Morse Blvd. Traffic study

[tophcfa]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

[ureout]

I travel mainly by golf cart and I avoid traveling on the N end of Morse blvd. .. from trying to get around the round about near 27/441 all the way to 466 is just an accident waitng to happen..

[Laker14]

Three of my favorite golf courses are Tierra, Hacienda, and Mira Mesa, so although I live between the 6s, I travel the stretch fairly often.
It seems to me the safety issues could be addressed in a much more cost effective manor with a couple of changes.
#1. Strictly enforce the speed limit. Very likely this would provide a positive cash flow until cars learn to slow down.
#2. Alter the crossover southbound at the 466 gate. I can think of a few ways this might be accomplished, but a traffic study examining the best possible solutions could arrive at something at a much lower cost than making the entire run a separate MMP.
A tunnel would be expensive, but far more manageable than changing the whole stretch over to a MMP.

[HIgolfers]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

Strongly agree with your first bullet. It’s especially problematic when the Guest gate remains open. I don’t know why the gate guards do this but I see it at other manned gates as well.

[golfing eagles]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

I also agree with the OP. Wherever you drive, either in a car or cart, there are places that pose some difficulty navigating and others that are a breeze. The solution to difficult situations is to be aware of your surroundings, assume the other idiot is out to kill you and above all, possess some driving skills. I’m not a fan of playing to the lowest common denominator, spending millions to accommodate the stupidest, least skilled drivers out there. No different in the classroom where the curriculum is designed around the class idiot at the expense of the majority of students

[deano_hoosier]

From Table 1, page 9 of the study -- I guess I was surprised to see the traffic volume over the 2017-23 period had not grown. I was under the assumption that it surely had. Also found curious the difference volumes between northbound on Morse from 466 and southbound from El Camino Real. Could that be explained by the number of northbound vehicles that head east on Rio Grande from the northbound flow? The biggest problem I have is getting out of the postal station to head north on Morse. You really need luck to make that move - or wait till the evening hours to make the postal station run.


Existing Traffic Patterns
Sumter County collects annual traffic counts along County maintained roadways. The five-year traffic trends along Morse Boulevard show a daily traffic volume of approximately 11,000 vehicles per day south of El Camino Real and
approximately 20,000 vehicles per day north of C 466. The recorded traffic volumes are relatively consistent with no growth between years 2017 and 2020. The recorded traffic volumes in year 2022 showed a decrease in traffic over the prior years. Traffic volumes recorded in 2023 were consistent with the 2017 to 2020 recorded volumes.
The peak travel periods of the day are between 11:00 AM and 3:00 PM. Sumter County recorded golf cart volumes along Morse Boulevard between the years of 2017 and 2020, which showed between 2,000 and 2,200 golf carts per day in addition to the automobile traffic volumes.

Table 1 - Traffic Volumes on Morse Boulevard
Location 2017 Auto Volume 2023 Auto Volume 2020 Golf Cart Volume
South of El Camino Real 12,551 vpd 11,329 vpd n/a
North of C 466 19,506 vpd 16,966 vpd (2022) 2,040 vp

[Laker14]

I also agree with the OP. Wherever you drive, either in a car or cart, there are places that pose some difficulty navigating and others that are a breeze. The solution to difficult situations is to be aware of your surroundings, assume the other idiot is out to kill you and above all, possess some driving skills. I’m not a fan of playing to the lowest common denominator, spending millions to accommodate the stupidest, least skilled drivers out there. No different in the classroom where the curriculum is designed around the class idiot at the expense of the majority of students

I agree with you. However, sometimes traffic patterns are either stupidly and dangerously designed, or, as in the case of the crossover southbound at 466, have become more dangerous than necessary due to changes in volume over time.

So while I agree that we shouldn't over-react in order to try to make it safe for the complete idiot (who always seems to defeat those efforts anyway) there may be some reasonable action to make that area safer.

In the meantime, I'm with you. Go slowly, keep your head on a swivel, and watch out for the idiots.

[Marathon Man]

From Table 1, page 9 of the study -- I guess I was surprised to see the traffic volume over the 2017-23 period had not grown. I was under the assumption that it surely had. ...

It seems that most of those who cry out for a change blame the 'higher traffic volume' and the expansion of The Villages. I commend you for reading the study.

Too many people allow their emotions to block reason, and then become angry at those who use reason to reach a different conclusion.

[tophcfa]

The biggest problem I have is getting out of the postal station to head north on Morse. You really need luck to make that move - or wait till the evening hours to make the postal station run.

That turn is a bitch, especially on weekdays before about 6 PM. I either get the mail at night or pick it up when heading southbound anyways so I am taking a right out of the postal station. The proposed traffic modifications both have crossovers before the postal station and are unclear how one would get to the postal station going in either direction on Morse. I didn’t get into that in my summary because it only affects local residents who use that particular station, but it’s another reason I’m against the proposed modifications.

[tophcfa]

I also agree with the OP. Wherever you drive, either in a car or cart, there are places that pose some difficulty navigating and others that are a breeze. The solution to difficult situations is to be aware of your surroundings, assume the other idiot is out to kill you and above all, possess some driving skills. I’m not a fan of playing to the lowest common denominator, spending millions to accommodate the stupidest, least skilled drivers out there. No different in the classroom where the curriculum is designed around the class idiot at the expense of the majority of students

Totally agree! The Village’s has the absolute worst drivers I have ever seen in my long life, whether it be by automobile, bicycle, or golf cart. And that’s coming from someone whose northern home is Massachusetts, where drivers in the eastern part of the state are referred to as Massholes! I always assume all other drivers are complete idiots and are going to do the absolutely most stupid thing possible. The last thing I want to do is get into an accident and wind up in what is probably the worst Emergency Room in the entire country.

[I'm Popeye!]

Three of my favorite golf courses are Tierra, Hacienda, and Mira Mesa, so although I live between the 6s, I travel the stretch fairly often.
It seems to me the safety issues could be addressed in a much more cost effective manor with a couple of changes.
#1. Strictly enforce the speed limit. Very likely this would provide a positive cash flow until cars learn to slow down.
#2. Alter the crossover southbound at the 466 gate. I can think of a few ways this might be accomplished, but a traffic study examining the best possible solutions could arrive at something at a much lower cost than making the entire run a separate MMP.
A tunnel would be expensive, but far more manageable than changing the whole stretch over to a MMP.

From my experience, slow-driving traffic creates more traffic...
Golf cart speeding over 20 MPH from 441 to 466 has nothing to do with traffic on Morse Blvd...
Maybe fixing the golf cart cross-over at 466 would help...

[shut the front door]

I also agree with the OP. Wherever you drive, either in a car or cart, there are places that pose some difficulty navigating and others that are a breeze. The solution to difficult situations is to be aware of your surroundings, assume the other idiot is out to kill you and above all, possess some driving skills. I’m not a fan of playing to the lowest common denominator, spending millions to accommodate the stupidest, least skilled drivers out there. No different in the classroom where the curriculum is designed around the class idiot at the expense of the majority of students

I totally agree. Every accident that has happened on Morse has been caused by a failure to yield right of way. Golf carts turning in front of cars, cars turning right before checking for a golf cart.... The worst is the people in golf carts who approach the 466 gate and even though there are cars coming, they throw that left hand out to tell everyone else to give them the right away. They are wrong. In some cases, dead wrong. I don't care how much money you throw at traffic design, people are going to do stupid things.

[golfing eagles]

From my experience, slow-driving traffic creates more traffic...
Golf cart speeding over 20 MPH from 441 to 466 has nothing to do with traffic on Morse Blvd...
Maybe fixing the golf cart cross-over at 466 would help...

Absolutely true. Slow drivers cause more accidents than speeders

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I still think The Villages should consider their own Mass Transit system. Villages-specific shuttles, where people who wish to use it can pay as they go, or buy a monthly/quarterly/yearly pass. A dozen shuttle vans or open-air vehicles (sort of like an open trolley, but road-ready - they had these in Century Village in Deerfield Beach). They run continuously, so there's no "scheduled" pickup or departure. You get to a designated area (town squares, larger rec centers, Savannah, etc), and the shuttle makes stops at the medical centers, shopping centers, other town squares, other rec centers, and so on. They go within their own mapped area in a loop, and you can transfer at meeting points to other loops.

Just like the bus does in the burbs near cities, but on a smaller scale and exclusively for people with villages IDs.

The purpose for this would be to reduce traffic overall. Fewer people driving = lower risks for accidents.

[Stu from NYC]

Never understood why Morse is a two land road north of 466 and Buena Vista build as four land road.

[npwalters]

sadly this is was a dead issue when Sumter county refused to share any part of the cost. The basic problem, however, was the poor vision by the developers that put cars and carts on the same major thoroughfare. Fortunately they learned that lesson south of 466,

[villagetinker]

Never understood why Morse is a two land road north of 466 and Buena Vista build as four land road.

Morse blvd (North section) was designed way before all of the expansion of the Villages, and probably worked very well 20 years ago. The current problems are the greatly increased automobile traffic as well as golf cart traffic, and the general lack of common courtesy by ALL parties, compounded by inattentive driving by ALL parties. Just my humble opinion.

[Arctic Fox]

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

Totally agree. We use that section of Morse on a daily basis and have never had an accident but can see that some people would find some bits scary. My experience is that speeding vehicles cause most problems (especially near the gates - totally ignoring the reduced speed limit there) and they come up so fast. There should be more policing of the posted limits, and maybe make the "reduced" limit signs more visible.

My suggestion for the "bottom" of Morse near 466 would be to have the cart path pull off to the right then sharp left to abut Morse, at which point carts would have to give way to traffic coming along Morse before crossing those lanes to the middle.

At the junction with San Marino, going north on Morse and wanting to turn left, if the traffic behind us is just too crazy we turn right on San Marino then do a 180° and wait for the lights to turn green. Takes more time but safer than trying to pull out into fast-moving traffic that refuses to give way to golf carts.

No cheap/easy solution for coming out of the Post Office and turning left, but at least the Morse/San Marino lights should turn red in a reasonable time and give you a temporary break from traffic from the left, at least.

Little point in spending $millions which no-one is happy to pay and end up with something that is overly complicated.

[tophcfa]

At the junction with San Marino, going north on Morse and wanting to turn left, if the traffic behind us is just too crazy we turn right on San Marino then do a 180° and wait for the lights to turn green. Takes more time but safer than trying to pull out into fast-moving traffic that refuses to give way to golf carts.

LOL, I do the same thing at that light, except it’s going left onto San Marino when traveling south on Morse. That dam light takes a full minute and a half between cycles to cross Morse. At least at night the light has a headlight sensor and quickly changes green if there is no traffic on Morse.

[dhdallas]

If you want to improve safety then just spend a few days breathalyzing every golf cart driver. The police will probably need several large transport vans per day for all the drunken cart drivers. Of course they just let them out on bail to re-offend but it's a start. If the cart drivers would stay just sober, pay attention, and have a little patience there would be very few crashes.

[Laker14]

From my experience, slow-driving traffic creates more traffic...
Golf cart speeding over 20 MPH from 441 to 466 has nothing to do with traffic on Morse Blvd...
Maybe fixing the golf cart cross-over at 466 would help...

