View Full Version : Newest NY AirBnB regulations
Normal
09-05-2023, 11:27 AM
NYC has incorporated some great regulations to get a handle on VERBOs and AirBnBs. It’s a 5,000 dollar fine for getting caught without a license and none can be rented less than 30 days. When will we get something like that in The Villages? It would be a great way to get a handle on the STR problem.
Thousands of Airbnb listings in NYC face removal amid backlog: report (https://nypost.com/2023/09/04/thousands-of-airbnb-listings-in-nyc-face-removal-amid-backlog-report/)
Bill14564
09-05-2023, 11:53 AM
First, you would have to get the county to agree that there is a STR problem.
Then, you would have to get them to pass the ordinance.
Then, you would have to put the permitting, inspection, and compliance organization into place to include finding a source of funding.
Once all that is done, you will have to hope that your new rules that put strangers into the same home with no locked doors doesn't lead to newspaper headlines.
Normal
09-05-2023, 12:11 PM
First, you would have to get the county to agree that there is a STR problem.
Then, you would have to get them to pass the ordinance.
Then, you would have to put the permitting, inspection, and compliance organization into place to include finding a source of funding.
Once all that is done, you will have to hope that your new rules that put strangers into the same home with no locked doors doesn't lead to newspaper headlines.
Seems fairly straightforward…thanks. The measure could be placed before voters, funding for enforcement could easily be a surplus in the budget through licensing/fines, and if there were issues with landlords having to reside during their “guests” stay, then many would decide not to rent. It’s a win/ win.
Bill14564
09-05-2023, 12:19 PM
Seems fairly straightforward…thanks. The measure could be placed before voters, funding for enforcement could easily be a surplus in the budget through licensing/fines, and if there were issues with landlords having to reside during their “guests” stay, then many would decide not to rent. It’s a win/ win.
Funding for enforcement would never be a surplus. There couldn't be enough fees or fines to cover the administrative costs. Especially not since, if your plan works as desired, it will drive all rentals to close leaving an administrative staff looking to be paid but with nothing to administer.
If/when issues occurred, deciding not to rent would be closing the barn door after the horses got out. In our litigious society someone would come looking for money from whoever it was that created the situation that led to the issue. I'm surprised Orlando and NYC aren't concerned about this, just as I am surprised there apparently have not been any issues to report on.
Normal
09-05-2023, 12:24 PM
In our litigious society someone would come looking for money from whoever it was that created the situation that led to the issue. I'm surprised Orlando and NYC aren't concerned about this, just as I am surprised there apparently have not been any issues to report on.
The litigant would be the one who decided to rent. Of course they could sue the tenant, but why not go for the big fish? **** and AirBnB have deep pockets. Of course whether they won or not could depend on their choice to even start the process of renting out their home to begin with.
Bill14564
09-05-2023, 12:27 PM
The litigant would be the one who decided to rent. Of course they could sue the tenant, but why not go for the big fish? **** and AirBnB have deep pockets. Of course whether they won or not could depend on their choice to even start the process of renting out their home to begin with.
The litigant could be either party. AirBnB did not create the rules requiring cohabitation, the cities of NY and Orlando did. Renting was safe and legal until the new ordinances required unsafe practices in order to legally rent.
Normal
09-05-2023, 12:30 PM
The litigant could be either party. AirBnB did not create the rules requiring cohabitation, the cities of NY and Orlando did. Renting was safe and legal until the new ordinances required unsafe practices in order to legally rent.
No, the cause or initial premise would be deciding to rent your home to strangers initially. Problems would be self inflicted. Philosophy 101, follow the argument tree to the initial premise. Maybe NYC and Orlando have great reason to not worry.
Randall55
09-05-2023, 12:32 PM
Funding for enforcement would never be a surplus. There couldn't be enough fees or fines to cover the administrative costs. Especially not since, if your plan works as desired, it will drive all rentals to close leaving an administrative staff looking to be paid but with nothing to administer.
If/when issues occurred, deciding not to rent would be closing the barn door after the horses got out. In our litigious society someone would come looking for money from whoever it was that created the situation that led to the issue. I'm surprised Orlando and NYC aren't concerned about this, just as I am surprised there apparently have not been any issues to report on. If the County wants to make rules regarding Air BNBs, they will do it. It doesn't need a referendum and a license is already required in Florida. No further steps needed.
What enforcement costs? You think they are going to pay someone to knock on every door? That is not how it works. For example, gun laws in Florida. No one strictly enforcing but it is a law. If you get caught, you pay the price. The same will be with Air BNBs. Most neighbors will report violators and that is how they will get caught.
Bill14564
09-05-2023, 12:41 PM
No, the cause or initial premise would be deciding to rent your home to strangers initially. Problems would be self inflicted. Philosophy 101, follow the argument tree to the initial premise. Maybe NYC and Orlando have great reason to not worry.
Forgive me if I am skeptical of your knowledge of the law.
Bill14564
09-05-2023, 12:43 PM
If the County wants to make rules regarding Air BNBs, they will do it. It doesn't need a referendum and a license is already required in Florida. No further steps needed.
What enforcement costs? You think they are going to pay someone to knock on every door? That is not how it works. For example, gun laws in Florida. No one strictly enforcing but it is a law. If you get caught, you pay the price. The same will be with Air BNBs. Most neighbors will report violators and that is how they will get caught.
Have you looked at the NYC law that the OP is proposing to use as a model?
rustyp
09-05-2023, 12:44 PM
Funny how many people support capitalism until feathers are ruffled in their neighborhood.
Normal
09-05-2023, 02:36 PM
If the County wants to make rules regarding Air BNBs, they will do it. It doesn't need a referendum and a license is already required in Florida. No further steps needed.
What enforcement costs? You think they are going to pay someone to knock on every door? That is not how it works. For example, gun laws in Florida. No one strictly enforcing but it is a law. If you get caught, you pay the price. The same will be with Air BNBs. Most neighbors will report violators and that is how they will get caught.
Using special software, the companies use short-term rental listings and other public records to identify short-term rental addresses and owners. These are then matched up with a city’s records to see which rentals are out of compliance or whether operators are dodging tax obligations.
Host Compliance, LTAS Technologies and STR Helper all do a great job looking 24/7 through databases for possible renters and even have fine/billing software. The great news is they can pull up an address flagged and calculate how many times a home was rented and for how long. It’s awesome!
cjrjck
09-05-2023, 02:56 PM
Yes, let's model The Villages after NYC. I mean that's why we all moved here anyway, right?
tophcfa
09-05-2023, 03:07 PM
I would be totally in favor of those regulations, especially no rentals shorter than 30 days. With county commissioners elections coming up, hopefully each candidate will be asked to take a position on their willingness to support such regulations. A candidate’s stance on restricting short term rentals would definitely influence who I would be willing to vote for.
Maker
09-05-2023, 03:39 PM
How would the developer rent for a week, and also be on premises at the same time?
Something tells me that restriction won't ever happen here.
Normal
09-05-2023, 03:49 PM
How would the developer rent for a week, and also be on premises at the same time?
Something tells me that restriction won't ever happen here.
Apples and Oranges. The Developer is a business with a business license in the business of selling products as an end result. They aren’t in the mode of renting, but with the purpose to sell. In addition, the houses they rent for the lifestyle experience, were never sold to a private entity. They “developed” empty land that has never been sold as improved yet. Therefore they haven’t been transitioned legally to residential.
Either way though, the Developer isn’t the entire population of the county. If the people of the county don’t like the STRs, regulations can be made to make the situation better.
Bogie Shooter
09-05-2023, 04:38 PM
Just add wokeism……..and the state will take care of it.:duck:
tophcfa
09-05-2023, 04:59 PM
Just add wokeism……..and the state will take care of it.:duck:
wokeism definitely comes into play. It happens when Village’s homeowners are WOKEN up by noise from inconsiderate short term renters in the vicinity of their homes.
Randall55
09-05-2023, 06:02 PM
Using special software, the companies use short-term rental listings and other public records to identify short-term rental addresses and owners. These are then matched up with a city’s records to see which rentals are out of compliance or whether operators are dodging tax obligations.
Host Compliance, LTAS Technologies and STR Helper all do a great job looking 24/7 through databases for possible renters and even have fine/billing software. The great news is they can pull up an address flagged and calculate how many times a home was rented and for how long. It’s awesome!That was my point. Features are already in place. No need for a special enforcement team. I doubt the software can catch people who rent less than 30 days on and off. Neighbors reporting would help.
BrianL99
09-05-2023, 06:26 PM
NYC has incorporated some great regulations to get a handle on VERBOs and AirBnBs. It’s a 5,000 dollar fine for getting caught without a license and none can be rented less than 30 days. When will we get something like that in The Villages? It would be a great way to get a handle on the STR problem.
Thousands of Airbnb listings in NYC face removal amid backlog: report (https://nypost.com/2023/09/04/thousands-of-airbnb-listings-in-nyc-face-removal-amid-backlog-report/)
Every time the issue of Short Term Rentals comes up, all the Lawyer wannabees who have stayed at a Holiday Inn, come out of the woodwork.
Why not read some of the previous threads?
If you did, you would find the PURSUANT TO STATE LAW, city, towns & counties in Florida, can not regulate STR's.
Here you go:
In 2011, then-Gov. Rick Scott signed legislation that prohibited local governments from enacting any new law that restricted the use of vacation rentals, prohibited those rentals, or otherwise regulated them, giving that power to the state government.
That law “grandfathered” some 75 local ordinances already on the books, meaning they could remain in force. After pushback from cities, the Legislature reversed itself in 2014, allowing local governments to handle problems including noise, parking, and trash, but still preventing them from prohibiting or regulating the duration or frequency of short-vacation rentals.
FL Senate approves new short-term rentals law; “… the tool he’s giving the counties are a pair of handcuffs” | Florida | islandernews.com (https://www.islandernews.com/news/florida/fl-senate-approves-new-short-term-rentals-law-the-tool-he-s-giving-the-counties/article_91c025be-e60d-11ed-9164-9bb40e9afd1f.html)
Velvet
09-05-2023, 07:30 PM
I would be totally in favor of those regulations, especially no rentals shorter than 30 days. With county commissioners elections coming up, hopefully each candidate will be asked to take a position on their willingness to support such regulations. A candidate’s stance on restricting short term rentals would definitely influence who I would be willing to vote for.
Exactly!
Velvet
09-05-2023, 07:31 PM
Every time the issue of Short Term Rentals comes up, all the Lawyer wannabees who have stayed at a Holiday, come out of the woodwork.
Why not read some of the previous threads?
If you did, you would find the PURSUANT TO STATE LAW, city, towns & counties in Florida, can not regulate STR's.
Here you go:
In 2011, then-Gov. Rick Scott signed legislation that prohibited local governments from enacting any new law that restricted the use of vacation rentals, prohibited those rentals, or otherwise regulated them, giving that power to the state government.
That law “grandfathered” some 75 local ordinances already on the books, meaning they could remain in force. After pushback from cities, the Legislature reversed itself in 2014, allowing local governments to handle problems including noise, parking, and trash, but still preventing them from prohibiting or regulating the duration or frequency of short-vacation rentals.
FL Senate approves new short-term rentals law; “… the tool he’s giving the counties are a pair of handcuffs” | Florida | islandernews.com (https://www.islandernews.com/news/florida/fl-senate-approves-new-short-term-rentals-law-the-tool-he-s-giving-the-counties/article_91c025be-e60d-11ed-9164-9bb40e9afd1f.html)
And they can be “ungrandfathered” that’s the beauty of democracy. It is an organic process.
Normal
09-05-2023, 07:38 PM
And they can be “ungrandfathered” that’s the beauty of democracy. It is an organic process.
And they can always be regulated by local authorities.
Bill14564
09-05-2023, 07:41 PM
And they can always be regulated by local authorities.
Local authorities are limited by state law. Read post #20 and the Florida statutes.
Randall55
09-05-2023, 11:00 PM
Every time the issue of Short Term Rentals comes up, all the Lawyer wannabees who have stayed at a Holiday, come out of the woodwork.
Why not read some of the previous threads?
If you did, you would find the PURSUANT TO STATE LAW, city, towns & counties in Florida, can not regulate STR's.
Here you go:
In 2011, then-Gov. Rick Scott signed legislation that prohibited local governments from enacting any new law that restricted the use of vacation rentals, prohibited those rentals, or otherwise regulated them, giving that power to the state government.
That law “grandfathered” some 75 local ordinances already on the books, meaning they could remain in force. After pushback from cities, the Legislature reversed itself in 2014, allowing local governments to handle problems including noise, parking, and trash, but still preventing them from prohibiting or regulating the duration or frequency of short-vacation rentals.
FL Senate approves new short-term rentals law; “… the tool he’s giving the counties are a pair of handcuffs” | Florida | islandernews.com (https://www.islandernews.com/news/florida/fl-senate-approves-new-short-term-rentals-law-the-tool-he-s-giving-the-counties/article_91c025be-e60d-11ed-9164-9bb40e9afd1f.html) I am not a lawyer wannabee but I do know new laws can be written, old laws can be modified or thrown out, and laws standing can be fought in a court of law. Anyone can place a bill into action. If it gets unanimous votes in Congress, it becomes a law. Welcome to our democracy where laws change all the time.
BrianL99
09-06-2023, 05:09 AM
I am not a lawyer wannabee but I do know new laws can be written, old laws can be modified or thrown out, and laws standing can be fought in a court of law. Anyone can place a bill into action. If it gets unanimous votes in Congress, it becomes a law. Welcome to our democracy where laws change all the time.
Do your research. Bills have been filed in the FL Legislature every year, to modify the STR laws & regulations. Most of them don't even make it to a vote.
The Florida Legislature is overwhelmingly Republican. Most STR's are investor owned and generate huge revenue for the State. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand why the law isn't going to change, anytime soon.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 05:21 AM
Do your research. Bills have been filed in the FL Legislature every year, to modify the STR laws & regulations. Most of them don't even make it to a vote.
The Florida Legislature is overwhelmingly Republican. Most STR's are investor owned and generate huge revenue for the State. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand why the law isn't going to change, anytime soon. I did not put a time stamp on it. But, I do see Miami and Orlando fighting to get Air BNBs eliminated. They cost cities money while a few line their wallets. Once those cities fight, Air BNB is history in Florida. We are a state that relies on a tourist economy. Pretty sure many wish and will fight so this does not change.
kitnhead
09-06-2023, 05:33 AM
Funny how many people support capitalism until feathers are ruffled in their neighborhood.
Right. I’m trying to figure out what the problem is in the first place. How is renting an Air BnB different from a lifestyle visit? Let’s face it, only old people are interested in coming here to visit.
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 05:42 AM
Right. I’m trying to figure out what the problem is in the first place. How is renting an Air BnB different from a lifestyle visit? Let’s face it, only old people are interested in coming here to visit.
If only. Read the other threads on this subject and posts from those that live next door to one. 15 year olds running amok, drunken parties until 4 AM, cars parked blocking neighbors driveways, litter thrown all over the place. An Airbnb in TV is a lot cheaper than staying at a Disney hotel, so bring your kids and teens, trash the neighborhood, who cares?
A lifestyle visit is for eligible buyers usually 55+, not spring break.
Blackbird45
09-06-2023, 05:46 AM
I owned a co-op in New York and the HOA had a rule that I could not rent it out for less than 3 months at a time.
We did end up with two tenants that rented the apartment on a yearly basis.
That was over 15 years ago.
I'm sure there is a way that The Villages can set some type of standard without jumping through to many legal hoops.
Maybe laying out a rule for any new home buyer and having to grandfather any existing owner who uses the property as a rental.
TeresaE
09-06-2023, 05:50 AM
NYC has incorporated some great regulations to get a handle on VERBOs and AirBnBs. It’s a 5,000 dollar fine for getting caught without a license and none can be rented less than 30 days. When will we get something like that in The Villages? It would be a great way to get a handle on the STR problem.
Thousands of Airbnb listings in NYC face removal amid backlog: report (https://nypost.com/2023/09/04/thousands-of-airbnb-listings-in-nyc-face-removal-amid-backlog-report/)
There are Florida state laws that regulate short term rentals, but they mainly address the definition of a STR and business registration and taxes. Florida law allows cities and counties the ability to promulgate their own regulations. The City of St Augusta has done that. I’m not sure how successful their regulations have been, but it’s a place to start for researching enacting regulations in The Villages. I’m not sure if I can link to the City’s website, but those interested can google it. One more piece of unsolicited advice, do not suggest, mention or allude to anything similar to NY, California or anywhere beside Florida for suggestions on STRs in Florida. You won’t get past Go if you do. That’s just a reality. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 05:58 AM
Right. I’m trying to figure out what the problem is in the first place. How is renting an Air BnB different from a lifestyle visit? Let’s face it, only old people are interested in coming here to visit.¹Just like NYC (and many other cities around thé world), Florida relies on a tourist economy. It is the reason there is no state income tax. AirBNBs cost cities money and jeopardizes the taxes that need to be collected. A minority of people are lining their wallets at the expense of the majority. Not certain if Lifestyle Visit is different than an AirBNB. But, some people are using it as an excuse. "If so and so does it, then I can too!". 40,000 Air BNB rentals just went kaput in NYC. I expect the trend will follow throughout the world. With no warning, their means of making money is eliminated. It will be interesting to see if AIRBNB or Investment property owners fight this in court.
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 06:03 AM
It Just like NYC (and many other cities around thé world), Florida relies on a tourist economy. It is the reason there is no state income tax. AirBNBs cost cities money and jeopardizes the taxes that need to be collected. A minority of people are lining their wallets at the expense of the majority. Not certain if Lifestyle Visit is different than an AirBNB. But, some people are using it as an excuse. "If so and so does it, then I can too!". 40,000 Air BBB rentals just went kaput in NYC. I expect the trend will follow throughout the world. With no warning, their means of making money is eliminated. It will be interesting to see if AIRBNB or Investment property owners fights this in court.
Just one question: What does a tourist economy (primarily out of state visitors) have to do with state income taxes which are imposed upon residents of that state????
And of course, NYC has a very high income tax----you not only pay the state, you pay the city as well. And even if you don't live in the 5 boroughs, you pay almost the same as a "commuter" tax.
ithos
09-06-2023, 06:12 AM
Is STR only a concern south of 44? That has never been an issue in my area.
When did this start to become a problem in TV?
Normal
09-06-2023, 06:13 AM
Local authorities are limited by state law. Read post #20 and the Florida statutes.
Orlando passed a law requiring the landlord be living in the rental while renting their house out. They also defined maximum safe occupancy.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with requiring the landlord to be in the residence they rent out while their guests are there. It’s legal and makes the landlord 100 percent responsible instead of being an irresponsible leech milking off everyone else’s amenities.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 06:28 AM
11Just one question: What does a tourist economy (primarily out of state visitors) have to do with state income taxes which are imposed upon residents of that state????
And of course, NYC has a very high income tax----you not only pay the state, you pay the city as well. And even if you don't live in the 5 boroughs, you pay almost the same as a "commuter" tax. I have lived in Florida all my life. I have been taught in High School and College that Florida has no state income tax because the state fills all of its needs through the tourist economy. If this fails, then Florida will have to collect a state income tax. It's been 40 years since I studied state and local government. Were all my teachers and professors guessing? Not sure! But, it is where I heard it. I never doubted their word and checked .I also remember quite a few politicians running for office promising to keep the tourist trade hefty to eliminate the need for a state income tax. (Read my lips! No new taxes!) Sorry, that's all I have on the subject. At least I"m honest. BTW, I was always a straight A student.
jojoturf
09-06-2023, 06:29 AM
Sumter should contact Volusia County executives — they instituted a 30 day minimum a few years ago to ward off short term rentals. It seemed to be put in place quickly, can’t be that difficult to roll out.
TeresaE
09-06-2023, 06:29 AM
Every time the issue of Short Term Rentals comes up, all the Lawyer wannabees who have stayed at a Holiday Inn, come out of the woodwork.
Why not read some of the previous threads?
If you did, you would find the PURSUANT TO STATE LAW, city, towns & counties in Florida, can not regulate STR's.
Here you go:
In 2011, then-Gov. Rick Scott signed legislation that prohibited local governments from enacting any new law that restricted the use of vacation rentals, prohibited those rentals, or otherwise regulated them, giving that power to the state government.
That law “grandfathered” some 75 local ordinances already on the books, meaning they could remain in force. After pushback from cities, the Legislature reversed itself in 2014, allowing local governments to handle problems including noise, parking, and trash, but still preventing them from prohibiting or regulating the duration or frequency of short-vacation rentals.
FL Senate approves new short-term rentals law; “… the tool he’s giving the counties are a pair of handcuffs” | Florida | islandernews.com (https://www.islandernews.com/news/florida/fl-senate-approves-new-short-term-rentals-law-the-tool-he-s-giving-the-counties/article_91c025be-e60d-11ed-9164-9bb40e9afd1f.html)
That’s old. Under DeSantis, cities and counties can pass their own regulations. Look to the City if St Augustine as an example. Short Term Rentals | St. Augustine, FL (https://www.citystaug.com/830/Short-Term-Rentals)
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 06:42 AM
That’s old. Under DeSantis, cities and counties can pass their own regulations. Look to the City if St Augustine as an example. Short Term Rentals | St. Augustine, FL (https://www.citystaug.com/830/Short-Term-Rentals)
Please note that the St. Augustine ordinance acknowledges the restrictions of the Florida Statutes and tie the "new" St. Augustine limitations to ordinances that existed prior to 2011.
In other words, that wasn't old news and St. Augustine acknowledges as much.
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 06:46 AM
11 I have lived in Florida all my life. I have been taught in High School and College that Florida has no state income tax because the state fills all of its needs through the tourist economy. If this fails, then Florida will have to collect a state income tax. It's been 40 years since I studied state and local government. We're all my teachers and professors guessing? Not sure! But, it is where I heard it. I never doubted their word and checked .I also remember quite a few politicians running for office promising to keep the tourist trade hefty to eliminate the need for a state income tax. (Read my lips! No new taxes!) Sorry, that's all I have on the subject. At least I"m honest. BTW, I was always a straight A student.
I totally agree with that---the tourism dollars serve to keep our other taxes low and obviates the need for a state income tax. However, Florida had a healthy tourist industry and no income tax long before anyone conceived of an "Airbnb". I doubt stringent STR restrictions will collapse our tourist industry. And if so, Orlando is cutting its own throat with their new regs. Plus, TV is NOT Orlando, Miami, or NYC---we are PRIMARILY a 55+ RETIREMENT community, not a vacation destination---that is unless these cheap STRs go unabated.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 06:51 AM
¹Just like NYC (and many other cities around thé world), Florida relies on a tourist economy. It is the reason there is no state income tax. AirBNBs cost cities money and jeopardizes the taxes that need to be collected. A minority of people are lining their wallets at the expense of the majority. Not certain if Lifestyle Visit is different than an AirBNB. But, some people are using it as an excuse. "If so and so does it, then I can too!". 40,000 Air BNB rentals just went kaput in NYC. I expect the trend will follow throughout the world. With no warning, their means of making money is eliminated. It will be interesting to see if AIRBNB or Investment property owners fight this in court.
1. How do AirBnBs cost cities money? Bringing tourists to town, making them happy with their accommodations, and leaving money in their pocket to spend on the local economy (the reason they came in the first place) hardly seems like costing the city money. If the state runs on tourist dollars then making it more difficult for the tourists to visit seems counterproductive.
2. In what way does allowing someone to stay in a home represent lining your pockets at the expense of others?
To me, rental properties seem to boost the local economy. Tourists come to town and spend money. If they stay in a home in the Villages then the local grocery stores, restaurants, and gas stations get some of their money. If some homes are purchased for rentals, taking them off the market, then more homes need to be built for those who want to live here thus increasing construction activities and associated jobs. Tourists bring money, that was one of your points, why is the money from the short term renter in Sumter county less desirable than the money from the Orlando hotel dweller?
