Ford lost $32,000 per ev in 2nd quarter

[Rainger99]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

[Robbb]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

The dirty secret that no one is talking about is not how much money they lose per EV. Its how few EV's are being sold!. This article is somewhat misleading as it says they sold 30,000 EV's in Q2, that includes hybrids. True EV sales are app 5,000 per the quarter. Outside of the Ford Lightning pickup truck (at $110,000) they are selling almost No EV's.

[justjim]

Ford had an Edsel too. Yeah, always “pulling” for American car company. I pass on their stock too.

[phylt]

As tough as GM, Ford, Stellantis is - and DEFINITELY will be in the near future, VW is tilting toward short term hurt. Their sales in China are WAY down and they have little in the way of EVs. Nissan is worse. Matter of fact even all Japanese makers are in very tough shape financially. Toyota was WAY late to the EV, betting on ICE and Hybrids. Korean car mfrs look good and ahead with EVs.

As said USA cos LOSE mega$$$ on each EV they manage to sell. Tough road ahead for each.

Tesla... well they have the inside track and lightyears ahead of competition. Now Chinese EV mfrs, watch out - they ARE coming. Europe will prob put serious taxes on Chinese imported EVs. And at some point the USA will too.

[Robbb]

As tough as GM, Ford, Stellantis is - and DEFINITELY will be in the near future, VW is tilting toward short term hurt. Their sales in China are WAY down and they have little in the way of EVs. Nissan is worse. Matter of fact even all Japanese makers are in very tough shape financially. Toyota was WAY late to the EV, betting on ICE and Hybrids. Korean car mfrs look good and ahead with EVs.

As said USA cos LOSE mega$$$ on each EV they manage to sell. Tough road ahead for each.

Tesla... well they have the inside track and lightyears ahead of competition. Now Chinese EV mfrs, watch out - they ARE coming. Europe will prob put serious taxes on Chinese imported EVs. And at some point the USA will too.

Yea but this is all based on the assumption that people want EV's.

[gatorbill1]

EV vehicles are the future of the automotive industry. If we don't make them, they will come from China or somewhere else.

[Stu from NYC]

EV vehicles are the future of the automotive industry. If we don't make them, they will come from China or somewhere else.

Not if companies cannot make money making and selling them.

BTW do you folks realize that there is still a 25% tariff on all stuff coming here from China?

[mtdjed]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

While definitely not an EV fan, I believe you must use care in using data like the above. It likely does not mean that each new EV car costs Ford $32,000 more that the sell price. I would strongly suspect that number reflects the incremental cost of each new EV plus a share of the huge developmental cost incurred based upon dividing development costs by quantity sold.

You have to expect that companies don't blindly sell at a price below incremental cost. They may have a plan the shows recovery of development costs within a projected sales volume. Sales lagging that projection could be a major problem.

My only caution is that use the term loss of $32,000 may have a different meaning.

[Tvflguy]

In the future yes....but our government is trying to push them now and we aren't ready. The battery technology isn't ready and the infrastructure isn't ready. Maybe in 5 to 10 years.

Tesla has the tech and charging infrastructure. Big 3 and many euro and Japan auto companies do not. And all of them will slowly die. Disruptive tech which they all were too slow to adopt.

Tesla, China, and prob Korean firms will thrive.

[Rainger99]

While definitely not an EV fan, I believe you must use care in using data like the above. It likely does not mean that each new EV car costs Ford $32,000 more that the sell price. I would strongly suspect that number reflects the incremental cost of each new EV plus a share of the huge developmental cost incurred based upon dividing development costs by quantity sold.

You have to expect that companies don't blindly sell at a price below incremental cost. They may have a plan the shows recovery of development costs within a projected sales volume. Sales lagging that projection could be a major problem.

My only caution is that use the term loss of $32,000 may have a different meaning.

I don’t understand the accounting details but I would assume that the EV is a separate division and that the costs are x and the income is y. The costs clearly exceed the income so you divide the losses by the number of vehicles sold to determine the loss per vehicle.

But perhaps we have some people who worked in the automotive industry that can explain how these losses are calculated.

Even NPR says that Ford is losing money on EVs.

Ford's CEO is staking its future on electric cars : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2023/08/11/1193083777/ford-electric-vehicles-f150-lightning-jim-farley)

[Vermilion Villager]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)
As usual….someone only reads the headline and not the article. :oops:

[JGVillages]

In the future yes....but our government is trying to push them now and we aren't ready. The battery technology isn't ready and the infrastructure isn't ready. Maybe in 5 to 10 years.

The millions of apartment residents that park outside are supposed to charge their EV’s where? Will these complexes be required to have a charging station for each apartment? I stop at Charging Station, let’s say WAWA future, and I get in line behind 2 cars waiting to quick charge at 20-30 minutes each. Would you have purchased a home in The Villages if the golf courses, pickleball and tennis courts, recreation centers, etc., etc., were not here and this promised infrastructure would be coming in the future? Same way I feel about purchasing an electric vehicle without the promised infrastructure in place. The difference is an intelligently planned Villages Community, and an unintelligent and inefficient Government process.

[dhdallas]

The dirty secret that no one is talking about is not how much money they lose per EV. Its how few EV's are being sold!. This article is somewhat misleading as it says they sold 30,000 EV's in Q2, that includes hybrids. True EV sales are app 5,000 per the quarter. Outside of the Ford Lightning pickup truck (at $110,000) they are selling almost No EV's.

I just don't get all of you EV haters out there. No one is forcing you to get one and by the time combustion engines are finally prohibited we will all be long dead.

[Topspinmo]

EV vehicles are the future of the automotive industry. If we don't make them, they will come from China or somewhere else.

About all parts come from China and assembled elsewhere, they’re no American made vehicles. Little big 3 can’t compete with 5.25 or less labor costs. Only some are assembled in America and most of them are foreign which don’t have to deal with UAW. The once big 3 (really only 2 now anyway) will figure it out sometime in future. Just like the steel and textile industries did.

[Topspinmo]

I just don't get all of you EV haters out there. No one is forcing you to get one and by the time combustion engines are finally prohibited we will all be long dead.


You’re right most of use will dead long before EV’s can go 600 miles and be charged by next day to continue on trip. IMO hybrid makes more sense at least for next 20 years for masses. And no most can’t afford Tesla’s which may be able to go 200 miles in sub freezing weather if lucky? Then, there the salt belt which even gasoline vehicles can verily make it 5 years before the frames, body panels, and wiring decay. what do you think salt belt will do to EV?

[merrymini]

I have owned a tesla, fantastic car. Most of the time charged it at home. It only becomes a problem on a long range trip. So far, when I used it that way, it wasn’t too bad but what happens when you have too many of them and not enough infrastructure for recharging? Until new battery technology comes around, a chargeable hybrid is the best transition vehicle. So why are people, particularly the administration, pushing a technology that would strip the earth of the minerals to provide these batteries? Why would anyone hold a meeting of car manufacturers of electric cars and not invite Elon Musk? I can only assume brainless zombies are making these decisions because they are so stupid.

[ithos]

I just don't get all of you EV haters out there. No one is forcing you to get one and by the time combustion engines are finally prohibited we will all be long dead.

We don't hate EV's. Just like we don't hate electric golf carts. (Except for the fact you get subsidies and avoid taxes for highway maintenance).For many EVs are a good fit for their transportation needs.

