Ban on transgender women running in 2024 Olympics

[mtdjed]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.

[Garywt]

That is the correct thing to do, transgender people do not lose their muscle structure and it is true that men going up against women, the men will win most of the time. I reverse it is an uphill battle for them so it is fair for them to compete. It is most fair for woman working to compete to be able to compete equally.

[Bay Kid]

Where are the woman's right people? So unfair.

[ThirdOfFive]

Where are the woman's right people? So unfair.
If they were women, I'd agree.

Had a client once who woke up one morning and thought he was a chiropractor. Made a sign and put it in his apartment window facing the street: "Dr. _____, Natural Healing". He got mad as heck when I told him that he wasn't a chiropractor and that he had to take his sign down: even threatened me with a lawsuit, claiming I was depriving him of his right to make a living. Fortunately, a visit to his Psychiatrist and a day or three wait for the new med to take effect took care of the issue: he was back to being who he always was.

Sometimes, reality stomps on in and crushes our most cherished fantasies.

[MrFlorida]

Apples to apples.

[LuvNH]

Where are the woman's right people? So unfair.

I'm a women's rights person and I think this is great news. It is very unfair for women to have to compete against a man in women's clothing.

[Boomer]

I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care.

BUT, that being said, I agree that transgender women should not be competing against female athletes who were born female. This is not just about the Olympics, it is about all levels of sports, from informal competitions to the awarding of scholarships. Height and strength can make all the difference in athletic competition……

Let’s be fair.

Boomer the Moderate (an endangered species)

[Fltpkr]

If they were women, I'd agree.

Had a client once who woke up one morning and thought he was a chiropractor. Made a sign and put it in his apartment window facing the street: "Dr. _____, Natural Healing". He got mad as heck when I told him that he wasn't a chiropractor and that he had to take his sign down: even threatened me with a lawsuit, claiming I was depriving him of his right to make a living. Fortunately, a visit to his Psychiatrist and a day or three wait for the new med to take effect took care of the issue: he was back to being who he always was.

Sometimes, reality stomps on in and crushes our most cherished fantasies.


I think that is a silly and completely illogical response to serious issue. No individual or family with children facing a sexual identity issue takes this lightly or treats it as a running joke. No one “wakes up one morning” deciding they are actually of a different sex - it is typically the consequence of years of nagging doubts, frustration and fear, and incredible heartache from trying to fit into the expectations of others and facing the most incredible cruelty when they don’t. Most Villagers are old enough and experienced enough to have met people from all walks of life and know that we are not all cut from the same cloth and sexuality is not some hard and fast rule that everyone fits into neatly. I am not speaking to the issue of athletic competition but to all the demeaning, thoughtless, crude and silly comments that this issue provokes.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.

So you're saying - someone who was born with the female anatomy, grew up that way, but "came out" as a transgender male, getting all the appropriate medical treatment BEFORE entering Olympic trials - including breast removal, hysterectomy, and hormone treatment to produce more masculine traits including lowering of voice and facial hair growth..

They should be trying out in the WOMENS' Olympics trials. Because he was born female and that's how you want it to be. Right?

I mean he's stronger, taller, has facial hair, no longer has a woman's reproductive system, or breast tissue. His hormonal balance is now that of a natural-born man, nothing more, he's not taking "extra" hormones but rather - hormone replacement. Just like a woman going through menopause takes hormone replacement. Except this one is for men, not women. But he'll be competing as a woman.

Because that's what you want.

I say - okay. That's fine.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care.

BUT, that being said, I agree that transgender women should not be competing against female athletes who were born female. This is not just about the Olympics, it is about all levels of sports, from informal competitions to the awarding of scholarships. Height and strength can make all the difference in athletic competition……

Let’s be fair.

Boomer the Moderate (an endangered species)

I also feel that transgender males/females shouldn't be competing for teams of the gender that doesn't match their biology. But if they compete in teams that DOES match their biology, then you'll have transgender women - who were born biologically male - competing against men. Tall women with no facial hair, no *****, wearing bras, competing with men. Because they were born with a ***** even though they no longer have one. That makes zero sense.

I'd rather see all sports open up to all genders. No more male teams and female teams. People can be on the teams selected on the merits of their abilities rather than what reproductive organs they were born with, or currently have. Yes, men are typically taller than women. But the average "random tall guy" still can't play basketball as well as the "tall chick with the full 4-year basketball scholarship at UConn."

And many of those college basketball men can't hold a candle to some of the Women Huskies.

So pick your teams with men, women, transgender, cisgender, nonbinary, whatever. If they can do the job, then they're on the team.

[manaboutown]

If a person's chromosomes are XY, he is biologically a male and should only be allowed to compete against other males, no matter the surgeries, hormones, clothing he chooses to wear and so on. It is not fair to let him compete against biological females having XX chromosomes. It is that simple.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If a person's chromosomes are XY, he is biologically a male and should only be allowed to compete against other males, no matter the surgeries, hormones, clothing he chooses to wear and so on. It is not fair to let him compete against biological females having XX chromosomes. It is that simple.

And if a person's chromosomes are XX, she is biologically a female and should be allowed to compete against other females, no matter the surgeries, hormones, clothing she chooses to wear and so on. It's not fair to let her compete against biological males having XY chromosomes. It's that simple.

Good luck with that for womens' basketball, baseball, and hockey teams. That transgender male being forced to play on womens' teams because he has XX chromosomes is gonna clean up.

[Bill14564]

And if a person's chromosomes are XX, she is biologically a female and should be allowed to compete against other females, no matter the surgeries, hormones, clothing she chooses to wear and so on. It's not fair to let her compete against biological males having XY chromosomes. It's that simple.

Good luck with that for womens' basketball, baseball, and hockey teams. That transgender male being forced to play on womens' teams because he has XX chromosomes is gonna clean up.

What is it about the transition process do you think will allow a formerly-female body to now "clean up" against presently-female bodies? Does the transition process redefine bone and muscle structure in some way when going from female to male? The process certainly doesn't appear to redefine those structures when going from male to female.

[dewilson58]

What is it about the transition process do you think will allow a formerly-female body to now "clean up" against presently-female bodies? Does the transition process redefine bone and muscle structure in some way when going from female to male? The process certainly doesn't appear to redefine those structures when going from male to female.

We may never know......................signed out after your post.

[Cybersprings]

And if a person's chromosomes are XX, she is biologically a female and should be allowed to compete against other females, no matter the surgeries, hormones, clothing she chooses to wear and so on. It's not fair to let her compete against biological males having XY chromosomes. It's that simple.

Good luck with that for womens' basketball, baseball, and hockey teams. That transgender male being forced to play on womens' teams because he has XX chromosomes is gonna clean up.

I realize that logic is not everyone's forte, so I will try to help.


You are the only person I have ever heard state "It's not fair to let her compete against biological males having XY chromosomes."

I think there is a very simple and logical reason why no one else has stated that.

In fact, if a transgender man is receiving hormone therapy (also known as performance enhancing drugs) that person should not be allowed to compete against biological women. She can cut off or add whatever body parts she wants, she can dress in any way she wants. But if she is taking testosterone, that is PEDs, and that should disqualify her from competing against biological females.

You can TRY to twist this any way you want. You can try to assign negative intent of hatred or discrimination all you want. But you are wrong. The basis for this whole discussion is fairness of competion. If you have an unfair advantage based on biology or testosterone therapy, you do not get to compete against those who do not have that unfair advantage.

[dewilson58]

Males have varying degrees of masculinity and males have varying degrees of femininity.

Females have varying degrees of femininity and females have varying degrees of masculinity.

How feminine or how masculine one is, does not change their sex.

Drugs and surgery change appearances, does not change XX or XY.

Males are still males and females are still females.

What am I missing??

[Cybersprings]

Males have varying degrees of masculinity and males have varying degrees of femininity.

Females have varying degrees of femininity and females have varying degrees of masculinity.

How feminine or how masculine one is, does not change their sex.

Drugs and surgery change appearances, does not change XX or XY.

Males are still males and females are still females.

What am I missing??

As usual, you are not missing anything. But to clarify one point, just as males are not allowed to juice with Testosterone and HGH and compete against other males, females should not be allowed to juice with Testosterone and HGH and compete against other females.

[Cybersprings]

What is it about the transition process do you think will allow a formerly-female body to now "clean up" against presently-female bodies? Does the transition process redefine bone and muscle structure in some way when going from female to male? The process certainly doesn't appear to redefine those structures when going from male to female.

Testosterone. For the same reason men are not allowed to juice with Testosterone for an advantage against other men, women should not be allowed to juice with testosterone and compete against other women. Testosterone will not turn the woman into a man, but testosterone will definitely provide an unfair advantage. In fact, we used to always complain about the Russian women swimmers who were clearly taking testosterone because of the unfair advantage it provided.

[Johnsocat]

I also feel that transgender males/females shouldn't be competing for teams of the gender that doesn't match their biology. But if they compete in teams that DOES match their biology, then you'll have transgender women - who were born biologically male - competing against men. Tall women with no facial hair, no *****, wearing bras, competing with men. Because they were born with a ***** even though they no longer have one. That makes zero sense.

I'd rather see all sports open up to all genders. No more male teams and female teams. People can be on the teams selected on the merits of their abilities rather than what reproductive organs they were born with, or currently have. Yes, men are typically taller than women. But the average "random tall guy" still can't play basketball as well as the "tall chick with the full 4-year basketball scholarship at UConn."

