Southwest Airlines = Dumpster Fire

[NoMo50]

Southwest Airlines has cancelled about 3,000 flights during the post-Christmas travel rush. This included a Thursday flight family members were on leaving out of Orlando. A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st. Of all airline cancellations, Southwest is accounting for nearly 75% of the total.

Calls to Southwest "customer service" number were met with either busy signals, or immediate disconnection. We could not even get the privilege of being placed on hold for hours. Fortunately, we were able to book our family members on an American Airlines flight before the inevitable price gouging kicked in. The same flight we booked our kids on 3 hours ago is now showing fares SIX TIMES what we booked for.

Southwest has made press comments with a wide variety of excuses for these mass cancellations. However, I have not seen "bad management" mentioned a single time by the airline. I feel bad for the thousands of travelers stuck around the country who are trying to get home. Southwest Airlines truly is the Grinch who stole Christmas.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Southwest Airlines has cancelled about 3,000 flights during the post-Christmas travel rush. This included a Thursday flight family members were on leaving out of Orlando. A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st. Of all airline cancellations, Southwest is accounting for nearly 75% of the total.

Calls to Southwest "customer service" number were met with either busy signals, or immediate disconnection. We could not even get the privilege of being placed on hold for hours. Fortunately, we were able to book our family members on an American Airlines flight before the inevitable price gouging kicked in. The same flight we booked our kids on 3 hours ago is now showing fares SIX TIMES what we booked for.

Southwest has made press comments with a wide variety of excuses for these mass cancellations. However, I have not seen "bad management" mentioned a single time by the airline. I feel bad for the thousands of travelers stuck around the country who are trying to get home. Southwest Airlines truly is the Grinch who stole Christmas.

While management of communications is a big problem they need to fix, I have heard "reasons" rather than "excuses."

Logistics is a huge deal.

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out. Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

You have planes NOT coming from shut-down airports, and planes NOT going to shut-down airports, and you have an entire airline that is blocked from travel.

[NoMo50]

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out.

At some level, your logic might be sound. But...why is it only affecting Southwest? Flights were available from American, Delta, etc. They have planes coming from the north, as well. The Southwest website was, as of this morning, showing NO flights out of Orlando for the next FOUR days. ZERO flights. SWA seems to be the only airline affected to this extreme.

[Aces4]

While management of communications is a big problem they need to fix, I have heard "reasons" rather than "excuses."

Logistics is a huge deal.

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out. Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

You have planes NOT coming from shut-down airports, and planes NOT going to shut-down airports, and you have an entire airline that is blocked from travel.


Precisely. This was a mass storm in areas primarily served by Southwest and then you have John Q Public, who is well aware of the mess, going to the airports regardlessly and thinking their’s will be the flight that magically will happen. Air carriers offered to allow people to change their tickets to another time because of the severe weather for a reason. If you don’t live near family and are subject to possible blizzards around Christmas, common sense should tell you that some years your travel won’t happen. We love Southwest but do wish seats were assigned when booking.

[Battlebasset]

Don't fly around Thanksgiving or Christmas/New Years. If you can't drive it, tell the kids you will see them before/after. Turkey tastes the same regardless of the day.

[Babubhat]

At least they are reimbursing expenses. The hazard of holiday travel

[keepsake]

Last time I checked Southwest was the only airline to give its travelers two free pieces of luggage. Could this be their undoing.
When you use another airline you downsize to maybe take one checked (paid for) piece of luggage. Or shove stuff in a carry on.

It seems ironic the airlines that charge an arm and a leg for baggage, don’t have the luggage issue from all the weather delays?

[Whitley]

While management of communications is a big problem they need to fix, I have heard "reasons" rather than "excuses."

Logistics is a huge deal.

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out. Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

You have planes NOT coming from shut-down airports, and planes NOT going to shut-down airports, and you have an entire airline that is blocked from travel.


Does SW have a hub in Chicago? I had thought SW did not have a central hub, saying their system avoided a chain effect of cancellations when bad weather hit a hub.
Why was SW effected more than other carriers OR does SW account for 75% of flight leaving Orlando? Have have not done any statistical analysis, but if they made up 75% of flight cancellations from Orlando it would appear they have a flaw in their operations (assuming their % of cancelled flights does not coincide with their total % of departing flights.

[retiredguy123]

I would never fly on Southwest because they won't give me an assigned seat. I want an assigned seat, and once I sit down, I'm not moving, except to first class. I don't care who wants to sit next to someone else. So, there!

[tvbound]

We "Luv" Southwest, but I believe this is mostly a self-inflicted wound. Yes, the combinations of the horrible weather and that they don't operate a Hub/Spoke system (crews typically back to one location), are probably partly to blame. However, it's their antiquated reservation system that can't keep up with all of the currently spread out crews and planes - that is most likely the primary culprit.

I really hope they get their issues squared away soon, as I much prefer to use them when not going too far. On long flights however, nothing beats...sitting way up front. lol

[Caymus]

At least from the Northeast to Orlando, Southwest seems to operate magical medical flights. People board from wheelchairs but somehow, they are "healed" during the flight and are the first to run off on their own power. It couldn't have anything to do with jumping the boarding line, could it?:icon_wink::icon_wink::icon_wink:

[Babubhat]

Airlines are at capacity. This shall pass regardless of emotions. And it will occur in the future.

Swa has bulk of Mco flights. Few alternatives

[retiredguy123]

I hate to say it, but I think the airlines have become too efficient at filling every seat. Maybe the Federal Government should require airlines to leave 10 percent of the seats empty to allow some flexibility for cancelled flights, etc. Also, I think all bags should be checked. No carry-on luggage in overhead bins.

[GpaVader]

I love flying SW. I get two checked bags for free, but you still get the idiots that have to try and carry on everything. I don't get a seat assignment, but I get to pick whatever open seat is there once I board. If you want to improve your odds of getting a better seat, pay a few dollars more for Early Bird. Most of the other carriers will only give you a middle seat unless you pay for a window or isle seat. I am also not nickeled and dimed to death for a carry on if I have one. Most carriers are charging $30 for your first checked bag, add that to the price of your ticket when comparing.

Actually, SW has a spoke and hub system. They are based out of Dallas, they have hubs all over the place in Phoenix, Chicago Midway, DC I think but they are all around the country. I only know this because of where I can get direct flights...

So while no airline is perfect, and they all show their Worts from time to time, they tend to have great people working the flights. That's just been my experience.

[Babubhat]

A list and the companion pass make them special

[justjim]

Last time I checked Southwest was the only airline to give its travelers two free pieces of luggage. Could this be their undoing.
When you use another airline you downsize to maybe take one checked (paid for) piece of luggage. Or shove stuff in a carry on.

It seems ironic the airlines that charge an arm and a leg for baggage, don’t have the luggage issue from all the weather delays?

Spot on. A poor management decision SW made regarding luggage IMHO. Their stock has crashed too.

[Aces4]

Last time I checked Southwest was the only airline to give its travelers two free pieces of luggage. Could this be their undoing.
When you use another airline you downsize to maybe take one checked (paid for) piece of luggage. Or shove stuff in a carry on.

It seems ironic the airlines that charge an arm and a leg for baggage, don’t have the luggage issue from all the weather delays?


Ironic? Wouldn’t common sense tell us that other airline travelers couldn’t bring the luggage they wanted? How many of those other airline travelers had to ship and pay extra to move their luggage contents where they wanted them?

This was one of those freak weather events combined with some of the biggest flying days of the year. It will all be sorted out and be something our children and grandchildren will remember. I’m amazed how people packed their medications in luggage.

They can go after Southwest and fold them, but then look at the mess we’re left with afterward.

[NewtoFL]

I understand weather plays a big part in the problems with flying but it’s more than that. Two of my kids had two flights cancelled trying to fly home from here. Then Delta put them on a flight with two stops when the original flight was non stop. I spent 2.5 hours on hold with Delta on Christmas Eve. I finally hung up. We went in to the airport in Orlando to try to get a ticket agent to help. They had no flights available in the next four days. They threw their hands up. Nothing they could do. Told me to call for a refund as they can’t issue them. My kids are flying home today on Spirit. I never thought I would see the days when Spirit did a better job than Delta. All airlines need to quite overselling their flights. There is no option when flights get cancelled. I wish the Transportation Secretary would do his job and hold these airlines accountable.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I understand weather plays a big part in the problems with flying but it’s more than that. Two of my kids had two flights cancelled trying to fly home from here. Then Delta put them on a flight with two stops when the original flight was non stop. I spent 2.5 hours on hold with Delta on Christmas Eve. I finally hung up. We went in to the airport in Orlando to try to get a ticket agent to help. They had no flights available in the next four days. They threw their hands up. Nothing they could do. Told me to call for a refund as they can’t issue them. My kids are flying home today on Spirit. I never thought I would see the days when Spirit did a better job than Delta. All airlines need to quite overselling their flights. There is no option when flights get cancelled. I wish the Transportation Secretary would do his job and hold these airlines accountable.

