Pit bull attacks pooch in Historic Side of Villages.

[Taltarzac725]

Pit bull attacks in South Africa—a historian sheds light on the issues (https://phys.org/news/2022-12-pit-bull-south-africaa-historian.html)

I saw the news on the other Villages news site. Sad. Dog dies after vicious attack by pit bull on Historic Side of The Villages





















Last year, my pooch had been bitten by a pit bull looking dog at the dog park on his paw but thankfully the dog had not closed its jaws. And the owner was right there to get the dog off of Beau.

I have encountered many very gentle pit bull or pit bull mixes here in the Villages though.

It is often an owner that does not seem to know how to control the dog or does not even seem to know the dog's history.

When we lived in Palm Harbor we lived next door to a man who was training pit bulls but mishandled it so badly he brought down the Humane Society as well as the news media down on him and probably the police as well. The dogs seemed very nice though. It was the owner/trainer that was the problem.

[village dreamer]

when you say , pitbull it doesn't end well.its the few that we hear about.

[Taltarzac725]

when you say , pitbull it doesn't end well.its the few that we hear about.

There was a sweet pit bull named Jade at the dog park years ago but after it started playing regularly with the boxer like pooch named Harlow at the dog park it seemed to get more and more aggressive.

Eventually the dog park owners banned both dogs. And I would before that just avoid the area of the park the dogs' owners were.

[tophcfa]

My heart goes out to the poor folks who lost their dog in such a terribly way.

[ThirdOfFive]

My brother had a pit bull. It was the sweetest, most even-tempered dog ever.

Right up to the time it attacked his daughter.

You can't blame the dog. A pit bull is what it is. And what it is, is a dog bred to be aggressive; bull-baiting and dog fighting primarily, with a powerful bite strength of 235 psi. But when they bite they don't just bite. They tear. They hang on and rip. That is why a pit bull attack can be the most damaging of any dog, even dogs twice it's size.

Statistics bear out the danger of this breed. In the time-period 2005 - 2017, dog attacks killed 433 Americans. 284 of these deaths were by pit bulls. Rottweilers came in at #2, responsible for 10.4% of the deaths. That is two-thirds of all deaths from dog attacks in America--by a breed that numbers-wise makes up barely 6% of the canine population in this country (International Dog Day 2020 website). Pit bulls lead heavily in the number of reported attacks as well, with 3,397 attacks in the time-period compared to 535 by rottweilers.

Not all pit bulls are dangerous. But far too many times, a trusted family pet turns killer, with the most unsettling statistic being that fully 25% of pit bull fatalities are of children 0-2. My niece was lucky: her father was in the house at the time, interrupted the attack and the pit bull met it's maker a few minutes later courtesy of a .357 magnum bullet to the head. But not all children are so lucky.

Many countries ban pit bulls totally. In America a lot of home insurers won't insure your home if you own a pit bull.

Maybe it's time we looked at banning them too.

[Stu4206]

I saw the news on the other Villages news site.Dog dies after vicious attack by pit bull on Historic Side of The Villages

Can you post a link please?

[bsloan1960]

Pit bull attacks in South Africa—a historian sheds light on the issues (https://phys.org/news/2022-12-pit-bull-south-africaa-historian.html)

I saw the news on the other Villages news site. Sad. Dog dies after vicious attack by pit bull on Historic Side of The Villages























Last year, my pooch had been bitten by a pit bull looking dog at the dog park on his paw but thankfully the dog had not closed its jaws. And the owner was right there to get the dog off of Beau.

I have encountered many very gentle pit bull or pit bull mixes here in the Villages though.

It is often an owner that does not seem to know how to control the dog or does not even seem to know the dog's history.

When we lived in Palm Harbor we lived next door to a man who was training pit bulls but mishandled it so badly he brought down the Humane Society as well as the news media down on him and probably the police as well. The dogs seemed very nice though. It was the owner/trainer that was the problem.
Pit Bulls top the statistical lists as the #1 killer of people every year. But trying to get people to believe this fact is like trying to convince anti-vaxers to get a shot. They will always say things like, "They always misidentify the breed", "There are no bad Pit Bulls- only bad owners". "I've owned Pit Bulls my whole life and they are gentle". The deeply rooted denial of facts in the face of solid, repeating statistics boggles the mind. Go ahead- do a Google search ("Google is flawed", "The American Kennel Club's statistics are wrong")

[Caymus]

Will the pit pull owner face any penalties? I assume at least a civil lawsuit to recover losses.

[BrianL99]

My brother had a pit bull. It was the sweetest, most even-tempered dog ever.

Right up to the time it attacked his daughter.




Many countries ban pit bulls totally. In America a lot of home insurers won't insure your home if you own a pit bull.

Maybe it's time we looked at banning them too.


I agree with you, 100%. That said, I believe Florida has a law that prohibits municipalities from banning a specific breed of dog.

[Nucky]

I'm not certain if things have changed in the 6 1/2 years we've been here but when we did purchase our first home in the Historic Section we were told by The Villages Insurance that several breeds of dogs were not allowed to be on our insurance policy. All I cared about was if a Boxer was allowed or not. Turns out it was NOT because it was deemed to be too aggressive.

You could have been breaking into our home when Barney the Boxer was home alone and instead of protecting our home, he would have gotten them something cold to drink from the fridge. Sorta like Alex from Strohs.

I rolled the dice and just left him off the policy. I am not usually a dice roller on such things but he was our boy and what the hell was I going to do with him? So having child molesters in the surrounding area is okay, drunk drivers, no problemo but having a Boxer is a problem? I know you could blow a thousand holes in the way I'm thinking about this but a Boxer being aggressive? Not any that I've ever come across. We loved that damn dog and losing him so early was a heartbreaker. I brought him to the dog park twice and the second time he had a run-in with a beautiful-looking Pit. Nevermore to the dog park. Our boy got a little chipped up but was fine in a few days. The Vet gave him something for the bite or scratch he got. I paid for it all and just let it go.

That being said. If he was killed by that Pit I'd probably be living at Coleman in an Orange Colored uniform.

Bastards, control your animal. Keep them on a leash and whoever called someone in another thread I read yesterday a M....F I hope karma catches up with you quickly.

I rest my case!

[shut the front door]

I saw the news on the other Villages news site.Dog dies after vicious attack by pit bull on Historic Side of The Villages

Can you post a link please?

If you saw it on the other site, why do you need a link?
Links to that site aren't allowed here.

[Stu4206]

I cannot find it on the other site. I also did not know you could not post a link from the other site.

[Taltarzac725]

If you saw it on the other site, why do you need a link?
Links to that site aren't allowed here.

It is called The Villages News or something like that.

[Taltarzac725]

I cannot find it on the other site. I also did not know you could not post a link from the other site.

It happened Monday afternoon. Dog named Casper.

[Velvet]

Sometimes I think one should need a a special license to own one of these powerful dogs. Very sorry to hear what happened to the little pooch, but historically the pits were bred for dog aggression and they need specific training and handling to socialize.

[Pairadocs]

My brother had a pit bull. It was the sweetest, most even-tempered dog ever.

Right up to the time it attacked his daughter.

You can't blame the dog. A pit bull is what it is. And what it is, is a dog bred to be aggressive; bull-baiting and dog fighting primarily, with a powerful bite strength of 235 psi. But when they bite they don't just bite. They tear. They hang on and rip. That is why a pit bull attack can be the most damaging of any dog, even dogs twice it's size.