And many of those college basketball men can't hold a candle to some of the Women Huskies.

So pick your teams with men, women, transgender, cisgender, nonbinary, whatever. If they can do the job, then they're on the team.

Women will never win a competition again if their rights are not protected.

[Tvflguy]

I’m upset. I am now identifying as a blind person. And cannot read all these posts.

Totally unfair. I’m requesting a Reader to come to my home.

[Taltarzac725]

They should just cover it with the rules against doping and not get into the other stuff.

[ThirdOfFive]

Males have varying degrees of masculinity and males have varying degrees of femininity.

Females have varying degrees of femininity and females have varying degrees of masculinity.

How feminine or how masculine one is, does not change their sex.

Drugs and surgery change appearances, does not change XX or XY.

Males are still males and females are still females.

What am I missing??
Not one da_n thing!

[Cybersprings]

They should just cover it with the rules against doping and not get into the other stuff.

Looking for clarification, please. Doping covers transgender men (women) competing against biological women while taking testosterone. So, I agree that can be handled with doping rules without addressing other things about that issue.

Doping rules do not cover transgender women (men) competing against women, because it is all the other advantages of being a man that make it unfair. So, the transgender women wouldn't be doping, so the other stuff needs to be addressed by stating biological males cannot compete against biological females.

[Taltarzac725]

Looking for clarification, please. Doping covers transgender men (women) competing against biological women while taking testosterone. So, I agree that can be handled with doping rules without addressing other things about that issue.

Doping rules do not cover transgender women (men) competing against women, because it is all the other advantages of being a man that make it unfair. So, the transgender women wouldn't be doping, so the other stuff needs to be addressed by stating biological males cannot compete against biological females.

Probably should be addressed on a case-by-case basis as to men who have become women as body types vary a great deal among athletes from long distance runners to heavy weight lifters. In many cases there probably would not that much difference.

[dewilson58]

As usual, you are not missing anything. But to clarify one point, just as males are not allowed to juice with Testosterone and HGH and compete against other males, females should not be allowed to juice with Testosterone and HGH and compete against other females.

I would assume the Oly Committee and colleges and high schools and middle schools will start addressing the juices in bodies. I hope.

[dewilson58]

I’m upset. I am now identifying as a blind person. And cannot read all these posts.

Totally unfair. I’m requesting a Reader to come to my home.

My Bride says I identify as a 12 year old at times.

:thumbup:

[Cybersprings]

I'd rather see all sports open up to all genders. No more male teams and female teams. People can be on the teams selected on the merits of their abilities rather than what reproductive organs they were born with, or currently have. Yes, men are typically taller than women. But the average "random tall guy" still can't play basketball as well as the "tall chick with the full 4-year basketball scholarship at UConn."

And many of those college basketball men can't hold a candle to some of the Women Huskies.



You just cut the number of teams in half, e.g. instead of UConn women's basketball and UConn's men's basket ball you just have UConn basketball. And now not one of those women basketball players gets to be on the team.

Serena Williams, arguably the best women's tennis player of all time played the then 203rd ranked male. Serena lost 6-1. She claimed she played as well as she normally does. Venus then walked on the court and lost 6-2.

You are sadly mistaken if you think UConn women would beat out the even the bottom of the college male starters. I chuckle at your assertion that they couldn't even hold a candle to them.

[Cybersprings]

Probably should be addressed on a case-by-case basis as to men who have become women as body types vary a great deal among athletes from long distance runners to heavy weight lifters. In many cases there probably would not that much difference.

That is so ridiculous. There are very few cases where it would not make much difference.

In running events women's world records are on average 90% as fast as the men's world records and 84.15% as long/high in the jumping events. A fairly big difference... especially if we consider that all the running events are in the range of 2.3% from best to worst.(Sep 15, 2016)

[Cybersprings]

My Bride says I identify as a 12 year old at times.

:thumbup:

I think there is a difference in what you identify as and what she identifies you as ;-)

[Cybersprings]

I would assume the Oly Committee and colleges and high schools and middle schools will start addressing the juices in bodies. I hope.


I am not holding my breath because the vast majority of decisions they have made so far have been for "inclusivity" and not fairness.

[LuvNH]

My Bride says I identify as a 12 year old at times.

:thumbup:

I tell my other half my estrogen left me and the testosterone is growing by leaps and bounds. He says don't bother him with the small stuff! :D

[Taltarzac725]

That is so ridiculous. There are very few cases where it would not make much difference.

In running events women's world records are on average 90% as fast as the men's world records and 84.15% as long/high in the jumping events. A fairly big difference... especially if we consider that all the running events are in the range of 2.3% from best to worst.(Sep 15, 2016)

And how many trans people make the Olympics? Very very few in either the Summer or Winter Olympics. And there are many Olympic sports which highlight technical abilities developed over years of experience rather than just physical attributes.

A case-by-case approach would be far easier.

[Cybersprings]

And how many trans people make the Olympics? Very very few in either the Summer or Winter Olympics. And there are many Olympic sports which highlight technical abilities developed over years of experience rather than just physical attributes.

A case-by-case approach would be far easier.

Explain how a case by case approach is any easier, much less far easier.
Either there is a reason to have different categories based on biological sex, or there is not. If there is, it is far easier to make the rule to compete against your same sex. If there is no advantage in the sport for either sex, then just have one category. Both of those are far easier than having to go through some analysis for each transgender person that wants to compete against people of a different gender. Maybe "easier" does not mean what you think it means.

[Taltarzac725]

Explain how a case by case approach is any easier, much less far easier.
Either there is a reason to have different categories based on biological sex, or there is not. If there is, it is far easier to make the rule to compete against your same sex. If there is no advantage in the sport for either sex, then just have one category. Both of those are far easier than having to go through some analysis for each transgender person that wants to compete against people of a different gender. Maybe "easier" does not mean what you think it means.

Again. How many transgender people make the Olympics? Probably very few. Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#:~:text=Second%2C%20a thletes%20must%20show%20legal,participate%20in%20t he%20Olympic%20Games).

[Cybersprings]

Again. How many transgender people make the Olympics? Probably very few. Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#:~:text=Second%2C%20a thletes%20must%20show%20legal,participate%20in%20t he%20Olympic%20Games).

What is your point? I am addressing competitive sports in general. Do your previous comments only apply to the olympics???

[Taltarzac725]

What is your point? I am addressing competitive sports in general. Do your previous comments only apply to the olympics???

Mine do. And it looks like it is just about people who were male running in the Olympics as females.

[Cybersprings]

Mine do. And it looks like it is just about people who were male running in the Olympics as females.

Ok. I will go with that. As you claim, virtually no one is inconvenienced by the rule, so no harm-no foul. The ruling is a non issue.

Next topic.

[fishon]

MrFlorida said:

“Apples to apples.”

It should be Adam’s apples to Adam’s apples.

[PugMom]

the only solution is to have trans compete against the other trans, in a category all their own

[Mpphred]

Apples to apples.

Like adam apples

[Stu from NYC]

You just cut the number of teams in half, e.g. instead of UConn women's basketball and UConn's men's basket ball you just have UConn basketball. And now not one of those women basketball players gets to be on the team.

Serena Williams, arguably the best women's tennis player of all time played the then 203rd ranked male. Serena lost 6-1. She claimed she played as well as she normally does. Venus then walked on the court and lost 6-2.

You are sadly mistaken if you think UConn women would beat out the even the bottom of the college male starters. I chuckle at your assertion that they couldn't even hold a candle to them.

Well said

[Stu from NYC]

the only solution is to have trans compete against the other trans, in a category all their own

Makes sense but who would pay to watch it?

[PugMom]

@ Stu: :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Aces4]

So you're saying - someone who was born with the female anatomy, grew up that way, but "came out" as a transgender male, getting all the appropriate medical treatment BEFORE entering Olympic trials - including breast removal, hysterectomy, and hormone treatment to produce more masculine traits including lowering of voice and facial hair growth..

They should be trying out in the WOMENS' Olympics trials. Because he was born female and that's how you want it to be. Right?

I mean he's stronger, taller, has facial hair, no longer has a woman's reproductive system, or breast tissue. His hormonal balance is now that of a natural-born man, nothing more, he's not taking "extra" hormones but rather - hormone replacement. Just like a woman going through menopause takes hormone replacement. Except this one is for men, not women. But he'll be competing as a woman.

Because that's what you want.

I say - okay. That's fine.


The only fair answer here is to create a transgender classification for sports competition.

I have no axe 🪓 to grind here and say live and let live, as long as no one else’s rights are trampled.

[JMintzer]

I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care.

Good thing no one brought that up in this thread (until you did...)

BUT, that being said, I agree that transgender women should not be competing against female athletes who were born female. This is not just about the Olympics, it is about all levels of sports, from informal competitions to the awarding of scholarships. Height and strength can make all the difference in athletic competition……

Let’s be fair.

Boomer the Moderate (an endangered species)

Thank you for actually responding to the topic of the thread...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The only fair answer here is to create a transgender classification for sports competition.

I have no axe 🪓 to grind here and say live and let live, as long as no one else’s rights are trampled.

I agree with the last part, and I don't care about sports anyway. But I don't think a "no transgenders allowed" is the right tack to take on this. I don't know what is the right tack, the idea of mixed teams seems more fair to me. And sure - even a transgender classification would be fine. If it's a mixed team, they'd have the same shot as any cis-gender man or woman at making the team.

