Water usage spikes - Way to diagnose the problem

[Maker]

I have a separate water irrigation meter. Did some research into the high water usage issues many people seem to be having. I looked at my irrigation meter and saw it's a SENSUS SRII meter. This is an intelligent meter that saves a lot of usage logs. From the product description located at Positive Displacement Meters | SR II Water Meters | Sensus (https://sensus.com/products/sr-ii-meters/)

The Sensus® Electronic Register+™ is an advanced electronic register with 120 days of hourly data logging with 30-day data pull intervals available. The Electronic Register+ has several available smart alarms so you can get alerts and address issues before they become more costly. These alarms include tampering, low battery, customer leak, reverse flow and high flow.

I highlighted about HOURLY readings being stored by the device. This is the key to figuring out what's happening.
If there is a sudden unexplained huge jump in monthly use, the meter can be queried to show exactly how much water was used every hour of every day for the month. From that information, it would be possible to analyze:
1. Continual consistent water use only at normal irrigation times (likely meaning the meter is reading properly, and no leaks)
2. A one time spike that triggered a single reading of thousands of gallons (a glitch that shows the meter is defective and that usage is not valid).
3. Continuous water flow (leak).
4. Water flow recorded randomly, when irrigation system is off (bad meter).
5. List of saved (or lack of any) internal alarms (clues to the cause of the problem).
6. Does the sum of hourly use history add up to the monthly total (bad meter if different).
7. Consistent usage that jumps to a different continual use (bad irrigation head, system piping leak).

If I can find this information, why has the villages not taken action to positively resolve this metering problem?
They could retrieve this data to diagnose problems with factual information. Show me this hourly data for any customer that thinks their bill is bogus, and I could probably narrow the reason in almost every case.

[Bill14564]

My meter is a Sensus but I don't recall which model. I wonder if all that logging was available 10 years ago when mine was purchased?

You're right, if the logs are available then they could be used to identify a continuous usage over a period of time or a one-time spike showing an hourly usage that might not even be physically possible.

[Maker]

If you irrigate twice a week, and the meter shows 1000, 1000, 25000, 1000, 1000, 1000, 1000, 1000 gallons used...
That is a bad reading.
Nobody should have to pay for that. Especially if you irrigate at 4am, and that huge number happened at 1pm.

[fdpaq0580]

I have a separate water irrigation meter. Did some research into the high water usage issues many people seem to be having. I looked at my irrigation meter and saw it's a SENSUS SRII meter. This is an intelligent meter that saves a lot of usage logs. From the product description located at Positive Displacement Meters | SR II Water Meters | Sensus (https://sensus.com/products/sr-ii-meters/)

The Sensus® Electronic Register+™ is an advanced electronic register with 120 days of hourly data logging with 30-day data pull intervals available. The Electronic Register+ has several available smart alarms so you can get alerts and address issues before they become more costly. These alarms include tampering, low battery, customer leak, reverse flow and high flow.

I highlighted about HOURLY readings being stored by the device. This is the key to figuring out what's happening.
If there is a sudden unexplained huge jump in monthly use, the meter can be queried to show exactly how much water was used every hour of every day for the month. From that information, it would be possible to analyze:
1. Continual consistent water use only at normal irrigation times (likely meaning the meter is reading properly, and no leaks)
2. A one time spike that triggered a single reading of thousands of gallons (a glitch that shows the meter is defective and that usage is not valid).
3. Continuous water flow (leak).
4. Water flow recorded randomly, when irrigation system is off (bad meter).
5. List of saved (or lack of any) internal alarms (clues to the cause of the problem).
6. Does the sum of hourly use history add up to the monthly total (bad meter if different).
7. Consistent usage that jumps to a different continual use (bad irrigation head, system piping leak).

If I can find this information, why has the villages not taken action to positively resolve this metering problem?
They could retrieve this data to diagnose problems with factual information. Show me this hourly data for any customer that thinks their bill is bogus, and I could probably narrow the reason in almost every case.

