Deplorable conditions at Havana

[b1ll649]

The developer should be embarrassed to charge $67 plus tax to play on some of the courses in The Villages. My group of 19 played Havana today and every player complained about the poor shape of the greens and the tight lies in the fairway. I think that the prices should fluctuate based on the conditions for that day. Glenview and Lopez always seem to be in great shape while other course vary from week to week. Today, Havana was not worth what we paid for it and our 2 guests had to pay over $80 to play.

[Bogie Shooter]

Havana. 352-750-8085, ask for the pro.
Or did you already speak with him?

[BrianL99]

The developer should be embarrassed to charge $67 plus tax to play on some of the courses in The Villages. My group of 19 played Havana today and every player complained about the poor shape of the greens and the tight lies in the fairway. I think that the prices should fluctuate based on the conditions for that day. Glenview and Lopez always seem to be in great shape while other course vary from week to week. Today, Havana was not worth what we paid for it and our 2 guests had to pay over $80 to play.

Had you checked this site prior to booking, you probably wouldn't have gone to Havana, it's been a topic of discussion for weeks. It's in horrendous condition. If they were handing out $100 bills on the 1st Tee, I still wouldn't play there.

[tophcfa]

Not sure what it is about Havana, in general no complaints about championship conditions, but that course is always the exception. Even Orange Blossom has far superior conditions, especially the greens. It’s a shame, Hemingway to Kilimanjaro is one of the better 18 holes in the Championship rotation assuming the conditions are decent, which they almost never are. Whoever is accountable for the conditions of that particular course needs to be replaced with someone who can perform up to the task.

[dewilson58]

I think that the prices should fluctuate based on the conditions for that day. .

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Then let's fire and hire staff based on conditions/revenues.
Then, Then we perform maintenance conditions/revenues.

[Rwirish]

We avoid playing Havana, just terrible shape.

[Mrmean58]

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Then let's fire and hire staff based on conditions/revenues.
Then, Then we perform maintenance conditions/revenues.

Or maybe we should assign tee times based on ability and not points. That would eliminate many of the slow play concerns.

[hrdcorpsmarine]

I’m curious, how many carts in your group of nineteen. How many of those golfers drive ALL OVER THE FAIRWAYS rather than staying on the cart path or in the rough until you get to a point where you CROSS the fairway to your ball. Also how many of your group totally disregard the exit markers and drive all the way up to the green???. My point is, you can’t abuse the golf course and expect it to remain in pristine condition. And then there’s the people who seem to refuse to repair ball marks, rake bunkers, and attempt to retrieve their ball from the cup with the handle. Oh yes let’s not forget dragging your feet all over the green.

My point is, it’s not the growing season AND we must do all we can to give the courses time to breathe.

[dewilson58]

Or maybe we should assign tee times based on ability and not points. That would eliminate many of the slow play concerns.

Ability and Slow Play are not always linked.

Si Woo Kim and John Catlin to name a couple.

[PennyAnn]

The corporate greed machine has no limits and no conscience.

[BrianL99]

... My point is, you can’t abuse the golf course and expect it to remain in pristine condition.

The difference between "pristine" and "Villages condition" is roughly triple the distance from the Earth to Mars.

[Jmontgom09@aol.com]

The developer should be embarrassed to charge $67 plus tax to play on some of the courses in The Villages. My group of 19 played Havana today and every player complained about the poor shape of the greens and the tight lies in the fairway. I think that the prices should fluctuate based on the conditions for that day. Glenview and Lopez always seem to be in great shape while other course vary from week to week. Today, Havana was not worth what we paid for it and our 2 guests had to pay over $80 to play.


I agree with conditions at Havana,terrible. We played Cane Garden yesterday ,it was worse than Havana. Weeds all over fairways , bare tee boxes , greens were a disaster. Hacienda has been in terrible condition, Bonifay and Belle Glade not much better. I heard the villages cut back on the money they pay the outside firm to maintain the courses. We need to make our voices heard.