[Eg_cruz]

Where are the woman's right people? So unfair.
Agree

[JMintzer]

So you're saying - someone who was born with the female anatomy, grew up that way, but "came out" as a transgender male, getting all the appropriate medical treatment BEFORE entering Olympic trials - including breast removal, hysterectomy, and hormone treatment to produce more masculine traits including lowering of voice and facial hair growth..

They should be trying out in the WOMENS' Olympics trials. Because he was born female and that's how you want it to be. Right?

I mean he's stronger, taller, has facial hair, no longer has a woman's reproductive system, or breast tissue. His hormonal balance is now that of a natural-born man, nothing more, he's not taking "extra" hormones but rather - hormone replacement. Just like a woman going through menopause takes hormone replacement. Except this one is for men, not women. But he'll be competing as a woman.

Because that's what you want.

I say - okay. That's fine.

Except that person has been taking high doses of testosterone for years, giving them a physical advantage over other women...

And yes, they are "extra" hormones, not a "replacement"...

Taking estrogen after a total hysterectomy is "replacement" therapy...

[JMintzer]

I also feel that transgender males/females shouldn't be competing for teams of the gender that doesn't match their biology. But if they compete in teams that DOES match their biology, then you'll have transgender women - who were born biologically male - competing against men. Tall women with no facial hair, no *****, wearing bras, competing with men. Because they were born with a ***** even though they no longer have one. That makes zero sense.

I'd rather see all sports open up to all genders. No more male teams and female teams. People can be on the teams selected on the merits of their abilities rather than what reproductive organs they were born with, or currently have. Yes, men are typically taller than women. But the average "random tall guy" still can't play basketball as well as the "tall chick with the full 4-year basketball scholarship at UConn."

And many of those college basketball men can't hold a candle to some of the Women Huskies.

So pick your teams with men, women, transgender, cisgender, nonbinary, whatever. If they can do the job, then they're on the team.

Then you can say goodbye to the WNBA, Women's Soccer, Tennis, Golf, Softball, Swimming, Track & Field, etc, etc, etc...

They will ALL be dominated by biological men...

[JMintzer]

And if a person's chromosomes are XX, she is biologically a female and should be allowed to compete against other females, no matter the surgeries, hormones, clothing she chooses to wear and so on. It's not fair to let her compete against biological males having XY chromosomes. It's that simple.

Good luck with that for womens' basketball, baseball, and hockey teams. That transgender male being forced to play on womens' teams because he has XX chromosomes is gonna clean up.

There are already rules against taking hormones to gain an advantage in sports...

Having a mastectomy or a hysterectomy gives no physical advantage in sports...

Women taking men's hormones does...

[Eg_cruz]

So you're saying - someone who was born with the female anatomy, grew up that way, but "came out" as a transgender male, getting all the appropriate medical treatment BEFORE entering Olympic trials - including breast removal, hysterectomy, and hormone treatment to produce more masculine traits including lowering of voice and facial hair growth..

They should be trying out in the WOMENS' Olympics trials. Because he was born female and that's how you want it to be. Right?

I mean he's stronger, taller, has facial hair, no longer has a woman's reproductive system, or breast tissue. His hormonal balance is now that of a natural-born man, nothing more, he's not taking "extra" hormones but rather - hormone replacement. Just like a woman going through menopause takes hormone replacement. Except this one is for men, not women. But he'll be competing as a woman.

Because that's what you want.

I say - okay. That's fine.
The problem with your statement is these men is, they have not completed the transformation from man to women they still have their original male reproductive organs.
So if a man dresses as a women and says he is a women, I am sorry it doesn’t make you one.

[JMintzer]

What is it about the transition process do you think will allow a formerly-female body to now "clean up" against presently-female bodies? Does the transition process redefine bone and muscle structure in some way when going from female to male? The process certainly doesn't appear to redefine those structures when going from male to female.

If a woman transitions to male, they will take male hormones, which WILL increase muscle mass... It's already illegal in many sports...

If a male transitioning to female has the "bottom surgery", they will lose testosterone production, which will result in a decrease in muscle mass.

But... If this was done after puberty, the bone structure is already set, and that alone gives a mechanical advantage...

[dewilson58]

(1)If a woman transitions to male, they will take male hormones, which WILL increase muscle mass... It's already illegal in many sports...

(2)If a male transitioning to female has the "bottom surgery", they will lose testosterone production, which will result in a decrease in muscle mass.

(3)But... If this was done after puberty, the bone structure is already set, and that alone gives a mechanical advantage...

1............good to know.

3......pre-pub "opportunities" scare the hell out of me if our society allows.

[JMintzer]

I would assume the Oly Committee and colleges and high schools and middle schools will start addressing the juices in bodies. I hope.

High Schools and Colleges are brainwashed to be "inclusive" and are loathe to stop trans women from competing... Lia Thomas is the poster er, "person" in this argument.

There were several trans track and field athletes who beat teenagers out of scholarships to college...

[JMintzer]

And how many trans people make the Olympics? Very very few in either the Summer or Winter Olympics. And there are many Olympic sports which highlight technical abilities developed over years of experience rather than just physical attributes.

A case-by-case approach would be far easier.

Since this is a relatively new phenomena, one would not expect to see that many trans athletes competing on an olympic level... Yet...

And I agree, I doubt you'll see it in women's gymnastics and a few other highly specialized sports.

But... If nothing is done, Lea Thomas will swim in the Olympics and beat many women. You will see it in women's basketball, ice skating, skiing, biathlon, cycling, track & field, etc, etc, etc...

[JMintzer]

the only solution is to have trans compete against the other trans, in a category all their own

Then you would need 4 categories... Male, Female, Trans Male, Trans female...

[LuvNH]

Makes sense but who would pay to watch it?

Other trans gender people and peeping toms.

[JMintzer]

1............good to know.

3......pre-pub "opportunities" scare the hell out of me if our society allows.

To your 2nd ... er 3rd? comment? I agree...

[JMintzer]

To your 2nd ... er 3rd? comment? I agree...

Ah... I see you added numbers to my post...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/dd/4a/6add4ae35c0cf597802322fd048b38ff.gif

[dewilson58]

Then you would need 4 categories... Male, Female, Trans Male, Trans female...

& then categories for short people, fat people, blondes, seven fingers, beards, different bra cup sizes...................where does it stop??


a young person could identify as a 60 year old and play in the Senior Games.

:oops:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The problem with your statement is these men is, they have not completed the transformation from man to women they still have their original male reproductive organs.
So if a man dresses as a women and says he is a women, I am sorry it doesn’t make you one.

This has nothing to do with "dressing as a woman." That would be a transvestite.

And the problem is that some people want someone to discriminate against because their fragile egos can't handle the fact that they might actually be somewhat less of a human than the rest of the human race.

Currently, it's transgenders. The cycle will turn back to blacks in a month or two, and then it's time again for the Muslims, and then it'll be the Jews again.

[JMintzer]

This has nothing to do with "dressing as a woman." That would be a transvestite.

And the problem is that some people want someone to discriminate against because their fragile egos can't handle the fact that they might actually be somewhat less of a human than the rest of the human race.

Currently, it's transgenders. The cycle will turn back to blacks in a month or two, and then it's time again for the Muslims, and then it'll be the Jews again.

Give me a freakin' break...

[JMintzer]

This has nothing to do with "dressing as a woman." That would be a transvestite.

And that is exactly what many trans women are doing... No hormones, no surgery. Just claiming to be women...

Many have become parodies of women. Dylan Mulvaney (of Bud Light fame) is a perfect example...

[Stu from NYC]

And that is exactly what many trans women are doing... No hormones, no surgery. Just claiming to be women...

Many have become parodies of women. Dylan Mulvaney (of Bud Light fame) is a perfect example...

Given that females are going to lose scholarships to trans females, one would think the vast majority of real females would be rather upset as to where this is going.

[Cybersprings]

This has nothing to do with "dressing as a woman." That would be a transvestite.

And the problem is that some people want someone to discriminate against because their fragile egos can't handle the fact that they might actually be somewhat less of a human than the rest of the human race.

Currently, it's transgenders. The cycle will turn back to blacks in a month or two, and then it's time again for the Muslims, and then it'll be the Jews again.

As I replied to you 3 pages ago, you can accuse people of trying to discriminate all you want, but you are still WRONG. It is about FAIRNESS in sports competition. You can keep repeating a lie all day long and it is still a lie!

It is you who want to descriminate against and oppress biological females.

[Cybersprings]

I agree with the last part, and I don't care about sports anyway. But I don't think a "no transgenders allowed" is the right tack to take on this. I don't know what is the right tack, the idea of mixed teams seems more fair to me. And sure - even a transgender classification would be fine. If it's a mixed team, they'd have the same shot as any cis-gender man or woman at making the team.

Why do you hate women and want to take away their opportunity to compete in sports by making them compete against males and calling it "fair"??? A trans woman competing against a cis-woman would not have the same shot at making the team. That is why this thread even exists.
The transwoman would have a much greater chance to make the team because of testosterone and the effects it had on his body. If they had the same shot as a cis-gender woman at making the team that would mean they had almost no chance. They don't compete against men because they lose. Are the facts and logic tripping you up for some reason? You can't just say all men and women compete against each other is fair and have that statement magically be true. Men do have an advantage...follow the science.

[Aces4]

This has nothing to do with "dressing as a woman." That would be a transvestite.

