New Fire district, Who Benefits.. YUP. You guessed!

[Daddymac]

Try are lying again. This is going to cost you plenty. Your not going to get any better service, But a lot less homes here will have to pay for all the equipment, and salaries READ UP ON THIS..

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES. If your house burns, or another house burns, both will still get the same number of responders and fire trucks no matter how much of a fee has been paid.

There is no cap on the residential fees that will be charged, and they can increase yearly. There is a cap on commercial properties … Guess who that benefits?
There ARE NO NEW SERVICES if the referendum passes!

I am very concerned, and do not like the thought of paying this added tax on top of all the other taxes we already pay…......and based on MARKET value!!

Here is the ARTICLE BELOW
What a fire district means for Villages | News | The Villages Daily Sun | thevillagesdailysun.com (http://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/news/villages/what-a-fire-district-means-for-villages/article_84c30006-f050-11ec-9268-23f9eb91a540.html)

[dewilson58]

The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house.

Fake News.

[Bill14564]

For as long as this thread stays up....

You are paying more than $124 now. You are paying the additional today through your property tax, it just isn't broken out for you to easily see.

You and your neighbor pay different amounts today because you and your neighbor have different taxable values today.

As is clearly stated in the published information on the IFD, taxes are capped at $124 + 0.75 mils + a maximum of an additional 1 mil (0.1 mil is used in the tax estimator).

When I looked at how much of my tax bill goes to fire protection services today and how much is likely to go to the VPSD, I will pay about $150 LESS for fire protection if the IFD passes.

NOTE: The IFD has no control over what the BoCC does. They *should* reduce the tax rate to compensate for the removal of VPSD and SCFD expenses. We'll have to see if that actually happens.

[Daddymac]

Fake News.

Read the article... Here i copied it...

Each parcel will be charged $124. The additional needed funding will be generated with $0.75 cents per $1,000 dollars of relative improvement value (market or ‘just’ value minus land value) in a second tier.

In addition to the ‘Simplified Funding’, The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District will have the legal ability to generate funding via an ad-valorem assessment, or property tax, based on the taxable value of your home.

This is capped at a maximum of $1 dollar for every $1,000 dollars of the assessable value of residential and commercial properties

[dewilson58]

Read the article... Here i copied it...

"It's on the internet so it must be true."

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Daddymac]

Don’t tell me you believe this will happen!!

NOTE: The IFD has no control over what the BoCC does. They *should* reduce the tax rate to compensate for the removal of VPSD and SCFD expenses. We'll have to see if that actually happens.

[Daddymac]

And who wrote this bill???? The RINO

seeking to allow The Villages Public Safety Department and its residents to guide and manage its unique fire and EMS needs for retirees. Rep. Brett Hage, R-Oxford
What is in it for him !!!

[Daddymac]

"It's on the internet so it must be true."

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

And so was the 25% increase to.
Written by the same man, And who Benefits??

[Stu from NYC]

And who wrote this bill???? The RINO

seeking to allow The Villages Public Safety Department and its residents to guide and manage its unique fire and EMS needs for retirees. Rep. Brett Hage, R-Oxford
What is in it for him !!!

His continued employment by the developer?

[Stu from NYC]

Hoping Don Wiley weighs in on this. Not sure how we will vote.

[Bill14564]

Hoping Don Wiley weighs in on this. Not sure how we will vote.

District 5 | Sumter County, FL - Official Website (https://www.sumtercountyfl.gov/163/District-5)

[oldtimes]

Try are lying again. This is going to cost you plenty. Your not going to get any better service, But a lot less homes here will have to pay for all the equipment, and salaries READ UP ON THIS..

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES. If your house burns, or another house burns, both will still get the same number of responders and fire trucks no matter how much of a fee has been paid.

There is no cap on the residential fees that will be charged, and they can increase yearly. There is a cap on commercial properties … Guess who that benefits?
There ARE NO NEW SERVICES if the referendum passes!

I am very concerned, and do not like the thought of paying this added tax on top of all the other taxes we already pay…......and based on MARKET value!!

Here is the ARTICLE BELOW
What a fire district means for Villages | News | The Villages Daily Sun | thevillagesdailysun.com (http://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/news/villages/what-a-fire-district-means-for-villages/article_84c30006-f050-11ec-9268-23f9eb91a540.html)

YUP ...we do

Who benefits from your post?

[Daddymac]

YUP ...we do

Who benefits from your post?

Not me, DONT Shoot the Messenger !!!

[Stu from NYC]

District 5 | Sumter County, FL - Official Website (https://www.sumtercountyfl.gov/163/District-5)

I sent Don an email asking him to weigh in on this. Hope he responds.

[Bill14564]

I sent Don an email asking him to weigh in on this. Hope he responds.

I took the final paragraph as an indication of how he was leaning. But if he responds more directly, please share.

EDIT: It appears that the information has been removed from the link I posted. That's a shame.

[Mrs.Guy]

I sent Don an email asking him to weigh in on this. Hope he responds.