I can't imagine why there would be any problem at all on the busiest weekend of the year, during massive nationwide storms. And with Christmas being on a Sunday - it means most "christmas visiting" travel will be on a Friday or Saturday - already the busiest days of the week, even when there's no holiday and perfect weather.

And all of this - hitting a particular airline that offers the most popular flights to Orlando from - everywhere that airline comes FROM, to get to Orlando.

Nah it can't possibly be a COMBINATION of things. It must - absolutely - be Southwest's fault, and no other possible factor added in.

/sarcasm

[Aces4]

I understand weather plays a big part in the problems with flying but it’s more than that. Two of my kids had two flights cancelled trying to fly home from here. Then Delta put them on a flight with two stops when the original flight was non stop. I spent 2.5 hours on hold with Delta on Christmas Eve. I finally hung up. We went in to the airport in Orlando to try to get a ticket agent to help. They had no flights available in the next four days. They threw their hands up. Nothing they could do. Told me to call for a refund as they can’t issue them. My kids are flying home today on Spirit. I never thought I would see the days when Spirit did a better job than Delta. All airlines need to quite overselling their flights. There is no option when flights get cancelled. I wish the Transportation Secretary would do his job and hold these airlines accountable.


I’m not trying to be mean here, but what the heck…do people live under rocks? The possibility of the severity of this storm was forecasted over seven days before it hit. We weren’t flying anywhere but thought we’d change plans in a hurry if we were.

Where is the personal responsibility for poor planning? Airlines offered to reschedule flights to another time for no charge. This whole mess is because of the poor decision of travelers not to postpone their party.

[golfing eagles]

I can't imagine why there would be any problem at all on the busiest weekend of the year, during massive nationwide storms. And with Christmas being on a Sunday - it means most "christmas visiting" travel will be on a Friday or Saturday - already the busiest days of the week, even when there's no holiday and perfect weather.

And all of this - hitting a particular airline that offers the most popular flights to Orlando from - everywhere that airline comes FROM, to get to Orlando.

Nah it can't possibly be a COMBINATION of things. It must - absolutely - be Southwest's fault, and no other possible factor added in.

/sarcasm

All true, EXCEPT.......

It wasn't just Orlando, Southwest cancelled over 3,000 flights Monday representing half of all cancellations GLOBALLY. Meanwhile, American Airlines had 17, yes 17 cancellations that day (but they had over 700 delays). The son of a friend of ours is a pilot for Southwest, apparently, they weren't in the locations they needed to be, but hours of flying time was not an issue. He also stated there was a rumor among employees that they had been hacked. So there may be more to the story

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

All true, EXCEPT.......

It wasn't just Orlando, Southwest cancelled over 3,000 flights Monday representing half of all cancellations GLOBALLY. Meanwhile, American Airlines had 17, yes 17 cancellations that day (but they had over 700 delays). The son of a friend of ours is a pilot for Southwest, apparently, they weren't in the locations they needed to be, but hours of flying time was not an issue. He also stated there was a rumor among employees that they had been hacked. So there may be more to the story

The bolded underlined part is - pretty important. If they're not where they need to be, then they can't get to where they're supposed to go. That's basically the underlying problem in this current situation. The planes weren't where they needed to be, in order to get where they were going. A plane can't just take off from wherever it happens to be and go to whatever destination the airline wants it to go to, spontaneously.

It requires flight plan changes, which change the entire pattern in the skies of ALL planes flying in any given area at any given moment. One plane taking off from the wrong place at the wrong time can spell disaster. It is a very carefully coordinated process.

[Babubhat]

Crews and planes out of position. That will never change. Crews need rest but to time them out for sitting in airport idle for delays needs to be resolved. They have private rest areas to recharge which could dramatically improve performance

[golfing eagles]

The bolded underlined part is - pretty important. If they're not where they need to be, then they can't get to where they're supposed to go. That's basically the underlying problem in this current situation. The planes weren't where they needed to be, in order to get where they were going. A plane can't just take off from wherever it happens to be and go to whatever destination the airline wants it to go to, spontaneously.

It requires flight plan changes, which change the entire pattern in the skies of ALL planes flying in any given area at any given moment. One plane taking off from the wrong place at the wrong time can spell disaster. It is a very carefully coordinated process.

Agree. And apparently Southwest has a somewhat outdated system for accomplishing this, which therefore might also have some security vulnerabilities. We may learn more, and then again, we might not. Meanwhile my wife had a flight back from New England this evening, which was cancelled YESTERDAY morning. She is now looking at Saturday, if all goes well. Less than an hour after she grabbed that Saturday flight, Jan 3 became the earliest available.

[tophcfa]

Southwest used to be our go to for many years before Covid. All the airlines obviously suffered during the early Covid times, but unlike the other airlines that seemed to get their act back together, Southwest never got back to anywhere close to where they were before. They used to always have more non stop flight options, very competitive prices, and a decent cancellation/delay record versus other airlines. These days Southwest seems to have way fewer non stop flight options, very expensive fares, and a horrible on time/cancellation record. In my opinion, JetBlue eats Southwests lunch these days. It sucks for us as we have about a quarter million unused Southwest travel points that we are reluctant to use. We stopped using our Southwest credit cards a couple years ago as the points no longer have much value to us. We actually preferred Southwest’s no seat assignment boarding policy when flying to/from Orlando. We liked boarding AFTER Southwest allowed families with kids to board, that way we could select seats that weren’t close to screaming and kicking kids wearing mouse ears. Southwest has gone sooooo far downhill their performance is beyond excuses, it’s got to be BAD MANAGEMENT.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Agree. And apparently Southwest has a somewhat outdated system for accomplishing this, which therefore might also have some security vulnerabilities. We may learn more, and then again, we might not. Meanwhile my wife had a flight back from New England this evening, which was cancelled YESTERDAY morning. She is now looking at Saturday, if all goes well. Less than an hour after she grabbed that Saturday flight, Jan 3 became the earliest available.

I have a friend trying to get from Georgia to Colorado, and his flight was cancelled. He got a new flight, and THAT one was cancelled. The earliest he can get home by air, now, is Saturday. So he's decided to rent a car and drive. He'll be home by Thursday night.

[justjim]

Heads should roll at Southwest Airlines starting with the CEO and on down the line.

[djlnc]

Heads should roll at Southwest Airlines starting with the CEO and on down the line.

There is a relatively new CEO at SW and he is not very popular. SW management may be partly to blame for this mess. When there is a weather event like a major hurricane coming they act proactively to shut down airports. They knew this blizzard was coming...I don't whether they could have done a better job to prepare for it.

[WharfRat]

Southwest Airlines has cancelled about 3,000 flights during the post-Christmas travel rush. This included a Thursday flight family members were on leaving out of Orlando. A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st. Of all airline cancellations, Southwest is accounting for nearly 75% of the total.

Calls to Southwest "customer service" number were met with either busy signals, or immediate disconnection. We could not even get the privilege of being placed on hold for hours. Fortunately, we were able to book our family members on an American Airlines flight before the inevitable price gouging kicked in. The same flight we booked our kids on 3 hours ago is now showing fares SIX TIMES what we booked for.

Southwest has made press comments with a wide variety of excuses for these mass cancellations. However, I have not seen "bad management" mentioned a single time by the airline. I feel bad for the thousands of travelers stuck around the country who are trying to get home. Southwest Airlines truly is the Grinch who stole Christmas.

Good analysis here:

Flight cancellations: Why Southwest Airlines is melting down | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/27/business/southwest-airlines-service-meltdown/index.html)

[Harold.wiser]

While management of communications is a big problem they need to fix, I have heard "reasons" rather than "excuses."

Logistics is a huge deal.

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out. Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

You have planes NOT coming from shut-down airports, and planes NOT going to shut-down airports, and you have an entire airline that is blocked from travel.

Yeah, because before the media invented "climate change" we never, ever had snow storms. Gimme a break!

[gpower52]

Southwest Airlines has cancelled about 3,000 flights during the post-Christmas travel rush. This included a Thursday flight family members were on leaving out of Orlando. A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st. Of all airline cancellations, Southwest is accounting for nearly 75% of the total.