And the problem is that some people want someone to discriminate against because their fragile egos can't handle the fact that they might actually be somewhat less of a human than the rest of the human race.

Currently, it's transgenders. The cycle will turn back to blacks in a month or two, and then it's time again for the Muslims, and then it'll be the Jews again.

I don’t feel that’s the case in any of this discussion.

The point being driven home is biological women are entitled to compete against each other exclusively. Not every fact of life can be leveled out by wishful thinking and this is the perfect example. Men who prefer to be women are fully entitled to that choice. They cannot, however change their biology to be able to compete at the same level as woman. It’s wrong and as simple as that.

All the extra posturing trying to make women sit back and allow a separate classification of gender choices punish and discriminate against their biological bodies is ridiculous. Anyone with any level of intellect and social conscience knows this.

[jimbomaybe]

[QUOTE=Cybersprings;2216710]As I replied to you 3 pages ago, you can accuse people of trying to discriminate all you want, but you are still WRONG. It is about FAIRNESS in sports competition. You can keep repeating a lie all day long and it is still a lie!

It is you who want to descriminate against and oppress biological females.

Of course its a lie, nonsense, that's why if you do not accept the lie you must have some sort of malicious reasoning a hateful individual , what else is left when facts don't fit?

[La lamy]

:bigbow:
Right thing to do as far as I'm concerned. I'm all for allowing people to choose their own identity, but definitely not for transgenders to cross over athletically.

[Worldseries27]

The major countries should pull out and form a counter
Olympics nearby. Wonder where the cameras would be

[Cobullymom]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.
All I can say is GOOD, there needs to be a ban..It’s already been proven it would not be fair competition. End of story.

[Ldogg21]

I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care.

BUT, that being said, I agree that transgender women should not be competing against female athletes who were born female. This is not just about the Olympics, it is about all levels of sports, from informal competitions to the awarding of scholarships. Height and strength can make all the difference in athletic competition……

Let’s be fair.

Boomer the Moderate (an endangered species)

Easy answer. Set up a separate division for transgenders. Let them compete against each other. Men vs men, women vs women, transgender vs transgender

[Topgun 1776]

I also feel that transgender males/females shouldn't be competing for teams of the gender that doesn't match their biology. But if they compete in teams that DOES match their biology, then you'll have transgender women - who were born biologically male - competing against men. Tall women with no facial hair, no *****, wearing bras, competing with men. Because they were born with a ***** even though they no longer have one. That makes zero sense.

I'd rather see all sports open up to all genders. No more male teams and female teams. People can be on the teams selected on the merits of their abilities rather than what reproductive organs they were born with, or currently have. Yes, men are typically taller than women. But the average "random tall guy" still can't play basketball as well as the "tall chick with the full 4-year basketball scholarship at UConn."

And many of those college basketball men can't hold a candle to some of the Women Huskies.

So pick your teams with men, women, transgender, cisgender, nonbinary, whatever. If they can do the job, then they're on the team.
I'm wondering if you have ever participated in sports? None of that diatribe is anywhere near reality in the world of sports competition.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

If they were women, I'd agree.

Sometimes, reality stomps on in and crushes our most cherished fantasies.

yes, very true, and happens to every human at different times. .

behavioral law:
all humans want to be equal, but individuals want to be special

[Catfishjeff]

Easy solution: Create a transgender category or an all gender category.

[mikeycereal]

From day 1 when I saw a news clip about a biological male breaking female records at a school I was against it. There's nothing fair about it. Males have bigger muscles and more stamina and stronger breathing.

It seemed like more and more were jumping on the "let them compete" bandwagon, with only few (the opposing young females and their parents complaining). Though this does not affect me either way, I'm happy to see more bans on this issue and would like to see it world wide to include schools.

If not banning then biological male trans can still compete, but against the same trans from other schools. Not enough to compete? Give it some time. We can still include them on the girls' teams and they sit out if none of them are on the other side and play when they are for now.

This should have never even been an issue, but somehow it came to be. The different world we live in.

[Andyb]

Are you serious?

[Byte1]

I think that is a silly and completely illogical response to serious issue. No individual or family with children facing a sexual identity issue takes this lightly or treats it as a running joke. No one “wakes up one morning” deciding they are actually of a different sex - it is typically the consequence of years of nagging doubts, frustration and fear, and incredible heartache from trying to fit into the expectations of others and facing the most incredible cruelty when they don’t. Most Villagers are old enough and experienced enough to have met people from all walks of life and know that we are not all cut from the same cloth and sexuality is not some hard and fast rule that everyone fits into neatly. I am not speaking to the issue of athletic competition but to all the demeaning, thoughtless, crude and silly comments that this issue provokes.

It's called abnormal behavior. A mental condition that should be addressed, not encouraged.

The Olympics authorities have drug testing for a reason. Enhancement drugs of any kind are prohibited, period. So a woman that has hormone therapy should NOT be allowed to participate. A man that "THINKS" he is a woman, dresses like one and identifies as one is not allowed to participate in female sports, period. What is so unreasonable about that?
If a guy wishes to imagine being a female, dress like one and act like one, that is fine. But, if he wishes to identify as one for sports, employment, benefits of any kind...he should be charged with fraud regardless of his mental state. That would be IF/IF they had such a charge...and they should. That's my opinion, and that does not make me intolerant, I just don't condone that kind of encouraged abnormal behavior. And don't try to convince me that this issue is anything other than abnormal behavior. It is not hate speech, just recognizing a scientific fact, that there is male DNA and there is female DNA. Pretend all you want, but pretending is a mental issue and pretending does not make fact.
We are not the only country participating in the Olympics. Other countries have a say also. If they wish to discriminate, we have very little to say in the matter.
A horse cannot participate in a dog race and the dog cannot participate in a horse race.

[Andyb]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.
Wonder how God feels about it?

[Bay Kid]

Where are the woman libber's? This should never be allowed. No common sense in this country anymore.

[bsouthworth47@yahoo.com]

Agree men should not be able to compete in women's sports. The only reason they want to is because they are not good enough to compete and win in men's sports.

[MandoMan]

I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care.

BUT, that being said, I agree that transgender women should not be competing against female athletes who were born female. This is not just about the Olympics, it is about all levels of sports, from informal competitions to the awarding of scholarships. Height and strength can make all the difference in athletic competition……

Let’s be fair.

Boomer the Moderate (an endangered species)

I agree. Gender Dysphoria is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR) as a “mental disorder.” It’s not a fun way to live, the way some teens and activists seem to see it, but a substantial disability that can make life difficult and unhappy, rather like obsessive-compulsive disorder or manic depression or autism or even like a limp or a bad stutter. It has never been a “normal” way to be. It’s good to help people deal with this disease, but that shouldn’t mean pretending that it is just another normal way of being. It’s okay to provide accessibility where appropriate, but if transgender people want to compete in sports, let them compete in the Special Olympics.

[Steve]

That is the correct thing to do, transgender people do not lose their muscle structure and it is true that men going up against women, the men will win most of the time. I reverse it is an uphill battle for them so it is fair for them to compete. It is most fair for woman working to compete to be able to compete equally.

I remember when Annika Sorenstam competed against the men in a couple of PGA tour events and was applauded for doing so. She was competing UP, and I say good for her. But if Rory McIlroy wanted to compete in an LPGA event that would be grossly unfair--even if he wore a skirt. That's exactly what these transgender athletes want to do, have an unfair advantage. Like the transgender swimmer who defeated the best of the women swimmers...what has he/she (?) really accomplished? He couldn't beat his male counterparts but he beat the female swimmers. So what?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I don’t feel that’s the case in any of this discussion.

The point being driven home is biological women are entitled to compete against each other exclusively. Not every fact of life can be leveled out by wishful thinking and this is the perfect example. Men who prefer to be women are fully entitled to that choice. They cannot, however change their biology to be able to compete at the same level as woman. It’s wrong and as simple as that.

All the extra posturing trying to make women sit back and allow a separate classification of gender choices punish and discriminate against their biological bodies is ridiculous. Anyone with any level of intellect and social conscience knows this.

I'm saying it has to go both ways, and the wording of the laws is unfair and discriminatory. It's saying that transgender WOMEN - only - should not be allowed to join women-only teams. It says nothing about transgender MEN not being allowed to join men-only teams.

If you want to say "transgender people should not be able to join cis-gender teams, but we will have mixed teams and/or transgender-only teams" then that's fine. But singling out transgender women is - discriminatory. By definition.

Regardless of WHY. I even agree with the sentiment. But it's a sticky wicket - what about natural born hermaphrodites? There are humans born with both male and female gonads, raised as male, but not exclusively male. They are also female. Which team would THEY play on? Or should they be excluded from playing on ANY team?

There are also intersex folks - they have a p..e.n..is (can't use a normal scientific word on a forum whose membership is comprised of adults - that's just so pathetic), but they also have ovaries. Or they might have a v.a..gin-a (again) but the musculature and hormones of a man. Or other odd mutations of the reproductive system that makes them neither male, nor female, but a little of both. Which team do THEY get to play on? Or should they also be excluded from playing on ANY team?

This is why it's an issue. Not because these folks want to play "as male/female" on a team. But because - their physiology puts them in an awkward position. They want to play sports. There's no reason to deprive them of the opportunity to play sports. But where do you put them? ALL of them. Not just the trans-women.

