2023 Flu shots and Covid booster

[Velvet]

Ah, coffeebean, where have you been? A breath of fresh air….

[JMintzer]

SARS-CoV-2 viral load is associated with risk of transmission to household and community contacts | BMC Infectious Diseases | Full Text (https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-022-07663-1)

Interesting, but it has nothing to do with the post I was questioning...

[JMintzer]

You didn't quote the post you are referring to. Which one?

Probably one of my posts... :loco::loco::loco:

[JMintzer]

What to Know About COVID Viral Load (https://www.webmd.com/covid/covid-viral-load)

Well, considering the patient who gave me Covid died, I would suspect he had a high "viral load"...

Which again, doesn't explain why my case (pre-vax availability) was so mild...

Oh, and the patient was an uncontrolled diabetic, morbidly obese, former smoker, with breathing problems.

He also refused to go to the doctor or the ER when he got sick... Lest you think it was his lack of vaccination that killed him...

[Whitley]

I find it hard to believe people won't get Covid shots. There are so many false claims circulating about the shots, and people don't seem to be able to ascertain what is true and what isn't. What we do know is that the vaccines been given to millions of people, are safe, and very good at preventing serious or fatal cases of Covid. The risk of serious side effects from these vaccines is tiny, similiar to what would be expected with any other vaccine. And it gives some protection against long Covid. I have 2 friends who contracted long covid as a result of infection before shots were available, and it has changed their lives forever. But the Covid virus mutates and new strains are circulating that our previous vaccinations aren't going to be effective for, like what we experience with the flu. The population will need periodic boosters. You get an annual flu shot, right? Your doctor is recommending a Covid booster. Try listening to him or her.

Then you should definitely get boosters once or twice a year, if this is your opinion. My doctor advised against my getting it. That, along with my research led me to decide against getting the shot and subsequent boosters. Not arguing that you shouldn't get them, again your choice. What should be agreed upon is that public officials need to be more prudent in what they say. The amount of harm done by calling one view conspiracy nuts, only to reverse what you said a year later irreparably damages the trust people have.

[Whitley]

Originally Posted by JMintzer View Post
I had a very mild case of Covid a year before any vaccine was available. Whom do I thank?

If we are to believe what Fauci was saying, a bat in a wet market. If we are to believe his emails, it could be the Wuhan Lab.

[Whitley]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC View Post
Well we have had vaccines and boosters and got covid twice but both mild cases.

Until my doctor says no will continue
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

My cardiologist in NY lost his license for selling salt tablets as currently unapproved but proven effective BP treatment. The doc had a gambling problem. Went on for many years. What I am saying is you should take what your doctor says into consideration (giving it more weight than other views) BUT if you hear contrary views you may want to get a second opinion. Doctors are human after all (in spite of what some of them may say)

[UpNorth]

First the vax, then the masks, next we will be instructed to walk like sheep one-way down the aisles at WalMart.

[Whitley]

Originally Posted by coffeebean View Post
Agree with this. Hubby and I have had Covid only once that we know of. Both of us experienced very mild symptoms.......thanks to the vaccine.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

I had covid and never even knew I had it, thanks to my not getting the vaccine. Of course my post is silly. How would I know how covid would have affected me had I gotten the vaccine?
My business partner (vaxxed and double boosted, age 58) developed a prior undiagnosed heart issue. He went in for a procedure to take a sample (biopsy) of tissue and passed during what he told me was a routine procedure. I went to pick him up for the drive home and he was gone. I would be dishonest if I said it was caused by the vaccine and boosters he got. I would be dishonest if I said it was not caused by the vaccine and boosters. I have no way of knowing, just as we have no way of knowing how severe covid would be to us as a vaccinated or unvaccinated individual.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by coffeebean View Post
Agree with this. Hubby and I have had Covid only once that we know of. Both of us experienced very mild symptoms.......thanks to the vaccine.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

I had covid and never even knew I had it, thanks to my not getting the vaccine. Of course my post is silly. How would I know how covid would have affected me had I gotten the vaccine?
My business partner (vaxxed and double boosted, age 58) developed a prior undiagnosed heart issue. He went in for a procedure to take a sample (biopsy) of tissue and passed during what he told me was a routine procedure. I went to pick him up for the drive home and he was gone. I would be dishonest if I said it was caused by the vaccine and boosters he got. I would be dishonest if I said it was not caused by the vaccine and boosters. I have no way of knowing, just as we have no way of knowing how severe covid would be to us as a vaccinated or unvaccinated individual.

This is where data analysis on large scale helps, one can isolate significant factors mathematically, what countries practice to make policy decisions (sometimes).

