SECO's "Surge MitiGator" worthwhile?

[MrLonzo]

My understanding is that SECO's "Surge MitiGator" protects your home's large appliances, but you still need individual surge protection for smaller electronics. I do understand the damage an electrical surge can cause to a personal computer, for example. But in general, I don't understand surge protection. For example, why is surge protection important for appliances that are not being used and are not WiFi enabled (washer, dryer, dishwasher, coffee maker...)? I don't think I'd be running any of these appliances during a thunderstorm. What about refrigerator? What appliances DO need surge protection? Is the Surge MitiGator worth the investment? Thank you!

[dewilson58]

Like lightening protection................"the world may never know".

We had one installed during construction, so the cost was so minor compared to the rest of the house...............we jus said, sure.

[retiredguy123]

In my opinion, it is a waste of money.

Read the warranty. Even if it is a large appliance, if it has a microchip, it is probably not covered. Almost every appliance has a microchip. Also, it does not even cover electrical wiring and outlets. SECO's whole house surge protector is just a way for SECO to increase their profits. They don't provide any data to prove that it will prevent any damage, and their warranty has so many exclusions that it is practically worthless. Also, if surge protectors were really needed, power companies would incorporate into their multi-million dollar power distribution system as part of the design instead of asking customers to pay extra for them.

[Bogie Shooter]

Heavily discussed on this thread.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/weather-talk-515/lightning-strikes-villages-342082/?highlight=Lightening

[Babubhat]

You have homeowners insurance for this. Put protection on outlets

[Altavia]

It's a risk reduction.

After dealing with insurance for months after a lightening strike up north, I have one.

[Stu from NYC]

We have one thru Seco and electronics and expensive appliances have their own.

Others have suggested putting another one on inside your electrical panel, good friend who is an electrical engineer says the Seco one is enough.

In other words who knows just think of it as insurance and would rather not give our insurance company a reason to either raise rates even more or cancel policy.

[Ellwoodrick]

Here is an independent article on the subject.



Does Your Home Need a Whole-house Surge Protector? | HowStuffWorks (https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/whole-house-surge-protector.htm)

[banjobob]

The small fee is a good investment with lightning we have in this area, yes I have surge protectors on electronics also.

[mikeycereal]

I have a few surge protecters for my computer and TV. I know they are not 100% but I use them rather than not.

My favorite time to see/hear a lightning storm is when I'm not at home.

[Berwin]

I recall back in the 90s when whole house surge protectors were coming out hearing that they actually paid for themselves over some period of time. Not by protecting anything (although they did that) but by reducing your electric bill slightly every month. The power coming in from the street fluctuates slightly and by limiting the over voltages you are not paying for that which your appliances happily consume even though they don't need it. We're talking small change here but over time it adds up.

[birdawg]

I think it cost 5-6 dollars.

[retiredguy123]

I recall back in the 90s when whole house surge protectors were coming out hearing that they actually paid for themselves over some period of time. Not by protecting anything (although they did that) but by reducing your electric bill slightly every month. The power coming in from the street fluctuates slightly and by limiting the over voltages you are not paying for that which your appliances happily consume even though they don't need it. We're talking small change here but over time it adds up.
I would like to see the actual data to support that claim. Otherwise, I am very skeptical.

[airstreamingypsy]

I rent the whole house surge guard from SECO, and my electronics are also plugged into APC UPSes. I lost a brand new TV a month after I moved here, to lightning, no problems since I got the APCs.

[Elixir34]

For example, why is surge protection important for appliances that are not being used and are not WiFi enabled (washer, dryer, dishwasher, coffee maker...)? I don't think I'd be running any of these appliances during a thunderstorm. What about refrigerator? What appliances DO need surge protection? Is the Surge MitiGator worth the investment? Thank you![/QUOTE]

Appliances don’t need to be operating to be affected by surge. And surges can enter your home’s AC distribution from other than the SECO power meter. A lightning strike took out our electric stove without activating the SECO meter surge protector. (Both surge protector LEDs were still lit.) It likely entered the house through the irrigation system, because it fried the irrigation controller, the irr. controller individual AC outlet surge protector, and the GFCI outlet into which it was plugged.

