UAW may strike!

[Gpsma]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

[rustyp]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.


Just a matter of time before AI replaces management. AI works for much less than a fortune 500 CEO at 300x the average worker.

[Caymus]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

Tesla is building a multi-Billion $ factory in Mexico. UAW made cars won't be able to compete on costs.

[Gpsma]

Amazes me that union uneducated skells think they need more than minumum wage to put a tire on a car.

Just like paying McDonalds burger flippers $15 an hour…oh wait, where did those kiosks come from?

[Cybersprings]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

Wow. just wow. You could have a valid point. But is completely lost in the condescending insulting words. And I am not even a fan of unions.

[Rainger99]

The issues.


Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/uaw-strikes-everything-you-need-to-know.html)


As UAW strike looms, auto workers want 4-day, 32-hour workweek, among other contract demands - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uaw-strike-update-four-day-work-week-32-hours/?ftag=YHF4eb9d17)

[Cybersprings]

The issues.


Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/uaw-strikes-everything-you-need-to-know.html)


As UAW strike looms, auto workers want 4-day, 32-hour workweek, among other contract demands - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uaw-strike-update-four-day-work-week-32-hours/?ftag=YHF4eb9d17)


hmmm. You would think that before entertaining a strike that they would make demands that "sell" to the general public. If their wages have not kept up with inflation, then demanding a wage that has seems like something you could sell and be publicly supported. (Unless the public thought you were way overpaid before.) Stating that we are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and we need to be paid 40 hours for 32 hours of work is non-sensical (in my opinion). 40 hours per week, with inflation adjusted pay seems like reasonable demands that you might get support for. (Although, the unions all proudly support certain folks, who might possibly be responsible for inflation). This could be a case of you get what you voted for. Not intended to be political. If anyone thinks that is, please advise so I can remove it ASAP.

[threeonemiles@outlook.com]

hmmm. You would think that before entertaining a strike that they would make demands that "sell" to the general public. If their wages have not kept up with inflation, then demanding a wage that has seems like something you could sell and be publicly supported. (Unless the public thought you were way overpaid before.) Stating that we are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and we need to be paid 40 hours for 32 hours of work is non-sensical (in my opinion). 40 hours per week, with inflation adjusted pay seems like reasonable demands that you might get support for. (Although, the unions all proudly support certain folks, who might possibly be responsible for inflation). This could be a case of you get what you voted for. Not intended to be political. If anyone thinks that is, please advise so I can remove it ASAP.
Ride a bike whenever possible.

[Stu from NYC]

OK let them go on strike. Since we are not in the need for another car they can work out their differences at their own pace.

[Rainger99]

This may a long strike.

Ford said that the UAW's proposals would more than double its US labour costs.

And the members 97% of the union's members voted to authorise a strike.

Hard to see common ground there.

[Cobullymom]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

This is why I don't like unions, they are greedy powerhouses and make a mockery of all the hard working Americans who keep plugging along every day. And I would never vote for anyone who promotes them. We all get screwed in the long run. Except the union heads who get richer..

[huge-pigeons]

So you will be paying 30-40% more for a Chevy, ford, or ram, which are already overpriced for the quality you get. Every job in these plants are anlready automated so the worker doesn’t have to lift anything heavy, robots help carry, or actually do the more demanding physical work. I hope all of these car manufacturers go broke after they. Implement this and all the workers go from making good money to $0. There are much better made cars here in the US that won’t be affected by this and I hope they all thrive.

[oneclickplus]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

Let them strike. Time is our side. Let's see how long all those union workers can survive with $500/week of "strike pay"; can't collect unemployment; no medical benefits. And how long can the union keep up with strike pay before they run out of $$?

I already see some of them crying on national television lamenting about how they are going to survive a strike; already looking to flip burgers or bag groceries.

[egmcaninch]

This will impact many more people than those who may want a new car - restaurants, hotels, grocery stores, etc.

[ROCKETMAN]

The average employee in the union makes $33.00 per hour about $67000 annually. They want $40.00 per hour which comes out to #80000 annually .

[coconutmama]

This will impact many more people than those who may want a new car - restaurants, hotels, grocery stores, etc.

Yes, indeed. Landlords, bank loans, stock market…did you notice that the plants are in many states with an average lower wage to begin with? Time will tell how it all works out

[Zincbemi]

When I started at Ford in Dearborn in 1976 there were 1.5 million UAW active members. Today that number stands at about 400,000. You would think by now the union would understand that you need to be a partner to the companies (getting a fair living) and not demand outrageous hourly rate increases (47%) or lower working hours (32 vs 40) for the same pay.

[Norge]

Uneducated!you mean skills

[Blackbird45]

The last five years of my career I negotiated contracts for my Local. There were two main take aways, first the union members always demanded more than I knew they were going to get. The second was employer's negotiators were just that, hired guns whose jobs depended on bringing whatever was negotiated in at the lowest possible rate even if it was unlivable. It also wasn't just salary, also pensions, health care contribution and working conditions. I still have a copy of the last contract I negotiated there are 27 signatures on their side and mine. There is a book titled "The North Will Rise Again" which is probably out of print, and it laid out what employers and banks did to make a profit without regard to the employees and many times at their expense. As far as AI and Mexico if employers believe they can save a dime per unit they will do so, no matter if they are paying their employees $50 or $5. I know many people are against unions for one reason or another, but I hope you understand that nonunion employee's wages and benefits increase, when union rates and conditions increase, as these nonunion employers have to compete in the labor market.

[wsachs]

Just a few things unions haven given all of us, even if you weren't in a union. Non union employees usually got the same thing without paying dues or fighting for those things. The weekend, end of child labor, 40 hour work week, 8 hour day, unemployment benefits, workers comp laws, employer based health insurance, family and medical leave act, fair wages and income equality, safer work places, and pensions are just some of the things unions have done for all of us. Which two or three would you like to give up?

[photo1902]

Just a few things unions haven given all of us, even if you weren't in a union. Non union employees usually got the same thing without paying dues or fighting for those things. The weekend, end of child labor, 40 hour work week, 8 hour day, unemployment benefits, workers comp laws, employer based health insurance, family and medical leave act, fair wages and income equality, safer work places, and pensions are just some of the things unions have done for all of us. Which two or three would you like to give up?

You can thank Henry Ford for the weekends off and a 40 hour week.

[Robbb]

The average employee in the union makes $33.00 per hour about $67000 annually. They want $40.00 per hour which comes out to #80000 annually .

Double that to get their total compensation with profit sharing and benefits.

[MandoMan]

Amazes me that union uneducated skells think they need more than minumum wage to put a tire on a car.

Just like paying McDonalds burger flippers $15 an hour…oh wait, where did those kiosks come from?

“skell (plural skells) (slang, US, New York) a homeless person, especially one who sleeps in the New York subway.” Do you have any reason to believe the union members who work for car companies are homeless? Actually, they own homes and buy cars and pay a lot more in taxes than people who work for minimum wage. Do you have any reason to think that they are stupider than non-union workers who earn less and have worse benefits? Do you really think that union members should have to work for minimum wage? Thousands of Villagers live here because their union wages and pensions and other benefits made that possible. They aren’t wealthy, but they are here, and they are honest Americans who used to work hard.

I was a member of the union at the university where I taught for 34 years. My union dues were 1% of salary, my salary was a little higher than some other schools in the area, but we fought for fair salaries for adjunct professors who were being paid poorly, and we got them. It’s because of my union that my school and I set aside retirement funds for me, and that is why I can afford to live in The Villages today.

I don’t like to see unions over-reaching, and many have, and some have been dishonest, but study histories of the American labor movement and see how unions have worked to get union members fair pay instead of minimum pay.

IF the UAW gets the 40% raise over four years that it is asking for, which isn’t likely, at the END of those four years the average salary will go up to $32 an hour. That’s $66,000 a year, before taxes and FICA and pension and union dues. How much did you earn before you retired? The UAW is also asking for a yearly cost of living allowance. You’ve been complaining about inflation. Your Social Security got an 8.7% COL allowance this year. So the people actually working don’t deserve that?

[JP]

Unions destroyed the Big Three once and it looks like they want to do it again. I'm thinking there is some collusion with management, as usual, since EV's and new cars in general aren't selling and there is an oversupply of both which a strike will help eliminate. I think vehicles, especially EV's are crazily overpriced and the consumer won't be able to pay higher prices for the vehicles that would be necessary with wage increases. Good luck.

[MrFlorida]

Unions on strike, and your other jobs are being outsourced to India and the Philippines.... we are in trouble...

[Marine1974]

$80,000 a year due to inflation and the the government printing money digitally( our dollar is devalued ) is not that much when you look at what the costs are for housing, groceries, gasoline, electric, natural gas , etc etc . So in essence the middle class are slowly decreasing in numbers . I think unions are more important now than ever .

[Johnsocat]

Public opinion of unions might be better if they didn't use union dues to contribute to political parties and simply invested in those who pay them with a percentage of their wages...

[Cybersprings]

$80,000 a year due to inflation and the the government printing money digitally( our dollar is devalued ) is not that much when you look at what the costs are for housing, groceries, gasoline, electric, natural gas , etc etc . So in essence the middle class are slowly decreasing in numbers . I think unions are more important now than ever .

I took micro and macro economics in college over 35 years ago, so I remember some and many things sound familiar, but I am far from an expert (or whatever the term is for the next few levels down). From a brief bit of research, I found this:
"The 5 causes of inflation are increase in wages, increase in the price of raw materials, increase in taxes, decline in productivity, increase in money supply."

From my perspective and experience, unions are a negative factor in 4 of the 5 causes.