We had a spike 50,000 gal over a 3day period. Water Co gave all kinds of reasons why it could have happened. All water was shut off at the wall valves. Would have been shut off but pool Co needs to be able to manually add a few gals if needed. We were gone and got the bill on our return. Pool Co records show them not at the house during the days the spike occurred. HAd plumber and leak specialist check. Result, no leaks found, no evidence of water leakage. Water Co flatly stated that if the meter said it ran, the problem cannot possibly be on their side. Even suggested that neighbors had stolen water. Our pool only holds @10,000 gal and running the hose for its initial fill took five days. 50k in 3 days is mission impossible. They (water co) stonewalling) say their meter checks out OK an their equip never fails, so it's our problem.
Sure hate having to deal with monopolies. The battle goes on.

[Maker]

We had a spike 50,000 gal over a 3day period. Water Co gave all kinds of reasons why it could have happened. All water was shut off at the wall valves. Would have been shut off but pool Co needs to be able to manually add a few gals if needed. We were gone and got the bill on our return. Pool Co records show them not at the house during the days the spike occurred. HAd plumber and leak specialist check. Result, no leaks found, no evidence of water leakage. Water Co flatly stated that if the meter said it ran, the problem cannot possibly be on their side. Even suggested that neighbors had stolen water. Our pool only holds @10,000 gal and running the hose for its initial fill took five days. 50k in 3 days is mission impossible. They (water co) stonewalling) say their meter checks out OK an their equip never fails, so it's our problem.
Sure hate having to deal with monopolies. The battle goes on.

If the water company pulled the hourly readings, and it showed 50000 gallons used in one hour of that 3 day period, I think your case would be open and shut.
Typical flow rates for fire trucks are 1000 to 2000 gallons per minute, but only when supplied by a hydrant with a 4" or larger connection.

Look at your meter. Find the model number. Mine says SENSUS top left, in green letters. Then says SRII/aS+ on the left of the LCD screen, with that text rotated 90deg CCW.

[Altavia]

Flume works great for monitoring irrigation water:

Flume Water | Smart Home Water Monitor | Water Leak Detector (https://flumewater.com/)

Options for home Water leak detection system:

Best Water Leak Detector Systems of 2020 - Consumer Reports (https://www.consumerreports.org/water-leak-detector-systems/best-water-leak-detector-systems-a5629983626/)

[Worldseries27]

If the florida psc is anything like the ones up northeast, you can demand a testing of the meter. Up north it was free and you could witness the test
good luck
post back how it works for you

[dshoberg]

I have a separate water irrigation meter. Did some research into the high water usage issues many people seem to be having. I looked at my irrigation meter and saw it's a SENSUS SRII meter. This is an intelligent meter that saves a lot of usage logs. From the product description located at Positive Displacement Meters | SR II Water Meters | Sensus (https://sensus.com/products/sr-ii-meters/)

The Sensus® Electronic Register+™ is an advanced electronic register with 120 days of hourly data logging with 30-day data pull intervals available. The Electronic Register+ has several available smart alarms so you can get alerts and address issues before they become more costly. These alarms include tampering, low battery, customer leak, reverse flow and high flow.

I highlighted about HOURLY readings being stored by the device. This is the key to figuring out what's happening.
If there is a sudden unexplained huge jump in monthly use, the meter can be queried to show exactly how much water was used every hour of every day for the month. From that information, it would be possible to analyze:
1. Continual consistent water use only at normal irrigation times (likely meaning the meter is reading properly, and no leaks)
2. A one time spike that triggered a single reading of thousands of gallons (a glitch that shows the meter is defective and that usage is not valid).
3. Continuous water flow (leak).
4. Water flow recorded randomly, when irrigation system is off (bad meter).
5. List of saved (or lack of any) internal alarms (clues to the cause of the problem).
6. Does the sum of hourly use history add up to the monthly total (bad meter if different).
7. Consistent usage that jumps to a different continual use (bad irrigation head, system piping leak).

If I can find this information, why has the villages not taken action to positively resolve this metering problem?
They could retrieve this data to diagnose problems with factual information. Show me this hourly data for any customer that thinks their bill is bogus, and I could probably narrow the reason in almost every case.
You are right on the money! I did research on the Sensus SRII meter and found the same results. It is a very uphill battle dealing with the water department. I feel sorry for the customer service people taking the calls and having to give out scripted responses to cover up this major problem.