[BrianL99]

I agree with conditions at Havana,terrible. We played Cane Garden yesterday ,it was worse than Havana. Weeds all over fairways , bare tee boxes , greens were a disaster. Hacienda has been in terrible condition, Bonifay and Belle Glade not much better. I heard the villages cut back on the money they pay the outside firm to maintain the courses. We need to make our voices heard.

Everyone talks about it, but no one is willing to do anything about it.

[dewilson58]

The developer should be embarrassed to charge $67 plus tax to play on some of the courses in The Villages.

Golfers should be embarrassed for paying, not the Developer for charging.

:faint:

[Papa_lecki]

Didn’t the championship courses lose revenue this year when the trail fee that was part of the enhancement membership was transferred to the development districts?

Are the executive courses better this year vs last since they have that revenue?

[Jmontgom09@aol.com]

I’m curious, how many carts in your group of nineteen. How many of those golfers drive ALL OVER THE FAIRWAYS rather than staying on the cart path or in the rough until you get to a point where you CROSS the fairway to your ball. Also how many of your group totally disregard the exit markers and drive all the way up to the green???. My point is, you can’t abuse the golf course and expect it to remain in pristine condition. And then there’s the people who seem to refuse to repair ball marks, rake bunkers, and attempt to retrieve their ball from the cup with the handle. Oh yes let’s not forget dragging your feet all over the green.

My point is, it’s not the growing season AND we must do all we can to give the courses time to breathe.



Players not looking for pristine conditions, just decent playing conditions. Our group played Cane and Havana this week. Terrible conditions, weeds all over fairways , bare,dirt tee boxes, greens a total disaster. Haciena no better ,same as Bonifay and Belle Glade. Other area courses priced the same ,much better. They keep cutting maintenance budgets ( no more overseeing),you see the results.

[BrianL99]

Players not looking for pristine conditions, just decent playing conditions. Our group played Cane and Havana this week. Terrible conditions, weeds all over fairways , bare,dirt tee boxes, greens a total disaster. Haciena no better ,same as Bonifay and Belle Glade. Other area courses priced the same ,much better. They keep cutting maintenance budgets ( no more overseeing),you see the results.

Based on your anti-recommendation, I played Allamanda & Hibiscus tonight. On a positive note, I played a "2 man scramble" with myself from the Blues & shot 72 in 2.5 hours. That was the only positive.

I haven't played Cane Gardens in a couple of weeks and its condition is abysmal. What I don't think many players realize (I ran a large facility that's had a LIV Tour event), lack of maintenance is cumulative. It's compounded every year that poor maintenance continues. You can't just turn around bad conditions in a couple of months. Bandaids only last so long.

I think they could throw $1,000,000 each, at Palmer, Mallory, Cane Garden & Mallory and still not have what most would consider "acceptable conditions". Tomorrow I start my search for a new retirement home, someplace that takes pride in their golf courses.

[Papa_lecki]

I think they could throw $1,000,000 each, at Palmer, Mallory, Cane Garden & Mallory and still not have what most would consider "acceptable conditions". Tomorrow I start my search for a new retirement home, someplace that takes pride in their golf courses.

$1,000,000 on 27 holes won’t do much, then goal should be good grass - more like $5,000,000 o 10,000,0000 at each of them, that’s without touching the irrigation or bunkers.

[sowilts]

Played Kenya and Kilimanjaro Friday and Saturday and the Greens are coming back. Really enjoy all three courses.

[dewilson58]

Tomorrow I start my search for a new retirement home, someplace that takes pride in their golf courses.

:BigApplause::BigApplause:

[Jmontgom09@aol.com]

Not sure what it is about Havana, in general no complaints about championship conditions, but that course is always the exception. Even Orange Blossom has far superior conditions, especially the greens. It’s a shame, Hemingway to Kilimanjaro is one of the better 18 holes in the Championship rotation assuming the conditions are decent, which they almost never are. Whoever is accountable for the conditions of that particular course needs to be replaced with someone who can perform up to the task.


You mention ,in general no complaints on championship courses. I played Cane Garden last week, hard to believe ,conditions worse than Havana. Belle Glade, Bonifay has sparse grass on the greens, high weeds on fringes , Hacienda Hills is terrible condition , Mallory greens a mess. Did you not play them ?