[Vermilion Villager]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

Hahahaha....sure like to find out what you did for a living!

[Cybersprings]

From my perspective as a union member and a supervisor, unions are a necessary "evil".
They have many excesses and negative effects on companies and the government, yet they are necessary because (much of) management does such stupid and heartless stuff all the time.

[KAM+6]

Ford CEO Jim Farley made $21 million in 2022. Sounds fair!!!

[Cybersprings]

Just a few things unions haven given all of us, even if you weren't in a union. Non union employees usually got the same thing without paying dues or fighting for those things. The weekend, end of child labor, 40 hour work week, 8 hour day, unemployment benefits, workers comp laws, employer based health insurance, family and medical leave act, fair wages and income equality, safer work places, and pensions are just some of the things unions have done for all of us. Which two or three would you like to give up?

For those things listed that the union actually gave us or had a major influence in, I don't want to give up any and I am appreciative of all they they did. But, there are too many wrongs that they have done to list and ask you which ones you support.

[Cybersprings]

Ford CEO Jim Farley made $21 million in 2022. Sounds fair!!!

Who actually believes that life is or is supposed to be fair?
What does fair actually mean in this case?

[Blackbird45]

“skell (plural skells) (slang, US, New York) a homeless person, especially one who sleeps in the New York subway.” Do you have any reason to believe the union members who work for car companies are homeless? Actually, they own homes and buy cars and pay a lot more in taxes than people who work for minimum wage. Do you have any reason to think that they are stupider than non-union workers who earn less and have worse benefits? Do you really think that union members should have to work for minimum wage? Thousands of Villagers live here because their union wages and pensions and other benefits made that possible. They aren’t wealthy, but they are here, and they are honest Americans who used to work hard.

I was a member of the union at the university where I taught for 34 years. My union dues were 1% of salary, my salary was a little higher than some other schools in the area, but we fought for fair salaries for adjunct professors who were being paid poorly, and we got them. It’s because of my union that my school and I set aside retirement funds for me, and that is why I can afford to live in The Villages today.

I don’t like to see unions over-reaching, and many have, and some have been dishonest, but study histories of the American labor movement and see how unions have worked to get union members fair pay instead of minimum pay.

Reading your response, it seems unless you're a CEO in this country you are stupid. Also, that people should not have the right to demand what they believe they are worth. I get the impression instead of people trying to increase their wealth for themselves and their families you believe other than the boss everyone should be living in a cardboard box.

[Cybersprings]

Reading your response, it seems unless you're a CEO in this country you are stupid. Also, that people should not have the right to demand what they believe they are worth. I get the impression instead of people trying to increase their wealth for themselves and their families you believe other than the boss everyone should be living in a cardboard box.

Wow. You missed the intent of that post by 100%. The post was acknowledging some excesses while touting the benefits of unions. And even if your understanding of the overall perspective was correct, where does someone come up with them saying "everyone but the CEO is stupid" or "every one but the boss should be living in a card board box." My only guess is that you replied to the wrong post (I have had that happen where I thought I clicked reply on one and it brought up a different post than intended.)

[Blackbird45]

There were reasons unions came to be and still exist. If you want to end unions, then there should be a move to profit sharing.
I was a negotiator in an industry where it is well known for its profits and wealth. Yet when I sat across the table with the company's negotiators, they cried poverty. It was almost laughable. I was friendly with the people I was in the room with, because I knew they were hired to do one job, to bring in the contract as low as they could. It didn't matter if the employees were making a living wage or not or if they were working in safe conditions or not. I don't totally understand all the issues the UAW are having, but I do know when the auto industry was in trouble not only did the government step in with taxpayer's back loans, but the union made a lot of concessions.
As the companies start to recover management increased their benefits and held the union to its concessions. There is something wrong with this. If the unions have to stay where they are than management should do the same and the investors should be the ones reaping the profits.

[jparsoneau@aol.com]

So I grew up in a union house. When unions used to take care of their employees. Now the unions just seem to be bullies and push their weight around demanding monthly payments from their members regardless of how they feel.
And some of these people where do you get your numbers from? I don’t know but I’ve heard it multiple times they wanted 46% pay increase over four years. And they want to work 32 hours a week and get paid for 40 hours a week. who gets paid for things they don’t do?

[Chi-Town]

The only thing new about this UAW strike is that it against the Big 3 at one time.

[Blackbird45]

“skell (plural skells) (slang, US, New York) a homeless person, especially one who sleeps in the New York subway.” Do you have any reason to believe the union members who work for car companies are homeless? Actually, they own homes and buy cars and pay a lot more in taxes than people who work for minimum wage. Do you have any reason to think that they are stupider than non-union workers who earn less and have worse benefits? Do you really think that union members should have to work for minimum wage? Thousands of Villagers live here because their union wages and pensions and other benefits made that possible. They aren’t wealthy, but they are here, and they are honest Americans who used to work hard.

I was a member of the union at the university where I taught for 34 years. My union dues were 1% of salary, my salary was a little higher than some other schools in the area, but we fought for fair salaries for adjunct professors who were being paid poorly, and we got them. It’s because of my union that my school and I set aside retirement funds for me, and that is why I can afford to live in The Villages today.

I don’t like to see unions over-reaching, and many have, and some have been dishonest, but study histories of the American labor movement and see how unions have worked to get union members fair pay instead of minimum pay.

I totally apologize, the minute I read stupid in your post I went ballistic. Now that I reread you posting I totally agree with you.

[Stu from NYC]

So I grew up in a union house. When unions used to take care of their employees. Now the unions just seem to be bullies and push their weight around demanding monthly payments from their members regardless of how they feel.
And some of these people where do you get your numbers from? I don’t know but I’ve heard it multiple times they wanted 46% pay increase over four years. And they want to work 32 hours a week and get paid for 40 hours a week. who gets paid for things they don’t do?

Unions did a great job improving working conditions. When they prevented companies from either firing people for cause or require people to actually work and became unreasonable asking for higher wages whether or not the company could afford it they lost a lot of their benefit.

[Keefelane66]

Public opinion of unions might be better if they didn't use union dues to contribute to political parties and simply invested in those who pay them with a percentage of their wages...
As a manager non-Union I was required to donate a percentage of my wages to a PAC, refusing was a sentence of death for promotions.
The monetary amount contributed was substantially more than the Union dues.

[Blackbird45]

So I grew up in a union house. When unions used to take care of their employees. Now the unions just seem to be bullies and push their weight around demanding monthly payments from their members regardless of how they feel.
And some of these people where do you get your numbers from? I don’t know but I’ve heard it multiple times they wanted 46% pay increase over four years. And they want to work 32 hours a week and get paid for 40 hours a week. who gets paid for things they don’t do?

I'm sorry you have that view of unions. I'm not sure what unions you're talking about, but when I left working in the field and took over as a rep, I made much less than before and was on the clock 24/7 and was on a plane covering my district twice a month. Like I said in an earlier posting the only reasons union exist is because there is a need for them. When it comes to negotiation most members and employer have outlandish expectations and that what is usually the first thing that hits the table. The big goal is that there will be some meeting of the minds to avoid a strike.
In this case that is not what happened and both sides are at fault.

[Blackbird45]

The subject of PAC money has been raised. Our union supported and anyone that support our cause, it didn't matter what side of the isle they were on, and employers do the same. It's the cost of doing business, if I had my why neither side should be subjected to this.
But as we all know as long as there are politicians involved, they will always be someone with their hand out for cash in exchange for a favor.

[easeonby]

They need to realise that they will be working themselves right out of a good paying job.

[easeonby]

So you will be paying 30-40% more for a Chevy, ford, or ram, which are already overpriced for the quality you get. Every job in these plants are anlready automated so the worker doesn’t have to lift anything heavy, robots help carry, or actually do the more demanding physical work. I hope all of these car manufacturers go broke after they. Implement this and all the workers go from making good money to $0. There are much better made cars here in the US that won’t be affected by this and I hope they all thrive.

Exactly, They better realise that they will be working themselves right out of a job.

[Topspinmo]

Tesla is building a multi-Billion $ factory in Mexico. UAW made cars won't be able to compete on costs.

Funny how Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mitsubishi, and more which all assemble vehicles in USA not effected isn’t it. Maybe little three needs to use their business model.

Hard to compete with average 5.25 wage in Mexico for auto workers isn’t it.

[Wondering]

Unions made this country. Corporate greed! Union workers' wages haven't kept up with inflation over the past 10 to 15 years. 40% increase of $18 hourly wage only gets them to $25 an hour. Corporate Greed!

[Topspinmo]

Ford CEO Jim Farley made $21 million in 2022. Sounds fair!!!

Chump change to some CEOs. Notice they never mention gov motors or others isn’t it?

[Pennyt]

Amazing to me that everyone is blaming the union workers for wanting a higher wage, yet no one blinks an eye about the upper management making millions of dollars. The distance between the middle class and upper class continue to widen at an astronomical pace. Remember, unions are why workers get holidays, vacation, pensions and safe work environments.

[Topspinmo]

For those things listed that the union actually gave us or had a major influence in, I don't want to give up any and I am appreciative of all they they did. But, there are too many wrongs that they have done to list and ask you which ones you support.

Agree IMO why majority of manufacturing flea overseas. Hard to compete with 5.25 or less hourly wage.

When the government made North American trade the forgot to add hourly wage fairness. No fair trade without level field.

[dawabeav]

Big 3 total labor cost are 10% of the total equation. UAW is asking for everything knowing that they will settle for less. Middle class last stand. Retired UAW member here in the Villages,glade I could be here among all the union haters.

[roscoguy]

The average employee in the union makes $33.00 per hour about $67000 annually. They want $40.00 per hour which comes out to #80000 annually .

