Greens fees for select executive course?

[Papa_lecki]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

[fdpaq0580]

We already pay for maintenance. This "green fee for better conditions" is just a toe in the door for green fees at all courses, or the end of free golf. Those who use carts already pay trail fees. If the current landscapers cannot do the job, do what the homeowners do, fire them and get someone else who will do a better job for less.

[Keefelane66]

There should be better oversight of golf course maintenance by Village Admistrator’s. Also an advisory of residence to call attention on conditions. Ambassadors on courses should enforce RULES and managers should back their decisions.

[fdpaq0580]

There should be better oversight of golf course maintenance by Village Admistrator’s. Also an advisory of residence to call attention on conditions. Ambassadors on courses should enforce RULES and managers should back their decisions.

Agree with your statements, but if you voted yes for green fees, I believe you might want to rethink gifting more $ for those who are showing they aren't up to the task. Just my opinion.

[Velvet]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

No, it would contradict the premise these executive courses were built on. We pay for them in our amenities. Either all executive courses are “improved” or none.

[ThirdOfFive]

Not trying to shoot down the idea of finding a way to better maintain the executive courses, but it is fair to point out that these types of discussions seem to happen every year about this time. Time, fewer people on the courses and more rain in the next few months will go a long way toward rectifying the situation.

Nevertheless it is a fact that some of the executive courses seem to be maintained better than others. Rather than selective maintenance, here are some ideas of better overall maintenance of the executive courses, keeping in mind that the cost of just about everything has gone up and course maintenance is no exception:

1. Charge a bit more for trail fees, say 10% more for motorized carts and raise the cost of pull carts from $1 to $2 per cart.
2. Close each course for scheduled maintenance on a regular basis (once every two weeks?)
3. RIGOROUSLY enforce the rule of no unauthorized motorized carts on the course (Seeing people violate that rule is becoming more and more common).
4. Do maintenance as a preventative rather than a restorative. Allowing a course to go downhill to the point where it needs (say) $100,000 in repairs over two weeks while the course is closed is ridiculous if the same amount (or probably much less) spent in routine maintenance on an open course is the other option.
5. Have the “ambassadors’ (as others have suggested) be more than just smile-and-wave guys and have them actually ENFORCE rules. Pushcarts on greens—cigarette butts negligently cast onto the course—unfilled divots—unprepared ball marks on greens—etc. etc., could all be minimized by better rule enforcement.
6. Allow more time between tee times. Even one more minute between tee times, when spread over a year, means significantly less traffic on the courses.

There are most likely a lot of other things that could be done to improve playability and minimize major repairs. Unfortunately the powers-that-be seem all too hesitant to upset the status quo, unless there is absolutely no other choice.

[Bogie Shooter]

Not trying to shoot down the idea of finding a way to better maintain the executive courses, but it is fair to point out that these types of discussions seem to happen every year about this time. Time, fewer people on the courses and more rain in the next few months will go a long way toward rectifying the situation.

Nevertheless it is a fact that some of the executive courses seem to be maintained better than others. Rather than selective maintenance, here are some ideas of better overall maintenance of the executive courses, keeping in mind that the cost of just about everything has gone up and course maintenance is no exception:

1. Charge a bit more for trail fees, say 10% more for motorized carts and raise the cost of pull carts from $1 to $2 per cart.
2. Close each course for scheduled maintenance on a regular basis (once every two weeks?)
3. RIGOROUSLY enforce the rule of no unauthorized motorized carts on the course (Seeing people violate that rule is becoming more and more common).
4. Do maintenance as a preventative rather than a restorative. Allowing a course to go downhill to the point where it needs (say) $100,000 in repairs over two weeks while the course is closed is ridiculous if the same amount (or probably much less) spent in routine maintenance on an open course is the other option.
5. Have the “ambassadors’ (as others have suggested) be more than just smile-and-wave guys and have them actually ENFORCE rules. Pushcarts on greens—cigarette butts negligently cast onto the course—unfilled divots—unprepared ball marks on greens—etc. etc., could all be minimized by better rule enforcement.
6. Allow more time between tee times. Even one more minute between tee times, when spread over a year, means significantly less traffic on the courses.

There are most likely a lot of other things that could be done to improve playability and minimize major repairs. Unfortunately the powers-that-be seem all too hesitant to upset the status quo, unless there is absolutely no other choice.

Here ya go……let us know what the response was.

Mitch Leininger, GCSAA
Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

Tamara Rolle
Administrative Assistant to Executive Golf Maintenance

Dalton Parker
Supervisor of Executive Golf Maintenance

Jack Winters
Supervisor of Executive Golf Maintenance

Contact Us
Executive Golf Maintenance
1026 Canal Street
The Villages, FL 32162
Phone: 352-674-1885
Fax: 352-674-1805

[Keefelane66]

Here ya go……let us know what the response was.

Mitch Leininger, GCSAA
Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

Tamara Rolle
Administrative Assistant to Executive Golf Maintenance

Dalton Parker
Supervisor of Executive Golf Maintenance

Jack Winters
Supervisor of Executive Golf Maintenance

Contact Us
Executive Golf Maintenance
1026 Canal Street
The Villages, FL 32162
Phone: 352-674-1885
Fax: 352-674-1805
Well that’s 4 people getting paid to much for what we’re setting it’s quite obvious they never get out of the office

[Bogie Shooter]

This weeks District Bulletin has info on executive courses.
https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20230330001301

[billethkid]

No!!!!!!!!!!!!

Demand current courses be kept to a better than current standards. Too many of the executive courses are at a laughable unacceptable condition.

We are already paying for that!

___________________________________________

:censored:

[Rainger99]

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.

So you are talking $20 to $25 for 9 holes which are almost all par threes?? That would be $40 to $50 for 18 holes.

You can play the most expensive championship course - Southern Oaks - for $72.50 and the cheapest - Orange Blossom Hills - for $52.50.


https://www.golfthevillages.com/images/Winter2023.pdf

[fdpaq0580]

Well that’s 4 people getting paid to much for what we’re setting it’s quite obvious they never get out of the office

Or, do they ever come in? Old covid protocol. Just check in by phone.

[fdpaq0580]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

"They would be maintained as they are now"? You mean mostly unplayable? Why should we continue to pay at all
for abject failure and continuing decline of our courses? Why should we continue to employ managers who have demonstrated they can't (or won't? ) do the job? What do the big leagues do if the team is not winning? Fire the manager.
And, I am really curious about the origin of this "trial balloon" to see if we all could be tempted to throw money at this to get it fixed. I wouldn't be surprised to find the decline of conditions wasn't allowed to happen as a scheme to make more money, but then I'm a suckered for a good cosiracy.

[RayAmb]

Can’t help but reply ! PLEASE LEAVE YOUR IDEAS ABOUT TAXES AND GOVERNMENT NORTH OF FLORIDA! The Villages have done fine for 30 years and here you go. Give us a break. You have no idea…..

