Which dumpster fire is worse, Crypto or Tesla?

[tophcfa]

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.

[tvbound]

I've never really liked Musk as a person, but have greatly admired his mind and imagination...until he bought Twitter. I think we're seeing how much he really wants to play God, with the head-scratching and potentially self-destructing moves he's made at Twitter since becoming the "Chief Twit."

No one should kid themselves however, as even though Tesla is currently getting hammered and Twitter is a mess, the other companies he owns, or partly owns (Space-X, SolarCity, Tesla Energy, The Boring Company, Neuralink), are still leaders/innovators in their segments and highly valued.

Going from the richest person on the planet, to now only the second richest person (current estimated net worth of $139 billion as of Dec. 27, according to Forbes) - isn't exactly a reason to say he's now toast.

An easy way to put it into perspective, is understanding that if $1 was equal to 1 second, a million dollars would be about 12 days - and a billion dollars is about 31 years!

[Babubhat]

Both Fear and greed driven by cult behavior. At least you have a real asset with Tesla technology.

[PoolBrews]

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.

So, because Musk owns a bunch of bitcoin, he has his "fingers all over it"? He had nothing to do with setting up cryptocurrency, managing it, or ensuring it remained solvent. He was just another consumer of it.

[I'm Popeye!]

Yep, As someone wrote on another thread:
. . . . "This place is just like Twitter before Elon Musk."
They stopped picking on Orange and now shifted their attention to a new target... :ohdear:

[justjim]

Joining a crowd of over zealous stock enthusiasts can drive you into bankruptcy. Not my cup of tea.

[MrFlorida]

Never trusted Bitcoin, glad I didn't get sucked into it.

[New Englander]

Never trusted Bitcoin, glad I didn't get sucked into it.

Same here.

[Chi-Town]

Musk has negative carryover from Twitter purchase.

[Boomer]

TSLA’s 52-week range: 108.25 — 402.67………wow……..Stable Genius???

Boomer

[CoachKandSportsguy]

I will just leave this here. .

[Aces4]

I will just leave this here. .

I give that piece no credence. An avowed Twitter alum tells you a lot about him and why he’s upset that Musk now owns Twitter. That feels like a very political piece to me and I know that’s not allowed.

[Mortal1]

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.

the sky is falling. Perhaps you'd refer George Soros?

[merrymini]

Owned a tesla. Terrific car. The mistake is thinking everyone should own an EV, like the Federal government. Read up on what the Toyota CEO has said, we cannot go totally over, it just doesn’t work. Musk is innovative and challenging. I do not tweet but am glad to have the air cleared.

[Two Bills]

In UK Tesla are doing very well.

96289

[ithos]

I don't understand how a person can become so despised for simply exposing the illegal and unconstitutional activity at Twitter. This includes stopping the pedo posts that were swapping pictures of minors which were allowed to flourish under previous management.

Freedom of speech for me but not for thee.

[Blackbird45]

The problem is not Elon Musk, Bitcoin, or Tweeter. The problem is that investors rush to get into the next gold rush and when it doesn’t pan out, they look for someone or something to blame. If you want to keep your money save, invest in long established companies. They might not give you the windfall profits you want, but in the long run the odds are you will not get burned.

[Southwest737]

Most of high tech is down hard and especially the EV makers. Not just Tesla. Rivian and Lucid down over 80 percent from a year ago.
The sector was highly overbought and has now likely overcorrected.
With a forward PE of 22 Tesla is a strong buy for an investor looking for growth at a reasonable price.

[Mrfriendly]

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.

I wish I was one of the fortunate people several yrs ago to have millions worth of Crypto after only paying small amount for it then spent it all buying my 4 houses and 2 cars.

[srswans]

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.

Twitter a “train wreck?” Rly? Where did you hear/read that? Twitter is working better for me since Musk bought it. Give it a try!

[tuccillo]

Strange statement. Tesla will deliver over 1 million cars in 2022 and probably about 2 million cars in 2023, worldwide. For 2023, that would be about 1/2 of the Ford, Nissan and Honda production (each about 4 million), worldwide.

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.

[DAVES]

Never trusted Bitcoin, glad I didn't get sucked into it.

I read a lot. Recently I've realized it is sort of foolish to read a lot, expect, no DEMAND, that it fits together AND MAKES SENSE.

According to ME, bitcoin is another MASS INSANITY. Nothing new. It is the same as the tulip bulb Ponzi Scheme of 300 years ago. Aside, even churches got involved in buying and selling Tulip Bulbs. Some did make money. Some lost. Read. No one knows who created bitcoin. There are suspicions but no answers. For honest folks it is claimed to be a storage of value. HUH, it often changes in value by 6% PLUS in one day. Tulip bulbs did the same. Bitcoins value is quoted against the dollar. Many, including me, point out that the dollar is no longer backed by silver and gold. It says based on the full faith and credit of the United States-perhaps, of shrinking value.
BITCOIN is based on NOTHING except that some people THINK it has value.

As far as reading and conflicts. We are told you can't time the market. I read that so it must be true. HUH? For both BITCOIN and Tesler or any other stock or investment.
IF, you bought at the right time and sold at the right time-YOU MADE MONEY.

I also find it interesting in reading. There are tons of articles that it is a good time to BUY few if any that it is a good time to SELL.

[DAVES]

I wish I was one of the fortunate people several yrs ago to have millions worth of Crypto after only paying small amount for it then spent it all buying my 4 houses and 2 cars.

IF, TRUE, good for you. Basic investment advice is not to hold more than 10% of your total portfolio in one investment. REALITY, when it comes to money, few tell you the truth. PERHAPS, closer to the TRUTH many do not know the TRUTH.

[jimjamuser]

Bitcoin and Tesla are down 68% and 72% year to date, ouch! One is a fictional asset with no tangible backing and the other is a company based on government subsidies, false promises, and technology that’s a hope and dream. Both have Elon Musk’s fingerprints all over them, not to mention the social media company (Twitter) that is his newest train wreck project. It appears the golden boy’s luck has run dry? So much for muskrat love.
Tesla is building charging stations that will probably be highly profitable. And they may have some battery-building expertise?

[DAVES]

I don't understand how a person can become so despised for simply exposing the illegal and unconstitutional activity at Twitter. This includes stopping the pedo posts that were swapping pictures of minors which were allowed to flourish under previous management.

Freedom of speech for me but not for thee.

For despised I read HATE. Perhaps, a human weakness. To the best of my ability I try to keep very few on my HATE list. That way if someone makes my list, I can give them my full attention. Honestly, right now my HATE LIST is empty.

Our constitution is an amazing document. Imagine, the authors did not have the internet for research and just as today, there were differences of OPINION. Much of the constitution has over the years changed in REAL MEANING, due to interpretation due to case law.

We the people, ALL OF US, tend to select parts of the constitution and parts of current events that agree with our BIAS. That is true of ALL including ME.

[jimjamuser]

Owned a tesla. Terrific car. The mistake is thinking everyone should own an EV, like the Federal government. Read up on what the Toyota CEO has said, we cannot go totally over, it just doesn’t work. Musk is innovative and challenging. I do not tweet but am glad to have the air cleared.
I wish that Tesla would build golf carts.

[DAVES]

Tesla is building charging stations that will probably be highly profitable. And they may have some battery-building expertise?

Small people bite at the heels of the great. Musk, he has done the IMPOSSIBLE. Imagine he has built a car company-so many have failed. Space X, they are launching craft into space.
Our government has admitted you can do it better and cheaper than we can. The are recovering, rebuilding and reusing rocket parts. Simply AMAZING. No, I have never bought stock in either Tessler or bought BITCOIN.

[quietpine]

Twitter was a business trying to keep their product attractive for advertisers. They didn’t maintain an open forum because advertisers wouldn’t pay for my right to project irresponsible and offensive ideas on others. That was Twitter’s business model. Musk replaced it with the I am God model wrapped in a pretense of free speech That’s one shallow and expensive ego trip. Free speech, really?

[Aces4]

I read a lot. Recently I've realized it is sort of foolish to read a lot, expect, no DEMAND, that it fits together AND MAKES SENSE.

According to ME, bitcoin is another MASS INSANITY. Nothing new. It is the same as the tulip bulb Ponzi Scheme of 300 years ago. Aside, even churches got involved in buying and selling Tulip Bulbs. Some did make money. Some lost. Read. No one knows who created bitcoin. There are suspicions but no answers. For honest folks it is claimed to be a storage of value. HUH, it often changes in value by 6% PLUS in one day. Tulip bulbs did the same. Bitcoins value is quoted against the dollar. Many, including me, point out that the dollar is no longer backed by silver and gold. It says based on the full faith and credit of the United States-perhaps, of shrinking value.
BITCOIN is based on NOTHING except that some people THINK it has value.

As far as reading and conflicts. We are told you can't time the market. I read that so it must be true. HUH? For both BITCOIN and Tesler or any other stock or investment.
IF, you bought at the right time and sold at the right time-YOU MADE MONEY.

I also find it interesting in reading. There are tons of articles that it is a good time to BUY few if any that it is a good time to SELL.


Bitcoin is like the American dollar, mass insanity and another Ponzi scheme. There is no true value behind it and it’s value is manipulated daily by printing more and more. The only difference is the government manages one of them.

[Aces4]

Twitter was a business trying to keep their product attractive for advertisers. They didn’t maintain an open forum because advertisers wouldn’t pay for my right to project irresponsible and offensive ideas on others. That was Twitter’s business model. Musk replaced it with the I am God model wrapped in a pretense of free speech That’s one shallow and expensive ego trip. Free speech, really?

Apparently, someone hasn’t kept up on all the truths being exposed now about the old Twitter. Yup, Musk does look like God compared to what the formers policy makers were up to and conspired with in their day.

[Boomer]

I read a lot. Recently I've realized it is sort of foolish to read a lot, expect, no DEMAND, that it fits together AND MAKES SENSE.

According to ME, bitcoin is another MASS INSANITY. Nothing new. It is the same as the tulip bulb Ponzi Scheme of 300 years ago. Aside, even churches got involved in buying and selling Tulip Bulbs. Some did make money. Some lost. Read. No one knows who created bitcoin. There are suspicions but no answers. For honest folks it is claimed to be a storage of value. HUH, it often changes in value by 6% PLUS in one day. Tulip bulbs did the same. Bitcoins value is quoted against the dollar. Many, including me, point out that the dollar is no longer backed by silver and gold. It says based on the full faith and credit of the United States-perhaps, of shrinking value.
BITCOIN is based on NOTHING except that some people THINK it has value.

As far as reading and conflicts. We are told you can't time the market. I read that so it must be true. HUH? For both BITCOIN and Tesler or any other stock or investment.
IF, you bought at the right time and sold at the right time-YOU MADE MONEY.

I also find it interesting in reading. There are tons of articles that it is a good time to BUY few if any that it is a good time to SELL.



About that tulip thing.....I like historical fiction because the reader gets the facts, but the facts are embedded in a storyline with interesting characters and their day-to-day lives and interactions. Some of the characters are historically real, while other characters are totally fictional, there to help tell the story. Good historical fiction takes some serious research coupled with creativity.

I am fascinated by behavioral economics.

Tulip Mania could make a good novel. But as far as I can find, nobody has written about it in that way yet. Seems like the timing is right.

If anybody here knows of such a book, please let me know.

Boomer

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Tesla is building charging stations that will probably be highly profitable. And they may have some battery-building expertise?

Except that the landlords are not getting paid for their lease to the charging companies.
Why you ask?

Because the general demand and usage is not up to the profitable level for the individual charging stations. Not all charging stations, but many charging stations.

Likewise, if you read up about Tesla vehicle insurance claims from the Tesla underwritten insurance, people are not getting their claims paid.

finance guy

[Aces4]

Except that the landlords are not getting paid for their lease to the charging companies.
Why you ask?

Because the general demand and usage is not up to the profitable level for the individual charging stations. Not all charging stations, but many charging stations.

Likewise, if you read up about Tesla vehicle insurance claims from the Tesla underwritten insurance, people are not getting their claims paid.

finance guy


Are you referring to the Geico kerfuffle?

I see Tesla Insurance is underwritten by State National Insurance Company and has an A financial strength rating from A.M.Best.

[larcha]

Interesting chart. What fiscal year are they using? It appears the September numbers are ~40% of the YTD. July 31st, maybe?

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Strange statement. Tesla will deliver over 1 million cars in 2022 and probably about 2 million cars in 2023, worldwide. For 2023, that would be about 1/2 of the Ford, Nissan and Honda production (each about 4 million), worldwide.

Then value the company as a car manufacturer . . . and you get prices much, much lower than today. There is a huge valuation gap between Tesla as a car mfg and the other companies which have perfected car manufacturing. .

That's the issue, not the number of cars being delivered (which is technically different than being sold)

finance guy

[tuccillo]

Go back and reread my post. It was in response to the strange comment about Tesla being based on a technology that is a "hope and a dream". I made no comment about the valuation of Tesla.

Then value the company as a car manufacturer . . . and you get prices much, much lower than today. There is a huge valuation gap between Tesla as a car mfg and the other companies which have perfected car manufacturing. .