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 06:59 AM
I totally agree with that---the tourism dollars serve to keep our other taxes low and obviates the need for a state income tax. However, Florida had a healthy tourist industry and no income tax long before anyone conceived of an "Airbnb". I doubt stringent STR restrictions will collapse our tourist industry. And if so, Orlando is cutting its own throat with their new regs. Plus, TV is NOT Orlando, Miami, or NYC---we are PRIMARILY a 55+ RETIREMENT community, not a vacation destination---that is unless these cheap STRs go unabated.
I wonder if maybe that is why some believe there is an uptick in rentals here. People will still come to Disney, Universal, and Seaworld regardless of local accommodations. But, if they can't find desirable rooms close then they will travel farther... and bring their wallets with them.
We dread snowbird season with all the people, crowds, and lines but I bet the restaurants don't. I bet the restaurants are happy to have the customers. Orlando may feel it has solved its short term rental "problem" but the local businesses may not be happy about that. I don't know and I'm not going to do the research to find out but I do wonder about it.
MandoMan
09-06-2023, 07:15 AM
NYC has incorporated some great regulations to get a handle on VERBOs and AirBnBs. It’s a 5,000 dollar fine for getting caught without a license and none can be rented less than 30 days. When will we get something like that in The Villages? It would be a great way to get a handle on the STR problem.
Thousands of Airbnb listings in NYC face removal amid backlog: report (https://nypost.com/2023/09/04/thousands-of-airbnb-listings-in-nyc-face-removal-amid-backlog-report/)
We should do that here, too. Better now than after if gets worse. This is from the Sept 5 New York Times article: “ For years, the city has maintained that existing laws preclude people from renting out homes to guests for less than 30 days, unless the host is present during the stay. The city also asserts that no more than two guests are allowed to stay at a time, and that they must have ready access to the entire home. . . . The new regulations, which the city will begin enforcing on Tuesday after a series of court challenges, require hosts to register with the city to be allowed to rent on a short-term basis. . . . In order to collect fees associated with the short-term stays, Airbnb, ****, Booking.com and other companies must check that a host’s registration application has been approved. Starting Tuesday, hosts who violate the rules could face fines of up to $5,000 for repeat offenders, and platforms could be fined up to $1,500 for transactions involving illegal rentals. . . . City officials estimated there were roughly 10,800 Airbnb listings as of March 2023 that were illegal short-term rentals. They have argued that renting those homes to tourists and visitors instead of New Yorkers exacerbates the city’s acute housing shortage and makes it even more expensive to live here. Residents who live in buildings with short-term rentals have complained that transient guests bring a greater risk of crime, excessive noise and cleanliness problems.“
Note that if we had rules like that here, it would not affect monthly or longer rentals. Short term rentals would also be allowed for those coming in for a lifestyle visit, but only if the owners of a home registered the house for that purpose with The Villages. This would have nothing to do with your family coming for a visit. I doubt that this would get passed here, though.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 07:16 AM
I totally agree with that---the tourism dollars serve to keep our other taxes low and obviates the need for a state income tax. However, Florida had a healthy tourist industry and no income tax long before anyone conceived of an "Airbnb". I doubt stringent STR restrictions will collapse our tourist industry. And if so, Orlando is cutting its own throat with their new regs. Plus, TV is NOT Orlando, Miami, or NYC---we are PRIMARILY a 55+ RETIREMENT community, not a vacation destination---that is unless these cheap STRs go unabated. I agree. The Villages is probably not going to be the major fighter to stop STRs. But, if larger cities like Miami and Orlando do fight against them, it will probably follow suit here and throughout Florida. We are an hour or two from Orlando, Daytona, Tampa, St Augustine, Jacksonville, Pensacola, and Destin. Our location makes it very attractive for investors. Some politicians may decide controlling STRs here is a necessity. I can see it happening and will not be surprised if it does.
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 07:17 AM
1. How do AirBnBs cost cities money? Bringing tourists to town, making them happy with their accommodations, and leaving money in their pocket to spend on the local economy (the reason they came in the first place) hardly seems like costing the city money. If the state runs on tourist dollars then making it more difficult for the tourists to visit seems counterproductive.
2. In what way does allowing someone to stay in a home represent lining your pockets at the expense of others?
To me, rental properties seem to boost the local economy. Tourists come to town and spend money. If they stay in a home in the Villages then the local grocery stores, restaurants, and gas stations get some of their money. If some homes are purchased for rentals, taking them off the market, then more homes need to be built for those who want to live here thus increasing construction activities and associated jobs. Tourists bring money, that was one of your points, why is the money from the short term renter in Sumter county less desirable than the money from the Orlando hotel dweller?
You didn't really ask that, did you????? The Orlando "hotel dweller" doesn't have NEIGHBORS in a 55+ RETIREMENT COMMUNITY. They don't block neighbors driveways, if the let their teens run wild it isn't on a neighbor's property, and they are staying in a hotel---a building and area specifically designed for vacation stays.
Full disclosure---do you own a STR???
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 07:21 AM
I agree. The Villages is probably not going to fight STRs. But, if larger cities like Miami and Orlando do fight against them, it will probably follow suit here and throughout Florida. We are an hour or two from Orlando, Daytona, Tampa, St Augustine, Jacksonville, Pensacola, and Destin. Our location makes it very attractive for investors. Some politicians may decide controlling STRs here is a necessity. I can see it happening and will not be surprised if it does.
I think it would take a revision of state law to pave the way for local restrictions on STRs. I also think that if the developer really wanted these restrictions, we would have them, starting with enforcement of the existing laws/rules/restrictions. I would hope they take the long term view like Harold Schwarts and Gary Morse and decide if they want The Villages known as a premier 55+ retirement destination, or a motel shantytown.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 07:25 AM
IYou didn't really ask that, did you????? The Orlando "hotel dweller" doesn't have NEIGHBORS in a 55+ RETIREMENT COMMUNITY. They don't block neighbors driveways, if the let their teens run wild it isn't on a neighbor's property, and they are staying in a hotel---a building and area specifically designed for vacation stays.
Full disclosure---do you own a STR??? In addition to what was said above, the Strs are taking customers away from hotels/motels. Businesses that legitimantly collect sales tax and send it to the state of Florida. Do all STRs have the required license? Do they collect and send the sales tax to Florida? Maybe some do. It is those who do not that are causing the state a problem.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 07:47 AM
You didn't really ask that, did you????? The Orlando "hotel dweller" doesn't have NEIGHBORS in a 55+ RETIREMENT COMMUNITY. They don't block neighbors driveways, if the let their teens run wild it isn't on a neighbor's property, and they are staying in a hotel---a building and area specifically designed for vacation stays.
Full disclosure---do you own a STR???
If the hotel dweller did come to visit and blocked a driveway would that be okay since he was not a short term renter? If a child comes to visit their parents in the Villages and blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? If I have a card party at my house and a fulltime resident blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? Is the problem the short term renter status or is the problem the blocking of the driveway? If it's the former then let's get rid of the renters but if it's the latter then let's stop others from blocking driveways regardless of their reason for being here.
Take the rest of the alleged transgressions and fit them into the above paragraph. My answer is the same - the transgressions are transgressions regardless of the status of the person committing them.
I am skeptical of the widespread problems from renters. I've seen some pretty large numbers of rental properties claimed. If thousands of renters are causing problems there would be more than a few people complaining here on ToTV. I believe some renters do cause issues. I believe some fulltime neighbors cause issues. I know some snowbirds cause issues. Personally, getting rid of the snowbirds would improve my life much more than getting rid of the renters - who do I talk to about that?
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 07:51 AM
If the hotel dweller did come to visit and blocked a driveway would that be okay since he was not a short term renter? If a child comes to visit their parents in the Villages and blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? If I have a card party at my house and a fulltime resident blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? Is the problem the short term renter status or is the problem the blocking of the driveway? If it's the former then let's get rid of the renters but if it's the latter then let's stop others from blocking driveways regardless of their reason for being here.
Take the rest of the alleged transgressions and fit them into the above paragraph. My answer is the same - the transgressions are transgressions regardless of the status of the person committing them.
I am skeptical of the widespread problems from renters. I've seen some pretty large numbers of rental properties claimed. If thousands of renters are causing problems there would be more than a few people complaining here on ToTV. I believe some renters do cause issues. I believe some fulltime neighbors cause issues. I know some snowbirds cause issues. Personally, getting rid of the snowbirds would improve my life much more than getting rid of the renters - who do I talk to about that?
Please let us know the next time that someone staying in an Orlando hotel drives to TV and parks in front of your driveway. Meanwhile, let's ask the Villagers who live next to a STR how often that happens, as well as the kids, late night parties and litter.
More and more you sound like the owner of STR(s)
merrymini
09-06-2023, 07:56 AM
Attack, attack, attack, renters, snowbirds etc. Attack, lawfully, only people who behave badly, regardless of who they are to prevent bad behavior. People have lost consideration and regard for others and we have also lost the rule of law. This will be a long ride now.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 07:56 AM
Please let us know the next time that someone staying in an Orlando hotel drives to TV and parks in front of your driveway. Meanwhile, let's ask the Villagers who live next to a STR how often that happens, as well as the kids, late night parties and litter.
More and more you sound like the owner of STR(s)
I will let you know the next time ANYONE parks in front of my driveway though I don't know that I will ask them for ID or information on where they are staying.
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 07:59 AM
Is STR only a concern south of 44? That has never been an issue in my area.
When did this start to become a problem in TV?
It wasn’t a problem in my neighborhood either, until one day it was. A woman who had no idea about being a landlord started running an AirBNB from her home and the results weren’t good for the neighborhood. Fortunately for our neighborhood, she met a guy and moved away to live with him. Nobody in our neighborhood was sad to see here go.
BrianL99
09-06-2023, 08:00 AM
There are Florida state laws that regulate short term rentals, but they mainly address the definition of a STR and business registration and taxes. Florida law allows cities and counties the ability to promulgate their own regulations. ....
One more piece of unsolicited advice, do not suggest, mention or allude to anything similar to NY, California or anywhere beside Florida for suggestions on STRs in Florida. You won’t get past Go if you do. That’s just a reality. Don’t shoot the messenger.
The Messenger is wrong.
I tried to make it as simple as possible and posted the language and a link.
Perhaps you should consider clicking the Link I posted in Post #20?
Its publication date is April 28, 2023.
The Information is current.
The Law has not changed.
Every year there are bills in the Legislature, to change most every law on the Florida books. A tiny percentage make it to a vote and a few get passed into law. No Amendment to the Short Term Rental Laws have made it through the Legislature since 2014.
Anyone who would like to wager, I'm in. State Control of Short Term Rentals in Florida will never end. Florida is a tourism state, why would they allow the crackers in mid-Florida to interfere with the state's #1 income generator?
MSGirl
09-06-2023, 08:01 AM
NYC has incorporated some great regulations to get a handle on VERBOs and AirBnBs. It’s a 5,000 dollar fine for getting caught without a license and none can be rented less than 30 days. When will we get something like that in The Villages? It would be a great way to get a handle on the STR problem.
Thousands of Airbnb listings in NYC face removal amid backlog: report (https://nypost.com/2023/09/04/thousands-of-airbnb-listings-in-nyc-face-removal-amid-backlog-report/)
We are not in NYC.
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 08:03 AM
Attack, attack, attack, renters, snowbirds etc. Attack, lawfully, only people who behave badly, regardless of who they are to prevent bad behavior. People have lost consideration and regard for others and we have also lost the rule of law. This will be a long ride now.
Nice thought and would probably apply in a perfect world, however........
Which type of rental do you think is more likely (by far) to lead to so called "bad behavior"? (you may pick 2)
1) a 58 year old married couple renting for 3 months to see if they want to retire here
2) a group of 6 20 somethings renting for 5 days to use TV as a home base for hitting Disney, our pools and our amenities
3) a family of 6 with children aged 12,14,15, and 16 renting because it is cheaper here.
ithos
09-06-2023, 08:04 AM
If the hotel dweller did come to visit and blocked a driveway would that be okay since he was not a short term renter? If a child comes to visit their parents in the Villages and blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? If I have a card party at my house and a fulltime resident blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? Is the problem the short term renter status or is the problem the blocking of the driveway? If it's the former then let's get rid of the renters but if it's the latter then let's stop others from blocking driveways regardless of their reason for being here.
Take the rest of the alleged transgressions and fit them into the above paragraph. My answer is the same - the transgressions are transgressions regardless of the status of the person committing them.
I am skeptical of the widespread problems from renters. I've seen some pretty large numbers of rental properties claimed. If thousands of renters are causing problems there would be more than a few people complaining here on ToTV. I believe some renters do cause issues. I believe some fulltime neighbors cause issues. I know some snowbirds cause issues. Personally, getting rid of the snowbirds would improve my life much more than getting rid of the renters - who do I talk to about that?
I could not disagree more about the snowbirds. I live next door to a couple that is here for only 5 months a year and it is great. If there were no snowbirds then you would have winter like traffic all year round.
I have never met one that I believe wouldn't make a great next door neighbor.
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 08:09 AM
I think it would take a revision of state law to pave the way for local restrictions on STRs. I also think that if the developer really wanted these restrictions, we would have them, starting with enforcement of the existing laws/rules/restrictions. I would hope they take the long term view like Harold Schwarts and Gary Morse and decide if they want The Villages known as a premier 55+ retirement destination, or a motel shantytown.
Bingo! The fastest way to have local restrictions put into place, and be enforced, would be for a large number of potential buyers of new homes to clearly communicate to their Properties of the Villages sales representative that they are not interested in buying into pseudo 55+ retirement community that is being watered down and changed by short term rentals.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 08:17 AM
I could not disagree more about the snowbirds. I live next door to a couple that is here for only 5 months a year and it is great. If there were no snowbirds then you would have winter like traffic all year round.
Or there would be summer traffic all year round.
I have never met one that I believe wouldn't make a great next door neighbor.
Neither have I but I have also never met a renter who wouldn't make a great next door neighbor. On the other hand, there have been next door neighbors who weren't that great.
If someone is causing a problem, deal with the someone to fix the problem. There are noise ordinances and parking ordinances and certainly trespassing ordinances so use them. For the most part, this is a pretty sleepy area - give the police something to do.
Regorp
09-06-2023, 08:21 AM
NYC has incorporated some great regulations to get a handle on VERBOs and AirBnBs. It’s a 5,000 dollar fine for getting caught without a license and none can be rented less than 30 days. When will we get something like that in The Villages? It would be a great way to get a handle on the STR problem.
Thousands of Airbnb listings in NYC face removal amid backlog: report (https://nypost.com/2023/09/04/thousands-of-airbnb-listings-in-nyc-face-removal-amid-backlog-report/)
TV has let this get out of control here. They should enforce the minimum rental period to one week, not overnight, not a weekend. TV is a retirement community, not a resort or hotel
Randall55
09-06-2023, 08:45 AM
If the hotel dweller did come to visit and blocked a driveway would that be okay since he was not a short term renter? If a child comes to visit their parents in the Villages and blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? If I have a card party at my house and a fulltime resident blocks a driveway is that okay because they are not a short term renter? Is the problem the short term renter status or is the problem the blocking of the driveway? If it's the former then let's get rid of the renters but if it's the latter then let's stop others from blocking driveways regardless of their reason for being here.
Take the rest of the alleged transgressions and fit them into the above paragraph. My answer is the same - the transgressions are transgressions regardless of the status of the person committing them.
I am skeptical of the widespread problems from renters. I've seen some pretty large numbers of rental properties claimed. If thousands of renters are causing problems there would be more than a few people complaining here on ToTV. I believe some renters do cause issues. I believe some fulltime neighbors cause issues. I know some snowbirds cause issues. Personally, getting rid of the snowbirds would improve my life much more than getting rid of the renters - who do I talk to about that? I highly doubt the lawmakers in NYC and in other areas around the world (yes, WORLD) were concerned about driveway traffic when they wrote new laws that limit STRs. At this point, It is you against the world. I wonder who is going to win.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 09:08 AM
I highly doubt the lawmakers in NYC and in other areas around the world (yes, WORLD) were concerned about driveway traffic when they wrote new laws that limit STRs. At this point, It is you against the world. I wonder who is going to win.
I am vocal but nearly alone. As another has pointed out, proposals are made every year to weaken the Florida law but they have not been successful yet.
ron32162
09-06-2023, 09:12 AM
Yea right all states need to follow how N.Y is run
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 09:17 AM
TV has let this get out of control here. They should enforce the minimum rental period to one week, not overnight, not a weekend. TV is a retirement community, not a resort or hotel
Is it out of control? There have been a few issues and a few more complaining but there are thousands of rental properties. If things were out of control I would expect more than a few issues.
I have rented for a short term though they called it a Lifestyle Visit at the time. As a short term renter I take some of these comments personally. There have been hundreds (thousands?) of these visits but have there been hundreds of problems?
As for a time limit on rental periods, see post #20.
Maker
09-06-2023, 09:23 AM
TV has let this get out of control here. They should enforce the minimum rental period to one week, not overnight, not a weekend. TV is a retirement community, not a resort or hotel
That time restriction would be against state law.
Prior posts have links to the law.
Anything people propose restricting STRs would directly impact Morse because the Lifestyle Visit is a STR program. That's not happening.
Joe C.
09-06-2023, 09:44 AM
Just what we need.......another law telling you what you can and can't do with your property. We have too many laws regulating too many things and our freedoms are being choked to death.
On the other hand, if a house is being rented continuously, it should be considered "commercial" and if it's in a residential zoned area, it should be bought to the owner's attention. I feel for those who are affected by inconsiderate renters, but we don't need LAWS. They stifle our FREEDOM.
golfing eagles
09-06-2023, 09:46 AM
Just what we need.......another law telling you what you can and can't do with your property. We have too many laws regulating too many things and our freedoms are being choked to death.
On the other hand, if a house is being rented continuously, it should be considered "commercial" and if it's in a residential zoned area, it should be bought to the owner's attention. I feel for those who are affected by inconsiderate renters, but we don't need LAWS. They stifle our FREEDOM.
I hate too many laws as well. But in this case, without force of law, all you can do about a revolving door motel next door to you is use harsh language
Vermilion Villager
09-06-2023, 10:06 AM
That was my point. Features are already in place. No need for a special enforcement team. I doubt the software can catch people who rent less than 30 days on and off. Neighbors reporting would help.
Do something like Texas and Florida do on another topic. Allow citizens to sue the violater for up to $10,000.:pepper2:
ithos
09-06-2023, 10:31 AM
I remember one time in the late 80's I parked my personal pickup in a South Florida condo and was left a note that they were not allowed. Next time it would be towed.
If they allow rules like that then what restrictions can't they impose.
Joe C.
09-06-2023, 11:02 AM
....or some serious intimidation.
Sandy and Ed
09-06-2023, 12:57 PM
This banter back-and-forth is great, but can we at least agree that no permanent resident Of The Villages wants to see this become a community of short term rentals
BrianL99
09-06-2023, 12:57 PM
I hate too many laws as well. But in this case, without force of law, all you can do about a revolving door motel next door to you is use harsh language
At the risk of scaring people, by suggesting they use some common sense and be true to their likely political leanings (given TV is about 75% Republican) ....
The Republican mantra has historically been: "less government is better government".
As is the case with most things in life, Short Term Rentals exist in a cycle and are self-limiting.
Once there are enough Short Term Rentals to meet demand, investors will stop buying them. I know folks think that everyone in the world wants to live or vacation in TV, but that's simply not true. Based on what I've seen over the last year, the saturation point is close. There always seems to be units available for short term rental and for investors, that doesn't work. Most of them need to maintain high occupancy. Also, the current interest rates aren't conducive to buying for Investment.
It's unlikely the TV will turn into an STR playground. In the meantime, enjoy the property value appreciation the STR market has provided.
Also, I think it's inevitable that TV/CDD will at some point, step in and exercise more control over Guest Passes. That would be a very simple process, that would take away a lot of the STR pain.
BrianL99
09-06-2023, 01:01 PM
This banter back-and-forth is great, but can we at least agree that no permanent resident Of The Villages wants to see this become a community of short term rentals
No.
Villagers want it both ways.
They want to complain about "renters" & "snow birds", but can't wait to talk about their increasing property value/equity in their home. All of which is driven by the demand created by renters & snow birds.
Vermilion Villager
09-06-2023, 01:12 PM
At the risk of scaring people, by suggesting they use some common sense and be true to their likely political leanings (given TV is about 75% Republican) ....
The Republican mantra has historically been: "less government is better government".
As is the case with most things in life, Short Term Rentals exist in a cycle and are self-limiting.
Once there are enough Short Term Rentals to meet demand, investors will stop buying them. I know folks think that everyone in the world wants to live or vacation in TV, but that's simply not true. Based on what I've seen over the last year, the saturation point is close. There always seems to be units available for short term rental and for investors, that doesn't work. Most of them need to maintain high occupancy. Also, the current interest rates aren't conducive to buying for Investment.
It's unlikely the TV will turn into an STR playground. In the meantime, enjoy the property value appreciation the STR market has provided.
Also, I think it's inevitable that TV/CDD will at some point, step in and exercise more control over Guest Passes. That would be a very simple process, that would take away a lot of the STR pain.
WOW!!!! you win the award for making ANY topic political!!! :eclipsee_gold_cup:
FYI....Trickle down economics was also a republican thing. After 40 years we all see how well that one worked!!!
Velvet
09-06-2023, 01:17 PM
Is it out of control? There have been a few issues and a few more complaining but there are thousands of rental properties. If things were out of control I would expect more than a few issues.
I have rented for a short term though they called it a Lifestyle Visit at the time. As a short term renter I take some of these comments personally. There have been hundreds (thousands?) of these visits but have there been hundreds of problems?
As for a time limit on rental periods, see post #20.
Yes, it is out of control. I have been coming to TV to visit parents for 30 years etc and now have a home here and yes the rental business is out of control. YOU may be aware of only a few issues, but that is only your situation. Lifestyle is run by the sales for the developer it is not in the same CATEGORY as the STRs we are talking about. You are welcome to a Lifestyles visit. The other types of STR you can take personally.
Velvet
09-06-2023, 01:19 PM
That time restriction would be against state law.
Prior posts have links to the law.
Anything people propose restricting STRs would directly impact Morse because the Lifestyle Visit is a STR program. That's not happening.
Time to change the state law then.
cjrjck
09-06-2023, 01:19 PM
No.
Villagers want it both ways.
They want to complain about "renters" & "snow birds", but can't wait to talk about their increasing property value/equity in their home. All of which is driven by the demand created by renters & snow birds.
Agree. I sort of find it funny to see rants about STRs on this forum when this very website in another forum lists STRs (real estate section).
Velvet
09-06-2023, 01:22 PM
Agree. I sort of find it funny to see rants about STRs on this forum when this very website in another forum lists STRs (real estate section).
There are priorities and “the Villagers” in general, prioritize their life style over increased value of their homes. Of course people like more equity, but not at the cost of suffering for it everyday. The snowbirds own property and they are residents they just don’t happen to be here all the time. In some ways they are the exact opposite of short term renters. And we are talking about short term renters. So what exactly are you finding funny?
Vermilion Villager
09-06-2023, 01:27 PM
This banter back-and-forth is great, but can we at least agree that no permanent resident Of The Villages wants to see this become a community of short term rentals
Aah.....GREED!!!!!!!:beer3:
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 01:27 PM
This banter back-and-forth is great, but can we at least agree that no permanent resident Of The Villages wants to see this become a community of short term rentals
Unfortunately, while I believe most will agree with the statement I suspect there will be no consensus on what constitutes "a community of short term rentals." To some, we've already passed that point while others have yet to see a short term rental in their neighborhood.
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 01:36 PM
This banter back-and-forth is great, but can we at least agree that no permanent resident Of The Villages wants to see this become a community of short term rentals
Totally agree.
No.
Villagers want it both ways.
They want to complain about "renters" & "snow birds", but can't wait to talk about their increasing property value/equity in their home. All of which is driven by the demand created by renters & snow birds.