[Papa_lecki]

Can’t help but reply ! PLEASE LEAVE YOUR IDEAS ABOUT TAXES AND GOVERNMENT NORTH OF FLORIDA! The Villages have done fine for 30 years and here you go. Give us a break. You have no idea…..

First of all, I don’t think the operators of the Villages are trolling TOTV to get ideas on how to run things.
Not sure what you’re talking about.

This is the ultimate Free Market Idea.
The current system is very New York/Californiaish. We are paying a government agency a fee (i.e. a tax) and they are taking care of golf for us.

There are hundreds of posts here about bad Executive Golf Conditions. Most suggestions are to complain to the Development Districts and have the government make the courses nicer/more playable.
What happened at Palmetto? Government shut if down and is cleaning it up.

What this suggestion is, if you want GREAT executive conditions, let the free market decide, let the user pay.

The NORTH OF FLORIDA approach is to ask big government to pay.

[Rwirish]

No and no need for further comment!

[Sandy and Ed]

Can’t help but reply ! PLEASE LEAVE YOUR IDEAS ABOUT TAXES AND GOVERNMENT NORTH OF FLORIDA! The Villages have done fine for 30 years and here you go. Give us a break. You have no idea…..
AGREE. Stay out of our wallets and purses. As always, trying to spend OPM.

[ldovermiller]

NO WAY!! We should fire the golf course management and maintenance!! Get qualified INDEPENDENT management/course maintenance firm that cares, has good skill sets that will improve ALL the courses. They currently over cut (shave) the grass, poor
green's care and flat out waste our money. We need an AD HOC committee of resident owners to organize and check how our money is being wasted. It is not a money problem...we are flushed with money! WE ARE BEING HOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crash]

This weeks District Bulletin has info on executive courses.
https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20230330001301

Good info in that article but left out one important issue why the courses are in bad shape, the people who play them. Every cart has a sand bottle less than 10% of them get used. For those who can hit the ball on the green only about 10% fox ball marks. Then let’s include those who think it is ok to drive a cart on the grass and you get an idea on why the grass is in the shape that it is. No matter of maintenance is ever going to make up for that.

[GizmoWhiskers]

There should be better oversight of golf course maintenance by Village Admistrator’s. Also an advisory of residence to call attention on conditions. Ambassadors on courses should enforce RULES and managers should back their decisions.

I wonder how many non-residents are on the courses through out the year not giving a hoot about the wear and tear on the executive courses?

While a resident is supposed to be with their guests is that always enforced?

[tuccillo]

Not true. Guests who are at least 19 can play the executive courses without a resident.

I wonder how many non-residents are on the courses through out the year not giving a hoot about the wear and tear on the executive courses?

While a resident is supposed to be with their guests is that always enforced?

[Ltwise3500]

You said it very well!

[vinricci]

Or they could make the walkers pay their fare share.

[Nacoma]

I’m not sure what or why most of our executive courses are in such bad shape? It’s my understanding that courses in certain counties aren’t allowed to water as often as needed?? Maybe maintenance people would like to do better but aren’t allowed to water as often as they’d like?? Often when you ask the standard excuse for conditions is because the amount of play. To that I say, have you ever played Baseline in Ocala? That course sees an enormous amount of play but is always in wonderful shape compared to our executive courses?? So what gives? Why can’t we do better here? I don’t know everything that needs to happen behind the scenes but it does make me wonder why??

[Rainger99]

Do the people in charge of golf course maintenance (see post #7) ever have public forums where they take questions?

[Marathon Man]

Or they could make the walkers pay their fare share.

They do that now. Fair share is zero.

[donfey]

We already pay for maintenance. This "green fee for better conditions" is just a toe in the door for green fees at all courses, or the end of free golf. Those who use carts already pay trail fees. If the current landscapers cannot do the job, do what the homeowners do, fire them and get someone else who will do a better job for less.

Well said!

[jwilde3rd]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.
That would be an innocent start to an inevitable march to pay to play with minimum course condition improvements. There is plenty of money in the developers purse to pay for maintenance. This is an unjustified price increase. John

[dennisgavin]

Here ya go……let us know what the response was.

Mitch Leininger, GCSAA
Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

Tamara Rolle
Administrative Assistant to Executive Golf Maintenance

Dalton Parker
Supervisor of Executive Golf Maintenance

Jack Winters
Supervisor of Executive Golf Maintenance

Contact Us
Executive Golf Maintenance
1026 Canal Street
The Villages, FL 32162
Phone: 352-674-1885
Fax: 352-674-1805

Why are the courses around Lopez (Briarwod, Walnut Grove etc always in better shape then te rest of the courses? They get as much play based on what I see on the tee time service.

[Bogie Shooter]

Do the people in charge of golf course maintenance (see post #7) ever have public forums where they take questions?

Looks like you can call them anytime.
Public forum……..that would turn into a shouting match!

[Bogie Shooter]

NO WAY!! We should fire the golf course management and maintenance!! Get qualified INDEPENDENT management/course maintenance firm that cares, has good skill sets that will improve ALL the courses. They currently over cut (shave) the grass, poor
green's care and flat out waste our money. We need an AD HOC committee of resident owners to organize and check how our money is being wasted. It is not a money problem...we are flushed with money! WE ARE BEING HOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ad hoc committee……
Your voice is your elected district board member. Have you spoken to him/her?

[Dburesh]

I will be finding some other place to play if they start charging for the executive courses, as we are already paying for those in our amenities!

[Burnie]

Interesting fact: In 2004, the annual trail fee was $128.40. In 2005 it went up to its present amount of $141.24. That's 18 years with no increase. Not that I want to spend more, but I think they've held the line pretty well.

[Steve]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

To answer your two questions: "NO" and "NO". The folks who run the execs collect amenities fees from 138,000 people (~70,000 homes) every month.

My fee is $175.31/month. That's over $11,011,700/month ($132,140,400/year) taken in by the amenities authority. If they can't budget sufficient funds to maintain the courses, the primary draw for The Villages, than somebody needs to be booted out and a better manager installed.

[Steve]

To answer your two questions: "NO" and "NO". The folks who run the execs collect amenities fees from 138,000 people (~70,000 homes) every month.

My fee is $175.31/month. That's over $11,011,700/month ($132,140,400/year) taken in by the amenities authority. If they can't budget sufficient funds to maintain the courses, the primary draw for The Villages, than somebody needs to be booted out and a better manager installed.

Oops! Minor miscalculation. It comes to $12,271,700/month ($147,260,400/year). $15 million here, $15 million there, pretty soon you're talking real money!!!

[pdp07]

Thank you, this is very informative.