Calls to Southwest "customer service" number were met with either busy signals, or immediate disconnection. We could not even get the privilege of being placed on hold for hours. Fortunately, we were able to book our family members on an American Airlines flight before the inevitable price gouging kicked in. The same flight we booked our kids on 3 hours ago is now showing fares SIX TIMES what we booked for.

Southwest has made press comments with a wide variety of excuses for these mass cancellations. However, I have not seen "bad management" mentioned a single time by the airline. I feel bad for the thousands of travelers stuck around the country who are trying to get home. Southwest Airlines truly is the Grinch who stole Christmas.

I didn't check ALL SW flights out of Orlando, but we're going to Aruba on 8 Jan so have checked both yesterday and today to see "how they were doing" getting these flights out of Orlando (There is only 1 flight per day) and BOTH flights yesterday and today were on time....so SOME flights apparently are still getting out....just FYI.

[Larchap49]

Southwest Airlines has cancelled about 3,000 flights during the post-Christmas travel rush. This included a Thursday flight family members were on leaving out of Orlando. A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st. Of all airline cancellations, Southwest is accounting for nearly 75% of the total.

Calls to Southwest "customer service" number were met with either busy signals, or immediate disconnection. We could not even get the privilege of being placed on hold for hours. Fortunately, we were able to book our family members on an American Airlines flight before the inevitable price gouging kicked in. The same flight we booked our kids on 3 hours ago is now showing fares SIX TIMES what we booked for.

Southwest has made press comments with a wide variety of excuses for these mass cancellations. However, I have not seen "bad management" mentioned a single time by the airline. I feel bad for the thousands of travelers stuck around the country who are trying to get home. Southwest Airlines truly is the Grinch who stole Christmas.

Same with us. Rebooked for Sunday but a real inconvenience for them and their ride on the other end. This also happened to us in the summer when two non stops were cancelled and replaced with flights with stops and lay overs. Southwest definitely has some problems.

[Larchap49]

I understand weather plays a big part in the problems with flying but it’s more than that. Two of my kids had two flights cancelled trying to fly home from here. Then Delta put them on a flight with two stops when the original flight was non stop. I spent 2.5 hours on hold with Delta on Christmas Eve. I finally hung up. We went in to the airport in Orlando to try to get a ticket agent to help. They had no flights available in the next four days. They threw their hands up. Nothing they could do. Told me to call for a refund as they can’t issue them. My kids are flying home today on Spirit. I never thought I would see the days when Spirit did a better job than Delta. All airlines need to quite overselling their flights. There is no option when flights get cancelled. I wish the Transportation Secretary would do his job and hold these airlines accountable.

Until the government stops subsidizing the airlines they have no incentive to correct the problems

[DPWM21]

C’mon train service.

[talonip]

While management of communications is a big problem they need to fix, I have heard "reasons" rather than "excuses."

Logistics is a huge deal.

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out. Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

You have planes NOT coming from shut-down airports, and planes NOT going to shut-down airports, and you have an entire airline that is blocked from travel.
I am an ex airline pilot and your summation is excellent. Most people think every airline has extra airplanes just sitting around. Weather is the culprit here not the airlines. Flight crews are scattered around the system at closed airports and airplanes are too. Airlines are part of one of the most complicated businesses in the world

[NotGolfer]

I guess the folks who think this could have been remedied didn't pay attention to the news re: the blizzard. The winds were high with the snow and white-out conditions were happening. Whole interstate systems (in the midwest at least were closed to traffic) with people dying who didn't believe the fore-cast and ventured out anyway then got stuck. THAT was on the ground. Factor in that air-travel and I guess I'd be happy they cancelled rather than to "try" to fly. We're "enjoying" the cold here because of that Artic blast that enveloped the rest of the country. IF people are making it out and to their destinations, then I'd say they're fortunate---if not, lucky. We're from the upper midwest and the storm there was pretty significant. Drifts were measured in feet as were the snow depths....rather than inches. There were power outages throughout the states as well. Couple ALL of this with the holiday---then you have what this discussion is about!!

[dnobles]

We got canceled 2xs from Albany NY. There were several families trying to get to Disney sad. Kids crying. We at least could go back to our sons. We can’t get home until Monday.

[talonip]

I am an ex American airline pilot. Retired after 33 years. Those of you that think SWA is the problem are wrong. Some of you have commented that American and all the other other airlines are on time and doing a great job. Nothing could be more false. I m in STL trying to get back to mco. on any airline including American. Everything is either cancelled or overbooked. I finally found a ticket on Frontier Friday. You have no idea of the complexity of the airline business the airlines don’t just have extra airplanes sitting around and air crews. They are scattered around the system. Schedulers are pulling their hair out trying to rebuild the system. Folks it is the weather, closed airports and many other factors that have created this. It’s not Southwest and it’s baggage policy. I fly SWA all the time. Love them.

[Conniehar]

There is a post going around social media from a SWA pilot. Blaming this on their antiquated system going down. I believe this. There is no reason why most of the planes and crew could not be back in place on Monday. Cancel all the flights and get everything back in place. I am A list and have companion pass. Once my points and pass expire, I will probably look elsewhere. Have already stopped using my credit card. I definitely will never book them around a busy holiday.

[dnobles]

He’s lucky in Albany Ny there are no one way rentals

[Whitley]

Until the government stops subsidizing the airlines they have no incentive to correct the problems

Spirit provides live in flight entertainment.

[Singerlady]

Southwest Airlines has cancelled about 3,000 flights during the post-Christmas travel rush. This included a Thursday flight family members were on leaving out of Orlando. A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st. Of all airline cancellations, Southwest is accounting for nearly 75% of the total.

Calls to Southwest "customer service" number were met with either busy signals, or immediate disconnection. We could not even get the privilege of being placed on hold for hours. Fortunately, we were able to book our family members on an American Airlines flight before the inevitable price gouging kicked in. The same flight we booked our kids on 3 hours ago is now showing fares SIX TIMES what we booked for.

Southwest has made press comments with a wide variety of excuses for these mass cancellations. However, I have not seen "bad management" mentioned a single time by the airline. I feel bad for the thousands of travelers stuck around the country who are trying to get home. Southwest Airlines truly is the Grinch who stole Christmas.
Logistics, logistics, logistics. After big storms, etc..it takes AT LEAST 48 hours to get the planes and personnel back in place to resume normal operations. The airlines can only do so much. Frankly, people traveling over this holiday should have EXPECTED not to GET to their destination or BACK to their home without some glitches. Those that had no glitches were lucky. It’s called Mother Nature =weather.

[Boffin]

Software glitch.

[Tvflguy]

Love SWA.

But yikes. Especially them, but all airlines. This storm was forecast even tho its strength up northeast was worse than that. Of course airline logistics is a science and art. One would think that pre-positioning aircraft and staff may have lessened the issue. But still days after it’s a clusterF.

Just so thankful that we stayed home but all those impacted, still - awful.

Nice to know that our gvt is handling the issues so well. Typical blabber and yada.

[NoMo50]

I believe everyone gets that weather was the impetus that pushed this snowball down the hill. But...I ask again, why is it only Southwest that has been devastated to the current extent? Southwest accounted for 80% of all airline cancellations on Monday, and an unbelievable 99% of all cancellations for today, Wednesday. If all airlines were equally affected, the weather bogeyman would not be pointing its finger at just one carrier.

The current president of Southwest's pilot union blamed the company's antiquated scheduling software for the meltdown. Their system, apparently a relic from the 90's, relies on technology based on phone lines, and once the first domino fell, the system was doomed to fail. The failure of their scheduling system affected everything from customer service calls, to crew scheduling, and everything in between. I'm sure this event will trigger a response from the company to update their system, but a rebuild like that will not happen overnight. In the meantime, there are other air carrier choices.

[Carlsondm]

While management of communications is a big problem they need to fix, I have heard "reasons" rather than "excuses."

Logistics is a huge deal.

In order for planes to leave out of Orlando, there has to be planes IN Orlando. Those planes were coming from the north - where airports have been shut down. No planes = no flights out. Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

You have planes NOT coming from shut-down airports, and planes NOT going to shut-down airports, and you have an entire airline that is blocked from travel.
This is a weather event, not climate change. Logistics and location of the airline hub caused further problems. Major headache.