What we HATE is the dictatorial mandates set in place that will eventually eliminate ICE vehicles. This will have a catastrophic impact on the mobility we take for granted today.

This is because the electrical grid CAN NOT begin to handle the increased demand if most vehicles on the road are EVs. Plus renewables as an energy source for base load plants is a joke. Also the charging times will turn driving into a much more stressful experience because of the challenge of not running low on charge. And during winter, EVs performance drops dramatically.

Until they have solid state batteries and mini nukes to ensure a stable grid then forcing everyone to drive an EV will have catastrophic impact on our standard of living and way of life. Well on second thought, maybe that is the true objective.

[banjobob]

We are not haters of EV only the fact that they want to eliminate gas and diesel powered vehicles. The inconvenience of road trips in EV is your decision I want gas powered cars.

[Susan1717]

I will never own an EV in my life. I’m not at all convinced they help our environment as to what goes into their batteries. I agree with another comment, large condo and apartment complexes have huge parking lots that must accommodate over 300 cars. There is no way they would have the electrical grid system to be able to put in 300 charging stations let alone the huge enormous cost. Also, what about people that live in cities and do not have parking garages or spots at all? They park randomly on the street. Our winter home is in a big city and you just have to park your car on the street. an EV car would never work in those circumstances and that’s how thousands upon thousands live. Once there is any electrical overload, we would have problems. There are already many communities and towns across the country where they’re being told that electricity is becoming such a problem that they are given hours that they can only run the dishwasher and washing machines during the day. How in the world can EV cars added to this this work?

[Mac1996]

They lose money on every unit, but they make it up in volume😜

[mickey100]

You’re right most of use will dead long before EV’s can go 600 miles and be charged by next day to continue on trip. IMO hybrid makes more sense at least for next 20 years for masses. And no most can’t afford Tesla’s which may be able to go 200 miles in sub freezing weather if lucky? Then, there the salt belt which even gasoline vehicles can verily make it 5 years before the frames, body panels, and wiring decay. what do you think salt belt will do to EV?

Toyota has announced it will have a model with a cruising range of about 620 miles in 2026, and is working on one that would have a potential 930 mile range. And they are making changes in production which will lower manufacturing costs. But I agree, hybrids really make sense right now. Why wouldn't someone want a vehicle that gets 50 mpg around town and you don't have to plug it in to recharge?

[Wondering]

EV's are the future if you want to save the planet for future generations. All startups have initial problems and losses.

[Retiredsteve]

I just don't get all of you EV haters out there. No one is forcing you to get one and by the time combustion engines are finally prohibited we will all be long dead. They are conditioned to hate them by the media they watch. The same thing has happened with LED lights

[ithos]

They are conditioned to hate them by the media they watch. The same thing has happened with LED lights

It is so much easier to make condescending remarks than actually using logic and reason to validate your opinion, isn't it?

[Haggar]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

We're talking fixed costs and variable costs. The cost of developing the assembly lines, equipment and battery development are being amortized over anticipated production units rather than the actual units produced. Because Ford's sales of EV units were very low these fixed costs divided by units sold plus variable costs cause a cost per car way in excess of sales price. When and if the units sold increase the theory is they will produce a per car profit. The same math will apply to battery costs. As units sold go up the cost per battery will go down.

But Ev sales will not go up significantly without an increase in battery range.

[sloanst]

This is what happens when you allow a political administration, that knows nothing about business, to influence your decisions.

[Stu from NYC]

We don't hate EV's. Just like we don't hate electric golf carts. (Except for the fact you get subsidies and avoid taxes for highway maintenance).For many EVs are a good fit for their transportation needs.

What we HATE is the dictatorial mandates set in place that will eventually eliminate ICE vehicles. This will have a catastrophic impact on the mobility we take for granted today.

This is because the electrical grid CAN NOT begin to handle the increased demand if most vehicles on the road are EVs. Plus renewables as an energy source for base load plants is a joke. Also the charging times will turn driving into a much more stressful experience because of the challenge of not running low on charge. And during winter, EVs performance drops dramatically.

Until they have solid state batteries and mini nukes to ensure a stable grid then forcing everyone to drive an EV will have catastrophic impact on our standard of living and way of life. Well on second thought, maybe that is the true objective.

Very well said

[Keefelane66]

Toyota has announced it will have a model with a cruising range of about 620 miles in 2026, and is working on one that would have a potential 930 mile range. And they are making changes in production which will lower manufacturing costs. But I agree, hybrids really make sense right now. Why wouldn't someone want a vehicle that gets 50 mpg around town and you don't have to plug it in to recharge?
That's the intent of EV vehicles the average person commutes less than 40 miles daily. My current hybrid averages 60+ on highways at 70mph getting around 650 on a full tank. My travels New England to TV just under 20 gallons of fuel.

[OhioBuckeye]

You know I worked for Ford for 38 yrs. & I always wonder why they wouldn’t give their employees a nickle for a good suggestion but they’ll spend millions to retool for something that all they had to do is think about all the cons that will arrive, now they’re scratching their head thinking, Duh, I don’t need to tell them because I’m just a dumb employee & they let their experts figure it out, didn’t sound like they thought this out very good or they thought they didn’t have to listen to the pro’s that they made us listen to!

[Mpphred]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

The Cart before the Horse

[The Chipster]

Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

[The Chipster]

[QUOTE=The Chipster;2257925]Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

[srswans]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

The real story, as the article explains, is that Ford expected to lose $21k but have been losing $32,000 so Ford is adjusting production accordingly.

[mickey100]

[QUOTE=The Chipster;2257925]Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

Exactly!

[Tvflguy]

Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

Spot on. The Big 3 and others in Europe and Japan are on deaths door. By 2030, max, there will be drastic changes in auto firm. Most will be out of business or scratching for minimal profits. Only those fully invested in EV tech or closely there will survive. And when this new labor deal goes thru, the door is closer.

The UAW wants to make the most of it right now as they know they will be depleted in a few years. Auto Cos will move to Right to Work states or China etc.

We are not “Green” but have an elec golf cart. And will order a new Tesla very soon to replace our perfectly OK ICE car. We test drove a Model 3 recently and… OMG. I now dislike our current car’s exhaust in the garage and noise starting. It’s a new world and we WILL be joining up. Tesla tech and charging capability is light years ahead of any other in the USA

[JMintzer]

Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

Yes, your post IS hilarious!

Funny how the "early adopters" like to brag how "forward thinking" they are, but they fail to take into account that they are the few who are able to charge their EVs at home, in the comfort of their garage... They are able to pay $thousands more for an EV when most Americans are struggling to purchase ANY new car. Elitism at it's finest!

No one is saying that EVs won't be the vehicles of the future. They are saying that RIGHT NOW, we are not ready for what the government is not only suggesting, but forcing people to to... And they are saying that they won't be the ONLY vehicles of the future...

No problem with "investing in the game". But do it wisely. Make sure you have the infrastructure in place to accommodate all of the EVs they want us to but.

So far, I don't see that happening. Ignoring the problems that were posted (such as where apt and condo dwellers are supposed to charge their EVs, and the lack of available electricity to charge the increased number of EVs) is foolish. Some might even call it "hysterical...

[JMintzer]

Spot on. The Big 3 and others in Europe and Japan are on deaths door. By 2030, max, there will be drastic changes in auto firm. Most will be out of business or scratching for minimal profits. Only those fully invested in EV tech or closely there will survive. And when this new labor deal goes thru, the door is closer.

