Where to go for complete physical exam?

[JerryLBell]

Before retiring, I used to go to a medical center in North Carolina that did complete physical exams - everything from bone density to hearing to cardio stress test to plaque buildup. I really like my GP here in The VIllages but he's not set up for that kind of examination. Can anybody recommend a medical center in or around The Villages that does this kind of complete exam?

[villagetinker]

Did you ask your GP for a recommendation, our PCP does a good job for a lot of items, but we use specialists for others, like hearing, dermatology, joint pain, etc.

[golfing eagles]

Before retiring, I used to go to a medical center in North Carolina that did complete physical exams - everything from bone density to hearing to cardio stress test to plaque buildup. I really like my GP here in The VIllages but he's not set up for that kind of examination. Can anybody recommend a medical center in or around The Villages that does this kind of complete exam?

OK, let's play devil's advocate. Why would you need or want "that kind of 'complete' physical exam"????

We don't do stress tests for the fun of it---we need a reason, especially since the false positive is 10-12% as is the false negative rate. Translation---if you get on a treadmill for the fun of it, there's a 10-12% chance you will end up with a cardiac catheterization.

Unless you are female or have some unusual bone disorder, you don't need a DEXA scan

Coronary artery calcium scoring has become popular for those with high LDLs, not a routine screening test

Bottom line, when it comes to medical tests, there are screening tests and diagnostic tests. They should NOT be confused with each other. Yes, there are places that make a lot of $$$$ by doing "complete" (also known as unnecessary) testing, many in Florida (probably only second to California). But fair warning---when it comes to medical testing, MORE is not usually BETTER.

I would be guided by your primary care physician as to what type of testing is indicated in your particular case

[Bill1701]

There are probably places near here, but you will have to pay for it. Medicare does not cover them.

[retiredguy123]

When I have a medical test performed, I am always concerned that the doctor will recommend an unnecessary procedure to protect the doctor against a possible malpractice lawsuit. I would never undergo a screening that is not universally recommended by the medical profession.

[golfing eagles]

When I have a medical test performed, I am always concerned that the doctor will recommend an unnecessary procedure to protect the doctor against a possible malpractice lawsuit. I would never undergo a screening that is not universally recommended by the medical profession.

Absolutely! Not only that, many of the places that offer "complete" examinations are simply Medicare and Medicaid mills, and often have fraudulent billing practices. Avoid at all costs.

[Stu from NYC]

Our Dr in Va always said be wary of invasive tests that are very often not needed.

[golfing eagles]

There are probably places near here, but you will have to pay for it. Medicare does not cover them.

And for good reason.

[Michael G.]

We have a neighbor that always have 3-4 doctor appointments a week for some test about something.
And their snowbirds, so they juggle the appointments and doctors between up north and here when they travel every 6 months.

[bowlingal]

bone density is covered by Medicare, but only one time every 2 years. I am diabetic, so I go for blood work every 3 months to check A1C and also other items. I went to a cardiologist 2 times to just "check" that everything is ok, and he told me not to come back until I really needed a cardiologist. Eye exam every year, dermatologist every year, sleep doc ( I have apnea) every 6 months, mammo every year, dentist ( for cleaning) every 4 months hearing( not so much).

[guppyvii]

I had a preventative medicine full physical every other year at Cooper Clinic in Dallas until I retired. I was going to ask the same question you did. The convenience of getting it all done in one place and in one day and then discussing with a doctor that has more than 10 minutes with you was peace of mind. Is it considered too late for preventative medicine if you’re on Medicare? I’m not there yet but dreading it from what I hear.

[mntlblok]

OK, let's play devil's advocate. Why would you need or want "that kind of 'complete' physical exam"????

We don't do stress tests for the fun of it---we need a reason, especially since the false positive is 10-12% as is the false negative rate. Translation---if you get on a treadmill for the fun of it, there's a 10-12% chance you will end up with a cardiac catheterization.

Unless you are female or have some unusual bone disorder, you don't need a DEXA scan

Coronary artery calcium scoring has become popular for those with high LDLs, not a routine screening test

Bottom line, when it comes to medical tests, there are screening tests and diagnostic tests. They should NOT be confused with each other. Yes, there are places that make a lot of $$$$ by doing "complete" (also known as unnecessary) testing, many in Florida (probably only second to California). But fair warning---when it comes to medical testing, MORE is not usually BETTER.

I would be guided by your primary care physician as to what type of testing is indicated in your particular case

The world kinda runs on asymmetric information, eh? But educating yourself can be an awful lot of trouble. Such a dilemma. :-) Had a cardiologist *lie* to me to get me to agree to a more expensive test. When he tried to scare me with the risk of sudden death via "tachycardia" and I asked if he didn't mean "fibrillation", he turned around and left the room. Have since learnt that such strategy is not rare. Ashamed of what I know of some in my own profession. Be careful out there. And good luck. No easy answers.

[ithos]

I have never agreed that less information is better when it comes to health especially since the medical schools do a very poor job of covering nutrition. Sometimes bad news will have a motivating effect for people to take their health more seriously. The vast majority of our ailments in this county are due to poor diet and lack of exercise. The major concern I see with too much testing if it involves radiation or some other potential harm such as a colonoscopy.

I recommend one of my favorite podcasters who is a cardiologist who does short programs on the latest research for wellness. Heart Doc VIP with Dr. Joel Kahn.

(I might need some cognitive testing since at first I posted this in the wrong thread)

[dewilson58]

OK, let's play devil's advocate. Why would you need or want "that kind of 'complete' physical exam"????

We don't do stress tests for the fun of it---we need a reason, especially since the false positive is 10-12% as is the false negative rate. Translation---if you get on a treadmill for the fun of it, there's a 10-12% chance you will end up with a cardiac catheterization.

Unless you are female or have some unusual bone disorder, you don't need a DEXA scan

Coronary artery calcium scoring has become popular for those with high LDLs, not a routine screening test

Bottom line, when it comes to medical tests, there are screening tests and diagnostic tests. They should NOT be confused with each other. Yes, there are places that make a lot of $$$$ by doing "complete" (also known as unnecessary) testing, many in Florida (probably only second to California). But fair warning---when it comes to medical testing, MORE is not usually BETTER.

I would be guided by your primary care physician as to what type of testing is indicated in your particular case

Okay, Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night???

:posting:

[ThirdOfFive]

I had a preventative medicine full physical every other year at Cooper Clinic in Dallas until I retired. I was going to ask the same question you did. The convenience of getting it all done in one place and in one day and then discussing with a doctor that has more than 10 minutes with you was peace of mind. Is it considered too late for preventative medicine if you’re on Medicare? I’m not there yet but dreading it from what I hear.
Great question!

As with (I assume) most of us, I've been getting regular colonoscopies as a preventative measure. I think most recently every five years. Comes time for my last physical, Doc asks me when my last colonoscopy was. 2018 as I recall. He then told me the "good" news: as I was now 75 I no longer needed regular colonoscopies, just "as needed" though he didn't define what "as needed" would consist of.

