A better lithium battery

[blueash]

Possibly big news in Science magazine (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq1347) where only the abstract is free to view. It reports a new design using a new matrix and air with lithium to produce a lighter battery with a higher energy density. See also HERE (https://techxplore.com/news/2023-02-chemistry-ultra-high-power-density-batteries.html)

I need some help from the P Chem people on this website, but there is a laymen's discussion of this advance at THIS WEBSITE (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/2/4/2150996/-Practical-lithium-air-battery-shows-3x-the-energy-density-of-today-s-best-electric-vehicle-batteries?utm_campaign=trending) which includes a lot of links.

The upshot seems to be that if this works we will have a battery that far exceeds what we have now

[Aces4]

Possibly big news in Science magazine (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq1347) where only the abstract is free to view. It reports a new design using a new matrix and air with lithium to produce a lighter battery with a higher energy density. See also HERE (https://techxplore.com/news/2023-02-chemistry-ultra-high-power-density-batteries.html)

I need some help from the P Chem people on this website, but there is a laymen's discussion of this advance at THIS WEBSITE (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/2/4/2150996/-Practical-lithium-air-battery-shows-3x-the-energy-density-of-today-s-best-electric-vehicle-batteries?utm_campaign=trending) which includes a lot of links.

The upshot seems to be that if this works we will have a battery that far exceeds what we have now

And now can we toss them in the landfills?

[Michael G.]

We certainly need better battery's, they are the life blood of all those $90,000 and $100,000 + vehicles.
The vehicles would be junk without a good lifetime battery.

So until then, I'll never let myself get suck-in the electric vehicle world.

[Aces4]

We certainly need better battery's, they are the life blood of all those $90,000 and $100,000 + vehicles.
The vehicles would be junk without a good lifetime battery.

So until then, I'll never let myself get suck-in the electric vehicle world.

And the new, fandangled batteries will cost as much as the cars.

[blueash]

And the new, fandangled batteries will cost as much as the cars.

And if you would read the links you would learn, God forbid, that these batteries are using less expensive materials than the lithium ion batteries now use. But you'd rather snipe than learn maybe??

[blueash]

And now can we toss them in the landfills?

If you are opposed to all lithium batteries I hope you will come back and tell me what kind of battery you have in your cell phone and your laptop? Or you might support recycling of lithium which is being done and improving both in efficiency and availability.

[Byte1]

If you are opposed to all lithium batteries I hope you will come back and tell me what kind of battery you have in your cell phone and your laptop? Or you might support recycling of lithium which is being done and improving both in efficiency and availability.

I have heard many times how lithium batteries are being recycled. Can you give me an example of them REALLY being recycled? I have heard that some companies CLAIM to be, or are going to recycle, but none of them seem to as of this time. Just wondering, not denying. Not that I am really concerned about the batteries being recycled. Personally, I am hoping that they come up with a newer idea than lithium, such as the experimental nuclear charged crystals that are supposed to be able to get a million miles lifespan and 900 miles to a charge. Lithium is volatile if introduced to water or overheated while being charged or strained in use. After being invented 200 years ago, I am glad that battery powered automobiles are almost ready for prime time. :BigApplause:

[Battlebasset]

And if you would read the links you would learn, God forbid, that these batteries are using less expensive materials than the lithium ion batteries now use. But you'd rather snipe than learn maybe??

Highly recommend you read "Red Cobalt" and tell me with a clean conscious that we should convert our perfectly workable ICE vehicle infrastructure to LI batteries. From the WSJ review:

"The reader senses that the author has been left shell-shocked, not from the aesthetic carnage but from seeing thousands of people mining by hand, hammer and shovel in vast open pits hundreds of feet deep, most of the pits arrayed with hand-dug tunnels. Mr. Kara reports visiting a typical mine where “more than three thousand women, children, and men shoveled, scraped, and scrounged . . . under a ferocious sun and a haze of dust.” The book has no photographs, an understandable absence given the risks of using a camera with armed guards everywhere. Instead Mr. Kara captures the impact of artisanal mining through the powerful stories of the miners—men, women and children—that he has gleaned through interviews. It’s often hard to read his descriptions of the miners’ daily lives, the risks, accidents, promises unfulfilled and, too often, heart-wrenching tales of maimed or dead children.

This is in the Congo, BTW. There's your clean energy. And before you say it, if we were just powering phones and tools with LI, there would be no need for the massive mining needed to support EV in all passenger cars.

[blueash]

Highly recommend you read "Red Cobalt" and tell me with a clean conscious that we should convert our perfectly workable ICE vehicle infrastructure to LI batteries. From the WSJ review:

"The reader senses that the author has been left shell-shocked, not from the aesthetic carnage but from seeing thousands of people mining by hand, hammer and shovel in vast open pits hundreds of feet deep, most of the pits arrayed with hand-dug tunnels. Mr. Kara reports visiting a typical mine where “more than three thousand women, children, and men shoveled, scraped, and scrounged . . . under a ferocious sun and a haze of dust.” The book has no photographs, an understandable absence given the risks of using a camera with armed guards everywhere. Instead Mr. Kara captures the impact of artisanal mining through the powerful stories of the miners—men, women and children—that he has gleaned through interviews. It’s often hard to read his descriptions of the miners’ daily lives, the risks, accidents, promises unfulfilled and, too often, heart-wrenching tales of maimed or dead children.

