They used to build the amenities first – fact or fiction – the chicken and the egg?

[Goldwingnut]

“They used to build the amenities first”, I’ve seen this posted many times on this and other web sites, but is it true, or is it a perception, or is it misinformation? After lots of digging into this, looking at historical photos, and having watched closely the building of The Villages for the last nine years, I can say without a doubt that all three conclusions are in fact, correct.

Before I jump into this topic, we need to clear the air on what is an “Amenity” and what is not. An “Amenity” here in The Villages is a facility, building, or area that is built for the enjoyment of residents or that is provided to improve the quality of the experience of living here in The Villages. These would include pools, executive golf courses, recreation centers, postal stations, various sports courts, pitches, and fields, and the gates and gate houses. What is not an “Amenity” is just about everything else: businesses, grocery stores, restaurants, shopping areas, town squares, championship golf courses, medical facilities, and much much more.

Of all these non-Amenities, only the championship courses and the town squares are built before and during the construction of the surrounding homes. The rest only come after there is a sufficient population and customer base to ensure a profitable business. There I go again, using that word that has had many of my posts deleted from other web sites, profit, because I do not see evil in a business making a profit. It’s the only reason why people go into business, to make a profit. Many living in our little bubble have forgotten that it is and always has been “profit” that makes our world go around. “If you build it, they will come” is a great movie theme but a poor business plan destined for failure. Without an adequate customer base, a business fails, this is why Magnolia Plaza took so long to open.

Does the developer build the amenities before the homes? Some of them yes, and some of them as homes are being built. For example, the neighborhood pools, postal stations, and gate houses are being built before the first homes are started in an areas. Executive golf courses are also started early in the development of an area, they are however much more time intensive due to the growing cycle of the grass and sometimes are not quite ready to open when the homes start to become available. The village and regional recreation centers area also being built starting in advance of and then at the same time as the homes in an area. Recent examples of this are the Aviary, Homestead, and Ezell Rec Centers, Clifton Cove putting course. For the golf courses the Mickylee and Jubilee courses open shortly after occupancy started in Newell. Franklin Recreation Center is nearing completion and will be opening soon as the homes around it in Newell and Lake Denham start to become occupied. Down in Dabney, the pool and postal station are under construction, before any homes have been built. Surely, this readily disproves the myth that they no longer build the amenities first, the empirical data speaks for itself.

There is however a perception that in recent years amenities were not built first. To understand this perception, one needs to look at how building has progressed over the years here in The Villages. There is no better place for this than the main ballroom of the Rohan Rec Center. Rohan chronicles the growth and milestones of The Villages development over the years with lots of memorabilia, newspaper articles, and advertisement material that has been produced over the year in each of the room. In the main ballroom there are aerial shots of the community dating back to 1984 when the community was first started. Most of the photos not only show when the photo was taken but also the number of dwelling units (D.U.) I’ve included a link to copies of the pictures I took of most of these below – the files are big and very detailed, about 20Mb each, they were shot with a 33MP camera and have a resolution of 3944x7008 or over 3 times the total resolution of a 4K TV, so seeing the details is pretty easy when you blow them up.

Looking at these photos, in every case where homes are being built, there are amenities – golf courses and rec centers – under construction in addition to the homes. In looking at these pictures if one assumes an imaginary line where the newest homes for sale are on one side and the ones under construction on the other. If you were looking for a new home, you’d be looking on the completed side of the line and if you looked over your shoulder you would see completed amenities, that may only be a few months old, but behind you none the less. Those amenities were built before the home you are looking at was built. But just beyond our imaginary line, both homes and amenities are under construction.

Now come back and look at the area again in three months. Our line has advanced revealing new homes and perhaps some new amenities, and still again, newly completed amenities over your shoulder. And so, this line and perception of amenities before homes progressed for about 30 years. When I moved to the Village of Hillsborough nine years ago, Lake Deaton was under construction as was Dunedin and the Manatee Rec Center, but already completed was Big Cypress and Bradenton, both close by and built before my home was built. Over the next few years, I watched the line move forward and the Burnsed, Moyer, and Rohan Rec Center being built as new homes continued to be built, always with the same pattern that I mentioned above. Look carefully at the pictures and you’ll see this happening year after year in each successive picture.

Then something different happened in 2016, the Wildwood Springs development after sitting idly for nearly a decade decided it was time to move forward with building new homes and got the approvals from the city of Wildwood to move ahead. They moved ahead with a new partner to build their homes, The Villages. Wildwood Springs is no more, it is now known as the Villages of Fenney and DeSoto. By early 2017 homes were being built and the Fenney Rec Center was under construction to open in June, new homes previewed in February and March of 2017 in Fenney. Now the mold is broken, let the complaining begin. Things started anew and they had some catching up to do, and they did so quickly, and they re-established that imaginary line that continued to be pushed back with new homes and new amenities.

But with the advent of Fenney came new perceptions. First up was that they were building homes before the amenities. False. They were building as they always had with amenities and homes at the same time, the difference was that now, you had to drive through the construction areas to get to the new homes, something previously not done. The grand scale of the efforts that had gone on beyond the imaginary “Construction Zone, Do Not Enter” line for over two decades was now on full display. Kind of like doing a backstage tour of Disney, the magic is go afterwards. Next was that they were building too fast. Nope. They were and still are building at pretty much the same pace that they have for the last 20 years; once again, the cat was out of the bag, and everyone could finally see what was happening. Adding to their headaches was some clown flying a drone over the new areas giving everyone a bird's eye view of what was happening and posting it on the internet. Despite their many efforts to stop this flow of information, it continues to this day, but that’s all a story for a different post.

Had they not acquired the Wildwood Springs development in a ready to move forward condition, they would have probably moved forward with the work in the Cresswind development that they had acquired, and work would have moved forward as it always had with few seeing past the imaginary line to see what was coming from behind the curtain. You are probably asking yourself where the heck is Cresswind? We now know Cresswind as the villages of Richmond and St. Johns. Early Cresswind drawings even show a path crossing the turnpike at about the same location as the Water Lilly bridge. Remember in my last posting where I said that Brownwood was planned to be surrounded by its primary customers, here you have it, Cresswind. Things went a little out of order because of Wildwood Springs but they are back on track for the most part, moving south now from Newell and Monarch Grove the new lines are being drawn.

For the most part, things are as they always have been, amenities are being built with the homes and communities. A few perceptions of what is happening have changed and the typical wealth of misinformation continues to surface.

Some will say I’m Monday morning quarterbacking this topic, hardly so, I’ve been watching, tracking, and collecting data for the last nine years, and literally have thousands of documents, photos, and maps that I’ve collected over the years on what is happening and how they are building The Villages. It’s easy to see the puzzle pieces come together when you have some many in front of you.

One last thing, going back to the business being built. Take a look at the photos showing the early 2000’s and late 90’s. The huge commercial development on 466 west of Buena Vista didn’t exist even after homes were being built south of 466. Even as late as 2008, much of the building there was mainly the new District offices that they didn’t move out of until about 2015. There was not the plethora of business supporting the new homes in the area for the first few years. Much like things are South of 44 today.

Please, if you have specific questions of me related to actions and plans of Sumter County, I would ask that you direct them to my county email address or call my office at the county and not ask me to address them here. I’ll discuss general topics, some of my opinions, and historical issues here, but always with an eye to being in compliance with the Florida Sunshine Laws and public records keeping requirements.