Totally disagree. First, short term rentals and snowbirds are two mutually exclusive things. This thread is about short term rentals. Second, I don’t want it both ways, I don’t like short term renters (or the inconsiderate landlords that are jamming them down our throats) and I don’t want my property values to increase. I’m not selling my home, so increased property values only mean increased taxes and homeowners insurance premiums. Why would I want that?
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 01:37 PM
Yes, it is out of control. I have been coming to TV to visit parents for 30 years etc and now have a home here and yes the rental business is out of control. YOU may be aware of only a few issues, but that is only your situation. Lifestyle is run by the sales for the developer it is not in the same CATEGORY as the STRs we are talking about. You are welcome to a Lifestyles visit. The other types of STR you can take personally.
Lifestyle is a short term rental. It is a rental, it is for less than a week, it is a short term rental. Are you really proposing a law that says something to the effect that the Developer has the right to rent out property in the area but no other homeowner does? Some would argue the Developer enjoys enough special treatment as it is.
*I* am only aware of the issues that have been raised on this forum. Since it doesn't seem like many are holding back on listing their grievances I can only assume that there are only a few actual issues.
I find it hard to believe that a particular homeowner is soliciting for renters with bad behavior such that everyone that rents that particular home causes a problem. I certainly *can* believe that occasionally a bad renter comes through. I wouldn't wish that on anyone but the concern that at some point in time someone in one of the several thousand homes might have a party or park in the street doesn't seem like a good reason to penalize all those who want to make some money off their property or who want to visit the area.
And again, if someone is violating the noise ordinance or parking ordinance or trespassing laws then by all means, get the police involved. It doesn't matter if it is a fulltime resident, snowbird, renter, child, grandchild, or guest.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 01:38 PM
Time to change the state law then.
Other posts have already noted that attempts to weaken the law are filed every year.
Velvet
09-06-2023, 01:40 PM
Lifestyle is a short term rental. It is a rental, it is for less than a week, it is a short term rental. Are you really proposing a law that says something to the effect that the Developer has the right to rent out property in the area but no other homeowner does? Some would argue the Developer enjoys enough special treatment as it is.
*I* am only aware of the issues that have been raised on this forum. Since it doesn't seem like many are holding back on listing their grievances I can only assume that there are only a few actual issues.
I find it hard to believe that a particular homeowner is soliciting for renters with bad behavior such that everyone that rents that particular home causes a problem. I certainly *can* believe that occasionally a bad renter comes through. I wouldn't wish that on anyone but the concern that at some point in time someone in one of the several thousand homes might have a party or park in the street doesn't seem like a good reason to penalize all those who want to make some money off their property or who want to visit the area.
And again, if someone is violating the noise ordinance or parking ordinance or trespassing laws then by all means, get the police involved. It doesn't matter if it is a fulltime resident, snowbird, renter, child, grandchild, or guest.
Yes, it is different. The Lifestyle is run well and monitored carefully - I did it before buying here. Do not try to confuse the issue by obfuscating the term Short Term Rental. They are not all alike.
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 01:47 PM
Yes, it is different. The Lifestyle is run well and monitored carefully - I did it before buying here. Do not try to confuse the issue by obfuscating the term Short Term Rental. They are not all alike.
It has become painfully obvious that there are a couple posters on this topic who are short term rental landlords who are making a lame attempt to justify their neighborhood disrupting actions.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 02:01 PM
Yes, it is different. The Lifestyle is run well and monitored carefully - I did it before buying here. Do not try to confuse the issue by obfuscating the term Short Term Rental. They are not all alike.
How is the way it is run and monitored different than an airBnB or ****? I know what I was asked for before staying at any of the three and the airBnB required more documentation from me. In none of the three did I notice any minders standing outside making sure I was dressed properly before leaving the home. You can insist that it is different but the only real difference is the name on the business collecting the rents.
Sure, you've never seen or heard of a problem with one of the Lifestyle homes. I'll bet the same can be said of 90+% of the homes rented as airBnB. I'm honestly interested in how many people on here have personal experience with consistently bad renters in their neighborhood and how many are arguing over something they have never experienced.
BrianL99
09-06-2023, 02:25 PM
It has become painfully obvious that there are a couple posters on this topic who are short term rental landlords who are making a lame attempt to justify their neighborhood disrupting actions.
I don't know about "lame excuses", but I'm sure there are people on this site who own STR's. After all, STR owners are likely younger, more sophisticated and see the wisdom in keeping up with TV issues.
The Villages demographic is fascinating, in it's consistency. The younger, more sophisticated and savvy folks seem to be the new comers down south. The middle of TV seems to have a lot of successful folks, fairly new to retirement. By the time you get to the Northern/Historic area, you have the much older folks who moved to TV when it wasn't much more than a trailer park. These people seem to want the world to return to the way it was in 70's and they rail against anything new, while they bemoan the passing of the "good old days", when Harold Schwartz roamed Spanish Springs.
rustyp
09-06-2023, 02:43 PM
I don't know about "lame excuses", but I'm sure there are people on this site who own STR's. After all, STR owners are likely younger, more sophisticated and see the wisdom in keeping up with TV issues.
The Villages demographic is fascinating, in it's consistency. The younger, more sophisticated and savvy folks seem to be the new comers down south. The middle of TV seems to have a lot of successful folks, fairly new to retirement. By the time you get to the Northern/Historic area, you have the much older folks who moved to TV when it wasn't much more than a trailer park. These people seem to want the world to return to the way it was in 70's and they rail against anything new, while they bemoan the passing of the "good old days", when Harold Schwartz roamed Spanish Springs.
Out of perspective curiosity where do you live Brian ?
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 03:12 PM
After all, STR owners are likely younger, more sophisticated and savvy folks who see the wisdom in keeping up with TV issues.
Bull$#@&! It appears as though both a STR landlord and a “legend in his own mind” has stepped forward. I guess the rest of us are merely a bunch of old and unsophisticated folks with no savvy or wisdom! Really?
Randall55
09-06-2023, 03:42 PM
How is the way it is run and monitored different than an airBnB or ****? I know what I was asked for before staying at any of the three and the airBnB required more documentation from me. In none of the three did I notice any minders standing outside making sure I was dressed properly before leaving the home. You can insist that it is different but the only real difference is the name on the business collecting the rents.
Sure, you've never seen or heard of a problem with one of the Lifestyle homes. I'll bet the same can be said of 90+% of the homes rented as airBnB. I'm honestly interested in how many people on here have personal experience with consistently bad renters in their neighborhood and how many are arguing over something they have never experienced.You keep stating over and over you have never seen or heard of a problem with STRs. You haven't been listening. If they were not a problem then why did NYC put an end to them? Why are cities across the world restricting them? Again, I tell you, it is you against the world. Where you do not see a problem, millions of people do.
Bill14564
09-06-2023, 04:00 PM
You keep stating over and over you have never seen or heard of a problem with STRs. You haven't been listening. If they were not a problem then why did NYC put an end to them? Why are cities across the world restricting them? Again, I tell you, it is you against the world. Where you do not see a problem, millions of people do.
I don't live in NYC and, frankly, I don't want TV to emulate NYC.
I don't know why cities across the world are restricting them. Again, I don't live in cities across the world and I don't want TV to emulate them.
I also never said I had not heard of a problem with STRs. I wrote that I have never personally experienced a problem with a renter and I (hopefully) implied that even though there have been several threads on ToTV claiming there were problems with STRs only a few have ever been identified.
Not everyone uses ToTV so perhaps many of those experiencing STR problems haven't posted here. Maybe those that have posted are holding back on all the problems they have experienced. That would not be typical ToTV behavior but it could happen.
I do not see a problem because, I have not seen a problem and I have not seen millions/thousands/hundreds/dozens/more than a few mention problems in ToTV. Let NYC, Orlando, St Augustine, and the world solve the problems they are having, I'm more concerned about the problems ToTV is having (or not).
Bottom line, we have enough laws restricting our rights (even here in the "Free" state of Florida). I don't want to see any more rights limited or taken away unless it is absolutely necessary. When I hear that the city of Wildwood refused to deal with the car parked across someone's driveway or Sumter County Sheriff would not break up the loud street party at 4AM then I might agree that more limitations are necessary. If that pits me against the world then so be it. However, with reports of thousands or STRs in TV, I believe there are others who don't want to see their rights limited either.
Velvet
09-06-2023, 04:00 PM
Bull$#@&! It appears as though both a STR landlord and a “legend in his own mind” has stepped forward. I guess the rest of us are merely a bunch of old and unsophisticated folks with no savvy or wisdom! Really?
This comment has me just laughing out loud. The poster you are talking about is making a pathetic attempt to justify his view point through ageism… lol.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 04:01 PM
No.
Villagers want it both ways.
They want to complain about "renters" & "snow birds", but can't wait to talk about their increasing property value/equity in their home. All of which is driven by the demand created by renters & snow birds. Some brag about the equity in their home. Others know the home they are living in will be their forever home. They do not want an increase in property taxes and insurance. They do not want a burst in the real estate bubble similar to 2008. Living with strangers coming and going is not what they want because they understand crime will soon follow. And, they especially do not want to hear from those who rent out homes that " Hey! I am doing you and everyone here a favor." The only people who profit from STRs are those who have invested into them.
Normal
09-06-2023, 04:03 PM
You keep stating over and over you have never seen or heard of a problem with STRs. You haven't been listening. If they were not a problem then why did NYC put an end to them? Why are cities across the world restricting them? Again, I tell you, it is you against the world. Where you do not see a problem, millions of people do.
He certainly is the anomaly. Anyone who thinks it’s cool to just change out neighbors weekly who have no responsibility to the premises they occupy, isn’t considering the negative impacts. Multiply the odds of negative impact by changing the occupants to a different group weekly and it’s not the matter of “if” it’s going to happen, but “when” and how often.
The number one thing buyers need to ask is, “Are there rentals on the street I’m considering to buy on?” If yes, understand it can lesson the value of the home you purchase. Most don’t want that and will look elsewhere.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 04:06 PM
I don't know about "lame excuses", but I'm sure there are people on this site who own STR's. After all, STR owners are likely younger, more sophisticated and see the wisdom in keeping up with TV issues.
The Villages demographic is fascinating, in it's consistency. The younger, more sophisticated and savvy folks seem to be the new comers down south. The middle of TV seems to have a lot of successful folks, fairly new to retirement. By the time you get to the Northern/Historic area, you have the much older folks who moved to TV when it wasn't much more than a trailer park. These people seem to want the world to return to the way it was in 70's and they rail against anything new, while they bemoan the passing of the "good old days", when Harold Schwartz roamed Spanish Springs. Wow! I guess sophisticated and savvy are in the eyes of the beholder. Just wondering. At what age do you believe you will become one of the unsophisticated slugs?
Randall55
09-06-2023, 04:20 PM
I don't live in NYC and, frankly, I don't want TV to emulate NYC.
I don't know why cities across the world are restricting them. Again, I don't live in cities across the world and I don't want TV to emulate them.
I also never said I had not heard of a problem with STRs. I wrote that I have never personally experienced a problem with a renter and I (hopefully) implied that even though there have been several threads on ToTV claiming there were problems with STRs only a few have ever been identified.
Not everyone uses ToTV so perhaps many of those experiencing STR problems haven't posted here. Maybe those that have posted are holding back on all the problems they have experienced. That would not be typical ToTV behavior but it could happen.
I do not see a problem because, I have not seen a problem and I have not seen millions/thousands/hundreds/dozens/more than a few mention problems in ToTV. Let NYC, Orlando, St Augustine, and the world solve the problems they are having, I'm more concerned about the problems ToTV is having (or not).
Bottom line, we have enough laws restricting our rights (even here in the "Free" state of Florida). I don't want to see any more rights limited or taken away unless it is absolutely necessary. When I hear that the city of Wildwood refused to deal with the car parked across someone's driveway or Sumter County Sheriff would not break up the loud street party at 4AM then I might agree that more limitations are necessary. If that pits me against the world then so be it. However, with reports of thousands or STRs in TV, I believe there are others who don't want to see their rights limited either.This is exactly where the world and you differ. You believe it is a right for people to rent their homes for short periods of time without worrying about the consequences.
The world has seen the consequences and are now placing restrictions on "the right" you claim to have.
MartyW
09-06-2023, 04:48 PM
Timely post. I read on one of the FB groups today where a STR is actually being billed as a Bed & Breakfast. At some point this has got to run afoul of the "running a business" rule...
Randall55
09-06-2023, 04:51 PM
Timely post. I read on one of the FB groups today where a STR is actually being billed as a Bed & Breakfast. At some point this has got to run afoul of the "running a business" rule... How in the world is the homeowner providing breakfast to his renters? Just curious.
JOERILLA
09-06-2023, 05:14 PM
How in the world is the homeowner providing breakfast to his renters? Just curious.
Pop tarts??
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 05:19 PM
Timely post. I read on one of the FB groups today where a STR is actually being billed as a Bed & Breakfast. At some point this has got to run afoul of the "running a business" rule...
It already has run afoul. The problem is that the party with the authority to enforce the violation has the right of enforcement, not the responsibility. This selective enforcement totally discredits the whole deed restriction system.
tophcfa
09-06-2023, 05:22 PM
How in the world is the homeowner providing breakfast to his renters? Just curious.
Toss a couple stale bagels on the table. Form over substance at its best.
oldtimes
09-06-2023, 05:33 PM
That time restriction would be against state law.
Prior posts have links to the law.
Anything people propose restricting STRs would directly impact Morse because the Lifestyle Visit is a STR program. That's not happening.
I don't think you can rent for an overnight. When we did it the minimum was a week.
BrianL99
09-06-2023, 07:36 PM
Out of perspective curiosity where do you live Brian ?
About in the middle.
Bull$#@&! It appears as though both a STR landlord and a “legend in his own mind” has stepped forward. I guess the rest of us are merely a bunch of old and unsophisticated folks with no savvy or wisdom! Really?
You should have read my post in its entirety and perhaps you'd understand the context.
This comment has me just laughing out loud. The poster you are talking about is making a pathetic attempt to justify his view point through ageism… lol.
There's where you're wrong. You have no clue of my viewpoint. I just have a lot of experience in this particular subject and I'm not opposed to doing the research necessary to post accurate observations and/or information.
As for my viewpoint. I don't own any STR's in The Villages, nor anywhere else. I do have management responsibility for a few hotels, so I have some experience with that side of the industry.
That said, the reason I don't own any STR's are I think they are an abomination and undermine the basic principles and premises of Residential Zoning. IMO, people who buy a home in a Residentially Zoned area, have a right to expect it will continue to be a neighborhood were folks actually reside and not become a haven for transient renters.
To my continued dismay, I have yet to be appointed King for a Day, so STR's are an unfortunate reality and the Developer seems unwilling or uninterested in enforcing the existing Deed Restrictions. There seems to be a reasonable case made, that the current deed restrictions that prohibit "Business Use" of home in TV, would prohibit STR's.
The only way I know of to find out, is to mount a legal challenge and sue STR owners as 3rd Party Beneficiaries of the Deed Restrictions.
Just as an aside to the issues in TV, this "discussion" is going on in most every resort type community in the USA, particularly along the coast ... from Maine, around Florida and all the way to CA and Oregon.
There are *some* towns (& perhaps states) that have "beat the STR problem". It has to do with the way the community (or Zoning Authority) defines "Residential Use".
When the majority of Zoning Regulations were written, STR's didn't exist, so they typically weren't addressed in zoning schemes. Some zoning authorities (mostly by accident) decided to define "Transient Use" in their zoning scheme. Those communities (or states) have avoided the STR battles, because most don't allow "Transient Use" in their Residential Districts.
In other words, if a zoning scheme doesn't specifically define "transient use", most courts have concluded that STR's fall into the definition of "Residential". (BTW, some of the communities in FL that are "Grandfathered" with respect to their STR Regulations [I believe there are 75 of them], are Grandfathered because their zoning scheme defines "transient use" and prohibit that usage in a residentially zoned district.)
Velvet
09-06-2023, 08:20 PM
About in the middle.
You should have read my post in its entirety and perhaps you'd understand the context.
There's where you're wrong. You have no clue of my viewpoint. I just have a lot of experience in this particular subject and I'm not opposed to doing the research necessary to post accurate observations and/or information.
As for my viewpoint. I don't own any STR's in The Villages, nor anywhere else. I do have management responsibility for a few hotels, so I have some experience with that side of the industry.
That said, the reason I don't own any STR's are I think they are an abomination and undermine the basic principles and premises of Residential Zoning. IMO, people who buy a home in a Residentially Zoned area, have a right to expect it will continue to be a neighborhood were folks actually reside and not become a haven for transient renters.
To my continued dismay, I have yet to be appointed King for a Day, so STR's are an unfortunate reality and the Developer seems unwilling or uninterested in enforcing the existing Deed Restrictions. There seems to be a reasonable case made, that the current deed restrictions that prohibit "Business Use" of home in TV, would prohibit STR's.
The only way I know of to find out, is to mount a legal challenge and sue STR owners as 3rd Party Beneficiaries of the Deed Restrictions.
Just as an aside to the issues in TV, this "discussion" is going on in most every resort type community in the USA, particularly along the coast ... from Maine, around Florida and all the way to CA and Oregon.
There are *some* towns (& perhaps states) that have "beat the STR problem". It has to do with the way the community (or Zoning Authority) defines "Residential Use".
When the majority of Zoning Regulations were written, STR's didn't exist, so they typically weren't addressed in zoning schemes. Some zoning authorities (mostly by accident) decided to define "Transient Use" in their zoning scheme. Those communities (or states) have avoided the STR battles, because most don't allow "Transient Use" in their Residential Districts.
In other words, if a zoning scheme doesn't specifically define "transient use", most courts have concluded that STR's fall into the definition of "Residential". (BTW, some of the communities in FL that are "Grandfathered" with respect to their STR Regulations [I believe there are 75 of them], are Grandfathered because their zoning scheme defines "transient use" and prohibit that usage in a residentially zoned district.)
I appreciate your clarifications.
Randall55
09-06-2023, 10:31 PM
[QUOTE=BrianL99;2253804]About in the middle.
You should have read my post in its entirety and perhaps you'd understand the context.
There's where you're wrong. You have no clue of my viewpoint. I just have a lot of experience in this particular subject and I'm not opposed to doing the research necessary to post accurate observations and/or information.
As for my viewpoint. I don't own any STR's in The Villages, nor anywhere else. I do have management responsibility for a few hotels, so I have some experience with that side of the industry.
That said, the reason I don't own any STR's are I think they are an abomination and undermine the basic principles and premises of Residential Zoning. IMO, people who buy a home in a Residentially Zoned area, have a right to expect it will continue to be a neighborhood were folks actually reside and not become a haven for transient renters.
To my continued dismay, I have yet to be appointed King for a Day, so STR's are an unfortunate reality and the Developer seems unwilling or uninterested in enforcing the existing Deed Restrictions. There seems to be a reasonable case made, that the current deed restrictions that prohibit "Business Use" of home in TV, would prohibit STR's.
The only way I know of to find out, is to mount a legal challenge and sue STR owners as 3rd Party Beneficiaries of the Deed Restrictions.
Just as an aside to the issues in TV, this "discussion" is going on in most every resort type community in the USA, particularly along the coast ... from Maine, around Florida and all the way to CA and Oregon.
There are *some* towns (& perhaps states) that have "beat the STR problem". It has to do with the way the community (or Zoning Authority) defines "Residential Use".
When the majority of Zoning Regulations were written, STR's didn't exist, so they typically weren't addressed in zoning schemes. Some zoning authorities (mostly by accident) decided to define "Transient Use" in their zoning scheme. Those communities (or states) have avoided the STR battles, because most don't allow "Transient Use" in their Residential Districts.
In other words, if a zoning scheme doesn't specifically define "transient use", most courts have concluded that STR's fall into the definition of "Residential". (BTW, some of the communities in FL that are "Grandfathered" with respect to their STR Regulations [I believe there are 75 of them], are Grandfathered because their zoning scheme defines "transient use" and prohibit that usage in a residentially zoned district.)[/QUOTE)
///
Maker
09-07-2023, 05:09 AM
I don't think you can rent for an overnight. When we did it the minimum was a week.
That 1 week minimum was the choice made by the property owner. It's their personal preference. Their choice is likely related to other factors, such as the amount of work needed for every new renter - their time involved with managing each rental, cleaning, inspections, conducting background checks, etc.
There is no law in TV about minimum duration. They could have picked 1 night if they wanted.
Sandy and Ed
09-07-2023, 05:15 AM
No.
Villagers want it both ways.
They want to complain about "renters" & "snow birds", but can't wait to talk about their increasing property value/equity in their home. All of which is driven by the demand created by renters & snow birds.
A monthly rental or snow bird is not a STR. I refer to the long weekend or weekly rentals. A month (I.e., minimum 30 days) is ok.
oldtimes
09-07-2023, 06:50 AM
That 1 week minimum was the choice made by the property owner. It's their personal preference. Their choice is likely related to other factors, such as the amount of work needed for every new renter - their time involved with managing each rental, cleaning, inspections, conducting background checks, etc.
There is no law in TV about minimum duration. They could have picked 1 night if they wanted.
I was talking about the lifestyle preview. I googled further and found it was 4 to 7 days.
defrey12
09-07-2023, 08:03 AM
Seems fairly straightforward…thanks. The measure could be placed before voters, funding for enforcement could easily be a surplus in the budget through licensing/fines, and if there were issues with landlords having to reside during their “guests” stay, then many would decide not to rent. It’s a win/ win.
Sorry, but I think this is the WRONG discussion. What y’all are proposing is nothing short of violating constitutional property rights. Yes, there may be an issue. But wholesale limits on what a person can or cannot do with their property via government intrusion is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! PERIOD! If I (or you) want to rent our property NO ONE can tell us not to. Should there be SENSIBLE rules? Sure. But to put outright prohibitions on such activities is AGAINST THE LAW! Then the discussion turned to financing enforcement of these nonsensical edicts…the county can’t even figure out how to pay for fire protection, so do you think they’ll actually entertain such a notion?
Velvet
09-07-2023, 09:17 AM
Sorry, but I think this is the WRONG discussion. What y’all are proposing is nothing short of violating constitutional property rights. Yes, there may be an issue. But wholesale limits on what a person can or cannot do with their property via government intrusion is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! PERIOD! If I (or you) want to rent our property NO ONE can tell us not to. Should there be SENSIBLE rules? Sure. But to put outright prohibitions on such activities is AGAINST THE LAW! Then the discussion turned to financing enforcement of these nonsensical edicts…the county can’t even figure out how to pay for fire protection, so do you think they’ll actually entertain such a notion?
Of course they can tell you what you can do on your property. You are not in a cave or in the middle of the dessert. What you do affects your neighbors and you do not have a right to compromise their well-being. For example, you can’t burn leaves etc in a barrel on your lawn in most cities. Why do you think one person’s right supersedes a whole group of others? If you don’t like to comply, go find your cave.
As far as TV Lifestyle promotion goes, it is never billed as a vacation etc. party time or etc. It is a sample of living with the intent that if you like it then you buy a home in TV. It is part of the sales advertising. The STR renters almost never intend to buy a home here. They just come for the facilities, usually not giving much care about their negative impact on the people around them.
Normal
09-07-2023, 09:41 AM
All is answered through a single question about the illegality of AirBnBs.
Do you own more than one home in the Villages?
If you answered “yes”, you are owning for profit. In several instances actual companies own houses. More than one house indicates a business is operating.
Velvet
09-07-2023, 09:45 AM
Another way might be to limit issue of visitor’s ID to a time period. I am not looking forward to another season of being swarmed by STRs at the pool to the point where there was no room for me like last year. Over and over again.
oldtimes
09-07-2023, 09:51 AM
Another way might be to limit issue of visitor’s ID to a time period. I am not looking forwards to another season of being swarmed by STRs at the pool like last year. Over and over again.