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC View Post
Well we have had vaccines and boosters and got covid twice but both mild cases.

Until my doctor says no will continue
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

My cardiologist in NY lost his license for selling salt tablets as currently unapproved but proven effective BP treatment. The doc had a gambling problem. Went on for many years. What I am saying is you should take what your doctor says into consideration (giving it more weight than other views) BUT if you hear contrary views you may want to get a second opinion. Doctors are human after all (in spite of what some of them may say)

Adding salt to lower BP? Really? My understanding is to consume less salt.

[Byte1]

Amazing! So, one poster is very adamant that they had a very "mild" case of covid because they had their vaccination. That same person suggests that someone that did NOT get the vaccination and had a mild case, did so because of "viral load." Amazing! So, all but one of my children and grandchildren had Covid and minor symptoms, before the vaccination was available. All of them must attribute their mild symptoms due to viral load. I've never had the Flu and haven't had a flu shot in over 50 years. I guess that is due to viral load? Or maybe I have never been exposed to the flu virus in 50 years? On the other hand, I know one family member and his wife that have had every booster available and has had covid at least three times, and were miserable each time. I guess they would have been hospitalized if they did not have the vaccination? I am NOT saying that they wouldn't have. And I am not suggesting that the poster is making assumptions based on "expert" statements. Since I can not claim to be an expert medical professional, I can not make a statement with the same certainty. I am just glad that those that are soooo certain that they have been "saved" from hospitalization and death due to having a vaccination, are still with us today. Of course, there are also many that have suggested that the vaccination has a record of major side effect too. In the past year, I have noticed that many athletes (that should be in excellent physical shape) have died of heart attacks. News worthy since it was noted that they had their vaccinations. Just saying.
And NO, I do not know where the OP might secure their booster shots.
And yes, I think I might have had Covid once, but I treated it as a cold and did not get tested for Covid. But, my spouse tested and the test came back positive. She had a minor case, apparently. Must be because she had her first vaccination. She says she is not going to get boosters. :wave:

[retiredguy123]

Got my RSV and Covid shots at Walgreens today. The Covid was the Pfizer brand even though all my other shots were Moderna. Easy peasy.

[Whitley]

Adding salt to lower BP? Really? My understanding is to consume less salt.

That, along with stealing over 6 figures from mostly elderly patients could be why they pulled his license. It's a thought, no? The patients had no idea they were salt tablets (like you they would know salt is not a great BP med.. The good doc (who really was a great guy prior to his weakness with gambling) was scamming us. He came from a lower economic end of India and raised himself to being a cardiologist in one of the wealthiest suburbs outside NYC. Very unfortunate.

Point I am making is that it is proper to place a lot of trust in your doctor, BUT getting a second opinion (or more) for significant life/health events is prudent. Doctors are human, with the same frailties as others (sorry docs). Not all are shining examples of humanity. You owe it to yourself to be educated on what you do to your body.

[Whitley]

sssss

[Stu from NYC]

That, along with stealing over 6 figures from mostly elderly patients could be why they pulled his license. It's a thought, no? The patients had no idea they were salt tablets (like you they would know salt is not a great BP med.. The good doc (who really was a great guy prior to his weakness with gambling) was scamming us. He came from a lower economic end of India and raised himself to being a cardiologist in one of the wealthiest suburbs outside NYC. Very unfortunate.

Point I am making is that it is proper to place a lot of trust in your doctor, BUT getting a second opinion (or more) for significant life/health events is prudent. Doctors are human, with the same frailties as others (sorry docs). Not all are shining examples of humanity. You owe it to yourself to be educated on what you do to your body.

As Ronald Reagon said trust but verify.

When we get blood tests we review them and understand that some changes in our medications might be necessary but reviewing info on google lets me discuss with Dr intelligently. I hope what I said was intelligent.

[Bill14564]

I wonder if someone who is vaxxed and boosted and still gets a bad case of covid, would be able to say "..Sure I am vaxxed and boosted, and sure I am very very sick with covid, but were it not for the shot I'd be dead". ?

They might. They might also consider that vaccines are not100% effective and sometimes s*** just happens.

When three of us got the flu even though we all had the vaccine we didn’t jump to accuse the Govt and vaccine manufacturers of fraud and we didn’t say, “if only there had been 12 years of testing…”

I would like to find the numbers for vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths but I doubt they are available. Unfortunately, if they were available I’m sure many would misinterpret them so maybe it’s better if they are not.

[Whitley]

As Ronald Reagon said trust but verify.

When we get blood tests we review them and understand that some changes in our medications might be necessary but reviewing info on google lets me discuss with Dr intelligently. I hope what I said was intelligent.