You have a source for this claim or are you just throwing out numbers you've 'heard'? Here's what NBC Business News has to say about UAW wages, "Maximum average hourly wages are $31.77 at Stellantis, $32 at Ford and $32.32 at GM." (Emphasis mine) Why the UAW wants big raises from the '''Big Three''' automakers (https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/uaw-strike-pay-benefits-raises-big-three-automakers-rcna103716)

Unions destroyed the Big Three once and it looks like they want to do it again. I'm thinking there is some collusion with management, as usual, since EV's and new cars in general aren't selling and there is an oversupply of both which a strike will help eliminate. I think vehicles, especially EV's are crazily overpriced and the consumer won't be able to pay higher prices for the vehicles that would be necessary with wage increases. Good luck.

Totally one-sided garbage. Management at the Big Three created their own path to 'destruction' by ignoring styling and especially engineering, instead concentrating solely on profits while relying on image and brand-loyalty to maintain their market share. Others, including dealerships and the unions, may share the blame for reduced sales and profit, but dropping this at the feet of the UAW is ridiculous.

[Blackbird45]

There is a simple solution instead of the union getting a raise of any kind which a lot of the posters here seem to have a problem with. Get the CEO to get a pay reduction at the same percent the union gave when the auto makers were in trouble. Let see how fast the CEOs jump on that band wagon. I'm sure it won't be until hell freezes over.

[worcester]

In the mid 1960's I worked at GM in MA as a spot welder. On the welding line was a machine covered in cloth. When I asked my co--workers, what is that? Answer, an automated spot welding machine that the union dictates will not be used so as not to take away a dues paying employee. Soon after, Japanese cars ruled

[worcester]

In the mid 1960's I worked at GM in MA as a spot welder. On the welding line was a machine covered in cloth. When I asked my co--workers, what is that? Answer, an automated spot welding machine that the union dictates will not be used so as not to take away a dues paying employee. Soon after, Japanese cars ruled

[Blackbird45]

Many believe union worker are overpaid and demanding too much, many believe that CEOs compensation is off the charts. As I posted earlier maybe everyone should enter into an agreement of profit sharing. Open up the books for everyone to see. Then negotiate what is considered a fair share for CEOs, workers and let’s not forget the investors. This taken unions and CEOs out of the mix and in the end, investors might come out ahead.

[jimjamuser]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.
That is a pretty anti-union statement. Unions build up the middle class. A strong middle class makes for a strong Democracy. Historically, after WW2 the US middle class was at its strongest and due, in large part, to manufacturing and a large % of Union workers. US families were confident and stated that the next generation will be better off than the previous one. About 1975, that all changed - families no longer stated that the next generation would be better off. That was about the time that the US middle class began to wither. Unions were circumvented by moving factories 1st to the South, then Mexico, then Vietnam, and finally to China. Union membership kept dropping until a slight comeback recently. From 1975 until about 2010 factory workers and most blue-collar workers got ZERO average wage increases, when cost of living is factored in.
........We managed to make China a powerhouse and a strategic enemy, all for the purpose of eliminating the US middle class so that WEALTH could drift upward to the upper 10 or 15 %. Internal revenue laws and income levels were IMPOSED in about 1990 to maintain the WEALTH in the pockets of the upper 15%. Today the MEGA wealthy dominate US business, society, and government.
.........Is US society more stable today than it was in the 1950s through 1975 after the decimation of unions and the middle class? You-all know that question answers itself. Today we are less stable, more chaotic, and WITHOUT a strong middle class. Most Americans would say that their children will NOT be better off than they are. Meanwhile, China has a larger navy than the US and could flex that muscle at any moment about Taiwan.
.........Did the US middle-class benefit from the outsourcing starting around 1970?
...........Also, why is it that Germany values its UNIONS - and Management and Unions get along patriotically? Germany is doing fine economically. And their union people get off 1 month per year.

[mtdjed]

Ford CEO Jim Farley made $21 million in 2022. Sounds fair!!!

Stephen Curry Golden State Warriers $51 million. Sounds Fair!!! Salary has no relationship to the lowest paid Golden State Warrier employee.

[jimjamuser]

Just a matter of time before AI replaces management. AI works for much less than a fortune 500 CEO at 300x the average worker.
A.I. could replace lower or middle management, but 1st A.I. in combination with robotics would replace blue-collar workers. As far as replacing top executives, that is unlikely because once WEALTH moves FROM the middle class TO the Upper class, it does NOT move back except through a war or revolution.
.......If A.I. and robotics decided to eliminate humans (as in MANY Sci-Fi movies) - then ALL bets are off!

[Jima72]

Tesla is building a multi-Billion $ factory in Mexico. UAW made cars won't be able to compete on costs.

My last two vehicles were made in mexico and I drove them for 27 years total..

[jimjamuser]

Tesla is building a multi-Billion $ factory in Mexico. UAW made cars won't be able to compete on costs.
I believe that I heard that more US cars are made in Mexico than in the US. That may be good for upper management, which gave themselves 40% raises (on top of already BIG salaries) - but is it good for middle America and America in general? I would say.....NOT.
.........Was it NOT Henry Ford who said he wanted to PAY his workers well so that THEY could afford to buy a new Ford? If the US is helping Mexico and the Mexican worker, then maybe we could ask them NICELY to please control the illegal border crossings.
.........Funny how Japan and Toyota can make vehicles profitably here IN the US of A, but we CAN'T. Might have something to do with profit and GREED.

[jimjamuser]

Amazes me that union uneducated skells think they need more than minumum wage to put a tire on a car.

Just like paying McDonalds burger flippers $15 an hour…oh wait, where did those kiosks come from?
Would most MIT graduates be good at putting a tire on a car?
.......Imagine a society where everyone was a Medical Doctor or a rocket scientist.

[jimjamuser]

The issues.


Access Denied (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/uaw-strikes-everything-you-need-to-know.html)


As UAW strike looms, auto workers want 4-day, 32-hour workweek, among other contract demands - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uaw-strike-update-four-day-work-week-32-hours/?ftag=YHF4eb9d17)
A 4-day workweek has advantages. It would be good for teachers because it would cut down the costs for school buses. And for auto workers or other factory or office workers, it would decrease the gasoline used to commute and cut pollution. Also, cut down on traffic accidents and slowdowns, which waste gas and waste time.

[jimjamuser]

This may a long strike.

Ford said that the UAW's proposals would more than double its US labour costs.

And the members 97% of the union's members voted to authorise a strike.

Hard to see common ground there.
They could lower their labor costs by making E-vehicles, which have fewer parts.

[jimjamuser]

They could lower their labor costs by making E-vehicles, which have fewer parts.

[Tvflguy]

I believe that I heard that more US cars are made in Mexico than in the US. That may be good for upper management, which gave themselves 40% raises (on top of already BIG salaries) - but is it good for middle America and America in general? I would say.....NOT.
.........Was it NOT Henry Ford who said he wanted to PAY his workers well so that THEY could afford to buy a new Ford? If the US is helping Mexico and the Mexican worker, then maybe we could ask them NICELY to please control the illegal border crossings.
.........Funny how Japan and Toyota can make vehicles profitably here IN the US of A, but we CAN'T. Might have something to do with profit and GREED.

Tesla makes a lot of its EVs right here in the USA and makes a very healthy profit. Also huge plants in Shanghai and Germany. And planning more. Not unionized and apparently workers are very busy and happy.

Unfortunately the legacy car firms here in the USA cannot compete easily. Volkswagen and Toyota will be in serious trouble in a few years- laggards in EV tech. Matter of fact all car firms in Japan may be in serious trouble within five years.

Disruption in the auto industry worldwide. Beware when Chinese EV makers sell in the USA. Many are very very good and can undercut others. Just like in the 80s when Japan came to USA. Luckily Tesla will flourish here and other countries.

[jimjamuser]

When I started at Ford in Dearborn in 1976 there were 1.5 million UAW active members. Today that number stands at about 400,000. You would think by now the union would understand that you need to be a partner to the companies (getting a fair living) and not demand outrageous hourly rate increases (47%) or lower working hours (32 vs 40) for the same pay.
Unions and management work it out well in Germany. Why NOT here?

[Cybersprings]

Unions made this country. Corporate greed! Union workers' wages haven't kept up with inflation over the past 10 to 15 years. 40% increase of $18 hourly wage only gets them to $25 an hour. Corporate Greed!

Please take into account my other posts on this matter. I do not want to repeat them.
1. How many of their own dollars have the unions put at risk, i.e. invested into business and stood the chance of losing?
2. Which workers that are the subject of this thread are making $18 per hour? I did not see anywhere near that figure, but I may have missed it.
3. Corporate Greed. How much of your money do you invest for the purpose of making the lives of the workers better rather than getting a good rate of return?

[Cybersprings]

Funny how Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mitsubishi, and more which all assemble vehicles in USA not effected isn’t it. Maybe little three needs to use their business model.

Hard to compete with average 5.25 wage in Mexico for auto workers isn’t it.

I am for smaller government and support capitalism. But, I think (without putting time into studying the pros and cons) I am completely in favor of tariffs on those goods that are outsourced to countries and then brought back in for sale when those countries have tariffs on goods being sold there. I believe the American worker deserves for the goverment to provide them with a level playing field within which to compete, not guaranteed outcomes or income.

[jimjamuser]

Unions destroyed the Big Three once and it looks like they want to do it again. I'm thinking there is some collusion with management, as usual, since EV's and new cars in general aren't selling and there is an oversupply of both which a strike will help eliminate. I think vehicles, especially EV's are crazily overpriced and the consumer won't be able to pay higher prices for the vehicles that would be necessary with wage increases. Good luck.
EVs are 8% of new car sales in the US. They are about 20% in Europe.

