OPEC Reduction

[RICH1]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?

[MrFlorida]

This is going to get political real fast.

[Chi-Town]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?

Tell us, what do you think? Yes or no answers only for brevity.

[Battlebasset]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?

If you rely on other countries for a commodity that has no substitutes you are subject to their whims.

The solution? For commodities that are crucial and have no substitutes, figure out how to mine/drill/process them domestically. That puts you in the driver's seat, and potentially drives the price down. It also reduces the money they have available to fund bad things, like terrorism and war.

[RICH1]

Tell us, what do you think? Yes or no answers only for brevity.
Inflation and Yes, Yes, and Yes

[billethkid]

A novel thought?
Energy independence!!
Such an easy solution and readily available.

____________________________________________

:censored:

[DAVES]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?

OIL is interesting. It is not just crude but the quality and the cost. There are places in the middle east where crude simply flows out of the ground. Far easer to know where it is and to extract it compared to stuff like fracking drilling under water etc.

The article I read was that the Saudis surprised us with a production cut. This makes me wonder. First we should know, expect what might etc.

Reading about oil. I took some time to read and my result was HUH? Prices go up immediately as if there is no product on hand on tankers etc. At a higher price the companies can use more expensive sources.

Venezuela oil? Venezuela went from being a prosperous nation to a financial basket case due to their government. Business decision? I think Venezuela has nationalized their oil industry. Imagine a company investing millions, billions and a country says it is ours we are taking it. Also the crude from Venezuela is low quality.

In terms of trying to understand oil. Price per barrel? How many gallons are in a barrel? If, I recall it is 42 gallons to a barrel left over from when oil was shipped in beer barrels. Product from a refined barrel is actually more than the gallons in the barrel-HUH THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. In the US much oil comes from land owned by the government-we the people. We do not have any say in what we will charge for what we the people own. HUH? Our nation gets like one barrel out of every ???/ 14 or is it 16 extracted. HUH why do we pay to fill the national reserve?

My view of this. When things are deliberately made this complex you need to ask WHERE WE THE PEOPLE are being cheated.

I like many of us am retired. I used to drive a lot to earn my money. Does not effect me much. But, imagine driving over 1,000 miles a week at todays gas prices. Rising costs. You can bet prices will go up. Interest rate adjustment will not reduce the cost of gasoline or diesel. The US has more energy in coal than the entire middle east has in oil. We fortunately have many options.

[MrFlorida]

It's a shame we don't have any oil here in our country.....Oh Wait !!!!

[Caymus]

OIL is interesting. It is not just crude but the quality and the cost. There are places in the middle east where crude simply flows out of the ground. Far easer to know where it is and to extract it compared to stuff like fracking drilling under water etc.



Jed Clampett used a rifle to strike oil.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Two Bills]

A novel thought?
Energy independence!!
Such an easy solution and readily available.

____________________________________________

:censored:

It's a shame we don't have any oil here in our country.....Oh Wait !!!!

Sounds good, but will US oil companies undercut the world price?
They historically have never shown any other inclination than raking in the profits high prices bring.

[Two Bills]

Of far more import is Finland joining NATO. This move doubles NATO’s border with Russia and gives Putin even more reason to take care of business in Belarus ASAP. There is nothing more dangerous than a wounded bear.

I think you will find that Belarus is Russia's ally.
Ukraine Is the country that Russia invaded.

[Tvflguy]

I cringe with astonishment and anger how idiotic this all is. We have complete ability to continue to be energy independent and sell to other, allied, countries. Oil, gasoline and natural gas. ALL under our feet in this great country. But, BUT!!!!!

Yeh ANOTHER decision that is killing our beloved country.

I’m cringing with anger yet again. grrrrrrrrrr

[Battlebasset]

Sounds good, but will US oil companies undercut the world price?
They historically have never shown any other inclination than raking in the profits high prices bring.

Prices were quite low from 2017 to 2020, so I would say yes. We had OPEC in a stranglehold. Every time they tried to raise prices, our producers would undercut them.