The developer stopped caring about the residents 2 generations ago.
Bill14564
09-07-2023, 09:52 AM
All is answered through a single question about the illegality of AirBnBs.
Do you own more than one home in the Villages?
If you answered “yes”, you are owning for profit. In several instances actual companies own houses. More than one house indicates a business is operating.
???
(Note: take "illegal" to mean "illegal or in violation of a deed restriction")
It is not illegal to own more than one home.
It is not illegal for a business to own a home.
It is not illegal to own a home for profit.
It is not illegal to own a business.
Except in specific cases, it is not illegal to conduct commercial activities in a home.
Rentals, regardless of duration, are not illegal and do not constitute a commercial activity in a home.
Normal
09-07-2023, 09:58 AM
Correct,”violation” of a deed restriction.
ahrens fox
09-07-2023, 01:02 PM
Right on
BrianL99
09-07-2023, 02:50 PM
Sorry, but I think this is the WRONG discussion. What y’all are proposing is nothing short of violating constitutional property rights. Yes, there may be an issue. But wholesale limits on what a person can or cannot do with their property via government intrusion is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! PERIOD! If I (or you) want to rent our property NO ONE can tell us not to. Should there be SENSIBLE rules? Sure. But to put outright prohibitions on such activities is AGAINST THE LAW! Then the discussion turned to financing enforcement of these nonsensical edicts…the county can’t even figure out how to pay for fire protection, so do you think they’ll actually entertain such a notion?
I assume somewhere in your legal career, you've heard of "Zoning Laws" ?
Not to put to fine of a point on it, but when you buy property, what you are really buying is not the "dirt", you're buying a "Bundle of Rights".
Those rights are whatever rights the prior owner had and has agreed to sell you, along with the rights (& restrictions) endowed by other stake holders ... which include governments, local, state and federal. Unfortunately perhaps, but governments have the right to alter the rights you may or may not have purchased.
Randall55
09-07-2023, 05:30 PM
I assume somewhere in your legal career, you've heard of "Zoning Laws" ?
Not to put to fine of a point on it, but when you buy property, what you are really buying is not the "dirt", you're buying a "Bundle of Rights".
Those rights are whatever rights the prior owner had and has agreed to sell you, along with the rights (& restrictions) endowed by other stake holders ... which include governments, local, state and federal. Unfortunately perhaps, but governments have the right to alter the rights you may or may not have purchased.?????? I would never buy dirt/bundle of rights, as you call it, without having everything clearly in writing. Here in the Villages, your rights are limited to the deed restrictions. When you sign in ink, you agree to these restrictions. Some argue the meaning/legality of certain sections, but if needed, you have the right to resolve it in court. The same goes for governing bodies. They cannot change a law or your rights without a legal cause to do so. What you have stated is a dictatorship. We abolished that thinking with a document that begins with these famous words:
We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by the creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....
BrianL99
09-07-2023, 06:13 PM
?????? I would never buy dirt, as you call it, without having everything clearly in writing. Here in the Villages, your rights are limited to the deed restrictions. When you sign in ink, you agree to these restrictions. Some argue the meaning/legality of certain sections, but if needed, you have the right to resolve it in court. The same goes for governing bodies. They cannot change a law or your rights without a legal cause to do so. What you have stated is a dictatorship. We abolished that thinking with a document that begins with these famous words:
We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men are created equal. That they are endowed by the creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....
The Villages is a perfect example of the concept that when buying property, you are buying a "Bundle of Rights" (Bundle of Rights Definition in Real Estate and What's Included (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bundle-of-rights.asp)).
When TV bought the land that comprises TV, they bought a "Bundle of Rights". When they sold the land/houses to residents, that bundle became different. TV reserved certain rights (took them out of the bundle and kept them). One of those "rights" they took away before selling the home/lot was everything included in the Deed Restrictions and Covenants.
A simple way to look at it (in reverse), is someone selling the mineral rights to their property, to an exploration company. The deal is, "I keep my land and home, but you Mr. Exploration company, have the right to harvest any diamonds buried under my dirt".
The same thing can happens in reverse. You can sell your land and retain the mineral rights. Just take it out of the "bundle" as TV did with their restrictions.
As for the "Dictatorship", cities, towns and states have an over-riding right and/or obligation to provide for the public good and can implement laws and regulations toward that end. You cannot dump a gallon of used motor oil in you backyard, that would violate the law. You could certainly sue when the state environmental agency stepped in and fined you, but you'd be fighting a losing battle.
Every Congress for the last 40 years, has faced gun control issues. Even the staunchest gun owners and defenders of the 2nd Amendment, have acquiesced to the implementation of *some* gun control laws.
The erosion of personal/individual rights, is well honored tradition of governments everywhere ... that's why we have governments. We make a trade. We give up certain rights to the government and in exchange, they do things for us (like build roads & defend our country).
Randall55
09-07-2023, 06:28 PM
The Villages is a perfect example of the concept that when buying property, you are buying a "Bundle of Rights" (Bundle of Rights Definition in Real Estate and What's Included (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bundle-of-rights.asp)).
When TV bought the land that comprises TV, they bought a "Bundle of Rights". When they sold the land/houses to residents, that bundle became different. TV reserved certain rights (took them out of the bundle and kept them). One of those "rights" they took away before selling the home/lot was everything included in the Deed Restrictions and Covenants.
A simple way to look at it (in reverse), is someone selling the mineral rights to their property, to an exploration company. The deal is, "I keep my land and home, but you Mr. Exploration company, have the right to harvest any diamonds buried under my dirt".
The same thing can happens in reverse. You can sell your land and retain the mineral rights. Just take it out of the "bundle" as TV did with their restrictions.
As for the "Dictatorship", cities, towns and states have an over-riding right and/or obligation to provide for the public good and can implement laws and regulations toward that end. You cannot dump a gallon of used motor oil in you backyard, that would violate the law. You could certainly sue when the state environmental agency stepped in and fined you, but you'd be fighting a losing battle.
Every Congress for the last 40 years, has faced gun control issues. Even the staunchest gun owners and defenders of the 2nd Amendment, have acquiesced to the implementation of *some* gun control laws.
The erosion of personal/individual rights, is well honored tradition of governments everywhere ... that's why we have governments. We make a trade. We give up certain rights to the government and in exchange, they do things for us (like build roads & defend our country).
I think you are confused. No where, no way, no how, does any governing body have a right to impose laws without a legal cause to do so. The items you stated are legal because they are defined in laws. Our country is a democracy. People who live here are never stripped of their rights. Again, that would be a dictatorship. NYC changed the rules of STRs according to the law. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to rob their citizens. Although, to many, it appears that way. Good news Is anyone who disagrees with the new limitations has the right to fight in a court room. If they win, it is because NYC violated the law not because they were stripping anyone of their rights.You seem to believe the government has powers to do as they wish. That is completely wrong.
margaretmattson
09-07-2023, 07:12 PM
Ugh! Sometimes these types of threads give me a headache. Anyone have an aspirin?
Bill14564
09-07-2023, 08:03 PM
I think you are confused. No where, no way, no how, does any governing body have a right to impose laws without a legal cause to do so. The items you stated are legal because they are defined in laws. Our country is a democracy. People who live here are never stripped of their rights. Again, that would be a dictatorship. NYC changed the rules of STRs according to the law. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to rob their citizens. Although, to many, it appears that way. Good news Is anyone who disagrees with the new limitations has the right to fight in a court room. If they win, it is because NYC violated the law not because they were stripping anyone of their rights.You seem to believe the government has powers to do as they wish. That is completely wrong.
Sure, there was a legal process to creating a new law, but NYC *did* create/change the law. If you owned a home in NYC then what you were able to do with your property in June you are not able to do with your property in September - you lost the right to do that, the Govt. took away some of your rights.
Zoning laws and land use restrictions (like wetlands restrictions) work the same way. The Govt follows the legal process to change the zoning or impose the restrictions but in the end, the property owner loses some rights.
Today, I can have my driveway painted any color I would like, that is a right I have because it is not restricted by my deed restrictions or District rules. It is very likely that by December my District rules will be changed to require ARC approval before I can paint my driveway. The District worked within the legal process but in the end I have lost some of my rights to use my property the way I want.
In any of these examples could one say there was there a legal cause to make the change? I don't see it. I don't see where the Govt was forced to make those changes. The Govt *chose* to make those changes. While I'm sure they could articulate a reason for the changes, what *caused* them to make the changes was a desire to ingratiate themselves with a subset of the voters.
Randall55
09-07-2023, 08:22 PM
[QUOTE=Bill14564;225425)
If some citizens believe they lost their rights to operate a STR in NYC they have right to take it to court. If they feel slighted by their government leaders they can vote for someone else. If they want a new law enacted, they can start a bill. A democracy is a government controlled by the people. No one is FORCED. What you believe is YOUR RIGHTS other believe it is not. This is the reason we have court rooms.
Bill14564
09-07-2023, 08:37 PM
If some citizens believe they lost their rights to operate a STR in NYC they have right to take it to court. If they feel slighted by their government leaders they can vote for someone else. If they want a new law enacted, they can start a bill. A democracy is a government controlled by the people. No one is FORCED. What you believe is YOUR RIGHTS other believe it is not. This is the reason we have court rooms.
Now you are changing the argument. Your initial assertion was "No where, no way, no how, does any governing body have a right to impose laws without a legal cause to do so." Now your assertion is "If some citizens believe they lost their rights to operate a STR in NYC they have right to take it to court."
Yes, they can take it to court, but they will likely lose. The Govt has the ability to make laws that strip or limit the people's rights. That is why we have a Bill of Rights, to explicitly list some of the rights the Govt cannot take away (though they still try, sometimes successfully). The Govt does impose laws that take away rights.
You are very much FORCED to follow the law, particularly the laws that have taken away your rights. Yes, you can vote in the next election but that doesn't change the reality that you are FORCED to follow current law.
Randall55
09-07-2023, 08:49 PM
Now you are changing the argument. Your initial assertion was "No where, no way, no how, does any governing body have a right to impose laws without a legal cause to do so." Now your assertion is "If some citizens believe they lost their rights to operate a STR in NYC they have right to take it to court."
Yes, they can take it to court, but they will likely lose. The Govt has the ability to make laws that strip or limit the people's rights. That is why we have a Bill of Rights, to explicitly list some of the rights the Govt cannot take away (though they still try, sometimes successfully). The Govt does impose laws that take away rights.
You are very much FORCED to follow the law, particularly the laws that have taken away your rights. Yes, you can vote in the next election but that doesn't change the reality that you are FORCED to follow current law.Sounds like the same assertion to me. No where, no way, no how, can our government take away your rights. The reason? You can fight them in court, vote them out of office, or start a legislative bill of your own. There is no guarantee your side will win. The side of justice and the law wins.
BTW: everyone born in the USA follows the laws of our constitution. It is not a pick and choose situation. Although, when you feel slighted, it appears that it is. Another right you have? Move to another country. Each of us has the freedom to do that, as well. (As long as the country you choose will accept you) What more can I tell you? It is what it is.
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 05:01 AM
I think you are confused. No where, no way, no how, does any governing body have a right to impose laws without a legal cause to do so. The items you stated are legal because they are defined in laws. Our country is a democracy. People who live here are never stripped of their rights. Again, that would be a dictatorship. NYC changed the rules of STRs according to the law. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to rob their citizens. Although, to many, it appears that way. Good news Is anyone who disagrees with the new limitations has the right to fight in a court room. If they win, it is because NYC violated the law not because they were stripping anyone of their rights.You seem to believe the government has powers to do as they wish. That is completely wrong.
I'm not confused.
If you doubt the power of the government, perhaps acquaint yourself with Executive Order 9066.
Randall55
09-08-2023, 05:07 AM
I'm not confused.
If you doubt the power of the government, perhaps acquaint yourself with Executive Order 9066. If you doubt the Constitution of the United States acquaint yourself with that first
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 05:37 AM
If you doubt the Constitution of the United States acquaint yourself with someone who has a degree on the subject. Oh! You already have! Let me introduce myself. I may be a retired contractor, but in my early years, I obtained a degree in political science. I just enjoyed working with my hands more. In case you are wondering, I graduated with high honors. Sorry to brag, but it is what it is.
I doubt anyone was wondering
Randall55
09-08-2023, 06:42 AM
I doubt anyone was wondering I disagree. I am kinda new to this forum. It seems like some people on these threads can't see the obvious when it is right in front of them. Instead, they want to continue with banter and can't imagine they are highly outgunned. Instead, they WONDER why someone would keep trying to correct them.
On another thread, two retired doctors were chiming in on a hip problem. If you carefully read their posts it was obvious they were retired doctors. Yet, some posters kept arguing their point WONDERING why two rude people were telling them the opposite of what they wanted to hear. After laughing and reading through that thread, I decided to come clean on this one. You can't win for losing.
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 08:11 AM
I disagree. I am kinda new to this forum. It seems like some people on these threads can't see the obvious when it is right in front of them. Instead, they want to continue with banter and can't imagine they are highly outgunned. Instead, they WONDER why someone would keep trying to correct them.
On another thread, two retired doctors were chiming in on a hip problem. If you carefully read their posts it was obvious they were retired doctors. Yet, some posters kept arguing their point WONDERING why two rude people were telling them the opposite of what they wanted to hear. After laughing and reading through that thread, I decided to come clean on this one. You can't win for losing.
Nominated for Post of Year!
"Highly outgunned"? I almost spit out my coffee, I love it!
I'm going to re-read "The Emperor's New Clothes" and see if I can figure out what the King's given name was, now that I have a clue.
Randall55
09-08-2023, 08:57 AM
[QUOTE=BrianL99;2254424]Nominated for Post of Year!
"Highly outgunned"? I almost spit out my coffee, I love it!
I'm going to re-read "The Emperor's New Clothes" and see if I can figure out what the King's given name was.
Velvet
09-08-2023, 09:05 AM
I disagree. I am kinda new to this forum. It seems like some people on these threads can't see the obvious when it is right in front of them. Instead, they want to continue with banter and can't imagine they are highly outgunned. Instead, they WONDER why someone would keep trying to correct them.
On another thread, two retired doctors were chiming in on a hip problem. If you carefully read their posts it was obvious they were retired doctors. Yet, some posters kept arguing their point WONDERING why two rude people were telling them the opposite of what they wanted to hear. After laughing and reading through that thread, I decided to come clean on this one. You can't win for losing.
Well, welcome to TOTV. You have already picked up the gist of what our posters are like. That is why some threads are closed, some posts are deleted. We have everyone from university presidents (just retired) to people who had recently suffered a stroke, and view points vary to an even larger extent. But, you will find that there are some posters who consistently offer wise advice. And you will also probably notice that “the powers that be” look at the forum sometimes.
Randall55
09-08-2023, 09:28 AM
Well, welcome to TOTV. You have already picked up the gist of what our posters are like. That is why some threads are closed, some posts are deleted. We have everyone from university presidents (just retired) to people who had recently suffered a stroke, and view points vary to an even larger extent. But, you will find that there are some posters who consistently offer wise advice. And you will also probably notice that “the powers that be” look at the forum sometimes. Thanks. I believe in nearly every thread, one or two posters are supplying the correct information. I look for those. But sometimes, I get caught up in foolishness and can't stop myself from posting fully knowing it is about to go nowhere. Someone sent me a. PM and told me to not waste my time. Today, on one particular post, I have learned that lesson. Wish me luck! (and restraint) Looking forward to reading more of your posts.
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 11:03 AM
You still are unable to take the advice of someone who has a Masters Degree on this subject. Once again, read the US constitution. Then read the Florida and New York Constitutions. All of your questions, doubts, inquiries, etc will be found there. Or read the Emperors New Clothes. Your choice. I know I have the proper education to evaluate why or how NYC stopped STRs. I also know the moral of the Emperor's New Clothes. Hint: It is not the given name of the king. Now, I am the one spitting out my coffee and laughing.
1. When someone has to resort to asserting their degrees, you know they have lost the argument because they do not have facts and logic to fall back on so you must bow to their degree.
2. James Madison did not have a Masters Degree in Political Science. Are you asserting he would be unworthy of discussing the Constitution with you?
3. Degree in Political Science. When I watch NCAA football on the weekends and they introduce the players, Political Science and Marketing are the primary areas of study I see under their names. I wonder why that is.
4. Anyone who ever actually writes "The side of justice and the law wins." cannot ever be taken seriously. Are you saying that slavery being legal in the U.S. was justice and that no one's right's were taken away?
5. If all it took was a Masters Degree in political science to be the expert, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court to address the Constitutionality of laws drafted by people with law degrees (I don't have a Masters Degree in Political Science so I don't have the right to say this as fact, but I believe that is a higher degree than a Masters Degree in Political Science). We could just come to you or anyone else with a degree in Political Science to get the absolute ruling.
6. The vast majority of SCUSA rulings are split decisions. One or two of them have degrees in something or other related to the law and/or Constitution (may not be as distinguished as a Masters Degree in Political Science, but still some education and possibly some experience.) How can they possibly disagree with each other if they all/most have advanced degrees? I thought the degree made them infallible; but how can they both be right and disagree?
7. There are so many other points that can be refuted, but who has the time to point out all that has been wrong in your posts?
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 12:03 PM
He certainly is the anomaly. Anyone who thinks it’s cool to just change out neighbors weekly who have no responsibility to the premises they occupy, isn’t considering the negative impacts. Multiply the odds of negative impact by changing the occupants to a different group weekly and it’s not the matter of “if” it’s going to happen, but “when” and how often.
The number one thing buyers need to ask is, “Are there rentals on the street I’m considering to buy on?” If yes, understand it can lesson the value of the home you purchase. Most don’t want that and will look elsewhere.
I wish one of my neighbors would switch to STR. I would rather risk having some issues than certainly have issues that I do.
TrapX
09-08-2023, 12:07 PM
If my ability to rent my properties becomes limited because of some new arbitrary minimum duration, or forces some other arbitrary restriction upon me, I would immediately file an assessment dispute. It would likely win a significant reduction, eventually, after a lot of resistance from the same government that instituted those restrictions.
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 12:11 PM
1.
3. Degree in Political Science. When I watch NCAA football on the weekends and they introduce the players, Political Science and Marketing are the primary areas of study I see under their names. I wonder why that is.
If the Basket Weaving Degree Program is full, there aren't many choices left.
Randall55
09-08-2023, 01:05 PM
1. When someone has to resort to asserting their degrees, you know they have lost the argument because they do not have facts and logic to fall back on so you must bow to their degree.
2. James Madison did not have a Masters Degree in Political Science. Are you asserting he would be unworthy of discussing the Constitution with you?
3. Degree in Political Science. When I watch NCAA football on the weekends and they introduce the players, Political Science and Marketing are the primary areas of study I see under their names. I wonder why that is.
4. Anyone who ever actually writes "The side of justice and the law wins." cannot ever be taken seriously. Are you saying that slavery being legal in the U.S. was justice and that no one's right's were taken away?
5. If all it took was a Masters Degree in political science to be the expert, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court to address the Constitutionality of laws drafted by people with law degrees (I don't have a Masters Degree in Political Science so I don't have the right to say this as fact, but I believe that is a higher degree than a Masters Degree in Political Science). We could just come to you or anyone else with a degree in Political Science to get the absolute ruling.
6. The vast majority of SCUSA rulings are split decisions. One or two of them have degrees in something or other related to the law and/or Constitution (may not be as distinguished as a Masters Degree in Political Science, but still some education and possibly some experience.) How can they possibly disagree with each other if they all/most have advanced degrees? I thought the degree made them infallible; but how can they both be right and disagree?
7. There are so many other points that can be refuted, but who has the time to point out all that has been wrong in your posts?
1.I already explained why I told you about my degree. I wanted to come clean instead of playing cat and mouse games with you.
2. Why would I argue with the person who wrote the constitution? Or even question his knowledge? I do not belittle intelligent people, I learn from them.
3. I am not now nor was I ever a football player and none of them attended any of my classes. So, how would I know?
4. All races were slaves at one time or another throughout history. The subject was addressed by our founding fathers when forming our new government but they did not know what to do with them. Send them back to Africa? To the same people who sold them? Leave them out into the wilderness to eventually die?
5.Never met a judge who didnt have a degree And never saïd I was a lawyer.
6.Ever hear of the great compromise? In short; people rarely agree on every issue or subject. Nor is it expected. You only need a majority to pass a bill, vote for a new leader etc.
7. Apparently, YOU DO!
Randall55
09-08-2023, 01:17 PM
I just thought of a reason a football player in college may choose a degree iin political science or marketing. Maybe during/after their NFL career, they want to use their fame to run for office or market a product. Ever hear of Nike Jordán Shoes? See a pro player in a commercial? Now, those are some losers, eh?
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 01:33 PM
After reading this thread again, I realized there are only 2 kinds of people posting on the Internet.
The smart ones, who when given a shovel, try to fill in the hole.
& others, who when given a shovel, decide to dig the hole deeper.
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 01:37 PM
1.I already explained why I told you about my degree. I wanted to come clean instead of playing cat and mouse games with you. In truth, you bore me.
2. Why would I argue with the person who wrote the constitution? (Stupid!) Or even question his knowledge? I do not belittle intelligent people, I learn from them.
3. I am not now nor was I ever a football player and none of them attended any of my classes. So, how would I know?
4. All races were slaves at one time or another throughout history. The subject was addressed by our founding fathers when forming our new government but they did not know what to do with them. Send them back to Africa? To the same people who sold them? Leave them out into the wilderness to eventually die? Read about the history of slaves and our founding fathers. And, stop believing sensationalized Hollywoid movies. You might be enlightened. Fact: slaves of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson loved these men. But, I wasn't around then so I do not know how they were actually treated or how well or not well they got along.
5.Never met a judge who didnt have a degree And never saïd I was a lawyer.
6.Ever hear of the great compromise? Again, read a history book, you might be enlightened. In short; people rarely agree on every issue or subject. Nor is it expected. You only need a majority to pass a bill, vote for a new leader etc. Again, read the constitution. You still believe our government is run like a dictatorship. Do you knox why we have 3 branches of government?
7. Apparently, YOU DO!
1. You are apparently did not even read who made the post. You were worried about playing cat and mouse with me? we have never even had an exchange. And you word it as if you worried about hiding your superior intellect. You needn't worry.
2. But he didn't have a :BigApplause: Masters Degree in Political Science:BigApplause:? According to you, someone with a :BigApplause:Masters Degree in Political Science:BigApplause: knows more than anyone else (and must disclose that fact, lest some mere mortal attempt to have an intellectual discussion with them). You do not know the intelligence of anyone on this site. But you belittle many. So, forgive me if I don't belive your assertion.
3. I'll just have to let that one go lest I get sent on vacation.
4. Wow. Just Wow! You weren't around to know how they were treated, i.e., not sure if they were even treated badly (but there are literally hundreds of sources that documented that and one would think a political science expert would not admit to such ignorance [meaning lack of knowledge on a topic - not intended as an insult] about that. But apparently you do KNOW that all of Washington and Jefferson's slaves loved them. And that nonsense aside, you didn't even address my point that you think slavery was justice and no one's rights were taken away with slavery.
5 and 6. You missed my point. Even the most educated, experienced, and esteemed have different viewpoints. Don't try to convince us that your :BigApplause:Masters Degree in Political Science:BigApplause: makes you above reproach.
7. Nope. Didn't even come close to addressing all of the fallacies. But after reading your assertion that Slavery is justice and slaves did not have their rights taken away, I am sure any efforts would be wasted...
Randall55
09-08-2023, 02:00 PM
1. You are apparently not capable of even reading who made the post. You were worried about playing cat and mouse with me? we have never even had an exchange. And you word it as if you worried about hiding your superior intellect. You needn't worry. It is still hidden.
2. But he didn't have a :BigApplause: Masters Degree in Political Science:BigApplause:? According to you, someone with a :BigApplause:Masters Degree in Political Science:BigApplause: knows more than anyone else (and must disclose that fact, lest some mere mortal attempt to have an intellectual discussion with them). You do not know the intelligence of anyone on this site. But you belittle many. So, forgive me if I don't belive your assertion.