[Cybersprings]

A 4-day workweek has advantages. It would be good for teachers because it would cut down the costs for school buses. And for auto workers or other factory or office workers, it would decrease the gasoline used to commute and cut pollution. Also, cut down on traffic accidents and slowdowns, which waste gas and waste time.

1.Should they get paid the same for those 4 days as they do for 5? if so, why?
2.Is it better for the students? Quite funny when analyzing education practices, the effect on students (the primary mission of schools) was not mentioned.

[Cybersprings]

EVs are 8% of new car sales in the US. They are about 20% in Europe.

After you posted this last time, someone else said it had been rising and just reached 6%. Do you have a source?

[Cybersprings]

They could lower their labor costs by making E-vehicles, which have fewer parts.

If E-vehicles have fewer parts and labor costs are lower, why are e-vehicles more expensive than the ICE version of the same vehicle?

[jimjamuser]

I took micro and macro economics in college over 35 years ago, so I remember some and many things sound familiar, but I am far from an expert (or whatever the term is for the next few levels down). From a brief bit of research, I found this:
"The 5 causes of inflation are increase in wages, increase in the price of raw materials, increase in taxes, decline in productivity, increase in money supply."

From my perspective and experience, unions are a negative factor in 4 of the 5 causes.
How then to explain why unions are so popular in Germany?

[Cybersprings]

Would most MIT graduates be good at putting a tire on a car?
.......Imagine a society where everyone was a Medical Doctor or a rocket scientist.

Imagine a society where the person putting the tire on a car made the same amount as the people who risked their money to build a factory to build the car that the person was putting the tire on with no risk to their money.

[jimjamuser]

Who actually believes that life is or is supposed to be fair?
What does fair actually mean in this case?
Fair may be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in life. That's why we have laws.

[LoisR]

Must be a mid westerner. Low pay, no benefits, poor education, no union of course.
Interesting how people who didn't have the fortitude to start a union now hate unions. Gee, I wonder why? Pitiful.

[Stu from NYC]

I believe that I heard that more US cars are made in Mexico than in the US. That may be good for upper management, which gave themselves 40% raises (on top of already BIG salaries) - but is it good for middle America and America in general? I would say.....NOT.
.........Was it NOT Henry Ford who said he wanted to PAY his workers well so that THEY could afford to buy a new Ford? If the US is helping Mexico and the Mexican worker, then maybe we could ask them NICELY to please control the illegal border crossings.
.........Funny how Japan and Toyota can make vehicles profitably here IN the US of A, but we CAN'T. Might have something to do with profit and GREED.

Japanese companies can make vehicles profitably here because they do not have something the big 3 have. UNIONS with a much higher wage rate.

Union work rules do slow down production and productivity at many companies.

[Cybersprings]

How then to explain why unions are so popular in Germany?

No clue whatsoever. I will even have to take your word that that is a true statement. I have enough trouble trying not to make a fool of myself with U.S. things without wading into other countries goingson.

[Cybersprings]

Fair may be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in life. That's why we have laws.

Wow. If you EXPECT fairness, you must live a miserable existence. Your expectations would be dashed most everywhere you turn. A unmet expectatons are a primary source of anger.

I thought we had laws for justice though, not fairness. I've been wrong before though.
Can you provide an example of a law that is intended to ensure fairness.

[Cybersprings]

Must be a mid westerner. Low pay, no benefits, poor education, no union of course.
Interesting how people who didn't have the fortitude to start a union now hate unions. Gee, I wonder why? Pitiful.

Can you please provide an example of unions making education better in your neck of the woods?

[JMintzer]

They could lower their labor costs by making E-vehicles, which have fewer parts.

And fire those union workers? Not very "pro-middle class" of you...

[JMintzer]

EVs are 8% of new car sales in the US. They are about 20% in Europe.

No they aren't...

[JMintzer]

After you posted this last time, someone else said it had been rising and just reached 6%. Do you have a source?

Of course not...

P.S. I'm the one who actually looked up the #

[Topspinmo]

The big three should collude together and fire them all. Start over with foreign auto makers business model in this country. I don’t hear none of them complaining?…. Once electric vehicles pickup won’t need half of them anyway.

[JMintzer]

If E-vehicles have fewer parts and labor costs are lower, why are e-vehicles more expensive than the ICE version of the same vehicle?

CORPORATE GREEEEED!

Oh, wait, they lose money on every EV they sell...

Ford loses $32K per EV...

From NPR: "Ford's numbers work out to a loss of about $32,000 per EV that it sold in the second quarter, compared to a profit of $3,200 per vehicle sold by the Ford Blue division. "

[JMintzer]

How then to explain why unions are so popular in Germany?

They have a completely different culture...

[JMintzer]

Fair may be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in life. That's why we have laws.

Complete nonsense...

[Cybersprings]

EVs are 8% of new car sales in the US. They are about 20% in Europe.

I wasted my time to go look this up.
Sales of electric cars in the EU broke records in 2022. Which country in Europe is leading the way? | Euronews (https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/20/sales-of-electric-cars-in-the-eu-broke-records-in-2022-which-country-in-europe-is-leading)

"Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) - pure electric vehicles - also broke records in 2022, taking 12.1 per cent of the total market share, compared to 9.1 per cent in 2021, or 1.9 per cent in 2019."

If you round up to the nearest 20% then about 20% is an accurate statement. But then again that would be true if there were .1%.
So, basically it is a lie.

Do you have a better source? Or since about 100% of your statements are wrong (rounding up to the nearest 100%), should we just ignore your posts?

[jimjamuser]

Many believe union worker are overpaid and demanding too much, many believe that CEOs compensation is off the charts. As I posted earlier maybe everyone should enter into an agreement of profit sharing. Open up the books for everyone to see. Then negotiate what is considered a fair share for CEOs, workers and let’s not forget the investors. This taken unions and CEOs out of the mix and in the end, investors might come out ahead.
I believe that around 1980 Harley Davidson went bankrupt and the workers purchased the company (and did profit sharing, I think) and made it profitable and produced better motorcycles. Something like that happened with the Green Bay Packers also. The city owns them.

[Blackbird45]

The big three should collude together and fire them all. Start over with foreign auto makers business model in this country. I don’t hear none of them complaining?…. Once electric vehicles pickup won’t need half of them anyway.

Why stop with the big 3, let fire everybody. Everybody can sit home you can watch the economy tank. Then not only can you complain about the unions, you can complain about the government, why you can't put food on the table, maybe you can watch Wheel of Fortune, that of course there are any union workers to air the show. What a great world

[Cybersprings]

I believe that around 1980 Harley Davidson went bankrupt and the workers purchased the company (and did profit sharing, I think) and made it profitable and produced better motorcycles. Something like that happened with the Green Bay Packers also. The city owns them.

The City owns the Green Bay Packers and that is similar to profit sharing with employees???? I have got to go back to school and learn these new-fangled concepts. Wouldn't the players owning the team be the correct comparison??? Or are we asserting that the government should own the means of production for things? I'm not sure, but I think there is a word for that. starts with social....but I can't get the whole word to come to mind.

[jimjamuser]

Tesla makes a lot of its EVs right here in the USA and makes a very healthy profit. Also huge plants in Shanghai and Germany. And planning more. Not unionized and apparently workers are very busy and happy.

Unfortunately the legacy car firms here in the USA cannot compete easily. Volkswagen and Toyota will be in serious trouble in a few years- laggards in EV tech. Matter of fact all car firms in Japan may be in serious trouble within five years.

Disruption in the auto industry worldwide. Beware when Chinese EV makers sell in the USA. Many are very very good and can undercut others. Just like in the 80s when Japan came to USA. Luckily Tesla will flourish here and other countries.
E-vehicles have great potential for profit because they use fewer parts. Also, they have some other advantages over piston internal Combustion engine vehicles. The US big 3 are trying to switch to EVs as fast as they can.

[jimjamuser]

1.Should they get paid the same for those 4 days as they do for 5? if so, why?
2.Is it better for the students? Quite funny when analyzing education practices, the effect on students (the primary mission of schools) was not mentioned.
In a school system, the 5th day could be done by personal computer at home.

[Stu from NYC]

Complete nonsense...

Ever notice that some posters have an ax to grind and come here to do nothing but push their agenda?

[mtdjed]

I believe that I heard that more US cars are made in Mexico than in the US. That may be good for upper management, which gave themselves 40% raises (on top of already BIG salaries) - but is it good for middle America and America in general? I would say.....NOT.
.........Was it NOT Henry Ford who said he wanted to PAY his workers well so that THEY could afford to buy a new Ford? If the US is helping Mexico and the Mexican worker, then maybe we could ask them NICELY to please control the illegal border crossings.
.........Funny how Japan and Toyota can make vehicles profitably here IN the US of A, but we CAN'T. Might have something to do with profit and GREED.

We are not a self sufficient isolated island nation. The market place is global. There may be some technologies that we can protect but for the most part, manufacturing things like bricks, TV's, washing machines, automobiles can be globally produced and marketed. So, if you are in one of those markets, you have to have a competitive price. Price is a function of being competitive in quality and price. Price is a function of labor, overhead, material and profit. If you let anyone of those things to expand, you have to decrease others to remain viable. Labor goes up, automate or outsource. If you don't, you will go out of business.

[Cybersprings]

In a school system, the 5th day could be done by personal computer at home.

Are you asserting that all students have a personal computer to access or that the government/schoo system should provide them for them all?
Are you asserting that virtual learning for school aged children is a effective as in person?