This is in the Congo, BTW. There's your clean energy.

I completely agree with you that lithium mining is fraught with inhumane conditions and needs reformation. Hopefully enough light gets shown on this abuse that international pressure pushes reforms in those countries and those corporations that allow it to continue.

Similar conditions existed in coal mining here and elsewhere for generations, and still exist in clothing manufacturing, other mining, and very likely in the production of the cell phone I use. Sadly we as consumers are certainly complicit in our inadvertent or even advertent worker and environmental abuses. And worker abuses do not only occur in the third world, only differing in the severity and breadth of those abuses. The horror stories from Qatar building the World Cup facilities is a good example of how this goes on even in a rich country.

[Aces4]

If you are opposed to all lithium batteries I hope you will come back and tell me what kind of battery you have in your cell phone and your laptop? Or you might support recycling of lithium which is being done and improving both in efficiency and availability.

Huh, I read through my posts and didn’t find where I said I was against ALL lithium batteries. Just against the billions and trillions of vehicle batteries that will be required to run this boondoggle.

Even though it may cost less to produce, this, ahem… “premium battery” will be far more costly because you have to feed all the greedy shareholders sitting at the end of the product profit margin to say nothing about disposal and replacements.

[blueash]

I have heard many times how lithium batteries are being recycled. Can you give me an example of them REALLY being recycled? I have heard that some companies CLAIM to be, or are going to recycle, but none of them seem to as of this time. Just wondering, not denying. Not that I am really concerned about the batteries being recycled. Personally, I am hoping that they come up with a newer idea than lithium, such as the experimental nuclear charged crystals that are supposed to be able to get a million miles lifespan and 900 miles to a charge. Lithium is volatile if introduced to water or overheated while being charged or strained in use. After being invented 200 years ago, I am glad that battery powered automobiles are almost ready for prime time. :BigApplause:

Here is one company (https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recycle-with-us/) that is already in business. They are accepting Lithium ion batteries. I cannot tell if they are stockpiling or actually doing the recycling which is a very fair question. But either way it will get recycled.
Tesla's website says " None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled." but does not indicate what company is doing the work or if they are reclaiming the raw materials now, or planning once facilities are built to then begin reclamation.
I am very concerned with batteries being recycled as I care about our planet. I just took a bunch of old Lithium ion batteries to our local toxic waste event for recycling.

[Aces4]

Here is one company (https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recycle-with-us/) that is already in business. They are accepting Lithium ion batteries. I cannot tell if they are stockpiling or actually doing the recycling which is a very fair question. But either way it will get recycled.
Tesla's website says " None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled." but does not indicate what company is doing the work or if they are reclaiming the raw materials now, or planning once facilities are built to then begin reclamation.
I am very concerned with batteries being recycled as I care about our planet. I just took a bunch of old Lithium ion batteries to our local toxic waste event for recycling.

You are correct in being concerned. Less than 1% of lithium-ion batteries are currently being recycled in Europe and America. Lead-acid batteries have 99% recycling.

[Arctic Fox]

And if you would read the links you would learn, God forbid, that these batteries are using less expensive materials than the lithium ion batteries now use. But you'd rather snipe than learn maybe??

There have always been Luddites, blueash, and TOTV seems to have more than its fair share.

Keep posting good articles and you may win a few over, but most will continue to stick their heads in the sand and nay-say everything new with "evidence" they have been using since the 1990's.

[Aces4]

There have always been Luddites, blueash, and TOTV seems to have more than its fair share.

Keep posting good articles and you may win a few over, but most will continue to stick their heads in the sand and nay-say everything new with "evidence" they have been using since the 1990's.

And then we have our share of those hugging lithium batteries not knowing the long term, harmful damage the world will incur. But they’ve made up their mind without the facts. Ostriches…

[tuccillo]

Since the real issue is being able to manufacture at scale, lithium-ion batteries will be the norm for the foreseeable future. Infrastructure to recycle will develop with time. Whether you want to believe it or not, electric vehicles are a disruptive technology that will gain acceptance on the "S" curve that most new technologies have followed. Ready for prime time? I think we are past that.

I have heard many times how lithium batteries are being recycled. Can you give me an example of them REALLY being recycled? I have heard that some companies CLAIM to be, or are going to recycle, but none of them seem to as of this time. Just wondering, not denying. Not that I am really concerned about the batteries being recycled. Personally, I am hoping that they come up with a newer idea than lithium, such as the experimental nuclear charged crystals that are supposed to be able to get a million miles lifespan and 900 miles to a charge. Lithium is volatile if introduced to water or overheated while being charged or strained in use. After being invented 200 years ago, I am glad that battery powered automobiles are almost ready for prime time. :BigApplause:

[Michael G.]

Whether you want to believe it or not, electric vehicles are a disruptive technology that will gain acceptance on the "S" curve that most new technologies have followed. Ready for prime time? I think we are past that.

In the meantime, we're all a bunch of sheep following technology we and our government know little about its future, just take your $80-$90,000 to your friendly car dealership and go with the flow.

[tuccillo]

You can certainly spend $80-$90K on an EV, just as you can on a gas vehicle, but you don't need to. There are many EVs available for much less. For example, the Tesla Model Y SUV is available for $55K minus the $7500 incentive from the IRS. The average new car price, by the way, is $50K.