[Carlsondm]

My understanding is that SECO's "Surge MitiGator" protects your home's large appliances, but you still need individual surge protection for smaller electronics. I do understand the damage an electrical surge can cause to a personal computer, for example. But in general, I don't understand surge protection. For example, why is surge protection important for appliances that are not being used and are not WiFi enabled (washer, dryer, dishwasher, coffee maker...)? I don't think I'd be running any of these appliances during a thunderstorm. What about refrigerator? What appliances DO need surge protection? Is the Surge MitiGator worth the investment? Thank you!
We had lightening hit our Rose Lake DNR field office in Michigan many years ago. Computers on high quality surge protection (Power Directors, I recall - high joule) survived. The Power Directors, of course, were replaced after the incidence. Everything else plugged into an outlet fried or never worked the same. Good surge protection works.

With the amount of lightening here and the sensitivity of computerized appliances, we spent a few hundred to protect our electrical system and appliances in our new home. Unplug things completely if you are gone for a while. We have whole house and individual surge protection.

[Joe C.]

I had a whole house surge protector installed in my meter by SECO. After a thunderstorm, my dishwasher wouldn't work. It was, however, 20 years old. Mama called the electric company, and they made it very difficult ...... get a repairman to analyze the problem, fill out some forms and mail them in, hopefully get an approval, then get it fixed, then send in a claim, then hopefully get reimbursed (or something to that effect). The cost of getting someone out and analyzing the problem was on us ..... SECO won't pay. And that cost about half of what a new dishwasher would cost. So was it worth it? Just getting a repairman out here to check things out takes a while. So again, was it worth it? Short answer...NO.
Plus, SECO said that they would have to send someone out to see if the surge protector had tripped. Was the green light still on? Or was there a red one lit. We said that there was no green light and they said that they would check out the meter. We told them that we wanted to be notified when they would be out so that we would be home to watch.
Long story short, a few weeks later, my wife called and asked when they were coming. They said that they had already been there and changed the meter, and that nothing was wrong. Why would they change the meter if it wasn't "tripped"?
So anyway, in the meantime we bought a new dishwasher for little more than it would have cost to have a repairman check things out.
In the meantime....we no longer subscribe to the "whole house surge protection plan".
You pay them good money and they make you jump thru hoops.

[jrref]

Surge protection is Not an investment or do you get it for the insurance. You get surge protection to significantly lower the chances of your electronic and none electronic devices being damaged from power surges either immediately or over time.

The MitiGator from Seco is good to have but it only protects you from surges coming from the power lines which is not common. Most destructive surges come in your home through the cable or irregation system or from the pool or HVAC power. That said, you need individual surge protectors on computers, TVs and other electronic equipment AND it's strongly recommended you get what they call a Whole House Surge protector which is a device installed at the electrical circuit breaker panel. This device will protect all your branch circuits in the home from power surges. So for example if you got a power surge induced through your irregation system, it would be shunted at the breaker panel and not spread to the rest of the circuits.

Pikes and Lenhart install the Eaton Ultra surge protector. This is what you want and Pikes is running a sale now.

Once you have this and the point-of-use surge protectors at your computer, TV and other devices, if you want to lower your chances even more get the Seco device.

I don't have hard data but every time I hear about someone getting hit with a damaging surge the Seco device was installed and functioning and there were still many electronic devices damaged. This tells me the surge didn't come in through the power lines outside your home. On the other hand I've not personally heard of anyone getting damage from a power surge with the surge protector such as the Eaton Ultra installed at the circuit breaker panel.

[Altavia]

I had a whole house surge protector installed in my meter by SECO. After a thunderstorm, my dishwasher wouldn't work. It was, however, 20 years old.


The SECO warranty is worthless.

Partially because people try to use it to replace 20 year old dish washers...

[Joe C.]

The SECO warranty is worthless.

Partially because people try to use it to replace 20 year old dish washers...

I didn't want to replace it. I just wanted to get it fixed. It was a burnt motherboard.