That's the issue, not the number of cars being delivered (which is technically different than being sold)

finance guy

[tvbound]

About that tulip thing.....I like historical fiction because the reader gets the facts, but the facts are embedded in a storyline with interesting characters and their day-to-day lives and interactions. Some of the characters are historically real, while other characters are totally fictional, there to help tell the story. Good historical fiction takes some serious research coupled with creativity.

I am fascinated by behavioral economics.

Tulip Mania could make a good novel. But as far as I can find, nobody has written about it in that way yet. Seems like the timing is right.

If anybody here knows of such a book, please let me know.

Boomer


"I am fascinated by behavioral economics."

The problem is as old as barter/trade/investing itself, as human nature and greed (plus 'herd-mentality')...will never change.

So many people think that "lots of others are doing it, so it must be OK," is at the root of the issue - whether it is investing or even???????

[MidWestIA]

You buy crypto you own air you buy tesla you own cars

[I'm Popeye!]

I wish I was one of the fortunate people several yrs ago to have millions worth of Crypto after only paying small amount for it then spent it all buying my 4 houses and 2 cars.

//// I better not ////

Post Deleated...

[jimjamuser]

Bitcoin is like the American dollar, mass insanity and another Ponzi scheme. There is no true value behind it and it’s value is manipulated daily by printing more and more. The only difference is the government manages one of them.
The American dollar is the most used currency in the world and has stability right up there with Switzerland and Sweden. It is just the OPPOSITE of mass insanity and a Ponzi scheme. If we had NOT gotten away from the PROGRESSIVE tax brackets of the 1950s, we would have ZERO national debt, which as a percentage of GNP is not even that bad.
........The "true value" of the US dollar is the world's faith in the US economy, number 1 in the world.
.........Printing "more and more" dollars is a conspiracy theory that sounds meaningful, but is NOT.

[JMintzer]

The American dollar is the most used currency in the world and has stability right up there with Switzerland and Sweden. It is just the OPPOSITE of mass insanity and a Ponzi scheme. If we had NOT gotten away from the PROGRESSIVE tax brackets of the 1950s, we would have ZERO national debt, which as a percentage of GNP is not even that bad.
........The "true value" of the US dollar is the world's faith in the US economy, number 1 in the world.
.........Printing "more and more" dollars is a conspiracy theory that sounds meaningful, but is NOT.

OH, PLEASE! Not "the rich paid 90% in taxes" fallacy again...

[Aces4]

The American dollar is the most used currency in the world and has stability right up there with Switzerland and Sweden. It is just the OPPOSITE of mass insanity and a Ponzi scheme. If we had NOT gotten away from the PROGRESSIVE tax brackets of the 1950s, we would have ZERO national debt, which as a percentage of GNP is not even that bad.
........The "true value" of the US dollar is the world's faith in the US economy, number 1 in the world.
.........Printing "more and more" dollars is a conspiracy theory that sounds meaningful, but is NOT.

In your mind, perhaps. The truth is the dollar is worthless in that it is like Monopoly money. More can be printed anytime and at the end of the day it’s a paper sheet which has no actual value. It’s being devalued as we post. I’d take land, gold or silver over it any day.

[Larryandlinda]

Most of high tech is down hard and especially the EV makers. Not just Tesla. Rivian and Lucid down over 80 percent from a year ago.
The sector was highly overbought and has now likely overcorrected.
With a forward PE of 22 Tesla is a strong buy for an investor looking for growth at a reasonable price.
Too bad about Rivian’s stock drop and other setbacks.Their CEO is far more realistic than Musk. We are holding our devalued shares. We are delighted with their most tangible product, our first pickup in our 58 years of vehicles. After 19 months of waiting and 7 months of neglecting and abusing it, the conclusion is that it’s the greatest and most underpriced piece of machinery in which we have ever invested.
We suggested they raise the price, even on ours, ramp up production , and charge on.

[jimjamuser]

Except that the landlords are not getting paid for their lease to the charging companies.
Why you ask?

Because the general demand and usage is not up to the profitable level for the individual charging stations. Not all charging stations, but many charging stations.

Likewise, if you read up about Tesla vehicle insurance claims from the Tesla underwritten insurance, people are not getting their claims paid.

finance guy
That is interesting. I did not know that.

[jimjamuser]

[QUOTE=CoachKandSportsguy;2171042]Except that the landlords are not getting paid for their lease to the charging companies.
Why you ask?

Because the general demand and usage is not up to the profitable level for the individual charging stations. Not all charging stations, but many charging stations.

Likewise, if you read up about Tesla vehicle insurance claims from the Tesla underwritten insurance, people are not getting their claims paid.

finance guy[/QUO sorry for the duplicate

[jimjamuser]

OH, PLEASE! Not "the rich paid 90% in taxes" fallacy again...
One man's fallacy is another man's fact and most important American principle - that a STRONG middle class makes a STRONG COUNTRY. Today we have a STRONG upper-income class.......just like the ancient Romans had when Rome fell. We have outsourced our MIDDLE-CLASS to China. Now everyone can see that THEY are taking that STRONG middle class and flexing their muscle against BOTH the US and Taiwan. So, yes I do think that the legislative changes to the tax RATES put in place for the benefit of the upper class after the 1950s are DANGEROUS for the US and the world. I AM aware of it, most are not. Please allow me to have an OPINION!

The above paragraph relates the BASIS that has allowed people from Jack Welsh and the Koch brothers to Steve Jobs, Sam Bankman-Fried, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, AND OUR FAVORITE IN THIS CONVERSATION--------the wonderful ELON MUSK - to PULL from the US economy more riches than any South American DICTATOR possesses. I am NOT saying that those individuals do NOT deserve to earn/accumulate more riches than people in the middle class. It is a matter of degree. Japanese CEOs used to (and still may) be embarrassed to make more than 10 times what their average line worker makes. Musk and Zuckerberg make thousands of times more than their worker bees. That is the DEGREE and the problem of which I speak. I am NOT saying to change the American system - just to make it fairer and RESTORE the middle class which the upper class has outsourced to China and other countries.

When we talk about a "dumpster fire" that is BOTH Musk and SB-F........they are merely actors taking ADVANTAGE of their GREATER environment. The US economic environment in which most resources / money have drifted upward from the middle-class to the uber-upper class from 1950 to today. That is the REAL dumpster fire!

[jimjamuser]

In your mind, perhaps. The truth is the dollar is worthless in that it is like Monopoly money. More can be printed anytime and at the end of the day it’s a paper sheet which has no actual value. It’s being devalued as we post. I’d take land, gold or silver over it any day.
"Land, gold, and silver" are nice to possess, but are difficult to carry around in your pocket. Or send to your niece in Oregon. They get translated to money / dollars , which get translated into a checking account. Then into a credit card. All for the purpose of convenient ECONOMIC transactions, without which there becomes basically no US economy. I don't think that we want that!
.......Owning land, gold, and silver is a GOOD idea as a hedge against inflation. But, the concept of MONEY has great importance!

[Aces4]

That IS interesting. I did not know that.

CKSG didn’t give a clarification As to which insurance issue he was addressing when asked:


Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy View Post
Except that the landlords are not getting paid for their lease to the charging companies.
Why you ask?

Because the general demand and usage is not up to the profitable level for the individual charging stations. Not all charging stations, but many charging stations.

Likewise, if you read up about Tesla vehicle insurance claims from the Tesla underwritten insurance, people are not getting their claims paid.

finance guy




Are you referring to the Geico kerfuffle?

I see Tesla Insurance is underwritten by State National Insurance Company and has an A financial strength rating from A.M.Best.

[jimjamuser]

Too bad about Rivian’s stock drop and other setbacks.Their CEO is far more realistic than Musk. We are holding our devalued shares. We are delighted with their most tangible product, our first pickup in our 58 years of vehicles. After 19 months of waiting and 7 months of neglecting and abusing it, the conclusion is that it’s the greatest and most underpriced piece of machinery in which we have ever invested.
We suggested they raise the price, even on ours, ramp up production , and charge on.
Nice informative post. Nice to know that you like your electric P/U. Sounds like you purchased a piece of the future. Might be good to hold onto it as a future-classic vehicle. Might be worth a lot in the era of flying cars for your children.

[ThirdOfFive]

Small people bite at the heels of the great. Musk, he has done the IMPOSSIBLE. Imagine he has built a car company-so many have failed. Space X, they are launching craft into space.
Our government has admitted you can do it better and cheaper than we can. The are recovering, rebuilding and reusing rocket parts. Simply AMAZING. No, I have never bought stock in either Tessler or bought BITCOIN.
Bingo! The hugely successful will always have their detractors, sometimes to the point of being venomous. Elon Musk is probably the best example of that.

[jimjamuser]

Bingo! The hugely successful will always have their detractors, sometimes to the point of being venomous. Elon Musk is probably the best example of that.
Elon Mush is LESS of a hero to me than someone like Warren Buffet who avoided the New York power investor class and lived and worked in Omaha, Ne. He stayed in his original home (not a megamansion). He left his children ONLY enough $ so that they would be COMFORTABLE, but not rich and they would NOT get lazy. He has stated that the tax laws are more stringent for his secretary than for himself and that IS a problem that hurts the WHOLE country. He laughs about people like SB-F and anyone that would invest with him.

I feel that he has a similar attitude about tax law and the DESPERATE need to strengthen the middle class. He would be a good expert to comment on our "dumpster fire" question. People have different business HEROES and
I prefer mine.......Mr. Warren Buffet........a man for the ages.......there are very few his equal !!!!!!! Certainly not Jack Welsh or that crypto ding-a-ling.

[Aces4]

Elon Mush is LESS of a hero to me than someone like Warren Buffet who avoided the New York power investor class and lived and worked in Omaha, Nb. He stayed in his original home (not a megamansion). He left his children ONLY enough $ so that they would be COMFORTABLE, but not rich and they would NOT get lazy. He has stated that the tax laws are more stringent for his secretary than for himself and that IS a problem that hurts the WHOLE country. He laughs about people like SB-F and anyone that would invest with him.

I feel that he has a similar attitude about tax law and the DESPERATE need to strengthen the middle class. He would be a good expert to comment on our "dumpster fire" question. People have different business HEROES and
I prefer mine.......Mr. Warren Buffet........a man for the ages.......there are very few his equal !!!!!!! Certainly not Jack Welsh or that crypto ding-a-ling.

At least Elon Musk would spell your name correctly. It’s strange to admire someone who made his money off the backs of genius and hard work of others versus the genius who has accomplished much and employed many. Is Elon perfect? No, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Another note, your hero, Warren Buffet, has been clamoring for years about helping the middle/lower class. This is a man who isn’t leaving his “wealth” to his kids and could easily have financed the elections to promote those who would change the tax laws. Please don’t cite the campaign donation limit since we all know the wealthy have loopholes. He’s changed nothing but it does keep detractors from piling on and his image pretty, doesn’t it?

[Aces4]

"Land, gold, and silver" are nice to possess, but are difficult to carry around in your pocket. Or send to your niece in Oregon. They get translated to money / dollars , which get translated into a checking account. Then into a credit card. All for the purpose of convenient ECONOMIC transactions, without which there becomes basically no US economy. I don't think that we want that!
.......Owning land, gold, and silver is a GOOD idea as a hedge against inflation. But, the concept of MONEY has great importance!

You nailed it, the dollar is only a concept in which everyone must believe for it to be viable. Same as Bitcoin, only government isn’t involved, but they’re trying. I don’t own Bitcoin but I can see why most in the market hate it and other crypto currency. It could be their undoing if people give up their invested “dollar concept” for the “crypto concept”.

[jimjamuser]

At least Elon Musk would spell your name correctly. It’s strange to admire someone who made his money off the backs of genius and hard work of others versus the genius who has accomplished much and employed many. Is Elon perfect? No, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Another note, your hero, Warren Buffet, has been clamoring for years about helping the middle/lower class. This is a man who isn’t leaving his “wealth” to his kids and could easily have financed the elections to promote those who would change the tax laws. Please don’t cite the campaign donation limit since we all know the wealthy have loopholes. He’s changed nothing but it does keep detractors from piling on and his image pretty, doesn’t it?
I believe that Warren Buffett does give money toward elections. I am NOT so concerned that I would look up how much and to whom. I do know that his investment fund has a track record of beating the S +P in most years with almost 0 risk. Not sure what more he could do to avoid the few people that might criticize him.......walk on water?

[jimjamuser]

You nailed it, the dollar is only a concept in which everyone must believe for it to be viable. Same as Bitcoin, only government isn’t involved, but they’re trying. I don’t own Bitcoin but I can see why most in the market hate it and other crypto currency. It could be their undoing if people give up their invested “dollar concept” for the “crypto concept”.
I will say that at some point in the FUTURE, a cryptocurrency might prove useful. Everything EVOLVES and someday may replace credit cards. Whatever shape that would take, it would need government blessing and regulation. The Wild West was less than 2 decades long, yet it has been internalized by modern Americans as practically a Religion of Individuality. Today's cryptocurrency advocates seem to share that rugged INDIVIDUAL mentality from the past. Just like believing that ONLY jack Welsh could run GE. And ONLY Elon Musk could do what Musk has done (and singlehandedly without any staff help). Most every aspect of modern life demands groups working together, NOT individually.

Maybe if Musk had treated the workers at Twitter with some dignity and shown some class in his takeover.........maybe (?) I could have some respect for him. What he did at that Company is the kind of thing that FORCES some workers to become Unionized. And Jeff Bezos is doing the same thing. The German economy does fine with Unions - which helps Germany AVOID these "dumpster fires" that we are talking about in the US. It all goes back to the base question...... is the US strong and does it have a strong middle-class.