Was it good news? Or at 75 does the insurance look at me as someone with one foot in the grave and the other one on a banana peeling, so why waste money checking for things when odds are I'm going to be cashing it in soon enough anyway?

[BobAugustine]

The reason they don't do colonoscopies after age 75 is the possibility that you face a greater risk of piercing your colon than you do of contracting colon cancer.

[paulat585]

Thanks for this great discussion. I met with my PCP, who is a nurse practitioner, a few months back. When I asked her about tests I might need, she declined to order any & said I should go to one of the health screeners. I hesitated doing this as I knew they produced many false positives. Now I'll just wait until my PCP orders something.

[retiredguy123]

Thanks for this great discussion. I met with my PCP, who is a nurse practitioner, a few months back. When I asked her about tests I might need, she declined to order any & said I should go to one of the health screeners. I hesitated doing this as I knew they produced many false positives. Now I'll just wait until my PCP orders something.
What is a health screener?

[Deden]

Tri County Health Cardiologist, on 441 at the Sharon next to the Village hospital in Lady Lake the villages fl. she did all my exams your asking about right at the office. Also, Novu Dermatology Dr. Cristina Novela Cortes, MD (Internist) Shares the building with her husband which is a dermatologist. Good Luck with all your exams!

[Lisanp@aol.com]

The reason you received a "complete exam" is that the facility you went to owned expensive machines that they needed to pay for, and your insurance company helped them to do so. A good PCP will order test that are needed following your annual visit based on your individual case (or recommended according to established guidelines of age or time since last test). You don't need a bone density every year. Yes it's less convenient to have to schedule at another facility/date following your annual but this is actually what good doctors do.

[CosmicTrucker]

OK, let's play devil's advocate. Why would you need or want "that kind of 'complete' physical exam"????

We don't do stress tests for the fun of it---we need a reason, especially since the false positive is 10-12% as is the false negative rate. Translation---if you get on a treadmill for the fun of it, there's a 10-12% chance you will end up with a cardiac catheterization.

Unless you are female or have some unusual bone disorder, you don't need a DEXA scan

Coronary artery calcium scoring has become popular for those with high LDLs, not a routine screening test

Bottom line, when it comes to medical tests, there are screening tests and diagnostic tests. They should NOT be confused with each other. Yes, there are places that make a lot of $$$$ by doing "complete" (also known as unnecessary) testing, many in Florida (probably only second to California). But fair warning---when it comes to medical testing, MORE is not usually BETTER.

I would be guided by your primary care physician as to what type of testing is indicated in your particular case
Solid advice.

[MrLonzo]

I've wondered about the same question. I used to get annual physical exams until 8 or 10 years ago. Medicare no longer covers them. I'm not one to rush to a doctor with every itch or bump, so I wondered if I'm supposed to wait until I have untreatable Stage 4 melanoma before I see a doctor? I keep hearing about someone in a news report that a nasty disease was 'caught early on a routine physical', but never hear how that happens. Is there really such a thing as a 'routine physical'?

[rrdsg]

Why undergo unnecessary procedures? Personally, I adhere to the plan: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Rainger99]

I've wondered about the same question. I used to get annual physical exams until 8 or 10 years ago. Medicare no longer covers them. I'm not one to rush to a doctor with every itch or bump, so I wondered if I'm supposed to wait until I have untreatable Stage 4 melanoma before I see a doctor? I keep hearing about someone in a news report that a nasty disease was 'caught early on a routine physical', but never hear how that happens. Is there really such a thing as a 'routine physical'?

Medicare doesn't cover a yearly physical but it covers a yearly "wellness" visit.

Before I retired, I would get a yearly physical. Now I get a yearly "wellness" visit. I haven't noticed a big difference between a physical and a "wellness" visit.

Annual Wellness Visit Coverage (https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/yearly-wellness-visits)

What is the difference between a physical exam and a Medicare Wellness Visit? | UnitedHealthcare (https://www.uhc.com/news-articles/medicare-articles/whats-the-difference-between-a-physical-exam-and-a-medicare-wellness-visit#:~:text=A%20physical%20exam%20helps%20your,c ontinued%20health%20and%20well%2Dbeing).

[golfing eagles]

Medicare doesn't cover a yearly physical but it covers a yearly "wellness" visit.

Before I retired, I would get a yearly physical. Now I get a yearly "wellness" visit. I haven't noticed a big difference between a physical and a "wellness" visit.

Annual Wellness Visit Coverage (https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/yearly-wellness-visits)

What is the difference between a physical exam and a Medicare Wellness Visit? | UnitedHealthcare (https://www.uhc.com/news-articles/medicare-articles/whats-the-difference-between-a-physical-exam-and-a-medicare-wellness-visit#:~:text=A%20physical%20exam%20helps%20your,c ontinued%20health%20and%20well%2Dbeing).

About $80 :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

I have never agreed that less information is better when it comes to health especially since the medical schools do a very poor job of covering nutrition. Sometimes bad news will have a motivating effect for people to take their health more seriously. The vast majority of our ailments in this county are due to poor diet and lack of exercise. The major concern I see with too much testing if it involves radiation or some other potential harm such as a colonoscopy.

I recommend one of my favorite podcasters who is a cardiologist who does short programs on the latest research for wellness. Heart Doc VIP with Dr. Joel Kahn.

(I might need some cognitive testing since at first I posted this in the wrong thread)

2 points:

Less information is better than more information if the "more" information is either a load of crap or gives false information.

I take it the medical school YOU went to did a very poor job of teaching nutrition, since you must have first hand information to make that sweeping claim.

[rogerk]

OK, let's play devil's advocate. Why would you need or want "that kind of 'complete' physical exam"????

We don't do stress tests for the fun of it---we need a reason, especially since the false positive is 10-12% as is the false negative rate. Translation---if you get on a treadmill for the fun of it, there's a 10-12% chance you will end up with a cardiac catheterization.

Unless you are female or have some unusual bone disorder, you don't need a DEXA scan

Coronary artery calcium scoring has become popular for those with high LDLs, not a routine screening test

Bottom line, when it comes to medical tests, there are screening tests and diagnostic tests. They should NOT be confused with each other. Yes, there are places that make a lot of $$$$ by doing "complete" (also known as unnecessary) testing, many in Florida (probably only second to California). But fair warning---when it comes to medical testing, MORE is not usually BETTER.

I would be guided by your primary care physician as to what type of testing is indicated in your particular case
And what qualifies you to make comments? For me a complete physical every year can pick up changes early and avoid major problems later. Why wait till symptoms appear and that end up requiring more aggressive treatment.

[Normal]

I went to a private practice in Leesburg and found it pointless. Then I discovered the VA on 42. They are very efficient and I have zero complaints.

[golfing eagles]

And what qualifies you to make comments? For me a complete physical every year can pick up changes early and avoid major problems later. Why wait till symptoms appear and that end up requiring more aggressive treatment.