[MrLonzo]

The Meeter Treater from Seco is good to have but it only protects you from surges coming from the power lines which is not common. Most destructive surges come in your home through the cable or irregation system or from the pool or HVAC power. That said, you need individual surge protectors on computers, TVs and other electronic equipment AND it's strongly recommended you get what they call a Whole House Surge protector which is a device installed at the electrical circuit breaker panel. This device will protect all your branch circuits in the home from power surges. So for example if you got a power surge induced through your irregation system, it would be shunted at the breaker panel and not spread to the rest of the circuits.

Pikes and Lenhart install the Eaton Ultra surge protector. This is what you want and Pikes is running a sale now.

Once you have this and the point-of-use surge protectors at your computer, TV and other devices, if you want to lower your chances even more get the Seco device.

I don't have hard data but every time I hear about someone getting hit with a damaging surge the Seco device was installed and functioning and there were still many electronic devices damaged. This tells me the surge didn't come in through the power lines outside your home. On the other hand I've not personally heard of anyone getting damage from a power surge with the surge protector such as the Eaton Ultra installed at the circuit breaker panel.

Looks like the Eaton device starts at $550 including installation. The SECO Surge MitiGator starts at $350 including installation (for purchase) or $6/month as an add on to your SECO bill. I couldn't find anything about the "Meeter Treater" from SECO -- is this different from the Surge MitiGator?

In any case, it's another cost/benefit decision. I'm moving from an area that has no lightning storms. I guess my original post was hoping to get an idea of the prevalence of whole home surge protection at the Villages -- 10%? 50%? 90%?

[retiredguy123]

Looks like the Eaton device starts at $550 including installation. The SECO Surge MitiGator starts at $350 including installation (for purchase) or $6/month as an add on to your SECO bill. I couldn't find anything about the "Meeter Treater" from SECO -- is this different from the Surge MitiGator?

In any case, it's another cost/benefit decision. I'm moving from an area that has no lightning storms. I guess my original post was hoping to get an idea of the prevalence of whole home surge protection at the Villages -- 10%? 50%? 90%?
In my neighborhood, less than 20 percent of the houses have the meter extension surge protector installed. You can walk around and see if there is a 2-inch extension between the meter and the house. But, the whole house surge protector is not really supposed to protect your house from lightning, it is more for other types of power surges. But, without some definitive research data on how effective these surge protectors are, I am not willing to buy one.

[Altavia]

Looks like the Eaton device starts at $550 including installation. The SECO Surge MitiGator starts at $350 including installation (for purchase) or $6/month as an add on to your SECO bill. I couldn't find anything about the "Meeter Treater" from SECO -- is this different from the Surge MitiGator?

In any case, it's another cost/benefit decision. I'm moving from an area that has no lightning storms. I guess my original post was hoping to get an idea of the prevalence of whole home surge protection at the Villages -- 10%? 50%? 90%?

It's more what level of risk reduction will make you comfortable in the lightening capital.

Start with protection at the meter or breaker box. Do both for maximum protection.


https://kbelectricpa.com/whole-house-surge-protection-type-1-meter-based-surge-protector/

Add individual protection at key appliances.

One thing to keep in mind is surge protectors degrade over time (as they absorb surges) and may have an expiration date. Typicaly life expectancy is 3-5 years.

What is life expectancy of whole house surge protector? (https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2020/4/what-is-life-expectancy-of-whole-house-surge-protector.html)

[daniel200]

It's more what level of risk reduction will make you comfortable in the lightening capital.

Start with protection at the meter or breaker box. Do both for maximum protection.


https://kbelectricpa.com/whole-house-surge-protection-type-1-meter-based-surge-protector/

Add individual protection at key appliances.

One thing to keep in mind is surge protectors degrade over time (as they absorb surges) and may have an expiration date. Typicaly life expectancy is 3-5 years.

What is life expectancy of whole house surge protector? (https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2020/4/what-is-life-expectancy-of-whole-house-surge-protector.html)


I would add, these whole house surge protectors degrade every time their is a voltage spike coming down the line. After time, they provide less and less protection. The SECO surge protector has two red LED’s that should be “On” at all times. If one or both of the LED’s is not “On”, your surge protector has now failed. You can view the two LED’s by looking into the small plexiglass cover on the side of the protector.