[RonRich]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.
This is the driest Winter EVER

[tophcfa]

This weeks District Bulletin has info on executive courses.
https://www.districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMeeting.aspx?id=20230330001301

Interesting read. The basic summary is that two factors, the weather and the amount of player traffic are responsible for the conditions. Given that the weather is a constant, which is out of human control, the amount of player traffic is the only variable which can be controlled. Since the conditions were MUCH better 5 or 6 years ago, before a crap load of new homes were built without a corresponding increase in available golf holes per rooftop, logic would dictate that increased player traffic is the culprit.

Simple solution, build more executive courses until the amount of player traffic is reduced to a level that allows the courses conditions to return to what they used to be 5 or 6 years ago.

[Steve]

Interesting fact: In 2004, the annual trail fee was $128.40. In 2005 it went up to its present amount of $141.24. That's 18 years with no increase. Not that I want to spend more, but I think they've held the line pretty well.

Yes, but check the Amenities Fee. That's what supports the execs. The trail fees are just icing on the cake. When I moved here in 2005 they were $125/month. Now they are $175.31/month. That's a 40.248% increase.

[Steve]

Not trying to shoot down the idea of finding a way to better maintain the executive courses, but it is fair to point out that these types of discussions seem to happen every year about this time. Time, fewer people on the courses and more rain in the next few months will go a long way toward rectifying the situation.

Nevertheless it is a fact that some of the executive courses seem to be maintained better than others. Rather than selective maintenance, here are some ideas of better overall maintenance of the executive courses, keeping in mind that the cost of just about everything has gone up and course maintenance is no exception:

1. Charge a bit more for trail fees, say 10% more for motorized carts and raise the cost of pull carts from $1 to $2 per cart.
2. Close each course for scheduled maintenance on a regular basis (once every two weeks?)
3. RIGOROUSLY enforce the rule of no unauthorized motorized carts on the course (Seeing people violate that rule is becoming more and more common).
4. Do maintenance as a preventative rather than a restorative. Allowing a course to go downhill to the point where it needs (say) $100,000 in repairs over two weeks while the course is closed is ridiculous if the same amount (or probably much less) spent in routine maintenance on an open course is the other option.
5. Have the “ambassadors’ (as others have suggested) be more than just smile-and-wave guys and have them actually ENFORCE rules. Pushcarts on greens—cigarette butts negligently cast onto the course—unfilled divots—unprepared ball marks on greens—etc. etc., could all be minimized by better rule enforcement.
6. Allow more time between tee times. Even one more minute between tee times, when spread over a year, means significantly less traffic on the courses.

There are most likely a lot of other things that could be done to improve playability and minimize major repairs. Unfortunately the powers-that-be seem all too hesitant to upset the status quo, unless there is absolutely no other choice.

I haven't played an Exec in a while but aren't carts supposed to stay on the cart trail except for the occasional Par 4 and the rare Par 5 holes? How do carts wear out the fairways if they aren't driving on them?

[ThirdOfFive]

Interesting fact: In 2004, the annual trail fee was $128.40. In 2005 it went up to its present amount of $141.24. That's 18 years with no increase. Not that I want to spend more, but I think they've held the line pretty well.
Interesting point. I hearken back to a different discussion about amenity fee increases. Numbers-wise it seems like a lot but over the past 20 or so years, when inflation is taken into account, the increase was something like $5 per month in real money. Not outlandish by any means.

Everything is going up. Maybe, rather than castigating the powers-that-be in TV for such increases as there have been, maybe we should be thanking them for holding the line on things as well as they have.

[Steve]

Or they could make the walkers pay their fare share.

Walkers ARE paying their fair share when they pay their Amenities Fees. If you want to pay extra to ride instead of walk, that's up to you. Walker or rider, you are both paying $0 at the course to play golf. You want to ride? Pay the trail fee.

[Bogie Shooter]

I haven't played an Exec in a while but aren't carts supposed to stay on the cart trail except for the occasional Par 4 and the rare Par 5 holes? How do carts wear out the fairways if they aren't driving on them?

But, but, you haven’t played for awhile……..so how can you comment on conditions?

[ThirdOfFive]

I haven't played an Exec in a while but aren't carts supposed to stay on the cart trail except for the occasional Par 4 and the rare Par 5 holes? How do carts wear out the fairways if they aren't driving on them?
As the post pointed out (Item #3), carts ARE being observed on the fairways in disregard of the rules.

[dewilson58]

Result of poll is not surprising.......................I want, but I won't pay.

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[fdpaq0580]

Result of poll is not surprising.......................I want, but I won't pay.

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Not quite that simple. But you know that ----- I would hope.

[fdpaq0580]

But, but, you haven’t played for awhile……..so how can you comment on conditions?

You are forgetting that our golf courses are, when they are properly maintained, beautiful and, even for non-golfers, an inducement to want to live in our lovely community. They are way more than just a place to play "whack-a-ball". They are the major landscaping that provides the beautiful wide open spaces for us all to enjoy. Even if you don't play, they are part of the lifestyle investment we make when we move here.
If your lawn starts going downhill, you will notice it. If your golf course goes downhill, you will notice it. In both cases, your maintenance people should be held accountable and set things right. You don't reward failure or you just buy more failure.
Everyone living in TV has a stake in our courses. Everyone has the right to comment.

[Papa_lecki]

You are forgetting that our golf courses are, when they are properly maintained, beautiful and, even for non-golfers, an inducement to want to live in our lovely community. They are way more than just a place to play "whack-a-ball". They are the major landscaping that provides the beautiful wide open spaces for us all to enjoy. Even if you don't play, they are part of the lifestyle investment we make when we move here.
If your lawn starts going downhill, you will notice it. If your golf course goes downhill, you will notice it. In both cases, your maintenance people should be held accountable and set things right. You don't reward failure or you just buy more failure.
Everyone living in TV has a stake in our courses. Everyone has the right to comment.

The golf courses, even if you never stepped on one, are critical to the water management engineering. - look how most fairways are lower than houses. It keeps insurance losses low.

[Bellavita]

We don’t golf free there are trail fees each year


I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

[Bogie Shooter]

We don’t golf free there are trail fees each year

:what::what:

[augustnotes]

Well Buddy I guess you got your answer.

[Andyhope]

Hopefully NOT

[Papa_lecki]

Well Buddy I guess you got your answer.

Well, actually…..

About 5% said they would pay a green fee for a great executive golf experience.
Remember, not all executives will have a green’s fee, just 4 or 5 in the entire community.

5% of the population (4,000 people), paying $20 once a week or every other week, is in the 7 figures (another $1,000,000 to $4,000,000)
They’re using that money to maintain 45 holes,
Even at $1,000,000 in extra revenue, you can do a lot with an extra $20,000/hole. At the high end, its an extra $80,000 a hole.

[crash]

I haven't played an Exec in a while but aren't carts supposed to stay on the cart trail except for the occasional Par 4 and the rare Par 5 holes? How do carts wear out the fairways if they aren't driving on them?
Because people do drive on them and don’t rake the traps, or fill their divots or repair their ball marks.

