Hypocrisy of Liberal thinking

[Guest]

Conserv: Unemployment benefits cause more unemployment.
Lib: Bull.. unemployed people want a job, not a handout.
Conserv: There all kinds of jobs out there. They only want easy jobs.
Lib: Bull.. they will take jobs if it is good honest work.

Conserv: We have to kick out all the illegal aliens.
Lib: Bull.. They are valuable members of our society.
Conserv: We have a 10% unemployment rate. Illegals take jobs our citizens need.
Lib: Bull.. Illegals do jobs our citizens will not do.

Conserv: BULL.. you just said on line 4 above our unemployed citizens will take jobs if it is good honest work.
LIb: hey.. the reason they wont take those jobs is because they pay too little.
Conserv: BULL.. they pay too little because there are illegals here who will do them for less, and they are paid in cash with no deductions for entitlements. If there were no illegals, the pay for those jobs would go up and the unemployed would take them, the unemployment rate would go down, and the loss of income to the government would be recovered and that would help the deficit.
Does all of that make too much common sense to you?
Lib: yep

[Guest]

Hey JimJoe,

You are in Iowa and some people in the US may think Iowa is insulated from illegal immigrants and is just full of good, hardworking Americans wanting to do a hard day's work for honest pay.

How about all the meat packing plants in Iowa like in Cedar Rapids and even over in Postville (a kosher one, at that)? The packing plant managers were trafficking in illegal immigrants to work at those plants. The local Iowans would not work at the meat packing or poultry packing plants - so management decided to hire cheap illegal labor.

This is not just a case of the Mexicans coming across the border but is a case of high level corporate management recruiting the Mexicans in Mexico and bringing them to work in Iowa's dirty jobs - that no Iowans will do.

Put the blame where it belongs, JimJoe. I would also place a wager that most of the high level corporate management involved in this illegal trafficking of Mexicans voted REPUBLICAN and probably gave generous contributions to REPUBLICAN candidates.

[Guest]

Conserv: Unemployment benefits cause more unemployment.
Lib: Bull.. unemployed people want a job, not a handout.
Conserv: There all kinds of jobs out there. They only want easy jobs.
Lib: Bull.. they will take jobs if it is good honest work.

Conserv: We have to kick out all the illegal aliens.
Lib: Bull.. They are valuable members of our society.
Conserv: We have a 10% unemployment rate. Illegals take jobs our citizens need.
Lib: Bull.. Illegals do jobs our citizens will not do.

Conserv: BULL.. you just said on line 4 above our unemployed citizens will take jobs if it is good honest work.
LIb: hey.. the reason they wont take those jobs is because they pay too little.
Conserv: BULL.. they pay too little because there are illegals here who will do them for less, and they are paid in cash with no deductions for entitlements. If there were no illegals, the pay for those jobs would go up and the unemployed would take them, the unemployment rate would go down, and the loss of income to the government would be recovered and that would help the deficit.
Does all of that make too much common sense to you?
Lib: yep

Although your premise is correct, lines 2 and 4 could have been stated better.

Unemployment benefits don't cause more unemployment. They may extend the time that one is unemployed.

The unemployed are not looking for easy jobs, just jobs like they just lost. Jobs they are qualified for through experience and or education.

The rest is pretty accurate.

Spoken by one with many experiences with unemployment.

Yoda

[Guest]

Yoda,
You do speak wisely. An unemployed nuclear engineer who previously earned $186,000 per year would be rather foolish to take a job at McDonald's flipping burgers at $7.50 per hour. Yes, it would get him off the unemployment roles but he would earn much less than on unemployment.

He probably could flip that burger with much more accuracy than a high school student but it would still taste the same (maybe).

[Guest]

Yoda,
You do speak wisely. An unemployed nuclear engineer who previously earned $186,000 per year would be rather foolish to take a job at McDonald's flipping burgers at $7.50 per hour. Yes, it would get him off the unemployment roles but he would earn much less than on unemployment.

He probably could flip that burger with much more accuracy than a high school student but it would still taste the same (maybe).

He will never take a job that pays the same or less than 99 weeks of unemployment...and I do not blame him one bit. BUT.. if you keep extending UE benefits, he will never take a low paying job, and worse yet, he may pass up a lower paying job that he should take.

[Guest]

Hey JimJoe,

You are in Iowa and some people in the US may think Iowa is insulated from illegal immigrants and is just full of good, hardworking Americans wanting to do a hard day's work for honest pay.

How about all the meat packing plants in Iowa like in Cedar Rapids and even over in Postville (a kosher one, at that)? The packing plant managers were trafficking in illegal immigrants to work at those plants. The local Iowans would not work at the meat packing or poultry packing plants - so management decided to hire cheap illegal labor.