Link to historical maps of The Villages
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ms9b1nsoys2x67m/AABu0UH-iTFq3kzGXzpfnWm7a?dl=0

[John Mayes]

“They used to build the amenities first”, I’ve seen this posted many times on this and other web sites, but is it true, or is it a perception, or is it misinformation? After lots of digging into this, looking at historical photos, and having watched closely the building of The Villages for the last nine years, I can say without a doubt that all three conclusions are in fact, correct.

Before I jump into this topic, we need to clear the air on what is an “Amenity” and what is not. An “Amenity” here in The Villages is a facility, building, or area that is built for the enjoyment of residents or that is provided to improve the quality of the experience of living here in The Villages. These would include pools, executive golf courses, recreation centers, postal stations, various sports courts, pitches, and fields, and the gates and gate houses. What is not an “Amenity” is just about everything else: businesses, grocery stores, restaurants, shopping areas, town squares, championship golf courses, medical facilities, and much much more.

Of all these non-Amenities, only the championship courses and the town squares are built before and during the construction of the surrounding homes. The rest only come after there is a sufficient population and customer base to ensure a profitable business. There I go again, using that word that has had many of my posts deleted from other web sites, profit, because I do not see evil in a business making a profit. It’s the only reason why people go into business, to make a profit. Many living in our little bubble have forgotten that it is and always has been “profit” that makes our world go around. “If you build it, they will come” is a great movie theme but a poor business plan destined for failure. Without an adequate customer base, a business fails, this is why Magnolia Plaza took so long to open.

Does the developer build the amenities before the homes? Some of them yes, and some of them as homes are being built. For example, the neighborhood pools, postal stations, and gate houses are being built before the first homes are started in an areas. Executive golf courses are also started early in the development of an area, they are however much more time intensive due to the growing cycle of the grass and sometimes are not quite ready to open when the homes start to become available. The village and regional recreation centers area also being built starting in advance of and then at the same time as the homes in an area. Recent examples of this are the Aviary, Homestead, and Ezell Rec Centers, Clifton Cove putting course. For the golf courses the Mickylee and Jubilee courses open shortly after occupancy started in Newell. Franklin Recreation Center is nearing completion and will be opening soon as the homes around it in Newell and Lake Denham start to become occupied. Down in Dabney, the pool and postal station are under construction, before any homes have been built. Surely, this readily disproves the myth that they no longer build the amenities first, the empirical data speaks for itself.

There is however a perception that in recent years amenities were not built first. To understand this perception, one needs to look at how building has progressed over the years here in The Villages. There is no better place for this than the main ballroom of the Rohan Rec Center. Rohan chronicles the growth and milestones of The Villages development over the years with lots of memorabilia, newspaper articles, and advertisement material that has been produced over the year in each of the room. In the main ballroom there are aerial shots of the community dating back to 1984 when the community was first started. Most of the photos not only show when the photo was taken but also the number of dwelling units (D.U.) I’ve included a link to copies of the pictures I took of most of these below – the files are big and very detailed, about 20Mb each, they were shot with a 33MP camera and have a resolution of 3944x7008 or over 3 times the total resolution of a 4K TV, so seeing the details is pretty easy when you blow them up.

Looking at these photos, in every case where homes are being built, there are amenities – golf courses and rec centers – under construction in addition to the homes. In looking at these pictures if one assumes an imaginary line where the newest homes for sale are on one side and the ones under construction on the other. If you were looking for a new home, you’d be looking on the completed side of the line and if you looked over your shoulder you would see completed amenities, that may only be a few months old, but behind you none the less. Those amenities were built before the home you are looking at was built. But just beyond our imaginary line, both homes and amenities are under construction.

Now come back and look at the area again in three months. Our line has advanced revealing new homes and perhaps some new amenities, and still again, newly completed amenities over your shoulder. And so, this line and perception of amenities before homes progressed for about 30 years. When I moved to the Village of Hillsborough nine years ago, Lake Deaton was under construction as was Dunedin and the Manatee Rec Center, but already completed was Big Cypress and Bradenton, both close by and built before my home was built. Over the next few years, I watched the line move forward and the Burnsed, Moyer, and Rohan Rec Center being built as new homes continued to be built, always with the same pattern that I mentioned above. Look carefully at the pictures and you’ll see this happening year after year in each successive picture.

Then something different happened in 2016, the Wildwood Springs development after sitting idly for nearly a decade decided it was time to move forward with building new homes and got the approvals from the city of Wildwood to move ahead. They moved ahead with a new partner to build their homes, The Villages. Wildwood Springs is no more, it is now known as the Villages of Fenney and DeSoto. By early 2017 homes were being built and the Fenney Rec Center was under construction to open in June, new homes previewed in February and March of 2017 in Fenney. Now the mold is broken, let the complaining begin. Things started anew and they had some catching up to do, and they did so quickly, and they re-established that imaginary line that continued to be pushed back with new homes and new amenities.

But with the advent of Fenney came new perceptions. First up was that they were building homes before the amenities. False. They were building as they always had with amenities and homes at the same time, the difference was that now, you had to drive through the construction areas to get to the new homes, something previously not done. The grand scale of the efforts that had gone on beyond the imaginary “Construction Zone, Do Not Enter” line for over two decades was now on full display. Kind of like doing a backstage tour of Disney, the magic is go afterwards. Next was that they were building too fast. Nope. They were and still are building at pretty much the same pace that they have for the last 20 years; once again, the cat was out of the bag, and everyone could finally see what was happening. Adding to their headaches was some clown flying a drone over the new areas giving everyone a bird's eye view of what was happening and posting it on the internet. Despite their many efforts to stop this flow of information, it continues to this day, but that’s all a story for a different post.

Had they not acquired the Wildwood Springs development in a ready to move forward condition, they would have probably moved forward with the work in the Cresswind development that they had acquired, and work would have moved forward as it always had with few seeing past the imaginary line to see what was coming from behind the curtain. You are probably asking yourself where the heck is Cresswind? We now know Cresswind as the villages of Richmond and St. Johns. Early Cresswind drawings even show a path crossing the turnpike at about the same location as the Water Lilly bridge. Remember in my last posting where I said that Brownwood was planned to be surrounded by its primary customers, here you have it, Cresswind. Things went a little out of order because of Wildwood Springs but they are back on track for the most part, moving south now from Newell and Monarch Grove the new lines are being drawn.

For the most part, things are as they always have been, amenities are being built with the homes and communities. A few perceptions of what is happening have changed and the typical wealth of misinformation continues to surface.

Some will say I’m Monday morning quarterbacking this topic, hardly so, I’ve been watching, tracking, and collecting data for the last nine years, and literally have thousands of documents, photos, and maps that I’ve collected over the years on what is happening and how they are building The Villages. It’s easy to see the puzzle pieces come together when you have some many in front of you.

One last thing, going back to the business being built. Take a look at the photos showing the early 2000’s and late 90’s. The huge commercial development on 466 west of Buena Vista didn’t exist even after homes were being built south of 466. Even as late as 2008, much of the building there was mainly the new District offices that they didn’t move out of until about 2015. There was not the plethora of business supporting the new homes in the area for the first few years. Much like things are South of 44 today.

Please, if you have specific questions of me related to actions and plans of Sumter County, I would ask that you direct them to my county email address or call my office at the county and not ask me to address them here. I’ll discuss general topics, some of my opinions, and historical issues here, but always with an eye to being in compliance with the Florida Sunshine Laws and public records keeping requirements.

Link to historical maps of The Villages
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ms9b1nsoys2x67m/AABu0UH-iTFq3kzGXzpfnWm7a?dl=0

Thanks Don. Great info!

[dewilson58]

Sunnyside up is my preference.