[Normal]

Tesla and Musk bought into Bitcoin a couple of years ago, but soured on the currency investment later on and sold it off before the crash. I’m not sure where your Musk assertion comes from? Currently the firm is into Dogecoin which is increasing its footing in the cryptocurrency market. Most companies he has invested in our blossoming beyond expectations. Space X has only upward prospects.

[JMintzer]

One man's fallacy is another man's fact and most important American principle - that a STRONG middle class makes a STRONG COUNTRY. Today we have a STRONG upper-income class.......just like the ancient Romans had when Rome fell. We have outsourced our MIDDLE-CLASS to China. Now everyone can see that THEY are taking that STRONG middle class and flexing their muscle against BOTH the US and Taiwan. So, yes I do think that the legislative changes to the tax RATES put in place for the benefit of the upper class after the 1950s are DANGEROUS for the US and the world. I AM aware of it, most are not. Please allow me to have an OPINION!

The above paragraph relates the BASIS that has allowed people from Jack Welsh and the Koch brothers to Steve Jobs, Sam Bankman-Fried, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, AND OUR FAVORITE IN THIS CONVERSATION--------the wonderful ELON MUSK - to PULL from the US economy more riches than any South American DICTATOR possesses. I am NOT saying that those individuals do NOT deserve to earn/accumulate more riches than people in the middle class. It is a matter of degree. Japanese CEOs used to (and still may) be embarrassed to make more than 10 times what their average line worker makes. Musk and Zuckerberg make thousands of times more than their worker bees. That is the DEGREE and the problem of which I speak. I am NOT saying to change the American system - just to make it fairer and RESTORE the middle class which the upper class has outsourced to China and other countries.

When we talk about a "dumpster fire" that is BOTH Musk and SB-F........they are merely actors taking ADVANTAGE of their GREATER environment. The US economic environment in which most resources / money have drifted upward from the middle-class to the uber-upper class from 1950 to today. That is the REAL dumpster fire!

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/6320001/204734757-8cb78f1c-4bff-40af-97bd-de09c079f937.gif

[JMintzer]

One man's fallacy is another man's fact and most important American principle - that a STRONG middle class makes a STRONG COUNTRY. Today we have a STRONG upper-income class.......just like the ancient Romans had when Rome fell. We have outsourced our MIDDLE-CLASS to China. Now everyone can see that THEY are taking that STRONG middle class and flexing their muscle against BOTH the US and Taiwan. So, yes I do think that the legislative changes to the tax RATES put in place for the benefit of the upper class after the 1950s are DANGEROUS for the US and the world. I AM aware of it, most are not. Please allow me to have an OPINION!

Your OPINION is based on false information. As I've explained to you (and showed you the actual facts), several times, "the rich" in the 50's actually paid less of a percentage of their income in taxes as they do today. The 90% tax rate (that you continually point to) was a fallacy, due to the MASSIVE tax deductions available.

In the 50's, the middle class carried more of the tax burden than they do today,. and the poor paid more in taxes, where almost 50% of todays earners pay ZERO federal income tax...

As someone once said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts...

[JMintzer]

I believe that Warren Buffett does give money toward elections. I am NOT so concerned that I would look up how much and to whom. I do know that his investment fund has a track record of beating the S +P in most years with almost 0 risk. Not sure what more he could do to avoid the few people that might criticize him.......walk on water?

I'm sure he does. He wanted to ensure the Keystone Pipeline was shut down...

Now why would he do that?, you may ask...

Because without the pipeline, the oil that was destined to carried via pipeline will now be carried by rail THAT HE OWNS... At a higher cost and higher risk and with more damage to the environment...

So very altruistic of him...

[tuccillo]

Before you criticize Elon Musk, please post your CV so we can see what you have accomplished in your working career. I am willing to bet it falls well short of Musk. You actually need a hero?

Elon Mush is LESS of a hero to me than someone like Warren Buffet who avoided the New York power investor class and lived and worked in Omaha, Ne. He stayed in his original home (not a megamansion). He left his children ONLY enough $ so that they would be COMFORTABLE, but not rich and they would NOT get lazy. He has stated that the tax laws are more stringent for his secretary than for himself and that IS a problem that hurts the WHOLE country. He laughs about people like SB-F and anyone that would invest with him.

I feel that he has a similar attitude about tax law and the DESPERATE need to strengthen the middle class. He would be a good expert to comment on our "dumpster fire" question. People have different business HEROES and
I prefer mine.......Mr. Warren Buffet........a man for the ages.......there are very few his equal !!!!!!! Certainly not Jack Welsh or that crypto ding-a-ling.

[JMintzer]

I will say that at some point in the FUTURE, a cryptocurrency might prove useful. Everything EVOLVES and someday may replace credit cards. Whatever shape that would take, it would need government blessing and regulation. The Wild West was less than 2 decades long, yet it has been internalized by modern Americans as practically a Religion of Individuality. Today's cryptocurrency advocates seem to share that rugged INDIVIDUAL mentality from the past. Just like believing that ONLY jack Welsh could run GE. And ONLY Elon Musk could do what Musk has done (and singlehandedly without any staff help). Most every aspect of modern life demands groups working together, NOT individually.

Maybe if Musk had treated the workers at Twitter with some dignity and shown some class in his takeover.........maybe (?) I could have some respect for him. What he did at that Company is the kind of thing that FORCES some workers to become Unionized. And Jeff Bezos is doing the same thing. The German economy does fine with Unions - which helps Germany AVOID these "dumpster fires" that we are talking about in the US. It all goes back to the base question...... is the US strong and does it have a strong middle-class.

Maybe if the employees at Twitter has less distain for the 1/2 of the American people, and hadn't worked behind the scenes to cripple our democracy, they wouldn't have been fired...

[Hardlyworking]

In lieu of prison, surrender her car, golf cart, and license permanently, pay restitution to the victims, two years community service.

[jimjamuser]

Tesla and Musk bought into Bitcoin a couple of years ago, but soured on the currency investment later on and sold it off before the crash. I’m not sure where your Musk assertion comes from? Currently the firm is into Dogecoin which is increasing its footing in the cryptocurrency market. Most companies he has invested in our blossoming beyond expectations. Space X has only upward prospects.
"Space X has only upward prospects".......is interesting because I ASSUME that it was stated as a fact - because it is ALSO a humorous pun. Obviously, they do not fire their rockets DOWNWARD into the ground.........TEE HEE

[jimjamuser]

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/6320001/204734757-8cb78f1c-4bff-40af-97bd-de09c079f937.gif
So, basically, you are saying that I do NOT deserve to have an OPINION. You attack me RELENTLESSLY no matter what the topic or what my opinion on that topic is. It has become a GAME with you. But, I stopped playing THAT game long ago. I have NOT recently gone out of MY way to disparage what you write. I have come to the conclusion that you and everyone else here are ENTITLED to HAVE an OPINION. I have no problem with that.

[jimjamuser]

Your OPINION is based on false information. As I've explained to you (and showed you the actual facts), several times, "the rich" in the 50's actually paid less of a percentage of their income in taxes as they do today. The 90% tax rate (that you continually point to) was a fallacy, due to the MASSIVE tax deductions available.

In the 50's, the middle class carried more of the tax burden than they do today,. and the poor paid more in taxes, where almost 50% of todays earners pay ZERO federal income tax...

As someone once said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts...
In the 2nd paragraph of the post - "In the 50s, the middle class carried more of the tax burden than they do today".......That is true. And the reason for the middle class paying a large share of the total US taxes is well known. Historically, the US was basically a MANUFACTURING country in the 50s and the workers in those mills had UNIONIZED (after fighting for them). People left the farms to work in the mills because the PAY was HIGH. The middle class had MONEY, so therefore they paid a LOT of the US taxes. ......THEN,
.........without going into ALL the detail, the uber-rich mill owners and stockholders FOUGHT back against the Unions by moving the location of PRODUCTION. They 1st moved to the US South, then Mexico, and finally to countries like Viet Nam and primarily China. This caused the US middle class and Unions to be virtually eliminated today. Effectively the money flowing to the US middle class in the 50s was now (today) sent to create a STRONG Chinese middle class and a STRONG Chinese country.

It seems to be ironic today to BLAME the middle and poor classes for NOT paying enough taxes ......when the US did that to itself because of GREED. Note.....the same case can be made for keeping school budgets LOW and school taxes LOW. It has ALL eaten away at the STRENGTH and fabric of the American dream. In the 1950s people would say that the NEXT generation will be better off than the PRIOR generation. Today, no one says that.......which sort of PROVES what I am saying .......does it not ?

I have some doubts that the last part of the 2nd paragraph is TRUE. But even if it IS, We, the US has only ourselves to blame. Also, paying taxes is a "pay-as-you-go system". So, the US collects the tax money from the working poor beginning in January. So, the Federal Government receives the interest on that money (the time value of money). Then, for the end of the year the worker files their tax form. Depending on exemptions and other factors, they may owe more or get a refund. It is UNFAIR to criticize their refund that they may have gotten because Congress makes the tax laws and part of their consideration may be SOCIAL STABILITY. Personally, I would not reward taxpayers for child exemptions greater than 2, but that IS the law and has BOTH advantages and disadvantages to society. Many people believe that poor and middle-class taxpayers CHEAT on their taxes. To me, this is a smokescreen for the REAL cheats .........the uber-wealthy and their uber-wealthy tax lawyers.

[jimjamuser]

I'm sure he does. He wanted to ensure the Keystone Pipeline was shut down...

Now why would he do that?, you may ask...

Because without the pipeline, the oil that was destined to carried via pipeline will now be carried by rail THAT HE OWNS... At a higher cost and higher risk and with more damage to the environment...

So very altruistic of him...
As everybody knows, the Keystone pipeline, as proposed, crossed over Native American lands and would have hurt and compromised their lives. Warren Buffet lives in Nebraska and, as such, may be MORE empathetic toward Native Americans than someone living on the East Coast or an OIL stockholder living in New York City.

MR. Buffet is known for his philanthropy, NOT his GREED.

[jimjamuser]

Before you criticize Elon Musk, please post your CV so we can see what you have accomplished in your working career. I am willing to bet it falls well short of Musk. You actually need a hero?
So, that's another version of "I don't deserve an OPINION". I thought that America was about everyone having freedom of speech and therefore an OPINION. Just like no one is above the law. If I would have to show credentials to be able to CRITICIZE Elon Musk, then that would say that ONLY rich CEOs and the uber-wealthy are allowed to express ANY criticism. What kind of society would that be? Was not the Constitution set up to encourage individual OPINIONS?

[tuccillo]

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. You can post your opinion about Musk but you should also post your CV so we can see your accomplishments. I think that is only fair since none of your criticisms of Musk have any validity. Also, stop shouting, it is rude.

So, that's another version of "I don't deserve an OPINION". I thought that America was about everyone having freedom of speech and therefore an OPINION. Just like no one is above the law. If I would have to show credentials to be able to CRITICIZE Elon Musk, then that would say that ONLY rich CEOs and the uber-wealthy are allowed to express ANY criticism. What kind of society would that be? Was not the Constitution set up to encourage individual OPINIONS?

[Aces4]

As everybody knows, the Keystone pipeline, as proposed, crossed over Native American lands and would have hurt and compromised their lives. Warren Buffet lives in Nebraska and, as such, may be MORE empathetic toward Native Americans than someone living on the East Coast or an OIL stockholder living in New York City.

MR. Buffet is known for his philanthropy, NOT his GREED.

So your telling us now that Mr. Buffet is down to a million dollars and isn’t greedy? How would you know personally any of these details? Compromised native American land is a real reach. So native Americans don’t benefits from the use of fossil fuels and all the products produced from said oil. There is so much stretch in this argument being presented.

[jimjamuser]

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. You can post your opinion about Musk but you should also post your CV so we can see your accomplishments. I think that is only fair since none of your criticisms of Musk have any validity. Also, stop shouting, it is rude.
"since none of my criticisms of Mr. Musk have any validity"......IS it NOT possible that some OTHER readers just MIGHT consider my criticisms VALID ? I also think that capitalizing some words in a sentence shows which words I chose to emphasize. I suppose I could use italics instead. But, that might slow down the TYPING process.

Also, I am NOT sure what the abbreviation CV means in this case. I doubt that Corona Virus or Constant Velocity joint is what was intended?

[jimjamuser]

So your telling us now that Mr. Buffet is down to a million dollars and isn’t greedy? How would you know personally any of these details? Compromised native American land is a real reach. So native Americans don’t benefits from the use of fossil fuels and all the products produced from said oil. There is so much stretch in this argument being presented.
I put forth my OPINION about the Oil Pipeline situation. There was a different post that had a different OPINION. Unless myself or another poster can READ the MIND of Mr. Buttet, then we are all just stating OPINIONS, which is what a social forum would be about mostly.
.........and even posting links are often just some other person's OPINION on a subject and NOT some "fixed in stone" scientific or mathematical fact. Most statements are really merely opinions. When people vote, that is just a tabulation of opinions. Is there a God? Some say that it IS a proven FACT. Others disagree. Is the Bible's version of things superior to Native Americans' idea of a Great Spirit? Maybe or ???????