[dewilson58]

You mention ,in general no complaints on championship courses. I played Cane Garden last week, hard to believe ,conditions worse than Havana. Belle Glade, Bonifay has sparse grass on the greens, high weeds on fringes , Hacienda Hills is terrible condition , Mallory greens a mess. Did you not play them ?

Tis the Season.

We are coming "out of winter".

EVERY year, the condition whining posts start in February.

EVERY year, the Spring months bring better golfing conditions.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[will1546]

Played there 2/22/23 and it is still terrible 😞

[BrianL99]

Played Glenview yesterday & today.

I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone and had been transported off campus.

Greens on Stirrup Cup had been Top Dressed. Fertilizer on the Greens at Fox Run & Tally Ho.

Far and away, the best conditions in the bubble.

On a Scale of 1- 10 (Augusta National is a (10), Havana is a 3.0), I'd give Glenview a 6.5.

[PoolBrews]

I’m curious, how many carts in your group of nineteen. How many of those golfers drive ALL OVER THE FAIRWAYS rather than staying on the cart path or in the rough until you get to a point where you CROSS the fairway to your ball. Also how many of your group totally disregard the exit markers and drive all the way up to the green???. My point is, you can’t abuse the golf course and expect it to remain in pristine condition. And then there’s the people who seem to refuse to repair ball marks, rake bunkers, and attempt to retrieve their ball from the cup with the handle. Oh yes let’s not forget dragging your feet all over the green.

My point is, it’s not the growing season AND we must do all we can to give the courses time to breathe.

I agree with your comments - in particular I always see golfers leave the path as soon as they are past the last tee and drive up the fairway. They have no clue as to the concept of a 90 degree rule.

Having said that - the fact that one course is far worse than others tells me that there are other factors in play here. If it were just the folks driving on the fairways, all the courses would be horrible... and this does not account for the conditions of the greens themselves. These issues can be laid directly at the feet of those that care (read "they do NOT take care") for the course.

[Halpan]

Our group played Hemingway to Killamajaro yesterday. Hemingway is in horrendous condition and should be closed until serious issues are corrected. The Villages should be embarrassed to allow play. Describing the greens as "terrible" would be an understatement. For instance, the 8th green looks like a quilt with numerous patches 4' X 4' in size.

[Jmontgom09@aol.com]

[QUOTE=dewilson58;2189622]Tis the Season.

We are coming "out of winter".

EVERY year, the condition whining posts start in February.

EVERY year, the Spring months bring better golfing conditions.



Area courses much better , same weather. Priced about the same. Can’t blame weather for weeds all over ,including greens, fringes. Very poor maintenance ,it’s. Been a deterioration each year for the last five years.

[Papa_lecki]

Players not looking for pristine conditions, just decent playing conditions. Our group played Cane and Havana this week. Terrible conditions, weeds all over fairways , bare,dirt tee boxes, greens a total disaster. Haciena no better ,same as Bonifay and Belle Glade. Other area courses priced the same ,much better. They keep cutting maintenance budgets ( no more overseeing),you see the results.

Played Belle Glade this morning, and Bonifay last week - they were in great shape.

[UpNorth]

Area courses much better , same weather. Priced about the same. Can’t blame weather for weeds all over ,including greens, fringes. Very poor maintenance ,it’s. Been a deterioration each year for the last five years.[/QUOTE]

What looks like weeds is actually poa annua grass, that sprouts in clumps and grows quickly at this time of year. Any course that has it has a problem, since you can't selectively get rid of it and it spreads easily. Suppressants, and cutting the greens every day would make it playable, but don't expect it to be done here. Killing the grass and replanting is the other answer. Don't expect that to happen either. Mowers can carry it from green to green, and I've seen areas what we cut out and replanted with sod in an effort to stop it from moving across the green. It will turn yellow and die soon, but not before distributing countless seeds that will once again sprout in the Fall and next Spring. A greenskeeper's nightmare. The Villages have let this problem get out of hand. Plenty of area courses don't have this going on.