In the meantime, we're all a bunch of sheep following technology we and our government know little about its future, just take your $80-$90,000 to your friendly car dealership and go with the flow.

[ithos]

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

Regardless, the mandate to eliminate ICE will have devastating consequences for out economy, safety and standard of living.

If the true intent was only to reduce fossil fuel demand then the government overlords would have required a shift to hybrids and fuel cells. That would be logical.

But we all know what the real motives are.

[Battlebasset]

I completely agree with you that lithium mining is fraught with inhumane conditions and needs reformation. Hopefully enough light gets shown on this abuse that international pressure pushes reforms in those countries and those corporations that allow it to continue.

Similar conditions existed in coal mining here and elsewhere for generations, and still exist in clothing manufacturing, other mining, and very likely in the production of the cell phone I use. Sadly we as consumers are certainly complicit in our inadvertent or even advertent worker and environmental abuses. And worker abuses do not only occur in the third world, only differing in the severity and breadth of those abuses. The horror stories from Qatar building the World Cup facilities is a good example of how this goes on even in a rich country.

But keep doing it for now to save the planet? Based on who runs those operations (local warlords doing the bidding of the CCP) is there any reasonable hope for reform? I would argue a strong "no" as long as the elite attending Davos get their precious "climate change" agenda to move forward.

EV - A solution in search of a problem that creates problems of its own. In this case, maimed and dead children.

[tuccillo]

Fuel cells are problematic because of the low overall efficiency of generating hydrogen, the difficulty of storing hydrogen, and the lack of infrastructure to deliver hydrogen. While we may see some growth in the use of fuel cells for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to a common location, large scale use for personal travel is a tough sell.

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

Regardless, the mandate to eliminate ICE will have devastating consequences for out economy, safety and standard of living.

If the true intent was only to reduce fossil fuel demand then the government overlords would have required a shift to hybrids and fuel cells. That would be logical.

But we all know what the real motives are.

[rsmurano]

We are nowhere close to prime time for EV’s. There are so many issues with EV’s that will take decades to fix. Here are a few:
I have a relative in the northwest and he says a lot of the charging stations are damaged and the online mapping of these don’t indicate this,
Even the weather channel during the evacuation of the residents for Ian were telling people not to us an EV to leave in,
Not enough charging stations, too long to charge, long wait times at charging stations, range is too small, local mechanics can’t work on them, and the cost is too much. When the charging stations availability equals that of gas stations, when it takes the same amount of time to charge your car as it does to fill it up with gas, car prices are equal, and most mechanics can work on them, then I’ll be interested

[tuccillo]

Do you realize that the transition will probably take 20 years? During this time, all aspects till ramp up. Will you even be alive in 20 years? Your choices, if you are interested in purchasing a new vehicle, will be severely limited by 2035.

We are nowhere close to prime time for EV’s. There are so many issues with EV’s that will take decades to fix. Here are a few:
I have a relative in the northwest and he says a lot of the charging stations are damaged and the online mapping of these don’t indicate this,
Even the weather channel during the evacuation of the residents for Ian were telling people not to us an EV to leave in,
Not enough charging stations, too long to charge, long wait times at charging stations, range is too small, local mechanics can’t work on them, and the cost is too much. When the charging stations availability equals that of gas stations, when it takes the same amount of time to charge your car as it does to fill it up with gas, car prices are equal, and most mechanics can work on them, then I’ll be interested

[OhioBuckeye]

Bingo, me niether! These people that buy these 80, 90, $100,000. EV’s are so fascinated with these EV’s until they have buy one of these 1,000 lb. batteries, then have to get a loan to buy one , oh yea don’t forget paying disposal fees. Time will tell!

[blueash]

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

.

I take it that you actually read the link to the news of a potentially better lithium battery, unlike some who just want to only whine about the elites, whoever they are.

Your question is why I asked if there are any P Chem people reading who could give more enlightened answers. It seems that if a battery of similar size and weight can hold a much greater deliverable amount of energy that your range is extended. But perhaps I don't fully grasp the physics. I don't see anything telling me whether that greater capacity would mean longer charge times.
The image in the original post suggests to me, and I may be entirely wrong in my interpretation, that a pound of lithium battery vs a pound of gasoline will provide the same amount of power to the car. [one gallon of gasoline weighs about six pounds]

[Blackbird45]

Like everything else this will find its path and a couple of years from now there will be a new topic where people will be telling you the sky is falling.

I'm not saying this is the solution, but there are startup companies that are recycling batteries.

There is also a car company where you buy the car and lease the battery.

Everyone is aware of the problems, and they will find a way to address them.

If for nothing else but to make a profit.

[ithos]

Fuel cells are problematic because of the low overall efficiency of generating hydrogen, the difficulty of storing hydrogen, and the lack of infrastructure to deliver hydrogen. While we may see some growth in the use of fuel cells for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to a common location, large scale use for personal travel is a tough sell.

You are right about the present day limitations.

Amazon strikes green hydrogen deal with fuel cell maker Plug Power
Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/25/amazon-strikes-green-hydrogen-deal-with-fuel-cell-maker-plug-power.html)

Walmart to expand hydrogen fuel cell delivery vehicle pilot
Walmart to expand hydrogen fuel cell delivery vehicle pilot - H2 News (https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-walmart/8553020/)

But it could be the the answer to the "storage" challenge for solar and wind. Batteries will never have the capacity or be environmentally acceptable.