If your surge protector is still under warranty, SECO will replace it for free. So its worth your time to look at the LED status after big lightning storms

[Stu from NYC]

It's more what level of risk reduction will make you comfortable in the lightening capital.

Start with protection at the meter or breaker box. Do both for maximum protection.


https://kbelectricpa.com/whole-house-surge-protection-type-1-meter-based-surge-protector/

Add individual protection at key appliances.

One thing to keep in mind is surge protectors degrade over time (as they absorb surges) and may have an expiration date. Typicaly life expectancy is 3-5 years.

What is life expectancy of whole house surge protector? (https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2020/4/what-is-life-expectancy-of-whole-house-surge-protector.html)

In our area how often do we get surges? Makes me wonder after 3 years if we should replace our individual surge protectors.

[Altavia]

In our area how often do we get surges? Makes me wonder after 3 years if we should replace our individual surge protectors.

If you have a full house protection, 3-5 years should be safe.

Replace with protectors that have indicators they are still functional.

I look for UL listed, maximum Joules plus protectors that give indication function is still good.

Some examples depending on application:

Entertainment Center, cable/router

APC Wall Outlet Multi Plug Extender, P6W, (6) AC Multi Plug Outlet, 1080 Joule Surge Protector white https://a.co/d/eEqdCL1

Tripp Lite TLP1208TELTV 12 Outlet Surge Protector Power Strip, 8ft Cord, Right-Angle Plug, Tel/Modem/Coax Protection, RJ11, & Dollar 150,000 Insurance Black https://a.co/d/bQoHp9C

E.g.: Garage door openers, washer/dryer, irrigation system, tankless water heater:

Belkin 1-Outlet Home Series SurgeCube - Grounded Outlet Portable Wall Tap Adapter with Ground & Protected Light Indicators for Home, Office, Travel, Computer Desktop & Charging Brick-White, 885 Joules https://a.co/d/9jvebzT

Tripp Lite 3 Outlet Portable Surge Protector Power Strip, Direct Plug In, $5,000 INSURANCE (SK3-0), Apple, Grey https://a.co/d/8sIFlVa


This one has an audible alarm when protection is depleated, good for behind appliances.

E.g.: Fridge, oven, microwave, dish washer:

GE UltraPro Surge Protector with Audible Alarm, 2 Pack, Outlet Extender, Fits Behind Hard-to-Reach Areas, End of Service Alarm, 1080 Joules, Warranty, UL Listed, White, 53868 https://a.co/d/52oz5LS

The more surge suppressors installed throughout the house, the more the total surge suppression you'll get.

Surges go to every outlet in your home, they aren't particular - each surge supressor absorbs some of each surge, so there's a cumulative benefit to having multiple suppressors around the house.

[jrref]

Looks like the Eaton device starts at $550 including installation. The SECO Surge MitiGator starts at $350 including installation (for purchase) or $6/month as an add on to your SECO bill. I couldn't find anything about the "Meeter Treater" from SECO -- is this different from the Surge MitiGator?

In any case, it's another cost/benefit decision. I'm moving from an area that has no lightning storms. I guess my original post was hoping to get an idea of the prevalence of whole home surge protection at the Villages -- 10%? 50%? 90%?

MitiGator is what Seco calls it and it's the same device. We live in one of the lightning capitals of the world so surge and lightning protection should be considered carefully.

[jrref]

I understand this video is produced by Levitton to advertise their products but it does give a great overview of surge protection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fThJzINQF9A

[jrref]

In our area how often do we get surges? Makes me wonder after 3 years if we should replace our individual surge protectors.

This is a hard question to answer becasue there is no way for a consumer to know when a surge protector is "worn out" or not working other than the indicator lights.

But I can say if you have multiple layers of surge protection such as the Eaton Ultra, and or the Seco MitiGator the level of any power surges reaching your point-of-use surge protectors on your computers, TVs, etc will be significantly less and therefore have a lower long term impact on the devices in the surge protector. So you can probably get away with not replacing them for 5 years or more. The Eaton Ultra is warrentied for 5 years so from their experience that's the life time of their surge protector product. Also remember once it's installed it should be way cheaper to replace since all the installation work is done and only the device needs replacement.