Great position to be in. Master of your own fate. Here's a WSJ article from 2020 with more details. You can view for free with your library card and the Sumter County Library website log-in. And no, I don't mean this to be political. Just an illustration of how it can be done.

Russia Takes Aim at U.S. Shale Oil Producers - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-takes-aim-at-u-s-shale-oil-producers-11584052675?mod=article_inline)

[blueash]

Prices were quite low from 2017 to 2020, so I would say yes. We had OPEC in a stranglehold. Every time they tried to raise prices, our producers would undercut them.

Great position to be in. Master of your own fate. Here's a WSJ article from 2020 with more details. You can view for free with your library card and the Sumter County Library website log-in. And no, I don't mean this to be political. Just an illustration of how it can be done.

Russia Takes Aim at U.S. Shale Oil Producers - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-takes-aim-at-u-s-shale-oil-producers-11584052675?mod=article_inline)

I suspect you are looking at data with a preconceived notion of the truth. See the chart below showing crude oil prices since 2014
//www.macrotrends.net/2516/wti-crude-oil-prices-10-year-daily-chart
There was absolutely nothing special about 2017 to 2020 other than a price crash when the world demand collapsed from Covid. There was also a crash in world oil prices in the last quarter of 2017 (https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/investing/oil-prices-trump-saudi-arabia/index.html#:~:text=Analysts%20say%20the%20oil%20pl unge,a%20barrel%2C%20according%20to%20RBC.)and it had nothing to do with our producers strangling OPEC. The cost then shot up in the first quarter of 2018 wiping out the drop that happened. Again our production did not change at all from its previous trend.

It is all world economic demand and speculators. The US gov't unlike OPEC nations does not regulate how much oil we produce nor how much we ship overseas. We would be oil independent if you want to nationalize the oil industry and legislate that all oil pumped from US land remain here.

US oil companies have made huge profits as oil prices rose after the Covid shutdown ended and the Putin war against Ukraine disrupted Russian oil availability to Europe, and yes even to the USA. The price of US produced oil went up and US produced oil was sold on the worldwide market at the new increasing prices. So Chevron and Exxon etc all made windfall profits, not because of US government policies but because they wanted to boost their profits and buy back their own stock (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-08/exxon-mobil-expands-share-buyback-plan-to-50-billion#xj4y7vzkg)which benefits the stockholders and the CEOs pay. They didn't use those profits to invest in their workers or their infrastructure. Exxon alone is using the money it gained from gouging us to the tune of a 50 billion dollar buyback. $50,000,000,000.00

The crude price per barrel was 53.06 on Jan 20 2017
It was 76.41 on Oct 3 2018 which was a 44% increase in just 21 months. Did that large increase happen because our producers strangled OPEC? Obviously not
then the market crashed
It was 44.81 on Dec 27 2018 but then it jumped again
It was 63.27 on Jan 6 2020 then Covid hit

This is not oil market stability this is simply typical of the variations in a highly volatile world commodity which moves in part on real world events and partly on speculators. Remember Eddie Murphy in Trading Places
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4fVgVVpiw

[Pairadocs]

[QUOTE=billethkid;2204337]A novel thought?
Energy independence!!
Such an easy solution and readily available.

___________________________________________

That's brilliant, it really is. Do you have some equally possible, logical, and financially achievable ideas on how we could establish something like, say, sovereign borders ? If so, maybe we should send you to D.C., would you consider leaving the "V's" ???

[mikemalloy]

They're hitting us with the bat we gave them. Of great concern is our depleted National Oil Reserve which needs to be replenished. Our buying oil to do so will only increase demand and drive prices even higher. You reap what you so.

[Vermilion Villager]

If you rely on other countries for a commodity that has no substitutes you are subject to their whims.

The solution? For commodities that are crucial and have no substitutes, figure out how to mine/drill/process them domestically. That puts you in the driver's seat, and potentially drives the price down. It also reduces the money they have available to fund bad things, like terrorism and war.

Why do people keep going there?
If I or any one of you had stock in an oil company and found out the Board of Directors authorized the sale of our oil at a reduced rate instead of putting it out in the open market… There will be a new Board of Directors. Bottom line oil is a worldwide commodity and the only way you control it.....is by not using it.

