Cantata Wait to Get My Electric Vehicle

[Papa_lecki]

A top Florida state official warned Thursday that firefighters have battled a number of fires caused by electric vehicle (EV) batteries waterlogged from Hurricane Ian.

EV batteries that have been waterlogged in the wake of the hurricane are at risk of corrosion, which could lead to unexpected fires, according to Jimmy Patronis, the state's top financial officer and fire marshal.

"There’s a ton of EVs disabled from Ian. As those batteries corrode, fires start," Patronis tweeted Thursday. "That’s a new challenge that our firefighters haven’t faced before. At least on this kind of scale."

[MrFlorida]

Water and electric don't mix well.

[Two Bills]

Water and electric don't mix well.

Bit like oil and water!:icon_wink:

[Babubhat]

[url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-10-06/even-after-100-billion-self-driving-cars-are-going-nowhere]Bloomberg

Even After $100 Billion, Self-Driving Cars Are Going Nowhere. Bloomberg

[retiredguy123]

A top Florida state official warned Thursday that firefighters have battled a number of fires caused by electric vehicle (EV) batteries waterlogged from Hurricane Ian.

EV batteries that have been waterlogged in the wake of the hurricane are at risk of corrosion, which could lead to unexpected fires, according to Jimmy Patronis, the state's top financial officer and fire marshal.

"There’s a ton of EVs disabled from Ian. As those batteries corrode, fires start," Patronis tweeted Thursday. "That’s a new challenge that our firefighters haven’t faced before. At least on this kind of scale."
A ton of EVs would be about half a car.

[coralway]

Don’t forget the marshmallows

[MartinSE]

Personally, I vote for horse-drawn carriages. They will be much more practical during the upcoming Dark Ages v2.0

Sorry, just trying to fit in...

I tried to bite my tongue but couldn't.

I read numerous news articles to find out what was going on. It boils down to one Tesla that caught fire, and a fire department struggled to put it out. There is NO forensic evidence yet as to WHY the battery caught fire. There are only comments by one fire department chief that has NO experience or training on EV batteries and their fires. He did say that there are a lot of Teslas out there and that COULD be a big problem based on nothing.

I will wait for the analysis of what happened and why, but enjoy yourselves it seems any time anything happens that involves an EV most here throw a celebration! Hence my Dark Ages V2.0 refernce.

[Kenswing]

Personally, I vote for horse-drawn carriages. They will be much more practical during the upcoming Dark Ages v2.0

Sorry, just trying to fit in...

You’re not working yourself up to another meltdown are you? lol

[MartinSE]

You’re not working yourself up to another meltdown are you? lol

It could happen, I am pretty sure this thread is not going to hold my attention long enough. There is a big-nothing here.

But I am very concerned I am getting dragged under in a YACCT (yet another climate change thread...LOL

Look at the upside; if I do, you all get a vacation too - from me.

[Byte1]

No "evidence?" You do not mix lithium with water without a volatile reaction. That has been proven. Overheat a lithium battery and see what can happen. Expose lithium to water and see what happens. All my yard equipment is lithium battery powered, but I know a little about what not to do with lithium unless I want to suffer the results.

[MartinSE]

You’re not working yourself up to another meltdown are you? lol

I think I passed that point yesterday in another thread, just waiting to see how the moderators react.

[MartinSE]

No "evidence?" You do not mix lithium with water without a volatile reaction. That has been proven. Overheat a lithium battery and see what can happen. Expose lithium to water and see what happens. All my yard equipment is lithium battery powered, but I know a little about what not to do with lithium unless I want to suffer the results.

All true. My point was, HOW did the battery get wet?

And yes, all mine is DeWalt with their battery system, also. I would not leave it out in the rain, but I would be amazed if the batteries were not water-resistant at least

On the car, some had mentioned corrosion, but that doesn't make sense to me, that it would corrode to the point the water could great to the lithium in a day or two. Something else happened.

Purely guessing like maybe the car had been in an accident and the batteries were damaged, but it was just parked and ignored. I am fairly certain Tesla will want to do a complete analysis and figure out a way to improve the situation.

And I am cynical enough not to rule out it was deliberately set on fire. There is a lot of hate around right now.,

[Byte1]

All true. My point was, HOW did the battery get wet?