[Aces4]

I am an ex American airline pilot. Retired after 33 years. Those of you that think SWA is the problem are wrong. Some of you have commented that American and all the other other airlines are on time and doing a great job. Nothing could be more false. I m in STL trying to get back to mco. on any airline including American. Everything is either cancelled or overbooked. I finally found a ticket on Frontier Friday. You have no idea of the complexity of the airline business the airlines don’t just have extra airplanes sitting around and air crews. They are scattered around the system. Schedulers are pulling their hair out trying to rebuild the system. Folks it is the weather, closed airports and many other factors that have created this. It’s not Southwest and it’s baggage policy. I fly SWA all the time. Love them.

The public just doesn’t get it though, do they? They couldn’t figure out that they should just stay home for this holiday due to a huge threatening weather front. They’d rather blame the airlines for their own poor judgment.

[Aces4]

We got canceled 2xs from Albany NY. There were several families trying to get to Disney sad. Kids crying. We at least could go back to our sons. We can’t get home until Monday.

One has to wonder what kind of parents would subject their children to flying while the states were facing this dangerous storm front. Disney is supposed to be there for a while yet.

[contiki98]

A check of the SWA website showed ZERO flights leaving Orlando until Saturday, December 31st.

That is interesting because I flew Southwest out of Orlando on Tuesday, 12/28. There were many flights coming and going. And yes, I know, I was one of the lucky ones.

[justjim]

The public just doesn’t get it though, do they? They couldn’t figure out that they should just stay home for this holiday due to a huge threatening weather front. They’d rather blame the airlines for their own poor judgment.

Last time we flew during the Holidays was about 10-12years ago. Parking lots at the airport were full so had to park miles away and shuttle. We thought we might miss our flight. Nope, it was cancelled. We were lucky got another one hours later. Not much fun. From that miserable experience we learn not to fly just before a holiday. Prior to retiring I was stranded in Chicago O’hare during a snowstorm and I can identify with those travelers stranded this past weekend. No fun at all.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I am an ex airline pilot and your summation is excellent. Most people think every airline has extra airplanes just sitting around. Weather is the culprit here not the airlines. Flight crews are scattered around the system at closed airports and airplanes are too. Airlines are part of one of the most complicated businesses in the world

Back when I was a "professional temp" (long-term Kelly Girl), I had an assignment working for the Chief Pilot at USAir at BOS (Logan Int'l in Boston). One of my daily tasks was putting the daily flight change sheet in the mail slots in the attendants' room, and replacing the previous with the new in each pilots' binder.

You learn a lot being the CP's secretary for four months.

[keepsake]

Did one plane crash in the last week ? Did anybody die ? There is much to be thankful then.
So many regulations come from GOVT. It is more than ever before, no bureaucrat ever cancels a regulation. The minute the weather gets bad and travelers max out, there will be dissatisfaction galore.

[pokeefe45@aol.com]

I think I might have a unique perspective on this topic. I am a very frequent flier on Southwest for more than 20 years, an 'A' lister and have a companion pass that allows my wife to travel free with me wherever and whenever I fly Southwest-Which is quite a bit.
I was booked to fly from Manchester, NH to Orlando to return home to TV on the 26th. Drove 2 hours from Mount Washington to the airport on the day after Xmas to catch our flight home.
No text or status update was sent to me (which happens all the time on SW to me)-no emails-no notification-just had to show up at the airport to find my flight cancelled. Not typically the way SW operates.
To those of you who are 'blubbering' on about the weather and why didn't we know or understand-that's 'smallmindedness' at it's best. The weather was cleared by the 26th in most parts of the country-with some exceptions like Denver and Buffalo-And I WILL always travel to see family at Xmas-no matter what the weather-so factoring in a delay or disruption here and there is normal. But NEVER have I been exposed to SW Air not being able to give me ANY alternatives for 4 days to get back to Florida. Nothing till the 30th they told me. Not from Manchester or Boston, or Providence or even New York. Finally after about an hour of continually asking different questions, my wife and I were booked on a plane from Baltimore to Orlando the next evening. NO flight from Manchester to Baltimore existed with availability, so we rented a car and DROVE 9 hours to the Baltimore airport-stopping at a hotel to grab a few hours of midday sleep. Quite a taxing ordeal, to say the least. AND we are one of the lucky ones who were able to take matters into our own hands and come up with a viable solution-Even if it did mean an all night drive down the East Coast (The Vince Lombardi Turnpike near NYC on the NJ Turnpike at 2 AM is an amazingly scary experience).
To say I am disappointed with my airline of choice is an understatement. To say I was let down is mild. I am beyond belief at the way they handled the whole fiasco. I believed in their culture-the fun aspect of their company-the philanthropy-THIS WAS NOT A WEATHER issue-As many have stated prior-It was a failure of SWA to invest in technology that was sorely needed to update their scheduling process. People scheduling, flight scheduling, crew scheduling and plane location scheduling. SWA bought back over $5 billion of their own stock in the recent years, rather than reinvesting in their business, according to reports. They will now pay DEARLY for that. They have lost my confidence-They owe me money-and my $500 will only a drop in the bucket compared to what Buttigieg will go after them for in total. I'm not even sure they will survive this period in their company's history. My only hope is that they survive till the end of 2023,which is when my companion pass will expire, because I'm not spending another dime of real money with them!

[Caymus]

I think I might have a unique perspective on this topic. I am a very frequent flier on Southwest for more than 20 years, an 'A' lister and have a companion pass that allows my wife to travel free with me wherever and whenever I fly Southwest-Which is quite a bit.
I was booked to fly from Manchester, NH to Orlando to return home to TV on the 26th. Drove 2 hours from Mount Washington to the airport on the day after Xmas to catch our flight home.
No text or status update was sent to me (which happens all the time on SW to me)-no emails-no notification-just had to show up at the airport to find my flight cancelled. Not typically the way SW operates.
To those of you who are 'blubbering' on about the weather and why didn't we know or understand-that's 'smallmindedness' at it's best. The weather was cleared by the 26th in most parts of the country-with some exceptions like Denver and Buffalo-And I WILL always travel to see family at Xmas-no matter what the weather-so factoring in a delay or disruption here and there is normal. But NEVER have I been exposed to SW Air not being able to give me ANY alternatives for 4 days to get back to Florida. Nothing till the 30th they told me. Not from Manchester or Boston, or Providence or even New York. Finally after about an hour of continually asking different questions, my wife and I were booked on a plane from Baltimore to Orlando the next evening. NO flight from Manchester to Baltimore existed with availability, so we rented a car and DROVE 9 hours to the Baltimore airport-stopping at a hotel to grab a few hours of midday sleep. Quite a taxing ordeal, to say the least. AND we are one of the lucky ones who were able to take matters into our own hands and come up with a viable solution-Even if it did mean an all night drive down the East Coast (The Vince Lombardi Turnpike near NYC on the NJ Turnpike at 2 AM is an amazingly scary experience).
To say I am disappointed with my airline of choice is an understatement. To say I was let down is mild. I am beyond belief at the way they handled the whole fiasco. I believed in their culture-the fun aspect of their company-the philanthropy-THIS WAS NOT A WEATHER issue-As many have stated prior-It was a failure of SWA to invest in technology that was sorely needed to update their scheduling process. People scheduling, flight scheduling, crew scheduling and plane location scheduling. SWA bought back over $5 billion of their own stock in the recent years, rather than reinvesting in their business, according to reports. They will now pay DEARLY for that. They have lost my confidence-They owe me money-and my $500 will only a drop in the bucket compared to what Buttigieg will go after them for in total. I'm not even sure they will survive this period in their company's history. My only hope is that they survive till the end of 2023,which is when my companion pass will expire, because I'm not spending another dime of real money with them!

So, the government will punish them, and they will raise ticket prices to survive. That will allow other airlines to follow suit and raise prices. The result will be higher prices for the average passenger.

[blueash]

Southwest per the CNN link above is still using technology for its phones, IT etc that are well out of date and has caused issues in the past. A few years ago there was a large tax cut for corporations so they could invest in new products and modernization. What did they do with this windfall? Many US corporations chose to use this new money to buy back their own stock which pushes the stock price up and rewards investors only, no benefit to consumers.

As travelers and airline workers reel from mass flight cancellations, a corporate watchdog noted Wednesday that Southwest spent nearly $6 billion on stock buybacks in the years ahead of the coronavirus pandemic instead of devoting those resources to technological improvements that unions have been demanding for years.

According to Accountable.US, the crisis Southwest has experienced in recent days amid a massive winter storm is "a problem of its own making." The organization pointed out that the airline opted "to spend $5.6 billion on stock buybacks in the three years leading up to the pandemic rather than making investments in infrastructure to be better prepared for extreme weather events like this week."