This is not just a case of the Mexicans coming across the border but is a case of high level corporate management recruiting the Mexicans in Mexico and bringing them to work in Iowa's dirty jobs - that no Iowans will do.

Put the blame where it belongs, JimJoe. I would also place a wager that most of the high level corporate management involved in this illegal trafficking of Mexicans voted REPUBLICAN and probably gave generous contributions to REPUBLICAN candidates.

SORRY but you are wrong. My brother in law worked HARD for Iowa Beef Packers for years. My cousin worked HARD for years for Hormels Beef. They never quit because of the hard work. My sister in law is being laid off because the Frigidaire plant in Webster City is being moved to Mexico.
Americans will do the hard work. They just want a fair paycheck. The reason those jobs are being lost is because illegals will do the word CHEAPER and ILLEGALLY.. and our government encourages companies to take those jobs overseas.... all so foreigners can do the work cheaper and the international corporations can make more profit.
I think it is an ABOMINATION that liberals are willing to say hard working blue collar AMERICAN workers are not willing to do hard work.. just so they can justify illegals. It is NOT true and my family (INCLUDING ME-- I can list the jobs I did growing up that illegals are now doing) and We RESENT IT!!!
JJ

[Guest]

And one more thing..
Are you serious that Americans will not do that kind of work that illegals do? You gotta be kidding.
Iowan farmers and kids have been taking care of their own livestock for generations.
It is the corporate farms that are hiring the illegals.. and that cheap ILLEGAL labor is another reason the family farms are going broke.
Tell my relatives who were farmers about their unwillingness to that work.
Liberals have a lot of nerve saying that.
Iowa has tons of illegals. They do farm work.. so do Iowans ( I did it) . They do roofing.. so do Iowans ( I did it). They do construction. ( So did I.. and after retiring this year I redid my own foundation, and have remodeled completely two rooms in my home.) They do factory work. So do Iowans. ( I worked in several including Iowa Paint.)
Iowans will do any work an illegal will do. We do it honestly, get paid above board, pay into social security, medicare, unemployment, state, local, and federal taxes. All we want is a fair wage and we do not want to compete with workers who do not pay social security, medicare, unemployment, state, local, and federal taxes... and frequently, have no car license, car insurance, medical insurance, and therefore endanger my financial future when they crash into my car, or run to the emergency room and get free care, baby deliveries, and it gets billed to my insurance. There are so many examples of this mess I could go on and on.
PLEASE WAKE UP..

[Guest]

So, what you are saying, Jim, is that the Iowans will take the jobs that Mexicans are working - but for a much higher wage?

You also said the corporate farms hire the Mexicans. Whose fault is that? Once again, I would bet the owners of those corporate farms are REPUBLICANS who have contributed large sums of money to REPUBLICAN (or maybe TEA PARTY) PACs and candidates.

Your family did good work for the meat packers but NOW it is not the Iowan who is working those meat packing plants. That was in years gone by that the workers were Iowans. Now, it is the Mexican who works for the lower wages that the CORPORATE owners pay.

Look up Postville, Iowa on your computer and tell me what happened there with the meat packing plant - and whose fault it was that the Mexicans came to Postville.

Some Iowa companies have moved to Mexico. That was due to NAFTA. Which president of the US created NAFTA? It was Bush the First (gee, he was a REPUBLICAN, wasn't he?).

Do not demonize "liberals" for all that has created so much illegal immigration. Look to your own party as well as corporate greed.

Do you want to round up all the illegal immigrants and ship them en masse back to their country of origin or what? Once again, look at what happened to Postville, Iowa after the Immigration agents rounded up 450 in an early morning raid. Postville has gone from a thriving community to a dusty spot that is poverty stricken - with Iowans.

[Guest]

"Why! Why! Why can't there be peace in the valley!"

[Guest]

So, what you are saying, Jim, is that the Iowans will take the jobs that Mexicans are working - but for a much higher wage?

You also said the corporate farms hire the Mexicans. Whose fault is that? Once again, I would bet the owners of those corporate farms are REPUBLICANS who have contributed large sums of money to REPUBLICAN (or maybe TEA PARTY) PACs and candidates.

Your family did good work for the meat packers but NOW it is not the Iowan who is working those meat packing plants. That was in years gone by that the workers were Iowans. Now, it is the Mexican who works for the lower wages that the CORPORATE owners pay.

Look up Postville, Iowa on your computer and tell me what happened there with the meat packing plant - and whose fault it was that the Mexicans came to Postville.

Some Iowa companies have moved to Mexico. That was due to NAFTA. Which president of the US created NAFTA? It was Bush the First (gee, he was a REPUBLICAN, wasn't he?).