The UAW wants to make the most of it right now as they know they will be depleted in a few years. Auto Cos will move to Right to Work states or China etc.

We are not “Green” but have an elec golf cart. And will order a new Tesla very soon to replace our perfectly OK ICE car. We test drove a Model 3 recently and… OMG. I now dislike our current car’s exhaust in the garage and noise starting. It’s a new world and we WILL be joining up. Tesla tech and charging capability is light years ahead of any other in the USA

I was picked up by an Uber driver in a Tesla Model 3 the other day. I have to say, I was unimpressed... No better/worse than any other similar size vehicle I've ridden in...

But if you like yours... Great!

As to your "Death's Door" prediction... With the number of Lexuses, Acuras, Camarys, and Accords I see on the road, I doubt those predictions are accurate...

[Battlebasset]

I have an electric golf cart (lithium ion). Works perfect for what I need it for. Golf course and back. Square and back. Grocery store and back. Plug it into a 110 outlet when I get home, full charge by morning. Right tool for the right job.

My car is ICE, for the same reasons. Right tool for the right job. EV is not ready to replace my ICE for what I need my ICE to do - Go long distances, refuel quickly, multiple fueling stations every few miles, solid, proven 100 year+ technology that keeps improving.

Hybrid? Sure. Pure EV? Not ready for my lifestyle. I don't care what anyone drives. But the heavy hand of government should not be pushing this faster than it is ready for most people's motoring needs.

If you want to go first, knock yourself out. I'll watch and see how it plays out, and make my decision at the appropriate time. No downside for me to wait.

Remember, the early bird gets the worm. But the second mouse gets the cheese.

[Hizzonner1030]

Many say that no one wants an EV. Go to to a dealers lot and try to buy one or even test drive. They sell faster than they are being manufactured.

[Battlebasset]

Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

Assuming you are correct, and I disagree with a few of your points, you make an excellent case to wait and watch how this plays out as far as technology and who makes the best product.

If you were an early adopter of betamax, you were probably bummed when VHS won out. If you rushed to replace your vinyl collection with CD's, same thing when itunes and streaming came out. As well as if you invested in $1,000's in film cameras and your own development equipment. At the end Kodak couldn't give it away.

No reason to be the first person to buy such expensive technology that is still being developed. My newer ICE will easily run for another 10 years, I've got another one that is 22 years old, and still going strong. Unless the government decides to come and take them (gee, that wouldn't happen, would it?) I'm happy to watch and wait to see where this all lands.

[ThirdOfFive]

I just don't get all of you EV haters out there. No one is forcing you to get one and by the time combustion engines are finally prohibited we will all be long dead.
EV haters?

More like a healthy skepticism of anything smacking of social engineering.

[mtdjed]

I don’t understand the accounting details but I would assume that the EV is a separate division and that the costs are x and the income is y. The costs clearly exceed the income so you divide the losses by the number of vehicles sold to determine the loss per vehicle.

But perhaps we have some people who worked in the automotive industry that can explain how these losses are calculated.

Even NPR says that Ford is losing money on EVs.

Ford's CEO is staking its future on electric cars : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2023/08/11/1193083777/ford-electric-vehicles-f150-lightning-jim-farley)

It is quite simple.

Make your total cost at any point you want, but the maker has a plan for a quantity that will recover the development cost, incremental item cost and profit.

That may not work on government projects since profit is not their goal.

[Pugchief]

Why would anyone hold a meeting of car manufacturers of electric cars and not invite Elon Musk?

Because the powers that be don't like him because he refuses to acquiesce and bend the knee every time they come calling with another demand.

[kkingston57]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

Tesla lost a lot of money early on also. They will catch up. Still feel that car makers should have worked more fervently on hybrid cars. These cars get at least 25-30% higher mileage and do not have the range problems.

This would have been a compromise. Something politicians do not even know how to spell.

[Caymus]

I have owned a tesla, fantastic car. Most of the time charged it at home. It only becomes a problem on a long range trip. So far, when I used it that way, it wasn’t too bad but what happens when you have too many of them and not enough infrastructure for recharging? Until new battery technology comes around, a chargeable hybrid is the best transition vehicle. So why are people, particularly the administration, pushing a technology that would strip the earth of the minerals to provide these batteries? Why would anyone hold a meeting of car manufacturers of electric cars and not invite Elon Musk? I can only assume brainless zombies are making these decisions because they are so stupid.

Because Tesla is nonunion.

[Pugchief]

Because Tesla is nonunion.

Yes, that, too.

[Robbb]

Many say that no one wants an EV. Go to to a dealers lot and try to buy one or even test drive. They sell faster than they are being manufactured.

Which EV's are you talking about? They can't give the Chevy Bolts away. The Ford Lightning is on hold due to a design defect.

[Robbb]

Toyota has announced it will have a model with a cruising range of about 620 miles in 2026, and is working on one that would have a potential 930 mile range. And they are making changes in production which will lower manufacturing costs. But I agree, hybrids really make sense right now. Why wouldn't someone want a vehicle that gets 50 mpg around town and you don't have to plug it in to recharge?

Yea and nuclear fission is just 10 years away.

[Stu from NYC]

Because the powers that be don't like him because he refuses to acquiesce and bend the knee every time they come calling with another demand.

Thankfully he enabled us to have the means to get to the ISS years ago. Brilliant visionary who is not afraid to spend his own money

[Stu from NYC]

Yea and nuclear fission is just 10 years away.

Still have a feeling that EV's are not going to be the save all that some people think they will be.

[Pugchief]

Still have a feeling that EV's are not going to be the save all that some people think they will be.

Most definitely not. However, it will give more power and control to those that seek to consolidate it. And I say this as a Tesla owner.

When you look at the means of production, it is anything but green, and the logistics of people who don't own garages to charge them is untenable. And the grid can't handle it anyway.

[JMintzer]

Tesla lost a lot of money early on also. They will catch up. Still feel that car makers should have worked more fervently on hybrid cars. These cars get at least 25-30% higher mileage and do not have the range problems.

This would hpave been a compromise. Something politicians do not even know how to spell.

I just bought a new car last week. My 12.5 yo Hyundai Genesis' engine gave up the ghost. Blown head gasket.

I seriously looked at hybrids, but there's no way I'm driving a Prius and nothing else fit my needs/budget.

I wound up buying an Acura TXL with only 14K miles on it, that was coming out of the dealer's loaner inventory. Still under warranty. Perfect condition, not a mark on it, serviced by the dealer, and I saved almost $15K off of a new one. It serves my needs perfectly... For now...

[JMintzer]

Yea and nuclear fission is just 10 years away.

https://j.gifs.com/mLPLOa.gif

[Stu from NYC]

Most definitely not. However, it will give more power and control to those that seek to consolidate it. And I say this as a Tesla owner.

When you look at the means of production, it is anything but green, and the logistics of people who don't own garages to charge them is untenable. And the grid can't handle it anyway.

There you go confusing some people with the facts again.:clap2:

[Cheapbas]

While definitely not an EV fan, I believe you must use care in using data like the above. It likely does not mean that each new EV car costs Ford $32,000 more that the sell price. I would strongly suspect that number reflects the incremental cost of each new EV plus a share of the huge developmental cost incurred based upon dividing development costs by quantity sold.

You have to expect that companies don't blindly sell at a price below incremental cost. They may have a plan the shows recovery of development costs within a projected sales volume. Sales lagging that projection could be a major problem.