Hmmmm.......what makes me qualified?????? Let's start with :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Then, without posting my entire CV, let's just summarize with AOA graduate Univ of NY, 35 years in practice board certified in Internal Medicine, Retired Chief of Staff of my Community Hospital and Associate Professor of Medicine at SUNY Upstate.

So, just to be fair, what makes you qualified to challenge that????

That being said, you should have a "complete" physical every year----that means seeing your physician, and having whatever lab and screening tests are indicated for you as an individual. That's not what the OP was looking for. He/she was interested in a location that runs a panel of unnecessary tests without a clear indication---the problem is that this often gives useless and false information that only leads to more tests, some of which might be invasive.

PS----did you read post #3 on this thread?

[Stu from NYC]

Hmmmm.......what makes me qualified?????? Let's start with :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Then, without posting my entire CV, let's just summarize with AOA graduate Univ of NY, 35 years in practice board certified in Internal Medicine, Retired Chief of Staff of my Community Hospital and Associate Professor of Medicine at SUNY Upstate.

So, just to be fair, what makes you qualified to challenge that????

That being said, you should have a "complete" physical every year----that means seeing your physician, and having whatever lab and screening tests are indicated for you as an individual. That's not what the OP was looking for. He/she was interested in a location that runs a panel of unnecessary tests without a clear indication---the problem is that this often gives useless and false information that only leads to more tests, some of which might be invasive.

PS----did you read post #3 on this thread?

Knew that was coming.:BigApplause:

[golfing eagles]

Knew that was coming.:BigApplause:

I tried to resist---I really, really tried. I even waited 7 seconds (a good 7 seconds) before typing, but let's face it, he walked right into that one :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

Hmmmm.......what makes me qualified?????? Let's start with :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Then, without posting my entire CV, let's just summarize with AOA graduate Univ of NY, 35 years in practice board certified in Internal Medicine, Retired Chief of Staff of my Community Hospital and Associate Professor of Medicine at SUNY Upstate.

So, just to be fair, what makes you qualified to challenge that????

That being said, you should have a "complete" physical every year----that means seeing your physician, and having whatever lab and screening tests are indicated for you as an individual. That's not what the OP was looking for. He/she was interested in a location that runs a panel of unnecessary tests without a clear indication---the problem is that this often gives useless and false information that only leads to more tests, some of which might be invasive.

PS----did you read post #3 on this thread?

https://media2.giphy.com/media/15BuyagtKucHm/giphy.gif

[daniel200]

There are several medical facilities in Florida that do extensive “executive” physicals. The UF Health Douglas Williams Executive Health Program is one that I would recommend. It takes a two of days of your time. It is also customized for your particular situation. This is a thorough physical staffed by people who specialize in this program.

Its not cheap and is not covered by insurance. If my memory is correct it was $3,400 in 2020.

You can google it for contact info

[Lillyangel]

I tried to resist---I really, really tried. I even waited 7 seconds (a good 7 seconds) before typing, but let's face it, he walked right into that one :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: I have heard many so-called doctors say some really stupid things. Bottom line, they are taught very little about nutrition and most of them these days just want you to pop a pill. They have no time to get to the true cause of the problem. Scream all you want about your worth, but actually, I believe you need to seek counseling for your control and self-esteem issues.

[retiredguy123]

I have heard many so-called doctors say some really stupid things. Bottom line, they are taught very little about nutrition and most of them these days just want you to pop a pill. They have no time to get to the true cause of the problem. Scream all you want about your worth, but actually, I believe you need to seek counseling for your control and self-esteem issues.
I think that doctors know a lot about nutrition and weight control, but they also know that their patients will not follow their advice, so they don't waste their time on it. There is a current television ad where a young woman with type 2 diabetes is happy and dancing around because she is taking a new fangled drug that has reduced her A1C. The problem is that the woman is obviously at least 100 pounds overweight, and, if she lost that weight, she may not need any drugs at all.

[Stu from NYC]

I have heard many so-called doctors say some really stupid things. Bottom line, they are taught very little about nutrition and most of them these days just want you to pop a pill. They have no time to get to the true cause of the problem. Scream all you want about your worth, but actually, I believe you need to seek counseling for your control and self-esteem issues.

Guess you do not like doctors or is it just so called doctors?

[spinner1001]

Hmmmm.......what makes me qualified?????? Let's start with :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Then, without posting my entire CV, let's just summarize with AOA graduate Univ of NY, 35 years in practice board certified in Internal Medicine, Retired Chief of Staff of my Community Hospital and Associate Professor of Medicine at SUNY Upstate.

So, just to be fair, what makes you qualified to challenge that????

That being said, you should have a "complete" physical every year----that means seeing your physician, and having whatever lab and screening tests are indicated for you as an individual. That's not what the OP was looking for. He/she was interested in a location that runs a panel of unnecessary tests without a clear indication---the problem is that this often gives useless and false information that only leads to more tests, some of which might be invasive.

PS----did you read post #3 on this thread?

Whoosh.

Relativism is in fashion now but very dangerous. Facts matters. Opinions not so much.

[golfing eagles]

I have heard many so-called doctors say some really stupid things. Bottom line, they are taught very little about nutrition and most of them these days just want you to pop a pill. They have no time to get to the true cause of the problem. Scream all you want about your worth, but actually, I believe you need to seek counseling for your control and self-esteem issues.

Bottom line: You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. To quote Luke Skywalker from Star Wars episode 8---"Everything you have just said is WRONG". Please tell me all you know about medical education and the curriculum at over 100 medical schools in the US. Please tell me about all the really stupid thing doctors say, which would mean you have more medical knowledge than they do to be able to judge their statements. Tell me your basis for the claim that they just want you to "pop a pill"---is that based on your years of experience diagnosing and treating patients or just something you just picked up on some talk show????? (Probably "The View":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) Tell me how physicians have "no time" to get to the cause of the problem. I have seen some really ignorant posts on TOTV over the years, but congratulations on making the top 3. And that's with ignoring your idiotic personal attack because it was so off base and without merit that it isn't worth mentioning any further.

PS: Are you off your neuroleptics and other psychotropic meds??????

GET HELP!

[paulat585]

What is a health screener?
This type of service: https://discover.lifelinescreening.com/heyboomer/?sourcecd=LBLG027&utm_source=LBLG027&utm_medium=FB&utm_campaign=heyboomer&utm_content=invest&fbclid=IwAR0qa9eSiVl2EqEaP2PNbnIIEk1iyRD6UsWGYkSSP uuuxjFai_z2gCK4j6s

[Golfer222]

Could not agree with Golfing Eagles more.

As a board certified cardiologist I have seen many more complications from unnecessary testing than I care to imagine. Usually the docs succumbs to patient pressure or "just to be sure"

Case in point- screening stress test with no symptoms or risk factors for CAD. Stress test comes back mildly abnormal ( of which 40-50% do) , onto a nuclear stress test with again a mild abnormality (30 % false positive rate) , onto a heart cath in which a spiral dissection of a coronary occurs obligating a coronary bypass.