[Malsua]

Flume works great for monitoring irrigation water:

Flume Water | Smart Home Water Monitor | Water Leak Detector (https://flumewater.com/)



I installed one of these when we had a 30000+ gallon bill. We weren't full time at that point.

I narrowed down the excess usage in about 2 minutes. Zone 4 of my irrigation had a broken pipe.

The flume gives you minute by minute granularity on water usage.

Since then it has detected a leaking toilet and a hose bib that was left on by a landscaper who filled a buck and didn't close the valve tight.

I highly recommend them, most definitely if you aren't full time.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

We had a spike 50,000 gal over a 3day period. Water Co gave all kinds of reasons why it could have happened. All water was shut off at the wall valves. Would have been shut off but pool Co needs to be able to manually add a few gals if needed. We were gone and got the bill on our return. Pool Co records show them not at the house during the days the spike occurred. HAd plumber and leak specialist check. Result, no leaks found, no evidence of water leakage. Water Co flatly stated that if the meter said it ran, the problem cannot possibly be on their side. Even suggested that neighbors had stolen water. Our pool only holds @10,000 gal and running the hose for its initial fill took five days. 50k in 3 days is mission impossible. They (water co) stonewalling) say their meter checks out OK an their equip never fails, so it's our problem.
Sure hate having to deal with monopolies. The battle goes on.

Is there not any oversight to CCDs utilities?

find a class action lawyer ?

[john352]

Maker,
What is the age of your home? My home is 19 years old and I doubt all the homes south of 466 have the same brand and model number water meter.

[Maker]

Maker,
What is the age of your home? My home is 19 years old and I doubt all the homes south of 466 have the same brand and model number water meter.

It's newer, but smart meters have been around for a while. Find yours and look up its capabilities. Post the results.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

I have a separate water irrigation meter. Did some research into the high water usage issues many people seem to be having. I looked at my irrigation meter and saw it's a SENSUS SRII meter. This is an intelligent meter that saves a lot of usage logs. From the product description located at Positive Displacement Meters | SR II Water Meters | Sensus (https://sensus.com/products/sr-ii-meters/)

The Sensus® Electronic Register+™ is an advanced electronic register with 120 days of hourly data logging with 30-day data pull intervals available. The Electronic Register+ has several available smart alarms so you can get alerts and address issues before they become more costly. These alarms include tampering, low battery, customer leak, reverse flow and high flow.



So how does one pull the data?

Bluetooth?

Manual plug?

App needed?

need more information from any actual users. . I can check the web page,
but an actual user gives a better answer than sales and marketing

[Maker]

So how does one pull the data?

Bluetooth?

Manual plug?

App needed?

need more information from any actual users. . I can check the web page,
but an actual user gives a better answer than sales and marketing

The Villages water department would have to pull the data. Requires special readers. One advantage is that they are in control of that data, and disputing the values would be admitting their meter is not correct.

[mvbird]

I read this post and had to write. We are feeling absolutely sick tonight. Our utility bill is $720.94 for the month of July.... Villages water called a few days ago to say we used 77,890 gallons of water. We live in Massachusetts, the 2 br house in Duval is occupied by 1 woman, no pool, and our property manager has been there and says there is no evidence of leaks. Now we are thinking about what to do... call a plumber or a lawyer or both. It's impossible. A leak of that size would fill the house from floor to ceiling. I was relieved to read your post but then at the end you write 'the battle goes on'... I don't know if I've got the strength for a fight. mvbird

We had a spike 50,000 gal over a 3day period. Water Co gave all kinds of reasons why it could have happened. All water was shut off at the wall valves. Would have been shut off but pool Co needs to be able to manually add a few gals if needed. We were gone and got the bill on our return. Pool Co records show them not at the house during the days the spike occurred. HAd plumber and leak specialist check. Result, no leaks found, no evidence of water leakage. Water Co flatly stated that if the meter said it ran, the problem cannot possibly be on their side. Even suggested that neighbors had stolen water. Our pool only holds @10,000 gal and running the hose for its initial fill took five days. 50k in 3 days is mission impossible. They (water co) stonewalling) say their meter checks out OK an their equip never fails, so it's our problem.
Sure hate having to deal with monopolies. The battle goes on.