Do not demonize "liberals" for all that has created so much illegal immigration. Look to your own party as well as corporate greed.

Do you want to round up all the illegal immigrants and ship them en masse back to their country of origin or what? Once again, look at what happened to Postville, Iowa after the Immigration agents rounded up 450 in an early morning raid. Postville has gone from a thriving community to a dusty spot that is poverty stricken - with Iowans.

I am a Tea Party supporter. Please do not justify illegal immigration by saying it is my fault because fat cats and Republicans allow it to happen. If they break the law by hiring illegals, LOCK THEM UP. I do not support their position either. They like illegal immigration because they can make more money using cheap labor. They also supported the 1 trillion dollar Stimulus 2 give away tax deal this week. I do not support them.

Conservatives do not support illegals. Liberals do. That is my point. I did not mention Democrats nor did I mention Republicans in this post. Many blue collar working Democrats agree with me. We used to call american workers who take jobs like illegals, SCABS. They would take our jobs for low pay after we had developed the company, the techniques, and the community.
After all of this discussion, do you now admit justifying illegal workers by saying they do work that Americans will not do is just plain wrong?
For every illegal taking care of hogs, I can drive 5 miles from my home and introduce you to a family farmer and their children who do the same work. Same thing with hotel workers, factory workers, roofers, etc etc. It just is not true and it is slanderous to our American workers to say it justify some illegal immigration. They will do the work for fair pay.. but they cannot compete with illegals who cheat the tax system, the social security and medicare system, the medical system, school system.. etc etc. I still say.. shame on you.
JJ

[Guest]

"Why! Why! Why can't there be peace in the valley!"

'cause it aint a valley.

Yoda

[Guest]

So, what you are saying, Jim, is that the Iowans will take the jobs that Mexicans are working - but for a much higher wage?

You also said the corporate farms hire the Mexicans. Whose fault is that? Once again, I would bet the owners of those corporate farms are REPUBLICANS who have contributed large sums of money to REPUBLICAN (or maybe TEA PARTY) PACs and candidates.

Your family did good work for the meat packers but NOW it is not the Iowan who is working those meat packing plants. That was in years gone by that the workers were Iowans. Now, it is the Mexican who works for the lower wages that the CORPORATE owners pay.

Look up Postville, Iowa on your computer and tell me what happened there with the meat packing plant - and whose fault it was that the Mexicans came to Postville.

Some Iowa companies have moved to Mexico. That was due to NAFTA. Which president of the US created NAFTA? It was Bush the First (gee, he was a REPUBLICAN, wasn't he?).

Do not demonize "liberals" for all that has created so much illegal immigration. Look to your own party as well as corporate greed.

Do you want to round up all the illegal immigrants and ship them en masse back to their country of origin or what? Once again, look at what happened to Postville, Iowa after the Immigration agents rounded up 450 in an early morning raid. Postville has gone from a thriving community to a dusty spot that is poverty stricken - with Iowans.

So I guess you're saying that American citizens should accept the sub-poverty level wages that an illegal immigrant would accept to do the same job.

This is the new position of the Liberals? I would have thought liberals attributed that sort of economic slavery to right-wingers. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the liberals love of defending illegals outweighs their compassion for the American family and the American dream.

Also, check your history if you like, but NAFTA was passed and signed by PRESIDENT CLINTON. In fact in order to get the votes to get NAFTA passed, newly elected PRESIDENT CLINTON made a whirlwind national tour to strong-arm the acquisition of the deciding votes to ram through NAFTA, so HE COULD SIGN IT INTO LAW. This after running for President with the platform promise of defeating it.

So you're saying that all the arrests for illegal activity in the Pottsville raid, including conspiracy, document fraud, identity theft, CHILD LABOR, harboring illegals for profit, bank fraud, mail and wire fraud and money laundering were probably OK with you as it was providing work for poor misunderstood illegals.

The plant owners were convicted and put in jail for all those myriad crimes. The illegal immigrants were deported back to their own country. Thus, the company fell. Is the position of the Liberal that in spite of all these illegal activities, the crimes should be ignored because ................. what?

The Liberals and the Democrats usually support the Unions, so I can't get my head around the convoluted thinking in your post. Are you for hard working American families?; for the illegals supplanting those families?; for the unionized worker organizing for a better life?; for the maintaining of illegal businesses for the support of illegal workers?

Are you thinking this through? Whose side are you on?

Maybe if we were all on an untouchable government pension, we could be so cavalier in our thinking.

[Guest]

Here's the conundrum.

We want products at the lowest possible prices. In order to serve us those products, corporations move jobs to where the leabor is cheaper. Now, this is clouded by the fact that the corporations first loyalty is to the *shareholder* and maximing THEIR returns.