[nn0wheremann]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.
In 72 years I have made the acquaintance of three transgender people. There are not so many of them in the world as to justify all the concern and hot air expended over them.

[PugMom]

Given that females are going to lose scholarships to trans females, one would think the vast majority of real females would be rather upset as to where this is going.

i'm sure the females are just as upset, but this being new territory, are unsure of how to proceed. who do they go to? a coach? the media which will certainly turn on a female & demonizer her till the cows come home? right now they're keeping mouths shut of our fear for their own careers. theyre being forced to be quiet & take it, or,..thats what it appears to be from where i'm sitting

[Taltarzac725]

i'm sure the females are just as upset, but this being new territory, are unsure of how to proceed. who do they go to? a coach? the media which will certainly turn on a female & demonizer her till the cows come home? right now they're keeping mouths shut of our fear for their own careers. theyre being forced to be quiet & take it, or,..thats what it appears to be from where i'm sitting

This whole matter only applies to men who have had a sex change running against women in the Summer Olympics.
World Rankings | Women's Overall Ranking (https://worldathletics.org/world-rankings/overall-ranking/null)

I would bet most men runners would have a hard time competing with these women unless they had the same kind of training, commitment to their sport and experience.

[Bill14564]

I'm saying it has to go both ways, and the wording of the laws is unfair and discriminatory. It's saying that transgender WOMEN - only - should not be allowed to join women-only teams. It says nothing about transgender MEN not being allowed to join men-only teams.

If you want to say "transgender people should not be able to join cis-gender teams, but we will have mixed teams and/or transgender-only teams" then that's fine. But singling out transgender women is - discriminatory. By definition.

...



Isn't it the case today that women can try out for men's teams? Less likely to succeed due to the difference in body structure but still allowed? At the same time, it isn't the case that men can try out for women's teams, right?

The discrimination you point out is in place today - we call it protecting women's sports.

What happens in someone's brain, the gender that feels comfortable to them or the sex of those they feel attracted to, doesn't determine their physical characteristics. It is the physical characteristics of a biological male that makes it harmful to allow them to compete in a women's sport. That seems to me to be a pretty fair dividing line.

Handle other edge cases as they come up. Today, the issue is trans-women. Today, biological women are being harmed when biological men are allowed to compete in women's sports. Solve today's problem today.

[Burgy]

The simple answer is. Athletes should compete as XX or XY. Hormones and surgery do not change your DNA. And everyone should at least be tolerant if not supportive or transgender people.

[Regorp]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.

This is the right thing to do for women to have a fair chance to win. Perhaps a new trans division should be established for them to participate.

[Joe C.]

Complicated issue ??

IMHO, if you were born with a *****, you are MALE.
If not, then you are FEMALE.
If you are male and "feel" that you are female or vice versa, then it's a mental/emotional issue.
Too bad. You are WHAT you are.
If you were born with both genitalia, then you have a physiological issue, and this is the true issue of transgenderism. THAT is the issue that must be focused on.

[Aces4]

I'm saying it has to go both ways, and the wording of the laws is unfair and discriminatory. It's saying that transgender WOMEN - only - should not be allowed to join women-only teams. It says nothing about transgender MEN not being allowed to join men-only teams.

If you want to say "transgender people should not be able to join cis-gender teams, but we will have mixed teams and/or transgender-only teams" then that's fine. But singling out transgender women is - discriminatory. By definition.

Regardless of WHY. I even agree with the sentiment. But it's a sticky wicket - what about natural born hermaphrodites? There are humans born with both male and female gonads, raised as male, but not exclusively male. They are also female. Which team would THEY play on? Or should they be excluded from playing on ANY team?

There are also intersex folks - they have a p..e.n..is (can't use a normal scientific word on a forum whose membership is comprised of adults - that's just so pathetic), but they also have ovaries. Or they might have a v.a..gin-a (again) but the musculature and hormones of a man. Or other odd mutations of the reproductive system that makes them neither male, nor female, but a little of both. Which team do THEY get to play on? Or should they also be excluded from playing on ANY team?

This is why it's an issue. Not because these folks want to play "as male/female" on a team. But because - their physiology puts them in an awkward position. They want to play sports. There's no reason to deprive them of the opportunity to play sports. But where do you put them? ALL of them. Not just the trans-women.

I’m well aware of the different sex anomalies and I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to comprehend a separate classification for these individuals. If it feels discriminatory, then discriminate with biological female and biological male teams.

Hermaphrodites normally receive hormone therapy from a young age after a sex has been selected and mature accordingly. As I said, rather than ruin biological female sports, a new classification is needed for those with sexual anomalies so they can compete with comparable individuals.

[Wondering]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.
We have a Special Olympics. Why not have a Transgender Olympics? Makes sense to me. Then everyone should be happy.

[Fltpkr]

"It's called abnormal behavior. A mental condition that should be addressed, not encouraged." How many human lives have been made and will be made miserable by that type of thinking?

[Bill14564]

/// misunderstood the point of the comment I was replying to ///

[Johnsocat]

As a woman who served 24 years in the military, I am grateful for the opportunities made available to me by the women (and men) who have fought for women's rights.
It angers me that men are now claiming those rights and protections, which diminishes and negates what those ancestors fought so hard for.

[JMintzer]

Given that females are going to lose scholarships to trans females, one would think the vast majority of real females would be rather upset as to where this is going.

One would think that...

But, so many have been brainwashed into believing that being upset at that makes you "phobic"...

[JMintzer]

I'm saying it has to go both ways, and the wording of the laws is unfair and discriminatory. It's saying that transgender WOMEN - only - should not be allowed to join women-only teams. It says nothing about transgender MEN not being allowed to join men-only teams.

If you want to say "transgender people should not be able to join cis-gender teams, but we will have mixed teams and/or transgender-only teams" then that's fine. But singling out transgender women is - discriminatory. By definition.

Regardless of WHY. I even agree with the sentiment. But it's a sticky wicket - what about natural born hermaphrodites? There are humans born with both male and female gonads, raised as male, but not exclusively male. They are also female. Which team would THEY play on? Or should they be excluded from playing on ANY team?

There are also intersex folks - they have a p..e.n..is (can't use a normal scientific word on a forum whose membership is comprised of adults - that's just so pathetic), but they also have ovaries. Or they might have a v.a..gin-a (again) but the musculature and hormones of a man. Or other odd mutations of the reproductive system that makes them neither male, nor female, but a little of both. Which team do THEY get to play on? Or should they also be excluded from playing on ANY team?

This is why it's an issue. Not because these folks want to play "as male/female" on a team. But because - their physiology puts them in an awkward position. They want to play sports. There's no reason to deprive them of the opportunity to play sports. But where do you put them? ALL of them. Not just the trans-women.

Trans men don't compete with cis men because they know they will lose. Plain and simple...

And please, yes we all know about the EXTREMELY RARE cases of genetic mutations during gestation, resulting in intersex individuals. But that discussion is nothing but a red herring... Nice try.

[JMintzer]

In 72 years I have made the acquaintance of three transgender people. There are not so many of them in the world as to justify all the concern and hot air expended over them.

Except that recent polls have shown that 25% of HS students now identify as LGBT(etc). It seems to be a new trend... Personally, I think it's due to social media...

[JMintzer]

This whole matter only applies to men who have had a sex change running against women in the Summer Olympics.
World Rankings | Women's Overall Ranking (https://worldathletics.org/world-rankings/overall-ranking/null)

I would bet most men runners would have a hard time competing with these women unless they had the same kind of training, commitment to their sport and experience.

There is no "requirement" for anyone to have had a "sex change". And that is part of the problem.

And you think that "most men runners would have a hard time competing with these women unless they had the same kind of training, commitment to their sport and experience."? Well, no kidding! Of course you need training to run competitively at ANY level... But that has NOTHING to do with the conversation...

[JMintzer]

Isn't it the case today that women can try out for men's teams? Less likely to succeed due to the difference in body structure but still allowed? At the same time, it isn't the case that men can try out for women's teams, right?

The discrimination you point out is in place today - we call it protecting women's sports.

What happens in someone's brain, the gender that feels comfortable to them or the sex of those they feel attracted to, doesn't determine their physical characteristics. It is the physical characteristics of a biological male that makes it harmful to allow them to compete in a women's sport. That seems to me to be a pretty fair dividing line.

Handle other edge cases as they come up. Today, the issue is trans-women. Today, biological women are being harmed when biological men are allowed to compete in women's sports. Solve today's problem today.

Prezactly! I can only think of a handful of women who tried to compete with men. They all failed...

Annika Sorenstam
Michelle Wei
Babe Didrikson Zaharias and a few others...

Women Playing Men in Golf (https://www.topendsports.com/sport/golf/women-versus-men.htm)

And then, there are these women... NONE of them played close to a top tier level...

Meet The Trailblazing Female Athletes Competing With Men - Worldcrunch (https://worldcrunch.com/culture-society/best-women-athletes)

[Boomer]

Except that recent polls have shown that 25% of HS students now identify as LGBT(etc). It seems to be a new trend... Personally, I think it's due to social media...


Oh, puhleese — that is a ridiculous statement……

Please cite your source.

Boomer

[Cybersprings]

Oh, puhleese — that is a ridiculous statement……

Please cite your source.

Boomer
(deleted text copied from an article to avoid getting TOTV in trouble)

Scary, isn't it?

[Taltarzac725]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.