[jimjamuser]

If E-vehicles have fewer parts and labor costs are lower, why are e-vehicles more expensive than the ICE version of the same vehicle?
In ANY manufacturing process, the MORE units that are made, the lower the cost per unit. When E-vehicles are made in numbers equal to Internal Combustion numbers, THEN because of fewer parts for the EV, the EV costs will be LOWER.

[Cybersprings]

Ever notice that some posters have an ax to grind and come here to do nothing but push their agenda?

The post to which you replied stated "pure nonsense."
The post to which the pure nonsense was made was "Fair may be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in life. That's why we have laws."

This is a legitimate question as I may have missed something in translation. Which post was yours in reference to? if it was the pure nonsense post, what was their axe to grind and what was the agenda?
sorry, not trying to be antagonistic (at least on this post) just trying to follow the conversation.

[Cybersprings]

In ANY manufacturing process, the MORE units that are made, the lower the cost per unit. When E-vehicles are made in numbers equal to Internal Combustion numbers, THEN because of fewer parts for the EV, the EV costs will be LOWER.


I know that is a general principal but is that ALWAYS true? Do we know that the components of batteries have a lower cost per unit as they increase, or might they be a scarce resource that increasing demand without the ability to easily increase supply would in fact increase the price per unit? Like TVs, cars and trucks as computer chips became scarce in the recent past? Or maybe the cost per unit actually increases until such time as a completely seperate supply chain has to be developed and some time down the road, who knows how far, the cost per unit MAY come down?

[jimjamuser]

Wow. If you EXPECT fairness, you must live a miserable existence. Your expectations would be dashed most everywhere you turn. A unmet expectatons are a primary source of anger.

I thought we had laws for justice though, not fairness. I've been wrong before though.
Can you provide an example of a law that is intended to ensure fairness.
Justice equals fairness. Today people would say something is a FAIR price. Years ago someone might have said that something is a JUST price.
.......Another example, Judges TRY to give the same sentence to different criminals for the same crime. They call it sentencing guidelines.

[jimjamuser]

Wow. If you EXPECT fairness, you must live a miserable existence. Your expectations would be dashed most everywhere you turn. A unmet expectatons are a primary source of anger.

I thought we had laws for justice though, not fairness. I've been wrong before though.
Can you provide an example of a law that is intended to ensure fairness.
I am perfectly happy. The world is basically FAIR. luck is also a big factor!

[Robbb]

E-vehicles have great potential for profit because they use fewer parts. Also, they have some other advantages over piston internal Combustion engine vehicles. The US big 3 are trying to switch to EVs as fast as they can.

Yea I get all that but the fact is NO one is buying them. Last quarter GM sold a total of 3,300 ev cars.

[Robbb]

Can you please provide an example of unions making education better in your neck of the woods?

Unions in Minneapolis have made incredible advancements in education. 5 years ago 60% of children of color could not read at grade level, now 81% cannot read at grade level. With more funding they could easily reach 90% of kids unable to read at grade level.

[jimjamuser]

I wasted my time to go look this up.
Sales of electric cars in the EU broke records in 2022. Which country in Europe is leading the way? | Euronews (https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/20/sales-of-electric-cars-in-the-eu-broke-records-in-2022-which-country-in-europe-is-leading)

"Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) - pure electric vehicles - also broke records in 2022, taking 12.1 per cent of the total market share, compared to 9.1 per cent in 2021, or 1.9 per cent in 2019."

If you round up to the nearest 20% then about 20% is an accurate statement. But then again that would be true if there were .1%.
So, basically it is a lie.

Do you have a better source? Or since about 100% of your statements are wrong (rounding up to the nearest 100%), should we just ignore your posts?
Some posters seem very picky and argumentative about every subject. Apparently, they have a NEED to feel superior. I would be honored if they would ignore me.

[Cybersprings]

Justice equals fairness. Today people would say something is a FAIR price. Years ago someone might have said that something is a JUST price.
.......Another example, Judges TRY to give the same sentence to different criminals for the same crime. They call it sentencing guidelines.

I disagree. Fairness is an eye for an eye. That is not what our justice system is about.

[jimjamuser]

Yea I get all that but the fact is NO one is buying them. Last quarter GM sold a total of 3,300 ev cars.
In 1900 more people bought horses than automobiles. E-vehicles today are like Infernal Combustion Engine vehicles were in 1900. EVs have a long road of development ahead of them. IC vehicles are rapidly becoming classic and antiques.

[Cybersprings]

I am perfectly happy. The world is basically FAIR. luck is also a big factor!

Really? Really ? Lucky is by definition unfair. Fairness would mean everyone is lucky. Then it wouldn't be luck, it would just be.

Is it fair that (I assume) that you were born in the U.S. and so many people are born into extreme poverty in other countries?
Is it fair that you have clean drinking water and millions do not?
Is it fair that you get to live in the villages and an 18 year old cannot be an owner?
Is it fair that you have Freedom of Speech and Religion and so many do not?
The list is infinite and the answer to all is no. Life is not fair and is not even close to fair. You just have to make the best out of whatever you are dealt. Then some other points, but they are religious so I will leave them out so as not to side track things completely.

[Cybersprings]

In 1900 more people bought horses than automobiles. E-vehicles today are like Infernal Combustion Engine vehicles were in 1900. EVs have a long road of development ahead of them. IC vehicles are rapidly becoming classic and antiques.

Define rapidly? Since over 90% of cars sold in the U.S. are ICEs, how are they antiquated? They are brand new and have MANY positives over the EVs (just as the EV has positives over the ICEs). You are just many years ahead of your time, if your time actually comes.

[Gpsma]

Biden said the workers should have a share of the profits….lol. Oh sure, mindless, tire mounters should share in profits…ignorant union fool doesnt understand economics….just understands a bud after work.

[Cybersprings]

Some posters seem very picky and argumentative about every subject. Apparently, they have a NEED to feel superior. I would be honored if they would ignore me.

And I would be honored if I had any effect at all in stopping the posting of lies. Do you think 12% is about 20%? really?
How would it even make me superior to correct mistatements????
I didn't do anything to determine the numbers.
I didn't do anything to affect the numbers
I do not have access to any better information than anyone else (assuming they have the internet which a very high percentage of posters on TOTV do).
I do not have any better education than anyone else (that I know of).
I do not know my IQ or anyone else's on here.

How about trying what I do when someone points out that I am wrong.
1. Admit you are wrong and move on.
2. Don't continue to restate the exact same sentences even after you have been shown that it is wrong.

[Pugchief]

Fair may be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in life. That's why we have laws.

Isn't Climate Change THE MOST IMPORTANT? At least I could swear you said that in other threads...

[Pugchief]

E-vehicles have great potential for profit because they use fewer parts. Also, they have some other advantages over piston internal Combustion engine vehicles. The US big 3 are trying to switch to EVs as fast as they can.

No, the government is forcing them to switch to EVs by banning ICEs.

[Pugchief]

Unions in Minneapolis have made incredible advancements in education. 5 years ago 60% of children of color could not read at grade level, now 81% cannot read at grade level. With more funding they could easily reach 90% of kids unable to read at grade level.

There must be no unions in Chicago then. Reports out last week have less that 10% of children of color reading or doing math at grade level.

[JMintzer]

I believe that around 1980 Harley Davidson went bankrupt and the workers purchased the company (and did profit sharing, I think) and made it profitable and produced better motorcycles. Something like that happened with the Green Bay Packers also. The city owns them.

Are the Packers now playing better football?

[JMintzer]

E-vehicles have great potential for profit because they use fewer parts. Also, they have some other advantages over piston internal Combustion engine vehicles. The US big 3 are trying to switch to EVs as fast as they can.

And they are losing 10's of thousands of $$$ on every one sold...

[JMintzer]

Ever notice that some posters have an ax to grind and come here to do nothing but push their agenda?

No, really? ;)

[Pugchief]

maybe everyone should enter into an agreement of profit sharing

Should this apply to all employees or just auto workers?

Thought experiment: Smart kid goes to college, then medical or dental school. Defers 8+ years of income while training. Comes out of school half a million dollars in debt. Then takes on another half million in debt to start a practice. Now needs to hire a high school graduate as assistant or receptionist. Should that assistant get a cut of the profits? If so, why? Did they invest 8 years of their life and a million dollars of capital?

[JMintzer]

The post to which you replied stated "pure nonsense."
The post to which the pure nonsense was made was "Fair may be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in life. That's why we have laws."

This is a legitimate question as I may have missed something in translation. Which post was yours in reference to? if it was the pure nonsense post, what was their axe to grind and what was the agenda?
sorry, not trying to be antagonistic (at least on this post) just trying to follow the conversation.

He wasn't using my post as an example. He was using the post I responded to as an example... You know, "Jimmy One Note"...

[Pugchief]

Are the Packers now playing better football?

Better than the Bears....

[JMintzer]

Unions in Minneapolis have made incredible advancements in education. 5 years ago 60% of children of color could not read at grade level, now 81% cannot read at grade level. With more funding they could easily reach 90% of kids unable to read at grade level.

Unions did that? Please explain how...

[JMintzer]

Some posters seem very picky and argumentative about every subject. Apparently, they have a NEED to feel superior. I would be honored if they would ignore me.

Some posters pull facts out of their... er... Thin Air... And then lecture everyone else about what THEY should do without actually doing it themselves...

Oh, and some of them HAVE ignored me...

[JMintzer]

No, the government is forcing them to switch to EVs by banning ICEs.

Prezaxctly...

[JMintzer]

There must be no unions in Chicago then. Reports out last week have less that 10% of children of color reading or doing math at grade level.