My only caution is that use the term loss of $32,000 may have a different meaning.

It does “ increased costs related to new product development and production-capacity expansion” and that makes perfect sense. They are expecting profitability a few years down the road.

[OhioBuckeye]

I know people don’t care if I worked for Ford for 38yrs. But your right EV’s are to expensive for most of us to buy. I’m thinking Ford sees the writing on the wall. EV’s are a short distance auto’s. I drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. & I yet have seen a charging station & if I would are the chargers all the same do you have to sit in line & wait for 2 other EV’s ahead you for 2,3 or 4 hrs. before it’s your turn, plus are you going to be patient enough to wait an 1 1/2 hrs. to charge yours & the biggest thing can you afford to pay $40,000 more for the same vehicle you have now. Most of these EV’s your paying for HP not realablity. People have to weigh the pros & cons before they invest in a very expensive EV.

[Eclas]

not to worry I'm sure we are all covering those losses thru our tax dollars.

[jamesrcorbett]

When you hear the word subsidy who do you think is paying for that financial aid? The US taxpayers. Our current administration is asking us to pay for something that is their dream and not that of the majority of people.
The real issue is that we have politicians and not business people. In business you develop a business plan that analyzes every aspect of the implementation issues and and works backwards from the end goal to have a successful implementation.
1) Electrical Infrastructure
2) Charging Stations across the country.
3) Sufficient battery range to drive trips.
4) No mandates of use by letting the market decide.
5) Material resources to build batteries w/o enhancing China.
Dreams without plans are just dreams!

[Cybersprings]

Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.

And what makes you so sure it will be EVs that everyone is driving in 50 years? The thing that makes EVs obsolete, even though they aren't even a viable thing today may be just around the corner. They may be laughing at you for thinking that will be the future when x, not even thought of commonly now, becomes the "real solution"

[Stu from NYC]

And what makes you so sure it will be EVs that everyone is driving in 50 years? The thing that makes EVs obsolete, even though they aren't even a viable thing today may be just around the corner. They may be laughing at you for thinking that will be the future when x, not even thought of commonly now, becomes the "real solution"

Could not agree with you more.

[Pugchief]

I drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. & I yet have seen a charging station
To be fair, the charging stations along any interstate highway are plentiful, but require exiting and driving a mile or so to arrive at.


& if I would are the chargers all the same do you have to sit in line & wait for 2 other EV’s ahead you for 2,3 or 4 hrs. before it’s your turn
I can't answer that bc I only and always charge my Tesla in my garage. We take the ICE car if we have to drive more than 50 miles.

plus are you going to be patient enough to wait an 1 1/2 hrs. to charge yours?
Can't speak for others, but I would not, and if that's the case, it's a huge problem.

[JMintzer]

To be fair, the charging stations along any interstate highway are plentiful, but require exiting and driving a mile or so to arrive at.


I can't answer that bc I only and always charge my Tesla in my garage. We take the ICE car if we have to drive more than 50 miles.


Can't speak for others, but I would not, and if that's the case, it's a huge problem.

You are a classic example of the "short distance driver" that is being discussed...

Nothing wrong with that. EVs can be a great alternative for someone with your needs.

But... It's also telling that when you need to take any sort of a trip, the EV stays home...

[Stu from NYC]

You are a classic example of the "short distance driver" that is being discussed...

Nothing wrong with that. EVs can be a great alternative for someone with your needs.

But... It's also telling that when you need to take and sort of a trip, the EV stays home...

Until an EV can go longer distances and charge as quickly as I can fuel up my car see no advantage to getting one. Especially at 3x the cost of my Camry.

[JP]

I think the best idea is a hybrid.

[jimjamuser]

The dirty secret that no one is talking about is not how much money they lose per EV. Its how few EV's are being sold!. This article is somewhat misleading as it says they sold 30,000 EV's in Q2, that includes hybrids. True EV sales are app 5,000 per the quarter. Outside of the Ford Lightning pickup truck (at $110,000) they are selling almost No EV's.
The 2 go hand-in-hand - units made and cost per unit. It is that way with any "RUN" of ANYTHING made on a factory line. EVs have better acceleration and braking due to the battery weight being placed lower than the center of gravity of an IC engine vehicle. EVs have fewer parts than IC engine vehicles and, therefore will be more reliable and easier to maintain. Also, no oil to change and NO TRIPS to the gas station for local travel.
........With so many advantages, even Americans will SOON make a big push for EVs. When that happens the price of EVs drop below corresponding IC engine vehicles BECAUSE many, many unit will be purchased. Also in 2024 many more charging stations will be built.
......And, I believe that in 2024 Renault will have a compact EV automobile selling for $29,000 dollars. That sounds like a "game changer" to me. And China is making a lot of RAPID progress in EVs. The US NEEDS EV technology to keep up with China. There is BIG sales potential in Australia, New Zealand, Africa, India, Russia, Europe, and everywhere.

[jimjamuser]

As tough as GM, Ford, Stellantis is - and DEFINITELY will be in the near future, VW is tilting toward short term hurt. Their sales in China are WAY down and they have little in the way of EVs. Nissan is worse. Matter of fact even all Japanese makers are in very tough shape financially. Toyota was WAY late to the EV, betting on ICE and Hybrids. Korean car mfrs look good and ahead with EVs.

As said USA cos LOSE mega$$$ on each EV they manage to sell. Tough road ahead for each.

Tesla... well they have the inside track and lightyears ahead of competition. Now Chinese EV mfrs, watch out - they ARE coming. Europe will prob put serious taxes on Chinese imported EVs. And at some point the USA will too.
Agree about the rising problem of Chinese EVs. We and Europe can put tariffs on their cars. But, there is still Australia, New Zealand, India, AFRICA, and South America where we don't have much influence. So that is why the US needs to QUICKLY DOMINATE EV technology. Right now European new car hybrid electric sales are 25%. EU new car all-electric EVs are 15%. In the US only 6% of new car sales are all-electric.
......It makes sense that the EU has greater EV sales than the US because the cost of gasoline is MUCH higher in the EU. The US needs to FIGHT THAT and NOT become complacent and lose our factory and technology edge in EVs. The US government should do everything in its power to bring new EV sales up to about 30%. That would help our environment (like the Florida fishing industry - due to CO2 destroying coral reefs) and the world's environment. It would go a long way toward REVERSING the HEAT experienced here in the US and in the world.
.........So far this summer, worldwide it is the HOTTEST on record.

[jimjamuser]

EV vehicles are the future of the automotive industry. If we don't make them, they will come from China or somewhere else.
Yes, music to MY ears - I have been saying that for about 1 year.

[JMintzer]

Yes, music to MY ears - I have been saying that for about 1 year.

Talk is cheap... Walking the walk isn't...

[Stu from NYC]

Talk is cheap... Walking the walk isn't...

As an uncle used to say, do as I say not as I do. So easy to just tell others what to do.

[Rainger99]

These are cheaper than golf carts!!!

Cheap Chinese Electric Cars About to Upend the US Vehicle Market (https://www.businessinsider.com/cheap-chinese-electric-cars-will-upend-the-us-vehicle-market-2023-5?amp)

[jimjamuser]

This is what happens when you allow a political administration, that knows nothing about business, to influence your decisions.
That is such an exaggeration that it is humorous.

[jimjamuser]

EV's are the future if you want to save the planet for future generations. All startups have initial problems and losses.
Yes, I can agree to that.