Excellent post.

My post would have been:
H^ll yes The Villages are still building amenities prior to the homes.
The negative nellies love to post Fake News.

:MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot:

[Altavia]

Facinating story Don, truely appreciate the uploads also.

Historically, was there any change in the financial methodology that enables infrastructure and then Amenities to be built first? This seems to be a huge distinction that enabled the contineous planned development?

[2newyorkers]

This was great info. When we moved into our home in Tall Trees in 2005 the Publix shopping center on 466 was completed and open. Bob Evans also opened that year.

[pauld315]

Interesting but I remember taking a bus tour shortly after moving here in 2017 and part of their script was that The Villages always build the amenities in an area before building the houses. That was certainly true in Fenney as I remember driving down there and using a pool that was built before any houses were built in the area.

[Dond1959]

Hey Don, thanks for the information. One thing that I hear constantly is the lack of additional executive and championship golf south of 44. I know in the past you looked a holes per rooftops and showed the ratio had not changed over the years. Is that still true even with all the growth over the past few years?

[Bogie Shooter]

Interesting but I remember taking a bus tour shortly after moving here in 2017 and part of their script was that The Villages always build the amenities in an area before building the houses. That was certainly true in Fenney as I remember driving down there and using a pool that was built before any houses were built in the area.
Maybe the tour guide went off script.

[Laker14]

As an aside: I enjoy looking at some of the fly-overs from a few years ago, when areas now fully built up were just scraped up sand.

Don's collection of fly-overs will truly be (and already is) a treasure trove of Villages history.

[VApeople]

Interesting but I remember taking a bus tour shortly after moving here in 2017 and part of their script was that The Villages always build the amenities in an area before building the houses.

Yeah, we remember the same thing.

We took the bus tour in 2015 and were told the amenities would be ready before the houses were built. They said, "When you start to pay, you can start to play."

That was certainly true when we moved into Osceola Hills in 2016. There were very few houses built but both the adult pool and the family pool were open.

[VApeople]

Don's collection of fly-overs will truly be (and already is) a treasure trove of Villages history.

My favorite was when he was doing a video of the McClure area and got down real low to get a close look at the tunnel going to the future area of Linden. As his drone got a good close view of the tunnel, he said, "Yeah, I thought about it."

I'm sure many of us viewers were thinking, "Yeah, go for it!"

[Goldwingnut]

Facinating story Don, truely appreciate the uploads also.

Historically, was there any change in the financial methodology that enables infrastructure and then Amenities to be built first? This seems to be a huge distinction that enabled the contineous planned development?

Basically, NO, there have been very few changes in the last 30 years. FS chapter 190 came into existence in about 1980 and allowed for the special purpose CDD governments to be formed. The CDDs carry the burden of the infrastructure through municipal bonds that area issued. The bonds are then paid off by the residents whose homes have benefited from the infrastructure. The infrastructure is a necessity to create the community.

Amenities, when they are built are not a part of the CDD, they are privately owned property built by developers to attract residents to the communities that they are building. Even after the community is built the amenities remain private property and in the case of The Villages, they are a business unit of the developer's portfolio.

Infrastructure obviously must be built first. Amenities can be built anytime by anyone. In our case the developer builds them along with the early infrastructure construction. This is why in some communities they'll sell houses before the amenities are built - "and over there will be the tee for the 7th hole and over there will be the swimming pool, when (if) they are built.

Infrastructure and amenities are funded separately, one is public and the other is private.

I'm not sure what developments you are considering contentious.

[Goldwingnut]

My favorite was when he was doing a video of the McClure area and got down real low to get a close look at the tunnel going to the future area of Linden. As his drone got a good close view of the tunnel, he said, "Yeah, I thought about it."

I'm sure many of us viewers were thinking, "Yeah, go for it!"

Remember that video well of McClure area being built, I really wanted to fly the tunnel, but I was too far away to do it safely and to get any closer I would have had to go past several No Trespassing signs. At that time, I wasn't on the best of terms with the developer, things are a little better now, but I still have to walk a very fine line and dodge the occasional bullet with the work I do.

[Goldwingnut]

Hey Don, thanks for the information. One thing that I hear constantly is the lack of additional executive and championship golf south of 44. I know in the past you looked a holes per rooftops and showed the ratio had not changed over the years. Is that still true even with all the growth over the past few years?

I'll find my spreadsheet and update it and run the numbers again to get some exact figures, but basically, the numbers/rations overall haven't varied much.

[Altavia]

Basically, NO, there have been very few changes in the last 30 years. FS chapter 190 came into existence in about 1980 and allowed for the special purpose CDD governments to be formed. The CDDs carry the burden of the infrastructure through municipal bonds that area issued. The bonds are then paid off by the residents whose homes have benefited from the infrastructure. The infrastructure is a necessity to create the community.

Amenities, when they are built are not a part of the CDD, they are privately owned property built by developers to attract residents to the communities that they are building. Even after the community is built the amenities remain private property and in the case of The Villages, they are a business unit of the developer's portfolio.

Infrastructure obviously must be built first. Amenities can be built anytime by anyone. In our case the developer builds them along with the early infrastructure construction. This is why in some communities they'll sell houses before the amenities are built - "and over there will be the tee for the 7th hole and over there will be the swimming pool, when (if) they are built.

Infrastructure and amenities are funded separately, one is public and the other is private.

I'm not sure what developments you are considering contentious.

Thanks Don for helping my understanding.

[NotGolfer]

Most of the nay-sayers may not attend a "Night with the Developer" or even read The Daily Sun (if I can go by the comments on social media against the Morse family). Thank you Don for your information----it 'should' shed some light on how our community works. I agree with you about business, though we've never owned one. From what I've gathered there has been many years of a business plan in place---even when Mr. Swartz was still living. From what I see, they've done a great job! What I don't "get" is how folks come, buy a place "because they wanted the life-style" then complain about every.single.thing!! It's a NIMBY mentality. Moving from "there" to bring the "there" they were moving from to "here" just doesn't make sense! Keep us informed and updated, as you so aptly do Mr. Wiley!!

[Garywt]

We first started looking when Labelle was just being built and Pine Hiils and Pine Ridge was just dirt as far as you could see. We would drive by often and on every ride we would drive by the completed mail stations and pools all ready to go. There were golf courses being built in the area as well. Shopping was already in the area and a few places were under construction. Everything was ready to go when they started the first house in the area.

[Papa_lecki]

I'll find my spreadsheet and update it and run the numbers again to get some exact figures, but basically, the numbers/rations overall haven't varied much.

The championship courses need to be able to financially sustain themselves in any particular area - so there need to be enough bodies to pay greens fees. Sure people will travel to golf, but not many are traveling from north of 466 to golf south of the turnpike 3 days a week. On the other hand, I live north of 44 and golf at the 3 championship there.3 times a week

Same with the executives, need enough houses paying amenity fees to support the operation. Plenty of holes are coming south of turnpike (between 44 and turnpike, isn’t wide enough for many courses).

I would guess, if not now, in 12 months, the ratio of roofs to holes will be back to where its traditionally been

[Rainger99]

Plenty of holes are coming south of turnpike (between 44 and turnpike, isn’t wide enough for many courses).


The area between 44 and the turnpike is plenty wide for golf courses. It was clearly wide enough to build a championship course there.
They just didn’t put them in. The houses along the turnpike are too close to the turnpike. They could have put several executive courses right next to the turnpike as a buffer from 44 down to 470. Or they could have built executive courses instead of Richmond P&P and Mickylee P&P. An 18 hole P&P takes up almost as much space as a 9 hole executive if not more.