[Aces4]

I put forth my OPINION about the Oil Pipeline situation. There was a different post that had a different OPINION. Unless myself or another poster can READ the MIND of Mr. Buttet, then we are all just stating OPINIONS, which is what a social forum would be about mostly.
.........and even posting links are often just some other person's OPINION on a subject and NOT some "fixed in stone" scientific or mathematical fact. Most statements are really merely opinions. When people vote, that is just a tabulation of opinions. Is there a God? Some say that it IS a proven FACT. Others disagree. Is the Bible's version of things superior to Native Americans' idea of a Great Spirit? Maybe or ???????

You prefaced your post in question with: “Everyone knows”. You just admitted we don’t know and you were only putting forth your opinion. You are creating dialog stating what you are saying is everyone’s truth. It’s not.

[JMintzer]

In the 2nd paragraph of the post - "In the 50s, the middle class carried more of the tax burden than they do today".......That is true. And the reason for the middle class paying a large share of the total US taxes is well known. Historically, the US was basically a MANUFACTURING country in the 50s and the workers in those mills had UNIONIZED (after fighting for them). People left the farms to work in the mills because the PAY was HIGH. The middle class had MONEY, so therefore they paid a LOT of the US taxes. ......THEN,
.........without going into ALL the detail, the uber-rich mill owners and stockholders FOUGHT back against the Unions by moving the location of PRODUCTION. They 1st moved to the US South, then Mexico, and finally to countries like Viet Nam and primarily China. This caused the US middle class and Unions to be virtually eliminated today. Effectively the money flowing to the US middle class in the 50s was now (today) sent to create a STRONG Chinese middle class and a STRONG Chinese country.

It seems to be ironic today to BLAME the middle and poor classes for NOT paying enough taxes ......when the US did that to itself because of GREED. Note.....the same case can be made for keeping school budgets LOW and school taxes LOW. It has ALL eaten away at the STRENGTH and fabric of the American dream. In the 1950s people would say that the NEXT generation will be better off than the PRIOR generation. Today, no one says that.......which sort of PROVES what I am saying .......does it not ?

I have some doubts that the last part of the 2nd paragraph is TRUE. But even if it IS, We, the US has only ourselves to blame. Also, paying taxes is a "pay-as-you-go system". So, the US collects the tax money from the working poor beginning in January. So, the Federal Government receives the interest on that money (the time value of money). Then, for the end of the year the worker files their tax form. Depending on exemptions and other factors, they may owe more or get a refund. It is UNFAIR to criticize their refund that they may have gotten because Congress makes the tax laws and part of their consideration may be SOCIAL STABILITY. Personally, I would not reward taxpayers for child exemptions greater than 2, but that IS the law and has BOTH advantages and disadvantages to society. Many people believe that poor and middle-class taxpayers CHEAT on their taxes. To me, this is a smokescreen for the REAL cheats .........the uber-wealthy and their uber-wealthy tax lawyers.

Have you ever done payroll for a company? I do. Every two weeks.

The "working poor" should not have ANY Federal Tax withholding. If they do, it's only because they want the "forced savings program" of the government taking their money for a year, paying them ZERO interest and then giving it back in April... Not a very sound financial policy...

I advise my employees to minimize their withholding, so they have access to ALL of their money. So far (and it's only been 35 years, so I may not be completely sure... :p), no one has complained...

No one complains if anyone gets a refund based on taxes paid. It's those who pay ZERO into the system and then get $1000s of dollars back who cause the raised eyebrows... Right now, that is almost 50% of the population...

And it was the US Tax laws that caused so much production to be moved overseas...

When "someone" started decreasing corporate taxes, overseas production started to return and the US treasury took in MORE money... go figure...

[JMintzer]

"since none of my criticisms of Mr. Musk have any validity"......IS it NOT possible that some OTHER readers just MIGHT consider my criticisms VALID ? I also think that capitalizing some words in a sentence shows which words I chose to emphasize. I suppose I could use italics instead. But, that might slow down the TYPING process.

Also, I am NOT sure what the abbreviation CV means in this case. I doubt that Corona Virus or Constant Velocity joint is what was intended?

"Curriculum Vitae"

Latin for "course of life", often shortened to CV) is a short written summary of a person's career, qualifications, and education...

[JMintzer]

As everybody knows, the Keystone pipeline, as proposed, crossed over Native American lands and would have hurt and compromised their lives. Warren Buffet lives in Nebraska and, as such, may be MORE empathetic toward Native Americans than someone living on the East Coast or an OIL stockholder living in New York City.

MR. Buffet is known for his philanthropy, NOT his GREED.

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

So, basically, you are saying that I do NOT deserve to have an OPINION. You attack me RELENTLESSLY no matter what the topic or what my opinion on that topic is. It has become a GAME with you. But, I stopped playing THAT game long ago. I have NOT recently gone out of MY way to disparage what you write. I have come to the conclusion that you and everyone else here are ENTITLED to HAVE an OPINION. I have no problem with that.

No, I refute the fallacies of your "OPINIONS...

Sorry, but you make yourself such an easy target.

And I'm not the only one who finds your OPINIONS based on FALSE INFORMATION...

Post all the OPINIONS you want. But when you try to back them up with nonsense, expect to be corrected...

[JMintzer]

As everybody knows, the Keystone pipeline, as proposed, crossed over Native American lands and would have hurt and compromised their lives. Warren Buffet lives in Nebraska and, as such, may be MORE empathetic toward Native Americans than someone living on the East Coast or an OIL stockholder living in New York City.

MR. Buffet is known for his philanthropy, NOT his GREED.

His rail lines cross Native American lands and are more likely to have oil spills. They also burn oil to run, adding to climate change...

Railroading Racism: Warren Buffett vs Northwest Indians | Intercontinental Cry (https://intercontinentalcry.org/railroading-racism-warren-buffett-vs-northwest-indians/)

[Pairadocs]

One man's fallacy is another man's fact and most important American principle - that a STRONG middle class makes a STRONG COUNTRY. Today we have a STRONG upper-income class.......just like the ancient Romans had when Rome fell. We have outsourced our MIDDLE-CLASS to China. Now everyone can see that THEY are taking that STRONG middle class and flexing their muscle against BOTH the US and Taiwan. So, yes I do think that the legislative changes to the tax RATES put in place for the benefit of the upper class after the 1950s are DANGEROUS for the US and the world. I AM aware of it, most are not. Please allow me to have an OPINION!

The above paragraph relates the BASIS that has allowed people from Jack Welsh and the Koch brothers to Steve Jobs, Sam Bankman-Fried, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, AND OUR FAVORITE IN THIS CONVERSATION--------the wonderful ELON MUSK - to PULL from the US economy more riches than any South American DICTATOR possesses. I am NOT saying that those individuals do NOT deserve to earn/accumulate more riches than people in the middle class. It is a matter of degree. Japanese CEOs used to (and still may) be embarrassed to make more than 10 times what their average line worker makes. Musk and Zuckerberg make thousands of times more than their worker bees. That is the DEGREE and the problem of which I speak. I am NOT saying to change the American system - just to make it fairer and RESTORE the middle class which the upper class has outsourced to China and other countries.

When we talk about a "dumpster fire" that is BOTH Musk and SB-F........they are merely actors taking ADVANTAGE of their GREATER environment. The US economic environment in which most resources / money have drifted upward from the middle-class to the uber-upper class from 1950 to today. That is the REAL dumpster fire!

I'm impressed ! To me, based on the friendly and inquisitive casual conversations I've tired to have with friends, neighbors, local coffee shop customers, it seems few people seem to actually understand the gradual diminishing of the middle class, and if they do "see" it happening, they have no idea of how/why this is happening. Most assume it's "just politics", the party in office, you are one of the few I have ever talked to or read a post from, who seems to truly understand the significance of "outsourcing" and the role manufacturing played in building the strong middle class that once existed here and fueled a roaring economy. Detroit, Gary, Indiana and all the ore ships on the great lakes, the manufacturing of steel, etc. Now, we are even dependent on our greatest threat for the most basic medications ! No this is not the "fault" of this or that political party. It's the result of an ever growing disinterest in what is HAPPENING to one's country, together with a growing spiritual bankruptcy...notice I did not mention this or that specific religion, but just a growing disinterest in the economy, in spiritual values, in pride in country, a long list of things that "used" to matter ! ? People appear to have become so fixated on calling each other liberal or conservative, democrat or republican, racist, homophobic (and all KINDS of "phobics" previously unheard of), that they simply have ignored what is really happening as we excitedly handed over even our medical future in exchange for cheaper goods; cell phones, athletic shoes, furniture, steel, appliances, computers, televisions, clothing, light bulbs, tires, this could go on forever but, if it lowered the price a few cents, or a few dollars, we were 100% supportive. It is so hard to get that toothpaste BACK into the TUBE !

[tuccillo]

No, I doubt any other readers would consider your opinions as fact. I generally don’t care for opinions since they are mostly rhetoric. I do care about facts.

CV is your resume. Before criticizing someone as accomplished as Musk you should establish your own bona fides otherwise it is just noise.

Capitalizing is yelling.


"since none of my criticisms of Mr. Musk have any validity"......IS it NOT possible that some OTHER readers just MIGHT consider my criticisms VALID ? I also think that capitalizing some words in a sentence shows which words I chose to emphasize. I suppose I could use italics instead. But, that might slow down the TYPING process.

Also, I am NOT sure what the abbreviation CV means in this case. I doubt that Corona Virus or Constant Velocity joint is what was intended?

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Before criticizing someone as accomplished as Musk you should establish your own bona fides otherwise it is just noise.


LOL! how about some real background on Musk, the narcissist sociopath. . in a funny video. .

https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1581734183189172224/pu/img/TAu9pHNm7suBtfBI?format=jpg&name=large

might actually shed some light on the "appearance of Musk being a genius". If you listen carefully to his language and then watch his actions, Musk is a narcissistic sociopath. . he uses words which easily causes believer's brains to make certain assumptive leaps. . certain decisions he makes is designed to weed out the non believers, as sociopaths' words and phrases are designed to search out for easily persuaded believers, or those who want to believe. . .

and your comments or criticisms won't change my opinion, having seen these types, and have self educated myself, not professionally, to be able to spot these types, after previously having been married to one.

psych guy

[tuccillo]

Accomplished people often are quirky. My comment was that he is accomplished. Hard to argue with that. Whether you care for him or not is largely irrelevant.


LOL! how about some real background on Musk, the narcissist sociopath. . in a funny video. .

https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1581734183189172224/pu/img/TAu9pHNm7suBtfBI?format=jpg&name=large

might actually shed some light on the "appearance of Musk being a genius". If you listen carefully to his language and then watch his actions, Musk is a narcissistic sociopath. . he uses words which easily causes believer's brains to make certain assumptive leaps. . certain decisions he makes is designed to weed out the non believers, as sociopaths' words and phrases are designed to search out for easily persuaded believers, or those who want to believe. . .

and your comments or criticisms won't change my opinion, having seen these types, and have self educated myself, not professionally, to be able to spot these types, after previously having been married to one.

psych guy

[Normal]

Why do you propel hatred towards Musk, someone you don’t even know? Then you throw things like Bitcoin as extra hay for a fire just because his company at one time had a partial investment with them.

The fact of the matter liked or not, he has moved the electric car innovations and space travels to new levels. I don’t care for Musk as a person; I’m just wondering about your emotional premises. His progressive moves towards technology improvement can’t be ignored. What are you trying to say?

[ithos]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So when the FBI conspired with Twitter employees to squelch opinions critical of or contrary to the government policies, then they were clearly violating citizens first amendment rights.

So that is why I consider him a true hero despite his numerous flaws. Of course many disagree because they believe that the ends justify the means. But if you have to resort to censorship to promote your opinion then perhaps you should reconsider your position.

[Normal]

[I]
So when the FBI conspired with Twitter employees to squelch opinions critical of or contrary to the government policies, then they were clearly violating citizens first amendment rights.

So that is why consider him a true hero despite his numerous flaws. Of course many disagree because they believe that the ends justify the means. But if you have to resort to censorship to promote your opinion then perhaps you should reconsider your position.

I couldn’t agree more. The moves he made to free Twitter from the bias it tried to peddle as fact, could be considered an act of charity and a great tax write off. Kudos to the gift he gave back to our country. You wouldn’t see Bazos or Buffet giving back like that.

[Aces4]

LOL! how about some real background on Musk, the narcissist sociopath. . in a funny video. .

https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1581734183189172224/pu/img/TAu9pHNm7suBtfBI?format=jpg&name=large

might actually shed some light on the "appearance of Musk being a genius". If you listen carefully to his language and then watch his actions, Musk is a narcissistic sociopath. . he uses words which easily causes believer's brains to make certain assumptive leaps. . certain decisions he makes is designed to weed out the non believers, as sociopaths' words and phrases are designed to search out for easily persuaded believers, or those who want to believe. . .

and your comments or criticisms won't change my opinion, having seen these types, and have self educated myself, not professionally, to be able to spot these types, after previously having been married to one.

psych guy


To be on point, we personally don’t know you or your ex so who are we to judge which one was the narcissist.

I do know how most of the hate piled on Musk is related to his pulling back the sheet and exposing things for what they were and it’s pretty devastating.

[jimjamuser]

Have you ever done payroll for a company? I do. Every two weeks.