And yes, all mine is DeWalt with their battery system, also. I would not leave it out in the rain, but I would be amazed if the batteries were not water-resistant at least

On the car, some had mentioned corrosion, but that doesn't make sense to me, that it would corrode to the point the water could great to the lithium in a day or two. Something else happened.

Purely guessing like maybe the car had been in an accident and the batteries were damaged, but it was just parked and ignored. I am fairly certain Tesla will want to do a complete analysis and figure out a way to improve the situation.

And I am cynical enough not to rule out it was deliberately set on fire. There is a lot of hate around right now.,

But "cynical enough" to consider "it was deliberately set on fire" versus catching fire due to being in a flooded area? Seems like folks that advocate for "science" refuse to acknowledge it when it does not fit their narrative. Just my opinion.

[oldtimes]

All true. My point was, HOW did the battery get wet?

And yes, all mine is DeWalt with their battery system, also. I would not leave it out in the rain, but I would be amazed if the batteries were not water-resistant at least

On the car, some had mentioned corrosion, but that doesn't make sense to me, that it would corrode to the point the water could great to the lithium in a day or two. Something else happened.

Purely guessing like maybe the car had been in an accident and the batteries were damaged, but it was just parked and ignored. I am fairly certain Tesla will want to do a complete analysis and figure out a way to improve the situation.

And I am cynical enough not to rule out it was deliberately set on fire. There is a lot of hate around right now.,

It's not about hate, it's about fact. When an EV catches fire it is nearly impossible to put out. Just google EV fires and you will see. The most recommended method is let it burn.

How to extinguish an electric vehicle fire (https://www.firerescue1.com/electric-vehicles/articles/electric-vehicle-fires-where-the-waiting-game-wins-f934UedqIpVqc1k2/)

[MartinSE]

But "cynical enough" to consider "it was deliberately set on fire" versus catching fire due to being in a flooded area? Seems like folks that advocate for "science" refuse to acknowledge it when it does not fit their narrative. Just my opinion.

So, you say a company making a car that is designed to be exposed to the elements, that will drive through flooded roads, and rain storms and one almost daily, where the water is splashed at serious velocities under the car, off the wheels and basically pressure washes the bottom of the car, will have overlooked the possibility that the batteries made of materials that do a bad thing when they get wet would not have taken that into account.

Who is it that sees what they want to see? If you don't like today's EVs (evidenced by numerous posts), is it not possible you are also looking for what you want to see?

EVs get carboned daily on the roads, charging stations get ICEd daily, almost daily, and certainly weekly videos from Teska security shows people keying the cars.

And you lightly dismiss that maybe someone was angry enough to sabotage a Tesla. Much more likely in your mind that a company selling millions of EVs overlooked that they shouldn't get the batteries wet... The liability there is phenomenal; in a litigious society as we live in, that one fire could cost Telsa billions in litigation if it is proven they were negligent.

But the chances of an ICEr getting away with damaging a car left out in a hurricane and almost 100%.

[Byte1]

So, you say a company making a car that is designed to be exposed to the elements, that will drive through flooded roads, and rain storms and one almost daily, where the water is splashed at serious velocities under the car, off the wheels and basically pressure washes the bottom of the car, will have overlooked the possibility that the batteries made of materials that do a bad thing when they get wet would not have taken that into account.

Who is it that sees what they want to see? If you don't like today's EVs (evidenced by numerous posts), is it not possible you are also looking for what you want to see?

EVs get carboned daily on the roads, charging stations get ICEd daily, almost daily, and certainly weekly videos from Teska security shows people keying the cars.

And you lightly dismiss that maybe someone was angry enough to sabotage a Tesla. Much more likely in your mind that a company selling millions of EVs overlooked that they shouldn't get the batteries wet... The liability there is phenomenal; in a litigious society as we live in, that one fire could cost Telsa billions in litigation if it is proven they were negligent.

But the chances of an ICEr getting away with damaging a car left out in a hurricane and almost 100%.