Absolutely true. Slow drivers cause more accidents than speeders

I think we are talking about different things. I was talking about enforcing the 30mph speed limit for cars. I agree that a golf cart going a few miles over the 20mph limit does not increase the danger appreciably.

I agree that drivers going less than the speed limit, or not moving with the traffic flow in the faster, left lanes of an interstate are a hazard.

However, with the golf carts on the stretch of road we are talking about, and the need due to the design of the road, for carts to cross from the cart lane to make left turns, and the overall congestion of the road during busy times (which is just about always during the peak months), enforcing the posted speed limits would make it safer and help alleviate some of the concerns that the proposed MMP would address. And it would do it a far lesser cost than either of the proposals on the table right now.

[CSB1228]

Gate keepers CANNOT let traffic back up to 466. It would help if they occasionally looked and held the entering cars for at least a minute.

[mtomlinson]

One simple solution to the Morse/CR466 golf cart crossing at busy times would be to let one Guest pass through for every two Residents. This would cause a gap every three cars that would be enough to let a golf cart cross. Cost = ZERO. The gate operators currently have no responsibility for golf cart traffic and are not even aware that there is a line desperately trying to cross. You'll never fix stupid but that should fix the main problem on that stretch of road.

[Hpy2BHere]

Doesn't anyone think adding speed bumps to Morse would help slow the traffic down?

[npwalters]

If you want to improve safety then just spend a few days breathalyzing every golf cart driver. The police will probably need several large transport vans per day for all the drunken cart drivers. Of course they just let them out on bail to re-offend but it's a start. If the cart drivers would stay just sober, pay attention, and have a little patience there would be very few crashes.

I can promise you that the lady - a friend of mine - that died in a golf cart accident on Morse recently was not drunk or drinking.

[cjrjck]

That stretch of a road is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps the most dangerous in TV. Being so close to 466, the gate personnel try to keep northbound traffic flowing through the two lanes to prevent it backing up to 466. They are most concerned, understandably, with timing the left lane (manual gate) with the resident right lane gate to keep traffic moving. The two northbound lanes then merge into one lane right at the golf cart crossover. So northbound traffic is most focused on ensuring a smooth merge. I've sat there trying to cross the northbound lane in a golf cart during peak traffic and it can get very testy. Dangerously testy. I have seen some very close calls there. It would never be designed that way today unless you were sadistic and enjoyed watching the chaos. Leaving it the way it is not morally viable. Short of building a tunnel, I can't see an alternative other than moving the crossover further north and creating a way to control traffic flow allowing a safe crossing.

[Bill14564]

That stretch of a road is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps the most dangerous in TV. Being so close to 466, the gate personnel try to keep northbound traffic flowing through the two lanes to prevent it backing up to 466. They are most concerned, understandably, with timing the left lane (manual gate) with the resident right lane gate to keep traffic moving. The two northbound lanes then merge into one lane right at the golf cart crossover. So northbound traffic is most focused on ensuring a smooth merge. I've sat there trying to cross the northbound lane in a golf cart during peak traffic and it can get very testy. Dangerously testy. I have seen some very close calls there. It would never be designed that way today unless you were sadistic and enjoyed watching the chaos. Leaving it the way it is not morally viable. Short of building a tunnel, I can't see an alternative other than moving the crossover further north and creating a way to control traffic flow allowing a safe crossing.

Perhaps the gate attendants should be more concerned about a safe flow of traffic north of the gate and not worry about traffic backing up. There is a light and turn lanes on 466 to hold the additional traffic safely south of the gate. North of the gate there is a merge and a crossing making it less safe.

Bonus to letting traffic back up to 466: A backup on 466 will generate more complaints to Sumter County to find ways to fix the problem. We may not like whatever fix they come up with, but maybe something is better than the nothing that is happening now.

[ROCKETMAN]

I agree with everything you wrote. Way to expensive to make a separate path. Just wished they would have built a tunnel at the crossover closer to 466. Maybe that’s one thing they could do.

[brakmarh]

I haven’t read the report, but I think the existing system would work a bit better if traffic was “metered“ more rigorously. The gates and the person controlling entering traffic should always look towards the Golf Carts to see if someone is waiting. Perhaps the gates could be replaced with an alternating traffic signal as they do at some locations entering a freeway.

[PVR]

The other answers is for golf carts to WAIT to cross over until no cars are coming and safely go to the middle safe area and continue when that side is clear.
Instead of putting your hand out signaling that you are coming over without waiting for an opening in traffic. WAIT not everyone is watching for your hand and may not stop for you. Golf carts do NOT have the right of way.

[wfp113]

The speed limit on Morse Blvd north of 466 is 30 mph and has a golf cart lane. Seldom do you ever see any vehicle going below 35-45 mph and if law enforcement would happen to pull the vehicle over they usually only warn them. The Sumter Co. Sherrifis deputies need to patrol the area and enforce the speed limit.

wfp113

[lpkruege1]

I agree with you. However, sometimes traffic patterns are either stupidly and dangerously designed, or, as in the case of the crossover southbound at 466, have become more dangerous than necessary due to changes in volume over time.

So while I agree that we shouldn't over-react in order to try to make it safe for the complete idiot (who always seems to defeat those efforts anyway) there may be some reasonable action to make that area safer.

In the meantime, I'm with you. Go slowly, keep your head on a swivel, and watch out for the idiots.

I travel Morse probably twice a week. Last winter I had a car decide to pass on golf cart lane. A different time someone tried to beat the oncoming car traffic and pulled out in front of my golf cart. Both times I had to slam on the breaks. I'm certain one was a resident of one of the villages, but both were definitely idiots. Is someone else's life really that much important than these idiots. I agree with you 100% you need to assume they won't stop, and they're idiots.

[jmsturm]

I was born and raised in NYC. I drove the streets of NYC, first by bicycle and then by car. In comparison Morse Blvd is very safe. When I drive a vehicle, no matter what type, my philosophy is to always be courteous and drive AWARE. I am constantly checking my mirrors to see who is around me and who is approaching. With that info make smart decisions for you and those around you. When in doubt YIELD! Be careful and drive safely. I am retired and not in a rush. I do not live in CDD 1 so I have no horse in this race other than inconvenience.

[I'm Popeye!]

The speed limit on Morse Blvd north of 466 is 30 mph and has a golf cart lane. Seldom do you ever see any vehicle going below 35-45 mph and if law enforcement would happen to pull the vehicle over they usually only warn them. The Sumter Co. Sherrifis deputies need to patrol the area and enforce the speed limit.

wfp113

Why? Would you rather see them going 15 MPH....
I'm on that road most of the time, but I will not exaggerate by saying vehicles going 45 MPH on it...

[tophcfa]

One simple solution to the Morse/CR466 golf cart crossing at busy times would be to let one Guest pass through for every two Residents. This would cause a gap every three cars that would be enough to let a golf cart cross. Cost = ZERO. The gate operators currently have no responsibility for golf cart traffic and are not even aware that there is a line desperately trying to cross. You'll never fix stupid but that should fix the main problem on that stretch of road.

Strongly agree that something needs to be done to stagger the automobile traffic flow which will create openings for golf carts to crossover. Currently, just about every gate operator is totally oblivious to the back up of golf carts behind them and just lets cars through the gates as fast as possible. Often, the gate operator keeps both gates open and just flips their stop sigh back and forth to alternate cars going through the gates so fast there is no way for a cart to crossover. If the gates were required to always be manually operated, with a forced delay between openings, the sequence could easily be calibrated to create the necessary opportunities for carts to crossover.

On another note, when I go through that gate in a car, which isn’t often, I always stop in front of the crossover and let several golf carts through. The smiles, waves, and thank you gestures I receive from cart drivers makes me so happy i can easily ignore the a holes behind me in cars beeping at me : )

[pauld315]

From Table 1, page 9 of the study -- I guess I was surprised to see the traffic volume over the 2017-23 period had not grown. I was under the assumption that it surely had. Also found curious the difference volumes between northbound on Morse from 466 and southbound from El Camino Real. Could that be explained by the number of northbound vehicles that head east on Rio Grande from the northbound flow? The biggest problem I have is getting out of the postal station to head north on Morse. You really need luck to make that move - or wait till the evening hours to make the postal station run.


Existing Traffic Patterns
Sumter County collects annual traffic counts along County maintained roadways. The five-year traffic trends along Morse Boulevard show a daily traffic volume of approximately 11,000 vehicles per day south of El Camino Real and
approximately 20,000 vehicles per day north of C 466. The recorded traffic volumes are relatively consistent with no growth between years 2017 and 2020. The recorded traffic volumes in year 2022 showed a decrease in traffic over the prior years. Traffic volumes recorded in 2023 were consistent with the 2017 to 2020 recorded volumes.
The peak travel periods of the day are between 11:00 AM and 3:00 PM. Sumter County recorded golf cart volumes along Morse Boulevard between the years of 2017 and 2020, which showed between 2,000 and 2,200 golf carts per day in addition to the automobile traffic volumes.

Table 1 - Traffic Volumes on Morse Boulevard
Location 2017 Auto Volume 2023 Auto Volume 2020 Golf Cart Volume
South of El Camino Real 12,551 vpd 11,329 vpd n/a
North of C 466 19,506 vpd 16,966 vpd (2022) 2,040 vp

The reason for that in terms of auto traffic is because the entrance at 466 is and has been at capacity so the numbers will never rise significantly. You can only funnel so many cars per hour through there

[pauld315]

I was born and raised in NYC. I drove the streets of NYC, first by bicycle and then by car. In comparison Morse Blvd is very safe. When I drive a vehicle, no matter what type, my philosophy is to always be courteous and drive AWARE. I am constantly checking my mirrors to see who is around me and who is approaching. With that info make smart decisions for you and those around you. When in doubt YIELD! Be careful and drive safely. I am retired and not in a rush. I do not live in CDD 1 so I have no horse in this race other than inconvenience.

This is the country, not NYC

[G.R.I.T.S.]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

I had the similar thoughts. Move the crossover farther north from the gate at cr 466. Enable ways to enforce the speed limit in high-volume areas, like rumble strips, annoying but effective.

[biker59]

Do you have a link to the report?

[jmaccallum]

Morse blvd (North section) was designed way before all of the expansion of the Villages, and probably worked very well 20 years ago. The current problems are the greatly increased automobile traffic as well as golf cart traffic, and the general lack of common courtesy by ALL parties, compounded by inattentive driving by ALL parties. Just my humble opinion.

There hasn’t been any traffic increase over the years as shown in the study. In fact there was a decrease in one year. Sheesh! Read the report! Let go of the false traffic increase narrative.

[tophcfa]

Do you have a link to the report?

There is a link in an article on the online news website that TOTV won’t allow posting a link to. The website URL starts with Villages, has a dash in between, then ends with news.

[tophcfa]

There hasn’t been any traffic increase over the years as shown in the study. In fact there was a decrease in one year. Sheesh! Read the report! Let go of the false traffic increase narrative.

It’s a built out mature area so presumably traffic levels should be constant. Oh wait, they are building Villas where the Hacienda Hills clubhouse used to be and apartments in Spanish Springs. Never mind !

[HandyGrandpap]

Do you have a link to the report?