[RPDaly]

////

[OhioBuckeye]

I don’t know about interest rates but I heard Russia & S. Arabia are saying they’re going send 1 million less barrels of crude to the U.S. That means we’ll be paying $5. a gal. for gasoline. All Biden & some of the voters can do is smile! What’s your thoughts?

[tuccillo]

Not exactly. Saudi and the other major oil producers are cutting production by 1.15 million barrels per day through the end of 2023. To say that all of the production cut is targeted at the US is not correct. Oil is a global commodity. To put this in perspective and provide some context, the world uses about 100 million barrels of oil per day and the US uses about 20 million barrels of oil per day. The announced cut by Saudi is about 5% of their current production. I believe the US is still the world's largest producer of oil at about 12 million barrels per day.

I don’t know about interest rates but I heard Russia & S. Arabia are saying they’re going send 1 million less barrels of crude to the U.S. That means we’ll be paying $5. a gal. for gasoline. All Biden & some of the voters can do is smile! What’s your thoughts?

[rsmurano]

A novel thought?
Energy independence!!
Such an easy solution and readily available.

____________________________________________

:censored:
A few years ago we were energy independent and we will be again in the future. If we were energy independent, we wouldn’t care what OPEC does. Now we have to go begging our enemies for energy

[MrFlorida]

A few years ago we were energy independent and we will be again in the future. If we were energy independent, we wouldn’t care what OPEC does. Now we have to go begging our enemies for energy

100% correct !

[Battlebasset]

Why do people keep going there?
If I or any one of you had stock in an oil company and found out the Board of Directors authorized the sale of our oil at a reduced rate instead of putting it out in the open market… There will be a new Board of Directors. Bottom line oil is a worldwide commodity and the only way you control it.....is by not using it.

Tell me...how do you do that? There is no substitute at this time for oil, not only for gasoline/diesel, but for the tens of thousands of products manufactured with oil - plastics being the one that first comes to mind.

Wind and solar is nowhere near able to do just the energy part, and that will be the case for the rest of our lifetimes, and probably our children too. Throw nuclear into the mix? That would get us much closer, but we've been told it isn't even under consideration.

[GizmoWhiskers]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?

Lol another infraction clickbait thread. Much like a thread on crime. Zip it... zip... zip...

[Djean1981]

The US has oil...

[jimjamuser]

A novel thought?
Energy independence!!
Such an easy solution and readily available.

____________________________________________

:censored:
Energy independence could be achieved quickly if 70% of all new cars, trucks, and golf carts SOLD were ELECTRIC. It is in the hands of us CONSUMERS - we just have to do the right thing for ourselves and the air that we breathe.

[jimjamuser]

I don’t know about interest rates but I heard Russia & S. Arabia are saying they’re going send 1 million less barrels of crude to the U.S. That means we’ll be paying $5. a gal. for gasoline. All Biden & some of the voters can do is smile! What’s your thoughts?
Buy an E-Vehicle !!!!!!!!

[tuccillo]

So tell us, which EV do you own? Which brand of solar panels are on your roof?

Buy an E-Vehicle !!!!!!!!

[RICH1]

Gizmo, Planning for the Future is not clickbait. Interested in which direction our economy is headed, and reading the opinions of some educated Villagers is my intention…

[Vermilion Villager]

So tell us, which EV do you own? Which brand of solar panels are on your roof?

Don't know what that has to do with anything but...Tesla, and my golf cart is a STAR EV. :welcome:

[Vermilion Villager]

Tell me...how do you do that? There is no substitute at this time for oil, not only for gasoline/diesel, but for the tens of thousands of products manufactured with oil - plastics being the one that first comes to mind.

Wind and solar is nowhere near able to do just the energy part, and that will be the case for the rest of our lifetimes, and probably our children too. Throw nuclear into the mix? That would get us much closer, but we've been told it isn't even under consideration.
See reply #26-27 for your short answer.