:smiley: He has weighed several times. Did you read his site (from the link Bill14564 provided)? Tells me everything I need to know. Very well researched and shared. IMHO some let their dislike of the Developer cloud their thinking on a subject. Anyone who thinks this will greatly effect their taxes should compare their bill with what the Villages Companies pay in taxes. Last I looked they paid a little more than I paid. :shrug:

[kkingston57]

Who cares? People are complaining about something which will cost no more than $200 a year per household. This is a needed service and is well utilized in TV and other elderly communities.

In meantime we had our road re surfaced in Sumter County and it supposedly is finished and looks worse than it was before. Holes all over the place and many areas where in their was not anything added above the existing surface. Looks like company sprayed on a thick layer of thin asphalt over exisitng rough concrete.

In Sumter county we pay for what we get and it is a 4 letter word starting with an s and ending with a T. People need to be aware of this. Can not expect great service with a low price(taxes)

[BobnBev]

"It's on the internet so it must be true."

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Al Gore said so:bigbow::bigbow: ( And he won 3 purple heart's)

[Papa_lecki]

Who cares? People are complaining about something which will cost no more than $200 a year per household. This is a needed service and is well utilized in TV and other elderly communities.



This

[Goldwingnut]

Interesting set of posts from Frank, ill-informed but interesting none the less. The concept that we're only paying $124/year for fire service is false, the combined fire service budgets for all of Sumter County is nearly $40 million, the $124 raised only about $8.5M of that annually. The rest comes from the general fund that almost everyone pays into. The $124 is called a MSBU, Municipal Service Benefit Unit, what this translates to is every property owner in the county pays as a minimum $124 per year for fire service. Note I used the term "almost everyone", this is because there are a large number of properties throughout the county that pay no Ad-Valorem taxes due to low improved property values and one or more exemptions. The fire services for the county represent about a quarter of the total expenditure annually, take it out of the budget and there is a huge drop in the ad-valorem drop.

To determine the county budget all the planned and expected expenses are added up to figure out what needs to be funded. Next, add up all the funding sources, there are over 70 of these in the Sumter County general fund budget, only then do does it go to the ad-valorem taxes to figure out what the residents will need to pay. The county property appraiser provides a total value of taxable properties in the county and with some basic math the value of one millage point is established. That value is divided into the funding that is required and not provided by other sources to determine the final millage rate on the tax bill. So in this case the fire budget is coming out of the general fund budget reducing the amount to be paid by the millage rate. Yes, the millage rate will decrease, and the new fire tax will be added to the total tax bill. We'll likely not see the full mathematical decrease because other costs are going up (some almost out of control) and ways will have to be found to cut costs to minimize that increase of these expenses.

A little more simple math, both fire districts have similar budgets, about $20M, the combined budgets are paid by all the taxpayers in the county. When (I'm positive on this point) the referendum is approved the fire districts will be paid only by those who live in the district. Here comes the math. About 80% of the population and property values in Sumter County will be serviced by the VPSD IFD, and 20% by the county fire department. The MSBU ($124) will be divided according to this same split instead of the approximate 50/50 that it is now. About 80% of the county will be paying the balance of the VPSD budget and 20% the county FD budget. I've run these numbers a dozen different ways in the last few months and every time they come out as no increase in the total tax bill for Villages residents.

I really love the comments about out of control raising of taxes. Well that may be the way things are done in the democratic union controlled state of New York, but here in the Free State of Florida, we have laws that limit our tax rate changes, we have laws that require a balanced budget every year, we have our Florida Sunshine law that stops officials at the local and county level from having a "good ol' boys club" that stops the pet projects like in days of old and in other states, and most importantly we have free and honest elections where we hold our elected officials accountable.

No, there should be no service changes seen immediately, what changes in the direct accountability and the ability for residents have a direct say in the level of service they want the VPSD to provide. The big thing that changes is the developer's involvement and control, it drops to zero when the referendum is approved. Currently the VCCDD has direct control over the VPSD budget. That goes away when the referendum is approved and the residents are on the board that oversee the budget.

There are a lot of democrats that are upset about the Governor picking the initial board because they will all be Republicans. Get over it, it's one of the benefits of winning an election. Remember what President Obama said, "Elections have consequences", kind sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it...

Let's talk about the "cap" on the fire fee. How many properties does this affect in the IFD, 3 or 4, that's it. If the property is worth twice the $10M cap, $20, we're talking about a boondoggle savings of $7,500 per year on that property. Send me to the poor house on this one. This is a common practice for fire fees to have a cap; why is that? Because as commercial buildings get larger, they have stricter fire and life safety code requirements that help to mitigate the possibilities of fire and its spread, making them a much lower risk than a typical home.

There's a lot of people knit picking this IFD issue over things they don't understand, most, including the POA (yes, I am a member), are wrong on this issue. I've been involved in this issue for over a year and I understand it better than most, as a Villages resident I see this as a win for the residents of The Villages and I have no doubt how I am voting next month.