Being a doctor today is not what many of the older docs (our age) signed up for. Speaking with one of my doctors yesterday, and was told to make it today doctors have to join large groups with an office staff. In addition to the help filing and submitting everything, such groups get an added admin or structure fee (i forget the word he used), which he is not given as a private practice. I need to go to a large group for some of my doctors (had stage3 when younger) and find that in the large groups I rarely see the doctor him/herself.

[Altavia]

They might. They might also consider that vaccines are not100% effective and sometimes s*** just happens.

When three of us got the flu even though we all had the vaccine we didn’t jump to accuse the Govt and vaccine manufacturers of fraud and we didn’t say, “if only there had been 12 years of testing…”

I would like to find the numbers for vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths but I doubt they are available. Unfortunately, if they were available I’m sure many would misinterpret them so maybe it’s better if they are not.

Lower hospitalization rates have been published broadly.

Here's a study that includes recent hospitalization and death rates.

https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

Background

Vaccination is an important tool for controlling the COVID-19 pandemic. COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective at reducing the risk of severe infections, being hospitalized, and dying from COVID-19.

Approximately 70% of the Washington population ages 6 months and older has completed the primary
COVID-19 vaccine series and over half of the population has received at least one booster dose (shot).
Unvaccinated Washingtonians are at risk of serious outcomes such as being hospitalized and dying due to COVID-19. Because vaccination rates vary across the state between different age and demographic groups, some populations may be more vulnerable to these serious outcomes.

Although COVID-19 vaccines work well to protect against severe infections, being hospitalized, and dying from COVID-19, some people who are vaccinated with the primary series or who have received a booster dose will still get COVID-19 if they are exposed to the virus. As more individuals become vaccinated it is natural to see more vaccinated individuals get COVID-19, and even be hospitalized or die from COVID-19. However, because people who have completed the primary series and received at least one booster dose are much less likely to be hospitalized or die compared to those who are unvaccinated, increasing vaccination rates remains important to protect Washingtonians from severe COVID-19 infections and save lives.

[Byte1]

18 pages. Did the OP get their question answered?

[Bogie Shooter]

18 pages. Did the OP get their question answered?

Yes, OP answered it himself in POST #9
The rest of the posts were posters having their little tit-for-tat striving for one up manship spats.:ohdear:

[JMintzer]

They might. They might also consider that vaccines are not100% effective and sometimes s*** just happens.

When three of us got the flu even though we all had the vaccine we didn’t jump to accuse the Govt and vaccine manufacturers of fraud and we didn’t say, “if only there had been 12 years of testing…”

I would like to find the numbers for vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths but I doubt they are available. Unfortunately, if they were available I’m sure many would misinterpret them so maybe it’s better if they are not.

You can't even get the real number of "covid deaths", since many states have had to "revise" their numbers due to over-reporting... And many are still calling anyone who died with a positive covid test a "covid death"...

[JMintzer]

18 pages. Did the OP get their question answered?

Multiple times. You just had to dig thru the garbage to find the answers...

[Stu from NYC]

Multiple times. You just had to dig thru the garbage to find the answers...

If you would have asked would have lent you a shovel

[Altavia]

You can't even get the real number of "covid deaths", since many states have had to "revise" their numbers due to over-reporting... And many are still calling anyone who died with a positive covid test a "covid death"...

Retrospective analysis of excess mortality rates shows COVID deaths were under reported.

COVID-19 Deaths in the US Continue to Be Undercounted, Research Shows, Despite Claims of ‘Overcounts’ | SPH (https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2023/covid-19-deaths-in-the-us-continue-to-be-undercounted-research-shows-despite-claims-of-overcounts/)

During the first two years of the pandemic – from March 2020 to February 2022 – there were between 996,869 and 1,278,540 excess deaths in the U.S. Among these, 866,187 were recognized as COVID-19 on death certificates.

This means that there were between 130,682 and 412,353 more excess deaths than COVID-19 deaths. The gap between excess deaths and COVID-19 deaths was large in both the first and second years of the pandemic. This suggests that COVID-19 deaths were undercounted even after the pandemic’s chaotic early months

Major studies have also concluded that excess deaths exceeded COVID-19 deaths at the national level during the first two years of the pandemic. And preliminary analyses by our team have found that the gap between excess deaths and COVID-19 deaths has persisted into the third year of the pandemic. This suggests that COVID-19 deaths are still being undercounted

...

Global analysid

The WHO estimates of excess mortality associated with the COVID-19 pandemic | Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05522-2)

[JMintzer]

Retrospective analysis of excess mortality rates shows COVID deaths were under reported.