Research Fellow at the ANU College of Engineering & Computer Science, Astha Sharma's PhD research set a world record for solar-to-hydrogen generation by coupling high efficiency perovskite-silicon tandem solar cells and low-cost catalysts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUe2fHEEUWk

[Vermilion Villager]

From Tesla:
An average electric vehicle (EV) will need a replacement battery when it has lost 20% of its range. Most users have reported Tesla battery loss at only 5% after 100,000 miles.
Tesla batteries last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The average person drives 273 miles a week, so you can expect your Tesla battery to last anywhere from 21 to 35 years, depending on your driving habits.


Point being, Tesla batteries will rarely (if ever) need to be replaced. You’ll probably need to replace your car before you need to replace the battery.:welcome:

[ithos]

From Tesla:
An average electric vehicle (EV) will need a replacement battery when it has lost 20% of its range. Most users have reported Tesla battery loss at only 5% after 100,000 miles.
Tesla batteries last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The average person drives 273 miles a week, so you can expect your Tesla battery to last anywhere from 21 to 35 years, depending on your driving habits.


Point being, Tesla batteries will rarely (if ever) need to be replaced. You’ll probably need to replace your car before you need to replace the battery.:welcome:

Thank you for the tip. Electric cars are good options for many folks and have several advantages. But I was referring to large scale battery storage for a renewable energy grid which would be orders of magnitude greater.

Regarding EV battery disposal, there still is no long term viable solution. They are trying but I am very skeptical that a practical solution will be found. But hey, future generations will already hate us for the massive debt we are leaving behind, so might as well leave them a catastrophic environmental mess as well.

The battery pack of a Tesla Model S is a feat of intricate engineering. Thousands of cylindrical cells with components sourced from around the world transform lithium and electrons into enough energy to propel the car hundreds of kilometers, again and again, without tailpipe emissions. But when the battery comes to the end of its life, its green benefits fade. If it ends up in a landfill, its cells can release problematic toxins, including heavy metals. And recycling the battery can be a hazardous business, warns materials scientist Dana Thompson of the University of Leicester. Cut too deep into a Tesla cell, or in the wrong place, and it can short-circuit, combust, and release toxic fumes.

That's just one of the many problems confronting researchers, including Thompson, who are trying to tackle an emerging problem: how to recycle the millions of electric vehicle (EV) batteries that manufacturers expect to produce over the next few decades. Current EV batteries "are really not designed to be recycled," says Thompson, .

Science | AAAS (https://www.science.org/content/article/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries)

[jimjamuser]

Possibly big news in Science magazine (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq1347) where only the abstract is free to view. It reports a new design using a new matrix and air with lithium to produce a lighter battery with a higher energy density. See also HERE (https://techxplore.com/news/2023-02-chemistry-ultra-high-power-density-batteries.html)

I need some help from the P Chem people on this website, but there is a laymen's discussion of this advance at THIS WEBSITE (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/2/4/2150996/-Practical-lithium-air-battery-shows-3x-the-energy-density-of-today-s-best-electric-vehicle-batteries?utm_campaign=trending) which includes a lot of links.

The upshot seems to be that if this works we will have a battery that far exceeds what we have now
As I mentioned several times before, battery technology (and electrical power generation centers) are NOT going to stop improving. We are like in the time period as far as E-vehicles go....... compared to about what 1900 WAS for ICE vehicles. Ice vehicles KEPT improving AND so will E-vehicles.
.......The US is EVEN paying people to participate in the future switch-over. It's ALL good !

[jimjamuser]

We certainly need better battery's, they are the life blood of all those $90,000 and $100,000 + vehicles.
The vehicles would be junk without a good lifetime battery.

So until then, I'll never let myself get suck-in the electric vehicle world.
That's what my father said about those strange things called Television antennas that were MAGICALLY appearing on ALL our neighbor's rooftops. He said that they would NEVER replace the RADIO.

[jimjamuser]

And if you would read the links you would learn, God forbid, that these batteries are using less expensive materials than the lithium ion batteries now use. But you'd rather snipe than learn maybe??
Learning requires TOO much energy as opposed to sniping (at an advancing age).

[JMintzer]

As I mentioned several times before, battery technology (and electrical power generation centers) are NOT going to stop improving. We are like in the time period as far as E-vehicles go....... compared to about what 1900 WAS for ICE vehicles. Ice vehicles KEPT improving AND so will E-vehicles.
.......The US is EVEN paying people to participate in the future switch-over. It's ALL good !

What EV do you drive? Do you walk the walk?

[Blackbird45]

This just came onto internet today.
Things are improving.
Link below:

What Are Solid-State Batteries And Why Are They The Future? (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/what-are-solid-state-batteries-and-why-are-they-the-future/ar-AA179WLi?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=e19c3c5ca785471cae06e3f07b751776)

[jimjamuser]

I completely agree with you that lithium mining is fraught with inhumane conditions and needs reformation. Hopefully enough light gets shown on this abuse that international pressure pushes reforms in those countries and those corporations that allow it to continue.