This link should work, the report starts on page 34 or so. If it does not work, at least we tried, thank you

District 1 Agenda Packet.pdf - Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hCtkUGsNDSakyoPpmus8Md6KyXC2Bc32/view)

There was an meeting last friday and another one Aug 30. Folks were asked to wear red shirts.
Wednesday, August 30, 6pm to 8pm, La Hacienda, Town Hall on the Morse Blvd engineering report.

Cut and past from the meeting notice:
"Wear your red shirt. Contact Jim Vaccaro by cell (585-755-3151) or email (jvacc1949@gmail.com) with questions".

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Why? Would you rather see them going 15 MPH....
I'm on that road most of the time, but I will not exaggerate by saying vehicles going 45 MPH on it...

It's not an exaggeration at all. I know at least one person who sometimes hits 45mph - and that person would be me. I also know there are people who go faster than 45mph - and that would be whoever passes me, while I'm going 45.

Doesn't happen often and usually it's at the point where the road splits into another lane in each direction, but it does happen

[Marathon Man]

There hasn’t been any traffic increase over the years as shown in the study. In fact there was a decrease in one year. Sheesh! Read the report! Let go of the false traffic increase narrative.

I don't have anything to say. Just wanted to create a second chance for people to see your comment. No traffic increase folks.

[HandyGrandpap]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

Your post is great, a comment to all of us in Sumter County. This is a County road, do we have any factual basis to confirm CDD1 will pay, as oppossed to County residents?

[randykw]

#11 in line
Mar. 1, 2022, 1430 hrs

[shut the front door]

Why? Would you rather see them going 15 MPH....
I'm on that road most of the time, but I will not exaggerate by saying vehicles going 45 MPH on it...

Bingo. Unless it's the middle of the night or 7 am on Sunday, that road is way too congested for people to go 45 mph. During snowbird season, forget it.

[Jerseybob]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.


Thank you for the review and spot on, objective comments. I also have reviewed this study and agree the engineering firm did what they were contracted to do.
Your recommendations are true to form, design and allow for a potential working relationship on all levels in identification for a potentially safer and affordable solution.

[Jerseybob]

From Table 1, page 9 of the study -- I guess I was surprised to see the traffic volume over the 2017-23 period had not grown. I was under the assumption that it surely had. Also found curious the difference volumes between northbound on Morse from 466 and southbound from El Camino Real. Could that be explained by the number of northbound vehicles that head east on Rio Grande from the northbound flow? The biggest problem I have is getting out of the postal station to head north on Morse. You really need luck to make that move - or wait till the evening hours to make the postal station run.


Existing Traffic Patterns
Sumter County collects annual traffic counts along County maintained roadways. The five-year traffic trends along Morse Boulevard show a daily traffic volume of approximately 11,000 vehicles per day south of El Camino Real and
approximately 20,000 vehicles per day north of C 466. The recorded traffic volumes are relatively consistent with no growth between years 2017 and 2020. The recorded traffic volumes in year 2022 showed a decrease in traffic over the prior years. Traffic volumes recorded in 2023 were consistent with the 2017 to 2020 recorded volumes.
The peak travel periods of the day are between 11:00 AM and 3:00 PM. Sumter County recorded golf cart volumes along Morse Boulevard between the years of 2017 and 2020, which showed between 2,000 and 2,200 golf carts per day in addition to the automobile traffic volumes.

Table 1 - Traffic Volumes on Morse Boulevard
Location 2017 Auto Volume 2023 Auto Volume 2020 Golf Cart Volume
South of El Camino Real 12,551 vpd 11,329 vpd n/a
North of C 466 19,506 vpd 16,966 vpd (2022) 2,040 vp

I opine the drop in traffic count could be due to the Covid-19 timeline. Another resource for "gate count" may be identifiable to determine the accuracy of the data collection used in this study, the old "tube" method.
Sadly, in this CDD-1 funded study, the tubes were not monitored frequently enough to determine displacement or proper alignment on the roadways.
That said, it is the final work product that we paid for. With that information, a +/- % would allow for a more accurate number to work with as the study is reviewed by all.

[villagetinker]

There hasn’t been any traffic increase over the years as shown in the study. In fact there was a decrease in one year. Sheesh! Read the report! Let go of the false traffic increase narrative.

I did not look at the years the study covered, but I thought it was well less than 10 years, may comment was for 20 years ago, so yes I agree there has not been a significant increase in the last several years, but the problems have existing for all of those years. This section of road was designed for a much lower amount of traffic (both cars and golf carts) and as the villages has grown, it is now overloaded.

[Laker14]

Why? Would you rather see them going 15 MPH....
I'm on that road most of the time, but I will not exaggerate by saying vehicles going 45 MPH on it...

Can you explain how enforcing a 30 mph speed limit will cause cars to go 15mph?

[kkingston57]

sadly this is was a dead issue when Sumter county refused to share any part of the cost. The basic problem, however, was the poor vision by the developers that put cars and carts on the same major thoroughfare. Fortunately they learned that lesson south of 466,

Live in this area. Could not imagine complaints if this was paid for by Sumter County when this "problem" only affects golf carts in this section of Morse.

[kkingston57]

The speed limit on Morse Blvd north of 466 is 30 mph and has a golf cart lane. Seldom do you ever see any vehicle going below 35-45 mph and if law enforcement would happen to pull the vehicle over they usually only warn them. The Sumter Co. Sherrifis deputies need to patrol the area and enforce the speed limit.

wfp113

On this road 2-3 times a week and most people do go near the speed limit. Speed does not cause accidents but does exacerbate the impact.

[I'm Popeye!]

There hasn’t been any traffic increase over the years as shown in the study. In fact there was a decrease in one year. Sheesh! Read the report! Let go of the false traffic increase narrative.

:confused: When was the last time you have been to the Villages... :1rotfl:

[I'm Popeye!]

Can you explain how enforcing a 30 mph speed limit will cause cars to go 15mph?

Well, I'll tell YOU...
To enforce a 30 mph zone, you need a law-enforcing officer to watch out. Do we agree?
Most drivers seeing a law-enforcing officer up ahead will slow down even if they are going 30 mph. Cars in the same lane will start to slow down behind each other until, eventually, the one in the back is going a lot less than 30 MPH.... :ho:

[Papa_lecki]

Make Morse Blvd one way north - expand the buffer for the golf carts.

Find another route south.

[tophcfa]

Make Morse Blvd one way north - expand the buffer for the golf carts.

Find another route south.

??????, where are you going to magically find another southbound route? Perhaps you should suggest that to Kimberly Horn, the Engineering firm that produced the traffic study. Let them know they totally screwed up the study by not identifying a non-existing route and proposing your fairy tale idea.

[Laker14]

Well, I'll tell YOU...
To enforce a 30 mph zone, you need a law-enforcing officer to watch out. Do we agree?
Most drivers seeing a law-enforcing officer up ahead will slow down even if they are going 30 mph. Cars in the same lane will start to slow down behind each other until, eventually, the one in the back is going a lot less than 30 MPH.... :ho:

Excellent explanation. Ergo, no speed limits should ever be enforced.

Is that your position?

[Marathon Man]

Make Morse Blvd one way north - expand the buffer for the golf carts.

Find another route south.

So, basically, you offer half a plan.

[BobnBev]

How about Jersey barriers separating the golf cart lane from the car lane.

[Laker14]

How about Jersey barriers separating the golf cart lane from the car lane.

aside from being ugly as sin, you'd have to widen the road considerably to accommodate them, and you still have the issues of getting from the cart lane to the car lane for left turns.

It would be impossible to pass slow moving carts or bicycles. Did I mention it would be ugly as sin?

Also I don't see how it addresses the issue of crossing at the 466 gate, southbound.

[Rodneysblue]

If you want to improve safety then just spend a few days breathalyzing every golf cart driver. The police will probably need several large transport vans per day for all the drunken cart drivers. Of course they just let them out on bail to re-offend but it's a start. If the cart drivers would stay just sober, pay attention, and have a little patience there would be very few crashes.

Could do the same for all the drivers, there are many more cars than carts.

[Papa_lecki]

A good traffic calming idea - make Morse and Buena Vista a toll road for cars, the entire way.

[tophcfa]

A good traffic calming idea - make Morse and Buena Vista a toll road for cars, the entire way.

The cars gotta go somewhere, that would divert traffic into the residential neighborhoods. I’m sure that would make lot of people happy? And don’t forget, the landscapers, delivery trucks, and contractors would simply pass along those costs to the Villager’s.

[golfing eagles]

On this road 2-3 times a week and most people do go near the speed limit. Speed does not cause accidents but does exacerbate the impact.

Also, at the crossing point, northbound traffic is just accelerating from their stop at the gate, southbound traffic is slowing for the gate. Very few, if any, are "speeding" at that point. While it is a more difficult merge and turn than average, I've never had a problem, even in heavy traffic, and anyone with even average driving skills should not have a problem either. Save the $15 million.

Also, I'll continue to maintain that all those that post complaints about "speeding" are those with the weakest driving skills that you never want to get behind on a 2 lane road.

[Topspinmo]

The other answers is for golf carts to WAIT to cross over until no cars are coming and safely go to the middle safe area and continue when that side is clear.
Instead of putting your hand out signaling that you are coming over without waiting for an opening in traffic. WAIT not everyone is watching for your hand and may not stop for you. Golf carts do NOT have the right of way.


If golf cart ahead and their space it’s legal merge. Speed up or tailgating not letting traffic merge IS accident waiting to happen. Most accidents are from merging vehicles not looking before the merge right off front bumper of car behind them not giving that driver time to react. They should be merging long before the left turn if traffic heavy. But that cause road rage cause of inpatient mentally unstable people.

Same thing when vehicles making right turn when there diamond lane. they have to safely merge Not speed up can cutoff vehicles in diamond lane. Some have even turned right into golf cart in diamond lane. So it two way street both having right of ways.

[Papa_lecki]

The cars gotta go somewhere, that would divert traffic into the residential neighborhoods. I’m sure that would make lot of people happy? And don’t forget, the landscapers, delivery trucks, and contractors would simply pass along those costs to the Villager’s.

Well yes, but imagine what the CDD can do with that toll money. The executive courses will be nicer than Augusta.

We residents will get the toll money back in higher property values.

[tophcfa]

Well yes, but imagine what the CDD can do with that toll money. The executive courses will be nicer than Augusta.

Need to pay attention, the CDD’s don’t own the roads, the county does.

[Marathon Man]

Well yes, but imagine what the CDD can do with that toll money. The executive courses will be nicer than Augusta.

We residents will get the toll money back in higher property values.

Why would the CDD get the money from a toll on a county road?

[I'm Popeye!]

Excellent explanation. Ergo, no speed limits should ever be enforced.

Is that your position?

Wasn't the question from you, on 'how do you go from 45 MPH down to 15 MPH'.
I explained, but now you are twisting my words saying I said, "No law enforcement needed"..
I'm done with you! :wave:

[villagetinker]

I would have liked to see a detailed listing of all of the accidents along this section of road and the CAUSE of the accidents. Then I would suggest that we pursue actions that would limit these types of accidents. The report was actually quite good, but it was directed at getting the golf carts and cars separated from each other NOT at reducing accidents, the assumption is that by separating the cars and golf carts this will reduce the accidents.
I am thinking that if we actually knew the leading cause of the accidents, and if there were specific areas that were more accident prone, we could work on those areas at a much lower cost than what the report had.
Basically what I am saying is spend the money specifically where the accidents are occurring.