This is the topic and not transgenders competing in all sports. A woman who used to be a man can run in the Paris 2024 Olympics with the men. And what would seem fairer is just exactly are this contestant's abilities? Maybe they are slower than all the men?

[Cybersprings]

Oh, puhleese — that is a ridiculous statement……

Please cite your source.

Boomer

2 posts in the discussion. 1 calling an easily verifiable factual statement ridiculous and the other calling people who are trying to stand up to protect women as vile.

Quite the record....

[manaboutown]

This is the topic and not transgenders competing in all sports. A woman who used to be a man can run in the Paris 2024 Olympics with the men.

There is no such thing as "a woman who used to be a man" as the individual does not have XX chromosomes or a uterus, no matter the hormones, surgeries and female attire. It is biologically impossible! Such a man can only attempt to appear to be a woman.

[Taltarzac725]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2owT63VIk

"Lindsey Vonn: I’d probably die skiing against men".

I did find this interesting-- a top woman skier who petitioned to compete against the men.

[Cybersprings]

A woman who used to be a man can run in the Paris 2024 Olympics with the men. And what would seem fairer is just exactly are this contestant's abilities? Maybe they are slower than all the men?

So what exactly is your point. If my times were slower than all them men, i.e. I would lose, let me compete against the women to improve my odds?

Do you come up with these ridiculous comments all by yourself or do you have help?

[Worldseries27]

i'm a women's rights person and i think this is great news. It is very unfair for women to have to compete against a man in women's clothing.
spot on. I would exchange " unfair" for "criminal intent" to fix a contest. Let the transgenders play sports in their own leagues and contests

[Worldseries27]

i think that is a silly and completely illogical response to serious issue. No individual or family with children facing a sexual identity issue takes this lightly or treats it as a running joke. No one “wakes up one morning” deciding they are actually of a different sex - it is typically the consequence of years of nagging doubts, frustration and fear, and incredible heartache from trying to fit into the expectations of others and facing the most incredible cruelty when they don’t. Most villagers are old enough and experienced enough to have met people from all walks of life and know that we are not all cut from the same cloth and sexuality is not some hard and fast rule that everyone fits into neatly. I am not speaking to the issue of athletic competition but to all the demeaning, thoughtless, crude and silly comments that this issue provokes.
no jokes, their transgender issues are their problem not ours

[Worldseries27]

as a woman who served 24 years in the military, i am grateful for the opportunities made available to me by the women (and men) who have fought for women's rights.
It angers me that men are now claiming those rights and protections, which diminishes and negates what those ancestors fought so hard for.
thank you for your service. Could you please explain a little more about your posting. Do not want to prejudge it.

[Taltarzac725]

I think that is a silly and completely illogical response to serious issue. No individual or family with children facing a sexual identity issue takes this lightly or treats it as a running joke. No one “wakes up one morning” deciding they are actually of a different sex - it is typically the consequence of years of nagging doubts, frustration and fear, and incredible heartache from trying to fit into the expectations of others and facing the most incredible cruelty when they don’t. Most Villagers are old enough and experienced enough to have met people from all walks of life and know that we are not all cut from the same cloth and sexuality is not some hard and fast rule that everyone fits into neatly. I am not speaking to the issue of athletic competition but to all the demeaning, thoughtless, crude and silly comments that this issue provokes.

Nice to see some empathy and some class on here.

[ThirdOfFive]

I remember when Annika Sorenstam competed against the men in a couple of PGA tour events and was applauded for doing so. She was competing UP, and I say good for her. But if Rory McIlroy wanted to compete in an LPGA event that would be grossly unfair--even if he wore a skirt. That's exactly what these transgender athletes want to do, have an unfair advantage. Like the transgender swimmer who defeated the best of the women swimmers...what has he/she (?) really accomplished? He couldn't b
eat his male counterparts but he beat the female swimmers. So what?

Interesting, that this does not seem to be too much of an issue among the top performers of whatever sport is in question, except when there are big bucks to be made in these male vs. female deals such as the one quoted about Annika Sorenstam, Venus & Serena Williams, etc. The fringe participants? Another story...

I strongly doubt that sports competition, or whatever advantage one does or does not have, is the real issue here. Like all too much in our society today, IMO, the bulk of this is about MeMeMe. Attention. Your name in this-or-that publication. An interview or two for middling dollars. Maybe a paperback book sold for a ridiculous price at airports or in the $5 bin at Barnes & Noble. And maybe--just maybe--if you make enough noise--an appearance on Oprah. Or some such.

And we buy into the hype: not in any way legitimizing it, but we surely do encourage it.

[Cybersprings]

Originally Posted by Fltpkr View Post
I think that is a silly and completely illogical response to serious issue. No individual or family with children facing a sexual identity issue takes this lightly or treats it as a running joke. No one “wakes up one morning” deciding they are actually of a different sex - it is typically the consequence of years of nagging doubts, frustration and fear, and incredible heartache from trying to fit into the expectations of others and facing the most incredible cruelty when they don’t. Most Villagers are old enough and experienced enough to have met people from all walks of life and know that we are not all cut from the same cloth and sexuality is not some hard and fast rule that everyone fits into neatly. I am not speaking to the issue of athletic competition but to all the demeaning, thoughtless, crude and silly comments that this issue provokes.
Nice to see some empathy and some class on here.

1. The person specifically said they were not speaking about the issue of athletic competition. You should have correct them and let them know that we are only talking about women running in the Olympics.
2. The person said they were speaking to all the "demeaning, thoughtless, crude and silly comments that this issue provokes."
Well the issue may provoke that from some people, but it has not occurred on this thread. The overwhelming response has been, let them dress, act, surgically alter however and whatever they want. Just do not try to cheat biological women in sports.

Class is not accusing people of something not being done.

Compassion and empathy is realizing that trans people have a mental disorder (according to DSM-V) which needs to be treated not re-inforced. Imagine if we were compassionate and empathetic with anorexics by saying, Yep, you are fat. Let us help you diet and purge more.

[ThirdOfFive]

I'm saying it has to go both ways, and the wording of the laws is unfair and discriminatory. It's saying that transgender WOMEN - only - should not be allowed to join women-only teams. It says nothing about transgender MEN not being allowed to join men-only teams.

If you want to say "transgender people should not be able to join cis-gender teams, but we will have mixed teams and/or transgender-only teams" then that's fine. But singling out transgender women is - discriminatory. By definition.

Regardless of WHY. I even agree with the sentiment. But it's a sticky wicket - what about natural born hermaphrodites? There are humans born with both male and female gonads, raised as male, but not exclusively male. They are also female. Which team would THEY play on? Or should they be excluded from playing on ANY team?

There are also intersex folks - they have a p..e.n..is (can't use a normal scientific word on a forum whose membership is comprised of adults - that's just so pathetic), but they also have ovaries. Or they might have a v.a..gin-a (again) but the musculature and hormones of a man. Or other odd mutations of the reproductive system that makes them neither male, nor female, but a little of both. Which team do THEY get to play on? Or should they also be excluded from playing on ANY team?

This is why it's an issue. Not because these folks want to play "as male/female" on a team. But because - their physiology puts them in an awkward position. They want to play sports. There's no reason to deprive them of the opportunity to play sports. But where do you put them? ALL of them. Not just the trans-women.
If you can name five such people who actually have this condition and who (keeping it in the scope of this thread) legitimately would qualify otherwise to compete in the Olympics, I'll grant the point. Otherwise it is mere sophistry.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If you can name five such people who actually have this condition and who (keeping it in the scope of this thread) legitimately would qualify otherwise to compete in the Olympics, I'll grant the point. Otherwise it is mere sophistry.

I'll assume that there wouldn't be any, because they've already been told they had to live with the shame of being "other" and no one would pick them anyway as a result. On the other hand, if being something other than straight hetero biological AND psychological male or female only were accepted by society - not as "common" but as "not an aberration/defect of nature worthy of scorn and shame" then there might well have been some, by now.

It's not sophistry. It's called acceptance of "other" even if you don't understand it, or like it, and trying to include everyone in whatever capacity they are able and interested.

No one needs a participation trophy. But everyone should have the opportunity to participate.

[Worldseries27]

i'll assume that there wouldn't be any, because they've already been told they had to live with the shame of being "other" and no one would pick them anyway as a result. On the other hand, if being something other than straight hetero biological and psychological male or female only were accepted by society - not as "common" but as "not an aberration/defect of nature worthy of scorn and shame" then there might well have been some, by now.

It's not sophistry. It's called acceptance of "other" even if you don't understand it, or like it, and trying to include everyone in whatever capacity they are able and interested.

No one needs a participation trophy. But everyone should have the opportunity to participate.
yes, participate by all means, in their own lanes.

[Cybersprings]

yes, participate by all means, in their own lanes.

So very simple.

[Cybersprings]

No one needs a participation trophy. But everyone should have the opportunity to participate.

Are you suggesting that everyone should have the opportunity to participate in whatever category they choose, regardless of fairness of competition?

[Taltarzac725]

Say if Bruce Jenner wanted to run at the 2024 Paris Olympics as a woman? Everyone would know that she had been a he. And the same would probably be the case with any Olympian at the Paris 2024 Olympics as to get to that level of competition you have to have become something of a celebrity in your country while qualifying for the Olympics.