3. I'll just have to let that one go lest I get sent on vacation.
4. Wow. Just Wow! You weren't around to know how they were treated, i.e., not sure if they were even treated badly (but there are literally hundreds of sources that documented that and one would think a political science expert would not admit to such ignorance [not an insult-lack of knowledge on a topic] about that. But apparently you do KNOW that all of Washington and Jefferson's slaves loved them. And that nonsense aside, you were not even capable of addressing my point that you think slavery was justice and no one's rights were taken away with slavery. Where did you get these degrees you espouse? I really must know.
5 and 6. Again not capable of understanding a simple point. Even the most educated, experienced, and esteemed have different viewpoints. Don't try to convince us that your :BigApplause:Masters Degree in Political Science:BigApplause: makes you above reproach.
7. Nope. Didn't even come close to addressing all of the fallacies. But after reading your assertion that Slavery is justice and slaves did not have their rights taken away, I am sure any efforts to enlighten you are wasted...as is the :BigApplause:Master Degree in Political Science :BigApplause: /////
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 02:01 PM
I done with amateur hour! Get back to me when you actually have real facts to back up your ideas.
///
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 02:07 PM
Slavery in the United States: Primary Sources and the Historical Record |
Classroom Materials at the Library of Congress |
Library of Congress (https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/slavery-in-the-united-states-primary-sources-and-the-historical-record/#slavery-in-the-united-states-1790-to-1865)
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 02:14 PM
....
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 02:36 PM
Mr. Cybersprings ...
I'm now doing exactly what I'm going to advise you, not to do. Please be careful with a direct response to someone, it could get you in trouble on the site (been there, done that).
Believe me, we can't afford to lose the few people who are able to sort through the nonsense & smoke, then call it like he sees it.
As tough as the lesson is to learn here on the Internet, there are many keyboard warriors, who are seriously affected with Dunning-Kruger effect. There is no known cure and by definition, those who are afflicted, don't have a clue.
Others just have to grin & bear it. I'm thinking there's a line from Monty Python or Forrest Gump that's appropriate, I just can't seem to recall it at the moment.
Thanks for the reminder. I have been sent on vacation several times already. But it is funny that the person who directly insults me, to whom I respond to get sent to jail never has any repercussions. I would hope in this case with someone supporting slavery in addtion to insulting, it would be mutual jail at least. If that were the case, I would consider it a worthy sacrifice for the team.
Randall55
09-08-2023, 03:32 PM
[QUOTE=Cybersprings;2254600]Thanks for the reminder. I have been sent on vacation several times already. But it is funny that the person who directly insults me, to whom I respond to get sent to jail never has any repercussions. I would hope in this case with someone supporting slavery in addtion to insulting, it would be mutual jail at least.
Cybersprings
09-08-2023, 03:56 PM
I am not a supporter of slavery. Twisting what I said to meet your beliefs is wrong. I was merely repeating what professors told me in college and what I read in history books. History is a tricky subject. One viewpoint is not the absolute truth. There are facts that support two sides on all issues. My family are jews. Some were sent to the gas chambers. I do not take your view of me lightly. If I am so wrong, then why do you get to assert your viewpoints in a demeaning fashion toward me? I do not have a problem with posting on the internet. I am at home resting an injured knee and am only trying to fill in my time in bed. How dare you insinuate I have an internet disease that I do not! Fact: Someone told me this may be a way to bide my time in bed. I have never been on an internet forum like this or others in my entire life.
How dare you say I am a slavery supporter when you do not know me! I have proof in history books to support what I wrote. I also clearly stated I was not there during that time to know for certain how well or not well the slaves were treated. No one does. If I am the one to go to jail over this, so be it. But, in fairness, you should be sent, as well for outright insults about me. I will accept whatever happens to me and move on with my life. I know what I am and what I am not. To me, that is all that matters.
1. It is not an internet disease. Look it up.
2. Regardless, I did not insinuate or post anything about that. Look back at the thread.
3. I think that repeating what your professors said or what you read without critical thinking is a bad idea. Slavery was a bad idea. It was bad for Jews throughout their history. It was bad for the Irish. It was bad for the American slaves. You do not have to have been there to recognize slavery was bad for the slaves (the only argument is to what degree it was for each slave). You had no problem not being there and yet asserting that Washington and Jefferson's slaves loved them. IF that is true, there are still exponentially more references addressing the treatment of slaves in the U.S. then there are references addressing the slaves' love for their owners (just that term lets you know it was bad - people shouldn't own other people).
4. I was not in any way asserting that you should go to TOTV jail. My assertion was that my posts were no more insulting than yours, and if I get sent to jail, you should as well. But in my opinion, 2 adults should be allowed to have heated discourse without a threat of going to "jail", as long as no one threatens another.
5. If you do not support slavery, than I was mistaken. All of the content of your posts prior to this one I am responding to seemed to whitewash it since "slavery has existed forever". And I offered slavery as an example of how justice does not always prevail. You seemed to refute that which clearly implies that slavery is just(ice).
6. The fact that you are of Jewish ancestry has no bearing on the discussion. The concentration camps were not mentioned by me and are not related to slavery in the U.S. But my condolences to anyone, including your family, that had to endure the horror and evil that exists in this world. But you can find holocaust deniers out there. Just because their are "two sides to history" doe s not give them equal value as you insinuated with your comments about the history of slavery in the U.S.
JMintzer
09-08-2023, 04:32 PM
I think you are confused. No where, no way, no how, does any governing body have a right to impose laws without a legal cause to do so. The items you stated are legal because they are defined in laws. Our country is a democracy. People who live here are never stripped of their rights. Again, that would be a dictatorship. NYC changed the rules of STRs according to the law. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to rob their citizens. Although, to many, it appears that way. Good news Is anyone who disagrees with the new limitations has the right to fight in a court room. If they win, it is because NYC violated the law not because they were stripping anyone of their rights.You seem to believe the government has powers to do as they wish. That is completely wrong.
Someone with a "Master's Degree" should know that the United States is a "Constitutional Republic"...
margaretmattson
09-08-2023, 07:38 PM
I think this thread became a problem because one poster did not look at the name of the person who was asking questions. Another interfered. Then one defended. Then one reminded. Then one deleted. Then another deleted. Then one acquiesced. And who knows what else! What a mess!
margaretmattson
09-08-2023, 07:43 PM
Someone with a "Master's Degree" should know that the United States is a "Constitutional Republic"... I did not see that brought up. Saw quite a bit of chaos. So, maybe I missed it. But, I believe we are a democratic republic. At this point, who cares? The thread is a mess!
BrianL99
09-08-2023, 07:47 PM
I think this thread became a problem because one poster did not look at the name of the person who was asking questions. Another interfered. Then one defended. Then one reminded. Then one deleted. Then another deleted. Then one acquiesced. And who knows what else! What a mess!
I did not see that brought up. Saw quite a bit of chaos. So, maybe I missed it. But, I believe we are a democratic republic. At this point, who cares? The thread is a mess!
It's heartening to see someone sort out this entire thread, with a clear, simple and cogent analysis. I think the STR issue has been solved, once and for all.
JMintzer
09-08-2023, 08:41 PM
I did not see that brought up. Saw quite a bit of chaos. So, maybe I missed it. But, I believe we are a democratic republic. At this point, who cares? The thread is a mess!
From the Google Machine: "While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States."
margaretmattson
09-09-2023, 12:47 AM
From the Google Machine: "While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States." I believe you are now just picking and choosing "special wording.". A poster stated we live in a democracy with the constitution providing us with laws and rights each citizen lives by. The same as what you are saying. He then went on in detail to explain how it works. The poster then got backlashed. Maybe, they will believe it from you.
Who knows? Some people just like to argue instead of taking time to google it like you have done. Do yourself a favor. DONT RESPOND!!! Some will start asking you about things like mineral rights, slavery, college football players, and my personal favorite, The Emperor's New Clothes. I couldn't make this up if I tried! I think the poster who was attacked is never coming back to the forum. Lol. Gotta love this forum!
Normal
09-09-2023, 01:23 AM
I believe you are now just picking and choosing "special wording.". A poster in the above stated we live in a democracy with the constitution providing us with laws and rights each citizen lives by. The same as what you are saying. He then went on in detail to explain how it works. The poster then got backlashed. Maybe, they will believe it from you.
Wow, this thread has gone on a tangent of its own. Meandering to parts of unexpected consequence…lol
Now we are debating the US Constitution often attenuated with the Bill of Rights? Why not the Articles of Confederation too. Or let’s go back to the English Bill of Rights. Heck why not the essays of the Magna Carta? My the slope is slippery in argument. I’m not sure the number of differing argument diagrams can be calculated in a philosophy class?
My interpretation:
It’s great to hear freedom of speech while not infringing on another’s point of view. To know so much something of law and ignore the 5th, places some in a group I prefer to never be a part of.
margaretmattson
09-09-2023, 04:40 AM
Wow, this thread has gone on a tangent of its own. Meandering to parts of unexpected consequence…lol
Now we are debating the US Constitution often attenuated with the Bill of Rights? Why not the Articles of Confederation too. Or let’s go back to the English Bill of Rights. Heck why not the essays of the Magna Carta? My the slope is slippery in argument. I’m not sure the number of differing argument diagrams can be calculated in a philosophy class?
My interpretation:
It’s great to hear freedom of speech while not infringing on another’s point of view. To know so much something of law and ignore the 5th, places some in a group I prefer to never be a part of. Please don't encourage them. They will ask someone to explain nonsense like Pope Innocent III, Henry VIII, statues remaining that glorify the old south, Amendent 13, eminent domain, lawn ornaments in the Villages, Humpty Dumpty, or whatever else comes to their minds. #clickbait.
Silence is golden
Velvet
09-09-2023, 09:45 AM
Hey, this thread is getting even more interesting… we can meander here and there but just wait till the horde of STR renters arrive!
JMintzer
09-09-2023, 04:32 PM
I believe you are now just picking and choosing "special wording.". A poster stated we live in a democracy with the constitution providing us with laws and rights each citizen lives by. The same as what you are saying. He then went on in detail to explain how it works. The poster then got backlashed. Maybe, they will believe it from you.
Who knows? Some people just like to argue instead of taking time to google it like you have done. Do yourself a favor. DONT RESPOND!!! Some will start asking you about things like mineral rights, slavery, college football players, and my personal favorite, The Emperor's New Clothes. I couldn't make this up if I tried! I think the poster who was attacked is never coming back to the forum. Lol. Gotta love this forum!
No "picking and choosing" involved. In a "democracy", Majority Rules. The Founders were quite specific that they did not want that to be the case...
The only "picking and choosing" I do is in regard to what posts I respond.
Sometimes. my choice is to ignore them...
JMintzer
09-09-2023, 04:35 PM
Wow, this thread has gone on a tangent of its own. Meandering to parts of unexpected consequence…lol
Now we are debating the US Constitution often attenuated with the Bill of Rights? Why not the Articles of Confederation too. Or let’s go back to the English Bill of Rights. Heck why not the essays of the Magna Carta? My the slope is slippery in argument. I’m not sure the number of differing argument diagrams can be calculated in a philosophy class?
https://j.gifs.com/mQrgWR@facebook.gif
Normal
09-10-2023, 07:03 AM
You know this morning’s news has a 20 year old Villages AirBnB renter getting away from the court system. They can come in, abuse (in this case), and leave town going back to their lives, while we have to endure their pleasures.
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/09/court-cant-find-20-year-old-airbnber-arrested-in-the-villages/
This shouldn’t be what buying in the Villages is all about.
Randall55
09-10-2023, 07:11 AM
You know this morning’s news has a 20 year old Villages AirBnB renter getting away from the court system. They can come in, abuse (in this case), and leave town going back to their lives, while we have to endure their pleasures.
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/09/court-cant-find-20-year-old-airbnber-arrested-in-the-villages/
This shouldn’t be what buying in the Villages is all about. Nope! Taking yours and others' reminder. I hereby take the 5th! (but thanks for an interesting update)
Bill14564
09-10-2023, 07:20 AM
You know this morning’s news has a 20 year old Villages AirBnB renter getting away from the court system. They can come in, abuse (in this case), and leave town going back to their lives, while we have to endure their pleasures.
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/09/court-cant-find-20-year-old-airbnber-arrested-in-the-villages/
This shouldn’t be what buying in the Villages is all about.
Which of his pleasures are we enduring?
Other than the word airbnb, how does this support your position? The article doesn't say how long he had been in the home, it doesn't even say that he was the one renting the home.
The article indicates that he gave the airbnb address as his mailing address back in June when he was arrested. Remembering the address of the home during a stressful situation such as an arrest could be an indication that he was in the home for a while. I'll bet most people in a short term rental don't remember the address.
The original article states that he was identified through his Michigan drivers license. Shame on the Sumter county system if they didn't write down his Michigan drivers license number or the address on it.
JMintzer
09-10-2023, 07:32 AM
You know this morning’s news has a 20 year old Villages AirBnB renter getting away from the court system. They can come in, abuse (in this case), and leave town going back to their lives, while we have to endure their pleasures.
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/09/court-cant-find-20-year-old-airbnber-arrested-in-the-villages/
This shouldn’t be what buying in the Villages is all about.
Someone skipped bail? Excuse me while a compose myself from the shock...
golfing eagles
09-10-2023, 07:57 AM
Which of his pleasures are we enduring?
Other than the word airbnb, how does this support your position? The article doesn't say how long he had been in the home, it doesn't even say that he was the one renting the home.
The article indicates that he gave the airbnb address as his mailing address back in June when he was arrested. Remembering the address of the home during a stressful situation such as an arrest could be an indication that he was in the home for a while. I'll bet most people in a short term rental don't remember the address.
The original article states that he was identified through his Michigan drivers license. Shame on the Sumter county system if they didn't write down his Michigan drivers license number or the address on it.
I just don't understand the defense of STRs in a community like TV
OK, bottom line, which neighborhood would you prefer to live in:
a) Stable, mostly year round retirees who have a sense of neighborhood and community and watch out for each other
b) An endless stream of revolving door motel occupants with no ties to the neighborhood who couldn't care less about their noise, litter, parking, kids, etc.?
And after answering that, why would anyone defend choice B?
BrianL99
09-10-2023, 08:13 AM
Which of his pleasures are we enduring?
Other than the word airbnb, how does this support your position?
On TOTV, people don't need any "support" for their opinions, they just assume everyone wants to hear from them. How many times in life have we heard the words: "consider the source"?
I particular enjoy the "I'm not going to comment" or "I'm taking the 5th" type posts.
The most prolific poster in this thread, has been on TOTV for 20 days and according to his posts, "just bought a home here". With 160 posts in the 20 days he's been here, he hasn't had much time to find his way around TV, never mind have the time to experience the impact of STR's on the community.
Another prolific poster on the 2 recent threads on STR's has been on TOTV for barely 4 months and despite a "2 week vacation from TOTV", has found the time to make 400+ posts, on every subject under the sun ... 65 posts just on STR's!
Folks, if you haven't lived through a winter in TV, you don't have a clue about life in The Villages. If you spend most of your day at your computer keyboard, you need to get out and about.
tophcfa
09-10-2023, 08:19 AM
I just don't understand the defense of STRs in a community like TV
OK, bottom line, which neighborhood would you prefer to live in:
a) Stable, mostly year round retirees who have a sense of neighborhood and community and watch out for each other
b) An endless stream of revolving door motel occupants with no ties to the neighborhood who couldn't care less about their noise, litter, parking, kids, etc.?
And after answering that, why would anyone defend choice B?
Most likely defending STR’s because is a STR slumlord trying to justify their neighborhood disrupting activities.
Bill14564
09-10-2023, 08:28 AM
I just don't understand the defense of STRs in a community like TV
OK, bottom line, which neighborhood would you prefer to live in:
a) Stable, mostly year round retirees who have a sense of neighborhood and community and watch out for each other
b) An endless stream of revolving door motel occupants with no ties to the neighborhood who couldn't care less about their noise, litter, parking, kids, etc.?
And after answering that, why would anyone defend choice B?
In this particular case, my defense is against drawing conclusions with no evidence to back them up. It may be that the only thing this situation has to do with short term rentals is that the home is listed on airbnb. There is no information that the man was renting the home and there was no information that the home was rented for less than six months. The accusation of an assault and the word "airbnb" in the same article led to a big assumption in the post I commented on.
Overall, I object to more government interference into my life. I agreed to the restrictions currently on my deed, I don't agree to having those restrictions expanded. I don't want further restrictions on the color I can paint my driveway and I don't want further restrictions on what I can do in my home. There are already ordinances concerning noise, litter, and parking - if a resident (permanent, snowbird, 6-month renter, or 3-day renter) is causing a problem then utilize the local authorities to enforce those ordinances. Kids? I'm not old enough to be one of those "get off my lawn" people.
I don't currently don't live next to a problem rental property and perhaps my opinion would change if I did. There are three rental properties on my street and I don't know how long they are rented for but whoever lives there is causing no problems.
I still wonder (as I also mentioned in another post) are there really hundreds or thousands of problem short term rentals or have their been a small handful of problems that are being referenced to disparage an entire industry?
JMintzer
09-10-2023, 08:37 AM
I still wonder (as I also mentioned in another post) are there really hundreds or thousands of problem short term rentals or have their been a small handful of problems that are being referenced to disparage an entire industry?
That's a very good question... One in which I don't think anyone has they answer...
BrianL99
09-10-2023, 09:07 AM
.... I'm not old enough to be one of those "get off my lawn" people.
.... I don't currently don't live next to a problem rental property and perhaps my opinion would change if I did. ?
During the summer, I live in a resort/vacation area. We have 500 homes in the development, of which 100 are now used as STR's. Many of them are disruptive to the neighborhood, mostly because of the intensive use during the 10 week summer season.
We have 3 bedroom homes, hosting 12-15 people. Our water system can't supply water, our neighborhood roads can't handle the traffic, our beach isn't big enough and our land won't support the sewerage discharge, to say nothing of the fact, that "short term vacationers" aren't always the most considerate neighbors.
In The Villages, my street has 3-4 STR's I can see when I look out my front door. I have witnessed zero problems, other than perhaps, folks putting out their trash on the wrong day.
Just for the record, I'm philosophically opposed to STR's in a Residential Zone. I think over time, they destabilize neighborhoods. I believe The Villages marketing and deed restrictions preclude the use of single family homes, as motels.
I think the visceral response some folks have on the subject in The Villages, is more related to your statement above:: "I'm not old enough to be one of those "get off my lawn" people".
The Villages is without a doubt, the least "tolerant" community I've ever seen. As we get older, we seem more resistant to change and less accepting of inconvenience and/or the unexpected. Put 130,000+ seniors together and you have the perfect storm. If today is different than yesterday, something is wrong and it's not me. It's the "renters", it's the "snowbirds" or it's the Northerners (or the roundabouts, the hours at the pool or dogs pooping).
Luckily, we don't have many "minorities" (of the LGBQ, color or religious persuasion) in TV. If we did, we'd see intolerance rise to new heights.
Normal
09-10-2023, 09:31 AM
Everyone has his/her problems. My question is why ask for more? STR renters just add fuel to the fire after others are settled. The latest 20 year old senior citizen abuser is just an add on that should have never occurred. Instead some greedy landlord had to make extra bucks at our community’s expense. It wasn’t necessary.
Bill14564
09-10-2023, 09:43 AM
Everyone has his/her problems. My question is why ask for more? STR renters just add fuel to the fire after others are settled. The latest 20 year old senior citizen abuser is just an add on that should have never occurred. Instead some greedy landlord had to make extra bucks at our community’s expense. It wasn’t necessary.
I could not find anything in the article you linked to or the original article about the arrest that mentioned a senior citizen. That paper usually adds that information. Do you have another source for that claim?
And, you forgot the word "accused."
Velvet
09-10-2023, 10:29 AM
In this particular case, my defense is against drawing conclusions with no evidence to back them up. It may be that the only thing this situation has to do with short term rentals is that the home is listed on airbnb. There is no information that the man was renting the home and there was no information that the home was rented for less than six months. The accusation of an assault and the word "airbnb" in the same article led to a big assumption in the post I commented on.
Overall, I object to more government interference into my life. I agreed to the restrictions currently on my deed, I don't agree to having those restrictions expanded. I don't want further restrictions on the color I can paint my driveway and I don't want further restrictions on what I can do in my home. There are already ordinances concerning noise, litter, and parking - if a resident (permanent, snowbird, 6-month renter, or 3-day renter) is causing a problem then utilize the local authorities to enforce those ordinances. Kids? I'm not old enough to be one of those "get off my lawn" people.
I don't currently don't live next to a problem rental property and perhaps my opinion would change if I did. There are three rental properties on my street and I don't know how long they are rented for but whoever lives there is causing no problems.
I still wonder (as I also mentioned in another post) are there really hundreds or thousands of problem short term rentals or have their been a small handful of problems that are being referenced to disparage an entire industry?
Yes, for example, when you can’t get in your neighborhood swimming pool because there is no more chairs available because of all the STR and their guests etc, day after day, I would say there is a serious problem. How do I know they are renters? Because I talk to them and my neighbors regularly.
BrianL99
09-10-2023, 10:34 AM
Yes, for example, when you can’t get in your neighborhood swimming pool because there is no more chairs available because of all the STR and their guests etc, day after day, I would say there is a serious problem. How do I know they are renters? Because I talk to them and my neighbors regularly.
Do owners & their guests, use fewer chairs than renters & their guests?
Do owners "double up" and sit on each other's laps?
I see over-crowding at our beach in NH due to renters, but of the 4 or 5 STR's in my TV neighborhood, I've never seen one occupied by more than a "couple". I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I never see it.
Bill14564
09-10-2023, 11:00 AM
Yes, for example, when you can’t get in your neighborhood swimming pool because there is no more chairs available because of all the STR and their guests etc, day after day, I would say there is a serious problem. How do I know they are renters? Because I talk to them and my neighbors regularly.
So they are all over 30 and all have guest passes? If so, then is it the STRs that are overcrowding the pools or is it the guests of the “permanent “ people?
If they are not all over 30 or do not all have passes then use the mechanisms that exist to enforce the rules that exist
Velvet
09-10-2023, 11:27 AM
Do owners & their guests, use fewer chairs than renters & their guests?
Do owners "double up" and sit on each other's laps?
I see over-crowding at our beach in NH due to renters, but of the 4 or 5 STR's in my TV neighborhood, I've never seen one occupied by more than a "couple". I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I never see it.
Yes! Owners have guests some of the time not All the time. Owners usually accompany their family or friends often mentioning what the expectations are in TV. They are proud of who they invite and prefer neighbors to like them too. If grandson throws the peanut shells all over the pool grandmother picks it up in front of him. Don’t compare the owners guests to the average STR!
Also, we have had the SAME number of owners and their guests year after year as my neighborhood is 14 years old. It has always been pleasant even in the winter. Last year the STR hordes arrived.
I can see that what slum landlords are trying to do is desperately justify the polluting of the lifestyle intended for the residents by STRs.
Normal
09-10-2023, 01:00 PM
Yes!
I can see that what slum landlords are trying to do is desperately justify the polluting of the lifestyle intended for the residents by STRs.
True, all for money and indifference to those who earned their right to full time residency. The latest renter article tells of a 20 year old renter(are they ever vetted by landlords) making a female his personal punching bag.
We don’t know what this guy does outside the Villages. We just know he isn’t eligible normally to live here (unless he can find an STR). It’s a shame an STR owner thought it was OK.
Bill14564
09-10-2023, 01:06 PM
True, all for money and indifference to those who earned their right to full time residency. The latest renter article tells of a 20 year old renter(are they ever vetted by landlords) making a female his personal punching bag.
We don’t know what this guy does outside the Villages. We just know he isn’t eligible normally to live here (unless he can find an STR). It’s a shame an STR owner thought it was OK.