[Sandy and Ed]

Interesting read. The basic summary is that two factors, the weather and the amount of player traffic are responsible for the conditions. Given that the weather is a constant, which is out of human control, the amount of player traffic is the only variable which can be controlled. Since the conditions were MUCH better 5 or 6 years ago, before a crap load of new homes were built without a corresponding increase in available golf holes per rooftop, logic would dictate that increased player traffic is the culprit.

Simple solution, build more executive courses until the amount of player traffic is reduced to a level that allows the courses conditions to return to what they used to be 5 or 6 years ago.
Ya gotta stop using simple logic here!! Obviously 100% correct. Population goes up (duh, perhaps more golfers?)

[fdpaq0580]

Well, actually…..

About 5% said they would pay a green fee for a great executive golf experience.
Remember, not all executives will have a green’s fee, just 4 or 5 in the entire community.

5% of the population (4,000 people), paying $20 once a week or every other week, is in the 7 figures (another $1,000,000 to $4,000,000)
They’re using that money to maintain 45 holes,
Even at $1,000,000 in extra revenue, you can do a lot with an extra $20,000/hole. At the high end, its an extra $80,000 a hole.

Well, actually ....
This poll is obviously skewed since it addresses golfers interests primarily and was likely passed over by many non-golfers. Not "5% of the population", just 5% of those who bothered to take the poll on TOTV.
Ÿout $20 per week is $1080.00 per year for a few courses that will (hopefully) be no better than all the courses should be maintained.
And what about the rest of the courses? Do they get left to die now that there is only 4 or 5 courses that matter? And since only 4 or 5 courses will be worth playing, they will become high demand and eventually more expensive, perhaps evolve into a "members only" club?
Meanwhile, since the rest have been allowed to go to pot, might as well tear them out and fill the area with homes.
I hate to say it, but this whole thing, with "well actually" hints that the decision might have already been made and the "pole" may have merely been a gage of how hard it is going to be to shove it down the throats of the over 95% who said NO.

[tuccillo]

The Developer puts in the amenities and then eventually sells them to the CDDs. About half of the amenities fee goes to paying off the purchase of the amenities.

To answer your two questions: "NO" and "NO". The folks who run the execs collect amenities fees from 138,000 people (~70,000 homes) every month.

My fee is $175.31/month. That's over $11,011,700/month ($132,140,400/year) taken in by the amenities authority. If they can't budget sufficient funds to maintain the courses, the primary draw for The Villages, than somebody needs to be booted out and a better manager installed.

[Bogie Shooter]

The Developer puts in the amenities and then eventually sells them to the CDDs. About half of the amenities fee goes to paying off the purchase of the amenities.

Isn’t paying for those amenities bonds a part of our annual non-ad valorem assessment,
not part of monthly fee?

[ThirdOfFive]

Well, actually…..

About 5% said they would pay a green fee for a great executive golf experience.
Remember, not all executives will have a green’s fee, just 4 or 5 in the entire community.

5% of the population (4,000 people), paying $20 once a week or every other week, is in the 7 figures (another $1,000,000 to $4,000,000)
They’re using that money to maintain 45 holes,
Even at $1,000,000 in extra revenue, you can do a lot with an extra $20,000/hole. At the high end, its an extra $80,000 a hole.
The most dangerous step onto a slippery slope is the first one.

If the powers-that-be can justify green fees for “four or five” executive courses, what is to prevent them from justifying green fees for four or five. MORE executive courses in, say, three years?

[drcar]

Not trying to shoot down the idea of finding a way to better maintain the executive courses, but it is fair to point out that these types of discussions seem to happen every year about this time. Time, fewer people on the courses and more rain in the next few months will go a long way toward rectifying the situation.

Nevertheless it is a fact that some of the executive courses seem to be maintained better than others. Rather than selective maintenance, here are some ideas of better overall maintenance of the executive courses, keeping in mind that the cost of just about everything has gone up and course maintenance is no exception:

1. Charge a bit more for trail fees, say 10% more for motorized carts and raise the cost of pull carts from $1 to $2 per cart.
2. Close each course for scheduled maintenance on a regular basis (once every two weeks?)
3. RIGOROUSLY enforce the rule of no unauthorized motorized carts on the course (Seeing people violate that rule is becoming more and more common).
4. Do maintenance as a preventative rather than a restorative. Allowing a course to go downhill to the point where it needs (say) $100,000 in repairs over two weeks while the course is closed is ridiculous if the same amount (or probably much less) spent in routine maintenance on an open course is the other option.
5. Have the “ambassadors’ (as others have suggested) be more than just smile-and-wave guys and have them actually ENFORCE rules. Pushcarts on greens—cigarette butts negligently cast onto the course—unfilled divots—unprepared ball marks on greens—etc. etc., could all be minimized by better rule enforcement.
6. Allow more time between tee times. Even one more minute between tee times, when spread over a year, means significantly less traffic on the courses.

There are most likely a lot of other things that could be done to improve playability and minimize major repairs. Unfortunately the powers-that-be seem all too hesitant to upset the status quo, unless there is absolutely no other choice.

Some good ideas, BUT more time between tee times would create LESS tee times. People are already complaining about lack of tee times!

[tuccillo]

No.

What is the Difference Between Amenity Fees and Maintenance Fees? Amenity Fees are collected with the
monthly utility bills to fund expenses (including operations, maintenance, new recreation facilities and payment of bonds to purchase the recreation facilities) in the Recreation Amenities Division (RAD) Budget (north of CR 466) and the Sumter Landing Amenities Division (SLAD) Budget (south of CR 466.) These budgets are administered by the VCCDD/AAC and SLCDD/ PWAC. Amenity Fees also pay for such amenity services such as Community Watch (patrols,gates, etc.) Postal facilities, Public Safety facilities (fire stations), and Administration (District staff and facilities.)
Non Ad-valorem Maintenance Assessments are paid annually with the property owners’ county property taxes, and are set annually by each Community Development District (CDD) based on budgetary needs. Annual maintenance budgets are established and managed by each CDD to pay for routine maintenance items such as villa roads (all roads in CDD 4), flowers, landscaping, etc.. The annual maintenance fees vary from CDD to CDD. In addition, a percentage of each CDD’s (5-11) are allocated to PWAC for identified shared infrastructure maintenance, such as multi-modal paths. Each CDD 1-4 pays individually for all maintenance expenses.

Isn’t paying for those amenities bonds a part of our annual non-ad valorem assessment,
not part of monthly fee?

[yankygrl]

The Developer puts in the amenities and then eventually sells them to the CDDs. About half of the amenities fee goes to paying off the purchase of the amenities.
I really think the developer is “sandbagging” the number of homes and population. I’ve lived here almost 13 years and the number of residents has supposedly gone up only 10,000? Find that hard to believe with all the building south off 466A, 44, into Fruitland Park and now more discussion of increased building in Lake County.