[DAVES]

It has been announced that transgender women are banned from running in the 2024 Olympics against women. Some transgender comments about denying them the opportunity to participate. They are not being denied the opportunity. They just have to compete against people of their biological sex. Kind of like letting a heavyweight average boxer compete against a lightweight boxer. XY against XY, not XY against XX. Sports events are looking for the best, not the best imposter. If an XX wants to compete against an XY, let it happen, If a lightweight wants to compete against a heavyweight, let it happen. Go up to your best not down to your best.

A new issue but not a new issue. Many years ago the Russians treated their female athletes with male hormones. Truth i do not recall if they were allowed to compete or keep medals earned. I do recall reading that the women had psychological problems and many could not have children.

I recall a supreme court justice saying any attempt to define pornography must fail but I will know it when I see it. Transgender is simply not natural. We've all seen that.

[DAVES]

Are you suggesting that everyone should have the opportunity to participate in whatever category they choose, regardless of fairness of competition?

Fair, what is fair. I should win a gold Olympic medal for being several times 20 and sitting on my butt posting. I am working out right now.

[Aces4]

I'll assume that there wouldn't be any, because they've already been told they had to live with the shame of being "other" and no one would pick them anyway as a result. On the other hand, if being something other than straight hetero biological AND psychological male or female only were accepted by society - not as "common" but as "not an aberration/defect of nature worthy of scorn and shame" then there might well have been some, by now.

It's not sophistry. It's called acceptance of "other" even if you don't understand it, or like it, and trying to include everyone in whatever capacity they are able and interested.

No one needs a participation trophy. But everyone should have the opportunity to participate.

Why would you shame transgenders? I don’t get that but perhaps you could tell us that we need to get rid of The Special Olympics.:shrug::shrug:

[Rainger99]

Currently, it's transgenders. The cycle will turn back to blacks in a month or two, and then it's time again for the Muslims, and then it'll be the Jews again.

Let’s revisit that comment around July 4 to see if you are correct.

[JMintzer]

Oh, puhleese — that is a ridiculous statement……

Please cite your source.

Boomer

I'm sorry, I misspoke... It was only 20.8%...

Is NBC good enough for you?

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-760w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2022-07/MTP-FS-DATA-DOWNLOAD-32022-07-03-1-8ab7a2.png

This one says just under 20%...

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/18228.jpeg

Oh, look, over 20%!

https://c-hit.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/LGBTQ-Gallup-poll-1-771x578.png

Any other questions?

[Taltarzac725]

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression (https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression)

I recall going to a movie with a class of high school students (mainly Native Americans) around 1975 and going to see Little Big Man. The movie had a character who dressed and acted the part of female tribal members. Cross-dressed to Kill: 20 Great Movie/TV Dudes in Drag | EW.com (https://ew.com/gallery/cross-dressed-kill-20-great-movietv-dudes-drag/)

Little Big Man - Rotten Tomatoes (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/little_big_man)

Really do not see such behavior though as natural or unnatural. Maybe socially conditioned to see things one way.

[JMintzer]

A report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, released on Thursday, reveals that nearly one-fourth of high school students identify as LGBTQ, based on 2021 data from 17,508 students in 152 schools across the country. In contrast, 75.5% of students identify as heterosexual.

According to the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System, the number of LGBTQ students has increased by 11% from 2015 to 2021. This significant uptick may be due to the wording surrounding students who are questioning their sexuality, the researchers note.

Scary, isn't it?

Oh, Puleeze... Boomer says that's ridiculous...

[Worldseries27]

To all thread starters
1. If a transgender to female won the u.s.a. Presidency would the glass ceiling be broken. How about only yes or no answers like a voting machine reduces it to.
2nd
why does the above transgender issues remind me of cowardly males on the titanic who impersonated females to save their own lives by dooming women and children alike.
3. Disney claimed its workers prevailed upon them to take the social stand on our children's education that it has.
A. Please give us a head count of the number of employees who did so.
B. What percentage of your employees does that number represent.
3. I'm holding my breath

[JMintzer]

This is the topic and not transgenders competing in all sports. A woman who used to be a man can run in the Paris 2024 Olympics with the men. And what would seem fairer is just exactly are this contestant's abilities? Maybe they are slower than all the men?

Then they should run in the men's division... Win or lose...

Their abilities have nothing to do with who they run against...

A mediocre male college runner can easily beat a top college female runner...

Same with Olympic runners...

[JMintzer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2owT63VIk

"Lindsey Vonn: I’d probably die skiing against men".

I did find this interesting-- a top woman skier who petitioned to compete against the men.

And she states that she didn't think she would ever beat the top male skiers...

[ThirdOfFive]

Then they should run in the men's division... Win or lose...

Their abilities have nothing to do with who they run against...

A mediocre male college runner can easily beat a top college female runner...

Same with Olympic runners...
Yep.

But how about this for a solution? Three categories--high school, college, pro, Olympics, whatever.

1. Men
2. Women
3. Other

[Taltarzac725]

Olympic Runner Caster Semenya Wants To Compete, Not Defend Her Womanhood : Live Updates: The Tokyo Olympics : NPR (https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/07/28/1021503989/women-runners-testosterone-olympics)

And then there are women born women who have too high testosterone levels.

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya)

[Bill14564]

To all thread starters
1. If a transgender to female won the u.s.a. Presidency would the glass ceiling be broken. How about only yes or no answers like a voting machine reduces it to.
2nd
why does the above transgender issues remind me of cowardly males on the titanic who impersonated females to save their own lives by dooming women and children alike.
3. Disney claimed its workers prevailed upon them to take the social stand on our children's education that it has.
A. Please give us a head count of the number of employees who did so.
B. What percentage of your employees does that number represent.
3. I'm holding my breath

1. Yes
2nd. Sounds like a personal issue
3. You'll have to contact Disney for that information. It is highly unlikely that they are monitoring this forum just waiting for your inquiry. While we have experts in everything on these boards, only Disney would have any such polling results
3. (again?) You should have numbered the questions before holding your breath; the lack of oxygen appears to have had a negative effect.

[JMintzer]

I'll assume that there wouldn't be any, because they've already been told they had to live with the shame of being "other" and no one would pick them anyway as a result. On the other hand, if being something other than straight hetero biological AND psychological male or female only were accepted by society - not as "common" but as "not an aberration/defect of nature worthy of scorn and shame" then there might well have been some, by now.

It's not sophistry. It's called acceptance of "other" even if you don't understand it, or like it, and trying to include everyone in whatever capacity they are able and interested.

No one needs a participation trophy. But everyone should have the opportunity to participate.

Nice kumbaya response... But it's irrelevant to the discussion...

No one says people can't live however they want (okay, a few do, but they're in the minority)...

This conversation is about biological MEN competing against biological WOMEN. Biology gives the MEN a significant advantage.

[Cybersprings]

Olympic Runner Caster Semenya Wants To Compete, Not Defend Her Womanhood : Live Updates: The Tokyo Olympics : NPR (https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/07/28/1021503989/women-runners-testosterone-olympics)

And then there are women born women who have too high testosterone levels.

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya)

From the very article you referenced"

(deleted the text to avoid getting TOTV in trouble)

XY chromosomes - not female.
Notice the article does not say that she was born female --that is intentionally omitted. So, no, this is not about "women born women who have too high testosterone"

[JMintzer]

Say if Bruce Jenner wanted to run at the 2024 Paris Olympics as a woman? Everyone would know that she had been a he. And the same would probably be the case with any Olympian at the Paris 2024 Olympics as to get to that level of competition you have to have become something of a celebrity in your country while qualifying for the Olympics.

Thank you Captain Obvious. But that is irrelevant to the discussion...

[JMintzer]

A new issue but not a new issue. Many years ago the Russians treated their female athletes with male hormones. Truth i do not recall if they were allowed to compete or keep medals earned. I do recall reading that the women had psychological problems and many could not have children.

I recall a supreme court justice saying any attempt to define pornography must fail but I will know it when I see it. Transgender is simply not natural. We've all seen that.

Jim Carrey used to do a bit on that, years ago, on In Living Color... "Vera de Milo"

[JMintzer]

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression (https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression)

I recall going to a movie with a class of high school students (mainly Native Americans) around 1975 and going to see Little Big Man. The movie had a character who dressed and acted the part of female tribal members. Cross-dressed to Kill: 20 Great Movie/TV Dudes in Drag | EW.com (https://ew.com/gallery/cross-dressed-kill-20-great-movietv-dudes-drag/)

Little Big Man - Rotten Tomatoes (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/little_big_man)

Really do not see such behavior though as natural or unnatural. Maybe socially conditioned to see things one way.

I recall seeing Tootsie and the TV show "Bosom Buddies"...

I fail to see the connection between any of this and the discussion at hand...

[JMintzer]

Olympic Runner Caster Semenya Wants To Compete, Not Defend Her Womanhood : Live Updates: The Tokyo Olympics : NPR (https://www.npr.org/sections/tokyo-olympics-live-updates/2021/07/28/1021503989/women-runners-testosterone-olympics)

And then there are women born women who have too high testosterone levels.

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya)

Does Google not work in your Village? Or did you simply not read the link you provided?

"Semenya is an intersex woman, with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, assigned female at birth, with XY chromosomes and natural heterogametic testosterone level."

[Boomer]

I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care.

BUT, that being said, I agree that transgender women should not be competing against female athletes who were born female. This is not just about the Olympics, it is about all levels of sports, from informal competitions to the awarding of scholarships. Height and strength can make all the difference in athletic competition……

Let’s be fair.