Statistics bear out the danger of this breed. In the time-period 2005 - 2017, dog attacks killed 433 Americans. 284 of these deaths were by pit bulls. Rottweilers came in at #2, responsible for 10.4% of the deaths. That is two-thirds of all deaths from dog attacks in America--by a breed that numbers-wise makes up barely 6% of the canine population in this country (International Dog Day 2020 website). Pit bulls lead heavily in the number of reported attacks as well, with 3,397 attacks in the time-period compared to 535 by rottweilers.

Not all pit bulls are dangerous. But far too many times, a trusted family pet turns killer, with the most unsettling statistic being that fully 25% of pit bull fatalities are of children 0-2. My niece was lucky: her father was in the house at the time, interrupted the attack and the pit bull met it's maker a few minutes later courtesy of a .357 magnum bullet to the head. But not all children are so lucky.

Many countries ban pit bulls totally. In America a lot of home insurers won't insure your home if you own a pit bull.

Maybe it's time we looked at banning them too.


You said what is usually left unsaid ! I am sure there are many many "sweet" pit bulls and others, mastiff perhaps ? But you said it all, they are what they are, not the best breed for domestic pets, but many will disagree and never have a problem. But I reminds me of the tragic Siegfried & Roy horror... after all those years of domestic breeding of their own line, their pets living exactly like human children in their home, and then...... as you said... and THEN..... nature.

[Pairadocs]

My brother had a pit bull. It was the sweetest, most even-tempered dog ever.

Right up to the time it attacked his daughter.

You can't blame the dog. A pit bull is what it is. And what it is, is a dog bred to be aggressive; bull-baiting and dog fighting primarily, with a powerful bite strength of 235 psi. But when they bite they don't just bite. They tear. They hang on and rip. That is why a pit bull attack can be the most damaging of any dog, even dogs twice it's size.

Statistics bear out the danger of this breed. In the time-period 2005 - 2017, dog attacks killed 433 Americans. 284 of these deaths were by pit bulls. Rottweilers came in at #2, responsible for 10.4% of the deaths. That is two-thirds of all deaths from dog attacks in America--by a breed that numbers-wise makes up barely 6% of the canine population in this country (International Dog Day 2020 website). Pit bulls lead heavily in the number of reported attacks as well, with 3,397 attacks in the time-period compared to 535 by rottweilers.

Not all pit bulls are dangerous. But far too many times, a trusted family pet turns killer, with the most unsettling statistic being that fully 25% of pit bull fatalities are of children 0-2. My niece was lucky: her father was in the house at the time, interrupted the attack and the pit bull met it's maker a few minutes later courtesy of a .357 magnum bullet to the head. But not all children are so lucky.

Many countries ban pit bulls totally. In America a lot of home insurers won't insure your home if you own a pit bull.

Maybe it's time we looked at banning them too.


You said what is usually left unsaid ! I am sure there are many many "sweet" pit bulls and others, mastiff perhaps ? But you said it all, they are what they are, not the best breed for domestic pets, but many will disagree and never have a problem. It reminds me of the tragic Siegfried & Roy horror... after all those years of domestic breeding of their own line of while tigers, their pets living exactly like human children in their home, and then...... as you said... and THEN..... nature.

[Two Bills]

I'm not certain if things have changed in the 6 1/2 years we've been here but when we did purchase our first home in the Historic Section we were told by The Villages Insurance that several breeds of dogs were not allowed to be on our insurance policy. All I cared about was if a Boxer was allowed or not. Turns out it was NOT because it was deemed to be too aggressive.

You could have been breaking into our home when Barney the Boxer was home alone and instead of protecting our home, he would have gotten them something cold to drink from the fridge. Sorta like Alex from Strohs.

I rolled the dice and just left him off the policy. I am not usually a dice roller on such things but he was our boy and what the hell was I going to do with him? So having child molesters in the surrounding area is okay, drunk drivers, no problemo but having a Boxer is a problem? I know you could blow a thousand holes in the way I'm thinking about this but a Boxer being aggressive? Not any that I've ever come across. We loved that damn dog and losing him so early was a heartbreaker. I brought him to the dog park twice and the second time he had a run-in with a beautiful-looking Pit. Nevermore to the dog park. Our boy got a little chipped up but was fine in a few days. The Vet gave him something for the bite or scratch he got. I paid for it all and just let it go.

That being said. If he was killed by that Pit I'd probably be living at Coleman in an Orange Colored uniform.

Bastards, control your animal. Keep them on a leash and whoever called someone in another thread I read yesterday a M....F I hope karma catches up with you quickly.

I rest my case!

I had a cousin who always had a Boxer dog/s around her all her life.
Not one was aggressive or snappy.
Slobber you to death though!
They always reminded me of the kid who made the class laugh. A bit thick, but had their smarts.
She always called them her 'loyal clowns!'

[me4vt]

If your Dog attacks my Dog and we’re 100% in the Right, Your dog “will” be put down on the spot……. It is what it is, Izz! I’m the sole protector of My Dogs!

[Cobullymom]

Pit Bulls top the statistical lists as the #1 killer of people every year. But trying to get people to believe this fact is like trying to convince anti-vaxers to get a shot. They will always say things like, "They always misidentify the breed", "There are no bad Pit Bulls- only bad owners". "I've owned Pit Bulls my whole life and they are gentle". The deeply rooted denial of facts in the face of solid, repeating statistics boggles the mind. Go ahead- do a Google search ("Google is flawed", "The American Kennel Club's statistics are wrong")
So apparently you're not aware of statistics anti vaxxers are doing better than those who are, current Kaiser foundation study so your point is moot..

[Kelevision]

I cannot find it on the other site. I also did not know you could not post a link from the other site.

Just google villages pit bull kills dog. Interestingly, they were both “daughters” of villagers. One daughter was walking her and her parents dogs and the pit bull belonged to a different daughter and it seems like the “villager”, not the daughter was walking the pit bull and it broke free from him/her. So likely, the villager wasn’t prepared for what to do next since it wasn’t their dog. But I agree that some of the nicest dogs I’ve ever met were pit bulls and I’ve only encountered one time that a mean dog bit me and it was a cocker spaniel. Go figure.

[ithos]

This is one of the worst pit bull attacks I ever read about.

2 Children Killed, Mother Hospitalized After Family Pit Bulls Attack Them (https://people.com/crime/2-children-killed-pit-bull-attack-tennessee-mother-hospitalized/)

They killed both kids even though though the dogs were pets for 8 years.

So if you are attacked, what are some of the best ways to survive a dog mauling?

[Sandy and Ed]

My brother had a pit bull. It was the sweetest, most even-tempered dog ever.

Right up to the time it attacked his daughter.

You can't blame the dog. A pit bull is what it is. And what it is, is a dog bred to be aggressive; bull-baiting and dog fighting primarily, with a powerful bite strength of 235 psi. But when they bite they don't just bite. They tear. They hang on and rip. That is why a pit bull attack can be the most damaging of any dog, even dogs twice it's size.

Statistics bear out the danger of this breed. In the time-period 2005 - 2017, dog attacks killed 433 Americans. 284 of these deaths were by pit bulls. Rottweilers came in at #2, responsible for 10.4% of the deaths. That is two-thirds of all deaths from dog attacks in America--by a breed that numbers-wise makes up barely 6% of the canine population in this country (International Dog Day 2020 website). Pit bulls lead heavily in the number of reported attacks as well, with 3,397 attacks in the time-period compared to 535 by rottweilers.

Not all pit bulls are dangerous. But far too many times, a trusted family pet turns killer, with the most unsettling statistic being that fully 25% of pit bull fatalities are of children 0-2. My niece was lucky: her father was in the house at the time, interrupted the attack and the pit bull met it's maker a few minutes later courtesy of a .357 magnum bullet to the head. But not all children are so lucky.

Many countries ban pit bulls totally. In America a lot of home insurers won't insure your home if you own a pit bull.