[guitarguy]

We played Hemingway -Kilimanjaro yesterday and it was greatly improved from 3 weeks ago. It was obvious that someone has taken notice. I was expecting awful conditions and I was wrong. I would go back.

[kkingston57]

I’m curious, how many carts in your group of nineteen. How many of those golfers drive ALL OVER THE FAIRWAYS rather than staying on the cart path or in the rough until you get to a point where you CROSS the fairway to your ball. Also how many of your group totally disregard the exit markers and drive all the way up to the green???. My point is, you can’t abuse the golf course and expect it to remain in pristine condition. And then there’s the people who seem to refuse to repair ball marks, rake bunkers, and attempt to retrieve their ball from the cup with the handle. Oh yes let’s not forget dragging your feet all over the green.

My point is, it’s not the growing season AND we must do all we can to give the courses time to breathe.

Agree we are not in the growing season but this has been a relatively mild winter. Even Orange Blossom is more playable and Hacienda is in much better shape than past 2 years.

[kkingston57]

Based on your anti-recommendation, I played Allamanda & Hibiscus tonight. On a positive note, I played a "2 man scramble" with myself from the Blues & shot 72 in 2.5 hours. That was the only positive.

I haven't played Cane Gardens in a couple of weeks and its condition is abysmal. What I don't think many players realize (I ran a large facility that's had a LIV Tour event), lack of maintenance is cumulative. It's compounded every year that poor maintenance continues. You can't just turn around bad conditions in a couple of months. Bandaids only last so long.

I think they could throw $1,000,000 each, at Palmer, Mallory, Cane Garden & Mallory and still not have what most would consider "acceptable conditions". Tomorrow I start my search for a new retirement home, someplace that takes pride in their golf courses.

Might start a little north of TV, Country Club of Ocala.

[barbnick]

Had you checked this site prior to booking, you probably wouldn't have gone to Havana, it's been a topic of discussion for weeks. It's in horrendous condition. If they were handing out $100 bills on the 1st Tee, I still wouldn't play there.

You are a Villager. You would definitely play for $100!

[Bogie Shooter]

Tomorrow I start my search for a new retirement home, someplace that takes pride in their golf courses.

:BigApplause::BigApplause:

:wave:

[dewilson58]

Jus played Havana today.

They are doing a lot of repairs to the greens.

Coming out of winter....................it's that time.

Re-seeding and sod in some places.

Quit the whining....................they are making improvements, investing money.
((whine if they don't))

Tee boxes are good.
Fairways have grass..............which is pretty good for 1st of March.

:pepper2:

[dewilson58]

:wave:

Sometimes the whiners actually leave.
But unfortunately, they stay on ToTV.

:beer3:

[johnboy]

It is mind boggling the conditions of our Championship Courses here in The Villages. Considering the following that approximately at $50 a round equates to $200 per foursome for each tee time. With 10 Championship Courses having 27 holes, that comes out to approximately $600 per course for every tee time. With about 16 tee times per wave, that is approximately $9,600 for the morning wave, then the same amount again for the afternoon wave. That's $19,200 coming into their kitty every day. Now add in the 3 courses that only have 18 holes which equates to approx. $6,400 per wave or $12,800 a day. That's approx. $32,000 a day coming into their pockets. With that amount you would think they should be able to provide the necessary fertilizer, labor, equipment, etc., needed to give us decent conditions to play on and be proud of to bring guests into play.

[tophcfa]

Considering the following that approximately at $50 a round equates to $200 per foursome for each tee time.

$50 dollars per round? I wish! As I non priority resident my credit card gets rung up for $72 per round and my guests get hit for $83 after taxes. Southern Oakes is even more $$$$.

[golfing eagles]

It is mind boggling the conditions of our Championship Courses here in The Villages. Considering the following that approximately at $50 a round equates to $200 per foursome for each tee time. With 10 Championship Courses having 27 holes, that comes out to approximately $600 per course for every tee time. With about 16 tee times per wave, that is approximately $9,600 for the morning wave, then the same amount again for the afternoon wave. That's $19,200 coming into their kitty every day. Now add in the 3 courses that only have 18 holes which equates to approx. $6,400 per wave or $12,800 a day. That's approx. $32,000 a day coming into their pockets. With that amount you would think they should be able to provide the necessary fertilizer, labor, equipment, etc., needed to give us decent conditions to play on and be proud of to bring guests into play.