The "working poor" should not have ANY Federal Tax withholding. If they do, it's only because they want the "forced savings program" of the government taking their money for a year, paying them ZERO interest and then giving it back in April... Not a very sound financial policy...

I advise my employees to minimize their withholding, so they have access to ALL of their money. So far (and it's only been 35 years, so I may not be completely sure... :p), no one has complained...

No one complains if anyone gets a refund based on taxes paid. It's those who pay ZERO into the system and then get $1000s of dollars back who cause the raised eyebrows... Right now, that is almost 50% of the population...

And it was the US Tax laws that caused so much production to be moved overseas...

When "someone" started decreasing corporate taxes, overseas production started to return and the US treasury took in MORE money... go figure...
Paragraph 4.......The only way a worker could pay ZERO to the Federal Government is to be making the old minimum wages in some states and be married and have about 5 children. I would guess that 80% of all workers are paying something INTO the Federal Government which is getting the benefit of the "time value of money". I would NOT allow that many exemptions if I were making the laws so there would NOT be "50% of the people paying ZERO and getting $1,000s back". I imagine that the Federal Government does that because it is more efficient in preventing starving people on the streets than by paying OUT more in food stamps and housing allowances. Since the US middle class has been "outsourced" to China and created and built up their middle class, now WE HAVE no real MIDDLE CLASS ........so we have to pay for OUR non-working middle class. And the uber-rich laugh all the way to the bank !

And it is my 1st and 2nd paragraph (that were ignored) that were the more IMPORTANT paragraphs. Where I gave the History from 1950-on about how US greed partnered up with China to decimate the US middle class. And I stated the FACT that subsequent generations kept being LESS well-off than their prior generations. That, I believe, was my "EVERYBODY KNOWS" statement that another poster had some (?) problem with.

It is interesting that I just read this morning an article saying that some US companies are moving their manufacturing operations BACK from China to Mexico to punish China and get cheaper shipping. They MUST have read my recent posts. I guess that after Mexico becomes less attractive to them (murders of executives and etc.) they will move back to the US South. And then to get cheaper electrical energy or smarter workers, they will move back to NorthEastern US.........which is where they started in the 1950s. Humorous isn't it????? Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

[tuccillo]

How do you get so many easily checked facts wrong? Why would you guess when you can look it up? Amazing. Since the post you responded to referenced Federal Income Taxes, I will restrict my comment to that and not consider FICA, which everyone who gets a W-2 pays. In 2021, 57% of households had no Federal Income Tax liability in 2021. The number will be less in 2022.

Paragraph 4.......The only way a worker could pay ZERO to the Federal Government is to be making the old minimum wages in some states and be married and have about 5 children. I would guess that 80% of all workers are paying something INTO the Federal Government which is getting the benefit of the "time value of money". I would NOT allow that many exemptions if I were making the laws so there would NOT be "50% of the people paying ZERO and getting $1,000s back". I imagine that the Federal Government does that because it is more efficient in preventing starving people on the streets than by paying OUT more in food stamps and housing allowances. Since the US middle class has been "outsourced" to China and created and built up their middle class, now WE HAVE no real MIDDLE CLASS ........so we have to pay for OUR non-working middle class. And the uber-rich laugh all the way to the bank !

And it is my 1st and 2nd paragraph (that were ignored) that were the more IMPORTANT paragraphs. Where I gave the History from 1950-on about how US greed partnered up with China to decimate the US middle class. And I stated the FACT that subsequent generations kept being LESS well-off than their prior generations. That, I believe, was my "EVERYBODY KNOWS" statement that another poster had some (?) problem with.

It is interesting that I just read this morning an article saying that some US companies are moving their manufacturing operations BACK from China to Mexico to punish China and get cheaper shipping. They MUST have read my recent posts. I guess that after Mexico becomes less attractive to them (murders of executives and etc.) they will move back to the US South. And then to get cheaper electrical energy or smarter workers, they will move back to NorthEastern US.........which is where they started in the 1950s. Humorous isn't it????? Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

[Kenswing]

How do you get so many easily checked facts wrong? Why would you guess when you can look it up? Amazing. Since the post you responded to referenced Federal Income Taxes, I will restrict my comment to that and not consider FICA, which everyone who gets a W-2 pays. In 2021, 57% of households had no Federal Income Tax liability in 2021. The number will be less in 2022.
Agenda driven laziness. Or as he says it’s just his opinion so it doesn’t have to be accurate or fact driven.

[jimjamuser]

"Curriculum Vitae"

Latin for "course of life", often shortened to CV) is a short written summary of a person's career, qualifications, and education...
OK thank you. I DID NOT know that. That makes more sense than Constant Velocity joint, which is MY fav CV expression. As far as my personal CV, which some other poster was keenly interested in, if my CV was at the level of Mr. Musk's, I believe that I would NOT be living in The Villages. Rather, I think, I would go with the French Riviera in the winter and Sweden or Finland in the summer. And lots of trips to New Zealand. Oh, Yes...... the beauty of travel of the imagination.

[tuccillo]

I am not keenly interested in your CV. I was, however, trying to get you to realize that any and all of your criticisms of Elon Musk are probably born out of envy of his accomplishments. Also, criticizing something of which you have no expertise is pointless. For example, if I was to criticize how Tom Brady spins the football.

OK thank you. I DID NOT know that. That makes more sense than Constant Velocity joint, which is MY fav CV expression. As far as my personal CV, which some other poster was keenly interested in, if my CV was at the level of Mr. Musk's, I believe that I would NOT be living in The Villages. Rather, I think, I would go with the French Riviera in the winter and Sweden or Finland in the summer. And lots of trips to New Zealand. Oh, Yes...... the beauty of travel of the imagination.

[jimjamuser]

No, I refute the fallacies of your "OPINIONS...

Sorry, but you make yourself such an easy target.

And I'm not the only one who finds your OPINIONS based on FALSE INFORMATION...

Post all the OPINIONS you want. But when you try to back them up with nonsense, expect to be corrected...
OK, I will give an OPINION of mine that is almost entirely mine. Although somewhere in this big, wide, beautiful world someone, somewhere may have expressed a similar OPINION.
.......I believe that Richard Nixon's trip to China to open trading between the two countries - and contrary to popular History and belief - was a COLLASAL mistake. And I have previously posted the DETAILS of WHY I came to that conclusion. So, that is merely MY opinion. And if someone cares to post a counter-argument, I would be VERY interested to read it.

[Aces4]

OK, I will give an OPINION of mine that is almost entirely mine. Although somewhere in this big, wide, beautiful world someone, somewhere may have expressed a similar OPINION.
.......I believe that Richard Nixon's trip to China to open trading between the two countries - and contrary to popular History and belief - was a COLLASAL mistake. And I have previously posted the DETAILS of WHY I came to that conclusion. So, that is merely MY opinion. And if someone cares to post a counter-argument, I would be VERY interested to read it.


I’ll bite and I hope you find it interesting. This whole post should be in a thread of its own. It is waaay off
topic.

[Aces4]

Paragraph 4.......The only way a worker could pay ZERO to the Federal Government is to be making the old minimum wages in some states and be married and have about 5 children. I would guess that 80% of all workers are paying something INTO the Federal Government which is getting the benefit of the "time value of money". I would NOT allow that many exemptions if I were making the laws so there would NOT be "50% of the people paying ZERO and getting $1,000s back". I imagine that the Federal Government does that because it is more efficient in preventing starving people on the streets than by paying OUT more in food stamps and housing allowances. Since the US middle class has been "outsourced" to China and created and built up their middle class, now WE HAVE no real MIDDLE CLASS ........so we have to pay for OUR non-working middle class. And the uber-rich laugh all the way to the bank !

And it is my 1st and 2nd paragraph (that were ignored) that were the more IMPORTANT paragraphs. Where I gave the History from 1950-on about how US greed partnered up with China to decimate the US middle class. And I stated the FACT that subsequent generations kept being LESS well-off than their prior generations. That, I believe, was my "EVERYBODY KNOWS" statement that another poster had some (?) problem with.

It is interesting that I just read this morning an article saying that some US companies are moving their manufacturing operations BACK from China to Mexico to punish China and get cheaper shipping. They MUST have read my recent posts. I guess that after Mexico becomes less attractive to them (murders of executives and etc.) they will move back to the US South. And then to get cheaper electrical energy or smarter workers, they will move back to NorthEastern US.........which is where they started in the 1950s. Humorous isn't it????? Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

Talk about windmills…

[jimjamuser]

His rail lines cross Native American lands and are more likely to have oil spills. They also burn oil to run, adding to climate change...

Railroading Racism: Warren Buffett vs Northwest Indians | Intercontinental Cry (https://intercontinentalcry.org/railroading-racism-warren-buffett-vs-northwest-indians/)
OK, I read that link. It was a hard read and complicated. And it does make EVERYONE engaged in moving the oil either by pipeline or railcars, including Warren Buffet, seem responsible for serious environmental degradation. Railcars have crashed and pipelines have ruptured creating BIG problems. It seems like a lot of blame to go around, starting with BIG OIL.
....The US has enough oil for its own needs. It looks like the US is jeopardizing its own environment to satisfy the NEEDS of other countries. It makes me think back to some of my "big picture" comments - that the world population of 8 billion people that increased rapidly since 1900 - seems to be the ROOT cause of this crude oil problem and most other PROBLEMS.
.......And that leads to one of the positive aspects of Elon Musk's life, namely manufacturing a well-liked Electric automobile. Which could help with our OIL DEPENDENCY. I will give him credit for that, but NOT for Twitter. I do not know if Warren Buffet has ANY investments in electric vehicles. He probably does invest in electrical power companies. I will have to check that. And possibly natural gas?

[jimjamuser]

I'm impressed ! To me, based on the friendly and inquisitive casual conversations I've tired to have with friends, neighbors, local coffee shop customers, it seems few people seem to actually understand the gradual diminishing of the middle class, and if they do "see" it happening, they have no idea of how/why this is happening. Most assume it's "just politics", the party in office, you are one of the few I have ever talked to or read a post from, who seems to truly understand the significance of "outsourcing" and the role manufacturing played in building the strong middle class that once existed here and fueled a roaring economy. Detroit, Gary, Indiana and all the ore ships on the great lakes, the manufacturing of steel, etc. Now, we are even dependent on our greatest threat for the most basic medications ! No this is not the "fault" of this or that political party. It's the result of an ever growing disinterest in what is HAPPENING to one's country, together with a growing spiritual bankruptcy...notice I did not mention this or that specific religion, but just a growing disinterest in the economy, in spiritual values, in pride in country, a long list of things that "used" to matter ! ? People appear to have become so fixated on calling each other liberal or conservative, democrat or republican, racist, homophobic (and all KINDS of "phobics" previously unheard of), that they simply have ignored what is really happening as we excitedly handed over even our medical future in exchange for cheaper goods; cell phones, athletic shoes, furniture, steel, appliances, computers, televisions, clothing, light bulbs, tires, this could go on forever but, if it lowered the price a few cents, or a few dollars, we were 100% supportive. It is so hard to get that toothpaste BACK into the TUBE !
Thank you !!!!! I do NOT get much support because, I suppose, that many people consider my take / ideas to be "OUT THERE" (Somewhere in left field maybe). But, really as you suggested, my discussion was about the History of the middle class, which is VERY basic to ALL of us. And it is Patriotic to remember back when America was getting better every 20 years - each new generation had great optimism after WW2.

Something broke that pattern and I felt that I had a right (and an obligation) to give my OPINION as to how and WHY that pattern got BROKEN. I look for patterns and I prefer to "see the forest and not the trees". Sometimes I don't see the trees correctly enough, which is not uncommon.

[jimjamuser]

LOL! how about some real background on Musk, the narcissist sociopath. . in a funny video. .

https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1581734183189172224/pu/img/TAu9pHNm7suBtfBI?format=jpg&name=large

might actually shed some light on the "appearance of Musk being a genius". If you listen carefully to his language and then watch his actions, Musk is a narcissistic sociopath. . he uses words which easily causes believer's brains to make certain assumptive leaps. . certain decisions he makes is designed to weed out the non believers, as sociopaths' words and phrases are designed to search out for easily persuaded believers, or those who want to believe. . .

and your comments or criticisms won't change my opinion, having seen these types, and have self educated myself, not professionally, to be able to spot these types, after previously having been married to one.

psych guy
Great informative post !

[jimjamuser]

How do you get so many easily checked facts wrong? Why would you guess when you can look it up? Amazing. Since the post you responded to referenced Federal Income Taxes, I will restrict my comment to that and not consider FICA, which everyone who gets a W-2 pays. In 2021, 57% of households had no Federal Income Tax liability in 2021. The number will be less in 2022.
I believe that tax LIABILITY is an end-of-year determination. Taxes are taken out by State and Federal governments on a paycheck-by-paycheck basis. So, I am GUESSING that about 80% of all WORKERS pay some taxes. And I am JUST not interested / curious or have sufficient time to look up everything.

[jimjamuser]

I am not keenly interested in your CV. I was, however, trying to get you to realize that any and all of your criticisms of Elon Musk are probably born out of envy of his accomplishments. Also, criticizing something of which you have no expertise is pointless. For example, if I was to criticize how Tom Brady spins the football.
I am not critical of Mr. Musk's ACCOMPLISHMENTS, but his CONTOL of Twitter is a "dumpster fire", not an accomplishment.