COVID-19 Deaths in the US Continue to Be Undercounted, Research Shows, Despite Claims of ‘Overcounts’ | SPH (https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2023/covid-19-deaths-in-the-us-continue-to-be-undercounted-research-shows-despite-claims-of-overcounts/)

During the first two years of the pandemic – from March 2020 to February 2022 – there were between 996,869 and 1,278,540 excess deaths in the U.S. Among these, 866,187 were recognized as COVID-19 on death certificates.

This means that there were between 130,682 and 412,353 more excess deaths than COVID-19 deaths. The gap between excess deaths and COVID-19 deaths was large in both the first and second years of the pandemic. This suggests that COVID-19 deaths were undercounted even after the pandemic’s chaotic early months

Major studies have also concluded that excess deaths exceeded COVID-19 deaths at the national level during the first two years of the pandemic. And preliminary analyses by our team have found that the gap between excess deaths and COVID-19 deaths has persisted into the third year of the pandemic. This suggests that COVID-19 deaths are still being undercounted

...

Global analysid

The WHO estimates of excess mortality associated with the COVID-19 pandemic | Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05522-2)

Nothing you just posted refutes a single thing I said...

If you tally garbage information, you get garbage outcome...

[mickey100]

Its impossible to come up with exact numbers, due to methods of reporting, under-reporting in the early stages, etc., but it still appears that at the end of 2020, by conservative estimates there were 2-3 million deaths globally due to Covid. And the annual numbers of flu deaths per year is something like 300,000-600,000. So trying to minimize the number of deaths, or say that Covid is just like the flu, is just utter nonsense. Consider also the people who had Covid who had long term problems that didn't resolve. Also there were indirect deaths due to Covid, since the hospitals were so overwhelmed with Covid cases, that people couldn't get treatment for certain diseases or conditions. And some estimates for Covid related deaths are much, much higher. The bottom line is, it is a disease with serious consequences and we are fortunate to now have the vaccines.

[billethkid]

A discussion of the survivor rates would no doubt yield a different outlook/conclusion.

There have been millions/billions of injections world wide......yet the discussion always seems to hover around the lesser statistics.

These comments are not intended to minimize/demean the significance of the lower incidence numbers impacts on peoples lives.

__________________________________________________

:censored:

[Moesly]

No reasonably healthy person has anything to fear from COVID. The COVID vaccines are no guarantee against COVID and due to their limited testing & being rushed into production, who knows what side effects may appear years later. The vaccines have already have caused some people heart problems and strokes. I have almost 20 years in healthcare as a Paramedic Supervisor, Emergency/ICU RN, and Coroner and I am not an anti-vaxxer, just a anti-COVID vaxxer. I'll just stick with the vaccines that were tested the old fashioned way for 12-15 years before unleashing them on the public.

Couldn't agree more with this statement.

[Pugchief]

Its impossible to come up with exact numbers, due to methods of reporting, under-reporting in the early stages, etc., but it still appears that at the end of 2020, by conservative estimates there were 2-3 million deaths globally due to Covid. And the annual numbers of flu deaths per year is something like 300,000-600,000. So trying to minimize the number of deaths, or say that Covid is just like the flu, is just utter nonsense. Consider also the people who had Covid who had long term problems that didn't resolve. Also there were indirect deaths due to Covid, since the hospitals were so overwhelmed with Covid cases, that people couldn't get treatment for certain diseases or conditions. And some estimates for Covid related deaths are much, much higher. The bottom line is, it is a disease with serious consequences and we are fortunate to now have the vaccines.

Most of the deaths were in the early stages. The virus is weaker now. Using data form 2020 as if it is still pertinent is disingenuous.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

No reasonably healthy person has anything to fear from COVID. The COVID vaccines are no guarantee against COVID and due to their limited testing & being rushed into production, who knows what side effects may appear years later. The vaccines have already have caused some people heart problems and strokes. I have almost 20 years in healthcare as a Paramedic Supervisor, Emergency/ICU RN, and Coroner and I am not an anti-vaxxer, just a anti-COVID vaxxer. I'll just stick with the vaccines that were tested the old fashioned way for 12-15 years before unleashing them on the public.

The flu vaccines are re-formulated every year. So I guess you'll never get a flu shot.

[JMintzer]

The flu vaccines are re-formulated every year. So I guess you'll never get a flu shot.

Nice non-sequitur... One has nothing to do with the other...

[Bill14564]

Nice non-sequitur... One has nothing to do with the other...