Most of the oil consumed in the US goes into a car tank in the form of gasoline. If you don't use it there is no market for it. I know this because we had this thing called a pandemic in 2019-2020 and oil was selling for -$40/bbl. That means they were paying you $40 just to take it. Thats the extreme, and we were not using oil because we didn't want to it was because the economy was in lockdown. However, it shows just how much oil is at the mercy of the consumer.

[tuccillo]

I wasn't asking you.

Don't know what that has to do with anything but...Tesla, and my golf cart is a STAR EV. :welcome:

[tuccillo]

In reality, it is actually less than half, about 45%. I know people like to round up. Worldwide it is about 25%.

See reply #26-27 for your short answer.

Most of the oil consumed in the US goes into a car tank in the form of gasoline. If you don't use it there is no market for it. I know this because we had this thing called a pandemic in 2019-2020 and oil was selling for -$40/bbl. That means they were paying you $40 just to take it. Thats the extreme, and we were not using oil because we didn't want to it was because the economy was in lockdown. However, it shows just how much oil is at the mercy of the consumer.

[Andyb]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?
All could have been avoided by staying energy independent and not shutting down the Alaskan pipeline. Does not get any more simpler than that. We were there 2 years ago. Wonder what changed?

[Two Bills]

All could have been avoided by staying energy independent and not shutting down the Alaskan pipeline. Does not get any more simpler than that. We were there 2 years ago. Wonder what changed?

Just over 2 years ago there was a glut of oil world wide.
The price and demand was at its lowest.
Then the world opened up from all the Covid lock downs and demand could not keep up with production.
Since then oil has practically been weaponized due to the war in Ukraine as a product, with the haves reaping vast profits, including I may add, US oil companies.
Oil demand and price, as well as inflation is a world problem, and inflation wise, the US is doing much better than many.
The world does not finish at the US border.

[joelfmi]

This tread refers to what NYS is planning to do about fossil it is from petro home services. Beware This can happen to the people in Florida.
Albany is actively working on plans that would force you to convert your natural gas, heating oil or propane gas heating systems to electric heat pumps as early as 2030, at a cost that could add upwards of $20,000+ per home. They would also artificially inflate the cost of all energy with new carbon taxes or something they call “cap and invest.” They would force you to buy electric cars and trucks no matter how much more they cost or their limitations. And they are planning to outlaw the use of fossil fuels for creating electricity, jeopardizing our electric grid reliability. It could be disastrous for NY families and businesses.

If you disagree with the narrow, untested, and expensive forced electrification path, you need to tell them right now! It is not enough to simply comment on Facebook, or complain to friends. Enter your information and write your own message, or use the preloaded one. In less than a minute, you can let the Governor and your legislators know how you feel before it’s too late.

We need an energy plan that reduces carbon emissions, but which includes traditional fuels that are increasingly renewable and efficient, so we don’t suffer the tremendous costs, disruptions and backlash that their plans will generate.
Tell Albany, You are going too far, too fast! Your message will automatically be sent to the Governor, your state senator and your assembly member, based on your address. Use the provided message or replace it with your own.
I support efforts to fight climate change, but fear that NY is on a path which would create huge financial hardships for my family, and serious problems for the state. If the Climate Action Council's plans are adopted, I would be forced to spend tens of thousands of dollars to convert my home to heat pumps, electric stoves, and water heaters. I would be penalized with carbon taxes or surcharges on other fuels. NY's electric rates are already among the highest in the country, and we report the most outages of any state in the Mid-Atlantic. The rapid, untested changes to the electric grid are likely to send electric rates even higher and compromise the resilience of the grid.

I don't believe we have a good enough understanding of the real costs and risks of these plans, and there will be a backlash when their impact is felt. Our path forward should not abandon fuels like natural gas, propane gas and biofuel heating oil, which can get increasingly renewable. We can reduce carbon output significantly without putting all our eggs in one fragile, expensive electric basket.

We are moving too far, too fast, with too much risk and cost. I urge you to support a broader path to a cleaner energy future.