[tuccillo]

In your not so expert opinion, which is devoid of any facts, as usual. I can only assume that you mourn the end of the left-wing censorship that was taking place.


I am not critical of Mr. Musk's ACCOMPLISHMENTS, but his CONTOL of Twitter is a "dumpster fire", not an accomplishment.

[tuccillo]

OK, I see your point but any Federal Income Taxes withheld were completely returned when they filed their taxes for over half of the households in 2021. Fortunately the percentage will be dropping back to 40% of households having no Federal Income Tax liability.

I believe that tax LIABILITY is an end-of-year determination. Taxes are taken out by State and Federal governments on a paycheck-by-paycheck basis. So, I am GUESSING that about 80% of all WORKERS pay some taxes. And I am JUST not interested / curious or have sufficient time to look up everything.

[tuccillo]

Not exactly. We currently consume more oil than we produce. All oil is not the same, however, and we do import foreign oil because of it's characteristics. We also refine our own production and imported oil into refined products and ship those overseas. We also import refined products. Oil and the refined products from oil are global commodities.

OK, I read that link. It was a hard read and complicated. And it does make EVERYONE engaged in moving the oil either by pipeline or railcars, including Warren Buffet, seem responsible for serious environmental degradation. Railcars have crashed and pipelines have ruptured creating BIG problems. It seems like a lot of blame to go around, starting with BIG OIL.
....The US has enough oil for its own needs. It looks like the US is jeopardizing its own environment to satisfy the NEEDS of other countries. It makes me think back to some of my "big picture" comments - that the world population of 8 billion people that increased rapidly since 1900 - seems to be the ROOT cause of this crude oil problem and most other PROBLEMS.
.......And that leads to one of the positive aspects of Elon Musk's life, namely manufacturing a well-liked Electric automobile. Which could help with our OIL DEPENDENCY. I will give him credit for that, but NOT for Twitter. I do not know if Warren Buffet has ANY investments in electric vehicles. He probably does invest in electrical power companies. I will have to check that. And possibly natural gas?

[Aces4]

I am not critical of Mr. Musk's ACCOMPLISHMENTS, but his CONTOL of Twitter is a "dumpster fire", not an accomplishment.

Best thing he could have done for this country. Open your eyes.

[tvbound]

Musk is NOT revealing any big conspiracies, he has simply removed the controls that tried limiting completely false rumors/conspiracies that the old Twitter tried to minimize. Now, the ridiculous lies, crazy conspiracies, antisemitism and pent-up hate by certain demographics - are being allowed to proliferate.

Why and how, would any decent person (especially those claiming to be Christians)...applaud what is currently happening?

Hate Speech’s Rise on Twitter Under Elon Musk Is Unprecedented, Researchers Find - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/technology/twitter-hate-speech.html)


Before Elon Musk bought Twitter, slurs against Black Americans showed up on the social media service an average of 1,282 times a day. After the billionaire became Twitter’s owner, they jumped to 3,876 times a day.

Slurs against gay men appeared on Twitter 2,506 times a day on average before Mr. Musk took over. Afterward, their use rose to 3,964 times a day.

And antisemitic posts referring to Jews or Judaism soared more than 61 percent in the two weeks after Mr. Musk acquired the site.

These findings — from the Center for Countering Digital Hate, the Anti-Defamation League and other groups that study online platforms — provide the most comprehensive picture to date of how conversations on Twitter have changed since Mr. Musk completed his $44 billion deal for the company in late October.

[Aces4]

Musk is NOT revealing any big conspiracies, he has simply removed the controls that tried limiting completely false rumors/conspiracies that the old Twitter tried to minimize. Now, the ridiculous lies, crazy conspiracies, antisemitism and pent-up hate by certain demographics - are being allowed to proliferate.

Why and how, would any decent person (especially those claiming to be Christians)...applaud what is currently happening?

Hate Speech’s Rise on Twitter Under Elon Musk Is Unprecedented, Researchers Find - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/technology/twitter-hate-speech.html)


Before Elon Musk bought Twitter, slurs against Black Americans showed up on the social media service an average of 1,282 times a day. After the billionaire became Twitter’s owner, they jumped to 3,876 times a day.

Slurs against gay men appeared on Twitter 2,506 times a day on average before Mr. Musk took over. Afterward, their use rose to 3,964 times a day.

And antisemitic posts referring to Jews or Judaism soared more than 61 percent in the two weeks after Mr. Musk acquired the site.

These findings — from the Center for Countering Digital Hate, the Anti-Defamation League and other groups that study online platforms — provide the most comprehensive picture to date of how conversations on Twitter have changed since Mr. Musk completed his $44 billion deal for the company in late October.

A huge conspiracy was uncovered when Elon bought Twitter. Anyone who saw the released information by Musk regarding the previously owned Twitter and wasn’t alarmed as to what was happening, is deluding themselves and helping suppress free speech in this country. Those anti Semitic rates soared but those posters were quickly shut down.

[jimjamuser]

I'm impressed ! To me, based on the friendly and inquisitive casual conversations I've tired to have with friends, neighbors, local coffee shop customers, it seems few people seem to actually understand the gradual diminishing of the middle class, and if they do "see" it happening, they have no idea of how/why this is happening. Most assume it's "just politics", the party in office, you are one of the few I have ever talked to or read a post from, who seems to truly understand the significance of "outsourcing" and the role manufacturing played in building the strong middle class that once existed here and fueled a roaring economy. Detroit, Gary, Indiana and all the ore ships on the great lakes, the manufacturing of steel, etc. Now, we are even dependent on our greatest threat for the most basic medications ! No this is not the "fault" of this or that political party. It's the result of an ever growing disinterest in what is HAPPENING to one's country, together with a growing spiritual bankruptcy...notice I did not mention this or that specific religion, but just a growing disinterest in the economy, in spiritual values, in pride in country, a long list of things that "used" to matter ! ? People appear to have become so fixated on calling each other liberal or conservative, democrat or republican, racist, homophobic (and all KINDS of "phobics" previously unheard of), that they simply have ignored what is really happening as we excitedly handed over even our medical future in exchange for cheaper goods; cell phones, athletic shoes, furniture, steel, appliances, computers, televisions, clothing, light bulbs, tires, this could go on forever but, if it lowered the price a few cents, or a few dollars, we were 100% supportive. It is so hard to get that toothpaste BACK into the TUBE !
Yes, the resurrection of the US middle class is a DIFFICULT problem. The 1st step in solving a problem is to RECOGNISE the problem. The "slipping away" of the middle class has happened S-L-O-W-L-Y. So slowly that the public KNEW that each generation after 1950 became LESS "well off". They did NOT know WHY.
........The answer being OUTSOURCING to China, which we see now as a BIG mistake.

The "dumpster fires" of Twitter and crypto-clown SB-F are just the EXPECTED results of the overall LOSS of the US middle class.

[jimjamuser]

In your not so expert opinion, which is devoid of any facts, as usual. I can only assume that you mourn the end of the left-wing censorship that was taking place.
I would have a hard time "mourning" the loss of left-wing censorship ( I assume of Mr. Musk).......because I HAD and still have no clue that there is such a thing going on. I simply believe that many (not all) people of whatever stripe are critical of Mr. Musk because of his actions during his takeover of Twitter. He fired 1/2 of the employees there. Some people have commented that it was a GOOD move on his part. I see it as selfish and cold-hearted. I do have an inclination to side with employees OVER upper management because upper management is often out-of-touch with the key elements that make a business run smoothly. They often have an inclination to be elitist and authoritarian. I do NOT believe in top-down management. I believe in the principles of Circles of Management
which involve even the lowest line worker in the functioning of a business. That is ACTUALLY a good business decision because those businesses tend to be the MOST profitable because the workers can actually FEEL that they are important to the business. Toyota and other Japanese car makers used those principles back in 1970 to overtake and outcompete the established US car manufacturers EVEN here in the US. So I know that it works.

And the point being that at Twitter Elon Musk has broken ALL THE PRINCIPLES of Circles of Management. And he has gotten INCREDIBLY BAD press that he may never recover from. And for what? .......a personal VANITY project.

[Aces4]

Yes, the resurrection of the US middle class is a DIFFICULT problem. The 1st step in solving a problem is to RECOGNISE the problem. The "slipping away" of the middle class has happened S-L-O-W-L-Y. So slowly that the public KNEW that each generation after 1950 became LESS "well off". They did NOT know WHY.
........The answer being OUTSOURCING to China, which we see now as a BIG mistake.

The "dumpster fires" of Twitter and crypto-clown SB-F are just the EXPECTED results of the overall LOSS of the US middle class.

All dumpster fires and clowns are in the mind when one is unable to grasp reality and truly absorb the actual truths of the situations they try to perpetuate as ruination. An independent, truth-seeking mind is a gift. Losing touch with reality is a calamity.

[jimjamuser]

Musk is NOT revealing any big conspiracies, he has simply removed the controls that tried limiting completely false rumors/conspiracies that the old Twitter tried to minimize. Now, the ridiculous lies, crazy conspiracies, antisemitism and pent-up hate by certain demographics - are being allowed to proliferate.

Why and how, would any decent person (especially those claiming to be Christians)...applaud what is currently happening?

Hate Speech’s Rise on Twitter Under Elon Musk Is Unprecedented, Researchers Find - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/technology/twitter-hate-speech.html)


Before Elon Musk bought Twitter, slurs against Black Americans showed up on the social media service an average of 1,282 times a day. After the billionaire became Twitter’s owner, they jumped to 3,876 times a day.

Slurs against gay men appeared on Twitter 2,506 times a day on average before Mr. Musk took over. Afterward, their use rose to 3,964 times a day.

And antisemitic posts referring to Jews or Judaism soared more than 61 percent in the two weeks after Mr. Musk acquired the site.

These findings — from the Center for Countering Digital Hate, the Anti-Defamation League and other groups that study online platforms — provide the most comprehensive picture to date of how conversations on Twitter have changed since Mr. Musk completed his $44 billion deal for the company in late October.
That is a GREAT post and I agree with all of it. I heard a prediction on a TV news program that groups like the Proud boys and the Oath Keepers are ZEROING in on transgender people and are likely to engage in serious violence against that group of Americans. It reminds me of the beginning of Hitler's rise to power that I read about in a book titled. "The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich". The idea being to pick a weak group and flex their muscles against that weak group thereby feeling stronger by tearing at a weak seam in society. History seems to be repeating itself.
......Another discussion on the news channel was that Europe and other countries are looking at the US violence-prone groups with GREAT concern. Europe is a co-dependent with the US as freedom-loving countries. Europe needs a strong US and seems HORRIFIED by what it sees as cracks and weaknesses in US society.
.......For a long time, I have felt that Russian trolls have been successful at exploiting group differences and hatreds which exist in the US. It is hard to quantify the amount of chaos that they have succeeded in creating in the US. Yet, we can quantify the increase in membership among the Proud Boys and ALL the other extremist groups. To me, these groups seem to feel left out of society for various reasons, so they get together and BOND either in person or on media and the HATE flows out of them.
........I also connect their DISPLEASURE to the general loss of economic and even spiritual strength of the US middle class. I am NOT sure that they are completely AWARE of the exact reasons for their despair. But, they know that SOMETHING has let them down and they then are willing to resort mindlessly to consoling themselves with violence. To me, they are only a SYMPTOM of a greater disease.

[Aces4]

That is a GREAT post and I agree with all of it. I heard a prediction on a TV news program that groups like the Proud boys and the Oath Keepers are ZEROING in on transgender people and are likely to engage in serious violence against that group of Americans. It reminds me of the beginning of Hitler's rise to power that I read about in a book titled. "The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich". The idea being to pick a weak group and flex their muscles against that weak group thereby feeling stronger by tearing at a weak seam in society. History seems to be repeating itself.
......Another discussion on the news channel was that Europe and other countries are looking at the US violence-prone groups with GREAT concern. Europe is a co-dependent with the US as freedom-loving countries. Europe needs a strong US and seems HORRIFIED by what it sees as cracks and weaknesses in US society.
.......For a long time, I have felt that Russian trolls have been successful at exploiting group differences and hatreds which exist in the US. It is hard to quantify the amount of chaos that they have succeeded in creating in the US. Yet, we can quantify the increase in membership among the Proud Boys and ALL the other extremist groups. To me, these groups seem to feel left out of society for various reasons, so they get together and BOND either in person or on media and the HATE flows out of them.
........I also connect their DISPLEASURE to the general loss of economic and even spiritual strength of the US middle class. I am NOT sure that they are completely AWARE of the exact reasons for their despair. But, they know that SOMETHING has let them down and they then are willing to resort mindlessly to consoling themselves with violence. To me, they are only a SYMPTOM of a greater disease.

And I’ll bet that TV news program was one of those perpetuating violence and lies. As I said earlier, closed minds won’t search any further, won’t see the truth. Independent research and rational judgment escapes them.

[jimjamuser]

All dumpster fires and clowns are in the mind when one is unable to grasp reality and truly absorb the actual truths of the situations they try to perpetuate as ruination. An independent, truth-seeking mind is a gift. Losing touch with reality is a calamity.
Well, thanks a lot for that observation. I will act on it IMMEDIATELY by going down for a MIND-checkup at my local psychiatry GARAGE and asking for a tune-up.