[jimjamuser]

Hilarious. I'm going to save this whole discussion for my great grandchildren to read someday - say 50 years from now when they have cars we cannot even imagine. They will howl with laughter at all the EV naysayers back in 2023 who can't focus on the big picture, which is: We are now WAY early in EV technology. Those of us that have and love EVs are early adopters, well aware of the current issue with outside charging stations, prices, etc. But we also know that major changes are happening NOW in the EV industry, such as solid state batteries that will have 2X or 3X the range in a few years. And the car companies know that they need to invest in the EV game or go extinct, even if the next few years are going to be financially tough for them. Because the current technology of internal combustion engines is on its way out, declining in market share vs. EVs, as we speak.
Well written!

[jimjamuser]

Most definitely not. However, it will give more power and control to those that seek to consolidate it. And I say this as a Tesla owner.

When you look at the means of production, it is anything but green, and the logistics of people who don't own garages to charge them is untenable. And the grid can't handle it anyway.
In 1900 they said that the IC automobile was BAD because it scared the horses. A lot of the EV naysayers sound the same to me.

[jimjamuser]

I know people don’t care if I worked for Ford for 38yrs. But your right EV’s are to expensive for most of us to buy. I’m thinking Ford sees the writing on the wall. EV’s are a short distance auto’s. I drive from Texas to Ohio 3 times a yr. & I yet have seen a charging station & if I would are the chargers all the same do you have to sit in line & wait for 2 other EV’s ahead you for 2,3 or 4 hrs. before it’s your turn, plus are you going to be patient enough to wait an 1 1/2 hrs. to charge yours & the biggest thing can you afford to pay $40,000 more for the same vehicle you have now. Most of these EV’s your paying for HP not realablity. People have to weigh the pros & cons before they invest in a very expensive EV.
Electrical motors move in a circle. IC motors go up and down causing a lot of friction and wasted energy. And the water pump and the oil pump and the radiator. All NOT needed in an electrical motor. Electrical motors have more torque almost instantaneously. Best of all the electrical generating plant that supplies a hundred EVs is stationary so it is easier to control pollution. And there are CLEAN energy electrical sources. We can lower our CO2 production which will prevent people from killing themselves with pollution causing Global Warming.

[Rainger99]

And there are CLEAN energy electrical sources. We can lower our CO2 production which will prevent people from killing themselves with pollution causing Global Warming.

There are clean energy sources - but not enough.

Electric Cars Are Not Necessarily Clean - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/)

[Pugchief]

Especially at 3x the cost of my Camry.

A new 2024 Camry would start at $26,420.
A new Tesla Model 3 starts at $40,240 but after the $7500 tax credit is $32,740.

That's only a difference of $6320.

[Rainger99]

A new 2024 Camry would start at $26,420.
A new Tesla Model 3 starts at $40,240 but after the $7500 tax credit is $32,740.

That's only a difference of $6320.

Depending on the outcome of the strike, Teslas may soon be cheaper than ICEs.

Right now, Tesla spends about $45 an hour on labor (this cost combines hourly wages and benefits), while Ford, GM, and Stellantis are currently spending about $66 an hour.

If the UAW gets its way on pay increases and things like reviving pensions, the Detroit 3's hourly labor costs could more than double to $136 an hour.

Tesla Employees Make $20 Less Per Hour Than GM, Ford. UAW Proposal Would Double the Gap. (https://www.businessinsider.com/uaw-strike-tesla-pay-gap-gm-ford-stellantis-labor-hourly-wages-2023-9)

[Bay Kid]

A new 2024 Camry would start at $26,420.
A new Tesla Model 3 starts at $40,240 but after the $7500 tax credit is $32,740.

That's only a difference of $6320.

Sure nice that taxpayers are paying for other peoples cars.

[Pugchief]

Sure nice that taxpayers are paying for other peoples cars.

Yes, it's ridiculous, but that's what they do: give other people your money, AKA redistribution. Sometimes it's to incentivize something they want to push, sometimes it's under the guise of attempting to equalize some perceived imbalance. Sometimes it's enriching their donors. Sometimes it's local pork projects. Etc, etc.

Good luck trying to make that stop, it is not anything new.

[threeonemiles@outlook.com]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)
F O R D- Fix Or Repair Daily

[OhioBuckeye]

Oh not worried it’ll be paid, Ford once in a while they’ll surprise you. The thing I didn’t like about Ford the UAW is very hard a one way political party! But you’re exactly right what you said in your comment!

[Nellmack]

We don't hate EV's. Just like we don't hate electric golf carts. (Except for the fact you get subsidies and avoid taxes for highway maintenance).For many EVs are a good fit for their transportation needs.

What we HATE is the dictatorial mandates set in place that will eventually eliminate ICE vehicles. This will have a catastrophic impact on the mobility we take for granted today.

This is because the electrical grid CAN NOT begin to handle the increased demand if most vehicles on the road are EVs. Plus renewables as an energy source for base load plants is a joke. Also the charging times will turn driving into a much more stressful experience because of the challenge of not running low on charge. And during winter, EVs performance drops dramatically.

Until they have solid state batteries and mini nukes to ensure a stable grid then forcing everyone to drive an EV will have catastrophic impact on our standard of living and way of life. Well on second thought, maybe that is the true objective.

There are a lot of misunderstanding that I hope I can clear up.
I'm a car guy from way back (mustangs to specific - sill have one) but my EV is the best car I've ever bought, by far. I don't think anyone in the government is dictating that we're all going to have to buy a new EV. I would suggest that car companies see how much better they are and how much easier they are to make and service so it's a no brainer that they go down the EV path. I got rear ended and needed to have my car repaired so I got a loner Mercedes SUV. It was as slow as molasses and the transmission made so much noise (at every acceleration) that it made me nervous to drive. I had to drive (10 minutes) to a gas station and fill up (another 10 minutes) with $75 of gas that lasted like two days. I charge my EV at night so I wake up with a full charge every morning (330 miles of range - thank you).

I'm on my second EV (nine years) and I have never once waited to charge my car. When I drive to Charleston or Florida I can't wait to get out of my car and stretch my legs for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes to charge to full.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I would bet that the "electrical grid" is being up dated on a continuous basis and I'd also bet that some pretty smart people are factoring EV use over the next 100 years. The only complaints about electrical grid problems that I've heard are from dooms day folks saying the world is going to explode because of EV's. :)

I for one love my EV, it's lightening fast, dirt cheap to drive, I NEVER use my brakes so no break dust on my wheels and I don't have to pay to have my break pads replaced (or my rotors cut), I don't pay for oil changes or transmission repairs or.....anything. A full charge costs about $18 - yee haw! Love it!

[jimjamuser]

There are clean energy sources - but not enough.

Electric Cars Are Not Necessarily Clean - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/)
That's true.......today. But, in the future, more clean sources will be used. For example, nuclear energy generating plants - nuclear energy safety has come a long way. Unfortunately, there is still a popular idea that nuclear plants are unsafe......like the early ones were. That safety technology has improved greatly in recent years.

[jimjamuser]

Depending on the outcome of the strike, Teslas may soon be cheaper than ICEs.

Right now, Tesla spends about $45 an hour on labor (this cost combines hourly wages and benefits), while Ford, GM, and Stellantis are currently spending about $66 an hour.