One last thing to consider, there are about 55 IFDs in Florida that are serving the public need quite well, why wouldn't it work here. Another point to consider, in the Florida legislature, house and senate, a unanimous vote in favor of the IFD was received, Republicans, democrats, and Independents alike all agreed this was right thing to do. How often do we see a unanimous agreement on anything at a state or national level? It must be a pretty special and important thing to get this level of support.

Here's my previous post on this matter that was previously duplicated on the county website. https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/independent-fire-district-cost-impact-information-333737/

[Stu from NYC]

Thank you Don for an excellent explanation.

[dewilson58]

Interesting set of posts from Frank, ill-informed but interesting none the less.

There you go again...............being kind.

[KsJayhawkers]

Your attempt at sarcasm is diminished by your ability to put forthright a debatable comment or actual fact. The OP created a link for you to read the article where he/she is obtaining the information.

[Bilyclub]

A little more simple math, both fire districts have similar budgets, about $20M, the combined budgets are paid by all the taxpayers in the county. When (I'm positive on this point) the referendum is approved the fire districts will be paid only by those who live in the district. Here comes the math. About 80% of the population and property values in Sumter County will be serviced by the VPSD IFD, and 20% by the county fire department. The MSBU ($124) will be divided according to this same split instead of the approximate 50/50 that it is now. About 80% of the county will be paying the balance of the VPSD budget and 20% the county FD budget. I've run these numbers a dozen different ways in the last few months and every time they come out as no increase in the total tax bill for Villages residents.



So the SCFD will be it's own independent fire district and funding will only come from it's district and not the whole county ? If this is true, it would be a game changer.

The informal talk at our pool is a no vote so I'm thinking this is going to be close.

[Bill14564]

So the SCFD will be it's own independent fire district and funding will only come from it's district and not the whole county ? If this is true, it would be a game changer.

The informal talk at our pool is a no vote so I'm thinking this is going to be close.

The projected Sumter County budget for 2024 has removed both the VPSD and SCFD from the general fund and has created a separate fund for the SCFD income and expenses. The VPSD doesn't appear at all since it would fall under the IFD which is completely separate from Sumter County funding.

[NoMo50]

What I don't get is the constant rants by some folks who apparently think the developer is evil, and out to get them at every turn. If folks really feel that way, my question is simple: why do you live here?

[justjim]

"It's on the internet so it must be true."

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Post what you see as the “truth”?

[Bilyclub]

The projected Sumter County budget for 2024 has removed both the VPSD and SCFD from the general fund and has created a separate fund for the SCFD income and expenses. The VPSD doesn't appear at all since it would fall under the IFD which is completely separate from Sumter County funding.

That doesn't address Don Wiley's statement that Village residents would not paying to fund the Sumter County Fire Department if the referendum is passed.

[Bill14564]

That doesn't address Don Wiley's statement that Village residents would not paying to fund the Sumter County Fire Department if the referendum is passed.

Yes, it really does.

By moving the SCFD to a separate fund the BoCC are indicating that a separate source will be found to provide income to that fund. This is likely to be a tax levied on the non-Villagers portion of the county. They *could* include Villagers in that tax but if they were going to do that it would be easier just to leave the SCFD in the General fund.

To be clear, we won't know what is going to happen until the actual 2024 budget is presented next July by the BoCC but at this point it appears Villagers will not be paying for the SCFD.

[dewilson58]

Post what you see as the “truth”?

Thanks for asking jimmy.................taxes and fees are not based on market value of the home.

Hope that helps you.

[Goldwingnut]

So the SCFD will be it's own independent fire district and funding will only come from it's district and not the whole county ? If this is true, it would be a game changer.


It will not be an independent district like vpsd, but the funding will be independent of the general property tax collected from everyone in the county. The funding models will be similar and only drawing funds from the residents each serve, no double taxation.

[ton80]

Don
The basic problem is that nothing is clear on funding. The IFD referendum only applies to the The Villages IFD. Nothing has been stated as to how the SCFD will be funded in clear terms. There are inferences made on what the budget discussions might mean. But there is nothing in clear language from the BOCC or any Sumter County office or Manager. If nothing more becomes clear in written language, I for one will vote NO.

Hopefully someone will make it clear and actionable.

Thank you for your attempts to clarify what may happen. The Villages CDD head and the County administrator need to put out a joint statement defining how the funding and taxes will work. I apologize in advance if I do not have their official titles stated correctly.

[Goldwingnut]

Don
The basic problem is that nothing is clear on funding. The IFD referendum only applies to the The Villages IFD. Nothing has been stated as to how the SCFD will be funded in clear terms. There are inferences made on what the budget discussions might mean. But there is nothing in clear language from the BOCC or any Sumter County office or Manager. If nothing more becomes clear in written language, I for one will vote NO.

Hopefully someone will make it clear and actionable.

Thank you for your attempts to clarify what may happen. The Villages CDD head and the County administrator need to put out a joint statement defining how the funding and taxes will work. I apologize in advance if I do not have their official titles stated correctly.

