Zone 9A or 9B? = Center of ZONE 9!

[Ozzello]

I finally expanded into doing design/install work in the "newer" Villages this year,(south of 44) and am seeing a LOT of zone 10 trees. People are being told that because the NEW section is 9B, not 9A, that they can plant foxtail palms, Christmas palms, Areca palms and the like.
I assure you (as a native with 40 years experience in nursery work in this area) this is NOT THE CASE.

If you look on the internet at USDA maps, I see many new looking maps showing 9A as a very small pocket of North Lake county and further north. But CORRECTLY the older maps show the area, as running SOUTH OF TAMPA on the western half of the state, and being much, much larger.

Either way, you are still in the CENTER of zone 9, with AVERAGE LOWEST TEMP being around 26 degrees.
Yes, Last winter was AVERAGE, leaving many dead and half dead zone 10 palms in its wake.

If your potential Landscape designer tells you those zone 10 trees are fine, you might want to look for someone with more integrity or knowledge (The results for you are the same). There are a few of us with knowledge experience and integrity, though some days I think less than a few.

Even if you buy into being in zone 9B, the plants/trees that are showing zones 11 through-9B, THOSE TREES would be ONLY FOR..... zone 9B that is ALMOST ZONE 10. Way south of you.

Good luck folks, Oz

[Ozzello]

Important to note,
Your warranty on those trees, likely NOT INCLUDED:

- Acts of God and customer neglect.

What this means is:
No matter what happened to that tree, we don't have to replace it because if it wasn't YOUR FAULT, it was God that did it.

[MrChip72]

Master gardener here. The USDA maps are not kept up to date on a yearly basis. Usually every 5-10 years at best. The climate is changing in some places faster than others like Florida primarily due to the Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico warming slightly.

I would not get too hung up on zone 9a vs 9b and things like that. You can very often grow things 1-2 zones below their range as long as decent care is taken to the tree or shrub. Basically if you take care of what you're growing, they will be resilient enough to handle a cold spell.

When they say something is labelled for zone 10a, it doesn't mean that it will die if grown in 9a for example, it's really just an optimal suggestion.

[Ozzello]

That may be true for the other zones, but not for zone 9. When something is tagged zone 10 and warmer, it EXACTLY means, it will die from the cold in the next zone up. Yes a very few of those SUB Tropicals can make it through our milder winters, but over time, those average winters, and harder winters will arrive and take them out.

The changes in the northern zones (8 and lower) you can cheat to the north a zone or 2, but not here, where we ride that line between Temperate and Tropical.

To freeze or not to freeze... it isn't a question. When dealing with zone 10 plants, it is NOT to freeze, and zone 9 freezes. Unless by "care" you mean, HEAT the tree (no I didn't say cover) or build a greenhouse over it. (That was commonplace during the winter for people with tropicals in the yard just 2 decades ago) Your crotons, areca palms etc, are going to die if they freeze... that is why they are called TROPICAL.

I have a lot of respect for the Master Gardener's garden club folks, but let's not pretend that the moniker isn't more about participation in functions and donating a bit of time to the club. Compared to a college degree or actual masters in horticulture, it is just a club with not much of a scholastic requirement.

[MrChip72]

That may be true for the other zones, but not for zone 9. When something is tagged zone 10 and warmer, it EXACTLY means, it will die from the cold in the next zone up.

No that's completely incorrect, the specific definition of hardiness zones are as follows: "Hardiness zones are geographical areas divided up by climate that can be used to determine where different plants will grow best." Apparently, you're also unaware that Master Gardeners are involved in data collection that determines the actual hardiness zones for many areas.

I have a lot of respect for the Master Gardener's garden club folks, but let's not pretend that the moniker isn't more about participation in functions and donating a bit of time to the club. Compared to a college degree or actual masters in horticulture, it is just a club with not much of a scholastic requirement.

You clearly have little respect master gardeners or much of an understanding of their educational requirements.

It's not a gardening club where you can just sign up and join. You have to past a rigorous entrance exam among other things and only a limited number are permitted to join.

It involves usually 60 hours of education upfront including college level courses, and then continuous education every year. That's not including the fact many master gardener groups are extremely hard to be admitted into in the first place, many requiring a high level knowledge of botany. We also have volunteer requirements on delivering horticultural education to the public.

[photo1902]

Sounds like a plug for a business disguised as a word of warning

[nick demis]

I have always used plants rated for 1 zone north of where I have lived. NEVER had a problem.