[Bill14564]

I read this post and had to write. We are feeling absolutely sick tonight. Our utility bill is $720.94 for the month of July.... Villages water called a few days ago to say we used 77,890 gallons of water. We live in Massachusetts, the 2 br house in Duval is occupied by 1 woman, no pool, and our property manager has been there and says there is no evidence of leaks. Now we are thinking about what to do... call a plumber or a lawyer or both. It's impossible. A leak of that size would fill the house from floor to ceiling. I was relieved to read your post but then at the end you write 'the battle goes on'... I don't know if I've got the strength for a fight. mvbird

...

Some thoughts:

- The District is going to contend that the meter doesn't fail and so any reading must be due to water flowing through. I don't believe in the infallibility of electronics but if there is a glitch in the electronic part of the meter it will be impossible to prove.

- First, make absolutely sure you don't have a leak. A leaky toilet could be an issue. A running garden hose could be an issue. A geyser from your irrigation system could be an issue. If you have any of these problems and actually did use the water then your options are limited.

- The data sheet for the Sensus SR2 meter that you likely have claims it records hourly readings for the last 90 days. I would insist that they provide you with the hourly readings for the particular time period. Hopefully, one or more of those readings will be over 1,300 gals/hour which should not be physically possible.

- There are one-time forgiveness programs that you should ask about; one for leaks that you identify and correct and the other for completely unexplained usage. The only problem is the District has decided to forgive at the Tier 1 rate while they have charged most of that water at the higher Tier 3 rate. You could get at least some of the money forgiven though you would still pay quite a bit.

- Come to one of the NSCUDD meetings and complain. It probably won't make a lot of difference but at least you will add your name to the list of homeowners who have experienced this issue.

- Talk to the POA. They have been gathering information on this problem and may have suggestions.

- Talk to a lawyer. You are one of about 70 (I believe that is the number) homeowners that have had unexplained water usage in the 25K, 50K, or 75K range. It seems extremely suspicious that the unexplained usages are multiples of 25K. It might be possible to put together some kind of suit based on that. The lawyer might also be able to find other places that have dealt with similar problems with the Sensus SR2. I tried to search on the internet but didn't find much useful information which didn't surprise me since Sensus would not advertise something like that.

[mvbird]

Thank you for quick reply. We will begin by calling a plumber this morning. Utility bill shows all the water was indoor potable, not irrigation. Dread arguing with Villages water after what I've read here.

[dewilson58]

Some thoughts:

- The District is going to contend that the meter doesn't fail and so any reading must be due to water flowing through. I don't believe in the infallibility of electronics but if there is a glitch in the electronic part of the meter it will be impossible to prove.



I'm hearing they ARE having issues.

They are quietly changing some meters around our 10 year old neighborhood.

But, their first line of defense is: the meter doesn't fail

[Maker]

I have been gathering data from a Flume water usage monitor.
Seeing weird spikes happening for ONE MINUTE, then back to normal. Happening several times within every hour time period.
This would indicate pulling hourly meter data would NOT identify these spikes, since they are always happening, and would not stand out in any single hour.
If these spikes are real, then these meters are pure junk.

[Bill14564]

I have been gathering data from a Flume water usage monitor.
Seeing weird spikes happening for ONE MINUTE, then back to normal. Happening several times within every hour time period.
This would indicate pulling hourly meter data would NOT identify these spikes, since they are always happening, and would not stand out in any single hour.
If these spikes are real, then these meters are pure junk.

You are seeing the Flume registering spikes of water flowing through it?

[mvbird]

In case anyone is experiencing the same problem, we're continuing our story about our impossibly high water/sewer spike on our July water bill. And if you have the same problem, please 'pipe up'.

Some very helpful posters directed me to read the POA newsletters (Village Property Owners) and also many many pages of CDD tips on water savings.

Our spike in water usage is all indoor potable water, not irrigation. It would take a lot of toilet leaking and faucet dripping to get to nearly 78,000 gallons, but we have checked and nothing indoors or out seems to be leaking. There remains the worry that there could be a broken pipe somewhere.