Quick now, who made this highly critical comment about airlines using tax cuts to push up their stock price instead of investing in workers and infrastructure:

“When we did a big tax cut, and when they took the money and did buybacks, that’s not building a hangar, that’s not buying aircraft, that’s not doing the kind of things that I want them to do. We didn’t think we would have had to restrict it because we thought they would have known better. But they didn’t know better, in some cases.”

Many had in fact predicted that the huge tax cuts would go right into the pockets of corporations and stay there rather than be used to benefit the non-stockholders. Surprising fact:

The huge 'blackout' that may be deepening market turbulence | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/14/investing/stocks-week-ahead-buybacks-dow-jones/index.html)

The biggest buyer of stocks between 2009 and 2018 was not individual investors, was not institutional investors... it was corporations buying their own stocks, 4.3 TRILLION dollars in buybacks.

[blueash]

So many regulations come from GOVT. It is more than ever before, no bureaucrat ever cancels a regulation.

Yes sir, it is the darn government that won't allow those airlines to operate without so many regulations. Somehow every other airline but Southwest managed this storm with far greater competence and skill. Somehow only SWA has completely failed. But you blame government regulations???

Time to rethink your ability to analyze cause and effect.

[Aces4]

I think I might have a unique perspective on this topic. I am a very frequent flier on Southwest for more than 20 years, an 'A' lister and have a companion pass that allows my wife to travel free with me wherever and whenever I fly Southwest-Which is quite a bit.
I was booked to fly from Manchester, NH to Orlando to return home to TV on the 26th. Drove 2 hours from Mount Washington to the airport on the day after Xmas to catch our flight home.
No text or status update was sent to me (which happens all the time on SW to me)-no emails-no notification-just had to show up at the airport to find my flight cancelled. Not typically the way SW operates.
To those of you who are 'blubbering' on about the weather and why didn't we know or understand-that's 'smallmindedness' at it's best. The weather was cleared by the 26th in most parts of the country-with some exceptions like Denver and Buffalo-And I WILL always travel to see family at Xmas-no matter what the weather-so factoring in a delay or disruption here and there is normal. But NEVER have I been exposed to SW Air not being able to give me ANY alternatives for 4 days to get back to Florida. Nothing till the 30th they told me. Not from Manchester or Boston, or Providence or even New York. Finally after about an hour of continually asking different questions, my wife and I were booked on a plane from Baltimore to Orlando the next evening. NO flight from Manchester to Baltimore existed with availability, so we rented a car and DROVE 9 hours to the Baltimore airport-stopping at a hotel to grab a few hours of midday sleep. Quite a taxing ordeal, to say the least. AND we are one of the lucky ones who were able to take matters into our own hands and come up with a viable solution-Even if it did mean an all night drive down the East Coast (The Vince Lombardi Turnpike near NYC on the NJ Turnpike at 2 AM is an amazingly scary experience).
To say I am disappointed with my airline of choice is an understatement. To say I was let down is mild. I am beyond belief at the way they handled the whole fiasco. I believed in their culture-the fun aspect of their company-the philanthropy-THIS WAS NOT A WEATHER issue-As many have stated prior-It was a failure of SWA to invest in technology that was sorely needed to update their scheduling process. People scheduling, flight scheduling, crew scheduling and plane location scheduling. SWA bought back over $5 billion of their own stock in the recent years, rather than reinvesting in their business, according to reports. They will now pay DEARLY for that. They have lost my confidence-They owe me money-and my $500 will only a drop in the bucket compared to what Buttigieg will go after them for in total. I'm not even sure they will survive this period in their company's history. My only hope is that they survive till the end of 2023,which is when my companion pass will expire, because I'm not spending another dime of real money with them!


“I WILL always travel to see family at Xmas-no matter what the weather“

Your quote makes me laugh, like you are the ONLY person with this mindset. Then why the whining about delayed travel after a horrendous winter storm? Sit down and wait for the mess you helped create is sorted out.

Southwest apparently needs an update in their systems and there will be hell to pay for that. However, Southwest was not the only airline that suffered huge delays and no one is reporting on all the other fiascos. Read back through the posts on here and acquire some knowledge of the other airlines failures.

I guarantee that if they don’t fold Southwest and it installs the required computer changes, the next horrendous winter storm during the week of Christmas will have almost the exact same effect across all airlines. But people have their mantra with which they live…

[Aces4]

Yes sir, it is the darn government that won't allow those airlines to operate without so many regulations. Somehow every other airline but Southwest managed this storm with far greater competence and skill. Somehow only SWA has completely failed. But you blame government regulations???

Time to rethink your ability to analyze cause and effect.

Not far greater competence, somewhat better because of updated computer systems. As I said Southwest will be thrown in the fire but it simply was the perfect storm; horrendous weather, Christmas week and people’s mindsets. All of the airlines were overwhelmed.

[msilagy]

On the news they showed a graph of how Southwest routes their flights which is different than other airlines. It's a back and forth scenario which was their downfall in the severe weather days and it just got worse with cancellations day by day. The CEO said there are definitely some changes that need to be made.

[Two Bills]

OBB respondent is like a broken record on Leftie matters. Very Woke and as she says very proud of that. So be it but the continual harping on Climate Change is irritating. Spoken from the Dem playbook.

Has the earth ever had winter storms as this one? Of course. I will not expound on this as it is a waste of my time. She is stuck on that Side - so be it.

I’m tired of it all, especially the Climate Change crap which is costing our country dearly.

Same could be said of your 'Rightie Matters,' and attempts to politicize many threads.
Alright!

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

The public just doesn’t get it though, do they? They couldn’t figure out that they should just stay home for this holiday due to a huge threatening weather front. They’d rather blame the airlines for their own poor judgment. and people know about this weather front when they buy there tickets 2 and 3 months earlier ?

[tvbound]

Southwest per the CNN link above is still using technology for its phones, IT etc that are well out of date and has caused issues in the past. A few years ago there was a large tax cut for corporations so they could invest in new products and modernization. What did they do with this windfall? Many US corporations chose to use this new money to buy back their own stock which pushes the stock price up and rewards investors only, no benefit to consumers.



Quick now, who made this highly critical comment about airlines using tax cuts to push up their stock price instead of investing in workers and infrastructure:

“When we did a big tax cut, and when they took the money and did buybacks, that’s not building a hangar, that’s not buying aircraft, that’s not doing the kind of things that I want them to do. We didn’t think we would have had to restrict it because we thought they would have known better. But they didn’t know better, in some cases.”

Many had in fact predicted that the huge tax cuts would go right into the pockets of corporations and stay there rather than be used to benefit the non-stockholders. Surprising fact:

The huge 'blackout' that may be deepening market turbulence | CNN Business (/2018/10/14/investing/stocks-week-ahead-buybacks-dow-jones/index.html)

The biggest buyer of stocks between 2009 and 2018 was not individual investors, was not institutional investors... it was corporations buying their own stocks, 4.3 TRILLION dollars in buybacks.

"The biggest buyer of stocks between 2009 and 2018 was not individual investors, was not institutional investors... it was corporations buying their own stocks, 4.3 TRILLION dollars in buybacks."

You are absolutely correct.

I believe that as long as executive compensation is tied to a single years stock price, this practice will not end. I have always thought that, at a minimum, their yearly bonuses should be based on a 2-3 year rolling average of their stock price. This way, the long term viability of the company/corporation will be given more thought and attention for the average long-term investor, rather than how the stock performed in just one year.

[Aces4]

I hate to say it, but I think the airlines have become too efficient at filling every seat. Maybe the Federal Government should require airlines to leave 10 percent of the seats empty to allow some flexibility for cancelled flights, etc. Also, I think all bags should be checked. No carry-on luggage in overhead bins.

Checking all bags isn’t feasible when traveling with medical supplies and prescriptions.

[Aces4]

and people know about this weather front they buy there tickets 2 and 3 months earlier ?

You must have missed where the airlines offered ahead of the storms to change tickets at no charge to the customer. They were forecasting this storm for over a week before it’s arrival.

[PugMom]

I would never fly on Southwest because they won't give me an assigned seat. I want an assigned seat, and once I sit down, I'm not moving, except to first class. I don't care who wants to sit next to someone else. So, there!

i had no idea this was their policy! another reason to avoid SW. last time i flew with them,(years ago) it seemed the staff was devoting all their time on the floor show before takeoff.