Also technically false. Forget technically, just plain false. Nothing at all preventing him from renting for a month ir a year. In fact, no reason to believe he had not rented for three months. But why let accuracy matter at this point?
Michael 61
09-10-2023, 01:06 PM
Question - it’s obvious who on this thread are the owners of STR’s - however, they adamantly refuse to admit it. Why? If I was an STR landlord, I would come out and say so. If I wasn’t a STR landlord, I wouldn’t be so passionate and over-board in defending them.
Normal
09-10-2023, 02:15 PM
Question - it’s obvious who on this thread are the owners of STR’s - however, they adamantly refuse to admit it. Why? If I was an STR landlord, I would come out and say so. If I wasn’t a STR landlord, I wouldn’t be so passionate and over-board in defending them.
I can tell you why, it is very unpopular to be an STR owner right now. Case in point: about a month ago some lady listed an STR “a place to stay for your extended family Yadda, Yadda….” on our village’s Facebook page. It was a pulled post within the half hour. Why, she was brutally bashed by all the locals as an STR owner. STR owners are not a popular group to be in right now.
Michael 61
09-10-2023, 02:40 PM
I can tell you why, it is very unpopular to be an STR owner right now. Case in point: about a month ago some lady listed an STR “a place to stay for your extended family Yadda, Yadda….” on our village’s Facebook page. It was a pulled post within the half hour. Why, she was brutally bashed by all the locals as an STR owner. STR owners are not a popular group to be in right now.
I guess you’re right - it just comes across as “dishonest’ to me to argue in favor of STR’s and not disclose you have a vested interest in seeing them flourish and succeed.
In my villa neighborhood, 50% of all new homes are not owner-occupied. Of that 50% that are rentals, half (or 25% of all villa properties) are STR’s. I have two STR’s across the street from me and one next door. One street over from me, there are 5 STRs in a row (all have for rent signs up in their windows as we speak) - obviously, this is the #1 conversation from neighbors here and at the pools - I have yet to talk to a single owner-resident in our village who favors STRs - Most of the STR landlords here are fellow villagers (I know this because over the last few months, I have met most of them, as they have stopped by to introduce themselves to me, and most have asked that I keep an eye on their respective properties and call them if anything seems to be out of the ordinary.
I try to avoid all the negative talk about STRs (I don’t like them, nor the noise, parking issues, garbage left out several days before trash pickup, etc), but what am I to do? I try to ignore the issue as best as I can, and enjoy my retirement, but it is definitely an issue, and the#1 gripe of most neighbors where I live.
Velvet
09-10-2023, 06:02 PM
I guess you’re right - it just comes across as “dishonest’ to me to argue in favor of STR’s and not disclose you have a vested interest in seeing them flourish and succeed.
In my villa neighborhood, 50% of all new homes are not owner-occupied. Of that 50% that are rentals, half (or 25% of all villa properties) are STR’s. I have two STR’s across the street from me and one next door. One street over from me, there are 5 STRs in a row (all have for rent signs up in their windows as we speak) - obviously, this is the #1 conversation from neighbors here and at the pools - I have yet to talk to a single owner-resident in our village who favors STRs - Most of the STR landlords here are fellow villagers (I know this because over the last few months, I have met most of them, as they have stopped by to introduce themselves to me, and most have asked that I keep an eye on their respective properties and call them if anything seems to be out of the ordinary.
I try to avoid all the negative talk about STRs (I don’t like them, nor the noise, parking issues, garbage left out several days before trash pickup, etc), but what am I to do? I try to ignore the issue as best as I can, and enjoy my retirement, but it is definitely an issue, and the#1 gripe of most neighbors where I live.
Careful! If you give an inch, they’ll take a mile.
margaretmattson
09-11-2023, 12:34 AM
During the summer, I live in a resort/vacation area. We have 500 homes in the development, of which 100 are now used as STR's. Many of them are disruptive to the neighborhood, mostly because of the intensive use during the 10 week summer season.
We have 3 bedroom homes, hosting 12-15 people. Our water system can't supply water, our neighborhood roads can't handle the traffic, our beach isn't big enough and our land won't support the sewerage discharge, to say nothing of the fact, that "short term vacationers" aren't always the most considerate neighbors.
In The Villages, my street has 3-4 STR's I can see when I look out my front door. I have witnessed zero problems, other than perhaps, folks putting out their trash on the wrong day.
Just for the record, I'm philosophically opposed to STR's in a Residential Zone. I think over time, they destabilize neighborhoods. I believe The Villages marketing and deed restrictions preclude the use of single family homes, as motels.
I think the visceral response some folks have on the subject in The Villages, is more related to your statement above:: "I'm not old enough to be one of those "get off my lawn" people".
The Villages is without a doubt, the least "tolerant" community I've ever seen. As we get older, we seem more resistant to change and less accepting of inconvenience and/or the unexpected. Put 130,000+ seniors together and you have the perfect storm. If today is different than yesterday, something is wrong and it's not me. It's the "renters", it's the "snowbirds" or it's the Northerners (or the roundabouts, the hours at the pool or dogs pooping).
Luckily, we don't have many "minorities" (of the LGBQ, color or religious persuasion) in TV. If we did, we'd see intolerance rise to new heights.Wow! What kind of resort area do you live in during the summer? One with outhouses and a community well? I find it hard to believe a resort/vacation area is not equipped with proper water and sewage.
I have been here 20+ years and would not describe anyone as intolerant. Vocal, yes! Apt to use words that were not considered harmful years ago? Yes, but bring it to their attention and they take note. I do not know what Village you live in but mine has quite a few minorities and some of the LGBQ community. I am proud to call them my friends because they are good people.
This is a forum where people present their views. What one does in a general debate does not determine who a person is. Perhaps you take TOTV too seriously.
Forgive me! I am old enough to be one of those "get of my lawn" people. The youth have no more rights than the elderly population. Mock us as they may, some day, they will get old. Do you think they will want to live with the rules of their youth? As an adult, I believe it is my responsibility to guide youth; not acquiesce to them.
margaretmattson
09-11-2023, 12:53 AM
On TOTV, people don't need any "support" for their opinions, they just assume everyone wants to hear from them. How many times in life have we heard the words: "consider the source"?
I particular enjoy the "I'm not going to comment" or "I'm taking the 5th" type posts.
The most prolific poster in this thread, has been on TOTV for 20 days and according to his posts, "just bought a home here". With 160 posts in the 20 days he's been here, he hasn't had much time to find his way around TV, never mind have the time to experience the impact of STR's on the community.
Another prolific poster on the 2 recent threads on STR's has been on TOTV for barely 4 months and despite a "2 week vacation from TOTV", has found the time to make 400+ posts, on every subject under the sun ... 65 posts just on STR's!
Folks, if you haven't lived through a winter in TV, you don't have a clue about life in The Villages. If you spend most of your day at your computer keyboard, you need to get out and about.
hmmm...a new person who posts 8 times a day? I suspect probably just getting accquainted with TOTV. Most of his/her posts are probably three or 4 words long. But, who cares? BTW: There is an ignore feature. You do not have to take the time to denounce posters. Just press and go!
I counted your today's posts on this thread since you seem to want to zero in on this subject matter. You posted 3 in one day! Goodness! Three? Did you post on other threads, too? "Considering the source," that is too many.
Now, let's look at the other poster you object to. A person who has been on the forum for 4 months and posts an average of 3-4 times a day? I believe some post more but I don't have the time nor the interest to look at everyone's stats. (As if they actually mean something). Take your own advice. Step away from the computer and get out and about. Maybe, you will run into the other two posters who you requested do the same.
Glowfromminnesota
09-11-2023, 07:10 AM
I watched The Village Newcomers one day and someone just bought a new home. He was so excited to move to The Villages only to find out that an investor bought his entire block for rentals. What a sad feeling to be the only actual homeowner on a block. That should not be allowed. Just saying.
golfing eagles
09-11-2023, 07:15 AM
I watched The Village Newcomers one day and someone just bought a new home. He was so excited to move to The Villages only to find out that an investor bought his entire block for rentals. What a sad feeling to be the only actual homeowner on a block. That should not be allowed. Just saying.
If true, I couldn't agree more. I do have to question how someone could put in paperwork for an entire block, and get it, given the competitive nature of the market.
Normal
09-11-2023, 10:34 AM
If true, I couldn't agree more. I do have to question how someone could put in paperwork for an entire block, and get it, given the competitive nature of the market.
This has to be a major point for elections. Commissioners and representatives need to be pronounced on their standings for STRs. The majority are against them and the message needs to be loud and clear.
Today’s news :
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/10/sex-offender-convicted-of-molesting-child-moves-into-rented-villa-in-the-villages/
A convicted child molester (12 year old in 2019)found his way into The Villages thanks to a rental.
golfing eagles
09-11-2023, 10:41 AM
This has to be a major point for elections. Commissioners and representatives need to be pronounced on their standings for STRs. The majority are against them and the message needs to be loud and clear.
But, as usual, the question will be which politicians are willing to address the problem and which are only giving lip service to the problem to get elected?
Cybersprings
09-11-2023, 11:01 AM
This has to be a major point for elections. Commissioners and representatives need to be pronounced on their standings for STRs. The majority are against them and the message needs to be loud and clear.
Today’s news :
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/10/sex-offender-convicted-of-molesting-child-moves-into-rented-villa-in-the-villages/
A convicted child molester (12 year old in 2019)found his way into The Villages thanks to a rental.
1. What do you base your statement that the majority are against STRs on? Counting people who post on TOTV, from talking to your neighbors? Not sure that would be considered scientific. Is there a poll of all villagers that you are quoting from?
2. To be perfectly honest, I do not want BAD short term renters beside me. But I also don't want full time neighbors that let their dog loose to do their business in the flowers in the circle in front of my house or in my yard, but that is what I have.
3. I also do not want more restrictions on what I can do with my property. I bought my property with one set of restrictions, and they should not change after I purchased it in such a substantive way. If I can live in the villages 6 months a year because I am able to rent it out the other 6 months of the year, then I should be allowed to do it (if those are the conditions under which I purchased my property). BTW, I have never rented my property for a single minute since I purchased 10 years ago.
4. Which do you perfer, a permanent convicted child molester or one that is there for only a week? Or are you saying that the villages does background checks on all purchases (through the villages and by owner) precluding permanent residents with a record?
BrianL99
09-11-2023, 11:06 AM
This has to be a major point for elections. Commissioners and representatives need to be pronounced on their standings for STRs. The majority are against them and the message needs to be loud and clear.
Today’s news :
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/10/sex-offender-convicted-of-molesting-child-moves-into-rented-villa-in-the-villages/
A convicted child molester (12 year old in 2019)found his way into The Villages thanks to a rental.
Is there a Deed Restriction against Sex Offenders buying a home in The Villages? Maybe he had to rent, because he couldn't afford to buy? Those pesky legal bills could have put a dent in his stock portfolio.
I'm not advocating that TV offer itself as a haven for Registered Sex Offenders, but better to have them in TV, than some family neighborhood with a zillion kids running around.
Bill14564
09-11-2023, 11:07 AM
...
Today’s news :
https://www.**************.com/2023/09/10/sex-offender-convicted-of-molesting-child-moves-into-rented-villa-in-the-villages/
A convicted child molester (12 year old in 2019)found his way into The Villages thanks to a rental.
And you have some reason to believe this was a short-term rental, right; or are you now arguing to stop ALL rentals in the Villages?
Velvet
09-11-2023, 11:07 AM
1. What do you base your statement that the majority are against STRs on? Counting people who post on TOTV, from talking to your neighbors? Not sure that would be considered scientific. Is there a poll of all villagers that you are quoting from?
2. To be perfectly honest, I do not want BAD short term renters beside me. But I also don't want full time neighbors that let their dog loose to do their business in the flowers in the circle in front of my house or in my yard, but that is what I have.
3. I also do not want more restrictions on what I can do with my property. I bought my property with one set of restrictions, and they should not change after I purchased it in such a substantive way. If I can live in the villages 6 months a year because I am able to rent it out the other 6 months of the year, then I should be allowed to do it (if those are the conditions under which I purchased my property). BTW, I have never rented my property for a single minute since I purchased 10 years ago.
4. Which do you perfer, a permanent convicted child molester or one that is there for only a week? Or are you saying that the villages does background checks on all purchases (through the villages and by owner) precluding permanent residents with a record?
Those are not the only options. And you can rent out your property for say, a month or more with much less people complaining about it. Owners do usually run background checks, your home, your furniture, your kitchen things, don’t you want to know WHO is using them or abusing them, before you come back for the next 6 months?
Normal
09-11-2023, 11:13 AM
And you have some reason to believe this was a short-term rental, right; or are you now arguing to stop ALL rentals in the Villages?
Nope, just against the accommodation of the needs of a renter/child abuser sex offender. I’m against it and of course along with other transient clientele.
AirBnBs bring crime. Just this morning we had a shooting at an AirBnB outside Orlando in Davenport resulting in one dead and one wounded at a birthday party celebration.
Man shot to death, woman injured during birthday party at Florida Airbnb, deputies say (https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/09/11/man-shot-to-death-woman-injured-during-birthday-party-at-florida-airbnb-deputies-say/)
BrianL99
09-11-2023, 11:27 AM
I’m against it and of course along with other transient clientele.
AirBnBs bring crime.
I think the statistic show that alcohol is a much better indicator of increased crime, than renting vacationers.
Is there any reason not to ban alcohol in TV?
Caymus
09-11-2023, 11:57 AM
Is there a Deed Restriction against Sex Offenders buying a home in The Villages? Maybe he had to rent, because he couldn't afford to buy? Those pesky legal bills could have put a dent in his stock portfolio.
I'm not advocating that TV offer itself as a haven for Registered Sex Offenders, but better to have them in TV, than some family neighborhood with a zillion kids running around.
Are you being facetious?
Normal
09-11-2023, 12:01 PM
I think the statistic show that alcohol is a much better indicator of increased crime, than renting vacationers.
Is there any reason not to ban alcohol in TV?
Hey, notice this happened in the town adjacent to Orlando. Davenport has no STR enforcement. Orlando requires the landlord to live in the building they rent out. I guess STR control is good for the community. Davenport should move into a stronger enforcement rule and adopt Orlando’s stance.
BrianL99
09-11-2023, 12:23 PM
Hey, notice this happened in the town adjacent to Orlando. Davenport has no STR enforcement. Orlando requires the landlord to live in the building they rent out. I guess STR control is good for the community. Davenport should move into a stronger enforcement rule and adopt Orlando’s stance.
People who post, really should get their facts reasonably straight, before engaging their keyboard.
The City of Orlando has PROHIBITED Short Term Rentals in the Residential Zoning District, since 1991.
This prohibition was IN PLACE, prior to the State of Florida enacting a law that PROHIBITED cities and towns from regulating STR's.
In 2018, the City of Orlando RELAXED it's ban on STR's and now allows them, under certain restrictions. STR's are good for business in a vacation/resort area.
If you would like some understanding of how and why the City of Orlando was "Grandfathered" and was able to keep their STR ban in place, despite the new Florida law prohibiting STR bans, go back and read my Post #102 (part of which is below).
There are *some* towns (& perhaps states) that have "beat the STR problem". It has to do with the way the community (or Zoning Authority) defines "Residential Use".
When the majority of Zoning Regulations were written, STR's didn't exist, so they typically weren't addressed in zoning schemes. Some zoning authorities (mostly by accident) decided to define "Transient Use" in their zoning scheme. Those communities (or states) have avoided the STR battles, because most don't allow "Transient Use" in their Residential Districts.
In other words, if a zoning scheme doesn't specifically define "transient use", most courts have concluded that STR's fall into the definition of "Residential". (BTW, some of the communities in FL that are "Grandfathered" with respect to their STR Regulations [I believe there are 75 of them], are Grandfathered because their zoning scheme defines "transient use" and prohibit that usage in a residentially zoned district.)
BrianL99
09-11-2023, 12:25 PM
Are you being facetious?
No.
If we're not allowed to simply shoot them, they have to live somewhere.
I'd rather they were in TV, than in a neighborhood of children.
I think TV has one of the highest percentage of gun owners in the USA. We can take care of ourselves, kids can't.
Cybersprings
09-11-2023, 12:28 PM
Those are not the only options. And you can rent out your property for say, a month or more with much less people complaining about it. Owners do usually run background checks, your home, your furniture, your kitchen things, don’t you want to know WHO is using them or abusing them, before you come back for the next 6 months?
1. I was responding to a post that said a convicted child abuser had gotten into the villages via short term rental (as if it was only a a result of STR that they "got in"). (One of) the point I was making was that, an owner could be a convicted child abuser, so blaming STRs for that was crazy, unless someone was telling me that the villages does back ground searches on all sales of all properties in the villages to preclue that. And that I would rather have a convicted child molester around for short term than permanent.
2. Are you saying that by definition, someone who rents for 30 days is of better character than those who rent for 29 days or less? Or is the dividing point between people who are acceptable in the villages 7 days vs 8 days? Or some other arbitrary number?
3. Are the numer of complaints the correct metric? or is it the number of problems/issues caused?
Bill14564
09-11-2023, 01:17 PM
Nope, just against the accommodation of the needs of a renter/child abuser sex offender. I’m against it and of course along with other transient clientele.
AirBnBs bring crime. Just this morning we had a shooting at an AirBnB outside Orlando in Davenport resulting in one dead and one wounded at a birthday party celebration.
Man shot to death, woman injured during birthday party at Florida Airbnb, deputies say (https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/09/11/man-shot-to-death-woman-injured-during-birthday-party-at-florida-airbnb-deputies-say/)
I can’t figure out what your point is…
Having an Airbnb in the neighborhood is dangerous because someone might be shot in front of it?
Visiting an airbnb is dangerous because someone might come by and shoot you?
Criminals are more likely to shoot you in front of an airbnb?
Birthday parties are dangerous because people get shot when talking to criminals in cars that drive by?
Or is your point simply that the word airbnb appeared in an article about a crime?
Velvet
09-11-2023, 01:18 PM
1. I was responding to a post that said a convicted child abuser had gotten into the villages via short term rental (as if it was only a a result of STR that they "got in"). (One of) the point I was making was that, an owner could be a convicted child abuser, so blaming STRs for that was crazy, unless someone was telling me that the villages does back ground searches on all sales of all properties in the villages to preclue that. And that I would rather have a convicted child molester around for short term than permanent.
2. Are you saying that by definition, someone who rents for 30 days is of better character than those who rent for 29 days or less? Or is the dividing point between people who are acceptable in the villages 7 days vs 8 days? Or some other arbitrary number?
3. Are the numer of complaints the correct metric? or is it the number of problems/issues caused?
Number 1. It is not “The Villages” it is the homeowner who does the background checks, unless they are a slum lord in the first place.
Number 2. Yes. By observation.
Number 3. I don’t know if the number of complaints are imperial or metric but they are NUMEROUS.
Cybersprings
09-11-2023, 01:40 PM
Number 1. It is not “The Villages” it is the homeowner who does the background checks, unless they are a slum lord in the first place.
Number 2. Yes. By observation.
Number 3. I don’t know if the number of complaints are imperial or metric but they are NUMEROUS.
This is going from bad to worse.
1. Do you know of a single person who did a background check on the person(s) to whom they were SELLING their homes? Do you consider someone who SELLS their home to someone without a background check a slumlord? Maybe that is why we are having issues because we don't agree on definitions. From oxford dictionary:
slumlord: a landlord of slum property, especially one who profiteers.
a. someone who SELLS is not a landlord
b. the villages has very few "slum" properties.
2. Wow. Your observation. Is that a universal standard or does it only apply to the villages? I am curious as to the size of your sample.
3. My question was, is the number of complaints the proper method of measure or is it the actual problems? If one person complains 100 times, but they are the only one who sees any problem, is that worse than a situation where all 30 people that live nearby complain because the person is disturbing all of them, driving on their grass, blocking their driveways, etc.
golfing eagles
09-11-2023, 01:43 PM
1. I was responding to a post that said a convicted child abuser had gotten into the villages via short term rental (as if it was only a a result of STR that they "got in"). (One of) the point I was making was that, an owner could be a convicted child abuser, so blaming STRs for that was crazy, unless someone was telling me that the villages does back ground searches on all sales of all properties in the villages to preclue that. And that I would rather have a convicted child molester around for short term than permanent.
2. Are you saying that by definition, someone who rents for 30 days is of better character than those who rent for 29 days or less? Or is the dividing point between people who are acceptable in the villages 7 days vs 8 days? Or some other arbitrary number?
3. Are the numer of complaints the correct metric? or is it the number of problems/issues caused?
You're right---whether a full time owner or a 3 day renter, you can get stuck with a problem child.
However, I think I'll commit a politically incorrect faux pas (like I've never done it before:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) and "profile" some of the neighbors one might encounter if the property next to you gets sold:
a) Year round owner.
Probably your best lottery draw, although there are exceptions. The down side: If they suck, you're stuck with them long term, or you move. But 99% of the time you should be fine
b) Snowbird/Snowflake, especially occupying 6+ months and vacant the rest of the year.
Should do fine, they have the pride of ownership and are part of "the hood" when they are here. Usually enlist neighbors help to watch out for their property.
c) Same as b), as well as those who bought for a retirement in the relatively near term, but rent the house out for no less than 1 month leases while they are away.
Again, not usually a problem. They usually have a management company vet prospective tenants and keep the place clean, and again feel invested in the neighborhood.
d) Property bought solely on speculation to rent out, but haven't excluded moving into at some future date. Also renting out for a minimum of 1 month
Getting a bit less desirable, but usually responsive to legitimate complaints
e) Property solely bought as an investment to run THE BUSINESS of STR/Airbnb. Motivated solely by income, will rent to anyone, couldn't care less about the neighborhood or the community. And what type of renter does such a place attract? Certainly not a nice 65 year old couple looking seriously at moving here. No, it attracts 20 somethings, young families with kids, especially teenagers, partiers who view TV as centrally located, bargain hunters, maybe someone with an RV looking to stay in one place for a little bit. Late night drunken parties?? why not? Kids run amok??? sure. Disrespect neighbor's property. Of course.
So, yes, there is no arbitrary time frame for getting a good or bad neighbor, but which scenario do you think is most likely to yield the proverbial rotten apple? And of course, if STRs were such a good thing, why are all these people on TOTV complaining. Why has Clearwater effectively banned them. Why has Orlando and now NYC taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation?
There are appropriate places for STR---they're called motels
If the identity of TV is a 55+ active lifestyle retirement community, then we should take steps to preserve our identity before we become a motel shantytown, with all the crime and other problems that come with that.
Normal
09-11-2023, 02:24 PM
You're right---whether a full time owner or a 3 day renter, you can get stuck with a problem child.
However, I think I'll commit a politically incorrect faux pas (like I've never done it before:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) and "profile" some of the neighbors one might encounter if the property next to you gets sold:
a) Year round owner.
Probably your best lottery draw, although there are exceptions. The down side: If they suck, you're stuck with them long term, or you move. But 99% of the time you should be fine
b) Snowbird/Snowflake, especially occupying 6+ months and vacant the rest of the year.
Should do fine, they have the pride of ownership and are part of "the hood" when they are here. Usually enlist neighbors help to watch out for their property.
c) Same as b), as well as those who bought for a retirement in the relatively near term, but rent the house out for no less than 1 month leases while they are away.
Again, not usually a problem. They usually have a management company vet prospective tenants and keep the place clean, and again feel invested in the neighborhood.
d) Property bought solely on speculation to rent out, but haven't excluded moving into at some future date. Also renting out for a minimum of 1 month
Getting a bit less desirable, but usually responsive to legitimate complaints
e) Property solely bought as an investment to run THE BUSINESS of STR/Airbnb. Motivated solely by income, will rent to anyone, couldn't care less about the neighborhood or the community. And what type of renter does such a place attract? Certainly not a nice 65 year old couple looking seriously at moving here. No, it attracts 20 somethings, young families with kids, especially teenagers, partiers who view TV as centrally located, bargain hunters, maybe someone with an RV looking to stay in one place for a little bit. Late night drunken parties?? why not? Kids run amok??? sure. Disrespect neighbor's property. Of course.