Now did anybody really do this patient any favors.

[golfing eagles]

I have heard many so-called doctors say some really stupid things. Bottom line, they are taught very little about nutrition and most of them these days just want you to pop a pill. They have no time to get to the true cause of the problem. Scream all you want about your worth, but actually, I believe you need to seek counseling for your control and self-esteem issues.

Could not agree with Golfing Eagles more.

As a board certified cardiologist I have seen many more complications from unnecessary testing than I care to imagine. Usually the docs succumbs to patient pressure or "just to be sure"

Case in point- screening stress test with no symptoms or risk factors for CAD. Stress test comes back mildly abnormal ( of which 40-50% do) , onto a nuclear stress test with again a mild abnormality (30 % false positive rate) , onto a heart cath in which a spiral dissection of a coronary occurs obligating a coronary bypass.

Now did anybody really do this patient any favors.

We both know that, but you didn't answer the important questions:

Are you a "so-called" cardiologist?
Do you say "stupid" things?
Are you ignorant of nutrition?
Do you do nothing but make your patients "pop pills"
Do you ignore the cause of their problem?
Do you "scream about your worth"
Do you have "control" and "self-esteem issues"

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around that post
What do you think?----Delusional? Organic Personality Disorder? Multi-infarct dementia?
Or perhaps the etiology is more in your field of expertise---such as a cardiac output of 1.1 L/min so that whatever cerebral cortex she actually has is severely hypoperfused. Might make a good case study in NEJM :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[blueash]

We both know that, but you didn't answer the important questions:

Are you a "so-called" cardiologist?
Do you say "stupid" things?
Are you ignorant of nutrition?
Do you do nothing but make your patients "pop pills"
Do you ignore the cause of their problem?
Do you "scream about your worth"
Do you have "control" and "self-esteem issues"

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around that post
What do you think?----Delusional? Organic Personality Disorder? Multi-infarct dementia?
Or perhaps the etiology is more in your field of expertise---such as a cardiac output of 1.1 L/min so that whatever cerebral cortex she actually has is severely hypoperfused. Might make a good case study in NEJM :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Please stop this attack on the person who does not agree with your approach to health care. I am frankly saddened that you seem to want to diagnose someone as mentally ill and suggest that need to get medicated now because they see things differently than you do. And to suggest they are not getting enough blood flow to their brain then posting your rolling on the floor thing like that is funny.

I suspect that if a chiropractor got on this forum and told all of us that they went to DC school and ran a large practice and that they means they know best about health care and those who disagree need help NOW you would not agree.

Knowledge does not give you permission to go on to arrogance nor does it give wisdom. Maybe you could wait longer than seven seconds before you feel the need to reply.

[jswirs]

OK, let's play devil's advocate. Why would you need or want "that kind of 'complete' physical exam"????

We don't do stress tests for the fun of it---we need a reason, especially since the false positive is 10-12% as is the false negative rate. Translation---if you get on a treadmill for the fun of it, there's a 10-12% chance you will end up with a cardiac catheterization.

Unless you are female or have some unusual bone disorder, you don't need a DEXA scan

Coronary artery calcium scoring has become popular for those with high LDLs, not a routine screening test

Bottom line, when it comes to medical tests, there are screening tests and diagnostic tests. They should NOT be confused with each other. Yes, there are places that make a lot of $$$$ by doing "complete" (also known as unnecessary) testing, many in Florida (probably only second to California). But fair warning---when it comes to medical testing, MORE is not usually BETTER.

I would be guided by your primary care physician as to what type of testing is indicated in your particular case

That is good advice, of which I am pleased to hear.

Other than a yearly physical, I stay away from doctors / testing sites, etc., until there is a NEED. Even then, much due diligence is required. For example, in my lifetime I have had several orthopedic type problems due to being very physically active. I have seen doctors who prescribe pain pills, surgeons suggesting operations, doctors specializing in "Pain" injections. Most times a good Physical Therapist can resolve or minimize structural problems. But, there is much work involved, and it sometimes takes months. Bottom line: The body wants to, or tries to heal itself. A good MD will help that process to occur, however, there are health professionals out there (including , and maybe especially, dentist) that treat you like a number and are more interested in what your insurance will pay for. One needs to do extensive research lest you engage with a "Profit over People" specialist.

[golfing eagles]

Please stop this attack on the person who does not agree with your approach to health care. I am frankly saddened that you seem to want to diagnose someone as mentally ill and suggest that need to get medicated now because they see things differently than you do. And to suggest they are not getting enough blood flow to their brain then posting your rolling on the floor thing like that is funny.

I suspect that if a chiropractor got on this forum and told all of us that they went to DC school and ran a large practice and that they means they know best about health care and those who disagree need help NOW you would not agree.

Knowledge does not give you permission to go on to arrogance nor does it give wisdom. Maybe you could wait longer than seven seconds before you feel the need to reply.

ARE YOU KIDDING??? DID YOU READ HER POST?????

Of all people, you know exactly how stupid that post was.
"The person who does not agree with your approach to health care."?----This is not MY approach to health care, I gave THE approach to health care , the standard that every qualified physician should follow. I'm excluding the quacks in holistic and alternative medicine. And on what basis does that poster get to agree or disagree? I suppose she could invoke the often misquoted Thomas Gray poem and claim "Ignorance is Bliss" You do practice evidence based medicine, don't you???????

My attack????? You mean my counter---the post basically attacked all physicians---then me in particular. I think you know there was no way I wasn't going to respond.

And finally, the example you hold out for comparison is a chiropractor? A CHIROPRACTOR????---have you lost it???? Who in our profession could care less about what a chiropractor has to say?

I know we have disagreed on issues of political leanings and religious tolerance before, but this is professional now. Please enlighten me---what was your specialty again??????

PS: It took less than 7 seconds after I saw this one.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

The world kinda runs on asymmetric information, eh? But educating yourself can be an awful lot of trouble. Such a dilemma. :-)
.....
Have since learnt that such strategy is not rare. Ashamed of what I know of some in my own profession. Be careful out there. And good luck. No easy answers.

asymmetric information is very, very true. . . the more you know, the more posers you see. . .
the more posers you see . . . the more you think of FL as a third world country

my south american colleague made the same point with all FL doctors. . one isn't sure if they are unnecessarily billing for extra services due to the low reimbursement for medicare. . if they can't profit from price, they profit from volume.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Could not agree with Golfing Eagles more.

As a board certified cardiologist I have seen many more complications from unnecessary testing than I care to imagine. Usually the docs succumbs to patient pressure or "just to be sure"

Case in point- screening stress test with no symptoms or risk factors for CAD. Stress test comes back mildly abnormal ( of which 40-50% do) , onto a nuclear stress test with again a mild abnormality (30 % false positive rate) , onto a heart cath in which a spiral dissection of a coronary occurs obligating a coronary bypass.