[OhioBuckeye]

Not exactly. Saudi and the other major oil producers are cutting production by 1.15 million barrels per day through the end of 2023. To say that all of the production cut is targeted at the US is not correct. Oil is a global commodity. To put this in perspective and provide some context, the world uses about 100 million barrels of oil per day and the US uses about 20 million barrels of oil per day. The announced cut by Saudi is about 5% of their current production. I believe the US is still the world's largest producer of oil at about 12 million barrels per day.

Thanks for your response but you must of heard something a little different than what I
did. If we were producing oil we wouldn’t have gotten our gas prices raised by $0.20 just this week. My information came from BBC, you can’t believe anything that our news says here in the U.S. If you want hear what’s going on here in the U.S. don’t listen to our fake news media here, listen to a neutral countries news. I hope your right!

[OhioBuckeye]

ChiTown: read your comment where you said “Answer Yes or No”. Sorry I still disagree with your response to me. I heard it again on BBC that oil prices here in the U.S. are going up. Sorry but I disagree with your comment. Gas prices will reach $5. a gal. Also the little curly haired spokesman said gas prices will go down. Believe what you want but our economy is going to pot!

[tuccillo]

I am not sure I understand your point. We do produce oil, we produce a lot of oil. The oil we do use comes from both domestic and foreign sources. We do use foreign sources of oil for reasons of price and the type of oil (all oil isn't the same). The production cuts by the Saudis and other countries will impact the global oil supply and increase prices. Oil is a global commodity. What I wrote in my post (that you responded to) are basic facts available from a variety of sources.

Thanks for your response but you must of heard something a little different than what I
did. If we were producing oil we wouldn’t have gotten our gas prices raised by $0.20 just this week. My information came from BBC, you can’t believe anything that our news says here in the U.S. If you want hear what’s going on here in the U.S. don’t listen to our fake news media here, listen to a neutral countries news. I hope your right!

[Whitley]

Why do people keep going there?
If I or any one of you had stock in an oil company and found out the Board of Directors authorized the sale of our oil at a reduced rate instead of putting it out in the open market… There will be a new Board of Directors. Bottom line oil is a worldwide commodity and the only way you control it.....is by not using it.

Increase supply while maintaining demand and the price will drop.

[jimjamuser]

So tell us, which EV do you own? Which brand of solar panels are on your roof?
Right now, one with 2 wheels. Soon, one with 4 wheels.

[jimjamuser]

Increase supply while maintaining demand and the price will drop.
Reducing oil demand by buying e-vehicles and the price of a barrel of oil will drop.

[tuccillo]

Yep, pretty much what I thought.

Right now, one with 2 wheels. Soon, one with 4 wheels.

[Dusty_Star]

the only way you control it.....is by not using it.

No, the way you control it is to produce more of it.

[Vermilion Villager]

In reality, it is actually less than half, about 45%. I know people like to round up. Worldwide it is about 25%.

And I know people like to get hung up on the minutia when they're losing an argument. For the sake of that, OK....we'll use your numbers. If demand for that 45% was cut by half, then it would have an effect not only on that 45% but also the 55% that is used for other oil based products. Use me for an example… I pay $0 directly to the oil industry for my transportation, and it takes less total energy consumption for my electric vehicle to go 100 miles than my other car which is a gasoline powered Prius that gets almost 60 mpg. Toyota announced that they have over 1000 patents on battery technology that will replace lithium ion, and are going to roll out a solid state battery (what NASA uses in space) powered vehicle in 2025 that they claim will go 700 miles on a charge and be able to be recharged in 20 minutes. Up in Minnesota one of the large gasoline station chains is already starting to put in islands for EV charging. The handwriting is on the wall.

[Vermilion Villager]

No, the way you control it is to produce more of it.

So what you're saying is if the US produces more oil then the price will go down. What is your answer for when the Saudis cut production to offset that increase in US production?