If the UAW gets its way on pay increases and things like reviving pensions, the Detroit 3's hourly labor costs could more than double to $136 an hour.

Tesla Employees Make $20 Less Per Hour Than GM, Ford. UAW Proposal Would Double the Gap. (https://www.businessinsider.com/uaw-strike-tesla-pay-gap-gm-ford-stellantis-labor-hourly-wages-2023-9)
There is another reason WHY ANY E-vehicle will EVENTUALLY be cheaper than ANY IC engine vehicle..............the Electrical engine uses fewer parts than the IC engine.

[jimjamuser]

Sure nice that taxpayers are paying for other peoples cars.
The Government is using taxpayer money in the proper manner - to do the best thing for society and the US future. If we let the Chinese dominate EV technology, then they will become richer and the US will become poorer. I for one do NOT want THAT to HAPPEN.

[jimjamuser]

Yes, it's ridiculous, but that's what they do: give other people your money, AKA redistribution. Sometimes it's to incentivize something they want to push, sometimes it's under the guise of attempting to equalize some perceived imbalance. Sometimes it's enriching their donors. Sometimes it's local pork projects. Etc, etc.

Good luck trying to make that stop, it is not anything new.
REDISTRIBUTION...........Ideally, taking some money away from the rich (through IRS tax tables) (money they barely are aware that they have).......can do some good for society. Such as building hospitals in poor areas, and building better PUBLIC schools in middle-class and lower areas. Paying for MORE Police salaries to stop crime(crime is rampant today). Keeping libraries open (they are closing). The list goes on and on because it is basically improving America and making society more stable.

[jimjamuser]

There are a lot of misunderstanding that I hope I can clear up.
I'm a car guy from way back (mustangs to specific - sill have one) but my EV is the best car I've ever bought, by far. I don't think anyone in the government is dictating that we're all going to have to buy a new EV. I would suggest that car companies see how much better they are and how much easier they are to make and service so it's a no brainer that they go down the EV path. I got rear ended and needed to have my car repaired so I got a loner Mercedes SUV. It was as slow as molasses and the transmission made so much noise (at every acceleration) that it made me nervous to drive. I had to drive (10 minutes) to a gas station and fill up (another 10 minutes) with $75 of gas that lasted like two days. I charge my EV at night so I wake up with a full charge every morning (330 miles of range - thank you).

I'm on my second EV (nine years) and I have never once waited to charge my car. When I drive to Charleston or Florida I can't wait to get out of my car and stretch my legs for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes to charge to full.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I would bet that the "electrical grid" is being up dated on a continuous basis and I'd also bet that some pretty smart people are factoring EV use over the next 100 years. The only complaints about electrical grid problems that I've heard are from dooms day folks saying the world is going to explode because of EV's. :)

I for one love my EV, it's lightening fast, dirt cheap to drive, I NEVER use my brakes so no break dust on my wheels and I don't have to pay to have my break pads replaced (or my rotors cut), I don't pay for oil changes or transmission repairs or.....anything. A full charge costs about $18 - yee haw! Love it!
A great post about the OVERWHELMING positives and advantages of owning an E-vehicle.

[Keefelane66]

There are a lot of misunderstanding that I hope I can clear up.
I'm a car guy from way back (mustangs to specific - sill have one) but my EV is the best car I've ever bought, by far. I don't think anyone in the government is dictating that we're all going to have to buy a new EV. I would suggest that car companies see how much better they are and how much easier they are to make and service so it's a no brainer that they go down the EV path. I got rear ended and needed to have my car repaired so I got a loner Mercedes SUV. It was as slow as molasses and the transmission made so much noise (at every acceleration) that it made me nervous to drive. I had to drive (10 minutes) to a gas station and fill up (another 10 minutes) with $75 of gas that lasted like two days. I charge my EV at night so I wake up with a full charge every morning (330 miles of range - thank you).

I'm on my second EV (nine years) and I have never once waited to charge my car. When I drive to Charleston or Florida I can't wait to get out of my car and stretch my legs for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes to charge to full.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I would bet that the "electrical grid" is being up dated on a continuous basis and I'd also bet that some pretty smart people are factoring EV use over the next 100 years. The only complaints about electrical grid problems that I've heard are from dooms day folks saying the world is going to explode because of EV's. :)

I for one love my EV, it's lightening fast, dirt cheap to drive, I NEVER use my brakes so no break dust on my wheels and I don't have to pay to have my break pads replaced (or my rotors cut), I don't pay for oil changes or transmission repairs or.....anything. A full charge costs about $18 - yee haw! Love it!
Thanks for an actual user information instead of uninformed speculation just to let you know well have a Costco in The Villages sometime in 2025.

[phylt]

There are a lot of misunderstanding that I hope I can clear up.
I'm a car guy from way back (mustangs to specific - sill have one) but my EV is the best car I've ever bought, by far. I don't think anyone in the government is dictating that we're all going to have to buy a new EV. I would suggest that car companies see how much better they are and how much easier they are to make and service so it's a no brainer that they go down the EV path. I got rear ended and needed to have my car repaired so I got a loner Mercedes SUV. It was as slow as molasses and the transmission made so much noise (at every acceleration) that it made me nervous to drive. I had to drive (10 minutes) to a gas station and fill up (another 10 minutes) with $75 of gas that lasted like two days. I charge my EV at night so I wake up with a full charge every morning (330 miles of range - thank you).

I'm on my second EV (nine years) and I have never once waited to charge my car. When I drive to Charleston or Florida I can't wait to get out of my car and stretch my legs for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes to charge to full.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I would bet that the "electrical grid" is being up dated on a continuous basis and I'd also bet that some pretty smart people are factoring EV use over the next 100 years. The only complaints about electrical grid problems that I've heard are from dooms day folks saying the world is going to explode because of EV's. :)

I for one love my EV, it's lightening fast, dirt cheap to drive, I NEVER use my brakes so no break dust on my wheels and I don't have to pay to have my break pads replaced (or my rotors cut), I don't pay for oil changes or transmission repairs or.....anything. A full charge costs about $18 - yee haw! Love it!


------
100%++ I'm a car guy too. We drove a Tesla Model Y and 3 in the past 4 months. My sons had rental cars when they visited and we both test drove. Then went to Orlando Tesla store for more. OMG! We were sold. Totally. We will order the Brand New 2024 Model 3 when the order bank opens, hopefully the next couple months. And sell our ICE SUV after. It's perfectly fine, but we love the Tesla. And ------------BONUS! No lyin' creepy deceiving Car Dealers to work with. Ordering a Tesla is 5 minutes on their site.

Your examples are spot-on. We can't wait.

[Caymus]

There are a lot of misunderstanding that I hope I can clear up.
I'm a car guy from way back (mustangs to specific - sill have one) but my EV is the best car I've ever bought, by far. I don't think anyone in the government is dictating that we're all going to have to buy a new EV. I would suggest that car companies see how much better they are and how much easier they are to make and service so it's a no brainer that they go down the EV path. I got rear ended and needed to have my car repaired so I got a loner Mercedes SUV. It was as slow as molasses and the transmission made so much noise (at every acceleration) that it made me nervous to drive. I had to drive (10 minutes) to a gas station and fill up (another 10 minutes) with $75 of gas that lasted like two days. I charge my EV at night so I wake up with a full charge every morning (330 miles of range - thank you).

