Flood control in The Villages

[Rainger99]

I have always heard and read about how The Villages has a great flood control system where, in the event of a hurricane, they can flood the golf courses and save the houses.

Does anyone know the specifics on this? How much rain can they handle before they are overwhelmed? Would they have been able to handle the 18-24 inches that were forecast? Or would many homes have been flooded?

[Oldragbagger]

The communications we received from them said they were prepared for a 100 year flood event. Not sure how that comes out in inches, but I think we are better off than most in any event.

[Kenswing]

Just a few posts down. Check out the video posted by twoplanekid.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/water-management-system-335597/

[Keefelane66]

I strongly doubt the water management could or would control 18-24 in of rain.
There was a post a while back maybe in Deluna where pumps have been running since July.
The narrative of 100 year weather events are now creating a narrative of 500 year events, there are some serious issues to consider with climate events..

[Rainger99]

Just a few posts down. Check out the video posted by twoplanekid.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/water-management-system-335597/

I just skimmed the video and will watch in full later. Looks very interesting and informative!

He stated that they are designed for 10 inches in 24 hours but during Irma, they got 12-15 inches in 18 hours and they still worked. They outperformed their design.

[coffeebean]

Just a few posts down. Check out the video posted by twoplanekid.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/water-management-system-335597/

The video is a bit over 40 minutes long but the presentation is absolutely FABULOUS!!!!! I recommend it. The storm water management is nothing short of miraculous in this community. The infrastructure is well worth what we pay in bond.

[coffeebean]

I just skimmed the video and will watch in full later. Looks very interesting and informative!

He stated that they are designed for 10 inches in 24 hours but during Irma, they got 12-15 inches in 18 hours and they still worked. They outperformed their design.

Yes, it is very encouraging to know The Villages can handle so much storm water very efficiently.

[JoelJohnson]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

[Marathon Man]

I strongly doubt the water management could or would control 18-24 in of rain.
There was a post a while back maybe in Deluna where pumps have been running since July.
The narrative of 100 year weather events are now creating a narrative of 500 year events, there are some serious issues to consider with climate events..

That was in prep for a repair. Had nothing to do with too much water.

[Bill14564]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power Awas about that long.

Point to someone whose house flooded, that would be a reason to doubt the system. Flooded tunnels and approaches *could* have been due to lack of power to run lift pumps (you write that both resolved at about the same time). And obviously, keeping the power on is not a function of a water management system.

[KAM+6]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

The water management system is not on the historic side. The infrastructure and homes were built in the 60s. Probably above ground wired.

[JoMar]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

Really? Always a troll in these threads. I guess you would bring up the 1906 Earthquake and troll the lack of preparedness if you lived in San Francisco.

[Papa_lecki]

A 100 year storm is a civil engineering thing. Basically means there’s a 1% that a storm (1/100) that size will happen. It is possible for a 100 year storm to happen two years in a row - but the chances are low.
The goal of water management is to keep the water out of the houses, it needs to go someplace, it will go to the golf courses, the tunnels, etc.

My understanding is that very few homes had water intrusion with Irma.

[Taltarzac725]

A 100 year storm is a civil engineering thing. Basically means there’s a 1% that a storm (1/100) that size will happen. It is possible for a 100 year storm to happen two years in a row - but the chances are low.
The goal of water management is to keep the water out of the houses, it needs to go someplace, it will go to the golf courses, the tunnels, etc.

My understanding is that very few homes had water intrusion with Irma..


Sounds correct. Golf courses and tunnels had lots of water.

The big thing we need to be concerned about are the tornadoes. We had one on Groundhog Day that did a lot of damage in 2007.

[Altavia]

I just skimmed the video and will watch in full later. Looks very interesting and informative!

He stated that they are designed for 10 inches in 24 hours but during Irma, they got 12-15 inches in 18 hours and they still worked. They outperformed their design.

As stated, The Villages basin design (storage) can receive 10" in 24 hours; the inlets can remove 7" in 24 hours. So that event was within the design limits of the system.