[tuccillo]

What argument are you referring to? You exaggerated and I corrected you. Go reread my post. Demand for gas and diesel will be strong for the next 20 years (maybe more), but diminishing slowly with time. There are currently 1.4 billion cars and trucks and 89 million cars and trucks are manufactured each year and their average lifespan is probably about 20 years. Yes, several companies have been working on solid state batteries. What really matters is what can be produced at scale. It is very doubtful you will see solid state batteries produced at scale in 2025 - perhaps more like 2030 or a bit later. We will, however, continue to see several different chemistries in lithium-ion batteries (NMC, LFP, NCA) produced at scale for the next several years (led by CATL, Tesla/Panasonic, and LG). More facts (or what you call arguments), I know you don't like that.

EVS POWERED BY ALL SOLID STATE BATTERIES - STILL 10 YEARS AWAY FROM MASS PRODUCTION, SAYS STOREDOT (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/evs-powered-by-all-solid-state-batteries--still-10-years-away-from-mass-production-says-storedot-301665494.html)

Solid State Battery Tech For EV Cars: Challenges Lie Ahead (https://www.motortrend.com/features/solid-state-ev-car-batteries-challenges/)

And I know people like to get hung up on the minutia when they're losing an argument. For the sake of that, OK....we'll use your numbers. If demand for that 45% was cut by half, then it would have an effect not only on that 45% but also the 55% that is used for other oil based products. Use me for an example… I pay $0 directly to the oil industry for my transportation, and it takes less total energy consumption for my electric vehicle to go 100 miles than my other car which is a gasoline powered Prius that gets almost 60 mpg. Toyota announced that they have over 1000 patents on battery technology that will replace lithium ion, and are going to roll out a solid state battery (what NASA uses in space) powered vehicle in 2025 that they claim will go 700 miles on a charge and be able to be recharged in 20 minutes. Up in Minnesota one of the large gasoline station chains is already starting to put in islands for EV charging. The handwriting is on the wall.

[tuccillo]

No, it doesn't work that way. Oil is a global commodity and we use about 20% of the world's oil. OPEC has a long history of controlling oil prices by changing production. If demand falls production will decrease which will stabilize prices. Oil in the US is relatively expensive to produce. Production in the US may drop as a result of any falling prices, which will also work to shore up prices.

Reducing oil demand by buying e-vehicles and the price of a barrel of oil will drop.

[Haggar]

No, the way you control it is to produce more of it.

To all that think the solution is just produce more If you read the Wall St Journal you would read that oil companies have declined to invest in new oil drilling and have stopped shale oil recovery because they believe that is not in the best interest of their shareholders. They would rather increase dividends and do buybacks.

How do you increase production in the USA with this approach by the oil companies?

[Haggar]

All could have been avoided by staying energy independent and not shutting down the Alaskan pipeline. Does not get any more simpler than that. We were there 2 years ago. Wonder what changed?

The Alaskan pipeline is going strong. It celebrated it's 45 year anniversary in 2022.

Are you thinking of the Keystone XL Pipeline Extension which was stopped? This pipeline was built to carry the world's dirtiest fossil fuels - tar sands oil - from Canada which cannot be used in cars to refineries on the Gulf Coast of Texas chiefly for export.

The Keystone Pipeline System is operational and carries oil from Canada to refineries in Illinois, Texas and Oklahoma.

[kkingston57]

A novel thought?
Energy independence!!
Such an easy solution and readily available.

____________________________________________

:censored:

Energy independence in a world economy, not going to happen. If oil in Texas can be sold out of the US, who are they going to sell it to?

[kkingston57]

A few years ago we were energy independent and we will be again in the future. If we were energy independent, we wouldn’t care what OPEC does. Now we have to go begging our enemies for energy

Oil was, still is, and will continue to be sold on the world wide market. Even if the US could supply all the oil we need, highest bidder gets the oil. In order for the US to have and rely upon our own oil. there would need to be government mandates on price. Not going to happen.

[kkingston57]

No, the way you control it is to produce more of it.

Producing more is NOT good for oil companies since an increase in production will lessen demand for oil and the price will drop.

[gmnirr]

Will this cause Inflation or Recession? Are the Saudis playing with fire? Will the United States finally support the Venezuelan Government and import oil? Will Powell follow other Countries and Stop raising interest rates?
Didn't we do that under Trump ?

[Bay Kid]

If you can grow your own vegetables why would you buy them from another country?