Same thing in B'more...

[JMintzer]

Better than the Bears....

That's a pretty low bar... (runs away, hiding, as a "Commanders" fan...) :D

But, at least we finally got rid of Dan Snyder!!!

[Stu from NYC]

Same thing in B'more...

So sad the only way out of a cycle of poverty is via education. As a wise man once said a brain is a terrible thing to waste.

The children in this country would be better off if there was no such thing as a teachers union. Pay teachers in accordance with how their student do in school. Fire the bad ones. Get parents involved.

[jimjamuser]

Isn't Climate Change THE MOST IMPORTANT? At least I could swear you said that in other threads...
Thank you for remembering that!!!!!!! Global Warming IS the world's BIGGEST problem. It is a PHYSICAL problem. Fairness is a human quality and may be the most important of those human qualities. Remember the Golden Rule......do unto others as you would have them do unto you - that strikes me as basic FAIRNESS.

[jimjamuser]

No, the government is forcing them to switch to EVs by banning ICEs.
I don't believe that the US government is FORCING a potential buyer to open up their wallet when they CHOOSE to buy a E-vehicle. Personally, I would like to see US car and truck buyers purchasing EVs for 30% of new cars bought in 2027. I would also like to see The Villages come up with a program to "phase out" all gasoline golf carts by 2030.
.......If I win a state lottery I will, personally, buy back all Infernal Combustion Engine golf cars here and replace them with new E-golf carts. So, help me Tesla (I mean God lady)

[jimjamuser]

E-vehicles have great potential for profit because they use fewer parts. Also, they have some other advantages over piston internal Combustion engine vehicles. The US big 3 are trying to switch to EVs as fast as they can.
Actually, what would be really nice is if we had a big 10 of E-vehicle manufacturers in the US. When IC engine automobiles began around 1900 there were probably 20 manufacturers. Today, 10 E-vehicle makers would scare the Big 3 into lowering their prices. We would have real AMERICAN competition, not the quasi-monopoly we have in vehicles today.

[jimjamuser]

Should this apply to all employees or just auto workers?

Thought experiment: Smart kid goes to college, then medical or dental school. Defers 8+ years of income while training. Comes out of school half a million dollars in debt. Then takes on another half million in debt to start a practice. Now needs to hire a high school graduate as assistant or receptionist. Should that assistant get a cut of the profits? If so, why? Did they invest 8 years of their life and a million dollars of capital?
If I were that Doctor in the thought experiment, I WOULD DEFINITELY give that receptionist WAGES PLUS a small % of profit sharing. That way they would be less likely to try to steal money. They would stay longer in the position. And they would be more loyal.
.........People work harder and are happier when get rewarded based on their own effort.

[jimjamuser]

Better than the Bears....
The point is that Packers profits go back to the city in terms of things like parks and reduced taxes. The Bears just make one owner rich.

[Gpsma]

Thank you for remembering that!!!!!!! Global Warming IS the world's BIGGEST problem. It is a PHYSICAL problem. Fairness is a human quality and may be the most important of those human qualities. Remember the Golden Rule......do unto others as you would have them do unto you - that strikes me as basic FAIRNESS.

Cant deal with global warming….im still working on the new ice age i was told about in the 1970s….also the acid rain from the 1980s..amd the ozone layer depletion from the 1990s.

Please hold up all the sky is falling stuff until i deal with all these othere disasters

[JMintzer]

I don't believe that the US government is FORCING a potential buyer to open up their wallet when they CHOOSE to buy a E-vehicle. Personally, I would like to see US car and truck buyers purchasing EVs for 30% of new cars bought in 2027. I would also like to see The Villages come up with a program to "phase out" all gasoline golf carts by 2030.
.......If I win a state lottery I will, personally, buy back all Infernal Combustion Engine golf cars here and replace them with new E-golf carts. So, help me Tesla (I mean God lady)

Except STATE governments ARE enacting such regulations...

"California is requiring that all NEW cars sold in 2035 and beyond are zero-emission vehicles which includes battery electric vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles and fuel cell electric vehicles."

[JMintzer]

Actually, what would be really nice is if we had a big 10 of E-vehicle manufacturers in the US. When IC engine automobiles began around 1900 there were probably 20 manufacturers. Today, 10 E-vehicle makers would scare the Big 3 into lowering their prices. We would have real AMERICAN competition, not the quasi-monopoly we have in vehicles today.

There are 21 EV manufacturers in the US...

Here are the top 10: Top 10 Electric Vehicle Manufacturers in USA (https://www.eletimes.com/top-10-electric-vehicle-manufacturers-in-usa)

But why let facts get in the way?

[JMintzer]

The point is that Packers profits go back to the city in terms of things like parks and reduced taxes. The Bears just make one owner rich.

Wrong again...

"Who receives profits from Green Bay Packers?

Green Bay Packers is formed in the year 1923, August, it is held by the public & it is a non-profit organization. Its headquarters is in Lambeau field. Most of the packer's profit goes to its capital reserve fund."

[shaw8700@outlook.com]

And they are losing millions on EV’s!

[Lyarham]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

Unions are great, spent 37 years in a union myself. 17.00 an hour for auto workers is not enough, while ceos are making millions

[CoachKandSportsguy]

UPS union settled…auto makers will hve to settle too.

Lol…stupid unions…they will get their raises while management will use AI and robotics to replace all those mindless non-educated union dolts.

Only people that will benefit are the overpaid union officials.

Not sure I agree with judgmental comments, but the process and outcome will be interesting to watch.

Here are the biggest price drops by model from the beginning of the year.

[roscoguy]

No, the government is forcing them to switch to EVs by banning ICEs.

What evil government ban are you talking about?

[Pugchief]

Thank you for remembering that!!!!!!! Global Warming IS the world's BIGGEST problem. It is a PHYSICAL problem. Fairness is a human quality and may be the most important of those human qualities. Remember the Golden Rule......do unto others as you would have them do unto you - that strikes me as basic FAIRNESS.

The point is that Packers profits go back to the city in terms of things like parks and reduced taxes. The Bears just make one owner rich.

Some folks just don't get sarcasm....

[Pugchief]

What evil government ban are you talking about?

See post #133

[Jazzman]

Unions are great, spent 37 years in a union myself. 17.00 an hour for auto workers is not enough, while ceos are making millions

The hourly wage is dependent on seniority. Your wage after 37 years was not 17 an hour, and that did not include the cost of your benefit package.
Biden has given the auto industry 12 billion to convert to EV production, that’s a lot of cash. The UAW wants some of that money plain and simple. The more money the more dues. A portion of the money the government gives to the auto makers, the union wants and then a portion of that goes back to a political party, 99% of the time the Democrat party in the form of contributions from the union.

[Caymus]

Not sure I agree with judgmental comments, but the process and outcome will be interesting to watch.

Here are the biggest price drops by model from the beginning of the year.

Do you have a chart for 2020 to 2022?

[TJSanson]

Just a matter of time before AI replaces management. AI works for much less than a fortune 500 CEO at 300x the average worker.
Bravo

[Robbb]

The real behind the scene drama here is not the UAW vs the big 3, it's the UAW leader vs the UPS labor leader. The new UPS contract gave their workers a 40% increase. To stay relevant to the labor movement the UAW leader has to get that or more or he will be viewed as weak and ineffective.

[bruce213]

Thier demands are ridiculous. The union wants a 46% raise and a 32hr work week at 40hr pay. So that's a 55% hourly wage increase and 20% less productivity. CRAZY.

[Blackbird45]

First, I don’t understand how the topic that was concentrated on the UAW strike evolved into EVs and climate change. CEOs represent business and let’s be honest their ideal goal is to create a produced without people entirely. No work force, no expense, no expense, more profits. The problem with this scenario, is one company gets rid of their work force it will be followed by another, until one day they wake up and realized everyone is unemployed and there are no shoppers for their produces.

Look there has been many posting that the unions are demanding too much and don’t deserve it and because of their demands their jobs will be shipped offshore. Let make it perfectly clear if the union members agreed to take a 40% cut in their salaries and a company believes they can save a buck they will still move offshore or innovate them out of a job. Business operates on profits people are just an annoyance.
The people these companies should really be interested in is the stockholders and if I had stock in one of these companies, I would demand a 40% cut in CEOs salaries and make them get rid of these golden parachutes.

[Johngramuglia]

It is interesting to me that some on here seems to think uneducated equate to lack of intelligence. Some of the smartest people ive ever known were formally uneducated. Also, those that do the "work" in this country should be paid fairly. I am not privy to the details of this negotiation but I do believe blue collar workers are the back bone of this country

[Marine1974]

Mindless Union dolts ? Can you explain your disdain for fellow Americans ? 🇺🇸

[Caymus]

First, I don’t understand how the topic that was concentrated on the UAW strike evolved into EVs and climate change. CEOs represent business and let’s be honest their ideal goal is to create a produced without people entirely. No work force, no expense, no expense, more profits. The problem with this scenario, is one company gets rid of their work force it will be followed by another, until one day they wake up and realized everyone is unemployed and there are no shoppers for their produces.

Look there has been many posting that the unions are demanding too much and don’t deserve it and because of their demands their jobs will be shipped offshore. Let make it perfectly clear if the union members agreed to take a 40% cut in their salaries and a company believes they can save a buck they will still move offshore or innovate them out of a job. Business operates on profits people are just an annoyance.
The people these companies should really be interested in is the stockholders and if I had stock in one of these companies, I would demand a 40% cut in CEOs salaries and make them get rid of these golden parachutes.

