villages.

I hope you will like the forum and The Villages. Do you live here now?

Many of us wonder what the Morses are really like. They have done so much to make it wonderful here I think.

I was taking a friend through two of the rec centers last week and I said to her, "Lift one of those card table chairs". She did and they are REALLY heavy. One had wheels on it, both were deeply padded and comfortable and both were matched to the theme of the beautiful rec center. I said to her, that those card table chairs make me suspect that the Morse family are not just after money. They could have given us regular card table chairs and kept the money. I see evidence of this all over The Villages.

I don't think breaking the law is ever right. I am not a hunter and I am not against hunting or for hunting.

I don't think people who are financially comfortable should ever be "above the law".

I hope you continue posting and find a warm place here on the forum to exchange ideas and listen to ideas. It is a wonderful place for people to learn about The Villages and to meet new friends.

Kindest wishes,
Gracie.

[LELANDJANE]

Thank you, Gracie, for your lovely perspective!

[Challenger]

IDK.. One has to ask if this whole story would have turned out different if the Morse family and friends were NOT rich, white, and conservative republicans. I'm just sayin'...


You are certainly entitled to express your opinion, however, I think it unfortunate that you intimate that justice in this case will be based on race, social status and political preference. If you could corelate your comments with some facts I would be more likely to be pursuaded.

[LivingLarge]

One has to ask if this whole story would have turned out different if the Morse family and friends were NOT rich, white, and conservative republicans.

I think if you read some previous posts on this subject you'll see that many people have said that the treatment they received is very typical for the crime committed. I'm not saying I agree with the punishment but it seems to be handed out uniformly.

[villagegolfer]

You are certainly entitled to express your opinion, however, I think it unfortunate that you intimate that justice in this case will be based on race, social status and political preference. If you could corelate your comments with some facts I would be more likely to be pursuaded.

I agree, I wonder how much reading and investigating was done to come to such opinions.

[sandybill2]

Thank you Gracie for your comments. I agree with everything you stated. The Morse Family has done so much to make our Village life a wonderful one in so many ways.

[Bigben007]

IDK...

So, actually it was the second time the daughter broke the law while hunting. I do not hunt but it seems if hunting were "one of the most important things in her life" she would learn how to practice the sport lawfully and with respect. All this ends up looking like is another wealthy family getting special treatment and proving there are two sets of laws in this country. One for the rich and one for everyone else. One has to ask if this whole story would have turned out different if the Morse family and friends were NOT rich, white, and conservative republicans. I'm just sayin'...

Anyway, it's pretty ironic that the developer of a retirement community addled with all kinds of rules/laws would completely ignore the ones he doesn't agree with in his life. Kinda hypocritical dont'cha think? :undecided:

hmmmm, sounds like class envy to me

[Larry Wilson]

The cases sound like not following the laws to me.

[jojoin]

Don't claim to know what the Morse's are like personally. But, one thing is obvious they are seem to know how to market to retirees (and wannabees). In response to the money they spend on the recreation center card tables, etc., yes everything is really nicely decorated/well coordinated. Not criticizing, but the Morse's are businsess people, and yes the Villages is a beautiful place...but, we the consumer are paying for this. It's not to the Morse's advantage to be cheap on the amenities/decorations, otherwise, we'd go elsewhere. But, this is all built into their profit margin. just sayin...

[MrMark]

Welcome to the forum Bob. As you may know if you have been reading before you began posting that this is the perfect place to say what you think and how you feel about The Villages.

I hope you will like the forum and The Villages. Do you live here now?

Many of us wonder what the Morses are really like. They have done so much to make it wonderful here I think.

I was taking a friend through two of the rec centers last week and I said to her, "Lift one of those card table chairs". She did and they are REALLY heavy. One had wheels on it, both were deeply padded and comfortable and both were matched to the theme of the beautiful rec center. I said to her, that those card table chairs make me suspect that the Morse family are not just after money. They could have given us regular card table chairs and kept the money. I see evidence of this all over The Villages.

I don't think breaking the law is ever right. I am not a hunter and I am not against hunting or for hunting.