Now did anybody really do this patient any favors.

There is a fine line between proactive and reactive medicine. My 80 year old cardiologist put me through all the tests, even though I didn't show any significant signs. . The only data point was and still is, my grandfather had a heart attack at 50, my dad at 60. . that's it for me. . borderline hypertensive . . framingham heart study said low risk, exactly the same score for another friend who had a heart attack. .

:boom:

the calcium scan came back at 94. . . where the 100% score is total fossilization .. . . but agreed that there were no invasive tests. . . or at least these did not appear to me to be invasive. .

the smoking gun. . so I am on the same meds as those who have had heart attacks. .

the body is still a black box . . . until genetic medicine and AI is perfected, it will always be a black box. . and humans are humans. . the data and more data is great, but a human can only handle so much data, and that's where AI will really change medicine . . . being able to test thousands of data points for better predictors. .

AI Predicts Future Pancreatic Cancer | Harvard Medical School (https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ai-predicts-future-pancreatic-cancer)

OpenEvidence (https://www.openevidence.com)

full disclosure. . . i am a certified data junkie in the corporate world, building corporate data warehouses and building forecasting models. .

[golfing eagles]

There is a fine line between proactive and reactive medicine. My 80 year old cardiologist put me through all the tests, even though I didn't show any significant signs. . The only data point was and still is, my grandfather had a heart attack at 50, my dad at 60. . that's it for me. . borderline hypertensive . . framingham heart study said low risk, exactly the same score for another friend who had a heart attack. .

:boom:

the calcium scan came back at 94. . . where the 100% score is total fossilization .. . . but agreed that there were no invasive tests. . . or at least these did not appear to me to be invasive. .

the smoking gun. . so I am on the same meds as those who have had heart attacks. .

the body is still a black box . . . until genetic medicine and AI is perfected, it will always be a black box. . and humans are humans. . the data and more data is great, but a human can only handle so much data, and that's where AI will really change medicine . . . being able to test thousands of data points for better predictors. .

AI Predicts Future Pancreatic Cancer | Harvard Medical School (https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ai-predicts-future-pancreatic-cancer)

OpenEvidence (https://www.openevidence.com)

full disclosure. . . i am a certified data junkie in the corporate world, building corporate data warehouses and building forecasting models. .

Good story, and it shows that your cardiologist applied risk factors of family history, hypertension, gender, age, and ? LDL to appropriately evaluate risk. That's evidence based medicine, kudos to you and him.

That's quite a bit different that shot gunning a large array of unnecessary tests, usually for profit, or in the case of "holistic" or "alternative" practitioners, ignorance.

Also different than someone with no knowledge base being critical of the standard of care.

Stay healthy.

[Golfer222]

There is a fine line between proactive and reactive medicine. My 80 year old cardiologist put me through all the tests, even though I didn't show any significant signs. . The only data point was and still is, my grandfather had a heart attack at 50, my dad at 60. . that's it for me. . borderline hypertensive . . framingham heart study said low risk, exactly the same score for another friend who had a heart attack. .

:boom:

the calcium scan came back at 94. . . where the 100% score is total fossilization .. . . but agreed that there were no invasive tests. . . or at least these did not appear to me to be invasive. .

the smoking gun. . so I am on the same meds as those who have had heart attacks. .

the body is still a black box . . . until genetic medicine and AI is perfected, it will always be a black box. . and humans are humans. . the data and more data is great, but a human can only handle so much data, and that's where AI will really change medicine . . . being able to test thousands of data points for better predictors. .

AI Predicts Future Pancreatic Cancer | Harvard Medical School (https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ai-predicts-future-pancreatic-cancer)

OpenEvidence (https://www.openevidence.com)

full disclosure. . . i am a certified data junkie in the corporate world, building corporate data warehouses and building forecasting models. .

A calcium score of 94 is not that bad depending on age. It is not 94 out of a 100. It is called an Agaston score and can be well into the thousands. Per the American College of Cardiology, it should only be used to determine need for a statin in a person of intermediate risk (5%-20%) of developing coronary disease. No need to repeat once the value is above zero.

[Dusty_Star]

Bottom line: You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. To quote Luke Skywalker from Star Wars episode 8---"Everything you have just said is WRONG". Please tell me all you know about medical education and the curriculum at over 100 medical schools in the US. Please tell me about all the really stupid thing doctors say, which would mean you have more medical knowledge than they do to be able to judge their statements. Tell me your basis for the claim that they just want you to "pop a pill"---is that based on your years of experience diagnosing and treating patients or just something you just picked up on some talk show????? (Probably "The View":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) Tell me how physicians have "no time" to get to the cause of the problem. I have seen some really ignorant posts on TOTV over the years, but congratulations on making the top 3. And that's with ignoring your idiotic personal attack because it was so off base and without merit that it isn't worth mentioning any further.

PS: Are you off your neuroleptics and other psychotropic meds??????

GET HELP!

:bigbow:

[golfing eagles]

A calcium score of 94 is not that bad depending on age. It is not 94 out of a 100. It is called an Agaston score and can be well into the thousands. Per the American College of Cardiology, it should only be used to determine need for a statin in a person of intermediate risk (5%-20%) of developing coronary disease. No need to repeat once the value is above zero.

Absolutely agree. The only time I ever ordered it was to make a borderline decision re: a statin easier. Interestingly, my wife actually had a Ca++ score (before we got married) for a high LDL. However, her entire family history would be suggestive that it was more likely a marker for A Milano protein that a type IV hyperlipidemia. Combine that with her statement that she would never take a statin and I wouldn't have even ordered it for her.

[Stu from NYC]

Absolutely agree. The only time I ever ordered it was to make a borderline decision re: a statin easier. Interestingly, my wife actually had a Ca++ score (before we got married) for a high LDL. However, her entire family history would be suggestive that it was more likely a marker for A Milano protein that a type IV hyperlipidemia. Combine that with her statement that she would never take a statin and I wouldn't have even ordered it for her.

Statins seem like a very good drug with the only major side effect pain in legs (my wife had it and doc switched her to another one and no problem.

What reason did she have for not wanting to take a statin? Or if you would rather not answer about your wife, is there a good reason for not taking it if medically indicated?

[golfing eagles]

Statins seem like a very good drug with the only major side effect pain in legs (my wife had it and doc switched her to another one and no problem.

What reason did she have for not wanting to take a statin? Or if you would rather not answer about your wife, is there a good reason for not taking it if medically indicated?

Sorry, I should have clarified. My wife is a RN, BSN, and has a Masters in nursing and another masters in health administration. She knows the criteria for treatment with a statin and knew she was not likely to be at high risk for CAD. If she met criteria, she most certainly would accept treatment with a statin.