[Aces4]

Well, thanks a lot for that observation. I will act on it IMMEDIATELY by going down for a MIND-checkup at my local psychiatry GARAGE and asking for a tune-up.

That’s your decision. I won’t argue that point with you.

[JMintzer]

Paragraph 4.......The only way a worker could pay ZERO to the Federal Government is to be making the old minimum wages in some states and be married and have about 5 children. I would guess that 80% of all workers are paying something INTO the Federal Government which is getting the benefit of the "time value of money". I would NOT allow that many exemptions if I were making the laws so there would NOT be "50% of the people paying ZERO and getting $1,000s back". I imagine that the Federal Government does that because it is more efficient in preventing starving people on the streets than by paying OUT more in food stamps and housing allowances. Since the US middle class has been "outsourced" to China and created and built up their middle class, now WE HAVE no real MIDDLE CLASS ........so we have to pay for OUR non-working middle class. And the uber-rich laugh all the way to the bank !

Per the IRS, you would be wrong. It's nowhere NEAR 80%. It's actually just under the 50% number I stated...

Oh, and the numbers were even higher in 2020 (61%) and in 2021 (57%). But those years were skewed due to Covid shutdowns...

Here is an example from 2009...

Is it true that only 53 percent of Americans pay income tax? | HowStuffWorks (https://money.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm)

And it is my 1st and 2nd paragraph (that were ignored) that were the more IMPORTANT paragraphs. Where I gave the History from 1950-on about how US greed partnered up with China to decimate the US middle class. And I stated the FACT that subsequent generations kept being LESS well-off than their prior generations. That, I believe, was my "EVERYBODY KNOWS" statement that another poster had some (?) problem with.

Who are these imaginary "GREED" boogeymen you're talking about? Do they have meetings? A secret handshake?

And no, since the 50's subsequent generations did not do worse than their parents. That is a recent development...

No no, EVERYBODY does not know that false statement...

It is interesting that I just read this morning an article saying that some US companies are moving their manufacturing operations BACK from China to Mexico to punish China and get cheaper shipping. They MUST have read my recent posts. I guess that after Mexico becomes less attractive to them (murders of executives and etc.) they will move back to the US South. And then to get cheaper electrical energy or smarter workers, they will move back to NorthEastern US.........which is where they started in the 1950s. Humorous isn't it????? Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.

Yes, manufacturing in China started moving back some 5-6 years ago... I wonder what the cause was (your "tongue in cheek" delusions of grandeur not withstanding...).

But they will only return to the US if the politicians don't resume raising corporate taxes. Simple economics...

[tvbound]

A huge conspiracy was uncovered when Elon bought Twitter. Anyone who saw the released information by Musk regarding the previously owned Twitter and wasn’t alarmed as to what was happening, is deluding themselves and helping suppress free speech in this country. Those anti Semitic rates soared but those posters were quickly shut down.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on a few points. In trying not to cross that 'P' line here, my quick response is: 1. Twitter was simply following its own internal rules of not passing on unsubstantiated and unproved, at the time, conspiracies right before an election. 2. Just like this, or any other site, the 1st A has absolutely NOTHING to do with private speech or businesses (other than the yelling fire in a theater/similar utterances). 3. The antisemitic and racist/bigoted comments are continuing at a record rate and are not being shut down or deleted, primarily because those people who previously would see them and stop it - were long ago fired.

So saying that Twitter was "suppressing free speech" is actually quite silly. Particularly given all of the other private sites, businesses and people, that never met a wacko conspiracy or outrageous lie that they didn't love...and publish or pass on. lol

[Caymus]

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on a few points. In trying not to cross that 'P' line here, my quick response is: 1. Twitter was simply following its own internal rules of not passing on unsubstantiated and unproved, at the time, conspiracies right before an election. 2. Just like this, or any other site, the 1st A has absolutely NOTHING to do with private speech or businesses (other than the yelling fire in a theater/similar utterances). 3. The antisemitic and racist/bigoted comments are continuing at a record rate and are not being shut down or deleted, primarily because those people who previously would see them and stop it - were long ago fired.

So saying that Twitter was "suppressing free speech" is actually quite silly. Particularly given all of the other private sites, businesses and people, that never met a wacko conspiracy or outrageous lie that they didn't love...and publish or pass on. lol


So, don't use Twitter.

[Normal]

Evidently Musk has done quite well with Tesla this year.

Tesla reports 1.31 million deliveries in 2022, growth of 40% over last year

Tesla reports 1.31 million deliveries in 2022, growth of 40% over last year (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/tesla-reports-131-million-deliveries-in-2022-growth-of-40-over-last-year/ar-AA15TGEv)

We need to see what Twitter will do. He hasn’t owned it more than a couple months. The overhaul could bring very good results.

[jimjamuser]

Per the IRS, you would be wrong. It's nowhere NEAR 80%> It's actually just under the 50% number I stated...

Oh, and the numbers were even higher in 2020 (61%) and in 2021 (57%). But those years were skewed due to Covid shutdowns...

Here is an example from 2009...

Is it true that only 53 percent of Americans pay income tax? | HowStuffWorks (https://money.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm)



Who are these imaginary "GREED" boogeymen you're talking about? Do they have meetings? A secret handshake?

And no, since the 50's subsequent generations did not do worse than their parents. That is a recent development...

No no, EVERYBODY does not know that false statement...



Yes, manufacturing in China started moving back some 5-6 years ago... I wonder what the cause was (your "tongue in cheek" delusions of grandeur not withstanding...).

But they will only return to the US if the politicians don't resume raising corporate taxes. Simple economics...
Ok, I read the link which states, "Only 49% of Americans owed money on their Federal income tax returns. I can accept that as TRUE. THAT MEANS 51% DID not OWE money to the Fed. government for that particular year. NOW.......The 1040 is an end-of-year RECONCILIATION to determine who owes and how much. Does the taxpayer owe more money OR did they overpay the Fed. government and the government OWES them a REFUND.
........Many, many, many people do not budget well enough to break even with the Fed Government at the end of the year, which would be fiscally ideal, because then the taxpayer gets the time value of money throughout the WHOLE year instead of the Government. Many, many taxpayers HATE to owe money at the end of the year. Because of this desire, they tend to OVERPAY throughout the year. They will do things like ......they may have 4 total exemptions, BUT, they only DECLARE 3......Why because they decide, "better to be safe than sorry" when dealing with the IRS. They do NOT want to pay taxes AND a penalty for the year.

So, since many, many are OVERPAYING to the Fed government throughout the year.....THAT is the reason that 51% of taxpayers do NOT pay ADDITIONAL taxes at the end of year. (refer back to my 2nd sentence) What it DOES NOT mean is that 51% paid ZERO taxes INTO the government on a month-by-month basis.

In general, working people PAY taxes. Exceptions would be like low wages and married with 5 children or more and lots of medical bills or itemizations. Massive US workers on the dole are an urban legend. Now people that can't work through no fault of their own and can only survive by the Federal government paying them in food stamps, public housing and other ways.........are a different story. But, we were talking about WORKING people here.

[jimjamuser]

Per the IRS, you would be wrong. It's nowhere NEAR 80%> It's actually just under the 50% number I stated...

Oh, and the numbers were even higher in 2020 (61%) and in 2021 (57%). But those years were skewed due to Covid shutdowns...

Here is an example from 2009...

Is it true that only 53 percent of Americans pay income tax? | HowStuffWorks (https://money.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm)



Who are these imaginary "GREED" boogeymen you're talking about? Do they have meetings? A secret handshake?

And no, since the 50's subsequent generations did not do worse than their parents. That is a recent development...

No no, EVERYBODY does not know that false statement...



Yes, manufacturing in China started moving back some 5-6 years ago... I wonder what the cause was (your "tongue in cheek" delusions of grandeur not withstanding...).

But they will only return to the US if the politicians don't resume raising corporate taxes. Simple economics...
I am afraid that after 1950 subsequent generations DID do WORSE than the preceding generations. That is when OUTSOURCING to Mexico and our southern states began.

[JMintzer]

OK, I will give an OPINION of mine that is almost entirely mine. Although somewhere in this big, wide, beautiful world someone, somewhere may have expressed a similar OPINION.
.......I believe that Richard Nixon's trip to China to open trading between the two countries - and contrary to popular History and belief - was a COLLASAL mistake. And I have previously posted the DETAILS of WHY I came to that conclusion. So, that is merely MY opinion. And if someone cares to post a counter-argument, I would be VERY interested to read it.

You don't think we were buying crap from China BEFORE Nixon?

Oh, and it wasn't Nixon who did what you said he did. It was Carter & Clinton...

"President Bill Clinton in 2000 pushed Congress to approve the U.S.-China trade agreement and China's accession to the WTO, saying that more trade with China would advance America's economic interests: "Economically, this agreement is the equivalent of a one-way street..."

And, if you want to go back farther, It was Carter who got the ball rolling...

"In 1979 the U.S. and China reestablished diplomatic relations and signed a bilateral trade agreement. This gave a start to a rapid growth of trade between the two nations: from $4 billion (exports and imports) that year to over $600 billion in 2017."

Nixon's main goal in meeting with China was the SALT Agreement...

Facts trump OPINIONS...

[JMintzer]

Ok, I read the link which states, "Only 49% of Americans owed money on their Federal income tax returns. I can accept that as TRUE. THAT MEANS 51% DID not OWE money to the Fed. government for that particular year. NOW.......The 1040 is an end-of-year RECONCILIATION to determine who owes and how much. Does the taxpayer owe more money OR did they overpay the Fed. government and the government OWES them a REFUND.
........Many, many, many people do not budget well enough to break even with the Fed Government at the end of the year, which would be fiscally ideal, because then the taxpayer gets the time value of money throughout the WHOLE year instead of the Government. Many, many taxpayers HATE to owe money at the end of the year. Because of this desire, they tend to OVERPAY throughout the year. They will do things like ......they may have 4 total exemptions, BUT, they only DECLARE 3......Why because they decide, "better to be safe than sorry" when dealing with the IRS. They do NOT want to pay taxes AND a penalty for the year.

So, since many, many are OVERPAYING to the Fed government throughout the year.....THAT is the reason that 51% of taxpayers do NOT pay ADDITIONAL taxes at the end of year. (refer back to my 2nd sentence) What it DOES NOT mean is that 51% paid ZERO taxes INTO the government on a month-by-month basis.

In general, working people PAY taxes. Exceptions would be like low wages and married with 5 children or more and lots of medical bills or itemizations. Massive US workers on the dole are an urban legend. Now people that can't work through no fault of their own and can only survive by the Federal government paying them in food stamps, public housing and other ways.........are a different story. But, we were talking about WORKING people here.

You didn't understand what you read...

[jimjamuser]

Per the IRS, you would be wrong. It's nowhere NEAR 80%> It's actually just under the 50% number I stated...

Oh, and the numbers were even higher in 2020 (61%) and in 2021 (57%). But those years were skewed due to Covid shutdowns...

Here is an example from 2009...

Is it true that only 53 percent of Americans pay income tax? | HowStuffWorks (https://money.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm)



Who are these imaginary "GREED" boogeymen you're talking about? Do they have meetings? A secret handshake?

And no, since the 50's subsequent generations did not do worse than their parents. That is a recent development...

No no, EVERYBODY does not know that false statement...



Yes, manufacturing in China started moving back some 5-6 years ago... I wonder what the cause was (your "tongue in cheek" delusions of grandeur not withstanding...).

But they will only return to the US if the politicians don't resume raising corporate taxes. Simple economics...
"your delusions of grandeur notwithstanding". That is about the 150th insult that you have hurled my way since you moved to The Villages. Are you keeping score? Are you PROUD of yourself? I have not insulted you in over a year. And there were MANY opportunities. I will continue to take the high road and NOT insult you. But, I don't expect to have that courtesy reciprocated any time soon.

[JMintzer]

OK, I read that link. It was a hard read and complicated. And it does make EVERYONE engaged in moving the oil either by pipeline or railcars, including Warren Buffet, seem responsible for serious environmental degradation. Railcars have crashed and pipelines have ruptured creating BIG problems. It seems like a lot of blame to go around, starting with BIG OIL.
....The US has enough oil for its own needs. It looks like the US is jeopardizing its own environment to satisfy the NEEDS of other countries. It makes me think back to some of my "big picture" comments - that the world population of 8 billion people that increased rapidly since 1900 - seems to be the ROOT cause of this crude oil problem and most other PROBLEMS.
.......And that leads to one of the positive aspects of Elon Musk's life, namely manufacturing a well-liked Electric automobile. Which could help with our OIL DEPENDENCY. I will give him credit for that, but NOT for Twitter. I do not know if Warren Buffet has ANY investments in electric vehicles. He probably does invest in electrical power companies. I will have to check that. And possibly natural gas?

Reductio Absurdum argument... You cannot extrapolate a discussion about ONE PERSON to ALL people...

Annnnd... If the US has enough oil for its own needs, why is the current administration begging, hat in hand to VENEZUELA for oil?

[jimjamuser]

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on a few points. In trying not to cross that 'P' line here, my quick response is: 1. Twitter was simply following its own internal rules of not passing on unsubstantiated and unproved, at the time, conspiracies right before an election. 2. Just like this, or any other site, the 1st A has absolutely NOTHING to do with private speech or businesses (other than the yelling fire in a theater/similar utterances). 3. The antisemitic and racist/bigoted comments are continuing at a record rate and are not being shut down or deleted, primarily because those people who previously would see them and stop it - were long ago fired.