[tuccillo]

During the last 10 years, the Developer has built approximately 2500 to 4000 new homes each year. The actual number of homes built each year is easily found. If we assume the lower range then we are talking about 50,000 new residents in the last 10 years. Some of those are obviously not full time residents. The Developer has never been shy about touting the fact that The Villages is one of the fastest growing areas of the country. I don't know where you got a figure of 10,000 from.

I really think the developer is “sandbagging” the number of homes and population. I’ve lived here almost 13 years and the number of residents has supposedly gone up only 10,000? Find that hard to believe with all the building south off 466A, 44, into Fruitland Park and now more discussion of increased building in Lake County.

[ThirdOfFive]

Some good ideas, BUT more time between tee times would create LESS tee times. People are already complaining about lack of tee times!
I agree. And like many others I find that obtaining tee times, especially during high ‘bird season, to be extremely frustrating at times.

But realistically in my opinion the causes of poor executive course conditions, aside from poor maintenance which seems to be a common issue, are heavy traffic, players not following rules regarding course access, and failure to engage in common-sense actions such as filling divots, raking traps and repairing ball marks. The first issue can only be controlled by limiting access, and stretching tee times a bit seems to be a good, rather innocuous way of accomplishing that. The two latter ones of course can be solved by course personnel if they really decide to do it, which to date they seem extremely reluctant to do.

In essence there is no one answer. Even far more rigorous course upkeep would be negated in part by careless and/or destructive players. In any case it is not going to be an overnight fix and it’s a given that some hackles are going to be raised by whatever measures are taken.

[coleprice]

The Village's Executive Golf Course management must do a better job of establishing priorities so that their current budget and personnel maintain better conditions. The golfers have identified the things that must be better cared for, so Villages Management knows what to focus on. I've witnessed that the money that they spend renovating golf courses is spent very frivolously. Rather than shutting down a golf course for many months to completely rebuild Tees and Greens, they should close the course for 1 month to renovate the existing course, plus make limited changes that can be completed within that time span at a very limited budget. This is not a budget issue . . . Throwing more money at something doesn't improve it.

[Bogie Shooter]

The Village's Executive Golf Course management must do a better job of establishing priorities so that their current budget and personnel maintain better conditions. The golfers have identified the things that must be better cared for, so Villages Management knows what to focus on. I've witnessed that the money that they spend renovating golf courses is spent very frivolously. Rather than shutting down a golf course for many months to completely rebuild Tees and Greens, they should close the course for 1 month to renovate the existing course, plus make limited changes that can be completed within that time span at a very limited budget. This is not a budget issue . . . Throwing more money at something doesn't improve it.

See post #7.
Give then a call……let us know their response.

[Pairadocs]

There should be better oversight of golf course maintenance by Village Administrators. Also an advisory of residence to call attention on conditions. Ambassadors on courses should enforce RULES and managers should back their decisions.

When I reported some really shocking, deliberate, destruction to a green and to a sand trap, and after watching countless times while people ENTERED and EXITED a trap at the highest level (actually the most awkward way it could be done), and watched people DRAG a metal flag pole over the putting surface, and then STEP on the edge of the hole, I decided to VERY politely, calmly, and respectfully report to the golf offices that I have observed "ambassadors" just sit on their carts and watch destruction of the courses and never issue a single word of warning. People who, if they committed the same "offenses" at their home clubs, would receive a stern warning, and ultimately a 30 day suspension of memberships rights even though a paid member, don't even get a verbal warning here (maybe some do but I've been here a long time now and never seen anyone taken to task.. even when parking a cart ON the green !) Here they do NOT appreciate any reporting, even if done in a very respectful way to be helpful. I was told "THAT is exactly why we have "ambassadors" and NOT "marshals", we want our guests to be welcomed, not monitored." Oh, well, okay, NOW I understand, people are paid, I know, not very well paid, but paid, to be pleasant and hand out water, a VERY nice thing, but not to prevent intention destruction and correct clueless golfers ? How hard would it be to explain to a "golfer", a trap is NOT exited by putting a foot on the ledge and bringing the entire thing down, turf and sand ? How hard is it to explain, "PLEASE, when removing a pin, do NOT step on the edge of the cup" ?

[Pairadocs]

I will be finding some other place to play if they start charging for the executive courses, as we are already paying for those in our amenities!

Any yet, you will still have to pay your amenities AND have to pay at the "other place" you find, and (probably) even have to rent a cart there (wherever you decide to go ) since it is probably will not allow you to take your own cart... so it's not a "win-win", it's a "lose-lose". But I guess it is possible, there are thousands who live here and have never played a round of golf, so apparently most feel their amenity fees are a value just for the recreation buildings, pools, flower gardens, pickle-ball courts, etc. etc. etc. Still, I don't see an additional charge coming for access to, or upkeep on, the executive length courses ! I HOPE I am right in this "guess" !

[Pairadocs]

Interesting read. The basic summary is that two factors, the weather and the amount of player traffic are responsible for the conditions. Given that the weather is a constant, which is out of human control, the amount of player traffic is the only variable which can be controlled. Since the conditions were MUCH better 5 or 6 years ago, before a crap load of new homes were built without a corresponding increase in available golf holes per rooftop, logic would dictate that increased player traffic is the culprit.

Simple solution, build more executive courses until the amount of player traffic is reduced to a level that allows the courses conditions to return to what they used to be 5 or 6 years ago.

Shame on you... you KNOW that is way too logical, and, if I might add, not nearly as PROFITABLE as building more homes and fewer golf courses. Come to think of it, if someone built a small community, and offered a nice community pool for the residents, would the profit plan include building a second pool when the first became constantly crowded as the community gained more and more residents ? A LOT of people move here just "assuming" a LOT of things, I am one of them, but "assumptions" can be dangerously disappointing !

[JMintzer]

Shame on you... you KNOW that is way too logical, and, if I might add, not nearly as PROFITABLE as building more homes and fewer golf courses. Come to think of it, if someone built a small community, and offered a nice community pool for the residents, would the profit plan include building a second pool when the first became constantly crowded as the community gained more and more residents ? A LOT of people move here just "assuming" a LOT of things, I am one of them, but "assumptions" can be dangerously disappointing !

Is one of the thing's you're assuming is that they're not building any more golf courses?

Watch GoldWing Nut's latest video. He shows the development south of 44 just 2 1/2 years ago compared to today. Southern Oaks was barely started. The Pitch & Putt and Putting course were just a pipe dream.

They are currently farther along on the new Executive and Championship courses on the far side of the Southern Oaks bridge, with more being planned...

[Pairadocs]

This is the driest Winter EVER

Not claiming otherwise, but, according to some websites with statistical data on Florida weather, 2010 was the driest ever recorded. Then in 2011, the 80 year record for driest winter season was finally broken, and still stands today. Don't know who is "right", but certainly agree this winter is at least one of the driest this native Floridian can remember ! And 2010 and 2011, being back to back record droughts, was a killer period, that I do remember well !