As an educational aside, there are patients who are afraid of taking statins because of "muscle damage"
Here are approx. risks:

Rhabdomyolysis (severe muscle damage): 1 in every 500,000 patients
Statin induced myositis (let's call it muscle inflammation): 1 in every 3500 patients
Statin induced myalgia (aches and pain, no damage) about 2% (1 in 50)

So, if anyone out there meets criteria for treatment, don't be afraid of that "side effect". If you take it and get muscle aches, it can always be withdrawn. But the risk reduction for AMI (heart attack) is tremendous.

[Golfer222]

Statins not only lowers LDL but have a "pleiotropic" effect by improving endothelial function and lowering inflammation

[golfing eagles]

Statins not only lowers LDL but have a "pleiotropic" effect by improving endothelial function and lowering inflammation

And not only that, statin is both easier to spell and pronounce than hydroxy-methyl-glutaryl-coenzyme-A reductase inhibitor :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[ithos]

2 points:

Less information is better than more information if the "more" information is either a load of crap or gives false information.

I take it the medical school YOU went to did a very poor job of teaching nutrition, since you must have first hand information to make that sweeping claim.

I should have cited references of which there are so many but an article from Stanford Med should suffice.

During four years of medical school, most students spend fewer than 20 hours on nutrition. That’s completely disproportionate to its health benefits for patients.
Why Medical Schools Need to Focus More on Nutrition | School of Medicine | Stanford Medicine (https://med.stanford.edu/school/leadership/dean/precision-health-in-the-news/why-medica-schools-need-focus-nutrition.html#:~:text=Doctors%20have%20historical ly%20received%20almost,its%20health%20benefits%20f or%20patients).

And medical professional opinions can vary greatly depending on the subject just like in politics. So as a layman I listen to all sides. I referenced Dr Kahn and listen to most of his podcasts as he goes to great lengths to provide supporting information. So if you can poke holes in his arguments then I will keep an open mind.

I do believe that people who are raised on a whole food plant based and exercise regularly probably never need a routine checkup. But there very few of those.

Other Doctors whose advice I have great respect for are Alan Goldhamer, Joel Fuhrman, Garth Davis, Michael Greger, George Guthrie, T Colin Campbell, Neal Bernard and Caldwell Esselstyn.

[Stu from NYC]

I should have cited references of which there are so many but an article from Stanford Med should suffice.

During four years of medical school, most students spend fewer than 20 hours on nutrition. That’s completely disproportionate to its health benefits for patients.
Why Medical Schools Need to Focus More on Nutrition | School of Medicine | Stanford Medicine (https://med.stanford.edu/school/leadership/dean/precision-health-in-the-news/why-medica-schools-need-focus-nutrition.html#:~:text=Doctors%20have%20historical ly%20received%20almost,its%20health%20benefits%20f or%20patients).

And medical professional opinions can vary greatly depending on the subject just like in politics. So as a layman I listen to all sides. I referenced Dr Kahn and listen to most of his podcasts as he goes to great lengths to provide supporting information. So if you can poke holes in his arguments then I will keep an open mind.

I do believe that people who are raised on a whole food plant based and exercise regularly probably never need a routine checkup. But there very few of those.

Other Doctors whose advice I have great respect for are Alan Goldhamer, Joel Fuhrman, Garth Davis, Michael Greger, George Guthrie, T Colin Campbell, Neal Bernard and Caldwell Esselstyn.

Golfing Eagles very interested in your take about what is taught in medical school on nutrition and vitamins. I am under the impression (and could be wrong) that the average doctor is not as knowledgable as he or she should be about vitamins.

[ithos]

We need many more debates like this:
ROBERT ATKINS & USDA NUTRITION DEBATE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ-2M02ON5E

[golfing eagles]

I should have cited references of which there are so many but an article from Stanford Med should suffice.

During four years of medical school, most students spend fewer than 20 hours on nutrition. That’s completely disproportionate to its health benefits for patients.
Why Medical Schools Need to Focus More on Nutrition | School of Medicine | Stanford Medicine (https://med.stanford.edu/school/leadership/dean/precision-health-in-the-news/why-medica-schools-need-focus-nutrition.html#:~:text=Doctors%20have%20historical ly%20received%20almost,its%20health%20benefits%20f or%20patients).

And medical professional opinions can vary greatly depending on the subject just like in politics. So as a layman I listen to all sides. I referenced Dr Kahn and listen to most of his podcasts as he goes to great lengths to provide supporting information. So if you can poke holes in his arguments then I will keep an open mind.

I do believe that people who are raised on a whole food plant based and exercise regularly probably never need a routine checkup. But there very few of those.

Other Doctors whose advice I have great respect for are Alan Goldhamer, Joel Fuhrman, Garth Davis, Michael Greger, George Guthrie, T Colin Campbell, Neal Bernard and Caldwell Esselstyn.

I'm not sure how this thread went from the OP looking to have unnecessary testing performed to a diatribe on nutrition, but OK, let's play:

You state Dr. Joel Kahn is your "go to" guy? well, here's a headline from the journal "Science based Medicine":

“Holistic cardiologist” Dr. Joel Kahn is amplifying misinformation and conspiracy theories about COVID-19 vaccines and VAERS
Dr. Joel Kahn is a “holistic cardiologist.” There was a time when he seemed to me at least semi-reasonable, but recently he has been peddling COVID-19 conspiracy theories and antivaccine misinformation, particularly misrepresentation of reports to the VAERS database, which makes this a good time for an update about how antivaxxers are weaponizing VAERS for propaganda purposes."

This "so-called" doctor has a series of books similar to the other quack, Dr. Oz who promotes power food groups and some other nonsense.

And as if he didn't make enough money from selling his garbage, here another headline from the Detroit free press:

"Three doctors named last week in Beaumont Health's $84.5-million settlement with the U.S. Justice Department insist they did nothing wrong and have hired an attorney to defend their reputations.

The trio — Dr. Joel Kahn, Dr. Dinesh Shah and Dr. Renato Ramos — were among the eight Beaumont doctors identified in the settlement agreement as having enjoyed improper pay arrangements with the hospital system and other perks in potential violation of federal laws."

Then we have that wonderful article and assessment from Stanford Med, "which should suffice"---NOT

Stanford, CALIFORNIA medical community supports avocados, fruits and nuts---gee, what a surprise. Didn't see anything of the sort in the NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE. And they state "That’s completely disproportionate to its health benefits for patients."---now, talk about an OPINION rather than FACT. Wow, just Wow. Maybe they could quantify those "health benefits" and do a double blinded placebo controlled multi-centered prospective study and prove their case----but don't hold your breath, it will never happen.

So much for "poking holes" at "Dr." Kahn-----he just took a torpedo broadside.

Next on your list:

Dr. Alan Goldhamer is the founder of TrueNorth Health Center---except he is NOT a doctor, he is a chiropractor, also selling books and whatnot

Dr. Joel Fuhrman: His practice is based on his nutrition-based approach to obesity and chronic disease, as well as promoting his products and books He is a self proclaimed naturopath and alternative medicine practitioner (= QUACK)

Garth Philip Davis is an American bariatric surgeon, physician and author. Davis specializes in weight management and is known for his advocacy of plant-based nutrition. Yep, plant based nutrition---Res ipsa loquitur

I'm sorry I didn't finish reviewing that entire list of charlatans, scam artists and quacks, but it was starting to turn my stomach

I'm also sorry if I disillusioned you about those "doctors" that you "have great respect" for, but you asked.