[tvbound]

Yes sir, it is the darn government that won't allow those airlines to operate without so many regulations. Somehow every other airline but Southwest managed this storm with far greater competence and skill. Somehow only SWA has completely failed. But you blame government regulations???

Time to rethink your ability to analyze cause and effect.

If you keep bringing actual facts and reality to an emotional fight, you're not going to make friends of a lot of people around here.

Keep it up. LOL

[Aces4]

i had no idea this was their policy! another reason to avoid SW. last time i flew with them,(years ago) it seemed the staff was devoting all their time on the floor show before takeoff.

And we would rather avoid the others. Still appreciate the flight where Delta broke the head off of my brand new Taylor Made driver while in the same bag the pros were using for travel at that time.

On the flight home we understood why as we sat on the plane and watched them dump luggage from a conveyer which dropped over 6’ to the ground for loading. Never looked backed and we won’t fly them again.

[Caymus]

Yes sir, it is the darn government that won't allow those airlines to operate without so many regulations. Somehow every other airline but Southwest managed this storm with far greater competence and skill. Somehow only SWA has completely failed. But you blame government regulations???

Time to rethink your ability to analyze cause and effect.

Maybe the government should ban point to point and only allow hub and spoke. That would reduce some issues.

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

You must have missed where the airlines offered ahead of the storms to change tickets at no charge to the customer. They were forecasting this storm for over a week before it’s arrival.lots of people got home on there flights ,so you think every time they forecast bad weather you should cancel your plans to visit loved ones , and ,spend your vacation days at home , and not have reasonable expectations that the airline will do a much better job then they did .after all didn’t the boss say much of this was there fault , when my parents were alive , I always tried to get home for Christmas no matter where I was in the world , I didn’t get scared off by long range forecast , I took my chances , so you can blame the ticket holders if you like ,I’ll put the blame on the airline that is still floundering as I write this , it truly shows you the old saying you get what you pay for is still true , never flown southwest and never will ,

[Aces4]

lots of people got home on there flights ,so you think every time they forecast bad weather you should cancel your plans to visit loved ones , and ,spend your vacation days at home , and not have reasonable expectations that the airline will do a much better job then they did .after all didn’t the boss say much of this was there fault , when my parents were alive , I always tried to get home for Christmas no matter where I was in the world , I didn’t get scared off by long range forecast , I took my chances , so you can blame the ticket holders if you like ,I’ll put the blame on the airline that is still floundering as I write this , it truly shows you the old saying you get what you pay for is still true , never flown southwest and never will ,

This wasn’t your everyday forecast, it was one of those rare “bomb-cyclone” storms at Christmas! The old saying of you made your bed, sleep in it, could also apply.

When you have a former American Airlines pilot post on this thread that Southwest is a great airline, I’ll listen to him. He has more skin in the game.

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

Yes 3 cheers for the airline and boo hoo for the riders who dared come to the airport trying to get home in less then 5 days, I’ll keep buying my seats on a plane where I know where I’m sitting

[pokeefe45@aol.com]

“I WILL always travel to see family at Xmas-no matter what the weather“

Your quote makes me laugh, like you are the ONLY person with this mindset. Then why the whining about delayed travel after a horrendous winter storm? Sit down and wait for the mess you helped create is sorted out.

Southwest apparently needs an update in their systems and there will be hell to pay for that. However, Southwest was not the only airline that suffered huge delays and no one is reporting on all the other fiascos. Read back through the posts on here and acquire some knowledge of the other airlines failures.

I guarantee that if they don’t fold Southwest and it installs the required computer changes, the next horrendous winter storm during the week of Christmas will have almost the exact same effect across all airlines. But people have their mantra with which they live…

Pleased I could make you laugh. You mean there are other's who want to see family too?

The point was to counter those who are deciding that anyone who travelled knowing the weather situation, should just take their lumps. I'll take my lumps for deciding to travel during periods of weather warnings, but this was NOT about the weather. And that was the point being made.
Again, happy I could make you laugh. You might want to consider being less acerbic in your posts. You might find more success in life that way. Have a great day.

[Aces4]

Yes 3 cheers for the airline and boo hoo for the riders who dared come to the airport trying to get home in less then 5 days, I’ll keep buying my seats on a plane where I know where I’m sitting

…where you’re sitting five days later than planned.:1rotfl:

Heaven help us if people start stepping up and claiming responsibility for their decisions.:icon_wink:

[Aces4]

Pleased I could make you laugh. You mean there are other's who want to see family too?

The point was to counter those who are deciding that anyone who travelled knowing the weather situation, should just take their lumps. I'll take my lumps for deciding to travel during periods of weather warnings, but this was NOT about the weather. And that was the point being made.
Again, happy I could make you laugh. You might want to consider being less acerbic in your posts. You might find more success in life that way. Have a great day.

But I was responding to an acerbic post…chilout

[pokeefe45@aol.com]

But I was responding to a acerbic post…chilout

"Use a when the noun or adjective that comes next begins with a consonant sound. Use an when the noun or adjective that comes next begins with a vowel sound."- He says sardonically.

[Aces4]

"Use a when the noun or adjective that comes next begins with a consonant sound. Use an when the noun or adjective that comes next begins with a vowel sound."- He says sardonically.

Yeah, it was typed that way and who knows what happened but then it’s a good tool to refresh your language skills right? Have a good day, Miss Grammer.:ho:

[Elaine Dickinson]

Thousands Of Spirit Airlines Passengers Disappointed Their Flights Weren't Canceled

·
Dec 28, 2022
BabylonBee.com

U.S. — A harsh winter storm has swept the nation, disrupting travel plans, canceling flights, and leaving thousands disappointed and stranded at the airport. Passengers for Spirit Airlines on the other hand were disappointed to learn that their flights had not been canceled and were moving along as scheduled.

"Ahhhhh! You've got to be kidding me! Our Spirit Airlines flight has not been canceled or even delayed. Our plane has arrived on schedule!" complained Derick Johnson to his family. "Well, this is just great. Instead of being safely stuck in the airport for days like all these other folks, we have to actually board that thing and fly 1,000s of feet up the air!"

According to sources, once passengers boarded Spirit Airlines many asked the flight attendants several questions before takeoff. "Are you sure the inspection came back alright? Can we check it again? Is the pilot starting to feel ill? Are you sure we don't need to delay this thing another hour or 5?" said, multiple concerned passengers. "No really we don't mind, it's not too late to cancel this thing altogether."

At publishing time, people flying Southwest who had been stranded at the airport for days were told that there were finally dozens of flights available for departure, but unfortunately, they were all through Spirit Airlines.

[Vladimir]

Southwest used to be our go to for many years before Covid. All the airlines obviously suffered during the early Covid times, but unlike the other airlines that seemed to get their act back together, Southwest never got back to anywhere close to where they were before. They used to always have more non stop flight options, very competitive prices, and a decent cancellation/delay record versus other airlines. These days Southwest seems to have way fewer non stop flight options, very expensive fares, and a horrible on time/cancellation record. In my opinion, JetBlue eats Southwests lunch these days. It sucks for us as we have about a quarter million unused Southwest travel points that we are reluctant to use. We stopped using our Southwest credit cards a couple years ago as the points no longer have much value to us. We actually preferred Southwest’s no seat assignment boarding policy when flying to/from Orlando. We liked boarding AFTER Southwest allowed families with kids to board, that way we could select seats that weren’t close to screaming and kicking kids wearing mouse ears. Southwest has gone sooooo far downhill their performance is beyond excuses, it’s got to be BAD MANAGEMENT.

You are spot on about Southwest. I have 125K travel points but can't use them now and also am exploring new credit cards with cash back instead of airline travel points.

I now fly Frontier, Spirit or JetBlue and with their high baggage fees still cheaper than Southwest fares. I also have learned how to pack everything into a back pack which fits underneath the seat for free.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Perfect storms, the confluence of several events or low probability large adverse events, uncovers weakness in Mgmt's operational strategies. Southwest just got shown theirs, outdated crew management and scheduling software, where the cancellations and crew member locations have to be updated manually. Works fine in a normal, blue sky day, where cancellations are few and data entry manageable. . when a very large winter storm hits and shuts down a very large proportion of the system, their old software system got overwhelmed by events. mgmt must be blamed for software maintenance / upgrade processes inadequate

Its not that crew members got out of place, as they stayed with their planes, its that the manpower plane scheduling system's automation had them out of place, and that must be tracked for FAA regulatory requirements, and the manual update got overwhelmed with manual telephone system updates. . .