Maybe it's time we looked at banning them too.
Breeding of pit bulls needs to be outlawed. Sterilization of existing pit bulls mandated, registration of pit bull ownership legislated and owners with unregistered pit bull heavily fined with confiscation of the pit bull. Bottom line would be to phase out the breed over time while allowing current owners to keep their dogs. Oh yeah, somehow would need to clearly define “pit bull” as a breed. (American Staffordshire terrier is usually referred to as a pit bull). By the way the AmStat is a beautiful dog and folks I’ve known who owned them called them gentle and friendly. One told me his vet said the issue is with the skull over compressing the brain as the dog grows. Sounded strange to me and I doubt that is what causes the aggression

[Halbraun]

So apparently you're not aware of statistics anti vaxxers are doing better than those who are, current Kaiser foundation study so your point is moot..


Calling false on that statement! Another cherry picked statistic. Go to Kaiser’s site and see what they say about getting vaccinated.

[Travelhunter123]

Pit Bulls top the statistical lists as the #1 killer of people every year. But trying to get people to believe this fact is like trying to convince anti-vaxers to get a shot. They will always say things like, "They always misidentify the breed", "There are no bad Pit Bulls- only bad owners". "I've owned Pit Bulls my whole life and they are gentle". The deeply rooted denial of facts in the face of solid, repeating statistics boggles the mind. Go ahead- do a Google search ("Google is flawed", "The American Kennel Club's statistics are wrong")

Why do people get these dogs

[Petersweeney]

But trying to get people to believe this fact is like trying to convince anti-vaxers to get a shot. They will always say things like, "They always misidentify the breed", "There are no bad Pit Bulls- only bad owners". "I've owned Pit Bulls my whole life……

Omg still peddling this misinformation…..

[rrtjp]

Why do people get these dogs

Good question, I’d like to know as well. Bragging rights that they own the meanest breed?

[Caymus]

Why do people get these dogs

In most places it is to guard illegal drugs.

[mikeycereal]

My first intro to a pit bull was a neighbor friend who had a white one as a pet several years ago before they got into the news. He said check this out and had the pit bull bite onto a flip flop, then he held up the flip flop to about his waist area and spun around 5 times with the dog holding on, emphasizing the grip the dog had.

Many years later I met a couple of really sweet ones. A white one named Missy that was given to a relative and they later had to give it away because that breed wasn't allowed in their building. And a giant brown one that the owner brought to work. Scary big but super sweet. It would come over and greet everyone and I would pet it and talk gently to it. It loved turkey bacon so I quickly made friends after giving him a small piece. 5 years ago I had an aggressive one lunge at me on a leash outside at my complex. Thankfully the owner held it back and said no to it.

But the thing is with pits is that it doesn't take just training it to attack and be aggressive to get it that way, but simply aggressive playing that you may traditionally do with other dogs brings that out in them. Should never play tug of war or be pushing away their face or any aggressive game. You can with some other breeds and they're okay with it, but not pits. It teaches them to play rough, which they may one day do to another. Owner may say "my pit is the sweetest" but how do they play with it?

As for why they choose to get that dog, most will say for protection. But one day they may need protection from them.

[ronwinger]

I trust no Pit-Bulls. Mixed or not mixed. The problem is.... one does not know how mixed they may be, do they have the gene to kill somewhere in their DNA? When folks find out it is too late. I sure would not want my child, grandchild, neighbor's pet or anyone to be attacked by a pt bull. I had a neighbor, his sister that was killed by her two "sweet-loving" pit bulls. We probably all know a story of some kind about Pits and their temperament. At the end of the day... they are animals. In most instances, they are smarter that their owners. Just saying...

[ThirdOfFive]

Why do people get these dogs
Good question. Protection? Prestige?

Overcompensating for deficiencies in other--areas--perhaps?

Back in the day our quiet little town gradually became a destination for the drug trade. This wasn't helped by the fact that the town, unbeknownst to the residents, was being used as a dumping ground for the Witness Protection Program. Along with this there was a gradual influx of dogs known to be dangerous: pit bulls and akitas mainly, owned by folks who had a "business" to run and who felt the need to protect their trade with such a dog. There was a leash law in town but not always followed; there had been a gradual rise in sightings of pit bulls and akitas roaming off-leash. Not common, but enough to convince me to carry a pistol whenever I went walking in one of the numerous and beautiful parks our city sported.

Part of my job at the time was investigating allegations of child abuse and neglect. Usually we took a uniformed officer along but that wasn't always possible. Suffice it to say there were instances when we were NOT welcome on the premises. We were taught to regard a homeowner or (more often) renter holding a pit bull or akita on a leash exactly as if we had a loaded gun pointed at us, and to vacate the premises as quickly as possible.

These dogs have a well-earned reputation, and an increase in illicit activities in any community only increases their presence.

[airstreamingypsy]

Statistically, if a dog kills you it is a Pit. Pit apologists say, "It's how they were raised" that's not so, all breeds have bad owners. Most Pits live their whole life not killing anyone, but not all. To me, its a bit like playing Russian Roulette. Five empty chambers...... do you want to have a dog that probably won't kill someone... but might.

[Darcue]

That pitbull and it’s owner passed my house a number of times in the past few months. It nearly attacked my dog and shouldn’t be allowed in the area. I love dogs. I’ve always had them, but when they turn vicious, they’re frightening. I don’t want to see harm come to that animal, but I do think it belongs in a sheltered area.

[merrymini]

My yorkie was attached by a pit. He pulled the dog from my arms,. The resulting trauma cost about $2000 in vet bills. Penalty to the pit owner, $50 for not having the dog licensed. Cops did nothing and could not care less. I ordinarily, do not like to see compulsive action, but pitties are a danger to everyone. The numbers do not lie.

[JMintzer]

You said what is usually left unsaid ! I am sure there are many many "sweet" pit bulls and others, mastiff perhaps ? But you said it all, they are what they are, not the best breed for domestic pets, but many will disagree and never have a problem. But I reminds me of the tragic Siegfried & Roy horror... after all those years of domestic breeding of their own line, their pets living exactly like human children in their home, and then...... as you said... and THEN..... nature.

"People say that Tiger went crazy...

No, that Tiger went TIGER!"


- Chris Rock

[JMintzer]

Pit Bulls top the statistical lists as the #1 killer of people every year. But trying to get people to believe this fact is like trying to convince anti-vaxers to get a shot. They will always say things like, "They always misidentify the breed", "There are no bad Pit Bulls- only bad owners". "I've owned Pit Bulls my whole life and they are gentle". The deeply rooted denial of facts in the face of solid, repeating statistics boggles the mind. Go ahead- do a Google search ("Google is flawed", "The American Kennel Club's statistics are wrong")

You just HAD to go there... :rolleyes:

[JMintzer]

So apparently you're not aware of statistics anti vaxxers are doing better than those who are, current Kaiser foundation study so your point is moot..

Aaaad we're off!

[JMintzer]

Breeding of pit bulls needs to be outlawed. Sterilization of existing pit bulls mandated, registration of pit bull ownership legislated and owners with unregistered pit bull heavily fined with confiscation of the pit bull. Bottom line would be to phase out the breed over time while allowing current owners to keep their dogs. Oh yeah, somehow would need to clearly define “pit bull” as a breed. (American Staffordshire terrier is usually referred to as a pit bull). By the way the AmStat is a beautiful dog and folks I’ve known who owned them called them gentle and friendly. One told me his vet said the issue is with the skull over compressing the brain as the dog grows. Sounded strange to me and I doubt that is what causes the aggression

So, SOME Pit Bulls are okay, but others have to be eliminated?

[JMintzer]

In most places it is to guard illegal drugs.