Similar conditions existed in coal mining here and elsewhere for generations, and still exist in clothing manufacturing, other mining, and very likely in the production of the cell phone I use. Sadly we as consumers are certainly complicit in our inadvertent or even advertent worker and environmental abuses. And worker abuses do not only occur in the third world, only differing in the severity and breadth of those abuses. The horror stories from Qatar building the World Cup facilities is a good example of how this goes on even in a rich country.
I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere (?) that there are some Lithium deposits located in Alaska. If so, it could be mined using modern US mining technology and mining equipment - instead of "slave labor". As far as US citizens trying to save the world and eliminating harmful child labor practices in foreign countries - I believe that we need to stop buying Apple stock and Apple products and Teslas made and sold in China. I remember distinctly that Chinese workers had such bad lives that they were jumping to their deaths from the roofs of Chinese manufacturing facilities.
.....Personally, if I never bought a Chinese product again, I would be a happy camper. And I would be willing to pay much more to buy US products. And we would NOT HAVE the EXTRA POLLUTION of the ocean ships from China.
.........America became wealthy historically with slavery and cotton production and then by the industrial revolution because we have the MOST navigable rivers in the 1st world and electrical production from waterfalls.
..........We could return to complete TOP RANKING American innovation and have both the world's best software companies AND the best AUTOMATED factories with the best A.I.
...........We don't really NEED China and their STEALING our technology. We have created our own BEST enemy.
........We are in a position to be the greatest innovator of ANY new technology like innovative new batteries for non-polluting E-vehicles. Like new-generation, cutting-edge, and safe Nuclear power generation. I hear too many people say that the US can't do THIS or can't do THAT and , "we don't want to change and please don't make us or we will "hold our breath". It is like we create our own speed bumps.
......Years ago the US beat the Russians to the MOON......HOW, by everybody working together. Today it is "EVERYBODY pull apart". This business about new technology for E-vehicles is just a perfect example of the non-acceptance of new ideas and the speed bumps and NAYSAYING. US attitudes changed in about the 1980s with outsourcing and business schools acquiring the "best and brightest" students instead of the students going into the Scientific and Engineering fields.

[jimjamuser]

Here is one company (https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recycle-with-us/) that is already in business. They are accepting Lithium ion batteries. I cannot tell if they are stockpiling or actually doing the recycling which is a very fair question. But either way it will get recycled.
Tesla's website says " None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled." but does not indicate what company is doing the work or if they are reclaiming the raw materials now, or planning once facilities are built to then begin reclamation.
I am very concerned with batteries being recycled as I care about our planet. I just took a bunch of old Lithium ion batteries to our local toxic waste event for recycling.
Good for you. That's taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

[JMintzer]

I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere (?) that there are some Lithium deposits located in Alaska. If so, it could be mined using modern US mining technology and mining equipment - instead of "slave labor". As far as US citizens trying to save the world and eliminating harmful child labor practices in foreign countries - I believe that we need to stop buying Apple stock and Apple products and Teslas made and sold in China. I remember distinctly that Chinese workers had such bad lives that they were jumping to their deaths from the roofs of Chinese manufacturing facilities.
.....Personally, if I never bought a Chinese product again, I would be a happy camper. And I would be willing to pay much more to buy US products. And we would NOT HAVE the EXTRA POLLUTION of the ocean ships from China.
.........America became wealthy historically with slavery and cotton production and then by the industrial revolution because we have the MOST navigable rivers in the 1st world and electrical production from waterfalls.
..........We could return to complete TOP RANKING American innovation and have both the world's best software companies AND the best AUTOMATED factories with the best A.I.
...........We don't really NEED China and their STEALING our technology. We have created our own BEST enemy.
........We are in a position to be the greatest innovator of ANY new technology like innovative new batteries for non-polluting E-vehicles. Like new-generation, cutting-edge, and safe Nuclear power generation. I hear too many people say that the US can't do THIS or can't do THAT and , "we don't want to change and please don't make us or we will "hold our breath". It is like we create our own speed bumps.
......Years ago the US beat the Russians to the MOON......HOW, by everybody working together. Today it is "EVERYBODY pull apart". This business about new technology for E-vehicles is just a perfect example of the non-acceptance of new ideas and the speed bumps and NAYSAYING. US attitudes changed in about the 1980s with outsourcing and business schools acquiring the "best and brightest" students instead of the students going into the Scientific and Engineering fields.

Oh... Where to start...

We can't drill in Alaska (for environmental reasons), but mining Lithium is just fine? (ever seen a lithium mine?)

We need to stop buying Apple stock/products? Why? Do you really think that ONLY Apple has their computers made in China?

Do you buy Nike products (I know you think running is better exercise). Have you heard about THEIR practices in China?

Stop buying Teslas made and sold in China? Er... Is ANYONE in the US buying Teslas "made and sold in China"? Let me answer that NO! The only Teslas sold in the US are manufactured in CA and TX...

Unfortunately, the US can't get out of it's own way with regards to innovation. That is why we're not building the new Nuclear plants needed to supply the electricity for your beloved EVs.

Too many rules, regulations, red tape, lobbyists etc, etc, etc...

[jimjamuser]

There have always been Luddites, blueash, and TOTV seems to have more than its fair share.

Keep posting good articles and you may win a few over, but most will continue to stick their heads in the sand and nay-say everything new with "evidence" they have been using since the 1990's.
Well written !!!!!

[jimjamuser]

You can certainly spend $80-$90K on an EV, just as you can on a gas vehicle, but you don't need to. There are many EVs available for much less. For example, the Tesla Model Y SUV is available for $55K minus the $7500 incentive from the IRS. The average new car price, by the way, is $50K.
I have to agree with that post.