[golfing eagles]

I would have liked to see a detailed listing of all of the accidents along this section of road and the CAUSE of the accidents. Then I would suggest that we pursue actions that would limit these types of accidents. The report was actually quite good, but it was directed at getting the golf carts and cars separated from each other NOT at reducing accidents, the assumption is that by separating the cars and golf carts this will reduce the accidents.
I am thinking that if we actually knew the leading cause of the accidents, and if there were specific areas that were more accident prone, we could work on those areas at a much lower cost than what the report had.
Basically what I am saying is spend the money specifically where the accidents are occurring.

I'm pretty sure we both know what such a report would show as the cause of accidents:

1) Cart drivers (distracted, impaired, lousy drivers or other) that merge right in front of a car that cannot stop in time

2) Car drivers (distracted, impaired, lousy drivers or other) that speed up to try to prevent a cart from merging

Both of these types of behaviors stem from the growing societal attitude of "Me first and to heck with you".

Separation would solve the problem, if the car is in Maine and the cart in Hawaii, but doesn't look like a feasibility at 466 and Morse unless millions are spent on a total redesign including a tunnel.

[toeser]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

I think just adding one foot to the shoulder on each side of Morse would make it far safer and cost way less than what has been proposed.

[npwalters]

In the for whatever it's worth category. I was surprised to read that the golf cart lanes are 7 feet wide. My measurement with my uncalibrated tape measure was 5' 5" on average. That is on the portion that is immediately adjacent to Morse (about half of it).

[kkingston57]

A good traffic calming idea - make Morse and Buena Vista a toll road for cars, the entire way.

Just like the toll road in the Mel Brooks movie Blazing Saddles.

[kkingston57]

Need to pay attention, the CDD’s don’t own the roads, the county does.

And the idea of tolls was probably sarcasm.

[HandyGrandpap]

Fact: The county owns the road
Most likely outcome for paying for the renovations: As is standard with other similiar projects the county will issue a muni bond to be amoritized over XX? number of years. This is standard protocol and is what will happen if approved. The selling point is that nobody in the county will take a big one time hit.

[ronda]

As a resident of CDD1 who frequently travels Morse Blvd (especially between the intersections with San Marino and 466) I have a strong interest in this issue. I just finished an exhaustive review of the Kimberly Horn Report outlining the situation as well as the two proposed modifications to the current traffic system. My conclusions are as follows, from the prospective of a golf cart driver:

- Unlike many others, I don’t find the current system to be that bad. The only part of the existing system I really dislike is the crossover for south bound cart traffic just north of the gate leading to 466.
- The benefits of the two proposed traffic modifications (separating golf carts from automobile traffic and bicycle traffic (under one alternative), and eliminating the crossover north of the 466 gate), are far outweighed by the disadvantages (multiple stops created at road crossings as well as a nightmarish crossover of Morse south of San Marino and north of the Postal Station).
- The work required for either alternative will be very disruptive for an extended period of time and significantly change the character of the existing mature area.
- The modifications required under either alternative would be very disruptive to many unfortunate abutters to the involved areas (it wouldn’t affect me).
-Sumter County wants nothing to do with the project, making permitting and cost sharing a very difficult task.
- Both of the proposed traffic modifications are expensive and it appears the cost burden would be solely that of the 3,400 CDD1 residents at a cost of roughly $4,500 per residency. And that’s before the typical cost overruns.

Based on these observations/conclusions, I say leave things the way they currently are, or significantly downsize the project and try to find a way to improve the crossover for southbound traffic just north of the 466 gate.

That’s one persons opinion, I’m sure others will be different.

Just wondering how the $4,500 would be collected? Added to your amenities fee and recovered over several years? other? I haven't heard of "assessment Fees" in TV, like they do in condo associations.

[Papa_lecki]

Just wondering how the $4,500 would be collected? Added to your amenities fee and recovered over several years? other? I haven't heard of "assessment Fees" in TV, like they do in condo associations.

The CDD will finance the project with bonds, the annual bond repayment will go into the CDD budget, and that will result in higher CDD budget. Getting passed to the residents.

[dougawhite]

On another note, when I go through that gate in a car, which isn’t often, I always stop in front of the crossover and let several golf carts through. The smiles, waves, and thank you gestures I receive from cart drivers makes me so happy i can easily ignore the a holes behind me in cars beeping at me : )

Stupid practice for a car to give up its right-of-way to a golf cart. Nobody expects that and it messes up everyone around you not knowing what you're up to. In fact, it's illegal for a car to stop in the middle of the road like that!

[dougawhite]

??????, where are you going to magically find another southbound route? Perhaps you should suggest that to Kimberly Horn, the Engineering firm that produced the traffic study. Let them know they totally screwed up the study by not identifying a non-existing route and proposing your fairy tale idea.

Make Rolling Acres the other One-Way road going southbound. This would solve the problems on both roadways!

[dougawhite]

Make Morse Blvd one way north - expand the buffer for the golf carts.

Find another route south.

Make Rolling Acres the other One-Way road going southbound. This would solve the problems on both roadways!

[dougawhite]

So, basically, you offer half a plan.

Make Rolling Acres the other One-Way road going southbound. This would solve the problems on both roadways!

[patfla06]

When I drive up north I avoid using Morse Blvd.
Having golf carts right next to me for that length of roadway just
doesn’t feel safe to me.

[Papa_lecki]

And the idea of tolls was probably sarcasm.

Has anybody got a dime?
I don’t got a dime
I got nothing.

[jmaccallum]

It’s a built out mature area so presumably traffic levels should be constant. Oh wait, they are building Villas where the Hacienda Hills clubhouse used to be and apartments in Spanish Springs. Never mind !

Four (4) apartments? 26-29 Villas at Hacienda? So, 33 more cars/golf carts at most. Hmmmm…

[jmaccallum]

:confused: When was the last time you have been to the Villages... :1rotfl:

Today. :1rotfl:

[I'm Popeye!]

Make Rolling Acres the other One-Way road going southbound. This would solve the problems on both roadways!

Have you seen the Traffic on Rolling Acres, especially around school time (2:30 - 3:30 PM) or people getting off work (4-6 PM)? Probably not!

[I'm Popeye!]

Four (4) apartments? 26-29 Villas at Hacienda? So, 33 more cars/golf carts at most. Hmmmm…

Really?
This picture below was posted by someone earlier...
Only 11 carts at the moment; imagine another 22 more, according to your calculations!
. . . . . . . 33 more cars/golf carts at most. Hmmmm...

[tophcfa]

Have you seen the Traffic on Rolling Acres, especially around school time (2:30 - 3:30 PM) or people getting off work (4-6 PM)? Probably not!

Definitely not, can you imagine putting golf carts on that road?

[Two Bills]

Really?
This picture below was posted by someone earlier...
Only 11 carts at the moment; imagine another 22 more, according to your calculations!
. . . . . . . 33 more cars/golf carts at most. Hmmmm...

If the gate person had a modicum of sense/initiative, stopping the inbound vehicles for 30 seconds would see that lot away.

[golfing eagles]

Really?
This picture below was posted by someone earlier...
Only 11 carts at the moment; imagine another 22 more, according to your calculations!
. . . . . . . 33 more cars/golf carts at most. Hmmmm...

Because all 22 of the extras will be at that place at that time? Unless they are organizing a parade, it's highly doubtful.

[JMintzer]

Really?
This picture below was posted by someone earlier...
Only 11 carts at the moment; imagine another 22 more, according to your calculations!
. . . . . . . 33 more cars/golf carts at most. Hmmmm...

/// Golfing Eagles beat me to it...

[golfing eagles]

/// Golfing Eagles beat me to it...

You snooze, you lose:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Patzy]

"I do not support ANY efforts to create a multi-model option on Morse Blvd. Because I believe the group focused on the wrong alternative based on what was stated as a Safety Issue and the solution was supposed to improve road safety for golf cars. Yes, there are bicycles, but the major issue is golf car safety, as is stated by the folks supporting the Multi-model project.

I submit that if the problem is Morse isn't safe for golf cars and bicycles, the root cause is speed. Everyone speeds on Morse. The Villages/Sumter County has correctly identified the top speed for this road at 30 mph and golf cars should only be doing 20.

If EVERYONE drove the speed limit two things happen which lead to a safer road for everyone. First, at a slower speed, EVERYONE has more reaction time which is critical in road safety and it's the biggest way that risk and safety are balanced. An example is construction areas. It's exactly why speed is reduced. The second unintended consequence benefit is that if there were reduced speeds the commercial traffic would choose a different route. Both of these lead to less traffic, traveling much slower, and increased reaction time; which equals greater safety and fewer accidents.

So, you say, well "no Kidding", Of course, we want everyone to drive the speed limit, but they don't.

In my opinion, before our CDD1 money was spent to seek a solution that is trying to solve an amenity issue (multi-model path); the first alternative should have been to lobby the Sheriff to install automatic ticketing at two locations on Morse.

Here's another area where I disagree with the path CDD 1 is pursuing. This is clearly a Sumter Country Sheriffs' office responsibility. The rumor is that they know this, but don't have the resources to have cars managing the speed. And if so, I understand this. Statistically, according to multiple traffic studies, while Morse is dangerous in some perspectives, it isn't as dangerous as other Sumter County roads which thus warrants the additional law enforcement oversight.

And here's the beauty of this shift of responsibility to the Sumter County Sheriff, Florida allows automatic ticketing for speeding. This year, Gov. Ron DeSantis, approved HB 657, the governor makes speed cameras legal in Florida. Initially for school zones; however, I believe that our unique residential multi-use road is a perfect situation to request the use here.

I would rather we would have spent the money to seek this solution. Which then places the installation and residual maintenance on Sumter County, where it should be.

I have just started to speak out about this. I hope that CDD1 residents are not emotionally captured by the narrative that we need a multi-model path.

It wasn't here to begin with and there are enough other locations in the Villages that have this.

[golfing eagles]

"I do not support ANY efforts to create a multi-model option on Morse Blvd. Because I believe the group focused on the wrong alternative based on what was stated as a Safety Issue and the solution was supposed to improve road safety for golf cars. Yes, there are bicycles, but the major issue is golf car safety, as is stated by the folks supporting the Multi-model project.

I submit that if the problem is Morse isn't safe for golf cars and bicycles, the root cause is speed. Everyone speeds on Morse. The Villages/Sumter County has correctly identified the top speed for this road at 30 mph and golf cars should only be doing 20.

If EVERYONE drove the speed limit two things happen which lead to a safer road for everyone. First, at a slower speed, EVERYONE has more reaction time which is critical in road safety and it's the biggest way that risk and safety are balanced. An example is construction areas. It's exactly why speed is reduced. The second unintended consequence benefit is that if there were reduced speeds the commercial traffic would choose a different route. Both of these lead to less traffic, traveling much slower, and increased reaction time; which equals greater safety and fewer accidents.

So, you say, well "no Kidding", Of course, we want everyone to drive the speed limit, but they don't.

In my opinion, before our CDD1 money was spent to seek a solution that is trying to solve an amenity issue (multi-model path); the first alternative should have been to lobby the Sheriff to install automatic ticketing at two locations on Morse.