So, yes, there is no arbitrary time frame for getting a good or bad neighbor, but which scenario do you think is most likely to yield the proverbial rotten apple? And of course, if STRs were such a good thing, why are all these people on TOTV complaining. Why has Clearwater effectively banned them. Why has Orlando and now NYC taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation?
There are appropriate places for STR---they're called motels
If the identity of TV is a 55+ active lifestyle retirement community, then we should take steps to preserve our identity before we become a motel shantytown, with all the crime and other problems that come with that.
Great Points. Spot on!
Cybersprings
09-11-2023, 03:03 PM
You're right---whether a full time owner or a 3 day renter, you can get stuck with a problem child.
However, I think I'll commit a politically incorrect faux pas (like I've never done it before:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) and "profile" some of the neighbors one might encounter if the property next to you gets sold:
a) Year round owner.
Probably your best lottery draw, although there are exceptions. The down side: If they suck, you're stuck with them long term, or you move. But 99% of the time you should be fine
b) Snowbird/Snowflake, especially occupying 6+ months and vacant the rest of the year.
Should do fine, they have the pride of ownership and are part of "the hood" when they are here. Usually enlist neighbors help to watch out for their property.
c) Same as b), as well as those who bought for a retirement in the relatively near term, but rent the house out for no less than 1 month leases while they are away.
Again, not usually a problem. They usually have a management company vet prospective tenants and keep the place clean, and again feel invested in the neighborhood.
d) Property bought solely on speculation to rent out, but haven't excluded moving into at some future date. Also renting out for a minimum of 1 month
Getting a bit less desirable, but usually responsive to legitimate complaints
e) Property solely bought as an investment to run THE BUSINESS of STR/Airbnb. Motivated solely by income, will rent to anyone, couldn't care less about the neighborhood or the community. And what type of renter does such a place attract? Certainly not a nice 65 year old couple looking seriously at moving here. No, it attracts 20 somethings, young families with kids, especially teenagers, partiers who view TV as centrally located, bargain hunters, maybe someone with an RV looking to stay in one place for a little bit. Late night drunken parties?? why not? Kids run amok??? sure. Disrespect neighbor's property. Of course.
So, yes, there is no arbitrary time frame for getting a good or bad neighbor, but which scenario do you think is most likely to yield the proverbial rotten apple? And of course, if STRs were such a good thing, why are all these people on TOTV complaining. Why has Clearwater effectively banned them. Why has Orlando and now NYC taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation?
There are appropriate places for STR---they're called motels
If the identity of TV is a 55+ active lifestyle retirement community, then we should take steps to preserve our identity before we become a motel shantytown, with all the crime and other problems that come with that.
You KNOW I'd love to argue with you, but since you didn't state it as fact, I would probably agree with your assessment. I have been unlucky enough to get a full time problem neighbor (not huge problem), but then again, ask them about me :22yikes:
golfing eagles
09-11-2023, 03:10 PM
You KNOW I'd love to argue with you, but since you didn't state it as fact, I would probably agree with your assessment. I have been unlucky enough to get a full time problem neighbor (not huge problem), but then again, ask them about me :22yikes:
I think I already got the idea 😂😂😂
BrianL99
09-11-2023, 04:24 PM
Why has Orlando and now NYC taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation?
.
Orlando has done the opposite.
They used to be prohibited in Residential Districts, now Orlando allows them.
I know it's sometime inconvenient to ascertain the facts, but facts matter.
Whether NYC has "taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation", is debatable. NYC now requires"Registration" if you operate an STR and requires you to pay the proper taxes. They didn't do anything that changes what properties can be used as an STR.
Facts matter.
golfing eagles
09-11-2023, 05:02 PM
Orlando has done the opposite.
They used to be prohibited in Residential Districts, now Orlando allows them.
I know it's sometime inconvenient to ascertain the facts, but facts matter.
Whether NYC has "taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation", is debatable. NYC now requires"Registration" if you operate an STR and requires you to pay the proper taxes. They didn't do anything that changes what properties can be used as an STR.
Facts matter.
And Clearwater? So you’re arguing STRs are good?
BrianL99
09-11-2023, 05:27 PM
And Clearwater? So you’re arguing STRs are good?
Not at all. Merely pointing out that the information you posted about Orlando & NYC isn't factual.
As for Clearwater, if you take the time to read my Post #102, it explains exactly how Clearwater was able to be Grandfathered and have the power to regulate STR's.
People on this thread don't seem to want to deal with the facts.
The land in The Villages is subject to the underlying zoning of the town/county it's located in. The CDD's don't have zoning power, nor can the CDD's ban STR's, pursuant to Florida Law.
The only possible way to significantly change the STR situation in TV that I can think of, is to get a Judge to rule that either the underlying zoning prohibits them and did prior to 2011, or the "business use" language in the Deed Restrictions prohibits them.
margaretmattson
09-11-2023, 08:03 PM
That’s old. Under DeSantis, cities and counties can pass their own regulations. Look to the City if St Augustine as an example. Short Term Rentals | St. Augustine, FL (https://www.citystaug.com/830/Short-Term-Rentals)
I wish some would stop posting their outdated information. 0n this thread, they were corrected. (See above) Corrected again, and now again. What is the purpose of posting old information over, and over, and, over? Turn the page! CURRENT information would be appreciated. This is 2023 not 2003!
For Example: In April 2023, Florida Senate Passed Short Term Rental Bill
margaretmattson
09-11-2023, 09:18 PM
No.
If we're not allowed to simply shoot them, they have to live somewhere.
I'd rather they were in TV, than in a neighborhood of children.
I think TV has one of the highest percentage of gun owners in the USA. We can take care of ourselves, kids can't.
You think TV is one of the highest percentage of gun owners in the USA? You need to get out of your cocoon. If you own a gun, take it to Texas or any rural area in the USA and see how you will fare.
margaretmattson
09-11-2023, 11:20 PM
You're right---whether a full time owner or a 3 day renter, you can get stuck with a problem child.
However, I think I'll commit a politically incorrect faux pas (like I've never done it before:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) and "profile" some of the neighbors one might encounter if the property next to you gets sold:
a) Year round owner.
Probably your best lottery draw, although there are exceptions. The down side: If they suck, you're stuck with them long term, or you move. But 99% of the time you should be fine
b) Snowbird/Snowflake, especially occupying 6+ months and vacant the rest of the year.
Should do fine, they have the pride of ownership and are part of "the hood" when they are here. Usually enlist neighbors help to watch out for their property.
c) Same as b), as well as those who bought for a retirement in the relatively near term, but rent the house out for no less than 1 month leases while they are away.
Again, not usually a problem. They usually have a management company vet prospective tenants and keep the place clean, and again feel invested in the neighborhood.
d) Property bought solely on speculation to rent out, but haven't excluded moving into at some future date. Also renting out for a minimum of 1 month
Getting a bit less desirable, but usually responsive to legitimate complaints
e) Property solely bought as an investment to run THE BUSINESS of STR/Airbnb. Motivated solely by income, will rent to anyone, couldn't care less about the neighborhood or the community. And what type of renter does such a place attract? Certainly not a nice 65 year old couple looking seriously at moving here. No, it attracts 20 somethings, young families with kids, especially teenagers, partiers who view TV as centrally located, bargain hunters, maybe someone with an RV looking to stay in one place for a little bit. Late night drunken parties?? why not? Kids run amok??? sure. Disrespect neighbor's property. Of course.
So, yes, there is no arbitrary time frame for getting a good or bad neighbor, but which scenario do you think is most likely to yield the proverbial rotten apple? And of course, if STRs were such a good thing, why are all these people on TOTV complaining. Why has Clearwater effectively banned them. Why has Orlando and now NYC taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation?
There are appropriate places for STR---they're called motels
If the identity of TV is a 55+ active lifestyle retirement community, then we should take steps to preserve our identity before we become a motel shantytown, with all the crime and other problems that come with that. Great post. You forgot to mention one group of people. YouTubers who come to the Villages, stay at an STR, and film what a great time they are having. On their videos they are seen playing tennis, swimming, pickleball, shooting pool, etc. The biggest perk, our dear fans, they ask. You get to drive around in a provided golf cart! The cost of all this? You are not going to believe this, dear fans, it's all free! That's right! Rent a home and all of this is free!
My stomach churns when I watch these videos. Free advertisement for the STR owners that goes out to the masses.
On another note: While looking at preowned homes for sale, one listing caught my attention. It is described as a ready-to-go STR/AIRbnb. 4338 Zeppelin Road. (Listings on MLS are not private. I am doing no harm by posting the address) Is this a new way to sell homes??
golfing eagles
09-12-2023, 06:30 AM
Orlando has done the opposite.
They used to be prohibited in Residential Districts, now Orlando allows them.
I know it's sometime inconvenient to ascertain the facts, but facts matter.
Whether NYC has "taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation", is debatable. NYC now requires"Registration" if you operate an STR and requires you to pay the proper taxes. They didn't do anything that changes what properties can be used as an STR.
Facts matter.
OK, facts matter-----so here are THE FACTS, not your assertions:
Yes, Orlando allows STR in residential zones, but with the following , rather severe restrictions (from the Orlando City Website):
In the City of Orlando, a short term rental (STR) is a rental period of fewer than 30 days. Hosts can Apply Online for Home Sharing Registration.
The Home Sharing Ordinance has the following requirements:
During all guest stays, the host must be present. A resident does not have to be the property owner, but they must prove that it is their primary residence. To operate as a short term rental, they must also acquire notarized permission from the landlord or owner.
Hosts can offer only a part of the property for rent. While STR operators are not permitted to rent out their entire house, they can rent up to half of the home’s total number of bedrooms. Owners of duplexes are permitted to rent out the complete second unit provided it is of equal or smaller size and situated on the same development site.
Only a single STR booking at a time. The STR ordinance restricts hosts to just one booking at a time. They can have a maximum of two guests per room and no more than four non-family members at one time in a short term rental.
Home Owners Association’s approval is required. If applicable, hosts may also require approval from the HOA. If the property is a part of an HOA, the rental registration must be accompanied by a permission letter.
Proof of registration should be linked to any online advertising. Hosts must ensure that home-sharing registration proof is included with an online advertisement. The property’s online advertisement must reflect the ordinance’s criteria, such as one bedroom available for home sharing in a three-bedroom house.
I would think those restrictions would pretty much end STRs in private homes anywhere they are enacted.
So, THERE ARE YOUR FACTS
Robnlaura
09-12-2023, 06:57 AM
STRs are only a money making opportunity nothing else.. they do nothing for an area you might think it raises your values but it will come back to bite you..
Michael 61
09-12-2023, 07:11 AM
You're right---whether a full time owner or a 3 day renter, you can get stuck with a problem child.
However, I think I'll commit a politically incorrect faux pas (like I've never done it before:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:) and "profile" some of the neighbors one might encounter if the property next to you gets sold:
a) Year round owner.
Probably your best lottery draw, although there are exceptions. The down side: If they suck, you're stuck with them long term, or you move. But 99% of the time you should be fine
b) Snowbird/Snowflake, especially occupying 6+ months and vacant the rest of the year.
Should do fine, they have the pride of ownership and are part of "the hood" when they are here. Usually enlist neighbors help to watch out for their property.
c) Same as b), as well as those who bought for a retirement in the relatively near term, but rent the house out for no less than 1 month leases while they are away.
Again, not usually a problem. They usually have a management company vet prospective tenants and keep the place clean, and again feel invested in the neighborhood.
d) Property bought solely on speculation to rent out, but haven't excluded moving into at some future date. Also renting out for a minimum of 1 month
Getting a bit less desirable, but usually responsive to legitimate complaints
e) Property solely bought as an investment to run THE BUSINESS of STR/Airbnb. Motivated solely by income, will rent to anyone, couldn't care less about the neighborhood or the community. And what type of renter does such a place attract? Certainly not a nice 65 year old couple looking seriously at moving here. No, it attracts 20 somethings, young families with kids, especially teenagers, partiers who view TV as centrally located, bargain hunters, maybe someone with an RV looking to stay in one place for a little bit. Late night drunken parties?? why not? Kids run amok??? sure. Disrespect neighbor's property. Of course.
So, yes, there is no arbitrary time frame for getting a good or bad neighbor, but which scenario do you think is most likely to yield the proverbial rotten apple? And of course, if STRs were such a good thing, why are all these people on TOTV complaining. Why has Clearwater effectively banned them. Why has Orlando and now NYC taken steps to severely curtail their proliferation?
There are appropriate places for STR---they're called motels
If the identity of TV is a 55+ active lifestyle retirement community, then we should take steps to preserve our identity before we become a motel shantytown, with all the crime and other problems that come with that.
It think this sums it up …. Pretty spot-on analysis.
BrianL99
09-12-2023, 07:48 AM
I would think those restrictions would pretty much end STRs in private homes anywhere they are enacted.
So, THERE ARE YOUR FACTS
You missed the entire point.
Up until Orlando adopted the new regulations, STR's were completely banned in Residentially Zoned areas.
They didn't "further regulate STR's", they made STR's legal were they previously were prohibited..
Remember Taxis? They're all gone because a new business model made them obsolete.
Remember reserving a hotel for a vacation? AirBnB & **** have a better model.
Judges and State Legislature are weighing in on STR's, all over the USA. The big money is on the side of STR's, not on Joe Bag o' Donuts, homeowner.
I don't like STR's in Residential Districts. In my opinion, they de-stabilize and destroy the fabric of a community. Changing this dynamic in The Villages is all but impossible in my opinion, because the Developer has shown no interest in curtailing their proliferation. That wouldn't suit his financial interests.
(Just to provide one simple example of why the Developer would never support banning STR's: The Developer owns all the Commercial property in TV. His return on investment is directly related to how successful the businesses are. It is in the Developer's interest to have every single home in TV, occupied 365 days/year. More people, more money spent. Also, "vacationers" spend more money than "residents". The more Short Term Rental vacationers in TV, the more successful the businesses are ... ergo, higher rents for the Developer.)
The Developer controls the CDD's, so they're not going to step in.
What's left? Villagers could get together and file a court action, arguing the "no business" clauses in the various Deed Restrictions prohibit STR use. I think that's a reasonable argument.
Alternatively, it could be argued that the underlying zoning prohibits STR use (a less compelling argument in my opinion.)
I figure a War Chest of about $3,000,000 would be needed to fight the Developer's opposition. If you want to setup the GoFundMe page to get started, I'll be the first one to write a check.
As proven over & over again, online bitchin' and complaining, seldom produces results or change..
Randall55
09-12-2023, 08:14 AM
You missed the entire point.
Up until Orlando adopted the new regulations, STR's were completely banned in Residentially Zoned areas.
They didn't "further regulate STR's", they made STR's legal were they previously were prohibited..
Remember going to a Video Store and renting a video? Now almost all video is a "subscription service". Pay for what you need.
Remember "ripping" music off CD's? Now, music is a "subscription service". Pay for what you need.
Remember listening to FM radio when you were driving? No more.
Remember Taxis? They're all gone because a new business model made them obsolete.
Remember reserving a hotel for a vacation? AirBnB & **** have a better model.
Judges and State Legislature are weighing in on STR's, all over the USA. The big money is on the side of STR's, not on Joe Bag o' Donuts, homeowner.
I don't like STR's in Residential Districts. In my opinion, they de-stabilize and destroy the fabric of a community. Changing this dynamic in The Villages is all but impossible in my opinion, because the Developer has shown no interest in curtailing their proliferation. That wouldn't suit his financial interests.
(Just to provide one simple example of why the Developer would never support banning STR's: The Developer owns all the Commercial property in TV. His return on investment is directly related to how successful the businesses are. It is in the Developer's interest to have every single home in TV, occupied 365 days/year. More people, more money spent. Also, "vacationers" spend more money than "residents". The more Short Term Rental vacationers in TV, the more successful the businesses are ... ergo, higher rents for the Developer.)
The Developer controls the CDD's, so they're not going to step in.
What's left? Villagers could get together and file a court action, that the "no business" clauses in the various Deed Restrictions prohibit STR use. I think it's a fairly good argument.
Alternatively, it could be argued that the underlying zoning prohibits STR use (a less compelling argument in my opinion.)
I figure a War Chest of about $3,000,000 would be needed to fight the Developer's opposition. If you want to setup the GoFundMe page to get started, I'll be the first one to write a check.
As proven over & over again, online bitchin' and complaining, seldom produces results or change.. Save your 3 million! The idea that citizens must change the laws is wrong. New laws for Short Term Rentals need to come from government officials. The latest I read was a proposed bill that the Florida Senate had passed in April, 2023. The bill is backed by city officials who are demanding a change. Much sooner than later, there will be new laws enacted by the state. (Just like laws were passed in NYC.) The developer has no domain over the government. If he chooses, he can fight the legality of the STR changes in a court of law.
golfing eagles
09-12-2023, 08:15 AM
You missed the entire point.
Up until Orlando adopted the new regulations, STR's were completely banned in Residentially Zoned areas.
They didn't "further regulate STR's", they made STR's legal were they previously were prohibited..
Remember Taxis? They're all gone because a new business model made them obsolete.
Remember reserving a hotel for a vacation? AirBnB & **** have a better model.
Judges and State Legislature are weighing in on STR's, all over the USA. The big money is on the side of STR's, not on Joe Bag o' Donuts, homeowner.
I don't like STR's in Residential Districts. In my opinion, they de-stabilize and destroy the fabric of a community. Changing this dynamic in The Villages is all but impossible in my opinion, because the Developer has shown no interest in curtailing their proliferation. That wouldn't suit his financial interests.
(Just to provide one simple example of why the Developer would never support banning STR's: The Developer owns all the Commercial property in TV. His return on investment is directly related to how successful the businesses are. It is in the Developer's interest to have every single home in TV, occupied 365 days/year. More people, more money spent. Also, "vacationers" spend more money than "residents". The more Short Term Rental vacationers in TV, the more successful the businesses are ... ergo, higher rents for the Developer.)
The Developer controls the CDD's, so they're not going to step in.
What's left? Villagers could get together and file a court action, arguing the "no business" clauses in the various Deed Restrictions prohibit STR use. I think that's a reasonable argument.
Alternatively, it could be argued that the underlying zoning prohibits STR use (a less compelling argument in my opinion.)
I figure a War Chest of about $3,000,000 would be needed to fight the Developer's opposition. If you want to setup the GoFundMe page to get started, I'll be the first one to write a check.
As proven over & over again, online bitchin' and complaining, seldom produces results or change..
Regardless, if we had those restrictions in TV, it would stop STRs dead in their tracks
margaretmattson
09-12-2023, 09:26 AM
Save your 3 million! The idea that citizens must change the laws is wrong. New laws for Short Term Rentals need to come from government officials. The latest I read was a proposed bill that the Florida Senate had passed in April, 2023. The bill is backed by city officials who are demanding a change. Much sooner than later, there will be new laws enacted by the state. (Just like laws were passed in NYC.) The developer has no domain over the government. If he chooses, he can fight the legality of the STR changes in a court of law. Finally! Someone who wants to talk about CURRENT STR information. Hopefully, the talk of Clearwater being grandfathered-in back in 2003 will stop. That information was never relevant to the discussion.
Sometimes, I believe STR owners on this thread are attempting to confuse people - Acting like no laws can be made to stop STRs. I guess they have no reason to believe the state will create laws to reduce STRs. If NYC was able to do it, our new laws can't be that far behind. Here's hoping the state legislature passes a bill soon.
BrianL99
09-12-2023, 09:43 AM
Save your 3 million! The idea that citizens must change the laws is wrong. New laws for Short Term Rentals need to come from government officials. The latest I read was a proposed bill that the Florida Senate had passed in April, 2023. The bill is backed by city officials who are demanding a change. Much sooner than later, there will be new laws enacted by the state. (Just like laws were passed in NYC.) The developer has no domain over the government. If he chooses, he can fight the legality of the STR changes in a court of law.
That bill (or similar bills) has been introduced in the Florida Legislature, every year for the last 15 years. It's never made it through the Legislature ... which is sort of irrelevant, as the Governor would veto it, anyway.
"The U.S. Conference of Mayors in 2012 voted unanimously in favor of a resolution that supports allowing short-term rentals in America’s cities as an economic development opportunity and proposed treating short-term rental tenants the same as long-term rental tenants" (| Libertas Institute (https://libertas.org/property-rights/zoning-meets-property-rights-airbnb-and-****-outlawed-in-several-utah-cities/))
The Developer has "no domain over the government"? The Morse family has no political power in Florida??? They built a damn bridge over the Florida Turnpike, solely for their convenience and the accompanying financial windfall.
"We the people" is a quaint notion. "We have the money" is the operative phrase.
golfing eagles
09-12-2023, 09:54 AM
That bill (or similar bills) has been introduced in the Florida Legislature, every year for the last 15 years. It's never made it through the Legislature ... which is sort of irrelevant, as the Governor would veto it, anyway.
"The U.S. Conference of Mayors in 2012 voted unanimously in favor of a resolution that supports allowing short-term rentals in America’s cities as an economic development opportunity and proposed treating short-term rental tenants the same as long-term rental tenants" (| Libertas Institute (https://libertas.org/property-rights/zoning-meets-property-rights-airbnb-and-****-outlawed-in-several-utah-cities/))
The Developer has "no domain over the government"? The Morse family has no political power in Florida??? They built a damn bridge over the Florida Turnpike, solely for their convenience and the accompanying financial windfall.
"We the people" is a quaint notion. "We have the money" is the operative phrase.
Wow, the Morse family must cross that bridge A LOT to have built it for "their own convenience". Silly me, I thought it benefitted all of us Villagers.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 09:55 AM
Finally! Someone who wants to talk about CURRENT STR information. Hopefully, the talk of Clearwater being grandfathered-in back in 2003 will stop. That information was never relevant to the discussion.
Sometimes, I believe STR owners on this thread are attempting to confuse people - Acting like no laws can be made to stop STRs. I guess they have no reason to believe the state will create laws to reduce STRs. If NYC was able to do it, our new laws can't be that far behind. Here's hoping the state legislature passes a bill soon.
1. The relevance of Clearwater and Orlando is that they have been offered up as examples of how new regulations limiting STRs can and are being done. Certain people have correctly pointed out that, those are NOT cases of increased restriction, but rather cases of lessened restriction since they STRs were originally forbidden and are now "allowed" albeit under conditions that no reasonable person would rent their home to a stranger.
2. To assert that since NYC passed a law, Florida will surely follow ignores the reality of the differences in voter patterns between the 2 locations. Not that it can't happen, but the amount of tourist dollars that are brought into this state via STRs should not be discounted since money talks so loudly.
3. Not arguing with your main point that you want new law(s) and recognize that it must happen at the state level. I am ambivalent. I have never experienced the harm of STRs, I personally know of no one who has, I know that my sister and her family greatly enjoy their stays at AirBnBs and are very respectful of the places they stay and would hate for her to lose that opportunity, and I have permanent neighbors who are not respectful of neighbors, so I don't think the only or major problem of the villages is STRs. But I also do not want to ignore or minimize the concerns of those who truly have been harmed by STRs in their neighborhood.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 09:59 AM
Wow, the Morse family must cross that bridge A LOT to have built it for "their own convenience". Silly me, I thought it benefitted all of us Villagers.
Now you sound like me, nitpicking words when the primary point was 100 correct. You know that he did not mean so they can ride over the bridge in their golf carts but for the convenience of increasing the size of the villages and still providing the amenity of "you can get anywhere by golf cart".
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 10:06 AM
Save your 3 million! The idea that citizens must change the laws is wrong. New laws for Short Term Rentals need to come from government officials. The latest I read was a proposed bill that the Florida Senate had passed in April, 2023. The bill is backed by city officials who are demanding a change. Much sooner than later, there will be new laws enacted by the state. (Just like laws were passed in NYC.) The developer has no domain over the government. If he chooses, he can fight the legality of the STR changes in a court of law.