This is not a BOCC issue to deal with and nothing will be done beyond the current actions taken by the BOCC until 1) the referendum outcome is known and 2) the audit of the SCFD costs is completed. The BOCC has taken the position of not taking a position on the IFD referendum, it is up to the villages residents to decide and the VPSD/District to sell. Every BOCC member has a portion of the villages in their district and is accountable to the entire county for their actions and/or inactions. Of the 5 BOCC members 4 are Villages residents, I know the other 3 of these commissioners to be fair, level headed, untainted, honest, intelligent, and reasonable individuals that will make the right decisions that are in the best interests of all of Sumter County. Have some faith in the leaders you have elected, if they fail you, the ballot box is stronger than a hatchet on the next election day.

[Daddymac]

really love the comments about out of control raising of taxes. Well that may be the way things are done in the democratic union controlled state of New York, but here in the Free State of Florida, we have laws that limit our tax rate changes, we have laws that require a balanced budget every year, we have our Florida Sunshine law that stops officials at the local and county level from having a "good ol' boys club" that stops the pet projects like in days of old and in other states, and most importantly we have free and honest elections where we hold our elected officials accountable.

WELL HOW DID THAT 25% TAX HIKE MAKE IT THROUGH. HMMMM, THE GOOD OL BOYS CLUB..
If this passes you can’t not go back to the old System!!! WE WILL BE TAXED TO DEATH ☠️!!

[Daddymac]

And the “ BUILDER ” Will NEVER get and increase in the Fire Districts Taxes.
READ what is happening. The Good Ol Boys Are Trying To Get In Your House. Don’t let any one BS you..
.
>>From the daily Sun <<<

What can you tell us about costs to the residents to support this; can you please discuss how we would pay for fire and EMS service under an independent special fire district?

Each parcel will be charged $124. The additional needed funding will be generated with $0.75 cents per $1,000 dollars of relative improvement value (market or ‘just’ value minus land value) in a second tier.

In addition to the ‘Simplified Funding’, The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District will have the legal ability to generate funding via an ad-valorem assessment, or property tax, based on the taxable value of your home.

This is capped at a maximum of $1 dollar for every $1,000 dollars of the assessable value of residential and commercial properties.

Under the purview of The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District, these revenue methods will provide enhanced transparency in identifying exactly how much you are paying to fund the services received.

[Bill14564]

And the “ BUILDER ” Will NEVER get and increase in the Fire Districts Taxes.
READ what is happening. The Good Ol Boys Are Trying To Get In Your House. Don’t let any one BS you..
.
>>From the daily Sun <<<

What can you tell us about costs to the residents to support this; can you please discuss how we would pay for fire and EMS service under an independent special fire district?

Each parcel will be charged $124. The additional needed funding will be generated with $0.75 cents per $1,000 dollars of relative improvement value (market or ‘just’ value minus land value) in a second tier.

In addition to the ‘Simplified Funding’, The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District will have the legal ability to generate funding via an ad-valorem assessment, or property tax, based on the taxable value of your home.

This is capped at a maximum of $1 dollar for every $1,000 dollars of the assessable value of residential and commercial properties.

Under the purview of The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District, these revenue methods will provide enhanced transparency in identifying exactly how much you are paying to fund the services received.

Yes, and...?

This is not new at all. This has been published multiple places, written about in these posts, and built into the tax estimator.

[Daddymac]

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES. If your house burns, or another house burns, both will still get the same number of responders and fire trucks no matter how much of a fee has been paid.

There is no cap on the residential fees that will be charged, and they can increase yearly. There is a cap on commercial properties … Guess who that benefits?
There ARE NO NEW SERVICES if the referendum passes!

[Kenswing]

And the “ BUILDER ” Will NEVER get and increase in the Fire Districts Taxes.
READ what is happening. The Good Ol Boys Are Trying To Get In Your House. Don’t let any one BS you..
.
>>From the daily Sun <<<

What can you tell us about costs to the residents to support this; can you please discuss how we would pay for fire and EMS service under an independent special fire district?

Each parcel will be charged $124. The additional needed funding will be generated with $0.75 cents per $1,000 dollars of relative improvement value (market or ‘just’ value minus land value) in a second tier.

In addition to the ‘Simplified Funding’, The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District will have the legal ability to generate funding via an ad-valorem assessment, or property tax, based on the taxable value of your home.

This is capped at a maximum of $1 dollar for every $1,000 dollars of the assessable value of residential and commercial properties.

Under the purview of The Villages Independent Fire Control and Rescue District, these revenue methods will provide enhanced transparency in identifying exactly how much you are paying to fund the services received.
Could you tell us who you are? We know who Don is. Do you hold any public office? Are you an officer with any of the homeowners associations? Simply a concerned citizen? Just trying to determine where you're coming from and how much credibility I should lend to your position.

[Bill14564]

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. ...

You tried that back in post #1. Please see post #3 for a response.