Pretty sure the current flu formulation hasn’t been tested for 12 - 15 years as the previous poster required. Seems right on point

[JMintzer]

Pretty sure the current flu formulation hasn’t been tested for 12 - 15 years as the previous poster required. Seems right on point

Yes, but the delivery system of the flu shot HAS been tested for WAAAY more than 12-15 years... It's just the attenuated virus that changes...

So, no... No where near on point...

[threeonemiles@outlook.com]

Keep boosting, baby. Their profits.

[threeonemiles@outlook.com]

Couldn't agree more with this statement.
Mouse No. 1: “Are You Going to Get Vaccinated”
Mouse No. 2: “Are You Crazy, They Haven’t Finished the Tests on Humans”

[Bill14564]

Yes, but the delivery system of the flu shot HAS been tested for WAAAY more than 12-15 years... It's just the attenuated virus that changes...

So, no... No where near on point...

Well, that isn’t what the poster wrote at all.

I’m tired of the whack-a-mole for today.

[JMintzer]

Well, that isn’t what the poster wrote at all.

I’m tired of the whack-a-mole for today.

The poster was comparing the lack of testing of the Covid vax with the "lack of testing" in the flu shots, since they change the flu shot every year...

So yes, it WAS EXACTLY what the poster wrote...

[Stu from NYC]

Seems like many posters think the covid shot should have been tested for many years to make sure it is safe.

Of course the hundreds of thousand of people that would have died waiting for the testing to be completed might not agree.

[Bill14564]

The poster was comparing the lack of testing of the Covid vax with the "lack of testing" in the flu shots, since they change the flu shot every year...

So yes, it WAS EXACTLY what the poster wrote...

The poster who would not take the Covid shot did not mention that his problem was with the delivery system. That poster made a simple statement that he would not take any shot until it had been tested for 12 - 15 years. The flu shot that I will get next month has not been tested for 12 - 15 years. Pick some bits if you must but that is what he wrote and that is the fact of the flu shot each and every year.

Do you suppose he would be happy to accept the J&J version that uses a delivery system that has been around for quite an awhile? You may remember pointing out that THAT vaccine had a risk of GBS four times higher. (though still minuscule)

[Pugchief]

Pretty sure the current flu formulation hasn’t been tested for 12 - 15 years as the previous poster required. Seems right on point

Yes, but the delivery system of the flu shot HAS been tested for WAAAY more than 12-15 years... It's just the attenuated virus that changes...

So, no... No where near on point...

Yep.

If you're referring to my previous post, that's exactly what I meant.

[JMintzer]

The poster who would not take the Covid shot did not mention that his problem was with the delivery system. That poster made a simple statement that he would not take any shot until it had been tested for 12 - 15 years. The flu shot that I will get next month has not been tested for 12 - 15 years. Pick some bits if you must but that is what he wrote and that is the fact of the flu shot each and every year.

Complete nonsense... Changing the attenuated virus (to match what strain is anticipated) is not "starting over", requiring new testing for safety and efficacy...

And what else could he be talking about with the covid virus? The MRNA component IS the delivery system. And THAT was not adequately tested (IMO)...

Do you suppose he would be happy to accept the J&J version that uses a delivery system that has been around for quite an awhile? You may remember pointing out that THAT vaccine had a risk of GBS four times higher. (though still minuscule)

Nice red herring. But you actually proved his point since the J&J vax was removed from the market... Maybe if they had done some more testing...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/ebITvSXYKNvRm/giphy.gif

[JMintzer]

Seems like many posters think the covid shot should have been tested for many years to make sure it is safe.

Of course the hundreds of thousand of people that would have died waiting for the testing to be completed might not agree.

Or, maybe they wouldn't have died... Apparently, your crystal ball works better than mine...

[Bill14564]

Or, maybe they wouldn't have died... Apparently, your crystal ball works better than mine...

No crystal ball just simple observation and data analysis

[JMintzer]

No crystal ball just simple observation and data analysis

Yeah, no...

I could have been the ventilators that were killing people...

Why some doctors are moving away from ventilators for virus patients (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-are-moving-away-ventilators-virus-patients-n1179986)

[billethkid]

I still don't get why the survivor impact of the vaccines is glossed over (OK, ignored).
How many more deaths would there have been if......etc.
Billions of doses administered with no statement of impact.

Why is that?

__________________________________________________ __

:censored::censored:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The poster who would not take the Covid shot did not mention that his problem was with the delivery system. That poster made a simple statement that he would not take any shot until it had been tested for 12 - 15 years. The flu shot that I will get next month has not been tested for 12 - 15 years. Pick some bits if you must but that is what he wrote and that is the fact of the flu shot each and every year.