[FromDC]

.......

Don's collection of fly-overs will truly be (and already is) a treasure trove of Villages history.

Maybe there should be a Don Wiley Regional Rec Center to store and display this memorabilia.

[NoMo50]

I was wondering why some of the new Villages do not have neighborhood (adult) pools. In the recent past, when a new Village was started, (think Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, St. Catherine, Citrus Grove), the first things built were the postal station and the adult pool. However, the two newest Villages, Newell and Lake Denham, do not have an adult pool. Why is that? They are certainly large Villages, with around 2,000 homes between them.

Recently, my wife and I went through a few new open houses in Newell (she just likes to do that!). At one of the open houses, I asked the Sales Associate why Newell did not have a neighborhood pool. She told me, "it has not been built yet." When I asked if a pool would be built in Newell, she said, "absolutely." I then pointed to the development map on the kitchen counter, and asked her, "where?"

Obviously, there are no plans for an adult pool in either Newell or Lake Denham. Misinformation like that alluded to by the salesperson could lead unsuspecting or uninformed buyers to expect something that will never come. But...the question remains: why are some Villages being developed without a neighborhood pool?

[Veracity]

I was wondering why some of the new Villages do not have neighborhood (adult) pools. In the recent past, when a new Village was started, (think Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, St. Catherine, Citrus Grove), the first things built were the postal station and the adult pool. However, the two newest Villages, Newell and Lake Denham, do not have an adult pool. Why is that? They are certainly large Villages, with around 2,000 homes between them.

Recently, my wife and I went through a few new open houses in Newell (she just likes to do that!). At one of the open houses, I asked the Sales Associate why Newell did not have a neighborhood pool. She told me, "it has not been built yet." When I asked if a pool would be built in Newell, she said, "absolutely." I then pointed to the development map on the kitchen counter, and asked her, "where?"

Obviously, there are no plans for an adult pool in either Newell or Lake Denham. Misinformation like that alluded to by the salesperson could lead unsuspecting or uninformed buyers to expect something that will never come. But...the question remains: why are some Villages being developed without a neighborhood pool?

This is not unique to some of the new villages. The Village of Osceola Hills at Soaring Eagle (located north of 44) does not have a neighborhood pool either.

[mkjelenbaas]

“They used to build the amenities first”, I’ve seen this posted many times on this and other web sites, but is it true, or is it a perception, or is it misinformation? After lots of digging into this, looking at historical photos, and having watched closely the building of The Villages for the last nine years, I can say without a doubt that all three conclusions are in fact, correct.

Before I jump into this topic, we need to clear the air on what is an “Amenity” and what is not. An “Amenity” here in The Villages is a facility, building, or area that is built for the enjoyment of residents or that is provided to improve the quality of the experience of living here in The Villages. These would include pools, executive golf courses, recreation centers, postal stations, various sports courts, pitches, and fields, and the gates and gate houses. What is not an “Amenity” is just about everything else: businesses, grocery stores, restaurants, shopping areas, town squares, championship golf courses, medical facilities, and much much more.

Of all these non-Amenities, only the championship courses and the town squares are built before and during the construction of the surrounding homes. The rest only come after there is a sufficient population and customer base to ensure a profitable business. There I go again, using that word that has had many of my posts deleted from other web sites, profit, because I do not see evil in a business making a profit. It’s the only reason why people go into business, to make a profit. Many living in our little bubble have forgotten that it is and always has been “profit” that makes our world go around. “If you build it, they will come” is a great movie theme but a poor business plan destined for failure. Without an adequate customer base, a business fails, this is why Magnolia Plaza took so long to open.

Does the developer build the amenities before the homes? Some of them yes, and some of them as homes are being built. For example, the neighborhood pools, postal stations, and gate houses are being built before the first homes are started in an areas. Executive golf courses are also started early in the development of an area, they are however much more time intensive due to the growing cycle of the grass and sometimes are not quite ready to open when the homes start to become available. The village and regional recreation centers area also being built starting in advance of and then at the same time as the homes in an area. Recent examples of this are the Aviary, Homestead, and Ezell Rec Centers, Clifton Cove putting course. For the golf courses the Mickylee and Jubilee courses open shortly after occupancy started in Newell. Franklin Recreation Center is nearing completion and will be opening soon as the homes around it in Newell and Lake Denham start to become occupied. Down in Dabney, the pool and postal station are under construction, before any homes have been built. Surely, this readily disproves the myth that they no longer build the amenities first, the empirical data speaks for itself.

There is however a perception that in recent years amenities were not built first. To understand this perception, one needs to look at how building has progressed over the years here in The Villages. There is no better place for this than the main ballroom of the Rohan Rec Center. Rohan chronicles the growth and milestones of The Villages development over the years with lots of memorabilia, newspaper articles, and advertisement material that has been produced over the year in each of the room. In the main ballroom there are aerial shots of the community dating back to 1984 when the community was first started. Most of the photos not only show when the photo was taken but also the number of dwelling units (D.U.) I’ve included a link to copies of the pictures I took of most of these below – the files are big and very detailed, about 20Mb each, they were shot with a 33MP camera and have a resolution of 3944x7008 or over 3 times the total resolution of a 4K TV, so seeing the details is pretty easy when you blow them up.

Looking at these photos, in every case where homes are being built, there are amenities – golf courses and rec centers – under construction in addition to the homes. In looking at these pictures if one assumes an imaginary line where the newest homes for sale are on one side and the ones under construction on the other. If you were looking for a new home, you’d be looking on the completed side of the line and if you looked over your shoulder you would see completed amenities, that may only be a few months old, but behind you none the less. Those amenities were built before the home you are looking at was built. But just beyond our imaginary line, both homes and amenities are under construction.

Now come back and look at the area again in three months. Our line has advanced revealing new homes and perhaps some new amenities, and still again, newly completed amenities over your shoulder. And so, this line and perception of amenities before homes progressed for about 30 years. When I moved to the Village of Hillsborough nine years ago, Lake Deaton was under construction as was Dunedin and the Manatee Rec Center, but already completed was Big Cypress and Bradenton, both close by and built before my home was built. Over the next few years, I watched the line move forward and the Burnsed, Moyer, and Rohan Rec Center being built as new homes continued to be built, always with the same pattern that I mentioned above. Look carefully at the pictures and you’ll see this happening year after year in each successive picture.

Then something different happened in 2016, the Wildwood Springs development after sitting idly for nearly a decade decided it was time to move forward with building new homes and got the approvals from the city of Wildwood to move ahead. They moved ahead with a new partner to build their homes, The Villages. Wildwood Springs is no more, it is now known as the Villages of Fenney and DeSoto. By early 2017 homes were being built and the Fenney Rec Center was under construction to open in June, new homes previewed in February and March of 2017 in Fenney. Now the mold is broken, let the complaining begin. Things started anew and they had some catching up to do, and they did so quickly, and they re-established that imaginary line that continued to be pushed back with new homes and new amenities.

But with the advent of Fenney came new perceptions. First up was that they were building homes before the amenities. False. They were building as they always had with amenities and homes at the same time, the difference was that now, you had to drive through the construction areas to get to the new homes, something previously not done. The grand scale of the efforts that had gone on beyond the imaginary “Construction Zone, Do Not Enter” line for over two decades was now on full display. Kind of like doing a backstage tour of Disney, the magic is go afterwards. Next was that they were building too fast. Nope. They were and still are building at pretty much the same pace that they have for the last 20 years; once again, the cat was out of the bag, and everyone could finally see what was happening. Adding to their headaches was some clown flying a drone over the new areas giving everyone a bird's eye view of what was happening and posting it on the internet. Despite their many efforts to stop this flow of information, it continues to this day, but that’s all a story for a different post.