Ian produced greater than 17" in 24 hr in some areas so we may have seen water in the streets if that materialized here.

This was a 1/1,000 year event for those areas.

[Altavia]

A 100 year storm is a civil engineering thing. Basically means there’s a 1% that a storm (1/100) that size will happen. It is possible for a 100 year storm to happen two years in a row - but the chances are low.

This also means there is a 1/10 chance over 10 years, or a 1/3 chance over the life of a 30 yr mortgage.

[Bilyclub]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

You obviously did not watch the video. There was no code or standards when the historic section was built. Nobody really knows what the system on the other side of 441 was designed to handle. That being said, if your home did not flood the system worked.

[patfla06]

During Irma the water level behind our house was high. We got 16”
and it was scary how high it rose.
During Ian they had begun lowering the water level and we didn’t get
as much rain.

We were very lucky in The Villages.

[coffeebean]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

I watched a video of a presentation about the storm water management system. There were improvements made to the storm management system south of 466. The system south of 466 out performed what was expected of it.

[coffeebean]

The water management system is not on the historic side. The infrastructure and homes were built in the 60s. Probably above ground wired.

There is infrastructure on the Historic side for water management but it is not as good as what was engineered south of 466.

[coffeebean]

As stated, The Villages basin design (storage) can receive 10" in 24 hours; the inlets can remove 7" in 24 hours. So that event was within the design limits of the system.

Ian produced greater than 17" in 24 hr in some areas so we may have seen water in the streets if that materialized here.

This was a 1/1,000 year event for those areas.

The storm water management system is designed to put the excess water in the golf courses and the streets and tunnels. The goal is to keep the water out of the homes. Irma was a great test to the system (south of 466) and it out performed what was designed. The engineers were delighted with the results.

[Battlebasset]

Not sure about the rest of the Villages, but my neighbor's rain gage only showed about 3.5 inches from Ian down in Fenney, so not sure if that was really a test of the system. I know early on Ian was predicted to move right over us, but it went south/east.

That said, I've read great things about the flood management system here, and based on comments from longer term residents, it seems to work fairly well.

[La lamy]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

Yup. They got smarter as they started to build further south.

[Rainger99]

During Irma the water level behind our house was high. We got 16”
and it was scary how high it rose.

It sounds like are on a retention pond.

If so, how far is the water from your house regularly and how close did the water get to your house during Irma? Do you think another inch would have flooded your house?

If you are not on a pond, how much water was in your backyard and how close did the water get to your house?

[defrey12]

I strongly doubt the water management could or would control 18-24 in of rain.
There was a post a while back maybe in Deluna where pumps have been running since July.
The narrative of 100 year weather events are now creating a narrative of 500 year events, there are some serious issues to consider with climate events..

Just to clarify, hurricanes and tornadoes are weather events, NOT climate events. Big difference.

[Altavia]

The storm water management system is designed to put the excess water in the golf courses and the streets and tunnels. The goal is to keep the water out of the homes. Irma was a great test to the system (south of 466) and it out performed what was designed. The engineers were delighted with the results.


Understood and I agree we have probably the best storm water Management system in the world. But at some point with enough rain the system can be overwhelmed.

Based on the information provided, the rain that occurred east of us, now causing record flooding in the St Johns river basin, may have been enough for that to happen in some areas of The Villages.

[MidWestIA]

I saw a article that said there was alot of rain 30 days before IRMA saturating the ground then it got the 10-15 inches

[Altavia]

I saw a article that said there was alot of rain 30 days before IRMA saturating the ground then it got the 10-15 inches

We had a lot of rain this summer. The lakes were there highest I've seen in there years before this event also. They dropped the levels abut a foot the data before Ira.

[JMintzer]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.

True, but they made massive improvements over the past 30+ years...

[Wilson02852]

Appears that you received a lot of "professional" answers on your question. Just wondering how many from engineers that knew or knows the original design parameters and design for various areas of Villages. Same for up grades. My bet not one. Opinions aren't facts and just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it correct. Verify your sources.