Bottom line: If you see the word holistic, alternative, naturopath or nutritionist or any combination of the above, please RUN in the opposite direction as fast as possible. I can 99.9% guarantee that they are selling something---a book, a proprietary diet, a weight loss clinic and may, and this is a big red flag, have their name on their building---or worse yet, a TV show, a radio show, or a podcast.

[ithos]

I'm not sure how this thread went from the OP looking to have unnecessary testing performed to a diatribe on nutrition, but OK, let's play:

You state Dr. Joel Kahn is your "go to" guy? well, here's a headline from the journal "Science based Medicine":

“Holistic cardiologist” Dr. Joel Kahn is amplifying misinformation and conspiracy theories about COVID-19 vaccines and VAERS
Dr. Joel Kahn is a “holistic cardiologist.” There was a time when he seemed to me at least semi-reasonable, but recently he has been peddling COVID-19 conspiracy theories and antivaccine misinformation, particularly misrepresentation of reports to the VAERS database, which makes this a good time for an update about how antivaxxers are weaponizing VAERS for propaganda purposes."

This "so-called" doctor has a series of books similar to the other quack, Dr. Oz who promotes power food groups and some other nonsense.

And as if he didn't make enough money from selling his garbage, here another headline from the Detroit free press:

"Three doctors named last week in Beaumont Health's $84.5-million settlement with the U.S. Justice Department insist they did nothing wrong and have hired an attorney to defend their reputations.

The trio — Dr. Joel Kahn, Dr. Dinesh Shah and Dr. Renato Ramos — were among the eight Beaumont doctors identified in the settlement agreement as having enjoyed improper pay arrangements with the hospital system and other perks in potential violation of federal laws."

Then we have that wonderful article and assessment from Stanford Med, "which should suffice"---NOT

Stanford, CALIFORNIA medical community supports avocados, fruits and nuts---gee, what a surprise. Didn't see anything of the sort in the NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE. And they state "That’s completely disproportionate to its health benefits for patients."---now, talk about an OPINION rather than FACT. Wow, just Wow. Maybe they could quantify those "health benefits" and do a double blinded placebo controlled multi-centered prospective study and prove their case----but don't hold your breath, it will never happen.

So much for "poking holes" at "Dr." Kahn-----he just took a torpedo broadside.

Next on your list:

Dr. Alan Goldhamer is the founder of TrueNorth Health Center---except he is NOT a doctor, he is a chiropractor, also selling books and whatnot

Dr. Joel Fuhrman: His practice is based on his nutrition-based approach to obesity and chronic disease, as well as promoting his products and books He is a self proclaimed naturopath and alternative medicine practitioner (= QUACK)

Garth Philip Davis is an American bariatric surgeon, physician and author. Davis specializes in weight management and is known for his advocacy of plant-based nutrition. Yep, plant based nutrition---Res ipsa loquitur

I'm sorry I didn't finish reviewing that entire list of charlatans, scam artists and quacks, but it was starting to turn my stomach

I'm also sorry if I disillusioned you about those "doctors" that you "have great respect" for, but you asked.

Bottom line: If you see the word holistic, alternative, naturopath or nutritionist or any combination of the above, please RUN in the opposite direction as fast as possible. I can 99.9% guarantee that they are selling something---a book, a proprietary diet, a weight loss clinic and may, and this is a big red flag, have their name on their building---or worse yet, a TV show, a radio show, or a podcast.

Thank you for the reply. I left out Dean Ornish who runs a program to reverse heart disease that can be reimbursed by Medicare. It may still be the only one.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) has determined that the Ornish Program for Reversing Heart Disease meets the intensive cardiac rehabilitation (ICR) program requirements set forth by Congress in §1861(eee)(4)(A) of the Social Security Act and in our regulations at 42 C.F.R. §410.49(c) and, as such, has been included on the list of approved ICR programs available at Medicare Approved Facilities/Trials/Registries | CMS (http://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Medicare-General-Information/MedicareApprovedFacilitie/).

NCA - Intensive Cardiac Rehabilitation (ICR) Program - Dr. Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease (CAG-00419N) - Decision Memo (https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/view/ncacal-decision-memo.aspx?proposed=N&NCAId=240&NcaName=Intensive+Cardiac+Rehabilitation+%28ICR%29 +Program+-+Dr.+Ornish)

Is he a quack?

What about Dr Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic, rated as number one hospital for heart disease. He has a program to reverse heart disease. Is he a quack?
Best Hospitals for Cardiology & Heart Surgery
Access Denied (https://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/cardiology-and-heart-surgery)

The Esselstyn Heart Disease Program | Cleveland Clinic (https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/esselstyn-program)

And for Dr Kahn there are always more than one side to a story

3 Beaumont doctors claim innocence over $84.5M settlement (https://www.freep.com/story/money/2018/08/09/beaumont-doctors-claim-innocence-over-settlement/950032002/)

The whistleblowers identified numerous Beaumont doctors and administrators. Yet none of the three doctors were accused of wrongdoing in the whistleblowers' lawsuits against Beaumont, which were unsealed last week.


And he still has his license. So you haven't proved anything on a medical basis. As far as being critical of the Covid Vax, there are so many prominent health professionals on both sides of the argument, that you could write a book on. Not going to settle that on TOV. The major point is that he cites all references for his recommendations so that people can decide for themselves. In my layman's opinion he doesn't have the winning argument on everything.

As far as nutrition education in medical school, chew on this:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/doctors-nutrition-education/
“Today, most medical schools in the United States teach less than 25 hours of nutrition over four years. The fact that less than 20 percent of medical schools have a single required course in nutrition, it’s a scandal. It’s outrageous. It’s obscene,” Eisenberg told NewsHour.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(19)30171-8/fulltext
Our analysis of these studies showed that nutrition is insufficiently incorporated into medical education, regardless of country, setting, or year of medical education. Deficits in nutrition education affect students' knowledge, skills, and confidence to implement nutrition care into patient care.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/ut-southwestern-medical-school-culinary-medicine-nutrition/
Why Doctors Aren’t Taught Much About Nutrition

And I could cite many more.

Can you cite a reputable publication that says nutrition is covered adequately in Med School?

And True North has been around for decades and claim some very positive results with their program for people who have not had good results with conventional medicine. And yes, I believe their water fasting program is very effective for many medical issues including addiction. If they were not successful then they would have been sued out of business or had their state license revoked.