Do you suppose he would be happy to accept the J&J version that uses a delivery system that has been around for quite an awhile? You may remember pointing out that THAT vaccine had a risk of GBS four times higher. (though still minuscule)

Block or report. Don't feed the [entities that live under bridges, which result in moderation if you use the word].

[Bill14564]

Block or report. Don't feed the [entities that live under bridges, which result in moderation if you use the word].

Yeah. The disbelievers are so wedded to their opinion that they will never see the facts- it would mean accepting they were wrong and the science was right.

I mostly continue to post because 1. bad and misleading data analysis presented as gospel really irritates me; and 2. maybe something I write will be useful to someone out there.

[GoRedSox!]

Seems like many posters think the covid shot should have been tested for many years to make sure it is safe.

Of course the hundreds of thousand of people that would have died waiting for the testing to be completed might not agree.The voice of reason.

[JMintzer]

Yeah. The disbelievers are so wedded to their opinion that they will never see the facts- it would mean accepting they were wrong and the science was right.

Recognizing you have a problem is the first step...

I mostly continue to post because 1. bad and misleading data analysis presented as gospel really irritates me; and 2. maybe something I write will be useful to someone out there.

Still whacking moles?

[JMintzer]

Block or report. Don't feed the [entities that live under bridges, which result in moderation if you use the word].

https://y.yarn.co/b06107ea-1a7d-4800-97a8-268e19e41737_text.gif

[JMintzer]

Seems like many posters think the covid shot should have been tested for many years to make sure it is safe.

Of course the hundreds of thousand of people that would have died waiting for the testing to be completed might not agree.

No, but this, otoh, is disconcerting...

FDA to authorize new Covid boosters without trials in people (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-authorize-new-covid-boosters-data-tests-people-rcna45387)

[Bill14564]

Yeah, no...

I could have been the ventilators that were killing people...

Why some doctors are moving away from ventilators for virus patients (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-are-moving-away-ventilators-virus-patients-n1179986)

Possibly, but they were only killing the Covid patients. The ventilators didn't change, there was no mention a change in demographics of those being put on ventilators, only the disease changed.

What seems more likely is that at the time the article was written, one month into the pandemic, they were just beginning to learn how deadly the virus was. Rather than a 50% survival rate for someone sick enough to be put on a ventilator, with this virus there was only a 20% survival rate.

[Bill14564]

No, but this, otoh, is disconcerting...

FDA to authorize new Covid boosters without trials in people (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-authorize-new-covid-boosters-data-tests-people-rcna45387)

Did you realize that article is a year old and applies to last year's booster? I have heard, though I haven't seen the article myself, that at least Moderna DID test this year's formulation in humans. (did not read the article, do not know the details)

[DARFAP]

No thanks

[JRcorvette]

Both Walgreens and Publix are out of the vaccine!
There are no schedule dates available for Sumter county.
Anybody else running into same issue (on line).

I guess we will try walk in and see what we get (or not).

We are never getting either one of them especially the Covid shots.

[JMintzer]

Possibly, but they were only killing the Covid patients. The ventilators didn't change, there was no mention a change in demographics of those being put on ventilators, only the disease changed.

What seems more likely is that at the time the article was written, one month into the pandemic, they were just beginning to learn how deadly the virus was. Rather than a 50% survival rate for someone sick enough to be put on a ventilator, with this virus there was only a 20% survival rate.

No, they stopped using them as a first line defense when they found out that many were causing more harm than good...

Hence, the massive stockpile of unused ventilators sitting in warehouses, or bering sold off for pennies on the dollar...

[JMintzer]

Did you realize that article is a year old and applies to last year's booster? I have heard, though I haven't seen the article myself, that at least Moderna DID test this year's formulation in humans. (did not read the article, do not know the details)

You have "heard"?, and you don't know the "details"? Well, that's good enough for me, I guess... :shocked:

https://i0.wp.com/photos.smugmug.com/Other/Blog/i-LptRcKW/0/O/whack%20a%20mole.gif

[Bill14564]

You have "heard"?, and you don't know the "details"? Well, that's good enough for me, I guess... :shocked:

https://i0.wp.com/photos.smugmug.com/Other/Blog/i-LptRcKW/0/O/whack%20a%20mole.gif

But in the end that doesn't matter, right? The only thing that changed waa the formulation and that shouldn't need to be tested any more for Covid than it does for flu.

[Bill14564]

No, they stopped using them as a first line defense when they found out that many were causing more harm than good...

Hence, the massive stockpile of unused ventilators sitting in warehouses, or bering sold off for pennies on the dollar...

They may have stopped using them but not before at least a year later. In February, 2021 there was still a shortage.