Had they not acquired the Wildwood Springs development in a ready to move forward condition, they would have probably moved forward with the work in the Cresswind development that they had acquired, and work would have moved forward as it always had with few seeing past the imaginary line to see what was coming from behind the curtain. You are probably asking yourself where the heck is Cresswind? We now know Cresswind as the villages of Richmond and St. Johns. Early Cresswind drawings even show a path crossing the turnpike at about the same location as the Water Lilly bridge. Remember in my last posting where I said that Brownwood was planned to be surrounded by its primary customers, here you have it, Cresswind. Things went a little out of order because of Wildwood Springs but they are back on track for the most part, moving south now from Newell and Monarch Grove the new lines are being drawn.

For the most part, things are as they always have been, amenities are being built with the homes and communities. A few perceptions of what is happening have changed and the typical wealth of misinformation continues to surface.

Some will say I’m Monday morning quarterbacking this topic, hardly so, I’ve been watching, tracking, and collecting data for the last nine years, and literally have thousands of documents, photos, and maps that I’ve collected over the years on what is happening and how they are building The Villages. It’s easy to see the puzzle pieces come together when you have some many in front of you.

One last thing, going back to the business being built. Take a look at the photos showing the early 2000’s and late 90’s. The huge commercial development on 466 west of Buena Vista didn’t exist even after homes were being built south of 466. Even as late as 2008, much of the building there was mainly the new District offices that they didn’t move out of until about 2015. There was not the plethora of business supporting the new homes in the area for the first few years. Much like things are South of 44 today.

Please, if you have specific questions of me related to actions and plans of Sumter County, I would ask that you direct them to my county email address or call my office at the county and not ask me to address them here. I’ll discuss general topics, some of my opinions, and historical issues here, but always with an eye to being in compliance with the Florida Sunshine Laws and public records keeping requirements.

Link to historical maps of The Villages
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ms9b1nsoys2x67m/AABu0UH-iTFq3kzGXzpfnWm7a?dl=0
WOW - that’s a lot of typing!!!

[Altavia]

The area between 44 and the turnpike is plenty wide for golf courses. It was clearly wide enough to build a championship course there.
They just didn’t put them in. The houses along the turnpike are too close to the turnpike. They could have put several executive courses right next to the turnpike as a buffer from 44 down to 470. Or they could have built executive courses instead of Richmond P&P and Mickylee P&P. An 18 hole P&P takes up almost as much space as a 9 hole executive if not more.

Pretend the Turnpike isn't there.

McNeil will be the main 4 lane thoroughfare south starting at Sawgrass, similar to Morse/Buena Vista.

Megason becomes a two lane 25 mph neighborhood connection south of Sawgrass.

So it makes more sense to develop the courses on the same side of the Turnpike as NcNeil, with all the other development.

[Bill14564]

I was wondering why some of the new Villages do not have neighborhood (adult) pools. In the recent past, when a new Village was started, (think Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, St. Catherine, Citrus Grove), the first things built were the postal station and the adult pool. However, the two newest Villages, Newell and Lake Denham, do not have an adult pool. Why is that? They are certainly large Villages, with around 2,000 homes between them.

Recently, my wife and I went through a few new open houses in Newell (she just likes to do that!). At one of the open houses, I asked the Sales Associate why Newell did not have a neighborhood pool. She told me, "it has not been built yet." When I asked if a pool would be built in Newell, she said, "absolutely." I then pointed to the development map on the kitchen counter, and asked her, "where?"

Obviously, there are no plans for an adult pool in either Newell or Lake Denham. Misinformation like that alluded to by the salesperson could lead unsuspecting or uninformed buyers to expect something that will never come. But...the question remains: why are some Villages being developed without a neighborhood pool?

Just a guess but with all the private pools being put in, even in areas that do have an adult pool, it may have been determined that there isn't enough demand to justify two pools in a neighborhood. I don't have a private pool so I wouldn't feel that way but there is some logic to it.

As for misinformation by the salesperson: This wouldn't be the first time and probably won't be the last.

[rustyp]

wow - that’s a lot of typing!!!


97601

[kayak]

In Georgia there was a big problem with amenities. A developer would develop a swim tennis community sell all the houses and then go out of business and never build the swim or the tennis.
The law was changed and now the amenities have to go in first before any house is sold.

When they told us on the trolley tour of The Villages that the amenities are built before the houses are sold I wondered if they do that voluntarily or if it's actually a requirement in Florida.

[JMintzer]

The area between 44 and the turnpike is plenty wide for golf courses. It was clearly wide enough to build a championship course there.

Then, you'd complain that there were no Championship courses south of 44...

Yes, they fit in Southern Oaks. But they couldn't fit in Southern Oaks AND an exec course...

They just didn’t put them in. The houses along the turnpike are too close to the turnpike. They could have put several executive courses right next to the turnpike as a buffer from 44 down to 470. Or they could have built executive courses instead of Richmond P&P and Mickylee P&P. An 18 hole P&P takes up almost as much space as a 9 hole executive if not more.

Nothing could be further from the truth...

[HoosierPa]

“They used to build the amenities first”, I’ve seen this posted many times on this and other web sites, but is it true, or is it a perception, or is it misinformation? After lots of digging into this, looking at historical photos, and having watched closely the building of The Villages for the last nine years, I can say without a doubt that all three conclusions are in fact, correct.

Before I jump into this topic, we need to clear the air on what is an “Amenity” and what is not. An “Amenity” here in The Villages is a facility, building, or area that is built for the enjoyment of residents or that is provided to improve the quality of the experience of living here in The Villages. These would include pools, executive golf courses, recreation centers, postal stations, various sports courts, pitches, and fields, and the gates and gate houses. What is not an “Amenity” is just about everything else: businesses, grocery stores, restaurants, shopping areas, town squares, championship golf courses, medical facilities, and much much more.

Of all these non-Amenities, only the championship courses and the town squares are built before and during the construction of the surrounding homes. The rest only come after there is a sufficient population and customer base to ensure a profitable business. There I go again, using that word that has had many of my posts deleted from other web sites, profit, because I do not see evil in a business making a profit. It’s the only reason why people go into business, to make a profit. Many living in our little bubble have forgotten that it is and always has been “profit” that makes our world go around. “If you build it, they will come” is a great movie theme but a poor business plan destined for failure. Without an adequate customer base, a business fails, this is why Magnolia Plaza took so long to open.

Does the developer build the amenities before the homes? Some of them yes, and some of them as homes are being built. For example, the neighborhood pools, postal stations, and gate houses are being built before the first homes are started in an areas. Executive golf courses are also started early in the development of an area, they are however much more time intensive due to the growing cycle of the grass and sometimes are not quite ready to open when the homes start to become available. The village and regional recreation centers area also being built starting in advance of and then at the same time as the homes in an area. Recent examples of this are the Aviary, Homestead, and Ezell Rec Centers, Clifton Cove putting course. For the golf courses the Mickylee and Jubilee courses open shortly after occupancy started in Newell. Franklin Recreation Center is nearing completion and will be opening soon as the homes around it in Newell and Lake Denham start to become occupied. Down in Dabney, the pool and postal station are under construction, before any homes have been built. Surely, this readily disproves the myth that they no longer build the amenities first, the empirical data speaks for itself.