Nobody would buy stock in these companies as long-term investments. May have some value as short-term speculative trades. Ford stock peaked in 1997 and (old) GM went to zero in 2009. These new contracts will make them even less competitive with the rest of the world. Even now the Chicoms can make EV's 40% cheaper. The legacy US auto companies will need large tariffs and government subsidies in order to survive.

[jimjamuser]

Cant deal with global warming….im still working on the new ice age i was told about in the 1970s….also the acid rain from the 1980s..amd the ozone layer depletion from the 1990s.

Please hold up all the sky is falling stuff until i deal with all these othere disasters
OK, I would humbly suggest that people look at a graph of world population (hint- it starts rising sharply after about 1950). (Then even sharper in the last 10 years). Next, compare that graph to one of the CO2 increases in both the upper atmosphere and in the world's oceans.
........Here is MY logic........The LARGER population means more demand for food and wood - so forests get cut down for lumber and also to plant crops ------like the obvious destruction of the Amazon rainforest. When the forests of the WORLD are decimated (by population growth) then the CO2 produced by gasoline engines in cars, trucks, and golf cars can NOT be absorbed by the earth's plants. So, it ends up in the upper atmosphere where it reflects HEAT. Heat around the planet does things like break records for the Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf surrounding Florida. That gave us Hurricane Irma which was one of the worst to ever hit the US. EXCESS CO2 also ends up in the oceans where it is KILLING coral reefs.
.......In the US only 8 % of new cars purchased are Electric. EVs use fewer PARTS than comparable IC engines so they have the potential to cost less AND fewer workers would be needed on the Big 3's assembly lines. This may explain the reluctance of the Big 3 to move RAPIDLY toward EVs. Europe produces more new EVs than the US. So, the US is likely to EVENTUALLY catch up. The UAW strike must be partly driven by the likelihood of fewer workers needed in the future.

[JMintzer]

What evil government ban are you talking about?

If you bothered to read the thread, you'd know...

[JMintzer]

OK, I would humbly suggest that people look at a graph of world population (hint- it starts rising sharply after about 1950). (Then even sharper in the last 10 years). Next, compare that graph to one of the CO2 increases in both the upper atmosphere and in the world's oceans.
........Here is MY logic........The LARGER population means more demand for food and wood - so forests get cut down for lumber and also to plant crops ------like the obvious destruction of the Amazon rainforest. When the forests of the WORLD are decimated (by population growth) then the CO2 produced by gasoline engines in cars, trucks, and golf cars can NOT be absorbed by the earth's plants. So, it ends up in the upper atmosphere where it reflects HEAT. Heat around the planet does things like break records for the Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf surrounding Florida. That gave us Hurricane Irma which was one of the worst to ever hit the US. EXCESS CO2 also ends up in the oceans where it is KILLING coral reefs.

Excess CO2 - Check!
ICEs - Check! (at least you didn't use the term "Infernal Combustion Engine"...
Population Growth - Check!
Destruction of the Rainforest - Check!
Record Breaking temps in the Atlantic/Gulf - Check!
KILLING Coral reefs - Check!

And you completely ignore the NATURAL causes like the recent underwater volcano eruption, which spewed MASSIVE amounts of water vapor into the atmosphere. WATER VAPOR which has a MUCH GREATER effect in reflecting HEAT and warming the atmosphere...

And yet, you do nothing the help fix the problem...

[jimjamuser]

And they are losing millions on EV’s!
Because EVs use fewer parts ........eventually they will sell for less than conventional IC engine vehicles. As I said in a previous post, the cost per unit of ANY PRODUCT that is manufactured depends on how many are made ( the run size). As EVs become more popular, they will be sold in greater numbers and then the price will come down.
......The best way to think of EVs is to compare them to early (about 1900) infernal combustion engine vehicles, which by now have 120 years of product improvement. Imagine how improved EVs could be with 120 years of product improvement. And Electric vehicles have great potential to solve the world's greatest problem, which is the HEAT reflected from the upper atmosphere (aka Global Warming). Without fairly rapid conversion to EVs, Climate Scientists predict increasing planet HEAT leading to crop failures and lots of CHAOS. We owe a better world to the next generations following us!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

Not sure I agree with judgmental comments, but the process and outcome will be interesting to watch.

Here are the biggest price drops by model from the beginning of the year.
I would say that this chart PROVES what I have been saying, that EVs use fewer parts and will go down in price. Also, this shows the VALUE of a forum where MANY people contribute (even the naysayers). Group opinion is always better than individual opinion (even mine) (that's a joke).

[jimjamuser]

Some folks just don't get sarcasm....
That's funny because I reflected sarcasm WITH sarcasm. And MY sarcasm went undetected.

[Topspinmo]

Thier demands are ridiculous. The union wants a 46% raise and a 32hr work week at 40hr pay. So that's a 55% hourly wage increase and 20% less productivity. CRAZY.

They might as well go for 100% pay increase and 10 hours work 40 hours pay. If going to dream big, then dream really big. Don’t forget to add free medical for life them and all future offspring.

Funny how UAW head union bosses pay never mentioned.

[Topspinmo]

I would say that this chart PROVES what I have been saying, that EVs use fewer parts and will go down in price. Also, this shows the VALUE of a forum where MANY people contribute (even the naysayers). Group opinion is always better than individual opinion (even mine) (that's a joke).

Because they are way over priced to begin with.

[Topspinmo]

So sad the only way out of a cycle of poverty is via education. As a wise man once said a brain is a terrible thing to waste.

The children in this country would be better off if there was no such thing as a teachers union. Pay teachers in accordance with how their student do in school. Fire the bad ones. Get parents involved.


Better watch out what say about certain subjects. I took some time off for year :shocked:

[Topspinmo]

Why stop with the big 3, let fire everybody. Everybody can sit home you can watch the economy tank. Then not only can you complain about the unions, you can complain about the government, why you can't put food on the table, maybe you can watch Wheel of Fortune, that of course there are any union workers to air the show. What a great world

Funny how don’t affect Honda, BMW, Toyota and more foreign makes made in USA isn’t. Sooner than later enough will come to head. You can demand yourself right out of job.

[Caymus]

I would say that this chart PROVES what I have been saying, that EVs use fewer parts and will go down in price. Also, this shows the VALUE of a forum where MANY people contribute (even the naysayers). Group opinion is always better than individual opinion (even mine) (that's a joke).

An easy way to reduce the selling price is to eliminate the state and federal tax credits.

[JMintzer]

Because they are way over priced to begin with.

And they still lost money on every one of them...

[jimjamuser]

Thier demands are ridiculous. The union wants a 46% raise and a 32hr work week at 40hr pay. So that's a 55% hourly wage increase and 20% less productivity. CRAZY.
These days, productivity in a factory environment depends more on how effectively robotics and A. I. are utilized. Productivity depends less on how many hours the workers are there.

[JMintzer]

An easy way to reduce the selling price is to eliminate the state and federal tax credits.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!

[jimjamuser]

First, I don’t understand how the topic that was concentrated on the UAW strike evolved into EVs and climate change. CEOs represent business and let’s be honest their ideal goal is to create a produced without people entirely. No work force, no expense, no expense, more profits. The problem with this scenario, is one company gets rid of their work force it will be followed by another, until one day they wake up and realized everyone is unemployed and there are no shoppers for their produces.

Look there has been many posting that the unions are demanding too much and don’t deserve it and because of their demands their jobs will be shipped offshore. Let make it perfectly clear if the union members agreed to take a 40% cut in their salaries and a company believes they can save a buck they will still move offshore or innovate them out of a job. Business operates on profits people are just an annoyance.
The people these companies should really be interested in is the stockholders and if I had stock in one of these companies, I would demand a 40% cut in CEOs salaries and make them get rid of these golden parachutes.
There is an interesting historical footnote about that last sentence where the CEO salaries are TOO HIGH. Around the mid-70s when Japan and Toyota were just entering the US market, I read where Japanese CEOs thought it would be obnoxiously GREEDY if THEY made more than 10 times the salary of their average factory worker. Compare that to during that same time period GE CEO Jack Welsh made about 300 MILLION per year.
.......That Japanese CEO's humble thinking (back then) goes a long way to explaining why Toyota and the other Japanese automobile brands have done so well in the US. I don't know and would be curious to know about TODAY does the Toyota CEO make only 10 times their factory workers?

[jimjamuser]

Mindless Union dolts ? Can you explain your disdain for fellow Americans ? 🇺🇸
I could TRY and explain that (at least, my version). The upper 15% in the US have received FAVORABLE tax treatment overall starting in about 1990. Then you have the "birds of a feather" concept where they stick together and associate ONLY with like-minded millionaires. They are mostly males and feel threatened around a smart woman who makes a large salary. people say, "A woman must be 5 times as competent as a male to succeed in management".
........The IRS laws and tax tables in place since about 1990 give benefit to the upper income class. This has the effect of moving the WEALTH from the middle class upward to the upper classes - Warren Buffet famously said. " It is not fair that I pay less taxes than my own secretary". In real income (taking inflation into account), the UAW workers have NOT gotten a pay increase since about 1975. The same for MOST blue-collar workers in the US. They have gotten some increase after COVID due to fewer available skilled blue-collar workers. White-collar workers in most large corporations HAVE gotten pay increases since 1975.
..........That is MY opinion as to WHY someone would think of blue-collar workers as "mindless dolts". The rich (partly due to tax advantages) (and passing wealth down untaxed from generation to generation) feel superior to and look DOWN upon blue-collar workers. They tend to forget that after WW2 the US accumulated great WEALTH on the backs of factory workers (from about 1950 to 1975).