Boomer the Moderate (an endangered species)




2 posts in the discussion. 1 calling an easily verifiable factual statement ridiculous and the other calling people who are trying to stand up to protect women as vile.

Quite the record....



Dear Cybersprings,

Calm the heck down and read the last paragraph in my post quoted above. Looks like you missed the part where I stood up for women’s rights — been doing that for decades.

I guess I hit a hot button with the other part of my post though. Could not bear to read beyond that maybe?

I will address your other attack in my next post, so I can include another with the same pattern of constant, condescending responses………Doppelgänger?

Boomer

[manaboutown]

Say if Bruce Jenner wanted to run at the 2024 Paris Olympics as a woman? Everyone would know that she had been a he. And the same would probably be the case with any Olympian at the Paris 2024 Olympics as to get to that level of competition you have to have become something of a celebrity in your country while qualifying for the Olympics.

Wheaties # 12 - 8 x 10 Tee Shirt Iron On Transfer Caitlyn Jenner cereal box | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/301657345913?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=301657345913&targetid=1262779891889&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9031529&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1262779891889&abcId=9300678&merchantid=101702109&gclid=CjwKCAjwx_eiBhBGEiwA15gLN9vaKWfspNjbpjSAw-dlyMh8qQyArEo4uRUW-_i2tPJxF8IabCieAhoCgSUQAvD_BwE)

[Boomer]

I'm sorry, I misspoke... It was only 20.8%...

Is NBC good enough for you?

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-760w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2022-07/MTP-FS-DATA-DOWNLOAD-32022-07-03-1-8ab7a2.png

This one says just under 20%...

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/18228.jpeg

Oh, look, over 20%!

https://c-hit.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/LGBTQ-Gallup-poll-1-771x578.png

Any other questions?



Aw, c’mon, Mintz, gotta learn to think outside the box. (I know that’s not going to happen though.)

I can see exactly how teenagers would just love skewing up and screwing up this poll — for a variety of reasons — many of those reasons have to do with messing with adults’ heads. It’s what they do.

Besides, since when do we believe everything teenagers say.

Carry on. I’m done.

Boomer

[JMintzer]

Aw, c’mon, Mintz, gotta learn to think outside the box. (I know that’s not going to happen though.)

I can see exactly how teenagers would just love skewing up and screwing up this poll — for a variety of reasons — many of those reasons have to do with messing with adults’ heads. It’s what they do.

Besides, since when do we believe everything teenagers say.

Carry on. I’m done.

Boomer

Right... That's got to be the answer... Teenagers make up sh!t to invalidate multiple polls that all miraculously show the same results...

But we better damn sure believe them when they tell us they are (insert the gender/pronoun of the month) or you're cancelled... Which is it?

Carry on...

[ThirdOfFive]

Aw, c’mon, Mintz, gotta learn to think outside the box. (I know that’s not going to happen though.)

I can see exactly how teenagers would just love skewing up and screwing up this poll — for a variety of reasons — many of those reasons have to do with messing with adults’ heads. It’s what they do.

Besides, since when do we believe everything teenagers say.

Carry on. I’m done.

Boomer
Bingo.

My granddaughter, who lands somewhere between "millennial" and "gen z" (more toward millennial) just shakes her head when she hears or reads these types of discussions. According to her at least 90%, probably more, of the people in those two age groups who "identify" as LGBTQ do so precisely for the attention. This, I think, is borne out when one compares the numbers in the graph to the Gen X and the Boomers. Subtract the LG from the set of initials, the incidence of which without knowing the precise numbers would seem to be close to the incidence of gays and lesbians in the population overall, and you're left with the BTQ. And given that, it begs the question, just why are there so MANY BTQ people in the Gen x - millennial group?

The only answer that makes sense (unless one leans toward the "epidemic" mindset) is the attention that making the claim gets one.

[Taltarzac725]

Bingo.

My granddaughter, who lands somewhere between "millennial" and "gen z" (more toward millennial) just shakes her head when she hears or reads these types of discussions. According to her at least 90%, probably more, of the people in those two age groups who "identify" as LGBTQ do so precisely for the attention. This, I think, is borne out when one compares the numbers in the graph to the Gen X and the Boomers. Subtract the LG from the set of initials, the incidence of which without knowing the precise numbers would seem to be close to the incidence of gays and lesbians in the population overall, and you're left with the BTQ. And given that, it begs the question, just why are there so MANY BTQ people in the Gen x - millennial group?

The only answer that makes sense (unless one leans toward the "epidemic" mindset) is the attention that making the claim gets one.

Probably because being gay/lesbian/bi is no longer seen as unnatural.

And "transgender" is very complicated when you start digging into it.

[Cybersprings]

Dear Cybersprings,

Calm the heck down and read the last paragraph in my post quoted above. Looks like you missed the part where I stood up for women’s rights — been doing that for decades.

I guess I hit a hot button with the other part of my post though. Could not bear to read beyond that maybe?

I will address your other attack in my next post, so I can include another with the same pattern of constant, condescending responses………Doppelgänger?

Boomer


The fact that you agree that transgender women should not be competing in women's sports does not negate:

"I think it is vile to target transgender people whose lives must be difficult enough without being used as pawns in political ploys.

Attacks on transgenders — both verbal and physical attacks — are part of a movement to dehumanize others — and the number of people who are susceptible to joining in the hatred is appalling.

And don’t get me started on the incongruity of using “holiness” as an attempt to veil hatred and to obsess about what is between someone else’s legs. If an adult decides to do something totally legal, why should anyone else care."

You made personal attacks on all the other people supporting biological women in this thread. You call people vile. You accuse people of hatred and attacking. Were you expecting no one to react to your unwarranted untrue attacks? But referencing the 2 posts you made and saying "nice record" is more than you can handle? Are we supposed to build a safe space for you?

[Cybersprings]

Besides, since when do we believe everything teenagers say.

Carry on. I’m done.

Boomer

After thinking about this for another 60 seconds, MEDICAL DOCTORS ARE PERFORMING SURGERIES TO MUTILATE TEENAGERS based on what they say. Are you kidding me????

[CFrance]

My Bride says I identify as a 12 year old at times.

:thumbup:


Well...

[JMintzer]

Bingo.

My granddaughter, who lands somewhere between "millennial" and "gen z" (more toward millennial) just shakes her head when she hears or reads these types of discussions. According to her at least 90%, probably more, of the people in those two age groups who "identify" as LGBTQ do so precisely for the attention. This, I think, is borne out when one compares the numbers in the graph to the Gen X and the Boomers. Subtract the LG from the set of initials, the incidence of which without knowing the precise numbers would seem to be close to the incidence of gays and lesbians in the population overall, and you're left with the BTQ. And given that, it begs the question, just why are there so MANY BTQ people in the Gen x - millennial group?

The only answer that makes sense (unless one leans toward the "epidemic" mindset) is the attention that making the claim gets one.

Did you miss the part where I said the sudden rise was due to "Social Media"? And that I said "Identify as"?

Of course it's for attention...

Just recently the actress, Marcia Gay Harden just had to announce that ALL 4 of her children are LGBT. One of the "Real Housewives" announced that 3 of her 4 children were, as well. Really? That many in ONE family?

Bill Mahr (sp?) talks about how you can't go to a dinner party in LA or NYC without parents talking about their multiple LGBT children...

He thinks it must be something in the water... :D

[JMintzer]

Probably because being gay/lesbian/bi is no longer seen as unnatural.

And "transgender" is very complicated when you start digging into it.

Somebody missed the point of the post they responded to...

[Taltarzac725]

Well...

The maturity level on Talk of the Villages certainly has been around 10 years old at times. Thankfully there are a lot of thoughtful adults who have been posting too over the almost 16 years I have been on here. I miss many of these people who have, for the most part, moved to other media or passed away.

Not sure what they would say about trans sexual men competing as women in the running competitions in Paris at the Olympics next summer in 2024. If that is even the right term. It would probably vary individual Olympian to Olympian.

[threeonemiles@outlook.com]

Where are the woman's right people? So unfair.
Where is Serena, Venus, Martina, Billie Jean, and all the other women athletes in all sports who do not speak out and lend their voices to protest this travesty? There are two genders, people. Deal with it.

[Two Bills]

Whats with calling generation 1925-1945 Traditionalists, I thought we were the The Silent Generation?
As for all this 'Identifying' stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if my Grandson 'comes out' and Identifies as "Ex-Box!" :shrug:

[billethkid]

Transgender issues like so many other minority (not race) issues are amplified by the media creating a false presence.

The way one was born is the majority determinant ......when you rearrange the spots on a leopard you still have a leopard!!!!

__________________________________________________ _

:censored:

[Bill14564]

Transgender issues like so many other minority (not race) issues are amplified by the media creating a false presence.

The way one was born is the majority determinant ......when you rearrange the spots on a leopard you still have a leopard!!!!

__________________________________________________ _

:censored:

Are you referring to visible physical characteristics or internal brain development as a fetus? Usually these are in sync, it seems sometimes they are not.

As far as competitive physical sports are involved, the physical characteristics should matter.

[JP]

So what about all the years the Russians were trying to do this with their women athletes and the world was trying to prove it and stop them. This whole issue is ridiculous.

[Taltarzac725]

So what about all the years the Russians were trying to do this with their women athletes and the world was trying to prove it and stop them. This whole issue is ridiculous.

Doping in Russia - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia)

Do you mean doping?