I don't think people who are financially comfortable should ever be "above the law".

I hope you continue posting and find a warm place here on the forum to exchange ideas and listen to ideas. It is a wonderful place for people to learn about The Villages and to meet new friends.

Kindest wishes,
Gracie.

Perhaps the following might help to explain the padded tables:

AMENITIES FEE: The amenities fee currently is $135/month and is not related to the CDD payments. It is your "FUN" fee. It pays for the recreation buildings, executive golf courses etc.

[graciegirl]

Bump The Morse poaching issue

[Pturner]

GG, wow. You bumped three old threads today that were critical of the Morses. How come? Just wondering.

[The Great Fumar]

Who cares !!!!!!

[whartonjelly]

let us try harder to catch people doing good things. I need to be lifted up!

[BigLew]

Morse doesn't live in my house so I really don't give a rat's :0000000000luvmyhors

[angiefox10]

Morse doesn't live in my house so I really don't give a rat's :0000000000luvmyhors
A rat's horse head? :confused:

[eweissenbach]

A rat's horse head? :confused:

With valentines coming out of it?

[nitehawk]

Here we go again ---- will all the funny people please log in ---- i just cant wait ----- Ding Dong School :bigbow:

[angiefox10]

Here we go again ---- will all the funny people please log in ---- i just cant wait ----- Ding Dong School :bigbow:


nitehawk, did you call me? *yawn* I was taking a nap. What'd you want?

[Bill-n-Brillo]

:popcorn:

Bill :)

[golf4me]

What?

[graciegirl]

Either GG is bored out of her skull or she's trying for whatever the next level may be. Wish she would at least be more discreet in what she uncovers from the bowels of TOTV. Just a thought.

I explained what I was doing. Trying to show that the same people have the same thing to say about the same subject.

No one ever thinks about the people out there hoping and dreaming to join us and how inflamatory things that aren't proven and repeated half truths dash their hopes. They need to know what is happening and what has been said and by whom so that the next barrage of stuff won't be surprising.

Here we are enjoying this place and I know personally that for four years these same issues keep resurfacing and those that post them are almost gleeful to bash the Morses.

[pauld315]

I am hungry for a nice elk dinner. Anyone seen one ?:beer3::beer3::beer3:

[Challenger]

I explained what I was doing. Trying to show that the same people have the same thing to say about the same subject.

No one ever thinks about the people out there hoping and dreaming to join us and how inflamatory things that aren't proven and repeated half truths dash their hopes. They need to know what is happening and what has been said and by whom so that the next barrage of stuff won't be surprising.

Here we are enjoying this place and I know personally that for four years these same issues keep resurfacing and those that post them are almost gleeful to bash the Morses.

Much of what I read on TOTV is based on rumor and inuendo, laced with some jealousy and gobs of conspiracy theory. It is healty for people to express their opinions which you would hope had some positive coorelation with factual info. I have never met GG and find that the pollyanna effect must be seeping into my brain because I agree very much with her posts.

[Taltarzac725]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/poaching-case-against-wealthy-florida-man-awaits-rulings-by-judges/article_86a1e12d-f881-5736-9a4d-092a10cbe9c7.html

[BobKat1]

I am hungry for a nice elk dinner. Anyone seen one ?:beer3::beer3::beer3:

Maybe at the Elks Club??

[Moderator]

Let's try to stick to the topic of the hunting allegations vs the Morse family.

[Irish Rover]

I have been reading posts on this site since 2007 and been coming to TV for two or three months a year since 2001. Everytime I drive on to the property I feel grateful that the Morse family had the where with all and vision to put TV together. Their private lives are their business and TV is still a work in progress. If I was in their shoes I would also have my finger in all the enterprises that make up TV. We all bought into this thing because of what we saw when we visited - most people after just a short visit bought a lot or a home. Shame on us if we didn't do our due diligence on the founding family or the many quirky by-laws. Enjoy this senior paradise for what it is - if you are living in TV, you're playing the back nine so why dwell on possible negatives - ENJOY. I'm not looking an arguement, this is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.
Happy New Year
Irish