Most places?

[JMintzer]

My yorkie was attached by a pit. He pulled the dog from my arms,. The resulting trauma cost about $2000 in vet bills. Penalty to the pit owner, $50 for not having the dog licensed. Cops did nothing and could not care less. I ordinarily, do not like to see compulsive action, but pitties are a danger to everyone. The numbers do not lie.

The only time I've ever been bitten by a dog was by a sweet little Yorkie...

[JMintzer]

So apparently you're not aware of statistics anti vaxxers are doing better than those who are, current Kaiser foundation study so your point is moot..


Calling false on that statement! Another cherry picked statistic. Go to Kaiser’s site and see what they say about getting vaccinated.

But trying to get people to believe this fact is like trying to convince anti-vaxers to get a shot. They will always say things like, "They always misidentify the breed", "There are no bad Pit Bulls- only bad owners". "I've owned Pit Bulls my whole life……

Omg still peddling this misinformation…..

Can we please stick to one argument at a time?

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Just like those who say we need more guns to stop the violence when all the stats show that the more guns we have, the more people die from being shot.

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Can we please stick to one argument at a time?

I think this is related because it goes to the heart of the mindset of people who refuse to accept the facts -- in other words, it's the same thing, the same processing of information that leads to harmful actions.

[Papa_lecki]

I think this is related because it goes to the heart of the mindset of people who refuse to accept the facts

I think this is related because it goes to the heart of the mindset of people who refuse to accept YOUR INTERPRETATION OF the facts

Here’s the sentence from the Keyser study…..
“ In fall 2021, about 3 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted. But by January 2022, as we showed in an analysis posted on the Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker, about 4 in 10 deaths were vaccinated or boosted. By April 2022, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) data show that about 6 in 10 adults dying of COVID-19 were vaccinated or boosted, and that’s remained true through at least August 2022”

[JMintzer]

Can we please stick to one argument at a time?

Just like those who say we need more guns to stop the violence when all the stats show that the more guns we have, the more people die from being shot.

So, the answer is no?

[JMintzer]

I think this is related because it goes to the heart of the mindset of people who refuse to accept the facts -- in other words, it's the same thing, the same processing of information that leads to harmful actions.

I sense you don't know that "correlation does not imply causation"...

[maggie1]

So apparently you're not aware of statistics anti vaxxers are doing better than those who are, current Kaiser foundation study so your point is moot..

I'm afraid that we are a bot off-topic, but I'd be interested in knowing where you obtained your information about the Kaiser Foundations study. The Foundation is not a part of Kaiser Permanente, it merely reports medical statistics but as far as I'm aware they make no recommendations for or against anything. I would stand corrected if you could qualify your statement with a link that I could review. Thank you.

[JMintzer]

I'm afraid that we are a bot off-topic, but I'd be interested in knowing where you obtained your information about the Kaiser Foundations study. The Foundation is not a part of Kaiser Permanente, it merely reports medical statistics but as far as I'm aware they make no recommendations for or against anything. I would stand corrected if you could qualify your statement with a link that I could review. Thank you.

Please start a new thread. This thread is dedicated to the bashing of pit bulls...

[Djean1981]

My yorkie was attached by a pit. He pulled the dog from my arms,. The resulting trauma cost about $2000 in vet bills. Penalty to the pit owner, $50 for not having the dog licensed. Cops did nothing and could not care less. I ordinarily, do not like to see compulsive action, but pitties are a danger to everyone. The numbers do not lie.
The police did nothing?

[Velvet]

A well trained dog can be amazing, I used to admire “Daddy”, Cesar Milan’s pit bull. But if you observed this dog, every 7 seconds he’d look at Cesar as if to say, “Am I being a good dog, now? Am I doing what you want?” And I mean EVERY 7 seconds or so. THAT is training. But there is only one Cesar, I stopped breeding because I didn’t feel comfortable with people who bought a “cute” puppy, not ready for what that dog needs when full grown.

[DonnaNi4os]

First let me say that my heart breaks for the family that lost their precious pup. My daughter rescued a pit bull several years ago. There was no back history on the dog but the tears in his ears and bite marks on his body spoke volumes. I thought my daughter was crazy to take on this responsibility. Well, this was the sweetest dog and the name she gave him, Romeo, speaks volumes. Problem is that his very muscular build and massive jaws had the potential to do real damage. Thankfully that never happened. As for labs being high on the list of frequent biters…my golden retriever bit me, requiring a tetanus shot and stitches. He had always been docile up to that point. The bottom line is, just like people, any animal could snap at anytime. Being a responsible owner makes for a good dog. And above all, there is a leash law for a reason! I see way to many walked off leash. I currently have the 13th dog of my life and cannot imagine life without her.

Again, my sympathies to the family that lost their precious dog.

[Boomer]

Statistically, if a dog kills you it is a Pit. Pit apologists say, "It's how they were raised" that's not so, all breeds have bad owners. Most Pits live their whole life not killing anyone, but not all. To me, its a bit like playing Russian Roulette. Five empty chambers...... do you want to have a dog that probably won't kill someone... but might.



I think your Russian Roulette analogy is perfect.

I know two women who have pit bulls. Both of these women are highly intelligent and successful, but when it comes to their dogs, common sense seems to not be a factor.

They definitely subscribe to that embedded mantra, “It’s not the dog. It’s the owner.” (I have always found that to be an arrogant statement on the part of pit bull owners, like they think they are in some special category that can overcome nature.)

One of these pit bull owners has small children and likes to talk about how “good” the pit is with the kids although highly territorial in most other situations…..Hellooo, sounds like a time bomb to me. (I cringe, and hope I never regret keeping my mouth shut — which would not make any difference anyway. The mantra would continue.)

Years ago, we were at a small party at the home of someone with a pit. The dog had taken a liking to Mr. Boomer and was sitting next to him. I later sat down with the dog between us and when I turned to talk to Mr. B, that dog growled in my face. I made sure not to even look at Mr. Boomer after that and quickly made polite excuses to leave. I think I could have lost my face had I not taken that dog’s hint. I am sure glad I had sense enough to read that dog.

I find Nature/Nurture to be fascinating, whether in dogs or people……

As a parallel to Nature/Nurture in dogs, I think of the dog we got not long after we were married. We wanted a middle- sized dog, so I looked at newspaper ads where I found a Brittany Spaniel……..

She was a beauty, who knew more about her ancestry that we know about ours. Her grandpa was a field champion. Her markings were perfect, just like the orange and white Brittany pictures in books.

We do not hunt birds or anything else. We just wanted a pet. I bought a book about Brittany Spaniels that I called my Brittany Spaniel Manual. I still remember the first sentence, “The Brittany is at home at the hearth as well as at the hunt.”

She had a wonderful life with us for over 16 years — before that last ride to the vet.

But, here’s the thing, even though she was our pet and lived in the house and had never, ever been taken hunting, we soon realized that when outside, her nose was almost always sniffing the air, not the ground, and she would often go into a perfect point and could hold that point forever.

There was a big county park close to us and those were the days when we could let her run there. One day, she was flushing birds from cattails by the lake and a man who was watching tried his best to buy her from us.

The point of this dissertation on our Brittany Spaniel is that she had been bred to hunt and it was in her nature and showed up whenever she got the chance to go into her perfect point or to flush birds. It was fun to see and we gave her many opportunities to exercise and show off her bird dog nature, though we did not carry along a shotgun — much to her disappointment, I’m sure. :)

Nature/Nurture? I think — and have seen — that both are always there, whether in people or dogs.