So saying that Twitter was "suppressing free speech" is actually quite silly. Particularly given all of the other private sites, businesses and people, that never met a wacko conspiracy or outrageous lie that they didn't love...and publish or pass on. lol
So, TRUE. Again congrats on a drop-the-mike-type post

[jimjamuser]

Evidently Musk has done quite well with Tesla this year.

Tesla reports 1.31 million deliveries in 2022, growth of 40% over last year

Tesla reports 1.31 million deliveries in 2022, growth of 40% over last year (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/tesla-reports-131-million-deliveries-in-2022-growth-of-40-over-last-year/ar-AA15TGEv)

We need to see what Twitter will do. He hasn’t owned it more than a couple months. The overhaul could bring very good results.
And people complain about me when I capitalize some word.

[JMintzer]

I believe that tax LIABILITY is an end-of-year determination. Taxes are taken out by State and Federal governments on a paycheck-by-paycheck basis. So, I am GUESSING that about 80% of all WORKERS pay some taxes. And I am JUST not interested / curious or have sufficient time to look up everything.

No one (but you) is talking about an "end-of-year determination"...

It's about people either not paying ANY FEDERAL INCOME TAX (not FICA or Medicare Taxes), or receiving refunds that far outweigh the little they actually paid.

Changing the subject doesn't change my original point...

[jimjamuser]

You don't think we were buying crap from China BEFORE Nixon?

Oh, and it wasn't Nixon who did what you said he did. It was Carter & Clinton...

"President Bill Clinton in 2000 pushed Congress to approve the U.S.-China trade agreement and China's accession to the WTO, saying that more trade with China would advance America's economic interests: "Economically, this agreement is the equivalent of a one-way street..."

And, if you want to go back farther, It was Carter who got the ball rolling...

"In 1979 the U.S. and China reestablished diplomatic relations and signed a bilateral trade agreement. This gave a start to a rapid growth of trade between the two nations: from $4 billion (exports and imports) that year to over $600 billion in 2017."

Nixon's main goal in meeting with China was the SALT Agreement...

Facts trump OPINIONS...
I will stick with my statement that Nixon opened up relations with China. He was famous for it !!!!!!!

[JMintzer]

I am not critical of Mr. Musk's ACCOMPLISHMENTS, but his CONTOL of Twitter is a "dumpster fire", not an accomplishment.

Yes, stopping Twitter from interfering in our elections is a terrible thing.

Yes, stopping the previous regime from banning people from saying things the Feds didn't want them to say is a terrible thing...

And he has added features to Twitter that have made the user experience much better...

Serious question: Do you actually use Twitter? Not check out an occasional link you see posted elsewhere, but actually use the platform?

Have you actually waded thru the multiple "Tweet Dumps" over the last several weeks?

[jimjamuser]

Reductio Absurdum argument... You cannot extrapolate a discussion about ONE PERSON to ALL people...

Annnnd... If the US has enough oil for its own needs, why is the current administration begging, hat in hand to VENEZUELA for oil?
Because "everybody knows" that the US is sending Oil to Europe because Russian cut them off. And we do NOT want our allies in Europe to freeze to death. So we MAY (?) have needed to replenish our strategic reserve by going into the OPEN market........on a TEMPORARY BASIS.

[jimjamuser]

Yes, stopping Twitter from interfering in our elections is a terrible thing.

Yes, stopping the previous regime from banning people from saying things the Feds didn't want them to say is a terrible thing...

And he has added features to Twitter that have made the user experience much better...

Serious question: Do you actually use Twitter? Not check out an occasional link you see posted elsewhere, but actually use the platform?

Have you actually waded thru the multiple "Tweet Dumps" over the last several weeks?
I believe that those 1st 2 sentences are concepts that have been floated around the conspiracy ecosystem lately.

[JMintzer]

Musk is NOT revealing any big conspiracies, he has simply removed the controls that tried limiting completely false rumors/conspiracies that the old Twitter tried to minimize. Now, the ridiculous lies, crazy conspiracies, antisemitism and pent-up hate by certain demographics - are being allowed to proliferate.

Why and how, would any decent person (especially those claiming to be Christians)...applaud what is currently happening?

Hate Speech’s Rise on Twitter Under Elon Musk Is Unprecedented, Researchers Find - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/technology/twitter-hate-speech.html)


Before Elon Musk bought Twitter, slurs against Black Americans showed up on the social media service an average of 1,282 times a day. After the billionaire became Twitter’s owner, they jumped to 3,876 times a day.

Slurs against gay men appeared on Twitter 2,506 times a day on average before Mr. Musk took over. Afterward, their use rose to 3,964 times a day.

And antisemitic posts referring to Jews or Judaism soared more than 61 percent in the two weeks after Mr. Musk acquired the site.

These findings — from the Center for Countering Digital Hate, the Anti-Defamation League and other groups that study online platforms — provide the most comprehensive picture to date of how conversations on Twitter have changed since Mr. Musk completed his $44 billion deal for the company in late October.

And Twitter's own data shows those things are actually lower than before...

What they are now counting as "hate speech" are Twitter users like "The Libs of TickTock", who simply re-posts what individual themselves have posted.

And Ben Shapiro, who holds the record for being on the receiving end of hate speech on Twitter (pre-Musk), is now seeing less since the takeover...

[Aces4]

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on a few points. In trying not to cross that 'P' line here, my quick response is: 1. Twitter was simply following its own internal rules of not passing on unsubstantiated and unproved, at the time, conspiracies right before an election. 2. Just like this, or any other site, the 1st A has absolutely NOTHING to do with private speech or businesses (other than the yelling fire in a theater/similar utterances). 3. The antisemitic and racist/bigoted comments are continuing at a record rate and are not being shut down or deleted, primarily because those people who previously would see them and stop it - were long ago fired.

So saying that Twitter was "suppressing free speech" is actually quite silly. Particularly given all of the other private sites, businesses and people, that never met a wacko conspiracy or outrageous lie that they didn't love...and publish or pass on. lol


If you believe in your heart what you just posted, I’m done. “Silly” is the premise that the old Twitter is not guilty of collusion to defame and suppress important information. You know, that little ole thing called freedom of speech. I feel like I’m having a battle of the real truth with an unarmed poster.

[JMintzer]

I would have a hard time "mourning" the loss of left-wing censorship ( I assume of Mr. Musk).......because I HAD and still have no clue that there is such a thing going on. I simply believe that many (not all) people of whatever stripe are critical of Mr. Musk because of his actions during his takeover of Twitter. He fired 1/2 of the employees there. Some people have commented that it was a GOOD move on his part. I see it as selfish and cold-hearted. I do have an inclination to side with employees OVER upper management because upper management is often out-of-touch with the key elements that make a business run smoothly. They often have an inclination to be elitist and authoritarian. I do NOT believe in top-down management. I believe in the principles of Circles of Management
which involve even the lowest line worker in the functioning of a business. That is ACTUALLY a good business decision because those businesses tend to be the MOST profitable because the workers can actually FEEL that they are important to the business. Toyota and other Japanese car makers used those principles back in 1970 to overtake and outcompete the established US car manufacturers EVEN here in the US. So I know that it works.

And the point being that at Twitter Elon Musk has broken ALL THE PRINCIPLES of Circles of Management. And he has gotten INCREDIBLY BAD press that he may never recover from. And for what? .......a personal VANITY project.

So, you have NO IDEA what was going on at Twitter and WHY all of those people were fired...

And yes, he has gotten incredibly bad press from the usual sites who were in bed with the previous Twitter regime...

Shall I show you my shocked face?

[JMintzer]

That is a GREAT post and I agree with all of it. I heard a prediction on a TV news program that groups like the Proud boys and the Oath Keepers are ZEROING in on transgender people and are likely to engage in serious violence against that group of Americans. It reminds me of the beginning of Hitler's rise to power that I read about in a book titled. "The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich". The idea being to pick a weak group and flex their muscles against that weak group thereby feeling stronger by tearing at a weak seam in society. History seems to be repeating itself.
......Another discussion on the news channel was that Europe and other countries are looking at the US violence-prone groups with GREAT concern. Europe is a co-dependent with the US as freedom-loving countries. Europe needs a strong US and seems HORRIFIED by what it sees as cracks and weaknesses in US society.
.......For a long time, I have felt that Russian trolls have been successful at exploiting group differences and hatreds which exist in the US. It is hard to quantify the amount of chaos that they have succeeded in creating in the US. Yet, we can quantify the increase in membership among the Proud Boys and ALL the other extremist groups. To me, these groups seem to feel left out of society for various reasons, so they get together and BOND either in person or on media and the HATE flows out of them.
........I also connect their DISPLEASURE to the general loss of economic and even spiritual strength of the US middle class. I am NOT sure that they are completely AWARE of the exact reasons for their despair. But, they know that SOMETHING has let them down and they then are willing to resort mindlessly to consoling themselves with violence. To me, they are only a SYMPTOM of a greater disease.

Russia, Russia, Russia!

And regarding the violence against transgenders... I suggest you do a bit of research as to exactly WHO is committing those atrocities...

I'll give you a tip... It ain't "The Proud Boys" nor "The Oath Keepers"...

[Aces4]

I believe that those 1st 2 sentences are concepts that have been floated around the conspiracy ecosystem lately.

Being blind to injustices seems to be easy for you. Most of us have common sense to see exactly what was perpetrated by the old Twitter and it’s seedy, unlawful interferences.

[JMintzer]

Well, thanks a lot for that observation. I will act on it IMMEDIATELY by going down for a MIND-checkup at my local psychiatry GARAGE and asking for a tune-up.

I'll give you a referral if you'd like... I'm licensed to practice in Florida... :loco::p:D

[JMintzer]

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on a few points. In trying not to cross that 'P' line here, my quick response is: 1. Twitter was simply following its own internal rules of not passing on unsubstantiated and unproved, at the time, conspiracies right before an election. 2. Just like this, or any other site, the 1st A has absolutely NOTHING to do with private speech or businesses (other than the yelling fire in a theater/similar utterances). 3. The antisemitic and racist/bigoted comments are continuing at a record rate and are not being shut down or deleted, primarily because those people who previously would see them and stop it - were long ago fired.

So saying that Twitter was "suppressing free speech" is actually quite silly. Particularly given all of the other private sites, businesses and people, that never met a wacko conspiracy or outrageous lie that they didn't love...and publish or pass on. lol

1. Nope. Twitter's own internal email show they KNEW the info they were blocking was NOT "unsubstantiated" nor "unproven"...

2. Twitter worked with the FBI and the White House to censor content. So yes, it is most certainly a 1A issue...

3. So says the NYTs. The paper who also lied about a certain laptop...

[JMintzer]

Evidently Musk has done quite well with Tesla this year.

Tesla reports 1.31 million deliveries in 2022, growth of 40% over last year

Tesla reports 1.31 million deliveries in 2022, growth of 40% over last year (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/tesla-reports-131-million-deliveries-in-2022-growth-of-40-over-last-year/ar-AA15TGEv)

We need to see what Twitter will do. He hasn’t owned it more than a couple months. The overhaul could bring very good results.

But that's "unpossible"... It's a "dumpster fire"!

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Edward harrison @Business Tesla delivered over 405,000 vehicles in Q4 2022, setting a new company record

"As recently as December 30th, the consensus among most analysts was that Tesla would deliver about 418,000 vehicles in Q4"

They missed their growth forecast, growth decelerating . . . time to sell
How big were the price cuts? impacts revenue and margins, and profits. .

rates of change beats levels all day every day

[JMintzer]

I am afraid that after 1950 subsequent generations DID do WORSE than the preceding generations. That is when OUTSOURCING to Mexico and our southern states began.

Nope, the downturn began with Generation X, which "officially" started in 1965, but, in reality is mostly kids born from1970-1985, and the Millennials, who range from mid 1985-2000...

Like I said, it is a more recent phenomena...

[Aces4]

Edward harrison @Business

They missed their growth forecast, growth decelerating . . . time to sell

rates of change beats levels all day every day

Did you miss where EV stocks are down, it’s not just Tesla. Oh, and there a few other stocks that have dropped recently.

[JMintzer]

Because "everybody knows" that the US is sending Oil to Europe because Russian cut them off. And we do NOT want our allies in Europe to freeze to death. So we MAY (?) have needed to replenish our strategic reserve by going into the OPEN market........on a TEMPORARY BASIS.

We should never had depleted the Strategic Reserve in the first place!!!

And since the reserves are at their lowest levels since 1980, yes, they MAY need to replenish them...

A former POTUS wanted to replenish the reserves when oil was just $24/barrel... And it was depleted by the administration before his... Unfortunately, he was blocked by Congress...

Now, they are hoping it drops to $80/barrel, so they can start replenishing it again...

Paying over 3Xs as much? Not a very sound financial decision, if you ask me...

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ij1GvJMfnOhs/v0/-1x-1.png

[JMintzer]

I believe that those 1st 2 sentences are concepts that have been floated around the conspiracy ecosystem lately.

I believe you are quite mistaken. All you need do is read Twitter's internal emails that have been released and not rely on the usual suspect news outlets...