[jimjamuser]

It seems the new technology will increase density but efficiency looks like it will be similar. So no real effect on the grid requirements. So longer ranges on a charge but same amount of kw per mile. Please correct me if this is not accurate.

Regardless, the mandate to eliminate ICE will have devastating consequences for out economy, safety and standard of living.

If the true intent was only to reduce fossil fuel demand then the government overlords would have required a shift to hybrids and fuel cells. That would be logical.

But we all know what the real motives are.
Nobody IS "mandating" people switch over from ICE vehicles to E-vehicles. California is creating a "carrot, not a stick" about legislation for about 2035. They will NOT stop (or imprison) anyone (or any Luddite) that PREFERS to keep buying used cars or driving 1965 VW Bettles even. We will ALL BE long DEAD and people in Fl. will STILL be driving ICE vehicles. But, at least, there will be maybe 20% to 40% fewer of them and hopefully better and less polluting Electrical generating power plants like new generation Nuclear types.

[Caymus]

You can certainly spend $80-$90K on an EV, just as you can on a gas vehicle, but you don't need to. There are many EVs available for much less. For example, the Tesla Model Y SUV is available for $55K minus the $7500 incentive from the IRS. The average new car price, by the way, is $50K.

I like spending other people's money.

[jimjamuser]

Fuel cells are problematic because of the low overall efficiency of generating hydrogen, the difficulty of storing hydrogen, and the lack of infrastructure to deliver hydrogen. While we may see some growth in the use of fuel cells for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to a common location, large scale use for personal travel is a tough sell.
Another seldom mentioned advantage of E-vehicle is that they will need MUCH less maintenance compared to ICE vehicles. A person's electrical battery drill and electrical washing motor spin in a circle as opposed to PISTONS flailing up one way and then reversing and flailing in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION. It is just intuitively LOGICAL as to which one is going to be MORE RELIABLE. And E-vehicle has a lower center of gravity, which has INCREDIBLE advantages and also battery power vehicles have MUCH GREATER torque. A 50K Tesla can beat a 100K Corvette from zero to at least 50 MPH, maybe higher. Which is most US city speed limits. So basically, if you want to kick Butt from a stop light, get an E-vehicle.

[jimjamuser]

We are nowhere close to prime time for EV’s. There are so many issues with EV’s that will take decades to fix. Here are a few:
I have a relative in the northwest and he says a lot of the charging stations are damaged and the online mapping of these don’t indicate this,
Even the weather channel during the evacuation of the residents for Ian were telling people not to us an EV to leave in,
Not enough charging stations, too long to charge, long wait times at charging stations, range is too small, local mechanics can’t work on them, and the cost is too much. When the charging stations availability equals that of gas stations, when it takes the same amount of time to charge your car as it does to fill it up with gas, car prices are equal, and most mechanics can work on them, then I’ll be interested
Well today, the prices ARE equal. And since E-vehicles are POTENTIALLY MUCH MORE RELIABLE, then maintenance will be needed less often and YOUNG mechanics (that are NOT AFRAID of change) will quickly become comfortable repairing them. Body people will NOT have to change much, if any.

[jimjamuser]

I take it that you actually read the link to the news of a potentially better lithium battery, unlike some who just want to only whine about the elites, whoever they are.

Your question is why I asked if there are any P Chem people reading who could give more enlightened answers. It seems that if a battery of similar size and weight can hold a much greater deliverable amount of energy that your range is extended. But perhaps I don't fully grasp the physics. I don't see anything telling me whether that greater capacity would mean longer charge times.
The image in the original post suggests to me, and I may be entirely wrong in my interpretation, that a pound of lithium battery vs a pound of gasoline will provide the same amount of power to the car. [one gallon of gasoline weighs about six pounds]
Right now today with current technology most E-vehicles HAVE RANGE ANXIETY only in the minds of the uninformed. Especially for older people the range is greater than their capacity to drive without stopping overnight. Then they can simply charge up at a motel. Even during Hurricane IAN, many people had to wait in line to get GAS. And I remember the 1974 gas shortages. I rode my bicycle to work a lot. It would have been better in 1974 to have an E-vehicle and a solar cell generator.
...... This RANGE ANXIETY business is sort of a "straw man" argument that lacks logic!

[jimjamuser]

From Tesla:
An average electric vehicle (EV) will need a replacement battery when it has lost 20% of its range. Most users have reported Tesla battery loss at only 5% after 100,000 miles.
Tesla batteries last between 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The average person drives 273 miles a week, so you can expect your Tesla battery to last anywhere from 21 to 35 years, depending on your driving habits.


Point being, Tesla batteries will rarely (if ever) need to be replaced. You’ll probably need to replace your car before you need to replace the battery.:welcome:
People in the Villages will have to be on their 2nd REINCARNATION before they will need a new battery.

[Villages Kahuna]

Thanks for the interesting article. But don't get upset by some of the responses you get here. There are quite a number of people here who post just to see their screen name in print. They think their replies are cuttingly smart, when thoughtful people recognize them as stupid and dumb.