This morning we called the Villages Utility Customer Service line 352-750-0000. They will send someone out to do a 'pressure & flow' test. We must sit tight for 3-5 days until a report comes in.

[Bill14564]

In case anyone is experiencing the same problem, we're continuing our story about our impossibly high water/sewer spike on our July water bill. And if you have the same problem, please 'pipe up'.

Some very helpful posters directed me to read the POA newsletters (Village Property Owners) and also many many pages of CDD tips on water savings.

Our spike in water usage is all indoor potable water, not irrigation. It would take a lot of toilet leaking and faucet dripping to get to nearly 78,000 gallons, but we have checked and nothing indoors or out seems to be leaking. There remains the worry that there could be a broken pipe somewhere.

This morning we called the Villages Utility Customer Service line 352-750-0000. They will send someone out to do a 'pressure & flow' test. We must sit tight for 3-5 days until a report comes in.

You can read your own meter to see if water is flowing.

Out in your yard should be two boxes in the ground. For us, we have a box on each side of our property. One box is for irrigation and the other is for potable water. Inside each box are two meters, one for us and one for the neighbor on that particular side. I believe the boxes will be marked as irrigation or potable water though I can't remember what the marking is.

Be careful removing the cover as there are wires attached to it. The wires should be long enough to allow you to set the cover to the side, just be careful not to pull the wires. Also, watch for critters that might be hiding from the heat.

My meter has a cover over an LCD display. The display is normally off but when light hits it then it turns on. You don't know which meter is yours yet though you can guess that it's the one closest to your house. If neither meter is moving (incrementing) then no water is flowing which is a good indication that there no broken pipe.

Have someone turn a faucet on in your house and look at the meters again. This time you should see one moving - that one is yours. To be sure, turn the faucet off and see that it stops running.

The numbers on the meter should be close to the numbers on your bill. Of course, a few days have passed so they will be a little higher, but they should be close. With two people in our house we use about 50gals/day of potable water. Your 78,000gal month would be 2,600gals/day. It should be pretty easy to see the difference between those two numbers in the usage indicate by your meter.

The internet tells me a constantly running toilet can use up to 4,000gals/day. We had a small leak in a gasket that led to a bill for 25,000 gals (800gals/day) at our house. We were away at the time but it was small enough I'm not sure we would have noticed it. Your usage is three times what ours was so I imagine you would notice if a toilet was running that much.

[Rainger99]

What is the average indoor water use per home? We use about 4,000 gallons a month. I estimate that 90 % is used with laundry, dishwasher, and showers.

[Bruce3055]

I have a separate water irrigation meter. Did some research into the high water usage issues many people seem to be having. I looked at my irrigation meter and saw it's a SENSUS SRII meter. This is an intelligent meter that saves a lot of usage logs. From the product description located at Positive Displacement Meters | SR II Water Meters | Sensus (https://sensus.com/products/sr-ii-meters/)

The Sensus® Electronic Register+™ is an advanced electronic register with 120 days of hourly data logging with 30-day data pull intervals available. The Electronic Register+ has several available smart alarms so you can get alerts and address issues before they become more costly. These alarms include tampering, low battery, customer leak, reverse flow and high flow.

I highlighted about HOURLY readings being stored by the device. This is the key to figuring out what's happening.
If there is a sudden unexplained huge jump in monthly use, the meter can be queried to show exactly how much water was used every hour of every day for the month. From that information, it would be possible to analyze:
1. Continual consistent water use only at normal irrigation times (likely meaning the meter is reading properly, and no leaks)
2. A one time spike that triggered a single reading of thousands of gallons (a glitch that shows the meter is defective and that usage is not valid).
3. Continuous water flow (leak).
4. Water flow recorded randomly, when irrigation system is off (bad meter).
5. List of saved (or lack of any) internal alarms (clues to the cause of the problem).
6. Does the sum of hourly use history add up to the monthly total (bad meter if different).
7. Consistent usage that jumps to a different continual use (bad irrigation head, system piping leak).

If I can find this information, why has the villages not taken action to positively resolve this metering problem?
They could retrieve this data to diagnose problems with factual information. Show me this hourly data for any customer that thinks their bill is bogus, and I could probably narrow the reason in almost every case.