My last company replaced the faxed in time sheets from field employees about 8+ years ago so that it was electronically entered. Its called going digital where digital feeds and real time data is integrated into manpower scheduling software

[Aces4]

Perfect storms, the confluence of several events or low probability large adverse events, uncovers weakness in Mgmt's operational strategies. Southwest just got shown theirs, outdated crew management and scheduling software, where the cancellations and crew member locations have to be updated manually. Works fine in a normal, blue sky day, where cancellations are few and data entry manageable. . when a very large winter storm hits and shuts down a very large proportion of the system, their old software system got overwhelmed by events. mgmt must be blamed for software maintenance / upgrade processes inadequate

Its not that crew members got out of place, as they stayed with their planes, its that the manpower plane scheduling system's automation had them out of place, and that must be tracked for FAA regulatory requirements, and the manual update got overwhelmed with manual telephone system updates. . .

My last company replaced the faxed in time sheets from field employees about 8+ years ago so that it was electronically entered. Its called going digital where digital feeds and real time data is integrated into manpower scheduling software

Can you tell us what went wrong with these flights?


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Default Delta was no better this week.
I understand weather plays a big part in the problems with flying but it’s more than that. Two of my kids had two flights cancelled trying to fly home from here. Then Delta put them on a flight with two stops when the original flight was non stop. I spent 2.5 hours on hold with Delta on Christmas Eve. I finally hung up. We went in to the airport in Orlando to try to get a ticket agent to help. They had no flights available in the next four days. They threw their hands up. Nothing they could do. Told me to call for a refund as they can’t issue them. My kids are flying home today on Spirit. I never thought I would see the days when Spirit did a better job than Delta. All airlines need to quite overselling their flights. There is no option when flights get cancelled. I wish the Transportation Secretary would do his job and hold these airlines accountable.



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Default Oh man
I am an ex American airline pilot. Retired after 33 years. Those of you that think SWA is the problem are wrong. Some of you have commented that American and all the other other airlines are on time and doing a great job. Nothing could be more false. I m in STL trying to get back to mco. on any airline including American. Everything is either cancelled or overbooked. I finally found a ticket on Frontier Friday. You have no idea of the complexity of the airline business the airlines don’t just have extra airplanes sitting around and air crews. They are scattered around the system. Schedulers are pulling their hair out trying to rebuild the system. Folks it is the weather, closed airports and many other factors that have created this. It’s not Southwest and it’s baggage policy. I fly SWA all the time. Love them.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Can you tell us what went wrong with these flights?

Sure, you have a very complex system of moving pieces, passengers, support staff, and crew. The system was forced to a staggered stop. Now, to restart the system from the current state, there are various options:

1 - pick a start time, and move everything back into position to start at that time
2 - pick a time to restart which has the closest configuration of pieces, support staff and crew to minimize expensive piece and people relocations
3 - confounding constraints :
a - FAA crew rest time constraints. . with documentation.
b - supporting staff constraints / luggage / fueling / supplies
c - Passenger rebooking to start time pieces with the future open seats

Now its a huge operational research schedule program to get everything lined up to get ready to go, especially with the stranded passengers and luggage trying to reschedule in a system that may not be designed to handle that much traffic at once.

However, the more manual data inputs are needed, and manual communications needed for data inputs, the higher human staffing needed and time to update and reconfigure the system before even reticketing the stranded passengers. The longer the outage, the more difficult the restart due to the backlog of rebookings and openings. . .

So if the system isn't totally digitized with automated feeds and reschedule optimization algorithms built, one gets the result which SWA recently exhibited.

Doesn't mean that the weather and operational system design weren't the initiating factors to the shut down. What it means that the restart probably took longer than other airlines due to the amount of manual input required and old algorithms to run to restart the system.

operations guy

[Aces4]

Sure, you have a very complex system of moving pieces, passengers, support staff, and crew. The system was forced to a staggered stop. Now, to restart the system from the current state, there are various options:

1 - pick a start time, and move everything back into position to start at that time
2 - pick a time to restart which has the closest configuration of pieces, support staff and crew to minimize expensive piece and people relocations
3 - confounding constraints :
a - FAA crew rest time constraints. . with documentation.
b - supporting staff constraints / luggage / fueling / supplies
c - Passenger rebooking to start time pieces with the future open seats

Now its a huge operational research schedule program to get everything lined up to get ready to go, especially with the stranded passengers and luggage trying to reschedule in a system that may not be designed to handle that much traffic at once.

However, the more manual data inputs are needed, and manual communications needed for data inputs, the higher human staffing needed and time to update and reconfigure the system before even reticketing the stranded passengers. The longer the outage, the more difficult the restart due to the backlog of rebookings and openings. . .

So if the system isn't totally digitized with automated feeds and reschedule optimization algorithms built, one gets the result which SWA recently exhibited.

Doesn't mean that the weather and operational system design weren't the initiating factors to the shut down. What it means that the restart probably took longer than other airlines due to the amount of manual input required and old algorithms to run to restart the system.

operations guy

Did you catch on the news tonight how some of the other big airlines were selling tickets for missed SW flights for thousands of dollars a piece?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Maybe the government should ban point to point and only allow hub and spoke. That would reduce some issues.

... so I guess a whole lot of commuter flights would cease to exist. And if a hub has to shut down for inclement weather - oh well. No one's going anywhere for awhile. And no one is coming to the area for awhile either - since a lot of those regional airports aren't hubs, and you've just eliminated that option.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Did you catch on the news tonight how some of the other big airlines were selling tickets for missed SW flights for thousands of dollars a piece?

no, i don't watch TV news. . sorry. .

But last minute tickets are usually priced for corporate passengers, so not surprised. .

I once was told to book a flight to London that morning, leaving that night. . very expensive
versus a planned 7+ day advance ticket. something like 5k against a 2K of a 7 day advanced ticket

future former corporate guy

[tvbound]

While I personally have no idea whether this is legitimate and from an actual Southwest pilot, having read numerous other articles basically saying the same thing - I tend to believe it.



"A source inside Southwest Airlines recently passed this on and gave me permission to share. This is worth reading:

What happened to Southwest Airlines?

I’ve been a pilot for Southwest Airlines for over 35 years. I’ve given my heart and soul to Southwest Airlines during those years. And quite honestly Southwest Airlines has given its heart and soul to me and my family.

Many of you have asked what caused this epic meltdown. Unfortunately, the frontline employees have been watching this meltdown coming like a slow motion train wreck for sometime. And we’ve been begging our leadership to make much needed changes in order to avoid it. What happened yesterday started two decades ago.

Herb Kelleher was the brilliant CEO of SWA until 2004. He was a very operationally oriented leader. Herb spent lots of time on the front line. He always had his pulse on the day to day operation and the people who ran it. That philosophy flowed down through the ranks of leadership to the front line managers. We were a tight operation from top to bottom. We had tools, leadership and employee buy in. Everything that was needed to run a first class operation. When Herb retired in 2004 Gary Kelly became the new CEO.

Gary was an accountant by education and his style leading Southwest Airlines became more focused on finances and less on operations. He did not spend much time on the front lines. He didn’t engage front line employees much. When the CEO doesn’t get out in the trenches the neither do the lower levels of leadership.

Gary named another accountant to be Chief Operating Officer (the person responsible for day to day operations). The new COO had little or no operational background. This trickled down through the lower levels of leadership, as well.

They all disengaged the operation, disengaged the employees and focused more on Return on Investment, stock buybacks and Wall Street. This approach worked for Gary’s first 8 years because we were still riding the strong wave that Herb had built.

But as time went on the operation began to deteriorate. There was little investment in upgrading technology (after all, how do you measure the return on investing in infrastructure?) or the tools we needed to operate efficiently and consistently. As the frontline employees began to see the deterioration in our operation we began to warn our leadership. We educated them, we informed them and we made suggestions to them. But to no avail.

The focus was on finances not operations. As we saw more and more deterioration in our operation our asks turned to pleas.

Our pleas turned to dire warnings. But they went unheeded. After all, the stock price was up so what could be wrong?

We were a motivated, willing and proud employee group wanting to serve our customers and uphold the tradition of our beloved airline, the airline we built and the airline that the traveling public grew to cheer for and luv. But we were watching in frustration and disbelief as our once amazing airline was becoming a house of cards.

A half dozen small scale meltdowns occurred during the mid to late 2010’s. With each mini meltdown Leadership continued to ignore the pleas and warnings of the employees in the trenches. We were still operating with 1990’s technology. We didn’t have the tools we needed on the line to operate the sophisticated and large airline we had become. We could see that the wheels were about ready to fall off the bus. But no one in leadership would heed our pleas.