[JMintzer]

Right now today with current technology most E-vehicles HAVE RANGE ANXIETY only in the minds of the uninformed. Especially for older people the range is greater than their capacity to drive without stopping overnight. Then they can simply charge up at a motel. Even during Hurricane IAN, many people had to wait in line to get GAS. And I remember the 1974 gas shortages. I rode my bicycle to work a lot. It would have been better in 1974 to have an E-vehicle and a solar cell generator.
...... This RANGE ANXIETY business is sort of a "straw man" argument that lacks logic!

"Simply charge up at a motel"?

You must not get out much...

Where are these mythical motels with all of these charging stations?

[JMintzer]

Nobody IS "mandating" people switch over from ICE vehicles to E-vehicles. California is creating a "carrot, not a stick" about legislation for about 2035. They will NOT stop (or imprison) anyone (or any Luddite) that PREFERS to keep buying used cars or driving 1965 VW Bettles even. We will ALL BE long DEAD and people in Fl. will STILL be driving ICE vehicles. But, at least, there will be maybe 20% to 40% fewer of them and hopefully better and less polluting Electrical generating power plants like new generation Nuclear types.

No, CA is MANDATING that NO NEW ICE vehicles be allowed to be sold in the state...

"In August 2022, California Governor Gavin Newsom approved a rule that all new cars sold in the state by 2035 would need to have zero emissions, i.e. be completely electric..."

That's not a carrot... That's a club...

[tuccillo]

Internal combustion engines are extremely reliable. Gasoline engines in cars can easily go 300K miles if maintained. Diesel engines in container ships can go 100K hours between overhauls. Using terms like "flailing" exposes your ignorance and prejudice. Diesel engines (which have pistons) will not be replaced anytime soon in many areas of transportation, such as container ships. EVs will have a roll in the areas where they make the most sense; personal transportation. I can only speak for me but out accelerating someone at a stop light is not something I ever care to do. Very childish.

Another seldom mentioned advantage of E-vehicle is that they will need MUCH less maintenance compared to ICE vehicles. A person's electrical battery drill and electrical washing motor spin in a circle as opposed to PISTONS flailing up one way and then reversing and flailing in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION. It is just intuitively LOGICAL as to which one is going to be MORE RELIABLE. And E-vehicle has a lower center of gravity, which has INCREDIBLE advantages and also battery power vehicles have MUCH GREATER torque. A 50K Tesla can beat a 100K Corvette from zero to at least 50 MPH, maybe higher. Which is most US city speed limits. So basically, if you want to kick Butt from a stop light, get an E-vehicle.

[MorTech]

Ummm, mining is done with huge machines that run on hydrocarbons...not with little black children with shovels. This is not 1923. Why do you even bother with the lying corporate press? You can't figure out that they are screwing with you?

"The purpose of the mass media and popular culture is to make you stupid, afraid and angry" - Operation Mockingbird.

Lithium battery technology is only being improved on the margins mostly with better manufacturing technology. The volumetric and gravimetric energy density is about maxed out for safety, durability and reliability. Tesla took 9 years to develop a next-gen battery and only managed a bigger cell that is tabless. That should tell you something.

You recycle the battery pack just like anything else...You freeze it with liquid nitrogen and then pulverize it.

[Byte1]

I'm not going to worry about owning an EV because by the time they are ready for prime time and can REALLY compete with ICE vehicles, I will be ashes. I am not about to take a long trip and make it longer by sitting at a charging station for 20 mins. at a time while my ICE can be filled and back on the road in 5 mins. And it is only 20 mins if you don't have to stand in line behind vehicles taking their 20mins. If I want to travel slower, I can get a horse and buggy and really conserve on fuel. There's plenty of grass on the side of the road.

[Aces4]

I'm not going to worry about owning an EV because by the time they are ready for prime time and can REALLY compete with ICE vehicles, I will be ashes. I am not about to take a long trip and make it longer by sitting at a charging station for 20 mins. at a time while my ICE can be filled and back on the road in 5 mins. And it is only 20 mins if you don't have to stand in line behind vehicles taking their 20mins. If I want to travel slower, I can get a horse and buggy and really conserve on fuel. There's plenty of grass on the side of the road.

Sorry, Byte, no horses. Remember, there is the wicked methane gas. :a20:

[ithos]

I went on the Wikipedia page and read this:

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. (Learn how and when to remove these template messages)
This article includes a list of general references, but it lacks sufficient corresponding inline citations. (October 2016)
This article needs additional citations for verification. (October 2016)

I did further google searches and there many upbeat articles but did not the get the impression that any viable battery will be on the market anytime soon. And they have been working on it since the 70's. But if you have Stanford and MIT working on it I suspect eventually they will get something to to market.

I was hoping to find out more information regarding toxicity and recycling but had no luck. Energy density is much better but it would be great if they solved the pollution problem as well.

I did come across another type of battery that supposed to be in production next year that maybe a good storage option for wind and solar projects.

Lithium-ion only provides approximately four hours of storage, whereas iron-air could deliver up to 100 hours—

Iron Air Battery: How It Works and Why It Could Change Energy (https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a42532492/iron-air-battery-energy-storage/)

I hope one of these ideas pan out and don't end up fizzling like cold fusion or thorium reactors.

[Michael G.]

I hope one of these ideas pan out and don't end up fizzling like cold fusion or thorium reactors.

I also wish the future will promising so people that need to make future vehicle
purchase can make the right choice instead shelling out thousands only to be disappointed.

[pbernard]

I now own 2 Teslas and just love them. No more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, mufflers, exhaust, timing belts… oh..and I’ll likely never need a brake job.
Keep on with your smoke, noxious fume cars. Electric is the future and my Teslas are damn fast.