[DonnaNi4os]

My understanding is that SECO's "Surge MitiGator" protects your home's large appliances, but you still need individual surge protection for smaller electronics. I do understand the damage an electrical surge can cause to a personal computer, for example. But in general, I don't understand surge protection. For example, why is surge protection important for appliances that are not being used and are not WiFi enabled (washer, dryer, dishwasher, coffee maker...)? I don't think I'd be running any of these appliances during a thunderstorm. What about refrigerator? What appliances DO need surge protection? Is the Surge MitiGator worth the investment? Thank you!

You don’t need to be using your appliances or computer, tv, etc. They just need to be plugged in for a surge to destroy them. The more protection you have on these items the less likely they are to be damaged in a surge. If a lightning strikes near your home there is still a possibility damage will be unpreventable. In my home, and in my opinion, the more layers of protection you can add to protect your devices the better. And yes, I have SECO ‘s Surge-mitigator in my home and one on my AC unit outside.

[retiredguy123]

I didn't want to replace it. I just wanted to get it fixed. It was a burnt motherboard.
Not sure, but they may have denied a claim to replace the motherboard because their "exclusion" clause says that any equipment with a microchip or a microprocessor is not covered.

[Altavia]

I understand this video is produced by Levitton to advertise their products but it does give a great overview of surge protection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fThJzINQF9A

Nice overview!

I don't understand why they say a class 2 is functionally better than class 1 for inside?

Geeking out for a minute... Electrically, they connect to the same point in the breaker box.

Class 1 is connected directly to the buss bar using 2ga wire.

Class 2 is connected to the buss bar through a circuit breaker using 14ga wire.

In respect to a high voltage transient, seems Class 1 should have a lower impedance path to ground?

[jrref]

Nice overview!

I don't understand why they say a class 2 is functionally better than class 1 for inside?

Geeking out for a minute... Electrically, they connect to the same point in the breaker box.

Class 1 is connected directly to the buss bar using 2ga wire.

Class 2 is connected to the buss bar through a circuit breaker using 14ga wire.

In respect to a high voltage transient, seems Class 1 should have a lower impedance path to ground?

You are thinking about power and voltage at Steady State which is not the case with a power surge.

When you get a power surge besides the over voltage level, the duration of the surge also varies. Many power surges are very fast, less than a millisecond or two so the length of wire between the circuit with the surge and the surge protector itself becomes significant. Because the Type-2 protector at the circuit breaker panel is the closest to all the branch circuits, it should catch almost all the power surges. The Type-1 surge protector at the meter, in relative terms, is too far from the origin of the surge if it doesn't originate from the power lines outside the house and won't catch it. If the surge duration was long then you are correct the Type-1 at the meter would have an effect in clamping the over voltage.

When you read the Eaton Ultra installation instructions, Eaton wants the surge protector to have the shortest wire length to the connection points inside your circuit breaker panel for this reason.

[jrref]

You don’t need to be using your appliances or computer, tv, etc. They just need to be plugged in for a surge to destroy them. The more protection you have on these items the less likely they are to be damaged in a surge. If a lightning strikes near your home there is still a possibility damage will be unpreventable. In my home, and in my opinion, the more layers of protection you can add to protect your devices the better. And yes, I have SECO ‘s Surge-mitigator in my home and one on my AC unit outside.

Good for you installing a surge protector on the A/C unit power disconnect outside. You can also install that type of surge protector on the power disconnect at you pool and hot tub. These are called Type-2 protectors and one popular one is made by Intermatic. I also have an Intermatic Surge protector installed at my HVAC and Hot Tub power disconnects. More layers, More protection.

Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-AG3000-Surge-Protector/dp/B008VM6MXI/ref=asc_df_B008VM6MXI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193994910693&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6922149466476984377&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011777&hvtargid=pla-312757213355&psc=1)

[Altavia]

You are thinking about power and voltage at Steady State which is not the case with a power surge.

When you get a power surge besides the over voltage level, the duration of the surge also varies. Many power surges are very fast, less than a millisecond or two so the length of wire between the circuit with the surge and the surge protector itself becomes significant. Because the Type-2 protector at the circuit breaker panel is the closest to all the branch circuits, it should catch almost all the power surges. The Type-1 surge protector at the meter, in relative terms, is too far from the origin of the surge if it doesn't originate from the power lines outside the house and won't catch it. If the surge duration was long then you are correct the Type-1 at the meter would have an effect in clamping the over voltage.