[crash]

Their "Water Management" system, didn't do much good during Irma.
Ask anyone on the historic side.
You couldn't cross the golf cart bridge for a week and the power was about that long.
It didn’t work on the historical side because it did not exist when they built that area. It did work the proof is no flooding where it was in place everywhere outside of the historical side.

[JMintzer]

Appears that you received a lot of "professional" answers on your question. Just wondering how many from engineers that knew or knows the original design parameters and design for various areas of Villages. Same for up grades. My bet not one. Opinions aren't facts and just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it correct. Verify your sources.

Appears you didn't watch the "professionals" giving information in the linked video...

[airstreamingypsy]

Really? Always a troll in these threads. I guess you would bring up the 1906 Earthquake and troll the lack of preparedness if you lived in San Francisco.

Facts aren't trolling.......

[rferg40]

I have always heard and read about how The Villages has a great flood control system where, in the event of a hurricane, they can flood the golf courses and save the houses.

Does anyone know the specifics on this? How much rain can they handle before they are overwhelmed? Would they have been able to handle the 18-24 inches that were forecast? Or would many homes have been flooded?

According to a person working at Belle Glade, when Irma came through she dropped 18 inches of rain in that area. The system worked and there was no flooding in the residential areas. The golf courses were flooded. The sprinkler system on the golf course was turned on to reduce the levels of water in the ponds/lakes and ran continuously for 26 hours. I had a house in LaBelle South at the time and there was no flood or wind damage to any of the houses in our neighborhood that I am aware of.

There was some good drone footage of Evans Prairie where the cart path seemed to go into the water and come out the other side about 100 yards away. Much better than seeing that running through our streets and houses.

As is all too familiar, there were those who found a reason to complain and wanted a refund of some of their amenity fee because the could not play some or all of a certain golf courses for two or three weeks. Meanwhile, in Puerto Rico, people had no power for months.

[Vermilion Villager]

A 100 year storm is a civil engineering thing. Basically means there’s a 1% that a storm (1/100) that size will happen. It is possible for a 100 year storm to happen two years in a row - but the chances are low.
The goal of water management is to keep the water out of the houses, it needs to go someplace, it will go to the golf courses, the tunnels, etc.

My understanding is that very few homes had water intrusion with Irma.
You are correct with the addition that a 100 year storm means that there is a 1% chance of it happening "in a given year". It should be noted that Ian was a 1000 year storm meaning there was a 1/10 of a percent chance of it happening in a given year. It's an also be noted that so far in the United States there has been five 1000 year storms. So much for statistics.

[twoplanekid]

Appears that you received a lot of "professional" answers on your question. Just wondering how many from engineers that knew or knows the original design parameters and design for various areas of Villages. Same for up grades. My bet not one. Opinions aren't facts and just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it correct. Verify your sources.

The presenter in this video is a professional who helped design and manage our water systems in the Villages. I know because I am on the NSCUDD board that works with this very knowledgeable consultant, Mr. Arnett.

You are always invited to attend one of our board meetings to ask questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VWL2iYzY-o


Rick Rademacher
NSCUDD Board member
Board of Supervisors (https://www.districtgov.org/yourdistrict/boardmembers.aspx?district=ns)

[nancyre]

The historic section did have flooding issues during Irma

[coffeebean]

I saw a article that said there was alot of rain 30 days before IRMA saturating the ground then it got the 10-15 inches

That is what was said in the presentation. The man who gave the presentation said The Villages had unprecedented conditions with the 30" of rain the previous two months before Irma hit. Our storm water management system handled the rainfall from Irma better than the engineers expected.

[coffeebean]

Appears that you received a lot of "professional" answers on your question. Just wondering how many from engineers that knew or knows the original design parameters and design for various areas of Villages. Same for up grades. My bet not one. Opinions aren't facts and just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it correct. Verify your sources.