[Papa_lecki]

I was told "THAT is exactly why we have "ambassadors" and NOT "marshals", we want our guests to be welcomed, not monitored." Oh, well, okay, NOW I understand, people are paid, I know, not very well paid, but paid, to be pleasant and hand out water, a VERY nice thing, but not to prevent intention destruction and correct clueless golfers ?

I was at LSL last week for some band.

I noticed how the event staff are very firm about keeping paths open, moving people in/out of the square. Most of it is for safety, but they enforce the rules.
I wondered why the ambassadors cant enforce the rules on the golf courses?
If I am considering buying a home here, I would appreciate it if the ambassador had pride in the course and corrected something I did.

[MSchad]

The Village's Executive Golf Course management must do a better job of establishing priorities so that their current budget and personnel maintain better conditions. The golfers have identified the things that must be better cared for, so Villages Management knows what to focus on. I've witnessed that the money that they spend renovating golf courses is spent very frivolously. Rather than shutting down a golf course for many months to completely rebuild Tees and Greens, they should close the course for 1 month to renovate the existing course, plus make limited changes that can be completed within that time span at a very limited budget. This is not a budget issue . . . Throwing more money at something doesn't improve it.
Wait for the aeration schedules to start up. You’ll again “read” how golfers appreciate (bitch) about this necessary maintenance to try and keep these courses up. I see very few people taking care of our exec courses like they did their home courses. The tee boxes are full of gouges, greens covers in unrepaired ball marks. Fill a divot or two, repair your ball marks. If just 1/2 the people would fix their divot/ball mark plus one more there wouldn’t be any unrepaired left and these courses would stay in much better shape.

[M2inOR]

Well, it took 4+ pages of comments to finally recognize that golfers are part of the problem: tearing up the tee boxes, driving on the fairways unnecessarily, not repairing ball marks on greens, and not raking the sand traps properly.

The trail fees aren't for walkers. They're for those driving carts. Amenity fees take care of course maintenance.

Discourteous golfers and the drought hurt the course the most, as well as workers not doing their jobs properly.

Assess points to the bad golfers. ������

[R.G. Gill]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

Absolutely NOT !!!! That’s what’s wrong these days. Everyone seems to believe that throwing more money solves all problems. It will be just like our Federal Tax system that we seem to be paying more and more for sub standard services. The courses that have issues will still have issues and Tee time availability will not get any better. Common sense.

[fdpaq0580]

I was at LSL last week for some band.

I noticed how the event staff are very firm about keeping paths open, moving people in/out of the square. Most of it is for safety, but they enforce the rules.
I wondered why the ambassadors cant enforce the rules on the golf courses?
If I am considering buying a home here, I would appreciate it if the ambassador had pride in the course and corrected something I did.

One "ambassador " to reprimand 4, possibly obnoxious and confrontational golfers. Gee, what could possibly go wrong or intimidate the poor ambassador Maybe if they worked in pairs with one driving and the second videoing improper behavior and interactions, with the super on the hot line for immediate back up. Citations handed out to record warnings. Third citation, banned for 1 month from all Villages courses. Fourth citation, banned for 1 year. Fifth citation, take up another game, sell your clubs. You are done golfing in TV.
Dump the title Ambassador in favor of Course Officers, and give them some authority. If the miscreants are aware that they are going to be held accountable, be prepared to back it up and be prepared to make a few examples of a few idiots before you get proper decorum on the course.

[wlasowicz]

I as a owner of a rental would like to see a increase non resident/lifestyle passes Everything else has gone up. I have my tenants pay for this if they want one. After all snowbirds increase the demand on the services in the high season. I rather see this first before any more increases in my amenity fee which is $40 more a month than when I bought the place 6 years ago

[fdpaq0580]

I know this post will be crucified…..

But, if the districts picked ONE executive in each “area” (i.e. north of 466; 466 to 466A; 466a to 44, south of 44) and charged $20 or $25 a round, BUT the courses get an extra level of maintenance, basically, they are awesome courses.
Maybe tee times are spaced out an extra minute or two.

Would you support it? Would you pay to play that course?

You still have the others you pay for the trail fee. They would be maintained as they are now, some good some bad. They may not be the most interesting courses, but the conditions would be REALLY good.

You realize you are asking people to give up several of the current courses we all can play (probably the best/favorites) so a select few can create a "private, members only type "Club".
How about, if you want a private club, go build a new one or pony up the bucks for the Championship Clubs instead of trying to steal one of our current selection. If the maintenance people are even capable of making a course "REALLY good", then that is the way all our courses should be now, especially the Champs. This question is a money grab and an effort to disenfrachise (aka; ROB) the majority of Villages home owners for a select few. SHAME!

[Pairadocs]

Not trying to shoot down the idea of finding a way to better maintain the executive courses, but it is fair to point out that these types of discussions seem to happen every year about this time. Time, fewer people on the courses and more rain in the next few months will go a long way toward rectifying the situation.

Nevertheless it is a fact that some of the executive courses seem to be maintained better than others. Rather than selective maintenance, here are some ideas of better overall maintenance of the executive courses, keeping in mind that the cost of just about everything has gone up and course maintenance is no exception:

1. Charge a bit more for trail fees, say 10% more for motorized carts and raise the cost of pull carts from $1 to $2 per cart.
2. Close each course for scheduled maintenance on a regular basis (once every two weeks?)
3. RIGOROUSLY enforce the rule of no unauthorized motorized carts on the course (Seeing people violate that rule is becoming more and more common).
4. Do maintenance as a preventative rather than a restorative. Allowing a course to go downhill to the point where it needs (say) $100,000 in repairs over two weeks while the course is closed is ridiculous if the same amount (or probably much less) spent in routine maintenance on an open course is the other option.
5. Have the “ambassadors’ (as others have suggested) be more than just smile-and-wave guys and have them actually ENFORCE rules. Pushcarts on greens—cigarette butts negligently cast onto the course—unfilled divots—unprepared ball marks on greens—etc. etc., could all be minimized by better rule enforcement.
6. Allow more time between tee times. Even one more minute between tee times, when spread over a year, means significantly less traffic on the courses.

There are most likely a lot of other things that could be done to improve play-ability and minimize major repairs. Unfortunately the powers-that-be seem all too hesitant to upset the status quo, unless there is absolutely no other choice.