I'm on my second EV (nine years) and I have never once waited to charge my car. When I drive to Charleston or Florida I can't wait to get out of my car and stretch my legs for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes to charge to full.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I would bet that the "electrical grid" is being up dated on a continuous basis and I'd also bet that some pretty smart people are factoring EV use over the next 100 years. The only complaints about electrical grid problems that I've heard are from dooms day folks saying the world is going to explode because of EV's. :)

I for one love my EV, it's lightening fast, dirt cheap to drive, I NEVER use my brakes so no break dust on my wheels and I don't have to pay to have my break pads replaced (or my rotors cut), I don't pay for oil changes or transmission repairs or.....anything. A full charge costs about $18 - yee haw! Love it!

How does all this allow Ford to compete against lower cost EV makers. They will be the highest cost manufacturer.

[Pugchief]

There are a lot of misunderstanding that I hope I can clear up.
I'm a car guy from way back (mustangs to specific - sill have one) but my EV is the best car I've ever bought, by far. I don't think anyone in the government is dictating that we're all going to have to buy a new EV. I would suggest that car companies see how much better they are and how much easier they are to make and service so it's a no brainer that they go down the EV path. I got rear ended and needed to have my car repaired so I got a loner Mercedes SUV. It was as slow as molasses and the transmission made so much noise (at every acceleration) that it made me nervous to drive. I had to drive (10 minutes) to a gas station and fill up (another 10 minutes) with $75 of gas that lasted like two days. I charge my EV at night so I wake up with a full charge every morning (330 miles of range - thank you).

I'm on my second EV (nine years) and I have never once waited to charge my car. When I drive to Charleston or Florida I can't wait to get out of my car and stretch my legs for 20 minutes because that's how long it takes to charge to full.

I'm not an electrical engineer but I would bet that the "electrical grid" is being up dated on a continuous basis and I'd also bet that some pretty smart people are factoring EV use over the next 100 years. The only complaints about electrical grid problems that I've heard are from dooms day folks saying the world is going to explode because of EV's. :)

I for one love my EV, it's lightening fast, dirt cheap to drive, I NEVER use my brakes so no break dust on my wheels and I don't have to pay to have my break pads replaced (or my rotors cut), I don't pay for oil changes or transmission repairs or.....anything. A full charge costs about $18 - yee haw! Love it!

Ya, good analysis other than the paragraph about the grid. I have seen no evidence of upgrading; in fact if anything, it is the opposite. CA is particularly bad, but brown outs in the summer are common in a bunch of places. EVs will just add to that problem. And again, I own a Tesla.

[Eg_cruz]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)
Not why everyone is jumping on the EV, it’s a myth that it’s great for the environment.

[Rainger99]

For those of you that have bought an EV, would you have bought it if there were no tax credit??

[Pugchief]

For those of you that have bought an EV, would you have bought it if there were no tax credit??

The credit figured in to the "total net cost" when deciding. So, no, I probably would not have spent another $7500 on my Tesla. But magically, when they ran out of credits, the price dropped by almost exactly the amount of the credit.

Reminds me of the government subsidizing college loans and then the price of college going up.

[jimjamuser]

How does all this allow Ford to compete against lower cost EV makers. They will be the highest cost manufacturer.
One way for Ford and the US Big 3 to be more competitive is to REDUCE the CEOs' salaries. They are all making around 20 MILLION dollars per year. Japanese CEOs make one or two MILLION per year.

[jimjamuser]

The credit figured in to the "total net cost" when deciding. So, no, I probably would not have spent another $7500 on my Tesla. But magically, when they ran out of credits, the price dropped by almost exactly the amount of the credit.

Reminds me of the government subsidizing college loans and then the price of college going up.
College Administration and CEOs of the Big 3 have one thing in common - they both make too much money.

[JMintzer]

One way for Ford and the US Big 3 to be more competitive is to REDUCE the CEOs' salaries. They are all making around 20 MILLION dollars per year. Japanese CEOs make one or two MILLION per year.

Nonsense. That money, spread out over the union workers would barely be seen in their paychecks...

[Stu from NYC]

To figure this out would need to have access to their cost accounting system

[Pugchief]

According to this article, the loss per vehicle is $60,000 not $32,000 which is even more shocking.

ford-to-lose-an-astonishing-amount-of-money-on-electric-cars (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2023/09/20/ford-to-lose-an-astonishing-amount-of-money-on-electric-cars-n2628679)

[Rainger99]

For those with EVs, what is the longest period of time that you have had to wait for a charging station - and, after starting to charge, what is the longest time that it has taken to charge?

And what has been the average time?

[Pugchief]

Rivian, which like Tesla, exclusively manufactures EVs, also lost $33,000 per vehicle.

From the Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/rivian-ev-truck-electric-vehicle-8e8dc124)

[ithos]

Rivian, which like Tesla, exclusively manufactures EVs, also lost $33,000 per vehicle.

From the Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/rivian-ev-truck-electric-vehicle-8e8dc124)

All cars should be EVs. It is a small price to pay to prevent hurricanes, loss of coastland due to rising sea levels, floods, droughts, threats to biodiversity, and bad hair days.

[Robbb]

Many say that no one wants an EV. Go to to a dealers lot and try to buy one or even test drive. They sell faster than they are being manufactured.

Not sure where you are getting that. I recently read a report that GM has sold a total of 36,000 Ev's this year, Ford was something like 6,000 and Chryster something like 2,000.. This is out of the 14,000,000 that have been sold over the past 12 months. Outside of Tesla the big 3 aren't really selling any.

[Robbb]

Yes, it's ridiculous, but that's what they do: give other people your money, AKA redistribution. Sometimes it's to incentivize something they want to push, sometimes it's under the guise of attempting to equalize some perceived imbalance. Sometimes it's enriching their donors. Sometimes it's local pork projects. Etc, etc.

Good luck trying to make that stop, it is not anything new.

None of this matters, we are going to EV's. Look up BYD motors in China. They have become the #2 EV car maker in the world, and will shortly overtake Tesla in EVs. We are screwed.

[Stu from NYC]

Nonsense. That money, spread out over the union workers would barely be seen in their paychecks...

You beat me to it.

[JMintzer]

All cars should be EVs. It is a small price to pay to prevent hurricanes, loss of coastland due to rising sea levels, floods, droughts, threats to biodiversity, and bad hair days.

https://media.tenor.com/yeJw5Y-wSpgAAAAC/not-sure-hmm.gif

[Pugchief]

All cars should be EVs. It is a small price to pay to prevent hurricanes, loss of coastland due to rising sea levels, floods, droughts, threats to biodiversity, and bad hair days.

https://media.tenor.com/yeJw5Y-wSpgAAAAC/not-sure-hmm.gif

Only about the bad hair days. The rest is without merit.

[dewilson58]

This does not seem to be a sound business plan!!

Ford Loses Over $32,000 Per EV During The Second Quarter, Shifts Production Goals | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/ford-loses-over-32000-per-ev-during-the-second-quarter-shifts-production-goals/)

Shocking.

:duck:

[mtdjed]

Originally Posted by Caymus View Post
How does all this allow Ford to compete against lower cost EV makers. They will be the highest cost manufacturer.

One way for Ford and the US Big 3 to be more competitive is to REDUCE the CEOs' salaries. They are all making around 20 MILLION dollars per year. Japanese CEOs make one or two MILLION per year.

Put that one to bed. Ford CEO makes $21,000,000/Yr. Ford makes around 6,500,000 vehicles. So that wage amounts to about $3.25 per vehicle.