My comments are taken from the presentation that was given after Irma. Have you watched the video that was posted bytwoplanekid? I believe the guy giving the presentation is a storm water management professional.

[coffeebean]

~~~

[coffeebean]

The historic section did have flooding issues during Irma

The storm water management system is not the same as what we have south of 466.

[mkjelenbaas]

I have always heard and read about how The Villages has a great flood control system where, in the event of a hurricane, they can flood the golf courses and save the houses.

Does anyone know the specifics on this? How much rain can they handle before they are overwhelmed? Would they have been able to handle the 18-24 inches that were forecast? Or would many homes have been flooded?
What did they (from a reliable source) tell you when you called the district office - and save yourself a lot of wasted tim reading all of the replies - time to be a bit more efficient!!

[Bilyclub]

Appears that you received a lot of "professional" answers on your question. Just wondering how many from engineers that knew or knows the original design parameters and design for various areas of Villages. Same for up grades. My bet not one. Opinions aren't facts and just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it correct. Verify your sources.

Since you didn't read the whole thread before commenting... Here's what the engineer said:

[twoplanekid]

What did they (from a reliable source) tell you when you called the district office - and save yourself a lot of wasted tim reading all of the replies - time to be a bit more efficient!!

View the video recorded by District staff at a storm water management meeting at the Rohan Rec Center that covers in detail storm management in the Villages.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VWL2iYzY-o

If you still have questions or concerns after viewing this video, then attend an NSCUDD board meeting to ask questions. It's as simple as that.

Thanks,

Rick Rademacher
NSCUDD board member

P.S. If there is enough interest, staff might be willing to have another similar storm water management meeting to cover this same material plus the areas south of 44. I believe that Mr. Arnett would be the speaker again.

[Rainger99]

If there is enough interest, staff might be willing to have another similar storm water management meeting to cover this same material plus the areas south of 44. I believe that Mr. Arnett would be the speaker again.

After last week, I am sure that there is enough interest!

[Rainger99]

After Irma, did any people who didn't have flood insurance buy flood insurance? And did any people who had flood insurance, discontinue it?

[midiwiz]

Just a few posts down. Check out the video posted by twoplanekid.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/water-management-system-335597/

interesting and typical, however it's old information. Having worked with civil engineeers for many years this video now describes a system that is actually minimal to possibly undersized. 100 year storms come and go and are becoming more of the norm. Systems typically were designed to 100 yr plus 20% just to cover, however just the fact that there is standing water on golf courses for weeks and they drain them by using sprinklers which further add to the issues (somewhat circular system).

Most of the issues for the older sections is this isn't a permanent solution, it is supposed to be modified and most engineers that I have worked with have that worked into the plan. I don't see that here, nor do I see it as enough for the amount of land that it covers. Considering the volumes I am seeing just prior to Ian - this is a ok solution but it's definitely nothing to be proud of. I've seen far better in this state. I am also glad we didn't get the Ian test on it because y'all be really lighting up the CDD phone lines. I won't hold, but what is that statement I've recently read? oh yes the developer is a billionaire he must be smarter than us...... well it's not showing on the water management especially for the cost we all pay for this thing.

[mkjelenbaas]

I have always heard and read about how The Villages has a great flood control system where, in the event of a hurricane, they can flood the golf courses and save the houses.

Does anyone know the specifics on this? How much rain can they handle before they are overwhelmed? Would they have been able to handle the 18-24 inches that were forecast? Or would many homes have been flooded?
Did you call the respective district office ? Why not get info that may be a bit more accurate versus setting here and reading all the guess work from people probably don’t have reliable info!

[twoplanekid]