Here's another area where I disagree with the path CDD 1 is pursuing. This is clearly a Sumter Country Sheriffs' office responsibility. The rumor is that they know this, but don't have the resources to have cars managing the speed. And if so, I understand this. Statistically, according to multiple traffic studies, while Morse is dangerous in some perspectives, it isn't as dangerous as other Sumter County roads which thus warrants the additional law enforcement oversight.

And here's the beauty of this shift of responsibility to the Sumter County Sheriff, Florida allows automatic ticketing for speeding. This year, Gov. Ron DeSantis, approved HB 657, the governor makes speed cameras legal in Florida. Initially for school zones; however, I believe that our unique residential multi-use road is a perfect situation to request the use here.

I would rather we would have spent the money to seek this solution. Which then places the installation and residual maintenance on Sumter County, where it should be.

I have just started to speak out about this. I hope that CDD1 residents are not emotionally captured by the narrative that we need a multi-model path.

It wasn't here to begin with and there are enough other locations in the Villages that have this.

Nice post, unfortunately it loses most of its meaning once you realize that statistically slow drivers cause more accidents than speeders

[Laker14]

Nice post, unfortunately it loses most of its meaning once you realize that statistically slow drivers cause more accidents than speeders

uh huh...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The problem (to Patzy) with police pulling over speeders: they'd be pulling them over to the exact spot where golf carts can (barely) legally drive. They're not (legally) allowed to drive on Morse, except in the designated lined area in each direction between just past the gate at 466 to just before the roundabout at Paige Place.

If a police car has a car pulled over onto the side of the road, they'll both be blocking golf cart traffic. That forces golf carts (and bicyclers and pedestrians, who are also allowed on that mini-lane) to merge into the 30mph road. It's not a big deal if they're expecting to do that when they're turning left onto a side street or onto the MMP near the gate. It's another matter entirely when it's sudden, when there's already a lot of traffic on the road.

[golfing eagles]

uh huh...

Uh huh. Perhaps you missed the half dozen or so links to law enforcement and insurance sites that I posted on other threads showing EXACTLY what I posted. I have no intention of repeating them, but you can do a search if you want to educate yourself. Perhaps you should modify your response to “denying it over and over doesn’t make it true”

[Laker14]

Uh huh. Perhaps you missed the half dozen or so links to law enforcement and insurance sites that I posted on other threads showing EXACTLY what I posted. I have no intention of repeating them, but you can do a search if you want to educate yourself. Perhaps you should modify your response to “denying it over and over doesn’t make it true”

I've read many of those links and what you fail to mention in your repeated references to the issue is that they are referring to drivers who drive " 10mph below the average speed" being 6 times more likely to be involved in an accident.
This being especially a problem on multi-lane roads with the slow driver in the left lane.
What they don't mention is the degree of severity of the accidents and how the severity relates to the speed of the vehicle. They do mention that a significant number of the accidents that are "caused" by slow drivers are the result of impatience on the part of drivers stuck behind slow drivers.

Also, they discuss that slow drivers are often poor drivers, and distracted drivers. Those most likely to drive excessively slowly are older drivers who don't see well, feel intimidated by driving fast, and brand new drivers who aren't yet comfortable in fast traffic.
As dangerous as they are, we really don't want them driving faster.

What your incessant claim that slow drivers are more dangerous than speeders doesn't acknowledge (EVER) is that it is not the overall speed of the driver that makes them dangerous, it's the difference between the speed of the slow driver and the general flow of traffic that makes them dangerous. So, if we are talking about I-95, we have one set of circumstances, and if we are talking about Buena Vista Blvd we have another. The speed limit on BV is 35. If that were enforced at 40mph, we'd see fewer cars going 50, and the poor soul going 30 in the right lane wouldn't be such a danger.

Now, onto the topic at hand: Morse, north of 466. Nowhere in any of your links do they apply this "slow drivers are more dangerous than speeders" logic to roadways shared with golf cars. Again, the speed limit is not enforced. If it were, you'd have less of a differential of speeds between the golf cars and the big cars, and that would make it safer.

[Laker14]

The problem (to Patzy) with police pulling over speeders: they'd be pulling them over to the exact spot where golf carts can (barely) legally drive. They're not (legally) allowed to drive on Morse, except in the designated lined area in each direction between just past the gate at 466 to just before the roundabout at Paige Place.

If a police car has a car pulled over onto the side of the road, they'll both be blocking golf cart traffic. That forces golf carts (and bicyclers and pedestrians, who are also allowed on that mini-lane) to merge into the 30mph road. It's not a big deal if they're expecting to do that when they're turning left onto a side street or onto the MMP near the gate. It's another matter entirely when it's sudden, when there's already a lot of traffic on the road.

I agree. That is a problem. However, it needs to be done and addressed in the safest possible manner. One way would be to pull the car over and direct the car to a side street or mailbox station, depending upon where on the road the car was pulled over. They wouldn't need to park there for the entire duration of the traffic stop. The alternative, no enforcement ever, is more dangerous than enforcing in a sensible way.

[Patzy]

Not looking for police on Morse. Recommending automatic ticketing which doesn't require any law enforcement presence.

[Bill14564]

...

Now, onto the topic at hand: Morse, north of 466. Nowhere in any of your links do they apply this "slow drivers are more dangerous than speeders" logic to roadways shared with golf cars. Again, the speed limit is not enforced. If it were, you'd have less of a differential of speeds between the golf cars and the big cars, and that would make it safer.

A lot to dispute in the missing section but I'm confident others will take care of that.

In this paragraph I really wonder: Most (all?) of the cart/car accidents involve the cart pulling into the path of an automobile. Most (all?) of the injuries are due to the cart occupant being ejected from the cart. So if enforcing or lowering the speeds of the big cars will make it safer then how low do those speeds need to go? At what speed would a car need to be traveling such that it would be safe for a golf cart to pull into its path with less possibility that the occupant would be ejected?

[Patzy]

I agree. That is a problem. However, it needs to be done and addressed in the safest possible manner. One way would be to pull the car over and direct the car to a side street or mailbox station, depending upon where on the road the car was pulled over. They wouldn't need to park there for the entire duration of the traffic stop. The alternative, no enforcement ever, is more dangerous than enforcing in a sensible way.
I'm really recommending automatic ticketing for speeding in two locations on Morse. Halfway between the entrances and the 1st traffic light. Doesn't require any play enforcement. If you speed, you automatically get a speeding ticket sent to the license plate owner. Not sure how this works with rentals, but the plate is tied to the driver. To me, this is a better result for the amount of money and effort in trying to create multi-model paths.

[Bill14564]

Not looking for police on Morse. Recommending automatic ticketing which doesn't require any law enforcement presence.

Just say no to constant monitoring, automatic ticketing, ugly boxes on the side of the road, and another way for Govt to spend tax dollars. Repeal the speed camera law for school zones, don't expand it.

[Laker14]

Just say no to constant monitoring, automatic ticketing, ugly boxes on the side of the road, and another way for Govt to spend tax dollars. Repeal the speed camera law for school zones, don't expand it.

I disagree. I don't like speeders to go unchecked.

[golfing eagles]

I've read many of those links and what you fail to mention in your repeated references to the issue is that they are referring to drivers who drive " 10mph below the average speed" being 6 times more likely to be involved in an accident.
This being especially a problem on multi-lane roads with the slow driver in the left lane.
What they don't mention is the degree of severity of the accidents and how the severity relates to the speed of the vehicle. They do mention that a significant number of the accidents that are "caused" by slow drivers are the result of impatience on the part of drivers stuck behind slow drivers.

Also, they discuss that slow drivers are often poor drivers, and distracted drivers. Those most likely to drive excessively slowly are older drivers who don't see well, feel intimidated by driving fast, and brand new drivers who aren't yet comfortable in fast traffic.
As dangerous as they are, we really don't want them driving faster.

What your incessant claim that slow drivers are more dangerous than speeders doesn't acknowledge (EVER) is that it is not the overall speed of the driver that makes them dangerous, it's the difference between the speed of the slow driver and the general flow of traffic that makes them dangerous. So, if we are talking about I-95, we have one set of circumstances, and if we are talking about Buena Vista Blvd we have another. The speed limit on BV is 35. If that were enforced at 40mph, we'd see fewer cars going 50, and the poor soul going 30 in the right lane wouldn't be such a danger.

Now, onto the topic at hand: Morse, north of 466. Nowhere in any of your links do they apply this "slow drivers are more dangerous than speeders" logic to roadways shared with golf cars. Again, the speed limit is not enforced. If it were, you'd have less of a differential of speeds between the golf cars and the big cars, and that I would make it safer.

Surprisingly, I agree with most of that. Most of the problems with slow drivers ARE on high speed highways. And differential speed does determine severity. I have driven that segment of Morse a lot and rarely see ridiculous speeds. Also, the thread was primarily addressing the crossover southbound at the 466 gate, where speed isn’t really an issue since cars are either slowing down for the southbound gate or just coming through the northbound gate. I think I already posted what happens there. As far as not wanting unskilled drivers to go any faster, I’ll go further and state that I don’t want them driving at all
I’m just not a big fan of Draconian solutions to relatively minor problems

[Marathon Man]

Just say no to constant monitoring, automatic ticketing, ugly boxes on the side of the road, and another way for Govt to spend tax dollars. Repeal the speed camera law for school zones, don't expand it.

I say, "Just say yes".

Let the LEOs tackle things that cannot be handled by a camera while slowing down those that can't obey traffic laws and collecting fines to pay for the devices. A win-win-win.

[Marathon Man]

I say, "Just say yes".

Let the LEOs tackle things that cannot be handled by a camera while slowing down those that can't obey traffic laws and collecting fines to pay for the devices. A win-win-win.

Oh. I forgot, making the road safer for golf carts. Make that win-win-win-win.

[tophcfa]

Nice post, unfortunately it loses most of its meaning once you realize that statistically slow drivers cause more accidents than speeders

I agree that slow car drivers cause automobile accidents on roads and slow golf cart drivers cause golf cart accidents on the MMPs. However, when cars and golf carts are forced to share the road, speeding automobiles present a very significant danger to golf carts. Controlling automobiles from speeding on Morse Blvd. between 466 and El Camino Real, where automobiles and golf carts are required to co-exist on a busy section of road, would definitely make it safer for golf carts.

[Patzy]

A lot to dispute in the missing section but I'm confident others will take care of that.

In this paragraph I really wonder: Most (all?) of the cart/car accidents involve the cart pulling into the path of an automobile. Most (all?) of the injuries are due to the cart occupant being ejected from the cart. So if enforcing or lowering the speeds of the big cars will make it safer then how low do those speeds need to go? At what speed would a car need to be traveling such that it would be safe for a golf cart to pull into its path with less possibility that the occupant would be ejected?
Let's start with the posted speeds of 30 for cars and 20 for golf carts. I will assume that traffic management engineers determined these speeds to be a safe combination for the situation. However, we have no way to know since these speeds are not used or enforced. So, let's police to the existing postings without playing hypothetical.

[Bill14564]

Let's start with the posted speeds of 30 for cars and 20 for golf carts. I will assume that traffic management engineers determined these speeds to be a safe combination for the situation. However, we have no way to know since these speeds are not used or enforced. So, let's police to the existing postings without playing hypothetical.