If you could prove your points 2, 4, about a bad meter that returns to normal usage (although you didn’t specifically say that it returns to normal usage). You would be a hero to folks all over the country who have unexplained water bills.

A more important point is that with intelligent meters, water companies across the country are beginning to offer customers the ability to be notified real time of water spikes. They attach a ‘reader” to water towers that can continuously monitor water usage and notify customers of spikes if they opt in for the service. (They don’t need to be accused of being invasive for those that don’t want the service)

I mention this hoping many will push our village water supplier
(Probably not the developer or DeSantis) to raise our water bill Pennie’s across all customers to pay for this capability.


‘

[daniel200]

So how does one pull the data?

Bluetooth?

Manual plug?

App needed?

need more information from any actual users. . I can check the web page,
but an actual user gives a better answer than sales and marketing

It is a wireless signal. There are two types of systems commonly used: AMR and AMI. AMR requires a guy to drive around with a handheld device and collect the data. AMI does not require a guy driving around. I believe most meters in the villages use AMR.

You can buy a reader (they are expensive); but then you probably need some additional data in order to tell the device to pull the data from your meter (and not your neighbors)

[Maker]

Spikes are within one minute. For example, per minute water flow in GPM during one irrigation zone...
3
3
3
7.2
3
3

My potable water per month is 3500-4500 gallons.

Point 2: "A one time spike that triggered a single reading of thousands of gallons (a glitch that shows the meter is defective and that usage is not valid)."
It appears to be happening many times, 1 to 4 times per hour. I know someone else that is compiling lots of data. The sum of all could be quite significant. Who knows if every meter is acting with the same scale of spiking.

[Bill14564]

Spikes are within one minute. For example, per minute water flow in GPM during one irrigation zone...
3
3
3
7.2
3
3

My potable water per month is 3500-4500 gallons.

Point 2: "A one time spike that triggered a single reading of thousands of gallons (a glitch that shows the meter is defective and that usage is not valid)."
It appears to be happening many times, 1 to 4 times per hour. I know someone else that is compiling lots of data. The sum of all could be quite significant. Who knows if every meter is acting with the same scale of spiking.

It isn't clear whether you are seeing valid spikes in water flow or errors in the Flume. In either case you seem to be attributing it to the meter when the meter has no affect on what you are seeing at all.

The Flume is giving you the per minute readings with the spikes, not the meter. Is it possible that whatever is using the 3gpm occasionally draws 7.2gpm? Is it possible that your have a sprinkler type that sometimes allows a surge in flow?

Since these readings are from the Flume, is it possible there is an error in the Flume? The sensor for the Flume devices I have seen doesn't actually touch the water, it listens for the water to flow through the pipe. Is it possible that Flume is "hearing" something that it believes is a 4.2gpm increase but really is not?

And in any case, the water meter does not cause water to flow or regulate the water flow it simply measures what is going through it. The meter doesn't measure how fast the water is flowing (gpm) it measures how much water passed through it (gallons). The change in the rate of flow that you saw in your Flume device has nothing to do with the meter. The meter will simply measure how much water moved through it.

According to the data sheet, the meter ought to be able to give water usage per hour. The spikes you observed would not invalidate those measurements at all. The meter would show how much water passed through it in an hour, regardless of whether the flow was continuous for the entire 60 minutes or spiked four times per hour.

The value of the hourly readings would be to show an impossible water usage. If the hourly readings showed 800gals used each and every hour then they would not help at all. However, if the hourly readings showed 25,000 gals used between 1PM and 2PM then it could very easily be argued that it is not physically possible for water to flow through that meter at a rate of 420gpm. Since the meter registered an utterly impossible number, there must have been an error in the meter.

That would be the value of the hourly readings. Obtaining them is going to be a problem. And even once obtained, they might not show the impossible reading that you would like to see.

[arbajeda]

Just because it has the capability doesn't mean The Villages is using it. You would have to ask to find out. They probably do not use it.