The stockpile that exists today is as much due to the vaccine lessening the number of patients and the severity of the symptoms as anything else. There is no talk of ventilators being avoided, just that they are no longer needed in the same large numbers.

[JMintzer]

But in the end that doesn't matter, right? The only thing that changed waa the formulation and that shouldn't need to be tested any more for Covid than it does for flu.

Well, since we're still waiting for proper testing of the older covid vaccines, just changing the "formulation" may still be problematic...

[JMintzer]

They may have stopped using them but not before at least a year later. In February, 2021 there was still a shortage.

The stockpile that exists today is as much due to the vaccine lessening the number of patients and the severity of the symptoms as anything else. There is no talk of ventilators being avoided, just that they are no longer needed in the same large numbers.

I already explained why they decreased the use of ventilators...

"Forcing oxygen-enriched air (in some cases, 100% oxygen) into elastic tissue at high pressure and in large volumes can cause leaks, pulmonary edema (swelling), and inflammation, among other damage, contributing to “ventilator-induced injury and increased mortality” in Covid-19, the researchers wrote."

Analysis urges less reliance on ventilators for coronavirus patients - STAT (https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/21/coronavirus-analysis-recommends-less-reliance-on-ventilators/#:~:text=Forcing%20oxygen%2Denriched%20air%20(in,% 2D19%2C%20the%20researchers%20wrote).

And this was known, very early on...

Links matter...

[JMintzer]

They may have stopped using them but not before at least a year later. In February, 2021 there was still a shortage.

The stockpile that exists today is as much due to the vaccine lessening the number of patients and the severity of the symptoms as anything else. There is no talk of ventilators being avoided, just that they are no longer needed in the same large numbers.

August 2020, per the WaPo...

"The U.S. forced major manufacturers to build ventilators. Now they’re piling up unused in a strategic reserve."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/18/ventilators-coronavirus-stockpile/

You see, I don't simply make up statements... I back up my claims...

[Bill14564]

August 2020, per the WaPo...

"The U.S. forced major manufacturers to build ventilators. Now they’re piling up unused in a strategic reserve."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/18/ventilators-coronavirus-stockpile/

You see, I don't simply make up statements... I back up my claims...

Ouch! That one poor little feeling I had left… whatever will I do?

I’m limited in my technology at the moment. Links are forthcoming.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Ouch! That one poor little feeling I had left… whatever will I do?

I’m limited in my technology at the moment. Links are forthcoming.

Here's a link: The US Strategic National Stockpile Ventilators in Coronavirus Disease 2019 - PMC (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7503115/)

The layman's takeaway: the government, in early 2020 (previous administration) ordered 200,000 ventilators. Unfortunately, the people ordering them, didn't clearly understand that different types of machines are made to handle different types of illness, and they just said "hey make whatever, and lots."

But around half of them were useless with COVID. And so - there's a stockpile of unused, unneeded ventilators now - even though there was a shortage of ventilators that could actually help with the first wave of the COVID crisis.

[Stu from NYC]

Here's a link: The US Strategic National Stockpile Ventilators in Coronavirus Disease 2019 - PMC (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7503115/)

The layman's takeaway: the government, in early 2020 (previous administration) ordered 200,000 ventilators. Unfortunately, the people ordering them, didn't clearly understand that different types of machines are made to handle different types of illness, and they just said "hey make whatever, and lots."

But around half of them were useless with COVID. And so - there's a stockpile of unused, unneeded ventilators now - even though there was a shortage of ventilators that could actually help with the first wave of the COVID crisis.

Many years ago was a purchasing manager for a factory. A buyer who has no clue what they are buying and what it will be used for will not last in private industry.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Many years ago was a purchasing manager for a factory. A buyer who has no clue what they are buying and what it will be used for will not last in private industry.

Totally agree. But that's what happens when you don't listen to the experts who you pay to understand this stuff, and throw rolls of paper towels into the crowd instead.

:)

[mraines]

I see doc in November and will get the flu shot then. Pass on the COVID.
Just curious, why are you getting a flu shot and not Covid?

[xcaligirl]

Unfortunately I need to wait a bit before getting the flu and COVID shots, because I'm currently recovering from surgery to remove a malignant melanoma and taking doxycycline as an infection-preventative. I'll check with the dermatologist tomorrow and ask how long after the antibiotics are done, can I get vaccinated.

I'd also like to go back to donating blood. Skin cancer sucks, folks.
I agree that it does suck!! My husband is close to being the 'poster child' for skin cancer. He's had it every year or 6 months since we've been married (43 years). Yes, he has MOHs, beam treatment, etc and is very careful for a month or so and then goes back to old habits. Frustrating but he does bring on some or most of the skin cancer himself. Take care of yourself and hoping for a quick recovery! So happy they found it in time.