A 3,000lb automobile traveling 30mph and hitting the 600lb golf cart that turned in front of it is not going to have a safe outcome - nothing hypothetical about that.

I would not make that assumption about traffic engineers. Given the Villages was creating a golf cart community and the laws say golf carts cannot travel on roads with a speed limit above 30mph, I think it is highly likely that the current 30mph limit was chosen to allow the carts. This would also be consistent with Morse (below 466) and Buena Vista being set at 35mph rather than 45mph. 35mph is high enough to keep golf carts off the roads but low enough to allow LSVs.

But sure, police the area to crack down on the speeders and see if that makes any difference at all.

[DonH57]

Totally agree! The Village’s has the absolute worst drivers I have ever seen in my long life, whether it be by automobile, bicycle, or golf cart. And that’s coming from someone whose northern home is Massachusetts, where drivers in the eastern part of the state are referred to as Massholes! I always assume all other drivers are complete idiots and are going to do the absolutely most stupid thing possible. The last thing I want to do is get into an accident and wind up in what is probably the worst Emergency Room in the entire country.

Just spent two weeks visiting Massachusetts and New Hampshire. Easy part of driving up there is you pretty much know how they drive and what to expect. Here your defensive driving skills are increased three fold!:22yikes:

[DonH57]

Never understood why Morse is a two land road north of 466 and Buena Vista build as four land road.

Same here and I often wonder why the golf cart path running partially down Morse wasn't ran all the way to the crossover by the cart bridge. There was plenty of room to do it and the underground power could have been ran under like they did along the BV path.

[eyc234]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;2248444]Nice post, unfortunately it loses most of its meaning once you realize that statistically slow drivers cause more accidents than speeders[/QUO

If slow you mean the speed limit, then not sure your quote is correct from reviewing national & state statistics. If you mean severely under the speed limit then there could be some truth. But in any case it is against the law and we are suppose to be a nation of laws and fine upstanding citizens that obey the law.

In any case the Morse issues should be looked at in the same light as other roadways in The Villages. Live off of St Charles road and the speed limit on that road is the same as Morse. The traffic is probably not quite as heavy but none the less it is an extremely busy street with a lot of people going over the speed limit. It would also have a greater safety issue as the curb by the cart path is almost(I said almost) impossible to go over should evasive action be required. Not sure but would put a guess that there are far fewer golfcart wrecks on St Charles than Morse Blvd. Would lead one to assume that it is not the roadway that is the issue. There are issues and resolutions that need to be resolved but it cannot be that an inanimate object, the road, is the cause of accidents.

[FishnFool]

I live in Rio Ponderosa. I can remember when there was no red light at San Marino and Morse Blvd., so Thank goodness for that being added! Returning from my mail station to home (heading north from west side of Morse) requires timing and patience!

Unfortunately there is no cost effective way to fix the whole corridor between 466 and Rio Grande (or even El Camino Real). The crossover of cart traffic going south just north of 466 is an accident waiting to happen! 2 car lanes heading North on Morse trying to merge into 1 while golf carts trying to cross their path! The cars are actually vying against each to get there first, while us in Carts just watch! WTF! I’d like to see a permanent solution for that area!

FYI I appreciate the Clyde Long (may he RIP yes I knew and Loved him!) golf path solution for folks to access our Mail Station for the Villa De La Vista North folks! It is actually a one way boardwalk for the golf carts to use to access the mail Station along the west side of Morse heading North.
Something like that is a REAL solution!

Maybe something as simple as 25 speed limit or even 20 for autos on that strip of Morse. Could that make merging safer? Maybe reduce thru traffic?

Just trying to keep it simple and cheap and safe for us folk that need to use that corridor everyday!

[VApeople]

Unfortunately there is no cost effective way to fix the whole corridor between 466 and Rio Grande (or even El Camino Real).

That is exactly why many of us did not buy a house that requires us to drive on that section of Morse Road.

Before we moved here in 2016, people on TOTV warned everyone about that section of Morse Road, and we paid attention to them.

[Normal]

sadly this is was a dead issue when Sumter county refused to share any part of the cost. The basic problem, however, was the poor vision by the developers that put cars and carts on the same major thoroughfare. Fortunately they learned that lesson south of 466,

Nah, look at Meggison near Sawgrass just before it hits all straightaway to 470. It’s shared with lines for golf carts.

[kkingston57]

Has anybody got a dime?
I don’t got a dime
I got nothing.

Good song from Boz Scaggs, Loan me a Dime.

[kkingston57]

The problem (to Patzy) with police pulling over speeders: they'd be pulling them over to the exact spot where golf carts can (barely) legally drive. They're not (legally) allowed to drive on Morse, except in the designated lined area in each direction between just past the gate at 466 to just before the roundabout at Paige Place.

If a police car has a car pulled over onto the side of the road, they'll both be blocking golf cart traffic. That forces golf carts (and bicyclers and pedestrians, who are also allowed on that mini-lane) to merge into the 30mph road. It's not a big deal if they're expecting to do that when they're turning left onto a side street or onto the MMP near the gate. It's another matter entirely when it's sudden, when there's already a lot of traffic on the road.

Good point. Also, I drive this road almost every day and do believe that there are very few "speeders" on this road. Only way a person would SEE a speeder is admitting that you are speeding unless someone passes you on this road.

[kkingston57]

Not looking for police on Morse. Recommending automatic ticketing which doesn't require any law enforcement presence.

Also, this would help the ticket attorneys. They rarely loose or if get the ticket dismissed when people are ticketed and their fees are less than the fine.

[golfing eagles]

To all those that are clamoring for more speed limit enforcement, consider this: Yesterday rode a bus from Sorrento to Florence. Without any probable cause the Italian police can stop the bus, board it to check that passengers are wearing their seat belts and check the driver’s “card”—an electronic record of how many hours he has driven and how much rest time. I assume this is done in the name of “safety”. Is this what we want in The Villages? Yeah, yeah some will argue that they JUST want the speed strictly enforced at 30 (or 32 or 34 or whatever speed THEY want, since we all know that anyone driving slower than us is an idiot and anyone driving faster is a maniac). But be careful what you wish for—-slippery slope, slippery slope

[Patzy]

Will be interesting to see how Villagers in CDD1 feel about paying $12-15 million for a multimodel path if the CDD1 $116k study by Kimley-Horn recommendations are pursued. Sounds like new bonds to me.
When we could first try to maintain the legal speed. Don't need to pick a new speed there is already posted speed to manage the cars and carts.
But yea, I guess it's better for every household to pay a new assessment bond.
I know people are speeding, because I pull out onto Morse from my neighborhood and when I drive the speed limit they are tailgating me and piling up behind me. I just smile and watch them fume, until they can speed past me!
Attend the Town Hall Wed Aug 30th at LaHacienda.

[NotGolfer]

That cross-over "is" scarey and problematic. I've had people, in carts, flash me a finger (I'm in a car) because they scooted in front of me. People would rather be offensive than use common sense. I wonder how many have been it in this??!! I do know of a few (or several) who've lost to a truck/car in that northern-most circle before 441/27. That too is a nightmare. One has to watch out for the cars that think they need to hurry into the circle to beat others out as well as the golf-carts. I learned in driver's ed that we NEED to drive defensively as well as pay attention!!

[Laker14]

To all those that are clamoring for more speed limit enforcement, consider this: Yesterday rode a bus from Sorrento to Florence. Without any probable cause the Italian police can stop the bus, board it to check that passengers are wearing their seat belts and check the driver’s “card”—an electronic record of how many hours he has driven and how much rest time. I assume this is done in the name of “safety”. Is this what we want in The Villages? Yeah, yeah some will argue that they JUST want the speed strictly enforced at 30 (or 32 or 34 or whatever speed THEY want, since we all know that anyone driving slower than us is an idiot and anyone driving faster is a maniac). But be careful what you wish for—-slippery slope, slippery slope

that is a very large jump you have made from enforcing a posted speed limit to the scenario you describe. Certainly, some enforcement of laws is needed. The existence of the "slippery slope" is a good reason for the continued monitoring and control of police powers, but not a reason to have zero law enforcement.

[golfing eagles]

that is a very large jump you have made from enforcing a posted speed limit to the scenario you describe. Certainly, some enforcement of laws is needed. The existence of the "slippery slope" is a good reason for the continued monitoring and control of police powers, but not a reason to have zero law enforcement.

A jump, but not that large. Do you support stops to check for seat belt use? After all, it’s the law. Or is it just one law and not the other you want enforced? How about our truckers? They have laws against driving too many hours here as well. Enforcement sadly lacking there. How about something that is not a law?—-since there are no vehicle inspections in Florida, someone could drive a dangerous piece of crap , but God forbid anyone goes 31 on Morse. Again, the thread was addressing the difficult crossover at 466. I wonder how many accidents occurred midway between 466 and ElCamino, and how many were caused by “speeders”

[Normal]

Will be interesting to see how Villagers in CDD1 feel about paying $12-15 million for a multimodel path if the CDD1 $116k study by Kimley-Horn recommendations are pursued. Sounds like new bonds to me.
When we could first try to maintain the legal speed. Don't need to pick a new speed there is already posted speed to manage the cars and carts.
But yea, I guess it's better for every household to pay a new assessment bond.
I know people are speeding, because I pull out onto Morse from my neighborhood and when I drive the speed limit they are tailgating me and piling up behind me. I just smile and watch them fume, until they can speed past me!
Attend the Town Hall Wed Aug 30th at LaHacienda.

No work is ever going to be done. The situation isn’t unique to some other ares in The Villages and no one wants a new bond. Heck, you just got the 700 dollar tax increase for the repair of the sewer system.

[Laker14]

A jump, but not that large. Do you support stops to check for seat belt use? After all, it’s the law. Or is it just one law and not the other you want enforced? How about our truckers? They have laws against driving too many hours here as well. Enforcement sadly lacking there. How about something that is not a law?—-since there are no vehicle inspections in Florida, someone could drive a dangerous piece of crap , but God forbid anyone goes 31 on Morse. Again, the thread was addressing the difficult crossover at 466. I wonder how many accidents occurred midway between 466 and ElCamino, and how many were caused by “speeders”

Actually, the OP referred to two studies that addressed the entire roadway north of 466, and included options for separating automobile and golf car traffic, as well as dealing with the issue of the crossover at the 466 gate.
As the thread progresses, there are opinions stated that while the current situation is not ideal, separating the automobile traffic from golf cars by building an MMP would have many negative consequences (including expense) and that a reasonable improvement could be made by dealing with the crossover situation, and enforcing speed limits.

You are making a standard straw man argument by suggesting that simply by enforcing posted speed limits (something that is done routinely by law enforcement ) will somehow lead to stopping busses without probable cause to enforce laws (something that is currently done with DWI "wildcat" stops, and something I personally disagree with), and that since not all laws are equally enforced, somehow that suggests that enforcing speed limits on a particularly dangerous and poorly designed roadway is inappropriate.

[golfing eagles]

Actually, the OP referred to two studies that addressed the entire roadway north of 466, and included options for separating automobile and golf car traffic, as well as dealing with the issue of the crossover at the 466 gate.
As the thread progresses, there are opinions stated that while the current situation is not ideal, separating the automobile traffic from golf cars by building an MMP would have many negative consequences (including expense) and that a reasonable improvement could be made by dealing with the crossover situation, and enforcing speed limits.