There is however a perception that in recent years amenities were not built first. To understand this perception, one needs to look at how building has progressed over the years here in The Villages. There is no better place for this than the main ballroom of the Rohan Rec Center. Rohan chronicles the growth and milestones of The Villages development over the years with lots of memorabilia, newspaper articles, and advertisement material that has been produced over the year in each of the room. In the main ballroom there are aerial shots of the community dating back to 1984 when the community was first started. Most of the photos not only show when the photo was taken but also the number of dwelling units (D.U.) I’ve included a link to copies of the pictures I took of most of these below – the files are big and very detailed, about 20Mb each, they were shot with a 33MP camera and have a resolution of 3944x7008 or over 3 times the total resolution of a 4K TV, so seeing the details is pretty easy when you blow them up.

Looking at these photos, in every case where homes are being built, there are amenities – golf courses and rec centers – under construction in addition to the homes. In looking at these pictures if one assumes an imaginary line where the newest homes for sale are on one side and the ones under construction on the other. If you were looking for a new home, you’d be looking on the completed side of the line and if you looked over your shoulder you would see completed amenities, that may only be a few months old, but behind you none the less. Those amenities were built before the home you are looking at was built. But just beyond our imaginary line, both homes and amenities are under construction.

Now come back and look at the area again in three months. Our line has advanced revealing new homes and perhaps some new amenities, and still again, newly completed amenities over your shoulder. And so, this line and perception of amenities before homes progressed for about 30 years. When I moved to the Village of Hillsborough nine years ago, Lake Deaton was under construction as was Dunedin and the Manatee Rec Center, but already completed was Big Cypress and Bradenton, both close by and built before my home was built. Over the next few years, I watched the line move forward and the Burnsed, Moyer, and Rohan Rec Center being built as new homes continued to be built, always with the same pattern that I mentioned above. Look carefully at the pictures and you’ll see this happening year after year in each successive picture.

Then something different happened in 2016, the Wildwood Springs development after sitting idly for nearly a decade decided it was time to move forward with building new homes and got the approvals from the city of Wildwood to move ahead. They moved ahead with a new partner to build their homes, The Villages. Wildwood Springs is no more, it is now known as the Villages of Fenney and DeSoto. By early 2017 homes were being built and the Fenney Rec Center was under construction to open in June, new homes previewed in February and March of 2017 in Fenney. Now the mold is broken, let the complaining begin. Things started anew and they had some catching up to do, and they did so quickly, and they re-established that imaginary line that continued to be pushed back with new homes and new amenities.

But with the advent of Fenney came new perceptions. First up was that they were building homes before the amenities. False. They were building as they always had with amenities and homes at the same time, the difference was that now, you had to drive through the construction areas to get to the new homes, something previously not done. The grand scale of the efforts that had gone on beyond the imaginary “Construction Zone, Do Not Enter” line for over two decades was now on full display. Kind of like doing a backstage tour of Disney, the magic is go afterwards. Next was that they were building too fast. Nope. They were and still are building at pretty much the same pace that they have for the last 20 years; once again, the cat was out of the bag, and everyone could finally see what was happening. Adding to their headaches was some clown flying a drone over the new areas giving everyone a bird's eye view of what was happening and posting it on the internet. Despite their many efforts to stop this flow of information, it continues to this day, but that’s all a story for a different post.

Had they not acquired the Wildwood Springs development in a ready to move forward condition, they would have probably moved forward with the work in the Cresswind development that they had acquired, and work would have moved forward as it always had with few seeing past the imaginary line to see what was coming from behind the curtain. You are probably asking yourself where the heck is Cresswind? We now know Cresswind as the villages of Richmond and St. Johns. Early Cresswind drawings even show a path crossing the turnpike at about the same location as the Water Lilly bridge. Remember in my last posting where I said that Brownwood was planned to be surrounded by its primary customers, here you have it, Cresswind. Things went a little out of order because of Wildwood Springs but they are back on track for the most part, moving south now from Newell and Monarch Grove the new lines are being drawn.

For the most part, things are as they always have been, amenities are being built with the homes and communities. A few perceptions of what is happening have changed and the typical wealth of misinformation continues to surface.

Some will say I’m Monday morning quarterbacking this topic, hardly so, I’ve been watching, tracking, and collecting data for the last nine years, and literally have thousands of documents, photos, and maps that I’ve collected over the years on what is happening and how they are building The Villages. It’s easy to see the puzzle pieces come together when you have some many in front of you.

One last thing, going back to the business being built. Take a look at the photos showing the early 2000’s and late 90’s. The huge commercial development on 466 west of Buena Vista didn’t exist even after homes were being built south of 466. Even as late as 2008, much of the building there was mainly the new District offices that they didn’t move out of until about 2015. There was not the plethora of business supporting the new homes in the area for the first few years. Much like things are South of 44 today.

Please, if you have specific questions of me related to actions and plans of Sumter County, I would ask that you direct them to my county email address or call my office at the county and not ask me to address them here. I’ll discuss general topics, some of my opinions, and historical issues here, but always with an eye to being in compliance with the Florida Sunshine Laws and public records keeping requirements.

Link to historical maps of The Villages
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ms9b1nsoys2x67m/AABu0UH-iTFq3kzGXzpfnWm7a?dl=0

I got a chuckle from you mentioning the importance of complying with the Sunshine Laws.
We don’t need any more of that drama!

[Rainger99]

An “Amenity” here in The Villages is a facility, building, or area that is built for the enjoyment of residents or that is provided to improve the quality of the experience of living here in The Villages. These would include pools, executive golf courses, recreation centers, postal stations, various sports courts, pitches, and fields, and the gates and gate houses.

I agree with most of your list but I am not sure if I would consider a postal station as an amenity. In my old house, they delivered the mail to my house - I didn't have to drive a mile to pick up my mail. Having to drive a mile to pick up my mail does not seem like an amenity. The only person that seems to benefit is the US Post Office - the mailman doesn't have to deliver the mail to people's houses.

[jedleman]

This data below is copied from a post today under “Palmetto closing” and seems pretty accurate. It points to the fact that amenities are NOT keeping up with the population growth. Those who bought several years ago bought into a lifestyle where a group of golfers could request a tee time with a reasonable window and obtain a tee time. And, they are still selling that lifestyle, but not delivering on the promise. Now, a small group of 4-6 golfers this past month have been unable to obtain a tee time twice. Why? This data tells the story and many of us are very disappointed. So many wonderful things still here, but this situation is not one of them.
************************************************** ********
“The math is simple. There are 36 executive courses north of 44. Divide the population of 100,525 by 36 and you have 2793 for each executive course. Take the south population of about 41,475 (it is higher now) and divide by 2793 resulting in 14.85 courses.
Short 10 executive golf courses.
The championship courses are worse. They are short 12 nines. No room to build them.”

[VApeople]

many of us are very disappointed

Heck, if we were very disappointed with our life in The Villages, we would leave and live somewhere else.

We have been here for 7 years and we think the amenities in The Villages are better than ever. Yeah, the music has gotten much too loud in the Squares, but we solved that problem by just staying away from them.

[coffeebean]

I was wondering why some of the new Villages do not have neighborhood (adult) pools. In the recent past, when a new Village was started, (think Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, St. Catherine, Citrus Grove), the first things built were the postal station and the adult pool. However, the two newest Villages, Newell and Lake Denham, do not have an adult pool. Why is that? They are certainly large Villages, with around 2,000 homes between them.

Recently, my wife and I went through a few new open houses in Newell (she just likes to do that!). At one of the open houses, I asked the Sales Associate why Newell did not have a neighborhood pool. She told me, "it has not been built yet." When I asked if a pool would be built in Newell, she said, "absolutely." I then pointed to the development map on the kitchen counter, and asked her, "where?"