There is an old saying, “What’s bred in the bone comes out in the flesh.” — Applied to a bird dog? That’s OK. But when applied to a pit bull………………

Boomer

[DonnaNi4os]

I neglected to mention in my previous post the Pit Bulls were once used as “nanny dogs” because they were so good with children. That leads me to believe that nature/nurture plays a huge part in the reputation of this breed.

[Two Bills]

It's a good job nature and genetics decided Chihuahua's should be small.
If they were large dogs, they would eat Pit bulls for breakfast.
Dachshunds are stroppy little boogers as well.
It's the 'ankle snappers' you have to be careful of!

[JMintzer]

Hey, Mintzer, the thread topic is about a pit bull attack. You’re doggone right, this thread does bash put bulls.

And I was just getting ready to post my opinion and experience — and, dog lover though I may be, I do not think pit bulls can be trusted.

So anyway, I think I will go ahead and post my opinion of pit bulls in the appropriate thread — which is this one.

(Btw, you are all over almost every post here this morning — looks like kind of in a heckling mode or mood. Nipping at the heels of other posters? Gr-r-r-r.)

Boomer

Hey Boomer,

Was I replying to you? Didn't think so...

Oh, and thanks for keeping track of post counts. We can always "count" on you for that!

[bsloan1960]

I had a cousin who always had a Boxer dog/s around her all her life.
Not one was aggressive or snappy.
Slobber you to death though!
They always reminded me of the kid who made the class laugh. A bit thick, but had their smarts.
She always called them her 'loyal clowns!'

Insurance companies operate using Actuary Tables and Statistical Analysis. If they allow or disallow Boxers or any other breeds it isn't because someone knows someone who has a gentle Dog. They take statistics on dog attacks seriously and don't dismiss them because they've owned 3 Boxers and those 3 never hurt anyone.

[bsloan1960]

So apparently you're not aware of statistics anti vaxxers are doing better than those who are, current Kaiser foundation study so your point is moot..

Let's stay on topic regarding the dangerousness of Pit Bulls. To do that I'll admit I was wrong to use Covid shots as a comparison. OK. With that out of the way... Since you trust statistics that tell us more vaxxed than non-vaxxed are getting sick- do you also trust the statistics that tell us that year after year Pit Bulls are the #1 killer of people?

[bsloan1960]

(Btw, you are all over almost every post here this morning — looks like kind of in a heckling mode or mood. Nipping at the heels of other posters? Gr-r-r-r.)

Boomer

There are people in forums that stand off to the side- holding a big fan, always on the lookout for a spark they can fan into a flame. Seeing these fires flare- and Causing these fires to flare feeds some persistent hunger they have that is only satisfied when they see others unhappy. The other way they get the food to feed this weakness is by directly insulting others.

[Two Bills]

Insurance companies operate using Actuary Tables and Statistical Analysis. If they allow or disallow Boxers or any other breeds it isn't because someone knows someone who has a gentle Dog. They take statistics on dog attacks seriously and don't dismiss them because they've owned 3 Boxers and those 3 never hurt anyone.

I was replying to a post from 'Nucky' regarding his old Boxer.
Nothing to do with Insurance Claims, Actuary Tables or Statistical Analysis, or how Boxers were rated on the dangerous dog scale.
Anecdotal responses are still allowed I believe!

[Two Bills]

95998

[JMintzer]

95998

Bravo! Well done!

:bigbow::1rotfl::bigbow::1rotfl::bigbow:

[Boomer]

95998


Ah, our friend, Two Bills — and his wonderful, subtle, insightful, British sense of humor.

You spotted me. I do love a good pillow fight. I guess it shows. Just a pillow fight. Nothing meaner. (My money’s on the girl. :))

Boomer

[Taltarzac725]

It's a good job nature and genetics decided Chihuahua's should be small.
If they were large dogs, they would eat Pit bulls for breakfast.
Dachshunds are stroppy little boogers as well.
It's the 'ankle snappers' you have to be careful of!

My Chihuahua Terrier mix would chase a sweet pit bull around the big field at a local private dog park while barking at it. The poor sweet pit bull mix received $700 worth of damages done by big dogs at the dog park. She recovered the first time, came back months later, and got bitten by a big dog. The total was $700. Most wounds to the face.

[ThirdOfFive]

My Chihuahua Terrier mix would chase a sweet pit bull around the big field at a local private dog park while barking at it. The poor sweet pit bull mix received $700 worth of damages done by big dogs at the dog park. She recovered the first time, came back months later, and got bitten by a big dog. The total was $700. Most wounds to the face.
Sorta like that scene in the movie "Patton" where his pit bull William was cowed and dominated by a bit of fluff owned by a British woman. Amusing, but what made it so is the fact that in it ran counter to the norm. Most of the time, cute little bits of fluff are the TARGET of pit bulls.

In a like vein, my brother swears that his cute little miniature dachshund chased an adult timber wolf from his yard. My brother has been known to exaggerate a bit now and then. But I suppose that, however unlikely, it IS possible. That little dog of his is a pretty take-charge kind of critter, usually dominating any group of (usually much larger) dogs.

[JMintzer]

Ah, our friend, Two Bills — and his wonderful, subtle, insightful, British sense of humor.

You spotted me. I do love a good pillow fight. I guess it shows. Just a pillow fight. Nothing meaner. (My money’s on the girl. :))

Boomer

Which one? :thumbup:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/8PBsWlbqAGFvK0GVoJ/giphy.gif

[WharfRat]

There are people in forums that stand off to the side- holding a big fan, always on the lookout for a spark they can fan into a flame. Seeing these fires flare- and Causing these fires to flare feeds some persistent hunger they have that is only satisfied when they see others unhappy. The other way they get the food to feed this weakness is by directly insulting others.

Totally agree! And I thought posts were supposed to be on topic and not personal. My ignore list is getting longer.

[Sandy and Ed]

So, SOME Pit Bulls are okay, but others have to be eliminated?
No I’m just saying the breed needs to be eventually eliminated if that aggressiveness is hard wired in their genetic makeup. Let’s cut some slack to those who presently own pits but strictly enforce registration and strictly penalize noncompliance. A $50 fine for allowing your overly aggressive and uncontrolled pit to kill another owners dog is unjust

[Taltarzac725]

U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities: Breeds of Dogs Involved, Age Groups and Other Factors Over a 13-Year Period (2005 to 2017) (https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-multi-year-fatality-report-2005-2017.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIp6bwl5jg-wIVcgx9Ch1p1QIaEAAYASACEgLYb_D_BwE)

I assume "pit bull" covers a number of different dog breeds. 5 Types of Pit Bull Dog Breeds (https://www.thesprucepets.com/pitbull-dog-breeds-4843994)

[JMintzer]

No I’m just saying the breed needs to be eventually eliminated if that aggressiveness is hard wired in their genetic makeup. Let’s cut some slack to those who presently own pits but strictly enforce registration and strictly penalize noncompliance. A $50 fine for allowing your overly aggressive and uncontrolled pit to kill another owners dog is unjust

I agree to that if ANY overly aggressive dog killed another dog...

But the question is "IF" that aggression is hardwired or not...

I'm of the belief that are very few "bad dogs", just bad owners... Just as there are very few "bad people", just bad parents... Are there exceptions? Most certainly.

The previous owner of my home had two large dogs that he refused to keep on leash. They terrorized the neighbors who were riding their bikes and other dogs out on walks with their owners.

He even got into a physical altercation with someone at the dog park, resulting in assault charges... He was the poster child for being a "bad owner"...

Lest I repeat myself, the "previous" owner... He no longer lives in TV...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The problem with pits is not that they bite. ALL dogs will bite, given motivation/reason to do so. The problem is the physiology of the pit's bite. Their jaw structure and the power behind their facial musculature. THAT is what makes their bites more of a problem than that of other dogs. It's not their training, it's not bad owners, it's not bad dogs. It's just anatomy/physiology of canines, nothing more or less.