You are making a standard straw man argument by suggesting that simply by enforcing posted speed limits (something that is done routinely by law enforcement ) will somehow lead to stopping busses without probable cause to enforce laws (something that is currently done with DWI "wildcat" stops, and something I personally disagree with), and that since not all laws are equally enforced, somehow that suggests that enforcing speed limits on a particularly dangerous and poorly designed roadway is inappropriate.

No sale. I stand by the analogy

[Laker14]

No sale. I stand by the analogy

Ok. but just to be certain I understand your position, you are saying that speed limits should not be enforced on Morse Blvd north of 466 because stopping speeders will lead to changes in law enforcement procedures in this country to allow stops without probable cause, like what you saw in Italy.

Is that it?

[Normal]

Ok. but just to be certain I understand your position, you are saying that speed limits should not be enforced on Morse Blvd north of 466 because stopping speeders will lead to changes in law enforcement procedures in this country to allow stops without probable cause, like what you saw in Italy.

Is that it?

There could be a tax imposed on all rental properties to help pay for it. This would be better than a new bond. A dollar per square foot would help a bit?

[golfing eagles]

Ok. but just to be certain I understand your position, you are saying that speed limits should not be enforced on Morse Blvd north of 466 because stopping speeders will lead to changes in law enforcement procedures in this country to allow stops without probable cause, like what you saw in Italy.

Is that it?

Not even close

[Laker14]

To all those that are clamoring for more speed limit enforcement, consider this: Yesterday rode a bus from Sorrento to Florence. Without any probable cause the Italian police can stop the bus, board it to check that passengers are wearing their seat belts and check the driver’s “card”—an electronic record of how many hours he has driven and how much rest time. I assume this is done in the name of “safety”. Is this what we want in The Villages? Yeah, yeah some will argue that they JUST want the speed strictly enforced at 30 (or 32 or 34 or whatever speed THEY want, since we all know that anyone driving slower than us is an idiot and anyone driving faster is a maniac). But be careful what you wish for—-slippery slope, slippery slope

A jump, but not that large. Do you support stops to check for seat belt use? After all, it’s the law. Or is it just one law and not the other you want enforced? How about our truckers? They have laws against driving too many hours here as well. Enforcement sadly lacking there. How about something that is not a law?—-since there are no vehicle inspections in Florida, someone could drive a dangerous piece of crap , but God forbid anyone goes 31 on Morse. Again, the thread was addressing the difficult crossover at 466. I wonder how many accidents occurred midway between 466 and ElCamino, and how many were caused by “speeders”

No sale. I stand by the analogy

Ok. but just to be certain I understand your position, you are saying that speed limits should not be enforced on Morse Blvd north of 466 because stopping speeders will lead to changes in law enforcement procedures in this country to allow stops without probable cause, like what you saw in Italy.

Is that it?

Not even close

So, in a nutshell, is it your opinion that speed limits should or should not be enforced on Morse Blvd, north of 466? And at what speed should tickets be written?

[golfing eagles]

So, in a nutshell, is it your opinion that speed limits should or should not be enforced on Morse Blvd, north of 466? And at what speed should tickets be written?

Sorry to be ambiguous. I don’t speed and I think the laws should be enforced. But I don’t think the problems on Morse are speed related as much as a failure to yield the right of way

[cjrjck]

Perhaps the gate attendants should be more concerned about a safe flow of traffic north of the gate and not worry about traffic backing up. There is a light and turn lanes on 466 to hold the additional traffic safely south of the gate. North of the gate there is a merge and a crossing making it less safe.

Bonus to letting traffic back up to 466: A backup on 466 will generate more complaints to Sumter County to find ways to fix the problem. We may not like whatever fix they come up with, but maybe something is better than the nothing that is happening now.

Typical NY response. Or they could just move the golf cart crossover farther north to where it can be more safely executed and not interfere with the gate operations at 466.

[Laker14]

Typical NY response. Or they could just move the golf cart crossover farther north to where it can be more safely executed and not interfere with the gate operations at 466.

When you say a "typical NY response" are you referring to Buffalo, NY, Fredonia NY, perhaps Rochester? Old Forge maybe?

[Laker14]

Sorry to be ambiguous. I don’t speed and I think the laws should be enforced. But I don’t think the problems on Morse are speed related as much as a failure to yield the right of way

I think that's a sensible answer. Most accidents are the result of a failure to yield, I would guess.
I think it's also sensible to consider that speed differential between golf cars and automobiles may contribute to that. I'm pretty sure that's why there is a law that makes 30mph the max speed limit allowed on a roadway open to both types of vehicles.

While nothing is going to make the roadway idiot-proof, and since it is unlikely that anyone is going to totally rebuild the roadway to make it look like Buena Vista, it seems to me that a good start would be to enforce the speed limit in order to get drivers to use the roadway within the intended design, and see if that doesn't at least help.

And I agree that the biggest problem is the cross-over.

[cjrjck]

When you say a "typical NY response" are you referring to Buffalo, NY, Fredonia NY, perhaps Rochester? Old Forge maybe?

Potato, potahto Tomato, tomahto. :)

[Bill14564]

Typical NY response. Or they could just move the golf cart crossover farther north to where it can be more safely executed and not interfere with the gate operations at 466.

Remember, the purpose of the gate is to make the area safer for the golf carts. The golf carts don't interfere with the operation of the gate, the golf carts are the reason for the gate.

[Bill14564]

I think that's a sensible answer. Most accidents are the result of a failure to yield, I would guess.
I think it's also sensible to consider that speed differential between golf cars and automobiles may contribute to that. I'm pretty sure that's why there is a law that makes 30mph the max speed limit allowed on a roadway open to both types of vehicles.

While nothing is going to make the roadway idiot-proof, and since it is unlikely that anyone is going to totally rebuild the roadway to make it look like Buena Vista, it seems to me that a good start would be to enforce the speed limit in order to get drivers to use the roadway within the intended design, and see if that doesn't at least help.

And I agree that the biggest problem is the cross-over.

Assuming you mean the crossover just north of the gate, why do you say that is the biggest problem? I don't recall any crashes there.

Maybe there is a need for more speed enforcement but will that improve the odds of survival when a golf cart turns into the path of an automobile? Getting hit at 30mph is going to result in some damage.

[cjrjck]

Remember, the purpose of the gate is to make the area safer for the golf carts. The golf carts don't interfere with the operation of the gate, the golf carts are the reason for the gate.

The two gates on Morris north of 466 are there so that each of the roads intersecting Morris between 466 and El Camino Real/ Paige Place do not have to have their own gates like they do south of 466. Remove those two gates and by my quick count TV would have to put up an additional 23 gates.

[Bill14564]

The two gates on Morris north of 466 are there so that each of the roads intersecting Morris between 466 and El Camino Real/ Paige Place do not have to have their own gates like they do south of 466. Remove those two gates and by my quick count TV would have to put up an additional 23 gates.

Or, like the gates on Hillsborough and Pinellas and countless others, they are there to slow traffic entering an area where golf carts share the road.

[DonH57]

Assuming you mean the crossover just north of the gate, why do you say that is the biggest problem? I don't recall any crashes there.

Maybe there is a need for more speed enforcement but will that improve the odds of survival when a golf cart turns into the path of an automobile? Getting hit at 30mph is going to result in some damage.

I don't recall any crashes there either. I'm sure it's happened as I've seen close calls by carts playing chicken with cars or cars gunning thru the gate like they saw the green on the christmas tree!

[cjrjck]

Or, like the gates on Hillsborough and Pinellas and countless others, they are there to slow traffic entering an area where golf carts share the road.

I know you are just being silly now. The gates primary purpose are to serve as an entrance and egress into TV. Somewhat unique is the fact that if you are on Morris between El Camino Real and 466 you do not go through a gate to enter or exit any of the neighborhoods along that stretch of the road. In fact, you can turn on several roads like Rio Grande and do not pass through a gate until you technically exit TV. If the main purpose of gates is to slow traffic where golf carts share the road, then the dozens and dozens of locations where roads intersect Morris and Rio Grande that are lacking such protections. As for Pinellas and Hillsborough, think. There are no entry gates on Morris or Buena Vista south of 466 so all traffic wanting access to residences in TV must enter and exit a gate somewhere.

[Laker14]

Assuming you mean the crossover just north of the gate, why do you say that is the biggest problem? I don't recall any crashes there.

Maybe there is a need for more speed enforcement but will that improve the odds of survival when a golf cart turns into the path of an automobile? Getting hit at 30mph is going to result in some damage.

I say it's the biggest problem because it's heavily congested. The traffic moving southbound as you approach it is busy, and the golf cars have to cross over the auto traffic, and then make a left turn across a steady stream of traffic coming out of the gate.

As far as 30mph speeds not increasing the chance of survival, you may be right, but it should increase the chance of not having the collision in the first place.

[tophcfa]

Or they could just move the golf cart crossover farther north to where it can be more safely executed and not interfere with the gate operations at 466.

And where would you suggest the southbound carts drive once they crossover farther north of the gate?

[Normal]

If all traffic was slowed to 20 mph at the gate, then there would be less competition for pole position. Cars and carts would be arched evenly for speed and you wouldn’t necessarily get that last car ramp up of speed?

[cjrjck]

If all traffic was slowed to 20 mph at the gate, then there would be less competition for pole position. Cars and carts would be arched evenly for speed and you wouldn’t necessarily get that last car ramp up of speed?

I am not sure I understand. Northbound traffic comes to a stop or near stop at the gate. The resident lane has to card in. The visitor lane has to wait to be waved in. Southbound traffic has to watch for the gate arms to come down. They default in the down position. If you see them up as you approach you need to slow down in case they come down before you can trip the sensor. Bottom line is the gate is no place for a golf cart crossing.

[Bill14564]

I am not sure I understand. Northbound traffic comes to a stop or near stop at the gate. The resident lane has to card in. The visitor lane has to wait to be waved in. Southbound traffic has to watch for the gate arms to come down. They default in the down position. If you see them up as you approach you need to slow down in case they come down before you can trip the sensor. Bottom line is the gate is no place for a golf cart crossing.

Again, the gate is there FOR the golf cart crossing.

One of the problems is the cars in the northbound visitors lane are sometimes waived through at two or three visitors to one resident. Discontinue that practice, maybe drop the visitor gate between vehicles, and the dangerous crossing gets much less dangerous.

[Laker14]

Again, the gate is there FOR the golf cart crossing.

One of the problems is the cars in the northbound visitors lane are sometimes waived through at two or three visitors to one resident. Discontinue that practice, maybe drop the visitor gate between vehicles, and the dangerous crossing gets much less dangerous.

Totally agree.
I wasn't here when that was designed and placed, and I don't even know when that was, but I suspect there wasn't the traffic flow of automobiles heading north from 466 or Morse from points south as there is now. I'm not sure what the effect would be on the traffic at the light if the gatekeeper held the gate closed to allow golf car traffic to cross.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have received instructions to keep the cars moving, rather than worry about the golf cars. It certainly seems that way.

[cjrjck]

Again, the gate is there FOR the golf cart crossing.