interesting and typical, however it's old information. Having worked with civil engineeers for many years this video now describes a system that is actually minimal to possibly undersized. 100 year storms come and go and are becoming more of the norm. Systems typically were designed to 100 yr plus 20% just to cover, however just the fact that there is standing water on golf courses for weeks and they drain them by using sprinklers which further add to the issues (somewhat circular system).

Most of the issues for the older sections is this isn't a permanent solution, it is supposed to be modified and most engineers that I have worked with have that worked into the plan. I don't see that here, nor do I see it as enough for the amount of land that it covers. Considering the volumes I am seeing just prior to Ian - this is a ok solution but it's definitely nothing to be proud of. I've seen far better in this state. I am also glad we didn't get the Ian test on it because y'all be really lighting up the CDD phone lines. I won't hold, but what is that statement I've recently read? oh yes the developer is a billionaire he must be smarter than us...... well it's not showing on the water management especially for the cost we all pay for this thing.

If people are really interested in this issue and feel that their ideas are correct, I encourage them to please take the time to attend a NSCUDD or other CDD meeting to then discuss your thoughts with people who can make changes if needed.

[Bay Kid]

So much thought goes into designing The Villages.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

I handled Flood Claims for over 20 years and I can tell you had Hurricane Ian made landfall in Tampa lots of people living in the Villages would have had water in their home. No area can handle 24 inches of rain. All the homes are on a slab and not elevated.
The ponds would over flow and there would be massive street flooding. Our home is the highest on the street in the front but the back is a different story and if you have a pool it would overflow as well. I would suggest that if you live on a pond you might want to consider flood insurance and also if your street or yard has ever flooded in a heavy rain. The maximum coverage on the dwelling is $250k and on contents it is $100k. That should pretty much cover any damage that you might receive. Flood Insurance is a government program and the cost is the same no matter if you buy it from NFIP or from a carrier like Allstate, State Farm, USAA etc. The cost is based on your Flood Zone and your Elevation. You can obtain both from FEMA or your agent.

[Altavia]

I handled Flood Claims for over 20 years and I can tell you had Hurricane Ian made landfall in Tampa lots of people living in the Villages would have had water in their home. No area can handle 24 inches of rain. All the homes are on a slab and not elevated.
The ponds would over flow and there would be massive street flooding. Our home is the highest on the street in the front but the back is a different story and if you have a pool it would overflow as well. I would suggest that if you live on a pond you might want to consider flood insurance and also if your street or yard has ever flooded in a heavy rain. The maximum coverage on the dwelling is $250k and on contents it is $100k. That should pretty much cover any damage that you might receive. Flood Insurance is a government program and the cost is the same no matter if you buy it from NFIP or from a carrier like Allstate, State Farm, USAA etc. The cost is based on your Flood Zone and your Elevation. You can obtain both from FEMA or your agent.

Thanks to you and Midwiz for confirming my gut feel we were at signification risk of flooding if Irma hit Tampa.

[Altavia]

If people are really interested in this issue and feel that their ideas are correct, I encourage them to please take the time to attend a NSCUDD or other CDD meeting to then discuss your thoughts with people who can make changes if needed.

The question I would ask is what is the maximum amoint of rain in 24 hrs before we would see flooding in the streets backing up to start entering homes.

[tvbound]

The engineering for the water management system in most of TV is well-designed, fantastic and cutting edge, but there is a point where nothing can/will make a difference under a "perfect storm" scenario. Let's just hope we never have to experience - what that point is.

[Bill14564]

I handled Flood Claims for over 20 years and I can tell you had Hurricane Ian made landfall in Tampa lots of people living in the Villages would have had water in their home. No area can handle 24 inches of rain. All the homes are on a slab and not elevated.