[Goldwingnut]

There is no cap on the residential fees that will be charged, and they can increase yearly. There is a cap on commercial properties … Guess who that benefits?


The cap is on all properties and doesn't distinguish between residential and commercial properties, if a property is worth more than $10M, it is capped. There's no use discussing residential properties being capped because there aren't any anywhere near the value and only a hand full of commercial properties that meet the bar for a cap, and all of these have monitored fire alarms system and are sprinklered which reduce their risk. NFPA 72 mandates many measures in addition to these that help to mitigate fire risks in buildings. Once again, this is a common and normal practice for large commercial buildings to limit fire assessments. The total impact of the cap is a tiny portion of the almost $27M total VPSD budget.

[VIN574]

Thank you, Don. Your detailed explanation (as always) of IFDs and their revenues helped us make our decision.

Best

[oldtimes]

///

[golfing eagles]

The cap is on all properties and doesn't distinguish between residential and commercial properties, if a property is worth more than $10M, it is capped. There's no use discussing residential properties being capped because there aren't any anywhere near the value and only a hand full of commercial properties that meet the bar for a cap, and all of these have monitored fire alarms system and are sprinklered which reduce their risk. NFPA 72 mandates many measures in addition to these that help to mitigate fire risks in buildings. Once again, this is a common and normal practice for large commercial buildings to limit fire assessments. The total impact of the cap is a tiny portion of the almost $27M total VPSD budget.

Now this is getting more confusing. What are the pros and cons of this "new" fire district?

Will TV be getting additional services?
Will the existing services be improved?
Will response time be improved?
Will administrative costs skyrocket?

Then there are 2 financial questions

If I read this correctly, residents will have a $124 flat non-ad valorem tax PLUS additional tax if needed based on assessments and only capped once property is worth over 10 million. This would mean that 2 homes next to each other might pay vastly different amounts for fire protection even though they are receiving the same service. And that sounds awfully like another progressive Robin Hood type tax, which I cannot support.

Secondly, also if I read correctly, the numbers are not yet finalized, so we have no idea what general property tax might be needed to fund the remainder of Sumter County's fire services once TV is split off, which kind of sounds like a pig in a poke.

Don, please correct me if that assessment is in error.

[Bill14564]

Now this is getting more confusing. What are the pros and cons of this "new" fire district?

Will TV be getting additional services?
Will the existing services be improved?
Will response time be improved?
Will administrative costs skyrocket?

Then there are 2 financial questions

If I read this correctly, residents will have a $124 flat non-ad valorem tax PLUS additional tax if needed based on assessments and only capped once property is worth over 10 million. This would mean that 2 homes next to each other might pay vastly different amounts for fire protection even though they are receiving the same service. And that sounds awfully like another progressive Robin Hood type tax, which I cannot support.

Secondly, also if I read correctly, the numbers are not yet finalized, so we have no idea what general property tax might be needed to fund the remainder of Sumter County's fire services once TV is split off, which kind of sounds like a pig in a poke.

Don, please correct me if that assessment is in error.

Your taxing information is incorrect.

[golfing eagles]

Your taxing information is incorrect.

In what way?

[Bill14564]

In what way?

Fire service funding today is $124 plus a portion of your property tax (about 1.65mils). Since property tax is based on taxable value which is different for your home and your neighbor's, you each pay a slightly different amount for fire service today.

(NOTE: 1.65mils covers both VPSD and SCFD. Under the IFD you should only be paying for the VPSD)

IFD funding is $124 + 0.75 mils on improved value + zero to 1 mil on taxable value.
- improved value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- taxable value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- you and your neighbor will pay different amounts but it will be a small difference.

IFD funding is capped at 0.75 mils for the "simplified" tier and 1 mil for the ad-valorem tier. There is a $10M cap on improved value but as Don points out earlier, residential properties won't touch that and only a handful of commercial properties do.


See also:
- Post #3 above
- IFD FAQ sheet on VPSD page
- tax estimator on VPSD page
- Florida bill allowing the IFD
- Referendum for the IFD
- League of Women Voters tax estimator at lwvtrifl.org

[jrref]

Now this is getting more confusing. What are the pros and cons of this "new" fire district?

Secondly, also if I read correctly, the numbers are not yet finalized, so we have no idea what general property tax might be needed to fund the remainder of Sumter County's fire services once TV is split off, which kind of sounds like a pig in a poke.

Don, please correct me if that assessment is in error.

This to me is the biggest unknown. Is there anyway to guarantee that Sumter County will reduce the millage rate if the new system is approved? I can see it now. Next year Sumter says we need "X" amount of money to support their services and we see little to no reduction.

[golfing eagles]

Fire service funding today is $124 plus a portion of your property tax (about 1.65mils). Since property tax is based on taxable value which is different for your home and your neighbor's, you each pay a slightly different amount for fire service today.

(NOTE: 1.65mils covers both VPSD and SCFD. Under the IFD you should only be paying for the VPSD)

IFD funding is $124 + 0.75 mils on improved value + zero to 1 mil on taxable value.
- improved value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- taxable value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- you and your neighbor will pay different amounts but it will be a small difference.