CEO wage has relatively small impact on auto cost. Unit cost is a function of Labor, Materials and overhead. CEO salary is a very small part of overhead.

[Keefelane66]

Ford is recalling over 700,000 vehicles conventional gas engines
Ford F-150 Car Recalls | Ford F-150 Car Recall Tracker | DealerRater (https://www.dealerrater.com/recalls/Ford/F_150/)

[Jima72]

EV vehicles are the future of the automotive industry. If we don't make them, they will come from China or somewhere else.

People need to check on what is going on in china as to electric cars. Lot of them are being stored because of becoming firebombs. Same with the scooters with the lithium batteries. Of course Americans will buy them if they can save a few dollars, until they explode.

[Caymus]

People need to check on what is going on in china as to electric cars. Lot of them are being stored because of becoming firebombs. Same with the scooters with the lithium batteries. Of course Americans will buy them if they can save a few dollars, until they explode.

About 40% cheaper

[mickey100]

People need to check on what is going on in china as to electric cars. Lot of them are being stored because of becoming firebombs. Same with the scooters with the lithium batteries. Of course Americans will buy them if they can save a few dollars, until they explode.

Urban legend. Autoweek posted a study that showed hybrids had the most fires, followed by gasoline cars, with electric vehicles having the least number of fires. Lithium battery fires do burn stronger though, and last longer.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by Caymus View Post
How does all this allow Ford to compete against lower cost EV makers. They will be the highest cost manufacturer.



Put that one to bed. Ford CEO makes $21,000,000/Yr. Ford makes around 6,500,000 vehicles. So that wage amounts to about $3.25 per vehicle.

CEO wage has relatively small impact on auto cost. Unit cost is a function of Labor, Materials and overhead. CEO salary is a very small part of overhead.

A basic understanding of economics and finance and some posters would not make the silly comments they make.

[Robbb]

People need to check on what is going on in china as to electric cars. Lot of them are being stored because of becoming firebombs. Same with the scooters with the lithium batteries. Of course Americans will buy them if they can save a few dollars, until they explode.

Google BYD motors.... we are toast.

[MrChip72]

People need to check on what is going on in china as to electric cars. Lot of them are being stored because of becoming firebombs. Same with the scooters with the lithium batteries. Of course Americans will buy them if they can save a few dollars, until they explode.

Sounds like you're referencing the link below, but the reason for them being stored is that some Chinese companies initially set out to be building cheap junk EV's pre-COVID in a race to the bottom for cheapness along with government subsidies. That all backfired and now there's thousands of junk cars that no one wants.

Now you have legitimate companies like BYD in China that have just surpassed Ford as the 4th biggest carmaker in the world, and BYD only makes EV's, and likely to produce over 2 million cars per year by next year. Now every other country is going to be stuck playing catchup.

China EV graveyard (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I have owned a tesla, fantastic car. Most of the time charged it at home. It only becomes a problem on a long range trip. So far, when I used it that way, it wasn’t too bad but what happens when you have too many of them and not enough infrastructure for recharging? Until new battery technology comes around, a chargeable hybrid is the best transition vehicle. So why are people, particularly the administration, pushing a technology that would strip the earth of the minerals to provide these batteries? Why would anyone hold a meeting of car manufacturers of electric cars and not invite Elon Musk? I can only assume brainless zombies are making these decisions because they are so stupid.

I'd rather see Eberhard and Tarpenning at EV meetings. They're the ones who created Tesla. Musk just poured money into it.

[Two Bills]

EV's are kidnapping people!

'''I was kidnapped by my runaway electric car''' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620)

[Stu from NYC]

I'd rather see Eberhard and Tarpenning at EV meetings. They're the ones who created Tesla. Musk just poured money into it.

Where would the company be without Musk who also built the co.

[Two Bills]

Where would the company be without Musk who also built the co.

Bought out by GM?

[Stu from NYC]

Bought out by GM?

Have wondered why Tesla was not bought out in their early stages by a much larger auto mfger.

[bopat]

Ford and the legacy carmakers (and electric golf cart makers, for that matter) are building cars and carts that just happen to be powered by electric motors and batteries.

Tesla builds an experience, electric powered, of which part of that experience is the car itself.

That's the difference. Consider yourself enlightened now ;)

[JMintzer]

I'd rather see Eberhard and Tarpenning at EV meetings. They're the ones who created Tesla. Musk just poured money into it.

And Steve Jobs never made an iPhone... What's your point?

[JMintzer]

Urban legend. Autoweek posted a study that showed hybrids had the most fires, followed by gasoline cars, with electric vehicles having the least number of fires. Lithium battery fires do burn stronger though, and last longer.

What are the # of fires PER VEHICLE? If there are only 10 EV fires, but they only make 100 EVs, thats 10%, right?

The # of fires is irrelevant without that information...

[Bill14564]

What are the # of fires PER VEHICLE? If there are only 10 EV fires, but they only make 100 EVs, thats 10%, right?

The # of fires is irrelevant without that information...

Google is your friend

Three articles reference the same study. Numbers given in fires/100K sales of vehicle types.

Possibly deceptive statistics. If the vehicles that burned were older the statistics would be skewed since EVs are relatively new. Would be interesting to see fires/100K in model year.

[JMintzer]

Google is your friend

Three articles reference the same study. Numbers given in fires/100K sales of vehicle types.

Possibly deceptive statistics. If the vehicles that burned were older the statistics would be skewed since EVs are relatively new. Would be interesting to see fires/100K in model year.

Since I didn't make the claim, I shouldn't have to provide/find the information...

[Bill14564]

Since I didn't make the claim, I shouldn't have to provide/find the information...

Weak justification for suggesting the claim was irrelevant.

[JMintzer]

Weak justification for suggesting the claim was irrelevant.

Nothing weak about it...

I never said the claim was irrelevant. The numbers are what the numbers are. I did say that additional information was needed to determine the relevance of the numbers...

Yes there are more ICE fires than EV fires. But that, by itself, means nothing...

How many more ICE fires? How many less EV fires? What is the "per capita" of fires per each type of vehicle? Asking those questions is a "weak justification"?

You can do better than that.

[Topspinmo]

One way for Ford and the US Big 3 to be more competitive is to REDUCE the CEOs' salaries. They are all making around 20 MILLION dollars per year. Japanese CEOs make one or two MILLION per year.


Another way would be fire all UAWs and start over with non-union work force alike all foreign companies and Tesla.

[Topspinmo]

I'd rather see Eberhard and Tarpenning at EV meetings. They're the ones who created Tesla. Musk just poured money into it.

Musk don’t build rockets either. Probably not 1 CEO that’s ever built anything. They pay someone to do that.

[Bill14564]

Nothing weak about it...

I never said the claim was irrelevant. The numbers are what the numbers are. I did say that additional information was needed to determine the relevance of the numbers...

Yes there are more ICE fires than EV fires. But that, by itself, means nothing...

How many more ICE fires? How many less EV fires? What is the "per capita" of fires per each type of vehicle? Asking those questions is a "weak justification"?

You can do better than that.

You seem to have a lot of questions. Again, google is your friend. (Though blissful is not a bad state of being)

[JMintzer]

You seem to have a lot of questions. Again, google is your friend. (Though blissful is not a bad state of being)

Anyone with with a cogent counterpoint will provide info to back up their assertion...

I would think you would know that. But I guess you're just "blissful" on the concept...