You know what they say about opinions, right? Like I indicated, it seems like someone can also be cynical enough to believe that someone purposely set fire to the vehicle. Biased opinion, perhaps? There IS evidence that lithium mixed with water is volatile. Is there any evidence that someone set the vehicle on fire?
I believe EVs are an excellent IDEA, but not ready to purchase one until I can see the cost advantage (for me) over a fossil fuel vehicle. Maybe once they develop a viable means to power the EV, and it is reasonable in price for the "average" person, I will consider a purchase. Most likely not within my lifetime, considering I just recently purchased a new fossil fuel burner and will probably not be in the market for replacement for a long time....possibly not in my remaining life. Argue all you wish about how great they are, but lithium is a dangerous element. Gasoline is a dangerous element, but folks have been made aware of the dangers of that fuel and vehicles have been made safer over time. If you submerge a fossil fuel burner in water, it destroys it but it doesn't catch fire and explode. Like I said and I reiterate, EVs are a great concept and will probably be worth having once they solidify their experiment into an affordable and sustainable mode of transportation. I still think they should put more effort into hydrogen fuel cell power. :0000000000luvmyhors :gc:

[MartinSE]

There IS evidence that lithium mixed with water is volatile. Is there any evidence that someone set the vehicle on fire?
:

Nope, I said in my post it was cynical, and I guess it would be unfair of me to ask, "Is there evidence the batteries spontaneously burst into flame?

Both are suppositions, both our opinions.

And, if this were on a street in a poor part of Chicago, would you be as hesitant to think it could have been intentional, Just saying we each see what we want to see.

[JMintzer]

Nope, I said in my post it was cynical, and I guess it would be unfair of me to ask, "Is there evidence the batteries spontaneously burst into flame?

Both are suppositions, both our opinions.

And, if this were on a street in a poor part of Chicago, would you be as hesitant to think it could have been intentional, Just saying we each see what we want to see.

So poor people set fire to EVs? How odd...

[JMintzer]

And I am cynical enough not to rule out it was deliberately set on fire. There is a lot of hate around right now.,

Yes, someone, who knew about the Cat 4-5 Hurricane, hatched a plan to use said hurricane to sabotage Tesla...

[Stu from NYC]

So, you say a company making a car that is designed to be exposed to the elements, that will drive through flooded roads, and rain storms and one almost daily, where the water is splashed at serious velocities under the car, off the wheels and basically pressure washes the bottom of the car, will have overlooked the possibility that the batteries made of materials that do a bad thing when they get wet would not have taken that into account.

Who is it that sees what they want to see? If you don't like today's EVs (evidenced by numerous posts), is it not possible you are also looking for what you want to see?

EVs get carboned daily on the roads, charging stations get ICEd daily, almost daily, and certainly weekly videos from Teska security shows people keying the cars.

And you lightly dismiss that maybe someone was angry enough to sabotage a Tesla. Much more likely in your mind that a company selling millions of EVs overlooked that they shouldn't get the batteries wet... The liability there is phenomenal; in a litigious society as we live in, that one fire could cost Telsa billions in litigation if it is proven they were negligent.

But the chances of an ICEr getting away with damaging a car left out in a hurricane and almost 100%.

Perhaps the anti rust coating only last so long and than water get to places that will cause rust and a fire

[MartinSE]

Perhaps the anti rust coating only last so long and than water get to places that will cause rust and a fire

Good point.

I really wasn't trying to be controversial. Just pointing out that the news coverage left a lot of questions open.

[oldtimes]

Good point.

I really wasn't trying to be controversial. Just pointing out that the news coverage left a lot of questions open.

Perhaps being submerged in salt water

[MartinSE]

Perhaps being submerged in salt water

Good point; I had not thought about it being salt water. Still seems fast to corrode but might be!

[tuccillo]

It is not an experiment. About 5% of new cars sales in the US are EVs and the number is only increasing. By 2030, probably half of all new cars will be EVs. By 2035, many of the major automakers will not be producing gas cars. There is a substantial amount of capital allocated to the construction of new lithium-ion battery factories in the US, and around the world. Regarding affordability, Chevy already announced a $30K Equinox SUV for 2024.