Obviously, there are no plans for an adult pool in either Newell or Lake Denham. Misinformation like that alluded to by the salesperson could lead unsuspecting or uninformed buyers to expect something that will never come. But...the question remains: why are some Villages being developed without a neighborhood pool?

Living between 466 and 466A, I had always thought every villages in this area had an adult (neighborhood) pool. I was very quickly corrected by a couple of posters on this forum and informed that there are a few villages in this neck of the woods that do not have an adult (neighborhood) pool. Don't ask me which ones because I don't recall and don't feel the need to look them up on a map.

[Rainger99]

Yes, they fit in Southern Oaks. But they couldn't fit in Southern Oaks AND an exec course...

If the developer told you he would give you a million dollars if you could come up with a design to put two executive courses (in addition to Southern Oaks) in the area north of the turnpike and south of 44, I bet you would get the money.

You have plenty of room - Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, Cason Hammock, St Johns, Richmond, St Catherine’s, Citrus Grove, Newell, Lake Denham, and Dabney.

They had room for two Pitch & Putts and two Putting Greens - but no executive courses.

[coffeebean]

I agree with most of your list but I am not sure if I would consider a postal station as an amenity. In my old house, they delivered the mail to my house - I didn't have to drive a mile to pick up my mail. Having to drive a mile to pick up my mail does not seem like an amenity. The only person that seems to benefit is the US Post Office - the mailman doesn't have to deliver the mail to people's houses.

Just wondering........how did the postal worker deliver mail to individual homes without mailboxes? When I lived in NJ, I was told I had to have a mailbox for my mail to be delivered. When I removed my mailbox so I could sand and paint it, I purchased a water proof plastic container with an easy open lid and put a big sign on it......"MAIL". It worked for the couple of weeks I didn't have my regular mailbox in use.

[coffeebean]

Heck, if we were very disappointed with our life in The Villages, we would leave and live somewhere else.

We have been here for 7 years and we think the amenities in The Villages are better than ever. Yeah, the music has gotten much too loud in the Squares, but we solved that problem by just staying away from them.

Earplugs work great.

[JMintzer]

If the developer told you he would give you a million dollars if you could come up with a design to put two executive courses (in addition to Southern Oaks) in the area north of the turnpike and south of 44, I bet you would get the money.

You have plenty of room - Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, Cason Hammock, St Johns, Richmond, St Catherine’s, Citrus Grove, Newell, Lake Denham, and Dabney.

They had room for two Pitch & Putts and two Putting Greens - but no executive courses.

No, no, no, no, and no...


Chitty Chatty and Bradford are very narrow. The topography there is not conducive to adding a golf course. If you put one in St Cathrines, it would take up most of the are for houses. AND, it would be right across the street from Southern Oaks. Same with Hawkins and Cason Hammock

St Johns is a narrow strip of land... Same with NewellLake Denham and Dabney...

The only possibility would have been Richmond, but they are already close to the other exec courses and it's divided by wetlands into two parts.

Much of the area south of 44 and east of the turnpike has those same wetlands to deal with.

As I've stated before, if you look at a map of TV, you'll see the land mass north of 44 it much different than the area south of 44 and east of the turnpike.

The new areas that they are developing NOW is a HUGE swath of land on the west side of the turnpike. THAT is where they are putting all of the new courses. It's simple logistics.

I live west of Morse and south of Hillsborough. There is not a single exec course in the area defined by Morse to Buena Vista, Hillsborough to 44... Why is that? It's a huge expanse of land. It's because of the massive preserve and Lake Deaton. Just like the massive preserve bordering everything south of 44 and east of Morse...

If you watch Don Wiley's latest video, he explains this quite simply...

[Bogie Shooter]

I am happy we don't have those ugly mail boxes in front of every house!

[VApeople]

Yeah, the music has gotten much too loud in the Squares, but we solved that problem by just staying away from them.

Earplugs work great.

Staying away from the Squares is easier.

[Goldwingnut]

I agree with most of your list but I am not sure if I would consider a postal station as an amenity. In my old house, they delivered the mail to my house - I didn't have to drive a mile to pick up my mail. Having to drive a mile to pick up my mail does not seem like an amenity. The only person that seems to benefit is the US Post Office - the mailman doesn't have to deliver the mail to people's houses.

I’ll not disagree with you on who benefits most, the postman, but they are amenities. They have long been built with the neighborhood pools and other recreational items at the same location and have been lumped together. In 2016 when slcdd purchased the 266-44 amenities I questioned this same issue because I thought they should belong to the individual cdds. The answer I was given was that they were a convenience item, without them everyone would have to go to the post office. My response was “Really? Why don’t we get to the door delivery like the rest of the country?” I also asked why, as big as it has become, didn’t the villages have its own post office? After a lengthy discussion the answers all boiled down to 3 words - Lady Lake Postmaster.

[Rainger99]

No, no, no, no, and no...


Chitty Chatty and Bradford are very narrow. The topography there is not conducive to adding a golf course. If you put one in St Cathrines, it would take up most of the are for houses. AND, it would be right across the street from Southern Oaks. Same with Hawkins and Cason Hammock

St Johns is a narrow strip of land... Same with NewellLake Denham and Dabney...

The only possibility would have been Richmond, but they are already close to the other exec courses and it's divided by wetlands into two parts.

Much of the area south of 44 and east of the turnpike has those same wetlands to deal with.

As I've stated before, if you look at a map of TV, you'll see the land mass north of 44 it much different than the area south of 44 and east of the turnpike.

The new areas that they are developing NOW is a HUGE swath of land on the west side of the turnpike. THAT is where they are putting all of the new courses. It's simple logistics.

I live west of Morse and south of Hillsborough. There is not a single exec course in the area defined by Morse to Buena Vista, Hillsborough to 44... Why is that? It's a huge expanse of land. It's because of the massive preserve and Lake Deaton. Just like the massive preserve bordering everything south of 44 and east of Morse...

If you watch Don Wiley's latest video, he explains this quite simply...

If the developer really wanted to build the executive courses, I think he could have found a way.

Instead of building golf courses in this area, they built houses. If the developer built houses where volusia, escambia, and okeechobee are, there would be no room for a golf course.

How much more space would it have taken to turn Richmond or Mickylee into executives? Twice as much land?

If you gave me $500,000, I could find the space for 2 executive courses.

[Papa_lecki]

I’ll not disagree with you on who benefits most, the postman, but they are amenities. They have long been built with the neighborhood pools and other recreational items at the same location and have been lumped together. In 2016 when slcdd purchased the 266-44 amenities I questioned this same issue because I thought they should belong to the individual cdds. The answer I was given was that they were a convenience item, without them everyone would have to go to the post office. My response was “Really? Why don’t we get to the door delivery like the rest of the country?” I also asked why, as big as it has become, didn’t the villages have its own post office? After a lengthy discussion the answers all boiled down to 3 words - Lady Lake Postmaster.

The other thing about the centralized mail boxes, in a community like the Villages, it is a social experience getting your mail. The Villages is all about the experiences - and getting your mail, is an experience for many.

[Papa_lecki]

If the developer really wanted to build the executive courses, I think he could have found a way.

Instead of building golf courses in this area, they built houses. If the developer built houses where volusia, escambia, and okeechobee are, there would be no room for a golf course.

How much more space would it have taken to turn Richmond or Mickylee into executives? Twice as much land?

If you gave me $500,000, I could find the space for 2 executive courses.