The reason it's newsworthy - is because of the owners of these animals. Not because of the dogs themselves. The dogs are doing what dogs do, in whatever circumstances they are placed in, given whatever training they're given (or lack thereof). An improperly-trained chihuahua will bite more often than an improperly-trained pit bull. Here's why: because no one thinks of a chihuahua as a "dangerous breed" so when they bite, it's often dismissed as "oh chihuahuas are tiny, no harm, here's $50 for the stitches, my bad, woopsie, who's a good widdle doggie, YOU are a good widdle doggie!"

And so they will bite again, and again, because their owners refuse to acknowledge that dogs biting is a bad thing, no matter what breed they are or how cute or small they are.

If a pit bites someone, the DOG is vilified. It's not the dog. It's the owner. Always.

[JMintzer]

I'm of the belief that are very few "bad dogs", just bad owners... Just as there are very few "bad people", just bad parents... Are there exceptions? Most certainly..

If a pit bites someone, the DOG is vilified. It's not the dog. It's the owner. Always.

Wait, What? We agree??? Excuse me while I pass out for a second... :shocked::shocked::shocked: :thumbup:

[fdpaq0580]

It's not the dog. It's the owner. Always.

I have been bitten by dogs, but never by an owner.
Some dogs have been bred to be aggressive. The potential for bites increases in those breeds because owners either don't understand that some breeds require more training, maintenance and attention and , or they just aren't able or willing fulfill the dogs need.

[kkingston57]

My yorkie was attached by a pit. He pulled the dog from my arms,. The resulting trauma cost about $2000 in vet bills. Penalty to the pit owner, $50 for not having the dog licensed. Cops did nothing and could not care less. I ordinarily, do not like to see compulsive action, but pitties are a danger to everyone. The numbers do not lie.

Suggest you hire a lawyer and see if the attorney can help you. Does not matter what the cop did or did not do. It is a civil matter and cops do not get involved if the dog owner did not commit a crime.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I have been bitten by dogs, but never by an owner.
Some dogs have been bred to be aggressive. The potential for bites increases in those breeds because owners either don't understand that some breeds require more training, maintenance and attention and , or they just aren't able or willing fulfill the dogs need.

Dogs that are bred to be aggressive can have that aggressiveness trained out of them. It requires a human willing and able to do the work.

Once again - it is the owner, not the dog. Always.

[Aces4]

Dogs that are bred to be aggressive can have that aggressiveness trained out of them. It requires a human willing and able to do the work.

Once again - it is the owner, not the dog. Always.

Just like an aggressive bull can be taught not to charge and a deadly snake can be taught never to strike…. NOT! A pit bull can be trained but can never be fully trusted not to perform their innate behavior.

[fdpaq0580]

Just like an aggressive bull can be taught not to charge and a deadly snake can be taught never to strike…. NOT! A pit bull can be trained but can never be fully trusted not to perform their innate behavior.

True. Aggressive behavior is bred in, not learned. The dogs aren't "bad", just naturally aggressive. They require special care and attention and handling.
"You can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but you can't take Brooklyn out of the boy", and "a leopard can't change it's spots", and a cute little pitbull puppy will grow into a pitbull. Large, powerful, and maybe more than you bargained for.

[Whitley]

True. Aggressive behavior is bred in, not learned. The dogs aren't "bad", just naturally aggressive. They require special care and attention and handling.
"You can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but you can't take Brooklyn out of the boy", and "a leopard can't change it's spots", and a cute little pitbull puppy will grow into a pitbull. Large, powerful, and maybe more than you bargained for.

We (The Bronx) use to have a similar saying about taking the boy(?) out of Brooklyn, but we used a different word.

[Boomer]

Dogs that are bred to be aggressive can have that aggressiveness trained out of them. It requires a human willing and able to do the work.

Once again - it is the owner, not the dog. Always.


It must be a blue moon or a cold day in hell because I am disagreeing with OBB.

May I ask, does that “Always” mean that you think there is no Nature to it and that it’s all about Nurture?

To extend my question — are our individual personalities as humans dependent completely on Nurture or are some things just our Nature? (I recognize that as humans our personality traits can be modified by Nurture — or the lack of Nurture — but, even so, I see our individual human Nature as being in us from the beginning.)

Boomer

[fdpaq0580]

We (The Bronx) use to have a similar saying about taking the boy(?) out of Brooklyn, but we used a different word.

I'm sure there are hundreds of variation of that saying. I just randomly selected Brooklyn. Could have just as easily said L. A. (calif). Basically, things are what they are. Training will not turn a pitbull into something it is not.

[JMintzer]

I assure you I am not a post-counter, although I know we have a few around here. I don’t like it when someone points out somebody’s number of posts — as if more is better.

But, I guess you do have me on a minor technicality here because I did kind of “count” your posts this morning in THIS thread because of the pattern — heckling other posters, time after time. The pattern was clear.

Speaking of obvious, I think this time the agenda is to keep on trying to bait me because I dared to talk back to you — and if I continue to respond, you will keep it going and reach your transparent goal of getting the thread shut down.

Therefore, I think I’d better turn up my nose and walk away. Besides, I have to get ready to go to a holiday season wine-testing. (I sure hope I don’t post when I get back. :))

Back to pit bulls……

And……

Buh bye.

Bubbles Boomer

I owe you an apology...

When I called you a "post counter" I had you confused with another poster, who's name also starts with "Bo" and has a hard time making pars...

Mea Culpa...

[PugMom]

I cannot find it on the other site. I also did not know you could not post a link from the other site.

as time passes & you are here reading, you will learn certain subjects are taboo. in some cases it refers to another media site with less class & low decorum, by allowing posters to run amok. sooner or later you WILL run into the media site, & you will know it when you get there, lol

[Two Bills]

I have been a Greyhound man most of my dog keeping days. Bred them, and raced them.
So lazy, sleep 16+ hours a day, sociable, and a real pleasure to walk.
Until.
Something small moves!
Then, in most/many cases the genes kick in, and they want to go. Seriously!
The chase is so inbred, that it is nearly impossible to get it out of them.
That does not mean they all want a 'kill' at the end, for most, it's just the fun of the chase.
I had an old arthritic bitch who was grey in the face, and struggled to raise a walk towards the end, but see something move in front of her, the old ears still went straight up!
I believe you can train most dogs to be sociable animals, but inherent characteristics could still come out, if the circumstances are there to trigger them.
Most of the unruly dogs you see, are in charge of their humans.
I loved my dogs, but they all new they were bottom of the family pack, and it does not need any cruelty to get them to understand.
Just firm patience, and never letting them win an argument.
Worked for my wife training me as well, then add three daughters, and I was only one place above the dogs anyway!
JMTC.

[Boomer]

This is a question for PugMom:

(A little off track — but not really. It’s a Nature question.)

PugMom,

I have known two pugs who lived together with some friends.

Those 2 dogs were absolutely joyous creatures.

As visitors, we always got the happiest, wiggliest greeting imaginable from the pugs, even though we visited only 2 or 3 times a year, so it was not like the dogs really knew us.

One time, I had left something in the car and after my initial welcome celebration from the pugs, I went back to the car. It took me not much more than a minute to get what I had left there.

Upon my nearly instant return to the house, the. pugs greeted me again with just as much joy as they had the first time.

Those pugs always made us laugh with their happy snorts and dancing greetings. Their owner would say , “You’ve been pugged.” :)

Are pugs always like that?

Boomer

[Velvet]

Thank you.

Boomer

Ah, any Tom Petty fan, well, you know….