[Bruce3055]

Some thoughts:

- The District is going to contend that the meter doesn't fail and so any reading must be due to water flowing through. I don't believe in the infallibility of electronics but if there is a glitch in the electronic part of the meter it will be impossible to prove.

- First, make absolutely sure you don't have a leak. A leaky toilet could be an issue. A running garden hose could be an issue. A geyser from your irrigation system could be an issue. If you have any of these problems and actually did use the water then your options are limited.

- The data sheet for the Sensus SR2 meter that you likely have claims it records hourly readings for the last 90 days. I would insist that they provide you with the hourly readings for the particular time period. Hopefully, one or more of those readings will be over 1,300 gals/hour which should not be physically possible.

- There are one-time forgiveness programs that you should ask about; one for leaks that you identify and correct and the other for completely unexplained usage. The only problem is the District has decided to forgive at the Tier 1 rate while they have charged most of that water at the higher Tier 3 rate. You could get at least some of the money forgiven though you would still pay quite a bit.

- Come to one of the NSCUDD meetings and complain. It probably won't make a lot of difference but at least you will add your name to the list of homeowners who have experienced this issue.

- Talk to the POA. They have been gathering information on this problem and may have suggestions.

- Talk to a lawyer. You are one of about 70 (I believe that is the number) homeowners that have had unexplained water usage in the 25K, 50K, or 75K range. It seems extremely suspicious that the unexplained usages are multiples of 25K. It might be possible to put together some kind of suit based on that. The lawyer might also be able to find other places that have dealt with similar problems with the Sensus SR2. I tried to search on the internet but didn't find much useful information which didn't surprise me since Sensus would not advertise something like that.

I think hiring an engineer to prove water meters can spike without water running through the meter and then return to normal for months or years would be more profitable than hiring a lawyer. Folks all over the country with high water bills would appreciate your efforts

And I don’t think the village water company would dispute your findings either with empirical facts.

Good luck

[Bill14564]

I think hiring an engineer to prove water meters can spike without water running through the meter and then return to normal for months or years would be more profitable than hiring a lawyer. Folks all over the country with high water bills would appreciate your efforts

And I don’t think the village water company would dispute your findings either with empirical facts.

Good luck

It would not be more profitable for me (or any one individual) and it would be much more difficult to do.

That there is an issue is clear to anyone who hasn't dug in their heels. A google search can find a few cases around the country where customers have sued water departments about malfunctioning meters. In one case a meter was counting the water that was flowing through it while it was sitting in a box on a shelf. In another case, under certain conditions the water in the meter was "stuttering" due to a backflow valve on one side and fluctuating pressure on another side - the meter kept counting the same water over and over as the water bounced back and forth. Stuff happens though very, very infrequently.

Hiring a lawyer means convincing a judge or jury that something is happening even though there is no analysis of exactly how it is happening. While the utility might claim that the meter absolutely only counts when water is flowing through it the judge or jury might look at a list of questionable readings and wonder if "absolutely" was accurate.

If I remember correctly (I probably don't) the POA collected concerns from about 70 people over the past couple of years. With over 100,000 meters in place and some running for over ten years, 70 cases in the past couple of years is tiny percentage. Finding the right set of conditions where a glitch can occur in 70 readings out of 6,000,000 readings (five years) will be very difficult. Paying an engineer to keep trying until he finds the conditions could be very expensive.

In any case, it is no longer my issue. I had my 25,000 gal reading three years ago. I *did* have a leak that *could* have used that much water so I didn't have any hope of disputing the usage. If it happens to me again then I will have to consider how to deal with it.

Again, pushing the District to provide the hourly readings over the billing period could help if they show an impossible reading during any particular hour. If the meter truly glitched then that is what I would expect to see.

Also, the new(ish) forgiveness policy is a step in the right direction. They really need to fix the Tier 1 reimbursement portion but at least they have something in place.

[Bill14564]

It isn't clear whether you are seeing valid spikes in water flow or errors in the Flume. In either case you seem to be attributing it to the meter when the meter has no affect on what you are seeing at all.

The Flume is giving you the per minute readings with the spikes, not the meter. Is it possible that whatever is using the 3gpm occasionally draws 7.2gpm? Is it possible that your have a sprinkler type that sometimes allows a surge in flow?