[JMintzer]

Here's a link: The US Strategic National Stockpile Ventilators in Coronavirus Disease 2019 - PMC (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7503115/)

The layman's takeaway: the government, in early 2020 (previous administration) ordered 200,000 ventilators. Unfortunately, the people ordering them, didn't clearly understand that different types of machines are made to handle different types of illness, and they just said "hey make whatever, and lots."

But around half of them were useless with COVID. And so - there's a stockpile of unused, unneeded ventilators now - even though there was a shortage of ventilators that could actually help with the first wave of the COVID crisis.

Thank you. Your link proves what I said. There was a shortage in 2019 and 2020... But the orders started decreasing in the summer of 2020...

And of course, they don't mention that the use of ventilators waned early on in the pandemic...

Oh wait, you'll never see this reply...

[JMintzer]

Many years ago was a purchasing manager for a factory. A buyer who has no clue what they are buying and what it will be used for will not last in private industry.

Well, it is the Federal Government, so... All bets are off!

[JMintzer]

Totally agree. But that's what happens when you don't listen to the experts who you pay to understand this stuff, and throw rolls of paper towels into the crowd instead.

:)

Nice political dig...

[Bill14564]

Thank you. Your link proves what I said. There was a shortage in 2019 and 2020... But the orders started decreasing in the summer of 2020...

And of course, they don't mention that the use of ventilators waned early on in the pandemic...

Oh wait, you'll never see this reply...

Did the use wane during the huge spikes in hospitalizations in the winter of 2020, spring of 2021, and winter 2021 into 2022 or after? The links criticizing the surplus were all created in summer 2020, prior to these spikes.

(I would comment on the articles I have found but links are still hard to format)

What is the dispute here anyway; is it that more than enough ventilators were acquired? There were. I believe the ventilator issue arose when someone suggested that while some portion of the 1.6M excess deaths were attributable to Covid (I believe >80% are), some/many/most of those were *caused* by ventilator use. I have come across no evidence of that.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Did the use wane during the huge spikes in hospitalizations in the winter of 2020, spring of 2021, and winter 2021 into 2022 or after? The links criticizing the surplus were all created in summer 2020, prior to these spikes.

(I would comment on the articles I have found but links are still hard to format)

What is the dispute here anyway; is it that more than enough ventilators were acquired? There were. I believe the ventilator issue arose when someone suggested that while some portion of the 1.6M excess deaths were attributable to Covid (I believe >80% are), some/many/most of those were *caused* by ventilator use. I have come across no evidence of that.

I believe some people are complaining that there was a surplus ordered, however they were left abandoned and unused, thereby creating a shortage.

Thing is, half of the ones ordered, were not built to handle the severity of COVID-19. And so - that half went unused, and abandoned in warehouses.

[JMintzer]

Did the use wane during the huge spikes in hospitalizations in the winter of 2020, spring of 2021, and winter 2021 into 2022 or after? The links criticizing the surplus were all created in summer 2020, prior to these spikes.

(I would comment on the articles I have found but links are still hard to format)

What is the dispute here anyway; is it that more than enough ventilators were acquired? There were. I believe the ventilator issue arose when someone suggested that while some portion of the 1.6M excess deaths were attributable to Covid (I believe >80% are), some/many/most of those were *caused* by ventilator use. I have come across no evidence of that.

Yes, they had stopped using the ventilators by then, as they realized they were doing more harm than good (hence the link I posted and that you complained about...)

And please, where do you get your ">80%" number? Thin air?

[JMintzer]

I believe some people are complaining that there was a surplus ordered, however they were left abandoned and unused, thereby creating a shortage.

Thing is, half of the ones ordered, were not built to handle the severity of COVID-19. And so - that half went unused, and abandoned in warehouses.

Nonsense... The initial "shortage" was due to many states letting their old emergency supply stocks rot on the shelves and sit there past their expiration date.

It had zero to do with the wrong ones being ordered/manufactured...

The surplus had everything to do with the docs realizing that ventilators were not the panacea they initially thought, and were doing more harm than good...

[Bill14564]

Yes, they had stopped using the ventilators by then, as they realized they were doing more harm than good (hence the link I posted and that you complained about...)

And please, where do you get your ">80%" number? Thin air?

- 80% matches the CDC count
- 20% matches a gross extrapolation based on a maximum estimate of deaths due to delayed treatment of one type of cancer
- Yeah, thin air


Stopped using ventilators after April 2020?! I would like to see any evidence of that! And yes, I will go back and find the Feb 2022 article about the ventilator shortage being finally over