You know what they say about opinions, right? Like I indicated, it seems like someone can also be cynical enough to believe that someone purposely set fire to the vehicle. Biased opinion, perhaps? There IS evidence that lithium mixed with water is volatile. Is there any evidence that someone set the vehicle on fire?
I believe EVs are an excellent IDEA, but not ready to purchase one until I can see the cost advantage (for me) over a fossil fuel vehicle. Maybe once they develop a viable means to power the EV, and it is reasonable in price for the "average" person, I will consider a purchase. Most likely not within my lifetime, considering I just recently purchased a new fossil fuel burner and will probably not be in the market for replacement for a long time....possibly not in my remaining life. Argue all you wish about how great they are, but lithium is a dangerous element. Gasoline is a dangerous element, but folks have been made aware of the dangers of that fuel and vehicles have been made safer over time. If you submerge a fossil fuel burner in water, it destroys it but it doesn't catch fire and explode. Like I said and I reiterate, EVs are a great concept and will probably be worth having once they solidify their experiment into an affordable and sustainable mode of transportation. I still think they should put more effort into hydrogen fuel cell power. :0000000000luvmyhors :gc:

[MartinSE]

It is not an experiment. About 5% of new cars sales in the US are EVs and the number is only increasing. By 2030, probably half of all new cars will be EVs. By 2035, many of the major automakers will not be producing gas cars. There is a substantial amount of capital allocated to the construction of new lithium-ion battery factories in the US, and around the world. Regarding affordability, Chevy already announced a $30K Equinox SUV for 2024.

I thought I just read or heard, GM announced the Bolt would be $28K next year. I may be mis-remembering.

[tuccillo]

I believe you are correct. I believe it is a little small for many applications but certainly makes a good case for a commuter car.

I thought I just read or heard, GM announced the Bolt would be $28K next year. I may be mis-remembering.

[MartinSE]

I believe you are correct. I believe it is a little small for many applications but certainly makes a good case for a commuter car.

The longest drive my wife and I make now are to Gainesville. It would handle that for us.

The shortcoming is it is competing with Tesla FSD because my driving is so impaired now it drives my wife crazy. We really would like FSD, but I am sure at that price point, the Bolt might have supercruise, but not FSD.

It's a waiting game to see what we can get and what is the best deal. Tesla already meets our needs, but we would hate to spend more than we need to because we drive so few miles at this point - at most, maybe 8,000 to 10,000 miles a year.

[Byte1]

Nope, I said in my post it was cynical, and I guess it would be unfair of me to ask, "Is there evidence the batteries spontaneously burst into flame?

Both are suppositions, both our opinions.

And, if this were on a street in a poor part of Chicago, would you be as hesitant to think it could have been intentional, Just saying we each see what we want to see.

Yes, there IS evidence that lithium mixed with water is dangerous. If you REALLY wanted evidence, you could Google it like you do with many other subjects of interest to you. I asked if there was any evidence to support what you said and you admitted that it was just a thought that you had that someone might have sabotaged the car. At least I have science support of my guess.

[Byte1]

The longest drive my wife and I make now are to Gainesville. It would handle that for us.

The shortcoming is it is competing with Tesla FSD because my driving is so impaired now it drives my wife crazy. We really would like FSD, but I am sure at that price point, the Bolt might have supercruise, but not FSD.

It's a waiting game to see what we can get and what is the best deal. Tesla already meets our needs, but we would hate to spend more than we need to because we drive so few miles at this point - at most, maybe 8,000 to 10,000 miles a year.

I drive less than two thousand miles per year right now, but this is not ALL ABOUT ME. Sure an EV might be optimal for me, but those that work for a living might not feel the same way. I have a relative that had to charge his vehicle at work in order to make the trip home, due to the limitation of his EV to make the full round trip on one charge. He swears to this day on the greatness of EVs but no longer owns one. It is not convenient for him now that he travels even further. Like I said earlier, EVs are too limited right now and too expensive for the average worker. It's easy for retirees to sit back and expound on the greatness of new innovations, regardless of cost viability and usefulness in their early development stages. I think that EVs are really interesting, but are not ready yet for the "average" citizen. Just my opinion, of course. I know folks that have hybrids and love them. I have a family member that purchased a hybrid and brags about his mileage. Since I did not want to disenchant him, I did not mention to him that I get the same mileage he claims in the Villages with my fossil fuel burner and better mileage on the highway than he does. Maybe I am a more careful driver? Of course, this is not always the case, but it is just an example of the problem with introducing something new to the "average" citizen possibly before it's ready. I am NOT anti-EV. I am anti- to being pushed/forced into accepting a change in a product that is not an equal or better replacement to a necessity just to please a sector of what I consider to be "elitist thinkers" for lack of a better descriptor. I still consider the EV product to be experimental and would like to see equal research and experimentation on hydrogen power. Of course, hydrogen fuel is likely not as lucrative as manufacturing electrical machinery and battery storage products.