[Battlebasset]

I now own 2 Teslas and just love them. No more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, mufflers, exhaust, timing belts… oh..and I’ll likely never need a brake job.
Keep on with your smoke, noxious fume cars. Electric is the future and my Teslas are damn fast.

If you own two Teslas then you must have quite a bit of money. And good for you, I am definitely not one of those that hates wealth. I've done pretty good myself, and earned every dollar I have. And you have every right to spend your money as you see fit.

But Tesla EV is in a category by itself. They are the gold standard. Unfortunately, the average Joe is going to be left with something that is quite a bit below that, as that is all they will be able to afford. And those are also the used EVs that the working poor will be looking to purchase. When you consider that the average age of a used car now for that group is about 12 years, they will be looking at EVs that unless the technology vastly improves are going to have degraded battery range to the point that replacement is needed.

In addition, they will not be able to afford at-home 220V chargers. Some/most won't even have a garage. They will be totally reliant on public chargers and the time it takes to charge with those.

A transportation economy that moves primarily to EV is going to impact most heavily those that can least afford it. EV IMO is a plaything for the more well-off in our society, not unlike my lithium ion golf cart, and will be for the foreseeable future.

[tuccillo]

I don't believe that it is reasonable to assume that used EVs would need a battery replacement. There are Teslas running around with 300K miles and relatively low amounts of range degradation. Tesla is talking about million mile battery packs. There have been EVs, such as the early Nissan Leafs, that had poorly engineered battery thermal management systems that led to early battery failure. I believe we are beyond that.

Regarding home charging, Level 2 typically requires a NEMA 14-50 outlet. These can be installed for about $500. For those who can't charge at home, I believe you will find charging at work will become more common and more public chargers will become available as more EVs are sold. I wouldn't assume anything will stay static - it never does.

The transition to EVs will take 20 years, or more (say, arbitrarily, 90% of the 16 million new cars, or whatever the number is in 20 years, sold in the US are EV) . Nobody is forcing anyone to buy an EV. The prices will continue to drop. A new Tesla Model Y is currently at $55K which is just above the average new car price. I think you will find many new EVs becoming available over the next 5 years that are less than or comparable in price to new gas cars of the same class. There is always going to be a part of society that will only be able to afford used cars. They may very well find that used EVs are comparable or perhaps even better than used gas cars. If you can charge at home, the cost per mile for "fuel" will be less with an EV.

If you own two Teslas then you must have quite a bit of money. And good for you, I am definitely not one of those that hates wealth. I've done pretty good myself, and earned every dollar I have. And you have every right to spend your money as you see fit.

But Tesla EV is in a category by itself. They are the gold standard. Unfortunately, the average Joe is going to be left with something that is quite a bit below that, as that is all they will be able to afford. And those are also the used EVs that the working poor will be looking to purchase. When you consider that the average age of a used car now for that group is about 12 years, they will be looking at EVs that unless the technology vastly improves are going to have degraded battery range to the point that replacement is needed.

In addition, they will not be able to afford at-home 220V chargers. Some/most won't even have a garage. They will be totally reliant on public chargers and the time it takes to charge with those.

A transportation economy that moves primarily to EV is going to impact most heavily those that can least afford it. EV IMO is a plaything for the more well-off in our society, not unlike my lithium ion golf cart, and will be for the foreseeable future.

[TraceJustice]

Lithium is about to be a thing of the past. Sodium batteries coming in hot.

[Aces4]

I now own 2 Teslas and just love them. No more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, mufflers, exhaust, timing belts… oh..and I’ll likely never need a brake job.
Keep on with your smoke, noxious fume cars. Electric is the future and my Teslas are damn fast.

Glad you like them. Does this mean you’ll never have a flat tire, will only keep the cars a short time so brakes aren’t an item, will never have to wait for the cars to charge, never have an issue finding a working charging station and so forth.

[Caymus]

Lithium is about to be a thing of the past. Sodium batteries coming in hot.

Until Dilithium Crystal technology can be developed.:angel:

[Flyers999]

Here’s my uninformed opinion of using an EV for environmental reasons. Please, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. ( I hope I am.)

When you use any electrical vehicle (EV), you are using energy powered by the grid which is powered by mostly fossil fuels. Only 12% of our electrical power stations use renewable sources (geothermal, solar, wind, biomass waste, biofuels and wood) the rest use fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and petroleum) with 8% nuclear. And virtually all of the new U.S. power stations that have come online in the past 20 years are natural gas. Most of the country’s natural gas supply is produced by fracking. The greenhouse gas footprint of fracked natural gas is actually worse than coal and oil because methane traps more heat in the atmosphere. Fracking also pollutes the fresh drinkable groundwater where it is produced. We might need that someday.

EVs do help densely populated cities—especially cities where air pollution is a problem, such as LA. But not in the Villages, where we are on a peninsula with the wind from the ocean/gulf continually blowing.

So wouldn’t the environment be better off with each of us using small individual quantities of fossil fuels to power our auto and heat our homes/stoves, rather than have these fuels run our power stations that convert the fossil fuels to electricity, which in turn, get converted back into heat or motion? To me it looks like a middleman doing an extra energy conversion. There has to be a loss whenever energy is converted from one format to another.

Thanks for listening.