I think your math is quite a bit off the mark. $32K/day x 364 days (Christmas is free)= 11.68 million/year. However, there are approximately 1 million rounds/year played on the championship courses at closer to an average of $60/round = $60 million/year. It takes about $6-700,000 per 9 holes to keep a course in pristine condition, and we have 36 nines, so about 22 million would do the job, probably even less due to economy of scale. Now you have to pay the staff, pay for water and maintain the facility----probably plenty of $$$$ left over based on those assumptions---but I probably forgot some things----drcar?????

[drcar]

I think your math is quite a bit off the mark. $32K/day x 364 days (Christmas is free)= 11.68 million/year. However, there are approximately 1 million rounds/year played on the championship courses at closer to an average of $60/round = $60 million/year. It takes about $6-700,000 per 9 holes to keep a course in pristine condition, and we have 36 nines, so about 22 million would do the job, probably even less due to economy of scale. Now you have to pay the staff, pay for water and maintain the facility----probably plenty of $$$$ left over based on those assumptions---but I probably forgot some things----drcar?????

As usual, you are spot on. BUT as you know we get the same complaints every year at this time of year. What the golfers (resident) don't want to hear is the truth. Take this year for example. Two very bad freezes, no rain for weeks AND golfers all over the place. The complaint is always the same, the developer is at fault, they are are not putting money into the courses. Well NOT true! The have and continue to redo courses, BUT this does not happen over night. Yes Lopez, Glenview, Tierra, and one nine at palmer in better shape! They have been redone. I say realizing that people are going to say "the greedy family." But we will have this discussion again next year or next week!

[BrianL99]

It is mind boggling the conditions of our Championship Courses here in The Villages. Considering the following that approximately at $50 a round equates to $200 per foursome for each tee time. With 10 Championship Courses having 27 holes, that comes out to approximately $600 per course for every tee time. With about 16 tee times per wave, that is approximately $9,600 for the morning wave, then the same amount again for the afternoon wave. That's $19,200 coming into their kitty every day. Now add in the 3 courses that only have 18 holes which equates to approx. $6,400 per wave or $12,800 a day. That's approx. $32,000 a day coming into their pockets. With that amount you would think they should be able to provide the necessary fertilizer, labor, equipment, etc., needed to give us decent conditions to play on and be proud of to bring guests into play.


Your math is so far off, it's shouldn't even be call "math".

The Championship Golf operation in The Villages grosses north of $75,000,000/year and probably south of $100,000,000.

As Golfing Eagles pointed out, the cost to "maintain the grass" is approximately $650,000/year/9 holes (between $500K - $800K, depending on the quality).

If I had to estimate based on industry averages (leaving out the restaurants), the cost to run The Villages golf operation is approximately $1M - $1.3M per 9 holes (includes all staffing, utilities, insurance, etc.)

The golf course business is cash monster.

[kkingston57]

Your math is so far off, it's shouldn't even be call "math".

The Championship Golf operation in The Villages grosses north of $75,000,000/year and probably south of $100,000,000.

As Golfing Eagles pointed out, the cost to "maintain the grass" is approximately $650,000/year/9 holes (between $500K - $800K, depending on the quality).

If I had to estimate based on industry averages (leaving out the restaurants), the cost to run The Villages golf operation is approximately $1M - $1.3M per 9 holes (includes all staffing, utilities, insurance, etc.)

The golf course business is cash monster.

Politely dis agree. If golf is a cash monster why have so many courses/clubs gone out of business? Covid was the best thing to happen for golf. Hard to extrapolate how much cash will be brought in/go out due to factors like weather, bug infestations, funguses/molds that can occur. Labor, chemicals and fuel are always going up. All courses do need to completely re sodded no matter how good it is maintained.