The ponds would over flow and there would be massive street flooding. Our home is the highest on the street in the front but the back is a different story and if you have a pool it would overflow as well. I would suggest that if you live on a pond you might want to consider flood insurance and also if your street or yard has ever flooded in a heavy rain. The maximum coverage on the dwelling is $250k and on contents it is $100k. That should pretty much cover any damage that you might receive. Flood Insurance is a government program and the cost is the same no matter if you buy it from NFIP or from a carrier like Allstate, State Farm, USAA etc. The cost is based on your Flood Zone and your Elevation. You can obtain both from FEMA or your agent.

Did Ian drop 24" of rain anywhere? If Irma dropped 15" on the Villages then that was about as much rain reported for Ian anywhere in Florida.

My slab sits about 4" above the surrounding ground. I don't have any higher ground around me and the street is a couple of feet lower. I didn't have flood issues during Irma so I don't think I have a strong need for flood insurance at this time. Homes on ponds or on the bottom end of hillsides or on otherwise lower ground have different considerations.

I've seen concerns about pools before but don't understand. If it rains hard enough and long enough to fill my pool then eventually it will overflow onto my deck. On the other hand, if I didn't have a pool then all that water would have fallen on my deck in the first place. It seems the pool helps a little while it is filling but once it is filled it is no worse than having no pool at all.

I don't know that I need it but on the other hand, the cost for flood insurance for homes not in a flood plane is pretty low. It's a cheap way to get a little peace of mind.

[Altavia]

The 18" for Irma seems overstated, Leeburg reported 7.96"


Hurricane Irma: Rainfall & Flooding | Hurricane Irma (https://learn.weatherstem.com/modules/learn/lessons/167/18.html)

Here are some of the rainfall totals from Hurricane Irma across several locations in the Southeast U.S.:

Jacksonville: 10.01"
Gainesville: 12.94"
Orlando: 7.75"
Tampa: 4.58"
Fort Myers: 11.82"
Miami: 6.96"

Ian reports exceeded 16"

Hurricane Ian: Highest rainfall totals from across Florida | WKBN.com (https://www.wkbn.com/weather/hurricane-ian-highest-rainfall-totals-from-across-florida/amp/)

Seminole County Recorded Rainfall

Location Recorded Rainfall (inches)
2 ESE Lake Mary 16.14″
2.2 W Oviedo 15.13″
Winter Springs 15.11″
Sanford Orlando Airport 15.00″
2.1 N Oviedo 14.96″
0.6 S Winter Springs 14.75″
2 ENE Goldenrod 14.46″
2.3 E Winter Springs 14.33″
1 NE Sanford 14.13″
.9 Chuluota 14.09″
Sanford 13.81″

[Bill14564]

The 18" for Irma seems overstated, Leeburg reported 7.96"


...

My error.

"12 to 15 inches of rainfall in about 18 hours" (slide in post #43 taken from a Villages presentation)

So Irma and Ian were comparable with Ian likely dropping a little (1") more.

[Rainger99]

What happens if The Villages loses power? Does the flood control system work without power?

[JMintzer]

What happens if The Villages loses power? Does the flood control system work without power?

One would think they have generator back-ups...

[coffeebean]

What happens if The Villages loses power? Does the flood control system work without power?

That was my concern but I figure that the system must work on generators if the power goes out. What good is having a system to ward off flooding if the pumps don't work? I hope I'm right on my gut feeling but certainly do not know the answer to that question for sure.

[Bilyclub]

What happens if The Villages loses power? Does the flood control system work without power?

21. Do the pumps have generators?
Yes –either stationary generators or portable generators which are brought on site as the need arises.

3. Are there backup generators? What if we lose power? What if my pump station goes down?
Yes, the District has an array of permanent and mobile generators

From the presentation.

[Altavia]

.

...

I've seen far better in this state.



Curious what storm water Management system you have seen in this state that is better? And how they did so?

(Not challenging, want to learn)

[coffeebean]

21. Do the pumps have generators?
Yes –either stationary generators or portable generators which are brought on site as the need arises.

3. Are there backup generators? What if we lose power? What if my pump station goes down?
Yes, the District has an array of permanent and mobile generators

From the presentation.
I watched the entire presentation and I must have missed that.

[Davonu]

The biggest tool the best drainage systems use is gravity. Pumps only come into play when there are no other options.

[Altavia]

My error.

"12 to 15 inches of rainfall in about 18 hours" (slide in post #43 taken from a Villages presentation)

So Irma and Ian were comparable with Ian likely dropping a little (1") more.

Thanks!

They forecast 12-17"+ here at one point.