I completely agree with most everything you mentioned; there is so much more that could be done, even a a drought. But I do believe many, if not most, residents do not understand the entire underlying philosophy of "free" (which we know is not true of course) golf. Those we know on every course we have ever played as "marshals", are not called "marshals" here because they are NOT intended to enforce anything. They are as they tell you, "ambassadors", people don't seem to understand this was a PLANNED, deliberate, decision on the part of the Villages. It is a marketing tool. Everyone knows the thousands who have never played golf, are not even vaguely aware of the long history of etiquette and courtesy associated with the game. Here people REGULARLY step in the path of another's putt, they enter and leave a trap at the HIGHEST, not lowest, point, and do with rakes anything they wish. Admonishing, correcting, or reporting such individuals has never been in the "plan". Yes, it was shocking, really SHOCKING to us in the first couple years, but I don't believe we are exceptional. Just as so many do not realized this is not a private gated community, or that there are very likely to be bright lights and loud music in a number of residential areas (including the high school games and band practice), the same applies to the courses. This is not the "country club" community many envisioned, the one where you get a polite letter that you were observed on ____ date parking a cart in an illegal manner near the apron, or observed dragging a metal flag pole across the green when removing it. You do not get two such letters in one year here and have your golfing privileges removed. Some have said, "no one one cares", that's really not true either. We care, so many who comment on here care, but "caring" only refers to the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY of each of us. Many (of course not all), have no idea, as I mentioned, the etiquette of golf, and I personally think they do not because the have no interest in learning it. They just retire, go buy some clubs, a have fun. Again, NOT all, but I don't think it is likely to change mostly due to the POLICY of the villages that views "free golf" as a publicity campaign that has worked well for it's entire history. People who know nothing about golf are encouraged to "have at it", play, "just have some fun". Our single friend from the North East came to visit. She made arrangements to come back for a "life styles" stay. A city girl through and through, no interest in golf. Her sales rep. showing her around arranged golf times for her, and, personally brought her some clubs at her accommodation during her "lifestyles" tour, and over her protests, told her "just get out there and have fun, you'll have a good time and meet nice people, don't worry about not knowing how to play, you'll catch on, and (he added), it doesn't matter, just have a good time. Of course she told us how she did surprise herself hitting some balls that "actually flew" as she put it, but she also told us about all the holes (as she called them) she made. She had NO IDEA they are called divots, or that you are EXPECTED to repair them with a special mix. How could she know. I relate this just as one personal experience first hand of a good friend, but multiply this by the thousands who visit, vacation, and live here. I also have friends who make it a point to take all their NON golfer visitors play when they are here. I am NOT condemning that, it the right we all have, and many love to take their friends and family to do something they have never tired. I simply make these comments so people better understand why these courses are so poor, it's not all due to poor grounds keepers or even dry conditions, and all the suggestions above WOULD HELP. but until the development's BASIC PHILOSOPHY of using golf a a marketing tool changes, the conditions of the courses probably won't change a great deal. Actually, we could probably save a great deal of money by simply not having "ambassadors" at all ! ? But, with this age population, good to have some one with water, watching for signs of distress or mechanical problems with carts, so..... ! ?

[SullyP]

No, would not support it.

[NYMAN]

and the villages are not totally to blame in that regard, how about the people who play those courses they share some of the responsibility, when I learned the game I was taught repair DIVOTS, repai BALL MARKS and Rakethe traps when you are done!!!!

[fdpaq0580]

and the villages are not totally to blame in that regard, how about the people who play those courses they share some of the responsibility, when I learned the game I was taught repair DIVOTS, repai BALL MARKS and Rakethe traps when you are done!!!!

Me too. But I recall walking the course as a group and passing along and reinforcing the niceties, courtesies and course conduct that went with the game. Reminders to companions to fix divots or rake bunkers. The game used to be much more relaxed and congenial.
Now, it's hurry, hurry up, rush-rush, gotta stay ahead of the group behind, push the group ahead. If you can't keep up, get out of the way. No wonder newbies don't learn golf etiquette. Nobody has the time or desire to instruct the new kids. Only complain when they fail to keep up.
Ah. The good old days.

[kbarber044]

I agree with the pull cart fee should go up - we are talking about conditions of the courses - and not one pull cart has a sand bottle on them - to replace any divots they may make - yet they pay no fee because they are walking

[miadford@gmail.com]

No. I already pay a large monthly fee, no I will not pay more to play executive courses. It is ridiculous what they charge to play the championship courses as it is.

[Pairadocs]

One "ambassador " to reprimand 4, possibly obnoxious and confrontational golfers. Gee, what could possibly go wrong or intimidate the poor ambassador Maybe if they worked in pairs with one driving and the second videoing improper behavior and interactions, with the super on the hot line for immediate back up. Citations handed out to record warnings. Third citation, banned for 1 month from all Villages courses. Fourth citation, banned for 1 year. Fifth citation, take up another game, sell your clubs. You are done golfing in TV.
Dump the title Ambassador in favor of Course Officers, and give them some authority. If the miscreants are aware that they are going to be held accountable, be prepared to back it up and be prepared to make a few examples of a few idiots before you get proper decorum on the course.

Not being contrary on purpose, but I just think none of that will happen because it is not in line with the deep psychology of the "business" end of the villages. Those suggestions would more closely reflect a situation where the priority is the residents, not the business aspects. In an average city, town, or villages, this changes with the WISHES of the residents. This is a completely different configuration. Again, not saying your suggestion that the "ambassadors" work in pairs for their own security is worthless, not at all, but I'd like to point out that while people can be very confrontational (and/or very drunk), the marshal's at our former country club, and the marshals on our local PUBLIC courses never worked in pairs, and yes, they did encounter some "entitled" country club members (as in Groundhog Day and comic films), and often belligerent drunks on public courses, never seemed to have two marshals ! ? The marshal is the marshal, that was it. But so much is needed here and just marshals alone as a first step would save a ton of $$$.

[Pairadocs]

Not quite that simple. But you know that ----- I would hope.

Definitely not that simple, I agree. Did most expect people already paying for something would welcome additional payment. I anticipated people would not crave that, but you never know.

[Pairadocs]

:what::what:

"What" is right ? Definitely puzzling answer. Perhaps some don't realize it is an amenity, as in "amenity fee" ? Don't know, but agree with your "what what" !

[Pairadocs]

I will be finding some other place to play if they start charging for the executive courses, as we are already paying for those in our amenities!

One person on here has the line from Tom Petty about "most things I worry about never happen anyway" applies to this. Don't think it's worth worrying about, not likely to happen. Amenity fees rising, perhaps, but choosing a few exec's to tack on additional charge, doubt it, but who knows. Could become tiered, you never know. You pay so much for base amenity rate, then can add $20 a month for unlimited choice of exec's which would include the "well cared for ones", you never know, just doubt it ! As far as continuing to pay your amenity fees and then playing the public courses outside the villages, you'd have to do a LOT of pencil pushing to make sure that would pay off for you... there is travel (fuel is expensive), time, maybe even purchasing snacks or lunch compared to having your own from home, then you have to figure in cart rental if you use motorized cart, just a lot to figure before saying you'd switch and play outside courses if they begin an extra change. But then, perhaps you don't play often, might be able to justify it, but hard to do since no matter what, you still have to pay monthly amenity fees ! A lot to think about before would decide something like that.