Since these readings are from the Flume, is it possible there is an error in the Flume? The sensor for the Flume devices I have seen doesn't actually touch the water, it listens for the water to flow through the pipe. Is it possible that Flume is "hearing" something that it believes is a 4.2gpm increase but really is not?

And in any case, the water meter does not cause water to flow or regulate the water flow it simply measures what is going through it. The meter doesn't measure how fast the water is flowing (gpm) it measures how much water passed through it (gallons). The change in the rate of flow that you saw in your Flume device has nothing to do with the meter. The meter will simply measure how much water moved through it.

According to the data sheet, the meter ought to be able to give water usage per hour. The spikes you observed would not invalidate those measurements at all. The meter would show how much water passed through it in an hour, regardless of whether the flow was continuous for the entire 60 minutes or spiked four times per hour.

The value of the hourly readings would be to show an impossible water usage. If the hourly readings showed 800gals used each and every hour then they would not help at all. However, if the hourly readings showed 25,000 gals used between 1PM and 2PM then it could very easily be argued that it is not physically possible for water to flow through that meter at a rate of 420gpm. Since the meter registered an utterly impossible number, there must have been an error in the meter.

That would be the value of the hourly readings. Obtaining them is going to be a problem. And even once obtained, they might not show the impossible reading that you would like to see.

It was pointed out to me today that the Flume essentially acts as a second electronic register for the water meter. The mechanics of the meter cause a disk to spin. The meter's electronic register counts the number of times the disk spins and converts that to gallons. The Flume meter reads the same disk and performs the same calculations.

That being the case, measurements from the Flume could help identify a problem. The bigger issue would be convincing the utility that your Flume readings are correct while their Sensus readings are wrong. At the very least you would have some kind of documentation that the meter reading is wrong and not just an assertion that the water was turned off.

[mvbird]

I anyone is following this mystery, it's finally concluding. (77, 890 gal. usage of potable water in 1 month..)

Early on, observation around property by prop. manager saw no wet areas or ponds.
Next, a visit by Villages water utility concluded that the meter seemed to be working properly i.e. when nothing indoors was using water, the meter was not registering any use. A great relief that there were no leaks that required digging up the yard..
And last after waiting a month, we received a call and a long email --- the data log of our meter which showed all water usage for months by gallons, date, and time of day. Highlighted was a period between June 19- 24 when over 600 gallons of water was used daily.
We are not able to apply for 'unexplained high-water use adjustment' because the utility has the explanation. It was unintentional error in the household. Someone had to have left a hose (water from hose is potable water not irrigation water) on for days.

What we learned ... When you experience a high water/sewer spike on your utility bill, try to stay calm. Pay the terrible bill, be patient, and begin eliminating possible causes one by one. Be courteous, and Customer Service at the Utility will be helpful. Thank you Cindy Neff, Billing and Collections Technician.

[Bill14564]

I anyone is following this mystery, it's finally concluding. (77, 890 gal. usage of potable water in 1 month..)

Early on, observation around property by prop. manager saw no wet areas or ponds.
Next, a visit by Villages water utility concluded that the meter seemed to be working properly i.e. when nothing indoors was using water, the meter was not registering any use. A great relief that there were no leaks that required digging up the yard..
And last after waiting a month, we received a call and a long email --- the data log of our meter which showed all water usage for months by gallons, date, and time of day. Highlighted was a period between June 19- 24 when over 600 gallons of water was used daily.
We are not able to apply for 'unexplained high-water use adjustment' because the utility has the explanation. It was unintentional error in the household. Someone had to have left a hose (water from hose is potable water not irrigation water) on for days.

What we learned ... When you experience a high water/sewer spike on your utility bill, try to stay calm. Pay the terrible bill, be patient, and begin eliminating possible causes one by one. Be courteous, and Customer Service at the Utility will be helpful. Thank you Cindy Neff, Billing and Collections Technician.

I assume you mean 600 gals/hour for the six days as that would make the numbers come out right.

600 gals/hour is 10 gals/min which the internet says is about right for a hose left on.

It's nice to find out that level of detail is available. I hope the date and time info helps you solve the mystery of what happened and how.