And I would be most interested if you have any dirt on Dr Greger of https://nutritionfacts.org/ other than he once worked for "Patch" Adams.
Dr. Michael Greger | How Not To Die | Talks at Google
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ

[golfing eagles]

Thank you for the reply. I left out Dean Ornish who runs a program to reverse heart disease that can be reimbursed by Medicare. It may still be the only one.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) has determined that the Ornish Program for Reversing Heart Disease meets the intensive cardiac rehabilitation (ICR) program requirements set forth by Congress in §1861(eee)(4)(A) of the Social Security Act and in our regulations at 42 C.F.R. §410.49(c) and, as such, has been included on the list of approved ICR programs available at Medicare Approved Facilities/Trials/Registries | CMS (http://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Medicare-General-Information/MedicareApprovedFacilitie/).

NCA - Intensive Cardiac Rehabilitation (ICR) Program - Dr. Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease (CAG-00419N) - Decision Memo (https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/view/ncacal-decision-memo.aspx?proposed=N&NCAId=240&NcaName=Intensive+Cardiac+Rehabilitation+%28ICR%29 +Program+-+Dr.+Ornish)

Is he a quack?

What about Dr Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic, rated as number one hospital for heart disease. He has a program to reverse heart disease. Is he a quack?
Best Hospitals for Cardiology & Heart Surgery
Access Denied (https://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/cardiology-and-heart-surgery)

The Esselstyn Heart Disease Program | Cleveland Clinic (https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/esselstyn-program)

And for Dr Kahn there are always more than one side to a story

3 Beaumont doctors claim innocence over $84.5M settlement (https://www.freep.com/story/money/2018/08/09/beaumont-doctors-claim-innocence-over-settlement/950032002/)

The whistleblowers identified numerous Beaumont doctors and administrators. Yet none of the three doctors were accused of wrongdoing in the whistleblowers' lawsuits against Beaumont, which were unsealed last week.


And he still has his license. So you haven't proved anything on a medical basis. As far as being critical of the Covid Vax, there are so many prominent health professionals on both sides of the argument, that you could write a book on. Not going to settle that on TOV. The major point is that he cites all references for his recommendations so that people can decide for themselves. In my layman's opinion he doesn't have the winning argument on everything.

As far as nutrition education in medical school, chew on this:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/doctors-nutrition-education/
“Today, most medical schools in the United States teach less than 25 hours of nutrition over four years. The fact that less than 20 percent of medical schools have a single required course in nutrition, it’s a scandal. It’s outrageous. It’s obscene,” Eisenberg told NewsHour.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(19)30171-8/fulltext
Our analysis of these studies showed that nutrition is insufficiently incorporated into medical education, regardless of country, setting, or year of medical education. Deficits in nutrition education affect students' knowledge, skills, and confidence to implement nutrition care into patient care.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/ut-southwestern-medical-school-culinary-medicine-nutrition/
Why Doctors Aren’t Taught Much About Nutrition

And I could cite many more.

Can you cite a reputable publication that says nutrition is covered adequately in Med School?

And True North has been around for decades and claim some very positive results with their program for people who have not had good results with conventional medicine. And yes, I believe their water fasting program is very effective for many medical issues including addiction. If they were not successful then they would have been sued out of business or had their state license revoked.

And I would be most interested if you have any dirt on Dr Greger of https://nutritionfacts.org/ other than he once worked for "Patch" Adams.
Dr. Michael Greger | How Not To Die | Talks at Google
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ

OK, I guess that says it all

I thought I was dealing with a simple case of misunderstanding human physiology. Unfortunately, what we are dealing with is the cult of nutrition----millions of dollars being made on books, seminars, diets, "institutes", TV shows, "infomercials", radio shows and podcasts----all by either legitimate doctors that turned to the dark side or just outright scam artists. They have sold out for $$$ just like LIV golfers have sold out to Saudi sportswashing money. These people are parasites feeding off the public desire for immortality.

I hate to pick on him again, but let's use the example of Mehmet Oz. A well educated physician and surgeon, he attended Yale Univ undergraduate and got a dual MD/MBA from univ of Penn and Wharton business school. He was associate director of cardiothoracic surgery at Columbia-New York Hospital, and could benefit many patients via his talent in the OR, which is what he did---initially. Then he allowed himself to be "Oprahfied"---sold out for a TV show and more $$$$, just like "Dr." Phil. I very much doubt he even believes half the crap he spouts out on TV---too bad he lost his senate race because that might have shut him up.

These "so-called" doctors have convinced millions of gullible people that the secret to health and a long life lies in what they eat. The best analogy is probably James Fixx----you remember him, the author of "The Running Book" that started the cult of jogging in America. Now, there's nothing wrong with getting plenty of exercise, but this "cult" was likewise convinced that THE secret was running. Of course, you'll remember this guru of jogging dropped dead of a heart attack at age 47. But it has been quite a money maker for the orthopedists.

We see above a list of these "so called" doctors, and note they "cite references". Here's a news flash----the astronomers and geologists who belong to "The Flat Earth Society" also cite references. But in a similar vein, they cite references from other members of their society. The cult of nutrition "experts" are like a closed union shop that promote garbage and the slap each other on the back as they head to the bank.

And all this is built on the fallacy that "nutrition will cure all". I particularly like the assertion that medical schools do not spend enough time teaching "nutrition". Just how much time should they waste on a very simple premise. In fact, let me save anyone the 25 hours that are claimed to be inadequate and teach it in 30 seconds:

Eat a balanced diet without large amounts of fat
Don't eat too much of it
If and ONLY IF you are one of the few patients with a SPECIFIC vitamin deficiency, replace that vitamin and only that one.
Exercise regularly.

Oh, yes----before I forget, there's "reversing coronary artery disease". Absolutely been proven----by legitimate physicians and cardiologists---it's called a low fat diet and a statin. Proven by angiographic studies. Don't need a holistic quack to do that. The programs that are "Medicare reimbursed" combine traditional cardiac rehab and statin therapy with a target of reducing LDL to under 70. They DO NOT rely on telling people to eat broccoli 15 minutes before artichokes.

So now the challenge: Show me a legitimate double blinded placebo-controlled multi-centered study by physicians who are NOT a part of nor financially benefit from the "nutrition cult" that has been published in a legitimate medical journal that shows that following any of the garbage promoted by these gurus beyond what is in large bold type just above prevents disease or extends life. Rotsa ruck.

[retiredguy123]

Why bother with double blind tests? Apparently, you can sell anything and make millions by just paying people to present unconfirmed testimonials on television, with no reseach at all. There are a lot of gullible people who will buy your product.

[golfing eagles]

Why bother with double blind tests? Apparently, you can sell anything and make millions by just paying people to present unconfirmed testimonials on television, with no reseach at all. There are a lot of gullible people who will buy your product.

Exactly! Which is why they won't ever do such a study----it would be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. And since this has become a huge multibillion dollar industry, the only funding for legitimate physicians to do such a prospective study would have to come from the government. Not going to happen in our current climate, or should I say climate change since they are spending their money chasing that myth.

[Sabella]

This actor is an idiot