Illegal immigrants are not taking our jobs since nobody is out there picking lettuce who just came off the unemployment line.

Legal nationals of other countries ARE providing a labor source cheap enough so that the companies are willing to go through the expense of moving operations in order to exploit that labor pool.

In a sense, you could say that it is OUR desire for $3 Happy Meals that drives jobs down to Mexico.

And to comment on one aspect of the unemployment thing, let me give you the perspective of someone who's been on it in the past.

I will never forget back in the 1980s when I was on unemployment and desperately looking for work in my field. One week, I went into the unemployment office and fileld out the form that, back then, you had to fill out to show you were looking for work. they noticed one company listed three times (I'd had three contacts with them and I was supposed to list all contacts). They argued with me that I wasn't looking hard enough so they were going to suspend my benefits. I appealed and they continued my benefits, threatening me that, if my appeal failed, I would have to pay them back. Two days later I was offered a job by that company. I never heard from unemployment about that matter again.

By staying in my field, I have paid back FAR more than I ever took out and 'the system' has profited from me NOT flipping burgers.

By the same token, my cousin has skills in IT. She lost her job due to mergers and offshoring. As she had a mother with Alzheimer's she was forced into taking a job with a supermarket some 6 years ago. She's now trapped in that 'world' as no tech company will touch her, regardless of the fact that she has the same basic skills. Every time I see her, I have thoughts along the lines of "there but for the grace of god...."

[Guest]

Well, Richie, I am glad to see you checked your Internet for history but failed to see that NAFTA, while it was signed into law by Clinton, was the brainchild of Bush the First.

Secondly, it is Postville, Iowa - not Pottstown. That is in Pennsylvania and is part of a Groucho Marx joke.

Would you rather pay $18,000 for a car assembled in Mexico or $42,000 for the very same car assembled in Detroit by union workers?

'Nuff said. I am not reading or writing any more on this thread. Speak to the hand.:beer3:

[Guest]

Well, Richie, I am glad to see you checked your Internet for history but failed to see that NAFTA, while it was signed into law by Clinton, was the brainchild of Bush the First.

Secondly, it is Postville, Iowa - not Pottstown. That is in Pennsylvania and is part of a Groucho Marx joke.

Would you rather pay $18,000 for a car assembled in Mexico or $42,000 for the very same car assembled in Detroit by union workers?

'Nuff said. I am not reading or writing any more on this thread. Speak to the hand.:beer3:

Big deal, you caught my typo of Pottsville instead of Po"s"tville. Gee; that negates all the lawlessness in Iowa.

It WAS Bill Clinton who twisted arms to pass NAFTA and you CANNOT deny that. It became his bill at that point. Maybe Bush 1 gave him the gun, but HE shot it after promising not to. Enough said.

Your distain for unionized workers is liberal hypocrisy which is perfect for this post on LIBERAL HYPOCRISY.

Do you have the same distain for PUBLIC SECTOR unions, like the SEIU, who are the PARASITES of the nations budget and economy?

You say you won't read this thread again; that fine. There's not much you can say anyway.

[Guest]

So, what you are saying, Jim, is that the Iowans will take the jobs that Mexicans are working - but for a much higher wage?

You also said the corporate farms hire the Mexicans. Whose fault is that? Once again, I would bet the owners of those corporate farms are REPUBLICANS who have contributed large sums of money to REPUBLICAN (or maybe TEA PARTY) PACs and candidates.

Your family did good work for the meat packers but NOW it is not the Iowan who is working those meat packing plants. That was in years gone by that the workers were Iowans. Now, it is the Mexican who works for the lower wages that the CORPORATE owners pay.

Look up Postville, Iowa on your computer and tell me what happened there with the meat packing plant - and whose fault it was that the Mexicans came to Postville.

Some Iowa companies have moved to Mexico. That was due to NAFTA. Which president of the US created NAFTA? It was Bush the First (gee, he was a REPUBLICAN, wasn't he?).

Do not demonize "liberals" for all that has created so much illegal immigration. Look to your own party as well as corporate greed.

Do you want to round up all the illegal immigrants and ship them en masse back to their country of origin or what? Once again, look at what happened to Postville, Iowa after the Immigration agents rounded up 450 in an early morning raid. Postville has gone from a thriving community to a dusty spot that is poverty stricken - with Iowans.

Tbugs, I understand what you are saying. In order to save money we should contract most of the VA paperwork to providers in India and do most of the work in this country with people from India on a two to five year Visa. We can look beyond India to other countries, but our emphasis must remind the same, good treatment for our veterans at the lowest possible cost. It's time for VA pensions to go.