When you read the Eaton Ultra installation instructions, Eaton wants the surge protector to have the shortest wire length to the connection points inside your circuit breaker panel for this reason.

Understood, true for installations where the wire from the meter to the box is typically several feet long.

But here (at least current installations), the wire from the meter runs directly through the garage wall into the breaker box and is very short so probably not a significant difference.

[Dusty_Star]

Good for you installing a surge protector on the A/C unit power disconnect outside. You can also install that type of surge protector on the power disconnect at you pool and hot tub. These are called Type-2 protectors and one popular one is made by Intermatic. I also have an Intermatic Surge protector installed at my HVAC and Hot Tub power disconnects. More layers, More protection.

Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-AG3000-Surge-Protector/dp/B008VM6MXI/ref=asc_df_B008VM6MXI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193994910693&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6922149466476984377&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011777&hvtargid=pla-312757213355&psc=1)

Do we probably also need one for the mini-split?

Thanks!

[bob47]

Our last house had a surge protector installed in the breaker panel. I don't know if it ever protected us from a big surge like a nearby lightning strike but I did notice the light bulbs in the house seemed to last forever. Perhaps it was stopping all the little spikes that nibble away at things.

[Altavia]

Do we probably also need one for the mini-split?

Thanks!

That would be wise.

Compressors/pumps put transients back on the power line, especially during start up, so at least in theory, a suppressor at the unit reduces these spikes making it back to the rest of the house.

[jrref]

Do we probably also need one for the mini-split?

Thanks!

Most mini-splits already have a surge protector. Look at the power disconnect and see if there is a box with a green light on it. If not, absolutely get one asap as the control circuitry can be damaged by surges.

[pikeselectric]

Good morning! My name is Casandra and I am with Pike's Electric in our service department. We have a lot of Villages residents contact us for Whole Home Surge Protection who also already have the SECO surge unit. Although we cannot speak for SECO's coverage and reliability on their unit, it is suggested to have a whole home surge device also at your garage panel (if your main breaker is located inside). We install the Eaton Ultra type 2 surge device and have been using this product for over 10 years.
We highly recommend this unit and I wanted to provide you, and also other readers information on why surge protection is so important for your home, especially during the inclement weather in the summer months.
Here's a link to our website article: https://pikeselectric.com/protection-from-power-surges/
I'd love to chat with you or anyone else who has interest in this installation. Please call or email me! (352) 748-6251 Email: cnelson@pikeselectric.com
Have a great day! :wave:

[pikeselectric]

Our last house had a surge protector installed in the breaker panel. I don't know if it ever protected us from a big surge like a nearby lightning strike but I did notice the light bulbs in the house seemed to last forever. Perhaps it was stopping all the little spikes that nibble away at things.

Hi Bob! If you are unsure if the installed unit is still protecting your home or active, we may be able to help you. Most times, if the unit is older than 5 years, it can take small spikes over time and become less reliable. Hopefully we can discuss if you are interested. - Casandra with Pike's Electric Email: cnelson@pikeselectric.com

[pikeselectric]

We had lightening hit our Rose Lake DNR field office in Michigan many years ago. Computers on high quality surge protection (Power Directors, I recall - high joule) survived. The Power Directors, of course, were replaced after the incidence. Everything else plugged into an outlet fried or never worked the same. Good surge protection works.

With the amount of lightening here and the sensitivity of computerized appliances, we spent a few hundred to protect our electrical system and appliances in our new home. Unplug things completely if you are gone for a while. We have whole house and individual surge protection.

Hi there! Unplugging items is the BEST way to ensure surge damage does not occur if you are around to do so. We also highly recommend this if leaving home for long periods of time to unplug TVs, computers, chargers, anything that could be a potential hazard to surges/spikes in voltage. I have also seen where keeping a toaster or a air fryer plugged in and not in use has caused fires from a spike in voltage/surge. This is a good rule of thumb and habit to get into. - Casandra from Pike's Electric