IFD funding is capped at 0.75 mils for the "simplified" tier and 1 mil for the ad-valorem tier. There is a $10M cap on improved value but as Don points out earlier, residential properties won't touch that and only a handful of commercial properties do.


See also:
- Post #3 above
- IFD FAQ sheet on VPSD page
- tax estimator on VPSD page
- Florida bill allowing the IFD
- Referendum for the IFD
- League of Women Voters tax estimator at lwvtrifl.org

Now I'm really confused. You stated I was wrong when I posted that I might be paying more for the same service as my neighbor, essentially a Robin Hood progressive tax, but then made the highlighted statement in response. Is it that a "small" difference IS fair????? How "small"???? If you go to Publix and the person ahead of you on line gets charged $1 for a can of soup, and then you get charged $2 for exactly the same can, is that "fair"?? After all, it's only "a small amount". And finally, would you vote for Publix to charge you the extra dollar???

[Bill14564]

Now I'm really confused. You stated I was wrong when I posted that I might be paying more for the same service as my neighbor, essentially a Robin Hood progressive tax, but then made the highlighted statement in response. Is it that a "small" difference IS fair????? How "small"???? If you go to Publix and the person ahead of you on line gets charged $1 for a can of soup, and then you get charged $2 for exactly the same can, is that "fair"?? After all, it's only "a small amount". And finally, would you vote for Publix to charge you the extra dollar???

You and I may disagree on how much "vastly different" is.

A house with a $450,000 market value and homestead exemption that protected from the recent assessment increase will pay about $300 for the "simplified" tier and at most $300 for the ad-valorem tier for about $725 max.

A house with a $350,000 market value and no homestead exemption might pay something like $250 for the "simplified" tier and at most $270 for the ad-valorem for about $650 max.

To me, about $75 total, as a maximum, is not a "vastly different" amount for houses with a $100,000 difference in market value.

I'm sure you realize that property taxes are based on assessed value today. Is it "fair" that a more expensive home pays higher property taxes than a less expensive home? Is it "fair" that an expensive home with year-round residents might pay less property tax than the home of a snowbird due to the homestead exemptions even though the year-round resident uses more county resources?

More expensive homes pay more in property taxes, that's the way it works. The IFD does not alter this, it just moves the taxes to separate lines. EXCEPT, when you calculate the amount of your property tax that is used for fire protection today, the amount the VPSD would collect from you under the IFD is less.

As for Publix: I believe I *do* pay more at Publix than I pay at Winn-Dixie. I happily accept that because I like the service I get at Publix and I want Publix to stay around. There is no threat of a buyout at the moment, but I'm happy to do my part to ensure the threat doesn't arise in the future.

That statement is not necessarily true for the VPSD. The independence of the VPSD *was* threatened during the ad-hoc committee discussions about ambulance service. The independence of the VPSD *was* questioned during the candidate forums for primary election of the BoCC. Inflation is affecting everyone, including the county, and the fire service is a large part of the county budget. If funds become tight in 2024 I would like to know that consolidating the VPSD and SCFD for cost savings is off the table. The IFD ensures the threat of consolidation cannot arise in the future.

As for the numbers not yet being finalized... of course not. The numbers will be based on assessments and market values as calculated in June or July of next year. The numbers will also be based on the needs of the budget built by the yet-to-be-appointed Supervisors of the yet-to-be-approved IFD. I am basing my decision on the assumption that neither assessments nor the budget will change much. If I'm wrong about assessments I'm protected by the homestead exemptions; if I'm wrong about the budget I'm protected by the caps in the referendum.

[golfing eagles]

You and I may disagree on how much "vastly different" is.

A house with a $450,000 market value and homestead exemption that protected from the recent assessment increase will pay about $300 for the "simplified" tier and at most $300 for the ad-valorem tier for about $725 max.

A house with a $350,000 market value and no homestead exemption might pay something like $250 for the "simplified" tier and at most $270 for the ad-valorem for about $650 max.

To me, about $75 total, as a maximum, is not a "vastly different" amount for houses with a $100,000 difference in market value.

I'm sure you realize that property taxes are based on assessed value today. Is it "fair" that a more expensive home pays higher property taxes than a less expensive home? Is it "fair" that an expensive home with year-round residents might pay less property tax than the home of a snowbird due to the homestead exemptions even though the year-round resident uses more county resources?

More expensive homes pay more in property taxes, that's the way it works. The IFD does not alter this, it just moves the taxes to separate lines. EXCEPT, when you calculate the amount of your property tax that is used for fire protection today, the amount the VPSD would collect from you under the IFD is less.

As for Publix: I believe I *do* pay more at Publix than I pay at Winn-Dixie. I happily accept that because I like the service I get at Publix and I want Publix to stay around. There is no threat of a buyout at the moment, but I'm happy to do my part to ensure the threat doesn't arise in the future.