To say that citizens don't need to pass a law, the lawmakers do, is 100% accurate at the face, but kind of non-sensical in principal. Lawmakers rarely pass laws just because. They pass laws because the citizens (lots of them or wealthy few) pressure them into doing it. If no citizen said or did anything, the chance of a new law would be somewhere close to 0%.
To say that the developer has no domain over the government is extremely naive in my opinion. In classrooms we can be taught that the will of the people is what prevails when in reality, we know that money and influence talk much louder.
I am confident that the legislators are weighing going against the developer and the loss of who knows how much tourist money with going against a very vocal community demanding action. I won't try to predict which way it will go, but I think to deny that reality may be foolish.
Hope your recovery is going well!
margaretmattson
09-12-2023, 10:07 AM
That bill (or similar bills) has been introduced in the Florida Legislature, every year for the last 15 years. It's never made it through the Legislature ... which is sort of irrelevant, as the Governor would veto it, anyway.
"The U.S. Conference of Mayors in 2012 voted unanimously in favor of a resolution that supports allowing short-term rentals in America’s cities as an economic development opportunity and proposed treating short-term rental tenants the same as long-term rental tenants" (| Libertas Institute (https://libertas.org/property-rights/zoning-meets-property-rights-airbnb-and-****-outlawed-in-several-utah-cities/))
The Developer has "no domain over the government"? The Morse family has no political power in Florida??? They built a damn bridge over the Florida Turnpike, solely for their convenience and the accompanying financial windfall.
"We the people" is a quaint notion. "We have the money" is the operative phrase.Here we go again! An agonizing post of what happened decades ago. We are in the here and now! The developer building a bridge over the turnpike has to do with City Development. You have no idea on how Ron Desantis will vote, and even if he did vote no, he is not the one and only deciding factor.
Oh, here's a new one from your arsenal. The US Conference of Mayors in 2012. Well, I guess the mayor of NYC didn't get the memo.
I am not a government expert. But, I am almost certain if the state of Florida passes new laws for STRS, the developer will be forced to follow them or get fined. Are you really unaware that there are cities throughout Florida who are demanding change? But, I get it! Let's call the Developer of the Villages and see what he thinks. I do not understand your rationale. Unless, of course, you are an STR owner who wants to use scare-tactics.
golfing eagles
09-12-2023, 10:08 AM
Now you sound like me, nitpicking words when the primary point was 100 correct. You know that he did not mean so they can ride over the bridge in their golf carts but for the convenience of increasing the size of the villages and still providing the amenity of "you can get anywhere by golf cart".
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
margaretmattson
09-12-2023, 10:21 AM
1. The relevance of Clearwater and Orlando is that they have been offered up as examples of how new regulations limiting STRs can and are being done. Certain people have correctly pointed out that, those are NOT cases of increased restriction, but rather cases of lessened restriction since they STRs were originally forbidden and are now "allowed" albeit under conditions that no reasonable person would rent their home to a stranger.
2. To assert that since NYC passed a law, Florida will surely follow ignores the reality of the differences in voter patterns between the 2 locations. Not that it can't happen, but the amount of tourist dollars that are brought into this state via STRs should not be discounted since money talks so loudly.
3. Not arguing with your main point that you want new law(s) and recognize that it must happen at the state level. I am ambivalent. I have never experienced the harm of STRs, I personally know of no one who has, I know that my sister and her family greatly enjoy their stays at AirBnBs and are very respectful of the places they stay and would hate for her to lose that opportunity, and I have permanent neighbors who are not respectful of neighbors, so I don't think the only or major problem of the villages is STRs. But I also do not want to ignore or minimize the concerns of those who truly have been harmed by STRs in their neighborhood.I was replying to a post that stated the Florida Senate passed a Short Term Rental Bill in April. I said, if NYC can get a bill passed, most likely ours will follow.
I am not an expert in government. But I assume if one wanted to get a bill passed on STRS they would refer to others, NYC included, who have done it.
There is no relevance in Clearwater. They were grandfathered-in. That is not going to happen to the remaining cities in Florida. So why bring it up?
Read about the Senate Passing a Short Term Rental Bill. I know it is just a bill. But, I believe they are going to keep working on it until it is passed into law. Hoping- with fingers crossed.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 10:22 AM
Save your 3 million! The idea that citizens must change the laws is wrong. New laws for Short Term Rentals need to come from government officials. The latest I read was a proposed bill that the Florida Senate had passed in April, 2023. The bill is backed by city officials who are demanding a change. Much sooner than later, there will be new laws enacted by the state. (Just like laws were passed in NYC.) The developer has no domain over the government. If he chooses, he can fight the legality of the STR changes in a court of law.
I just researched the bill that passed the Senate.
1. The bill is in response to city officials who are demanding change, but many feel that the new bill actually removes some of the tools they have to regulated STRs.
2. I did not find the bill text, but the article claims that it does not in any way prevent short term rentals but rather requires registration of landlords and penalties to landlords for rentors who violate certain standards i.e. cause problems for the neighbors.
3. In my mind this bill (as I understand it when not finding the actual text) is the proper balance. It aims to address the problems of STRs rather than outlawing them. Of course, if it becomes law, the proof is in the effectiveness of enforcement. It does not address the fact that different people will always be at the house (stable group of neighbors) but I don't think anyone is owed stable group of neighbors.
Randall55
09-12-2023, 10:31 AM
I just researched the bill that passed the Senate.
1. The bill is in response to city officials who are demanding change, but many feel that the new bill actually removes some of the tools they have to regulated STRs.
2. I did not find the bill text, but the article claims that it does not in any way prevent short term rentals but rather requires registration of landlords and penalties to landlords for rentors who violate certain standards i.e. cause problems for the neighbors.
3. In my mind this bill (as I understand it when not finding the actual text) is the proper balance. It aims to address the problems of STRs rather than outlawing them. Of course, if it becomes law, the proof is in the effectiveness of enforcement. It does not address the fact that different people will always be at the house (stable group of neighbors) but I don't think anyone is owed stable group of neighbors. Correct. But, I believe this is just the stepping stones and the reason the bill has not passed into law. I could be wrong, but I see more add-ons.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 10:32 AM
I was replying to a post that stated the Florida Senate passed a Short Term Rental Bill in April. I said, if NYC can get a bill passed, most likely ours will follow.
I am not an expert in government. But I assume if one wanted to get a bill passed on STRS they would refer to others, NYC included, who have done it.
There is no relevance in Clearwater. They were grandfathered-in. That is not going to happen to the remaining cities in Florida. So why bring it up?
Read about the Senate Passing a Short Term Rental Bill. I know it is just a bill. But, I believe they are going to keep working on it until it is passed into law. Hoping- with fingers crossed.
I completely understood your post about if NYC can pass a bill most likely our will follow. I just disagree with that assertion. If you look at many NYC laws, you would find that they would stand almost no chance of passing in Florida (example, sanctuary city)
I read about the bill that passed and posted on it before I read this. I won't rehash my post, but I think you will find that the bill that passed would not come close to satisfying you (based on I think you want them prohibited but the bill does not do that. I may be wrong on your desires though).
OK, I will admit that Clearwater has no relevance. It was the people who support your position (as I understand it) that brought it up. But the people you (seemed) to be disagreeing with were actually of the same mind that Clearwater and Orlando are irrelevant so don't bring them up as examples of how new regulations are being passed increasing restrictions on STRs, therefore we can get increased restrictions in the villages.
golfing eagles
09-12-2023, 10:32 AM
I just researched the bill that passed the Senate.
1. The bill is in response to city officials who are demanding change, but many feel that the new bill actually removes some of the tools they have to regulated STRs.
2. I did not find the bill text, but the article claims that it does not in any way prevent short term rentals but rather requires registration of landlords and penalties to landlords for rentors who violate certain standards i.e. cause problems for the neighbors.
3. In my mind this bill (as I understand it when not finding the actual text) is the proper balance. It aims to address the problems of STRs rather than outlawing them. Of course, if it becomes law, the proof is in the effectiveness of enforcement. It does not address the fact that different people will always be at the house (stable group of neighbors) but I don't think anyone is owed stable group of neighbors.
Yep---Nobody would want that in "America's Friendliest Home Town" :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
Randall55
09-12-2023, 10:36 AM
To say that citizens don't need to pass a law, the lawmakers do, is 100% accurate at the face, but kind of non-sensical in principal. Lawmakers rarely pass laws just because. They pass laws because the citizens (lots of them or wealthy few) pressure them into doing it. If no citizen said or did anything, the chance of a new law would be somewhere close to 0%.
To say that the developer has no domain over the government is extremely naive in my opinion. In classrooms we can be taught that the will of the people is what prevails when in reality, we know that money and influence talk much louder.
I am confident that the legislators are weighing going against the developer and the loss of who knows how much tourist money with going against a very vocal community demanding action. I won't try to predict which way it will go, but I think to deny that reality may be foolish.
Hope your recovery is going well! I started my post with save your 3 million dollars. I would assume intelligent people like you would realize why collecting 3 million dollars to fight the developer is unnecessary. Thank you for proving you have intelligence to understand. Thanks, I am doing well.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 10:37 AM
Correct. But, I believe this is just the stepping stones and the reason the bill has not passed into law. I could be wrong, but I see more add-ons.
Fair enough. I have no basis to argue your point on this being a stepping stone. I have no basis to dispute more add-ons. But I do think that moving from addressing the problems of STRs to outlawing them in residential areas is a huge leap that I think would be a very long way away. But I have nothing to back up my opinion, it is just a sense I have.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 10:41 AM
Yep---Nobody would want that in "America's Friendliest Home Town" :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
I think there is a monumental difference between wanting something and being owed something. Do you disagree?
How many weeks a year do you think your neighbors should be allowed to go on vacation in order to provide you with a stable group of neighbors. Should we set up a neighborhood vacation schedule so that too many people are not gone at the same time making you feel like you don't have enough neighbors? What should the limit on the number of guests you can have and how often so won't feel overwhelmed by new people? What exactly is it that you are OWED?
Randall55
09-12-2023, 10:46 AM
Fair enough. I have no basis to argue your point on this being a stepping stone. I have no basis to dispute more add-ons. But I do think that moving from addressing the problems of STRs to outlawing them in residential areas is a huge leap that I think would be a very long way away. But I have nothing to back up my opinion, it is just a sense I have.I am an optimist. But, I know it is a big battle.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 10:50 AM
I started my post with save your 3 million dollars. I would assume intelligent people like you would realize why collecting 3 million dollars to fight the developer is unnecessary. Thank you for proving you have intelligence to understand. Thanks, I am doing well.
Do you disagree that money influences (most) politicians?
Do you think that the developer might use some money with contributions or otherwise to attempt to influcence legislators (not bashing the developer) from banning short term rentals for many of the reasons the poster outlined?.
Do you think that creating and organizing a grass roots effort to create a groundswell of people to (counter)influence legislators would take money?
If so, ok. But I would disgree with you 100%.
And I think the jist of his post was accurate but I have no basis to estimate whether it would be $10,000, $100,000, or $3 million to organize the effort.
Randall55
09-12-2023, 11:10 AM
Do you disagree that money influences (most) politicians?
Do you think that the developer might use some money with contributions or otherwise to attempt to influcence legislators (not bashing the developer) from banning short term rentals for many of the reasons the poster outlined?.
Do you think that creating and organizing a grass roots effort to create a groundswell of people to (counter)influence legislators would take money?
If so, ok. But I would disgree with you 100%.
And I think the jist of his post was accurate but I have no basis to estimate whether it would be $10,000, $100,000, or $3 million to organize the effort.The post I responded to stated that the residents of the Villages must collect $3 million dollars to fight the developer in court. He felt the developer would fight tooth and nail to keep STRS
I responded keep your $3 million. Fighting should be at the government level. No sense or reason to fight the developer. Or collect $3 million dollars to do it. Especially when there is a bill floating around the state capital that city officials are backing.
The rest you know. Thank you for understanding that the most citizens have to do is alert their state representative. No money needed! Especially in the Villages where our population carries weight. Do us dirty, we will not vote for you in the next election. Lobbying has been curtailed. I do not believe money carries weight like it once did. Even if the Developer donated money, will it be enough to ignore the wants of several cities?
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 11:24 AM
The post I responded to stated that the residents of the Villages must collect $3 million dollars to fight the developer in court. He felt the developer would fight tooth and nail to keep STRS.
I responded keep your $3 million. Fighting should be at the government level. No sense or reason to fight the developer. Or collect $3 million dollars to do it. Especially when there is a bill floating around the state capital.
The rest you know. Thank you for understanding that the most citizens have to do is alert their state representative. No money needed! Especially in the Villages where our population carries weight. Do us dirty, we will not vote for you in the next election.
About the $3 million, I just went back and reread the post you responded to. You are 100% right and I stand (sit) corrected.
Multiple citizens contact their representative. Some in favor of banning STRs. Some pushing their representative to vote against any prohibition because they want them. They all "notified" their representative. Not all will get what they want. The developer may be strongly in favor of STRs because of the reasons stated by the person whose post you responded to. He contacts the same representatives (and others) and provides potentially large contributions to their election war chests. What is your prediction on how it will go? How many people do you think will vote opposite their political leanings to oust a representative soley over their position (or lack thereof) on STRs?
Bill14564
09-12-2023, 11:43 AM
I just researched the bill that passed the Senate.
1. The bill is in response to city officials who are demanding change, but many feel that the new bill actually removes some of the tools they have to regulated STRs.
2. I did not find the bill text, but the article claims that it does not in any way prevent short term rentals but rather requires registration of landlords and penalties to landlords for rentors who violate certain standards i.e. cause problems for the neighbors.
3. In my mind this bill (as I understand it when not finding the actual text) is the proper balance. It aims to address the problems of STRs rather than outlawing them. Of course, if it becomes law, the proof is in the effectiveness of enforcement. It does not address the fact that different people will always be at the house (stable group of neighbors) but I don't think anyone is owed stable group of neighbors.
At least two bills were submitted this past session.
CS/HB 1417: Residential Tenancies (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/1417/?Tab=BillHistory) was signed into law. This bill preempts more local regulation of certain aspects of rental relationships.
CS/CS/HB 833: Vacation Rentals (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/833) was laid on the table (died). This is the bill mentioned in the article where "local officials remain wary."
It looks like the state is moving further away from local control of vacation rentals. When they even consider allowing local control, the local officials aren't sure the state is really helping them.
Cybersprings
09-12-2023, 11:56 AM
At least two bills were submitted this past session.
CS/HB 1417: Residential Tenancies (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/1417/?Tab=BillHistory) was signed into law. This bill preempts more local regulation of certain aspects of rental relationships.
CS/CS/HB 833: Vacation Rentals (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/833) was laid on the table (died). This is the bill mentioned in the article where "local officials remain wary."
It looks like the state is moving further away from local control of vacation rentals. When they even consider allowing local control, the local officials aren't sure the state is really helping them.
Thank you very much for the clarification/correction. I should have put more effort into my search.
Randall55
09-12-2023, 12:02 PM
About the $3 million, I just went back and reread the post you responded to. You are 100% right and I stand (sit) corrected.
Multiple citizens contact their representative. Some in favor of banning STRs. Some pushing their representative to vote against any prohibition because they want them. They all "notified" their representative. Not all will get what they want. The developer may be strongly in favor of STRs because of the reasons stated by the person whose post you responded to. He contacts the same representatives (and others) and provides potentially large contributions to their election war chests. What is your prediction on how it will go? How many people do you think will vote opposite their political leanings to oust a representative soley over their position (or lack thereof) on STRs? The bill at the State Capital is backed by city officials. I doubt one person can donate enough money to curtail the wants of large cities. I also can not think of a city or individual who has enough interest in the revenue to keep STRS going. Hotels/motels can easily provide the needed revenue as they have done in the past.
Seeing that city officials are giving their voice to the present bill, I would assume the majority of residents want STRs to end or at least limit them. I have heard more voices opposing than for. Will they not vote for their representative if the STR bill does not pass? I'm skeptical. How many people know of the current bill? It is anyone's guess what will happen. I would just be thankful for laws that restrict STRS.
Bill14564
09-12-2023, 12:02 PM
Thank you very much for the clarification/correction. I should have put more effort into my search.
I knew that site existed from previous searches - you just need the bill number and the year it was introduced.
Bill14564
09-12-2023, 12:04 PM
The bill at the State Capital is backed by city officials. I doubt one person can donate enough money to curtail the wants of large cities. I also can not think of a city or individual who has enough interest in the revenue to keep STRS going. Hotels/motels can easily provide the needed revenue as they have done in the past.
Seeing that city officials are giving their voice to the present bill, I would assume the majority of residents want STRs to end or at least limit them. I have heard more voices opposing than for. Will they not for their representative if the STR bill does not pass? I'm skeptical. How many people know of the current bill? It is anyone's guess what will happen. I would just be thankful for laws that restrict STRS.
Since the Florida legislature is not in session, there is no current bill. Perhaps (likely?) a bill will be introduced into the next session.
There were bills presented in the last session. I linked two of them in my earlier post. There may have been others as well.
Randall55
09-12-2023, 12:14 PM
Since the Florida legislature is not in session, there is no current bill. Perhaps (likely?) a bill will be introduced into the next session.
There were bills presented in the last session. I linked two of them in my earlier post. There may have been others as well. A bill does not die because the legislature is not in session. It can still be worked on by lawmakers throughout the recess. I am hopeful another will reach the floor for a vote this session. I am optimistic. It seems the lawmakers are narrowing in on items the majority can agree upon.
Bill14564
09-12-2023, 12:17 PM
A bill does not die because the legislature is not in session. It can still be worked on by lawmakers throughout the recess. I am hopeful another will reach the floor for a vote this session.
You can argue with the Florida Senate about that - I assume they control their website and marked it dead.
Certainly, future bills can be conceived of and formulated while the legislature is not in session. They will be introduced as new bills beginning in March. (NOTE: I actually don't know if a bill can be resurrected/reconsidered from last session)
There is no "this" session. There is the previous session and there is the upcoming session next year, but there is no "this" session.
Randall55
09-12-2023, 12:21 PM
You can argue with the Florida Senate about that - I assume they control their website and marked it dead.
Certainly, future bills can be conceived of and formulated while the legislature is not in session. They will be introduced as new bills beginning in March.
There is no "this" session. There is the previous session and there is the upcoming session next year, but there is no "this" session. By die, I meant never to be heard of again. I do not believe this is the case with STR bills. It seems items have to be subtracted or added. But, technically speaking, you are correct. This would be a new bill.
Velvet
09-12-2023, 12:59 PM
You missed the entire point.
Up until Orlando adopted the new regulations, STR's were completely banned in Residentially Zoned areas.
They didn't "further regulate STR's", they made STR's legal were they previously were prohibited..
Remember Taxis? They're all gone because a new business model made them obsolete.
Remember reserving a hotel for a vacation? AirBnB & **** have a better model.
Judges and State Legislature are weighing in on STR's, all over the USA. The big money is on the side of STR's, not on Joe Bag o' Donuts, homeowner.
I don't like STR's in Residential Districts. In my opinion, they de-stabilize and destroy the fabric of a community. Changing this dynamic in The Villages is all but impossible in my opinion, because the Developer has shown no interest in curtailing their proliferation. That wouldn't suit his financial interests.
(Just to provide one simple example of why the Developer would never support banning STR's: The Developer owns all the Commercial property in TV. His return on investment is directly related to how successful the businesses are. It is in the Developer's interest to have every single home in TV, occupied 365 days/year. More people, more money spent. Also, "vacationers" spend more money than "residents". The more Short Term Rental vacationers in TV, the more successful the businesses are ... ergo, higher rents for the Developer.)
The Developer controls the CDD's, so they're not going to step in.
What's left? Villagers could get together and file a court action, arguing the "no business" clauses in the various Deed Restrictions prohibit STR use. I think that's a reasonable argument.
Alternatively, it could be argued that the underlying zoning prohibits STR use (a less compelling argument in my opinion.)
I figure a War Chest of about $3,000,000 would be needed to fight the Developer's opposition. If you want to setup the GoFundMe page to get started, I'll be the first one to write a check.
As proven over & over again, online bitchin' and complaining, seldom produces results or change..
Are you saying the Developer would protect all kinds of STRs in The Villages?
BrianL99
09-12-2023, 01:22 PM
A bill does not die because the legislature is not in session. It can still be worked on by lawmakers throughout the recess. I am hopeful another will reach the floor for a vote this session. I am optimistic. It seems the lawmakers are narrowing in on items the majority can agree upon.
You can argue with the Florida Senate about that - I assume they control their website and marked it dead.
...
There is no "this" session. There is the previous session and there is the upcoming session next year, but there is no "this" session.
Here's a quick primer for the Poly-Sci Majors who were out sick, the day Legislative Process was explained.
Florida House of Representatives - MyFloridaHouse.gov (https://www.myfloridahouse.gov/default.aspx)
Session - The Florida Senate (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session)
Unfortunately, Short Term Rentals doesn't seem like a big enough priority, to even make the list of the Top 18 Issues.
Here's how 18 big issues settled from the 2023 Florida legislative session - WUFT News (https://www.wuft.org/news/2023/05/09/heres-how-18-big-issues-settled-from-the-2023-legislative-session/)
BrianL99
09-12-2023, 01:23 PM
Are you saying the Developer would protect all kinds of STRs in The Villages?
Yes, he'd be a fool not to.
The Morse's aren't fools.
BrianL99
09-12-2023, 01:29 PM
1. The relevance of Clearwater and Orlando is that they have been offered up as examples of how new regulations limiting STRs can and are being done. Certain people have correctly pointed out that, those are NOT cases of increased restriction, but rather cases of lessened restriction since they STRs were originally forbidden and are now "allowed" albeit under conditions that no reasonable person would rent their home to a stranger.
2. To assert that since NYC passed a law, Florida will surely follow ignores the reality of the differences in voter patterns between the 2 locations. Not that it can't happen, but the amount of tourist dollars that are brought into this state via STRs should not be discounted since money talks so loudly.
....
I knew if I kept trying to explain it logically, someone would finally read and understand the genesis of the Clearwater, Orlando & NYC situations and why they're not relevant to TV.
BrianL99
09-12-2023, 01:34 PM
...
Randall55
09-12-2023, 01:46 PM
QUOTE=Randall55;2255879]A bill does not die because the legislature is not in session. It can still be worked on by lawmakers throughout the recess. I am hopeful another will reach the floor for a vote this session. I am optimistic. It seems the lawmakers are narrowing in on items the majority can agree upon.
Here's a quick primer for the Poly-Sci Majors who were out sick, the day Legislative Process lecture was scheduled.
Florida House of Representatives - MyFloridaHouse.gov (https://www.myfloridahouse.gov/default.aspx)
Session - The Florida Senate (https://www.flsenate.gov/Session)
Unfortunately, Short Term Rentals doesn't seem like a big enough priority, to even make the list of the Top 18 Issues.
Here's how 18 big issues settled from the 2023 Florida legislative session - WUFT News (https://www.wuft.org/news/2023/05/09/heres-how-18-big-issues-settled-from-the-2023-legislative-session/)[/QUOTE] You have a firm belief nothing will be done to stop or restrict STRS. You are entitled to your opinion.
I do not need a primer on Florida Legislature. I worked as an intern to obtain my degree. Bills get altered, rewritten, added onto, or subtracted. There is no time stamp. I assure you, no lawmaker enters the capital building on the first day empty handed. They present their district needs, ideas are exchanged, committees are formed. In the end, only a few bills are ready for a vote on the floor. This doesn't mean any issue is not important. It means some are prioritized over the others. That explains the 18 big issues.
We are all guessing what will happen with STR laws. I remain in the camp that laws will be enacted. As more and more cities demand them, a majority vote by Florida lawmakers is easier to accomplish.
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