[Blackbird45]

Nobody would buy stock in these companies as long-term investments. May have some value as short-term speculative trades. Ford stock peaked in 1997 and (old) GM went to zero in 2009. These new contracts will make them even less competitive with the rest of the world. Even now the Chicoms can make EV's 40% cheaper. The legacy US auto companies will need large tariffs and government subsidies in order to survive.

Are you telling me that the compensation the CEOs are justified?
One of the biggest arguments the union members are putting forward was when the companies were in trouble the union step in, and their members took a hit and were never made whole. At the same time the CEOs incomes went off the charts. If you reduce the CEOs packages it would remove one of the unions grips.

Let's quickly look at the difference of a laborer and a CEO. A laborer screws up they are kicked out of a job. A CEO screws up and they are escorted off the floor with a muti-million-dollar parachute.

[Blackbird45]

Let's not forget in 2007 it was people like CEOs that almost toppled this country betting on the housing market.
Many union's pension funds and private 401K were destroyed.
If I remember correctly after the American taxpayers bailed these clowns out only one person went to jail and most of them were rewarded with raises.
Do we not see something wrong with this picture?

[Caymus]

Are you telling me that the compensation the CEOs are justified?
One of the biggest arguments the union members are putting forward was when the companies were in trouble the union step in, and their members took a hit and were never made whole. At the same time the CEOs incomes went off the charts. If you reduce the CEOs packages it would remove one of the unions grips.

Let's quickly look at the difference of a laborer and a CEO. A laborer screws up they are kicked out of a job. A CEO screws up and they are escorted off the floor with a muti-million-dollar parachute.


When did I write that? Only a small % of CEO's are worth their compensation. Real visionaries like Elon Musk, Jensen Huang of Nvidia and Howard Schultz of Starbucks during the growth years.

[jimjamuser]

Are you telling me that the compensation the CEOs are justified?
One of the biggest arguments the union members are putting forward was when the companies were in trouble the union step in, and their members took a hit and were never made whole. At the same time the CEOs incomes went off the charts. If you reduce the CEOs packages it would remove one of the unions grips.

Let's quickly look at the difference of a laborer and a CEO. A laborer screws up they are kicked out of a job. A CEO screws up and they are escorted off the floor with a muti-million-dollar parachute.
I wonder what we would see if we compared US automobile CEOs with those from Germany, France, England, South Korea, and Italy.

[Blackbird45]

When did I write that? Only a small % of CEO's are worth their compensation. Real visionaries like Elon Musk, Jensen Huang of Nvidia and Howard Schultz of Starbucks during the growth years.

My posting had to do with removing one of the sticking points that the UAW is complaining about, and you posted a response ignoring my main point and went onto investments.

To make my position clear is when a company does well everyone should be compensated equally to the pay grade and when a company is in decline everyone should share in the burden.

What I believe if you want to get rid of unions then companies should enter into an equitable profit-sharing agreement. And this coming from someone who represented a union local and negotiated a number of contracts.

[jimjamuser]

Let's not forget in 2007 it was people like CEOs that almost toppled this country betting on the housing market.
Many union's pension funds and private 401K were destroyed.
If I remember correctly after the American taxpayers bailed these clowns out only one person went to jail and most of them were rewarded with raises.
Do we not see something wrong with this picture?
As I remember it.....Alan Greenspan stripped away key safeguards and championed risky loans. The Glass-Steagall Act was repealed and banks were said, "to be too big to fail".

[jimjamuser]

When did I write that? Only a small % of CEO's are worth their compensation. Real visionaries like Elon Musk, Jensen Huang of Nvidia and Howard Schultz of Starbucks during the growth years.
My favorite would be Warren Buffet.

[jimjamuser]

My posting had to do with removing one of the sticking points that the UAW is complaining about, and you posted a response ignoring my main point and went onto investments.

To make my position clear is when a company does well everyone should be compensated equally to the pay grade and when a company is in decline everyone should share in the burden.

What I believe if you want to get rid of unions then companies should enter into an equitable profit-sharing agreement. And this coming from someone who represented a union local and negotiated a number of contracts.
For all practical purposes, unions today in the US are virtually non-existent. I believe that companies that have profit-sharing and look after their employees are very successful on average.

[Pugchief]

To make my position clear is when a company does well everyone should be compensated equally to the pay grade and when a company is in decline everyone should share in the burden.



LOL, the union would never agree to a pay cut if profits were down. Neither would a receptionist in a small business for that matter. Ask me how I know....

[Blackbird45]

LOL, the union would never agree to a pay cut if profits were down. Neither would a receptionist in a small business for that matter. Ask me how I know....

What I said was if you wanted to get rid of union companies should enter into a profit-sharing agreement. There are companies that were floundering and went into this type of agreement, and they turned the decline around. Now that was my main point, but the UAW did take a reduction in their benefits. With new hires were not being covered with the original pension. So even if you do not believe unions would accept a reduction, they have.

[JMintzer]

For all practical purposes, unions today in the US are virtually non-existent. I believe that companies that have profit-sharing and look after their employees are very successful on average.

Tell that to the over 70% of teachers who are unionized...

"What percent of teachers are in a union?

Largest Teachers' Unions Research Summary

The largest teachers' union in the U.S. is the National Education Association, with 3 million members. There are 3.2 million full-time teachers and 130,930 K-12 schools across the U.S. At least 70% of U.S. teachers belong to a teachers' union.Apr 23, 2023"

And union membership is actually growing...

"The number of wage and salary workers belonging to unions, at 14.3 million in 2022, increased by 273,000, or 1.9 percent, from 2021."

But why let facts get in the way?

[roscoguy]

See post #133

Oh, so states are enacting laws to protect their own environment and air quality, etc? Hardly what most people would call a 'government ban'. I thought that states' rights was a pretty big deal around here. Maybe not when it comes down to actually governing?

[roscoguy]

If you bothered to read the thread, you'd know...

Oh, I bothered, thank you. This implied government ban simply doesn't exist. Regulations in a half dozen or so states designed to phase out ICE vehicles over the course of a decade or more just isn't a government ban. Think up a new scary term.

[Caymus]

Oh, I bothered, thank you. This implied government ban simply doesn't exist. Regulations in a half dozen or so states designed to phase out ICE vehicles over the course of a decade or more just isn't a government ban. Think up a new scary term.

Phase out = eventual ban. Why would I ever trust the side that is pushing or defending it?

[Pugchief]

Phase out = eventual ban. Why would I ever trust the side that is pushing or defending it?

Exactly. California is the most populous state in the country for some unimaginable reason (NM, nice weather) so them "phasing out" ICE cars is just the start of it.

[Caymus]

Exactly. California is the most populous state in the country for some unimaginable reason (NM, nice weather) so them "phasing out" ICE cars is just the start of it.

And it forces costs to rise. Just like they did when the over regulated eggs and pork products.

[JMintzer]

Oh, so states are enacting laws to protect their own environment and air quality, etc? Hardly what most people would call a 'government ban'. I thought that states' rights was a pretty big deal around here. Maybe not when it comes down to actually governing?

State governments are not "Governments"? On what planet?

A state government ban is most certainly a "government ban"...

[JMintzer]

Oh, I bothered, thank you. This implied government ban simply doesn't exist. Regulations in a half dozen or so states designed to phase out ICE vehicles over the course of a decade or more just isn't a government ban. Think up a new scary term.

See my previous post... Sorry, but you're wrong...

Oh, and the phase in starts in 2026, with a 35% requirement...

[JMintzer]

Exactly. California is the most populous state in the country for some unimaginable reason (NM, nice weather) so them "phasing out" ICE cars is just the start of it.

And once CA does it, many states follow, in lock step...

[roscoguy]

Phase out = eventual ban. Why would I ever trust the side that is pushing or defending it?

Not really equal. At least as far as I've seen, California is only phasing out sales of NEW ICE cars by 2035 and several other states may follow their lead. This could change or even effectively become a ban over time, but the 'government ban' implied in the post I was responding to just isn't a thing.
I don't exactly understand your question about trust, so I really can't answer that. :shrug:

[roscoguy]

Exactly. California is the most populous state in the country for some unimaginable reason (NM, nice weather) so them "phasing out" ICE cars is just the start of it.

Could be and very possibly should be.

[roscoguy]

State governments are not "Governments"? On what planet?

A state government ban is most certainly a "government ban"...

Do you really think of CA when someone talks about a "government" ban with no mention of which government? I'm not going to argue semantics; the post I replied to sure seemed to imply something bigger than the California regulations.

[JMintzer]

Not really equal. At least as far as I've seen, California is only phasing out sales of NEW ICE cars by 2035 and several other states may follow their lead. This could change or even effectively become a ban over time, but the 'government ban' implied in the post I was responding to just isn't a thing.
I don't exactly understand your question about trust, so I really can't answer that. :shrug:

A "ban" on new car sales isn't a ban? Interesting take you have there... (Changing the wording to "phasing out" doesn't change what they are doing)

Oh, and it's also a BAN on the sale or transfer of USED ICE vehicles...

But, I guess you're right... The ban really isn't a ban... :1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

Do you really think of CA when someone talks about a "government" ban with no mention of which government? I'm not going to argue semantics; the post I replied to sure seemed to imply something bigger than the California regulations.

All you're doing is "arguing semantics"...

[roscoguy]

See my previous post... Sorry, but you're wrong...

Oh, and the phase in starts in 2026, with a 35% requirement...

And once CA does it, many states follow, in lock step...

Wrong about what??? :shrug: Now I am confused: is it a phase in or a phase out? :confused: Either way, it still falls short of a literal "ban".

Other states could follow CA's lead, but "lock step"??? Could just be that other state leaders (OK, governments :icon_wink:) see the reasons behind the regulations and decide for themselves that it makes sense.