[JMintzer]

Ah, any Tom Petty fan, well, you know….

https://media1.giphy.com/media/f7GXfUvpLXNTyDnMS2/200w.gif

[Velvet]

Off topic, forgive me; one of my sweetest memories is the time hubby and I were at Golden Gate Park in San Francisco during an Outsideland’s festival and Tom Petty was a headliner (60 bands performed). I think everyone, and I mean everyone, sang along with Petty. He was the best! So miss him.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It must be a blue moon or a cold day in hell because I am disagreeing with OBB.

May I ask, does that “Always” mean that you think there is no Nature to it and that it’s all about Nurture?

To extend my question — are our individual personalities as humans dependent completely on Nurture or are some things just our Nature? (I recognize that as humans our personality traits can be modified by Nurture — or the lack of Nurture — but, even so, I see our individual human Nature as being in us from the beginning.)

Boomer

Domestic dog breeds are domestic, not wild. There is no "nature" in these breeds. It's all selective breeding (man-made) and training (nurture). Pits are not naturally "aggressive." They are naturally very active working animals and need handlers who will give them plenty of work - and activity. They ALSO need socialization, because they are not bred for socialization. Terriers are hunters; it's instinctual, it isn't their breeding. It is a natural trait in terriers to want to hunt.

If you neglect to give a pit bull enough work, activity, and socialization, it will create its own activity, work, and method of socialization. The end result will not necessarily be pleasant for humans. A pit bull is no different from any other terrier in that it needs to be kept busy within the context of its physical abilities. What makes it different is the physical composition of its jaws. When a wire-haired terrier bites, it draws blood, can damage your arm, but it won't hold onto your arm very long. When a pit bull terrier bites, it latches on and basically has a ratchet-grip on your arm - if you try to pull your arm away you could end up with a missing hand.

[Aces4]

If you neglect to give a pit bull enough work, activity, and socialization, it will create its own activity, work, and method of socialization. The end result will not necessarily be pleasant for humans. A pit bull is no different from any other terrier in that it needs to be kept busy within the context of its physical abilities. What makes it different is the physical composition of its jaws. When a wire-haired terrier bites, it draws blood, can damage your arm, but it won't hold onto your arm very long. When a pit bull terrier bites, it latches on and basically has a ratchet-grip on your arm - if you try to pull your arm away you could end up with a missing hand.


You’re stating that unless a pit bull has just the right attention at just the right time, it’s innate temperament will take over. You’ve made the argument for us that they can never be trusted.

[fdpaq0580]

Domestic dog breeds are domestic, not wild. There is no "nature" in these breeds. It's all selective breeding (man-made) and training (nurture). Pits are not naturally "aggressive." They are naturally very active working animals and need handlers who will give them plenty of work - and activity. They ALSO need socialization, because they are not bred for socialization. Terriers are hunters; it's instinctual, it isn't their breeding. It is a natural trait in terriers to want to hunt.

If you neglect to give a pit bull enough work, activity, and socialization, it will create its own activity, work, and method of socialization. The end result will not necessarily be pleasant for humans. A pit bull is no different from any other terrier in that it needs to be kept busy within the context of its physical abilities. What makes it different is the physical composition of its jaws. When a wire-haired terrier bites, it draws blood, can damage your arm, but it won't hold onto your arm very long. When a pit bull terrier bites, it latches on and basically has a ratchet-grip on your arm - if you try to pull your arm away you could end up with a missing hand.

When you talk "breed" and " instinct", that is nature. Breeding is human directing and using
nature to enhance or diminish certain natural attributes. Not exactly "man-made"
"Terriers are hunters; it's instinctual, it isn't their breeding. It is a natural trait in terriers to want to hunt". Sorry, but the fact that terriers exist is because they were bred into existence. The hunting instincts were heightened as a result of selective breeding. Each breed has been selectively bred to give it certain traits.

[Caymus]

Domestic dog breeds are domestic, not wild. There is no "nature" in these breeds. It's all selective breeding (man-made) and training (nurture). Pits are not naturally "aggressive." They are naturally very active working animals and need handlers who will give them plenty of work - and activity. They ALSO need socialization, because they are not bred for socialization. Terriers are hunters; it's instinctual, it isn't their breeding. It is a natural trait in terriers to want to hunt.

If you neglect to give a pit bull enough work, activity, and socialization, it will create its own activity, work, and method of socialization. The end result will not necessarily be pleasant for humans. A pit bull is no different from any other terrier in that it needs to be kept busy within the context of its physical abilities. What makes it different is the physical composition of its jaws. When a wire-haired terrier bites, it draws blood, can damage your arm, but it won't hold onto your arm very long. When a pit bull terrier bites, it latches on and basically has a ratchet-grip on your arm - if you try to pull your arm away you could end up with a missing hand.

I thought all dogs were "domesticated" from wolves. Is that not true?

[Velvet]

I would think there is a continuum between wolves and dogs. Not a sharp delineation of domestication. Some breeds of dogs are much more “independent” and others more “domesticated”. And it even varies in the dogs of the same breed.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

You’re stating that unless a pit bull has just the right attention at just the right time, it’s innate temperament will take over. You’ve made the argument for us that they can never be trusted.

No, I'm stating what I stated. Different types of dogs need different types of stimulation and care. A shepherd thrives on - herding sheep. Go figure. With a lack of sheep, it'll do fine if it can herd other things. Like people. Guarding for and caring for people, that's what they can do best, as domestic pets. A terrier thrives on hunting for things. Actual hunting - or just looking for stuff. Getting out there and chasing after things that run away. That's what they thrive on. If you don't give them that opportunity, you need to give them some similar stimulation. ALL terriers.

Retrievers - to the surprise of no one ever - retrieve things. That's what they do best, what they thrive on doing. They make great search and rescue animals, and terrific frisbee dogs.

Mastiffs are totally awesome for guarding large expansive properties and estate grounds. If you treat a mastiff like a lap dog (as long as he doesn't break your legs in the process) you should expect him to get really grumpy. And when a 150-pound drooling sack of solid muscle gets grumpy, expect your furniture to disappear - chunk by chunk.

Different types of dogs have different types of purposes - and as a result, different types of needs. If you try to treat a pit bull the same way you treat a St. Bernard, you'll end up with a mess. Just like if you expected your 4-pound miniature malti-poo to serve as a guard dog in your 18-room mansion.

Pit bulls are not lap dogs, they're not shepherds, they're not retrievers. They're hunters. They are domesticated animals, and have a lot of energy that has to be put to constructive use. If the dog lashes out, it's because the owner did something wrong. Or because someone intentionally ****ed it off.

[Aces4]

No, I'm stating what I stated. Different types of dogs need different types of stimulation and care. A shepherd thrives on - herding sheep. Go figure. With a lack of sheep, it'll do fine if it can herd other things. Like people. Guarding for and caring for people, that's what they can do best, as domestic pets. A terrier thrives on hunting for things. Actual hunting - or just looking for stuff. Getting out there and chasing after things that run away. That's what they thrive on. If you don't give them that opportunity, you need to give them some similar stimulation. ALL terriers.

Retrievers - to the surprise of no one ever - retrieve things. That's what they do best, what they thrive on doing. They make great search and rescue animals, and terrific frisbee dogs.

Mastiffs are totally awesome for guarding large expansive properties and estate grounds. If you treat a mastiff like a lap dog (as long as he doesn't break your legs in the process) you should expect him to get really grumpy. And when a 150-pound drooling sack of solid muscle gets grumpy, expect your furniture to disappear - chunk by chunk.