The developer is literally in the business of building and selling houses, not building golf courses. They need a minimum density of housing - profit is the definition of capitalism.

Plus, they dont need the courses for the water management, there is a lot of wetlands between turnpike and 44

[JMintzer]

If the developer really wanted to build the executive courses, I think he could have found a way.

Instead of building golf courses in this area, they built houses. If the developer built houses where volusia, escambia, and okeechobee are, there would be no room for a golf course.

They are built surrounding the old landfill and under the high tension power lines... No one would buy a house there...

How much more space would it have taken to turn Richmond or Mickylee into executives? Twice as much land?

Once again, it's more than just the land. There are the roads, the turnpike, the wetlands... They all play into where they can build.

If you actually looked at where they built houses in all of the places you listed, you would see (especially NE of the turnpike and east of Morse) that the homes are built on a skinny, long swath of land.

It is simply not feasible to put courses there.

If you actually look at Richmond, you would see that they kept THREE HUGE undeveloped areas of wetlands, and lakes... The houses are split into two relatively small sections, divided nature. You want them to fill that in and build a golf course? Then you would have people screaming that they are destroying nature!

Every time I drive over the Water Lily bridge and go thru Marsh Bend and Fenney, along with Richmond, I'm amazed at what they DIDN'T develop...

Look at the lowlands course. Look at how much land they had to use to fit that course in

St Johns is tiny, and it is bordered by Meggison, wetlands and a MASSIVE lake... Where in god's green earth do you think they could fit in a course there?

There is a HUGE preserve in the middle of Marsh Bend. They had to build everything around it, severely limiting the # of homes they could build.

If you gave me $500,000, I could find the space for 2 executive courses.

You may THINK you could. But you don't have access to the water tables, the soil composition, nor anything else that goes into actually building a housing development...

[JMintzer]

The other thing about the centralized mail boxes, in a community like the Villages, it is a social experience getting your mail. The Villages is all about the experiences - and getting your mail, is an experience for many.

Exactly. When I live in Columbia, MD, we had a central mailbox in the middle of our cul de sac. It was a meeting place and people would hang out there, talking to the neighbors...

[Rainger99]

The developer is literally in the business of building and selling houses, not building golf courses. They need a minimum density of housing - profit is the definition of capitalism.

I think he is the business of building houses and amenities including golf courses. “Free golf for life” was what they advertised!

How many people would have moved here if we didn’t have free golf? And free golf implies that there will be enough holes to support the population. You can’t just build one executive course for a population of 140,000 and say you have free golf.

And if you have 11 villages, I think you have the minimum population density to build a course.

[VApeople]

The Villages is all about the experiences - and getting your mail, is an experience for many.

In Osceola Hills, many people use the mail station for their dogs to crap.

I guess that bothered some people, so in the newer areas like St. Cats and DeLuna, dogs are not allowed in the postal station or in the recreation area.

[Rainger99]

They are built surrounding the old landfill and under the high tension power lines... No one would buy a house there.

That is what they said about houses near the turnpike and the houses near the power lines. Check out Richmond, Newell, and Citrus Grove. The houses sold.

[JMintzer]

That is what they said about houses near the turnpike and the houses near the power lines. Check out Richmond, Newell, and Citrus Grove. The houses sold.

None of them are built on a landfill...

And I didn't say "near" the power lines. Those courses run directly UNDER the power lines...

[Altavia]

If the developer told you he would give you a million dollars if you could come up with a design to put two executive courses (in addition to Southern Oaks) in the area north of the turnpike and south of 44, I bet you would get the money.

You have plenty of room - Chitty Chatty, Bradford, Hawkins, Cason Hammock, St Johns, Richmond, St Catherine’s, Citrus Grove, Newell, Lake Denham, and Dabney.

They had room for two Pitch & Putts and two Putting Greens - but no executive courses.

Are you aware of the courses are being put in on the other side of the Turnpike?

[Rainger99]

None of them are built on a landfill...

And I didn't say "near" the power lines. Those courses run directly UNDER the power lines...

Volusia runs under power lines?? And the other two courses are not directly under the power lines - they are built next to the power lines. I don’t think you can put a course in the right of way. It is true that you have to walk under the lines to get to some holes but the courses are not under the power lines. In Citrus Grove, houses are adjacent to the power lines. I think it is better to build golf courses next to power lines and turnpikes instead of building houses.

And you never told us how much more space it would have taken to turn two 18 hole pitch and putts into executive courses.

[JMintzer]

Volusia runs under power lines?? And the other two courses are not directly under the power lines - they are built next to the power lines. I don’t think you can put a course in the right of way. It is true that you have to walk under the lines to get to some holes but the courses are not under the power lines. In Citrus Grove, houses are adjacent to the power lines. I think it is better to build golf courses next to power lines and turnpikes instead of building houses.

And you never told us how much more space it would have taken to turn two 18 hole pitch and putts into executive courses.

The houses in Citrus Grove are nowhere near as close to the power lines as the holes on Volusia... My buddy lives off of Moyer Loop. His neighbor, across the street backs up to one of the hols on Volusia. You have to got PAST the golf course to get to the power lines... It's a pretty big buffer...

But sure... Keep beating that drum...

And people are already bitchin' about Southern Oaks being built too close to the turnpike. The traffic noise disturbs their concentration...

[golfing eagles]

The houses in Citrus Grove are nowhere near as close to the power lines as the holes on Volusia... My buddy lives off of Moyer Loop. His neighbor, across the street backs up to one of the hols on Volusia. You have to got PAST the golf course to get to the power lines... It's a pretty big buffer...

But sure... Keep beating that drum...

And people are already bitchin' about Southern Oaks being built too close to the turnpike. The traffic noise disturbs their concentration...

How do you expect all the Village golfers to win another green jacket with all the turnpike noise?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

How do you expect all the Village golfers to win another green jacket with all the turnpike noise?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Especially, since most of them ar half deaf anyhow...

Hell, my cursing drowns out any traffic noise in the area...

[coffeebean]

The other thing about the centralized mail boxes, in a community like the Villages, it is a social experience getting your mail. The Villages is all about the experiences - and getting your mail, is an experience for many.

I never cared for gang mailboxes but I have mellowed with age. I actually prefer the gang mailboxes for one reason. They are more secure.

[Papa_lecki]

And people are already bitchin' about Southern Oaks being built too close to the turnpike. The traffic noise disturbs their concentration...
That’s the only reason i play southern oaks - built in excuse. I almost broke 80, but the noise on the turnpike messed up my concentration.

[SusanStCatherine]

We got a cluster mailbox at our new house up north in the early 90s. I was expecting one at the end of my driveway. They said it's in an urban development. Then I called later and asked why my mail didn't arrive until late evening. They said it's a rural delivery route and they try to get the mail there before dark (9pm in the summer). Meanwhile, older houses in the same county get their mail dropped through a slot on their front door and it lands on their living room floor at 10am.

[Laker14]

That’s the only reason i play southern oaks - built in excuse. I almost broke 80, but the noise on the turnpike messed up my concentration.

when the turnpike is off my left shoulder I play a trap-draw, into the wind blast from the semis,
and when it is off my right shoulder I play my kiss-cut-fade for the same reason.

And that, my friends, is how I break 100 on Southern Oaks.

It's really not a problem if you have all the shots.

[JMintzer]

when the turnpike is off my left shoulder I play a trap-draw, into the wind blast from the semis,
and when it is off my right shoulder I play my kiss-cut-fade for the same reason.

And that, my friends, is how I break 100 on Southern Oaks.

It's really not a problem if you have all the shots.

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