When COVID happened SWA scaled back considerably (as did all of the airlines) for about two years. This helped conceal the serious problems in technology, infrastructure and staffing that were occurring and being ignored. But as we ramped back up the lack of attention to the operation was waiting to show its ugly head.

Gary Kelly retired as CEO in early 2022. Bob Jordan was named CEO. He was a more operationally oriented leader. He replaced our Chief Operating Officer with a very smart man and they announced their priority would be to upgrade our airline’s technology and provide the frontline employees the operational tools we needed to care for our customers and employees. Finally, someone acknowledged the elephant in the room.

But two decades of neglect takes several years to overcome. And, unfortunately to our horror, our house of cards came tumbling down this week as a routine winter storm broke our 1990’s operating system.

The frontline employees were ready and on station. We were properly staffed. We were at the airports. Hell, we were ON the airplanes. But our antiquated software systems failed coupled with a decades old system of having to manage 20,000 frontline employees by phone calls. No automation had been developed to run this sophisticated machine.

We had a routine winter storm across the Midwest last Thursday. A larger than normal number flights were cancelled as a result. But what should have been one minor inconvenient day of travel turned into this nightmare.

After all, American, United, Delta and the other airlines operated with only minor flight disruptions.

The two decades of neglect by SWA leadership caused the airline to lose track of all its crews. ALL of us. We were there. With our customers. At the jet. Ready to go. But there was no way to assign us. To confirm us. To release us to fly the flight. And we watched as our customers got stranded without their luggage missing their Christmas holiday.

I believe that our new CEO Bob Jordan inherited a MESS. This meltdown was not his failure but the failure of those before him. I believe he has the right priorities. But it will take time to right this ship. A few years at a minimum. Old leaders need to be replaced. Operationally oriented managers need to be brought in. I hope and pray Bob can execute on his promises to fix our once proud airline. Time will tell.

It’s been a punch in the gut for us frontline employees.

We care for the traveling public. We have spent our entire careers serving you. Safely. Efficiently. With luv and pride. We are horrified. We are sorry. We are sorry for the chaos, inconvenience and frustration our airline caused you. We are angry. We are embarrassed. We are sad. Like you, the traveling public, we have been let down by our own leaders.

Herb once said the the biggest threat to Southwest Airlines will come from within. Not from other airlines. What a visionary he was. I miss Herb now more than ever.”

[Aces4]

no, i don't watch TV news. . sorry. .

But last minute tickets are usually priced for corporate passengers, so not surprised. .

I once was told to book a flight to London that morning, leaving that night. . very expensive
versus a planned 7+ day advance ticket. something like 5k against a 2K of a 7 day advanced ticket

future former corporate guy


I understand that fee but these are stranded people trying to get home so let’s charge $5,000. + for a ticket, lol.

[dnobles]

I tried to go from Albany to Orlando $3241. I don’t remember which one it was because I tried several airlines.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

While I personally have no idea whether this is legitimate and from an actual Southwest pilot, having read numerous other articles basically saying the same thing - I tend to believe it.

Saw parts of this post elsewhere. Though the operations staff is unionized, there is a possibility of a union perspective, wanting to oust the current CEO, or at least want to make a case for mgmt change or a union bargaining position at the next contract renewal.

My only comment is that my undergraduate is in operations, and i worked in operations for 8 years prior to going "corporate". Over 30 years in corporate, its obvious who has a worked the front lines and understands operations and who has accounting skills, and just looks at numbers. ..

At my current employer, they have hundreds of corporate conceptual theory goals PowerPoints, and zero actual execution improvements, and so our comprehensive reporting systems are literally non existent, meaning 10 years old, very similar to the SWA comprehensive scheduling system. . .

I feel the operations pain, and the corporate grift is very high these days. . .

future former finance guy

[tvbound]

Saw parts of this post elsewhere. Though the operations staff is unionized, there is a possibility of a union perspective, wanting to oust the current CEO, or at least want to make a case for mgmt change or a union bargaining position at the next contract renewal.

My only comment is that my undergraduate is in operations, and i worked in operations for 8 years prior to going "corporate". Over 30 years in corporate, its obvious who has a worked the front lines and understands operations and who has accounting skills, and just looks at numbers. ..

At my current employer, they have hundreds of corporate conceptual theory goals PowerPoints, and zero actual execution improvements, and so our comprehensive reporting systems are literally non existent, meaning 10 years old, very similar to the SWA comprehensive scheduling system. . .

I feel the operations pain, and the corporate grift is very high these days. . .

future former finance guy


"...there is a possibility of a union perspective wanting to oust the current CEO, or at least want to make a case for mgmt change or a union bargaining position at the next contract renewal."

If you read it again, the person writing it is happy with the current CEO and is claiming that the previous one, who had no operational experience, is the one who only looked at the immediate financial bottom line and not operations overall.

Having spent 45+ years working my way up, from the very bottom in a tough industry, I have been on both sides of the CBA table, as well as a union rep and eventual Vice President - so I have truly seen it from all sides.

I totally agree that the best leaders are those that have been on the "front lines," have done a plethora of the positions in the company and spend the time/effort/budgeting to try and make the employees safer, more productive AND appreciated.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

If you read it again, the person writing it is happy with the current CEO and is claiming that the previous one, who had no operational experience, is the one who only looked at the immediate financial bottom line and not operations overall.

Yeah, I missed that Gary retired this year, and I remember that Herb was great. . Gary is the one who didn't make the investments over the last decade. . . I dislike accountants, and make it well known. They know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. .

I totally agree that the best leaders are those that have been on the "front lines," have done a plethora of the positions in the company and spend the time/effort/budgeting to try and make the employees safer, more productive AND appreciated.

Absolutely, customers and employees must be happy, or a public service company doesn't work. .

[Escape Artist]

Some planes went out of Orlando, but some were supposed to go to airports that were shut down due to the "climate change that doesn't exist" - not existing again in the north. So those planes couldn't leave Orlando.

What “climate change that doesn’t exist”? It’s winter, so there are blizzards and severe cold and snow. Not all areas were affected by this latest storm. Mainly the Midwest, Rocky Mountains, and eastern seaboard.

Unfortunately, that affected cross country flights. The SW CEO admitted they have infrastructure problems aka out-dated software and technology. But there are also personnel problems. For instance, many of the ground crew in Denver called in fake sick because they didn’t want to work in such conditions without weather-proof equipment and protective clothing which they didn’t have. That caused a chain reaction that badly screwed things up along with all the other things that were going on simultaneously.

[Babubhat]

If you were not personally impacted why does it matter? It’s the state of air travel. Adapt to the circumstances and move forward. It will happen again,

It’s incomprehensible people don’t put an AirTag in there luggage. Make it easy to find

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What “climate change that doesn’t exist”? It’s winter, so there are blizzards and severe cold and snow. Not all areas were affected by this latest storm. Mainly the Midwest, Rocky Mountains, and eastern seaboard.

Unfortunately, that affected cross country flights. The SW CEO admitted they have infrastructure problems aka out-dated software and technology. But there are also personnel problems. For instance, many of the ground crew in Denver called in fake sick because they didn’t want to work in such conditions without weather-proof equipment and protective clothing which they didn’t have. That caused a chain reaction that badly screwed things up along with all the other things that were going on simultaneously.

The "weather event" (if that's the term you prefer) spanned most of the entire country, from the Pacific Northwest to the east coast. Parts of Texas had no power.

I'm not reading any actual reports of fake sick-calls in Denver. Only that there were more callouts than usual.

[Stu from NYC]

25 or so years ago we had reliable air travel. Could fly from NY to Florida same day for cruise.

Now would not even think about same day travel. Sad.

[tuccillo]

Average on-time arrival rates (within 15 minutes of scheduled time) have been bouncing around between 75 and 80% for the last 25 years. A bit of "inflation" on the flight times has presumably helped the statistics. If you absolutely have to be there at a specific time then going in the day before has always been the rule. Other steps to mitigate the risk is never take the last flight of the day, avoid connections if at all possible, and when you do have a connection, allow 3 hours, if at all possible. Also, the major airlines appear to be a bit better at dealing with problems than the discount airlines. For example, Delta vs. Frontier. When I traveled almost weekly for work, most of the issues I saw were mechanical problems. In that case, flying a major airline to and from their hubs will help.

25 or so years ago we had reliable air travel. Could fly from NY to Florida same day for cruise.

Now would not even think about same day travel. Sad.