Different types of dogs have different types of purposes - and as a result, different types of needs. If you try to treat a pit bull the same way you treat a St. Bernard, you'll end up with a mess. Just like if you expected your 4-pound miniature malti-poo to serve as a guard dog in your 18-room mansion.

Pit bulls are not lap dogs, they're not shepherds, they're not retrievers. They're hunters. They are domesticated animals, and have a lot of energy that has to be put to constructive use. If the dog lashes out, it's because the owner did something wrong. Or because someone intentionally ****ed it off.

Pit bulls are unreliable with powerful, murderous jaws. If you would enjoy one within your walls, that’s your choice.

[fdpaq0580]

[QUOTE=OrangeBlossom

Pit bulls are not lap dogs, they're not shepherds, they're not retrievers. They're hunters. They are domesticated animals, and have a lot of energy that has to be put to constructive use. If the dog lashes out, it's because the owner did something wrong. Or because someone intentionally ****ed it off.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! They are hunters and fearsome guardians and all that power just waiting to go off, like a bottle of nitroglycerin waiting for some disturbance. Great dogs in certain circumstances. But not, imho, the best choice for a family pet in an urban or suburban environment. That bottle of nitro may never go off, but why take a chance?

[Taltarzac725]

People should check how long dogs have been around. Hard to tell how any genetic group will behave under various circumstances. There are probably trillions of genetic permutations involved with various dog breeds.

[Pairadocs]

"People say that Tiger went crazy...

No, that Tiger went TIGER!"


- Chris Rock

EXACTLY, the tiger "went tiger" though raised as a domestic pet. I remember the incident with the killing of the high profile college soccer coach, Dianne Whipple. Killed in the hallway of her own upscale condo while taking groceries to her residence. Said to have been one of the most horrifying homicide sights ever. It's been some time now, but I believe she was attacked by a pair to Presa Canarios "owned" by a couple in the same building who were both very well known, very high profile, criminal defense attorneys. They were keeping the (illegal) dogs for one of their criminal clients who was in prison on charges unrelated to dogs, but he was still running his illegal breeding farm in northern California, and selling of Presas FROM his prison cell in California ! ? ?

[Taltarzac725]

EXACTLY, the tiger "went tiger" though raised as a domestic pet. I remember the incident with the killing of the high profile college soccer coach, Dianne Whipple. Killed in the hallway of her own upscale condo while taking groceries to her residence. Said to have been one of the most horrifying homicide sights ever. It's been some time now, but I believe she was attacked by a pair to Presa Canarios "owned" by a couple in the same building who were both very well known, very high profile, criminal defense attorneys. They were keeping the (illegal) dogs for one of their criminal clients who was in prison on charges unrelated to dogs, but he was still running his illegal breeding farm in northern California, and selling of Presas FROM his prison cell in California ! ? ?

Those seem to be a dangerous breed. With probably a lot of in-breeding. Presa Canario - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presa_Canario)

Presa Demand Grows for All Wrong Reasons / Dogs wanted for killing, fighting (https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Presa-Demand-Grows-for-All-Wrong-Reasons-Dogs-2955237.php)

[JMintzer]

EXACTLY, the tiger "went tiger" though raised as a domestic pet. I remember the incident with the killing of the high profile college soccer coach, Dianne Whipple. Killed in the hallway of her own upscale condo while taking groceries to her residence. Said to have been one of the most horrifying homicide sights ever. It's been some time now, but I believe she was attacked by a pair to Presa Canarios "owned" by a couple in the same building who were both very well known, very high profile, criminal defense attorneys. They were keeping the (illegal) dogs for one of their criminal clients who was in prison on charges unrelated to dogs, but he was still running his illegal breeding farm in northern California, and selling of Presas FROM his prison cell in California ! ? ?

Tigers have not been domesticated for thousands of years like dogs have been...

Bad analogy...

[Spalumbos62]

you called me out, citing a post i made to someone else...

And yes, you are a "post counter". You've commented on "how many posts" people have in threads on multiple occasions. You do it as a way to discredit them...

Don't play the innocent victim...

please stop!!!! So childish, there are more people on this beside you. Ty

[ThirdOfFive]

When you talk "breed" and " instinct", that is nature. Breeding is human directing and using
nature to enhance or diminish certain natural attributes. Not exactly "man-made"
"Terriers are hunters; it's instinctual, it isn't their breeding. It is a natural trait in terriers to want to hunt". Sorry, but the fact that terriers exist is because they were bred into existence. The hunting instincts were heightened as a result of selective breeding. Each breed has been selectively bred to give it certain traits.
Agreed. Pit bulls were originally bred for two things: bull baiting and dog fighting. Their build and temperament was NOT a random act of nature.

But...bottom line...A breed that makes up a mere 6% of the canine population in America is responsible for fully TWO THIRDS of all human deaths by dog(s), as well as the majority of dog bite cases needing treatment. The pit bull breed is inherently dangerous. That is enough proof for me. As it should be for just about anybody.

[fdpaq0580]

Agreed. Pit bulls were originally bred for two things: bull baiting and dog fighting. Their build and temperament was NOT a random act of nature.

But...bottom line...A breed that makes up a mere 6% of the canine population in America is responsible for fully TWO THIRDS of all human deaths by dog(s), as well as the majority of dog bite cases needing treatment. The pit bull breed is inherently dangerous. That is enough proof for me. As it should be for just about anybody.

Agree!

[ThirdOfFive]

Tigers have not been domesticated for thousands of years like dogs have been...

Bad analogy...
Actually I do not think that there are ANY domesticated tigers. A few have been tamed. And a few of those that were tamed had instinct take over and did in their owners.

Truth is, there is no animal (except maybe manatees) that are 100% trustworthy and safe for humans to be around. One has to objectively evaluate the danger and act accordingly. As a kid growing up in the wilds of Northern Minnesota we had a lot of pets: wild animals that had been (more or less) tamed and who hung out with us including deer, porcupines, skunks, woodchucks, hawks, squirrels, chipmunks, bears, Canada geese, etc. etc. But all of them had traits that made them, to a greater or lesser degree, dangerous. A "tame" squirrel can deliver a pretty good bite if they feel threatened, as my brother found out when he tried to stuff a "tame" squirrel into his pocket. One of the worst animal bites I suffered was from a "pet" shrew, a critter maybe 2" long. Bit my finger when I was feeding it a grasshopper. The finger as well as part of my hand was red and swollen for well over a week.

Dogs are no different. Each species carries risks to their human owners. A sensible person evaluates those risks and acts accordingly.

[JMintzer]

please stop!!!! So childish, there are more people on this beside you. Ty

Please read the thread before responding. I have already apologized publicly for my actions...

[JMintzer]

Actually I do not think that there are ANY domesticated tigers. A few have been tamed. And a few of those that were tamed had instinct take over and did in their owners.

Truth is, there is no animal (except maybe manatees) that are 100% trustworthy and safe for humans to be around. One has to objectively evaluate the danger and act accordingly. As a kid growing up in the wilds of Northern Minnesota we had a lot of pets: wild animals that had been (more or less) tamed and who hung out with us including deer, porcupines, skunks, woodchucks, hawks, squirrels, chipmunks, bears, Canada geese, etc. etc. But all of them had traits that made them, to a greater or lesser degree, dangerous. A "tame" squirrel can deliver a pretty good bite if they feel threatened, as my brother found out when he tried to stuff a "tame" squirrel into his pocket. One of the worst animal bites I suffered was from a "pet" shrew, a critter maybe 2" long. Bit my finger when I was feeding it a grasshopper. The finger as well as part of my hand was red and swollen for well over a week.

Dogs are no different. Each species carries risks to their human owners. A sensible person evaluates those risks and acts accordingly.

No sure why you're responding to me, but I said the same thing about tigers not being domesticated...