[Pairadocs]

Interesting read. The basic summary is that two factors, the weather and the amount of player traffic are responsible for the conditions. Given that the weather is a constant, which is out of human control, the amount of player traffic is the only variable which can be controlled. Since the conditions were MUCH better 5 or 6 years ago, before a crap load of new homes were built without a corresponding increase in available golf holes per rooftop, logic would dictate that increased player traffic is the culprit.

Simple solution, build more executive courses until the amount of player traffic is reduced to a level that allows the courses conditions to return to what they used to be 5 or 6 years ago.

True in some situations, but this is a BUSINESS, that is the point. I hope this is a logical analogy: if you run a restaurant and make a decision to serve just a little less soda and a little more ice per drink, and people just keep coming, business is not only steady, but increases year over year. So you consider this, and instruct staff to use a little more ice and a little less soda, or let's say, you decide to cut your french fries (which are legendary all over your area) by just 6 fries per order, but they are so good, so well known, that your business continues to grow by epic proportions, would you actually make a decision to INCREASE the size of an order or your "legendary" fries, or go back to serving MORE soda and less ice, of course not, it's your BUSINESS, it is not the same as just asking your friends over for your excellent fries so you give them heaping amounts ! When people stop coming, when homes don't sell very fast, and when word gets around the entire nation that "that place, The Villages that's so "famous" for "free" golf, is not fee at all of course, how could it be ? But golfers and non golfers alike pay the freight for the golf courses, but the golf courses are little more than cow pastures, complete with the same kinds of weeks, THEN, a smart business person changes the business plan !

[Pairadocs]

Because people do drive on them and don’t rake the traps, or fill their divots or repair their ball marks.

And we pay "good will ambassadors", not marshal's who tell people (politely of course), to keep their carts ON the path, and NEVER ever explain to people who are ignorant of etiquette, how to use the 90 degree rule if they are incapable to walking to their ball in the fairway, and so on, many many things "could" be done to help. Never happen !

[Emkay56]

Guests already pay $15 so they should be able to keep them in better shape already. Why have I heard that the ones around Lopez up north are in great shape? Must be the person/persons that do maintenance on those courses!

[tuccillo]

Approximately half of the amenities fee goes to pay off the purchase of the amenities from the Developer. All of that money is not available for maintenance.


To answer your two questions: "NO" and "NO". The folks who run the execs collect amenities fees from 138,000 people (~70,000 homes) every month.

My fee is $175.31/month. That's over $11,011,700/month ($132,140,400/year) taken in by the amenities authority. If they can't budget sufficient funds to maintain the courses, the primary draw for The Villages, than somebody needs to be booted out and a better manager installed.

[fdpaq0580]

Approximately half of the amenities fee goes to pay off the purchase of the amenities from the Developer. All of that money is not available for maintenance.

Still a lot of money left in the pot. That isn't the problem.

As miraculous as it may seem, some regular and experienced golfers do report good conditions at some of the courses. Why only at some? Conditions should be all good if mgmt/supervision have their finger on the pulse of maintenance. Less than good at any course should be the result of a plague of locusts. An individual case, not the general condition for all or most courses.
Mgmt has failed! Maintenance has failed. Time sweep out the office.

[tuccillo]

I was not commenting on the condition of the courses. I was not commenting on whether there is sufficient money available to maintain the courses. I have no experience in golf course management. I can only remember one poster on this forum who has such experience. My comment was in response to a post about how much of the amenities money is available for maintenance. Dissatisfaction with the conditions of the courses would be best expressed to the CDD management instead of this forum.

Still a lot of money left in the pot. That isn't the problem.

As miraculous as it may seem, some regular and experienced golfers do report good conditions at some of the courses. Why only at some? Conditions should be all good if mgmt/supervision have their finger on the pulse of maintenance. Less than good at any course should be the result of a plague of locusts. An individual case, not the general condition for all or most courses.
Mgmt has failed! Maintenance has failed. Time sweep out the office.

[conman5652@aol.com]

Let it go.

[justjim]

Just a “bad” idea…

[Andyhope]

No way! No way!

[eastmand411]

I would propose since many of us enjoy the Executive Golf Courses, we take a different approach to supporting the greens keepers. Instead of raising rates, no one wants that, why don't we ask The Villages to place some Greens Divot Repair tools on the green and we can help, after all, the reason the greens are in bad shape is because many of us are not repairing the ball mark on greens, I may be guilty as well on occasion. Perhaps if TV buys enough for 4 courses and distributes them to different courses, we all can pitch in and fix the issue. As it is, these courses are over played and until we find a way to help resolve the issue, no additional fee or separation of tee times is going to fix the issue. I think it is better to take a Root Cause analysis approach to the issue and we, the ones that see the issue fix the issue. Open to suggestion, but before I get a snarky response, let's remember, the people that are causing the issue are not the ones who are going to fix the issue, it's the old 80/20 rule, 80% cause the problem and 20% fix the problem. Lastly, I agree with some of the comments about the Ambassador, but they should be enforcing speed of play and other issues and we all should be good patrons and fix the greens.

[Lottoguy]

The courses up north of 466 are in great shape. Perhaps the problem is some people (Greenskeeper) at some locations do NOT know how to do their job?

[fdpaq0580]

The courses up north of 466 are in great shape. Perhaps the problem is some people (Greenskeeper) at some locations do NOT know how to do their job?

More than likely.

[DavidK]

I’m not sure what or why most of our executive courses are in such bad shape? It’s my understanding that courses in certain counties aren’t allowed to water as often as needed?? Maybe maintenance people would like to do better but aren’t allowed to water as often as they’d like?? Often when you ask the standard excuse for conditions is because the amount of play. To that I say, have you ever played Baseline in Ocala? That course sees an enormous amount of play but is always in wonderful shape compared to our executive courses?? So what gives? Why can’t we do better here? I don’t know everything that needs to happen behind the scenes but it does make me wonder why??

Playing on Executive courses for "free" draws many who have poor golf skills. Paid public courses tend to draw golfers with a better understanding of the rules of play, including repairing divots and ball marks.
The Spring season here is dry and the number of players is at its max.

[HORNET]

The Villages have been at it well over 50years. Now some come- lately thinks that they have a solution!!!!!!!

[goodoldan]

What this suggestion is, if you want GREAT executive conditions, let the free market decide, let the user pay.
Or in this case, let the user pay TWICE...

[M2inOR]

Players: fix your divots and ball marks. Only drive your carts where permitted.
Course Management: train your staff AND make sure your maintenance staff are doing a good job.

District Management: let your contracted maintenance staff know whether they're doing a good job or a bad one. Renew contracts only for doing a good job.

Everyone: be thankful our low amenity fees bring a lot of great options for activities, including golf.

The Championship courses should be in better shape as more $$$ are coming in from the players