And again you are wrong. If the gate at Morris was not there, all of the residences in De la Vista, Rio Ponderosa, Del Mar, Mira Mesa, Rio Grande, Palo Alto, Santo Domingo (and the list goes on) would be accesable by automobile without having to enter TV by a gate. You just don't know this part of TV well.

[Bill14564]

And again you are wrong. If the gate at Morris was not there, all of the residences in De la Vista, Rio Ponderosa, Del Mar, Mira Mesa, Rio Grande, Palo Alto, Santo Domingo (and the list goes on) would be accesable by automobile without having to enter TV by a gate. You just don't know this part of TV well.

Strange, people who have never met me keep telling me what I do and do not know.

I know exactly what you are describing but I am not wrong. At best it is a chicken or egg situation. The area where golf carts are allowed on the roads has gates at the entrances - this is the same both north and south of 466. The golf cart crossings are inside the gates such that automobile traffic must stop before reaching the crossing - this is the same both north and south of 466.

The crossings and the gates could have been placed at different locations which were not adjacent to each other, but they were not. The gates and crossings were placed to protect the crossings - this is the same both north and south of 466.

What is different is golf carts are allowed on Morse north of 466 while south of 466 Morse is a through road. Therefore, gates are present on Morse when it becomes golf cart accessible north of 466 but are placed on the side roads south of 466 if they are golf cart accessible.

You find the same thing on Meggison. Where it meets Morse there is no golf cart access and no gate. Where golf carts are allowed, down near Sawgrass, a gate has been installed to slow traffic.

[Laker14]

And again you are wrong. If the gate at Morris was not there, all of the residences in De la Vista, Rio Ponderosa, Del Mar, Mira Mesa, Rio Grande, Palo Alto, Santo Domingo (and the list goes on) would be accesable by automobile without having to enter TV by a gate. You just don't know this part of TV well.

And what would the purpose of having all of those gates be? They aren't security gates.
this if from the district.gov website:VCDD Risk Management (https://www.districtgov.org/departments/Risk-Management/district-gate-information.aspx#:~:text=The%20primary%20function% 20of%20the,control%20throughout%20The%20Villages%2 0community).

"The primary function of the gate is to slow traffic through the area while the primary responsibility of the Gate Attendant is to assist with traffic control throughout The Villages community."

So whether or not there would be gates in all of the other areas, as you describe, does not change the purpose and function of the gate at 466 on Morse Blvd. It is there to control traffic.

[Normal]

The easiest solution is ban golf carts on the roads. There is no mandate to accommodate golf carts on our roads. I know this seems harsh, but driving a golf cart anywhere is a luxury. All the areas mentioned are accessible by car.

[Bill14564]

The easiest solution is ban golf carts on the roads. There is no mandate to accommodate golf carts on our roads. I know this seems harsh, but driving a golf cart anywhere is a luxury. All the areas mentioned are accessible by car.

A golf cart community that doesn't allow golf carts. There's some out of the box thinking.

[JMintzer]

The easiest solution is ban golf carts on the roads. There is no mandate to accommodate golf carts on our roads. I know this seems harsh, but driving a golf cart anywhere is a luxury. All the areas mentioned are accessible by car.

Well, considering it IS a "Golf Cart Community", and that is one of the major draws...

[Patzy]

There could be a tax imposed on all rental properties to help pay for it. This would be better than a new bond. A dollar per square foot would help a bit?
Existing rental properties already pay taxes, amenity fees, etc. I don't own a rental, but see this as unrelated to usage.

[Normal]

Well, considering it IS a "Golf Cart Community", and that is one of the major draws...

True…but it has already been developed. I guess the “draw” to the existing community would need upgrading by its citizens in CDD1? Maybe a new bond could rejuvenate the area and upgrade it? I’m sure the old bond for that area is already paid off.

[Patzy]

Remember, the purpose of the gate is to make the area safer for the golf carts. The golf carts don't interfere with the operation of the gate, the golf carts are the reason for the gate.
The gates are to stop vehicles so the picture is taken if the license plate. And the attendants are there to assist folks with directions, etc.

[Patzy]

Strange, people who have never met me keep telling me what I do and do not know.

I know exactly what you are describing but I am not wrong. At best it is a chicken or egg situation. The area where golf carts are allowed on the roads has gates at the entrances - this is the same both north and south of 466. The golf cart crossings are inside the gates such that automobile traffic must stop before reaching the crossing - this is the same both north and south of 466.

The crossings and the gates could have been placed at different locations which were not adjacent to each other, but they were not. The gates and crossings were placed to protect the crossings - this is the same both north and south of 466.

What is different is golf carts are allowed on Morse north of 466 while south of 466 Morse is a through road. Therefore, gates are present on Morse when it becomes golf cart accessible north of 466 but are placed on the side roads south of 466 if they are golf cart accessible.

You find the same thing on Meggison. Where it meets Morse there is no golf cart access and no gate. Where golf carts are allowed, down near Sawgrass, a gate has been installed to slow traffic.
Gates are not installed for golf carts management. To take pics of license.

[Normal]

Gates are not installed for golf carts management. To take pics of license.

Of course most camera systems today can take a photo at 100 mph with complete clarity. Just look at your SunPass statements. “Shutter speed” is as fast as electronic capacity. They are used on most expressways?

[Patzy]

True…but it has already been developed. I guess the “draw” to the existing community would need upgrading by its citizens in CDD1? Maybe a new bond could rejuvenate the area and upgrade it? I’m sure the old bond for that area is already paid off.
I live purposely north of 466. I knew and understood my infrastructure and amenities when I moved here. I understood the roads here. People should buy homes in areas that suit their personal needs. Not move into an area and then try and change it. TV does enough of that I hope that CDD1 doesn't pursue the $15M potential cost which would be more for sure.
There is little to no speeding enforcement on Morse. I live right off of it. Sheriff says they don't have resources. Then install automatic ticketing. Slow people down, punish speeding, commercial vehicles won't like the 30 mph and especially if ticketed, and will choose a different route.

[Patzy]

Of course most camera systems today can take a photo at 100 mph with complete clarity. Just look at your SunPass statements. “Shutter speed” is as fast as electronic capacity. They are used on most expressways?
True.

[cjrjck]

Gates may in many cases serve a secondary purpose and that is to slow traffic for golf cart safety. However, in most cases the primary function of the gates is automobile access. I know of nowhere in TV where it is possible to access a residential area without passing through a gate first. There could be exceptions around areas still under construction. In most places, especially off Morse and Buena Vista, each intersecting road has a gate. There are exceptions like El Camino Real and Buena Vista and Stillwater Trail but no residences are accessed that way. The biggest exception are the areas serviced between El Camino Real/Morse and Morse/466 including the gates at Spanish Springs, El Cortez, Chula Vista and the two off El Camino Real (servicing Santiago and Santo Domingo). The entire region between these gates is "sterile" meaning no other gates exist to enter individual neighborhoods like elsewhere in TV. Enter one of these gates and you won't see another until you technically leave TV (controlled access area) onto 466, Avenida Central, or El Camino Real. And that is why only this section of Morse is gated and nowhere else. It has nothing to do with golf carts.

[Laker14]

The easiest solution is ban golf carts on the roads. There is no mandate to accommodate golf carts on our roads. I know this seems harsh, but driving a golf cart anywhere is a luxury. All the areas mentioned are accessible by car.

I would not be in favor of that. I'd rather take my chances and be able to drive my cart to the golf courses I enjoy north of 466.

I suspect that Hacienda and Tierra del Sol would lose some business if they had to rent carts out. Villagers love their carts. That's why we are here.

[tophcfa]

The easiest solution is ban golf carts on the roads. There is no mandate to accommodate golf carts on our roads. I know this seems harsh, but driving a golf cart anywhere is a luxury. All the areas mentioned are accessible by car.

So basically what you are saying is let’s screw over all the people who live in that general vicinity and bought into the “golf cart community” concept. Pretty selfish statement.

[Normal]

So basically what you are saying is let’s screw over all the people who live in that general vicinity and bought into the “golf cart community” concept. Pretty selfish statement.

Not at All

To everyone who doesn’t use that path area in Sumter county, it makes sense. But if you do utilize the paths, then I can understand you wanting to maintain them. I’m just on the pragmatic side of the majority of citizens that will never even grace the area. Use the paths if you have them, and by all means improve on them if you want to pay for them. To me, it’s a matter of I won’t ever drive that way. The farthest north we would take the cart is maybe Roosevelt? We live in the southern area and have zero desire to drive a cart more than 45 minutes in any direction.

[JMintzer]

The gates are to stop vehicles so the picture is taken if the license plate. And the attendants are there to assist folks with directions, etc.

What about the majority of gates without attendants? How do people going thru those gates get directions?

[JMintzer]

Gates are not installed for golf carts management. To take pics of license.

Incorrect...

[Patzy]

What about the majority of gates without attendants? How do people going thru those gates get directions?
Typically not at a major roadway.
TV is an evolution life style model. Nothing else in the world like it. Obviously the original model expanded over almost 30 years. TV constantly changes new sections for many reasons. There's a lot of different locations that offers different experiences.
I appreciate the gates as an unintrusive monitoring and traffic mgmt tool. Not intended to be an absolute. Just like the golf cart paths was and is an evolution. The entire historic area road shares. Folks really should move to an area that suits their lifestyle and amenity desires. Don't move to a place that doesn't have a major cost item and then want others to pay for this.

[Two Bills]

To all those that are clamoring for more speed limit enforcement, consider this: Yesterday rode a bus from Sorrento to Florence. Without any probable cause the Italian police can stop the bus, board it to check that passengers are wearing their seat belts and check the driver’s “card”—an electronic record of how many hours he has driven and how much rest time.

I drove in Italy for many years for a living.
Probably the only time the Polizia Locale stopped commercial vehicles to inspect records etc. was just before lunch, or rent day, then a few thousand Lira usually solved all problems.
Any traffic laws were beneath the dignity of the Carabinieri so you could ignore them when driving.
Can't believe the extremely efficient system of raising ready cash has altered that much over the years, unless the crooked gits are now accepting credit cards!

[Laker14]

I drove in Italy for many years for a living.
Probably the only time the Polizia Locale stopped commercial vehicles to inspect records etc. was just before lunch, or rent day, then a few thousand Lira usually solved all problems.
Any traffic laws were beneath the dignity of the Carabinieri so you could ignore them when driving.
Can't believe the extremely efficient system of raising ready cash has altered that much over the years, unless the crooked gits are now accepting credit cards!

Venmo

[DonH57]

I would not be in favor of that. I'd rather take my chances and be able to drive my cart to the golf courses I enjoy north of 466.

I suspect that Hacienda and Tierra del Sol would lose some business if they had to rent carts out. Villagers love their carts. That's why we are here.

There's a lot of us that would not favor it either. Some move here knowing it's a golf cart community and of course whine about seeing or sharing the road with them like they do about the gates. Since the state of Florida rules which roads can have golf cart traffic can you imagine the effect of every golf cart community retirement or otherwise if Florida banned golf carts on every street. Can you imagine having to drive your car not even a eighth of a mile to rent a golf cart at any of the courses plus the aggravation of not having a pace to possibly park?

[Two Bills]

Venmo

From UK would probably be PayPal nowadays.
Actually the most crooked worked in Customs. (Dogana)
No coffee money?
Always a problem with paperwork or in my day, Permits!
French weren't much better either.