That statement is not necessarily true for the VPSD. The independence of the VPSD *was* threatened during the ad-hoc committee discussions about ambulance service. The independence of the VPSD *was* questioned during the candidate forums for primary election of the BoCC. Inflation is affecting everyone, including the county, and the fire service is a large part of the county budget. If funds become tight in 2024 I would like to know that consolidating the VPSD and SCFD for cost savings is off the table. The IFD ensures the threat of consolidation cannot arise in the future.

As for the numbers not yet being finalized... of course not. The numbers will be based on assessments and market values as calculated in June or July of next year. The numbers will also be based on the needs of the budget built by the yet-to-be-appointed Supervisors of the yet-to-be-approved IFD. I am basing my decision on the assumption that neither assessments nor the budget will change much. If I'm wrong about assessments I'm protected by the homestead exemptions; if I'm wrong about the budget I'm protected by the caps in the referendum.

Thank you. Just a couple points:

You may pay less for a can of soup at Winn Dixie, but that's not the analogy. You would probably pay less for fire services in Wyoming as well, but that's all apples and oranges. The analogy was paying more for exactly the same thing in exactly the same place and at exactly the same time.

I'm not familiar with the exact calculations, but you give the example of a 350K vs 450K home being $75, the difference being that part of the non ad valorem assessment based on home value. How does that math work if someone is lucky enough to own a home worth 1.5 million???? Does that boost the difference to $800???? Again, I'm just not a fan of so-called "progressive" taxation which is basically another Robin Hood scheme for redistribution. Why not just take the total cost of fire protection, divide it by the number of homes and charge an equal assessment on all, since all are "buying" the same protection?

[Bill14564]

Thank you. Just a couple points:

You may pay less for a can of soup at Winn Dixie, but that's not the analogy. You would probably pay less for fire services in Wyoming as well, but that's all apples and oranges. The analogy was paying more for exactly the same thing in exactly the same place and at exactly the same time.

I'm not familiar with the exact calculations, but you give the example of a 350K vs 450K home being $75, the difference being that part of the non ad valorem assessment based on home value. How does that math work if someone is lucky enough to own a home worth 1.5 million???? Does that boost the difference to $800???? Again, I'm just not a fan of so-called "progressive" taxation which is basically another Robin Hood scheme for redistribution. Why not just take the total cost of fire protection, divide it by the number of homes and charge an equal assessment on all, since all are "buying" the same protection?

If you can give me the address of a $1.5M home I can work the calculations. I don't want to try to guess what the actual numbers might be.

Making it much more simple, we live in the "Robin Hood" system today, approval of the IFD does not change that. We can talk about how we would prefer to pay for fire protection but we have not been given that choice. We have a choice between paying Sumter County and letting them fund the VPSD or we can approve the IFD and fund the VPSD directly.

If we consider the $1.5M and $350K to be assessed values then the property tax paid today is $8,385 and $1,957. If fire protection is $124+1.65mils then the two are paying $2,599 and $702 today.

It does make some sense to charge more for fire protection of a larger home than for a smaller home. More floors, more rooms, more flammables all could require more resources and effort. Does it cost $75 more to protect a home that cost 30% more? I don't know.

A flat fee for fire protection? Great idea but.....
- I suspect it was politically unpopular to suggest raising the $124 to $700.
- The guy in the 1,000 sq ft home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the guy in the $1.5M home
- The guy in the $1.5M home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the owner of the Publix
- That is not the option being offered to us in this referendum


Just a small note: A flat rate is not a "progressive tax," it is generally referred to as a regressive tax. Both the current property tax and the proposed IFD tax are flat rate: everyone pays the same rate, you just pay more if you have a more expensive property. A progressive tax would be like our Federal Income Tax where the rate increases as your income increases.

[golfing eagles]

If you can give me the address of a $1.5M home I can work the calculations. I don't want to try to guess what the actual numbers might be.

Making it much more simple, we live in the "Robin Hood" system today, approval of the IFD does not change that. We can talk about how we would prefer to pay for fire protection but we have not been given that choice. We have a choice between paying Sumter County and letting them fund the VPSD or we can approve the IFD and fund the VPSD directly.

If we consider the $1.5M and $350K to be assessed values then the property tax paid today is $8,385 and $1,957. If fire protection is $124+1.65mils then the two are paying $2,599 and $702 today.

It does make some sense to charge more for fire protection of a larger home than for a smaller home. More floors, more rooms, more flammables all could require more resources and effort. Does it cost $75 more to protect a home that cost 30% more? I don't know.

A flat fee for fire protection? Great idea but.....
- I suspect it was politically unpopular to suggest raising the $124 to $700.
- The guy in the 1,000 sq ft home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the guy in the $1.5M home
- The guy in the $1.5M home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the owner of the Publix
- That is not the option being offered to us in this referendum


Just a small note: A flat rate is not a "progressive tax," it is generally referred to as a regressive tax. Both the current property tax and the proposed IFD tax are flat rate: everyone pays the same rate, you just pay more if you have a more expensive property. A progressive tax would be like our Federal Income Tax where the rate increases as your income increases.