[Bay Kid]

My leaf blower with a lithium battery says do not get wet and to unplug immediately after charging. Also they will be losing charging time the more charged. Scary where to charge and don't forget you plugged it in 4 hours ago. My 4 year old battery blower lost it's use time so it is replaced.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I am anti- to being pushed/forced into accepting a change in a product that is not an equal or better replacement to a necessity just to please a sector of what I consider to be "elitist thinkers" for lack of a better descriptor.

So, before Waste Management started promoting their Waste-to-Energy program, you protested against recycling? I mean - you have to buy two different types of bags and sort all your trash before it gets to the curb, taking up two spots instead of one all week long even if you only had one full bag's worth of stuff to throw away that week.

Did you protest that? No? Why not? It was not an equal or better replacement to a necessity just to please a sector of what you consider to be "elitist thinkers."

[oldtimes]

So, before Waste Management started promoting their Waste-to-Energy program, you protested against recycling? I mean - you have to buy two different types of bags and sort all your trash before it gets to the curb, taking up two spots instead of one all week long even if you only had one full bag's worth of stuff to throw away that week.

Did you protest that? No? Why not? It was not an equal or better replacement to a necessity just to please a sector of what you consider to be "elitist thinkers."

So you are equating taking out the trash to having to buy a very expensive electric vehicle with very many limitations that make it unsuitable for all drivers at this time?

[positiveinlife]

If you buy an EV to save the environment think again. read the articles on the web from unbiased reports about the mining of lithium. Millions of gallons of water are used to drive lithium and other heavy metals to the surface. The result is gross contamination of the ground and nearby water . Also Ev battery packs must have ventilation to dissipate heat. thus they are not water tight.

[shut the front door]

Personally, I vote for horse-drawn carriages. They will be much more practical during the upcoming Dark Ages v2.0

Sorry, just trying to fit in...

I tried to bite my tongue but couldn't.

I read numerous news articles to find out what was going on. It boils down to one Tesla that caught fire, and a fire department struggled to put it out. There is NO forensic evidence yet as to WHY the battery caught fire. There are only comments by one fire department chief that has NO experience or training on EV batteries and their fires. He did say that there are a lot of Teslas out there and that COULD be a big problem based on nothing.

I will wait for the analysis of what happened and why, but enjoy yourselves it seems any time anything happens that involves an EV most here throw a celebration! Hence my Dark Ages V2.0 refernce.

Not sure where you got your 1 Tesla idea. As of 2 days ago, in Collier county alone there were 10.

To put out these very hot fires can take thousands of gallons of water to put out. Tesla’s emergency response guide says between 3,000 to 8,000 gallons of water are necessary to extinguish an EV fire. For gas-powered vehicles, it takes on average around 1,000 gallons of water to put out a fire.

There have been many instances when after a few days the EV will catch on fire a second time. “It takes special training and understanding of EVs to ensure these fires are put out quickly and safely,” Patronis said.

[Byte1]

So, before Waste Management started promoting their Waste-to-Energy program, you protested against recycling? I mean - you have to buy two different types of bags and sort all your trash before it gets to the curb, taking up two spots instead of one all week long even if you only had one full bag's worth of stuff to throw away that week.

Did you protest that? No? Why not? It was not an equal or better replacement to a necessity just to please a sector of what you consider to be "elitist thinkers."

Hmmm, what does recycling have to do with liking or not liking EVs? I have no idea as to the reasoning of changing the recycling method of trash collecting for plain old collecting all trash and burning it, so I cannot speculate on whether or not "elitist thinking" was involved. I am sure that you have all the answers to that and any other question one might have? ;)
I'm not sure if the charge for removing my trash has gone up beyond my means, so I can't tell if only certain folks can afford trash removal.

[tuccillo]

No. EV battery packs, by and large, are liquid cooled, not ventilated. Early Chevy Bolts were an example of the exception and they were pretty much a failure. They are not, however, water tight and shorts may lead to bad outcomes. Just like gas cars, you should keep them out of harm's way otherwise they will wind being totaled.

If you buy an EV to save the environment think again. read the articles on the web from unbiased reports about the mining of lithium. Millions of gallons of water are used to drive lithium and other heavy metals to the surface. The result is gross contamination of the ground and nearby water . Also Ev battery packs must have ventilation to dissipate heat. thus they are not water tight.