I agree. I wasn’t questioning the reality of punishing the successful by giving their assets to the less successful, I just stated I don’t like it

[Bill14564]

You and I may disagree on how much "vastly different" is.

A house with a $450,000 market value and homestead exemption that protected from the recent assessment increase will pay about $300 for the "simplified" tier and at most $300 for the ad-valorem tier for about $725 max.

....

If you can give me the address of a $1.5M home I can work the calculations. I don't want to try to guess what the actual numbers might be.

...


Found one. $1.6M with no homestead exemption (worst-case example). $880 in "simplified" tier and max of $1,200 in ad-valorem for a total of $2,200.

Roughly three times the taxes ($1,500) for a little more than three times the house. That does sound like a lot of money. But in perspective, the $450K house is paying something like $600 today while the $1.6M house is paying $2,100 today so the relative difference doesn't change at all.

NOTE: The IFD values represent the worst case. The more likely case, with a 0.1mil ad-valorem, brings the IFD values to $450 and $1,100.

[golfing eagles]

Found one. $1.6M with no homestead exemption (worst-case example). $880 in "simplified" tier and max of $1,200 in ad-valorem for a total of $2,200.

Roughly three times the taxes ($1,500) for a little more than three times the house. That does sound like a lot of money. But in perspective, the $450K house is paying something like $600 today while the $1.6M house is paying $2,100 today so the relative difference doesn't change at all.

NOTE: The IFD values represent the worst case. The more likely case, with a 0.1mil ad-valorem, brings the IFD values to $450 and $1,100.

Except.......the cost of maintaining emergency services and actually putting out a fire or responding to a medical emergency is maybe, maybe 2-5% higher for the larger home, yet they get to pay triple. Like I said, Robin Hood.

[Bill14564]

Except.......the cost of maintaining emergency services and actually putting out a fire or responding to a medical emergency is maybe, maybe 2-5% higher for the larger home, yet they get to pay triple. Like I said, Robin Hood.

But...
- Roughly the same ratio as today
- Likely cheaper than today
- Protects against undesirable changes

[Flyers999]

Unfortunately I live in the Marion County so I won't be able to vote for and have my own special IFD, with it's next-US President appointed five member board who can set policies and rates for the next four years. You Sumter County residents are so lucky.
Our area will continue to be covered by the same ole interlocal agreement that's not based on the proposed formula. The fact that we'll be paying less than Sumter County residents for the same services is little consolation.

[Daddymac]

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES.

[Bill14564]

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES.

MISLEADING! See discussion above.

[Kenswing]

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES.
I’m sorry but I have more trust in the credibility of Don Wiley. He’s a County Commissioner who instead of trying to protect his turf by keeping the Fire District under the county umbrella he’s provided his position as a Village’s resident. You have done nothing but regurgitate the same post over and over.

[oldtimes]

I’m sorry but I have more trust in the credibility of Don Wiley. He’s a County Commissioner who instead of trying to protect his turf by keeping the Fire District under the county umbrella he’s provided his position as a Village’s resident. You have done nothing but regurgitate the same post over and over.

I agree. This definitely sounds like some kind of agenda.

[Advogado]

THE PROPOSED VILLAGES FIRE DISTRICT IS A PIG IN A POKE

An article in the October issue of the POA Bulletin contains a good analysis of the proposed Villages Fire District, supporting the POA's recommendation that we vote NO. If you missed reading the article or need to refresh your memory before voting, here is a link: Current Bulletin | POA of The Villages (https://www.poa4us.org/bulletin/) . In addition to the three primary reasons specified in the article, there is another to reason to vote NO on the Fire District: The proponents of the Fire District (Developer-appointed local officials, Developer's employee Representative Hage, and Developer-owned Daily Sun) are asking us, the residents of Sumter County, to buy the proverbial pig in a poke.

Here is what I mean: The proponents of the proposed Fire District, which will be controlled by unelected representatives (presumably designated, or at least approved, by the Developer) for the first four years, have the burden of presenting us with the DETAILS of the proposal. For example:
>What entity currently owns each of the existing fire stations and how much was the Developer paid for those owned by CDD's and under what pricing formula?
>Exactly what assets (including cash) and liabilities of the Villages Public Safety Department will be transferred to the proposed new Fire District?
>How will operations of the new Fire District be financed, particularly during the first four years?
>How will the price of future fire stations purchased by the Fire District from the Developer be determined, particularly during the first four years?
Only the proponents of the Fire District are in a position to give us answers to questions like those, but they have not done so, and the propaganda in the Daily Sun is long on platitudes and short on facts.

In summary, there are a number of reasons not to buy a pig in a poke by voting yes on the Fire District. A NO vote seems even more prudent when one remembers the maxim: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. With the acquisition of the new ambulances, there is no need to try to fix the Villages Public Safety Department, especially when the proposed fix will almost certainly result in an increase in our taxes.