[Happydaz]

I have played around with planting zone 9B and zone 10 plants like Thai plants, Crepe jasmine trees, yellow shrimp plants, etc.. and you can get way with it in most winters. The day comes, however when the temperature dips into the low twenties and all these plants die to the ground. Some may come up again, but they are severely set back. Zone hardiness does not mean the plant will die every winter, but it will get hit at some point. Yes, you can have fun with warmer microclimates, next to the house, by the front door etc., but they still can get frozen there. I have gardened here (near 466A, zone 9A) for over ten years. Experience trumps book knowledge.

[chrisinva]

Mr Chip72, thanks for your well-phrased & concise explanation of MG requirements. I was debating how to respond to the multiple incorrect comments of Ozzello but you did it for me.

I’ve got 2 Master Gardener designations, one from Kansas & one from Virginia. Same kinds of programs in those states – significant educational requirements, testing & volunteer time before you are awarded the designation.

A common expression I heard in KS, VA & now FL is “Right plant, right location” meaning that you’ve got to plant your greenery in the right location. It’s absolutely true & the only thing that guides me in plant selection & plant location, besides researching the IFAS site online.

Trial & error is sometimes the best method of planting. I’ve got spider plants growing outside year-round in front of our north facing lanai. They are sheltered from the sun & cold/frost by the (developer planted) Viburnum Suspensum . I’ve got cactus that need partial sun successfully growing nearby.
Suggestion - google the plant name & ifas to research the plant – example: “Viburnum Suspensum ifas”. ifas = University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences which is the extension service we pay for with our taxes. They provide excellent descriptions, planting suggestions. And don't expect 100% success as there are sooo many variables. It's the journey, not the destination.

[Chi-Town]

I can tell you that 2 or three freezing nights start the clock for Queen Palms' demise

[Happydaz]

Mr Chip72, thanks for your well-phrased & concise explanation of MG requirements. I was debating how to respond to the multiple incorrect comments of Ozzello but you did it for me.


What incorrect comments did Ozzello make? He sounds more knowledgeable than the Master Gardeners who are posting on here. Saying the meaning of planting zones is based on where a particular plant will do well is not the whole story. Yes proper use of planting zone information will help your plants thrive but they will also help your plants SURVIVE. Foxtail palms and Christmas Palms will die here in zone 9. (Like Ozzello said) No doubt about it! In my neighborhood all the foxtail palms planted in two different yards died this past winter. They had made it for a number of years but not this one. As the county agent (and Master Gardener Coordinator) says the Villages is mostly in 9A and maybe a small part 9B. You probably should talk to her about planting zones. I don’t think it is a good idea to come on a forum and say you are a Master Gardener and disagree with a professional landscaper.

[MrChip72]

What incorrect comments did Ozzello make? He sounds more knowledgeable than the Master Gardeners who are posting on here. Saying the meaning of planting zones is based on where a particular plant will do well is not the whole story. Yes proper use of planting zone information will help your plants thrive but they will also help your plants SURVIVE. Foxtail palms and Christmas Palms will die here in zone 9. (Like Ozzello said) No doubt about it! In my neighborhood all the foxtail palms planted in two different yards died this past winter. They had made it for a number of years but not this one. As the county agent (and Master Gardener Coordinator) says the Villages is mostly in 9A and maybe a small part 9B. You probably should talk to her about planting zones. I don’t think it is a good idea to come on a forum and say you are a Master Gardener and disagree with a professional landscaper.

It seems like Ozello doesn't fully understand that USDA climate zones can vary widely depending on what vendor you buy your trees from. Many of the same varieties of trees like palms for example are labelled as 9a, 9b or 10a even though they're the exact same tree. It's just a marketing ploy for the vendor selling it as a 9a tree to sell more. There's zero Federal laws that would stop a vendor from labelling a citrus tree to grow in zone 5 even though it would have zero chance of surviving the winter in a zone 5 area in Minnesota for example.

Also the climate zones continuously change, plus the maps are just a rough approximation of each zone, and not to mention the effect of microclimates that actually make a significant difference in some cases.

[Normal]

We have several tropical plants that cruised right through last year’s hard freeze without being covered. No worries here south of 44. Bring it on!

[Ozzello]

I have extensive knowledge of the program. The only thing I found "intensive" was the volunteer hours.

And you can dress it up any way you want, but there were plenty enough dead foxtails, christmas palms and arecas down there in the 'new' south end of TV from last years very average winter, to back up my statement, as well as the information given by the real experts in the field, like Betrock's et al.

I know MG club has told people over and over that mature queen palms are dying from the cold in this area... though that hasn't happened here since we lost around 3% to the 100 year freeze back in 1985. More likely it is the premature deflowering of the seed pods over time killing the queens.
You can gather all the data you want to dispute the facts, but they are still facts.

[Bogie Shooter]

This is how roundabout threads usually start.:1rotfl:

[Ozzello]

We have several tropical plants that cruised right through last year’s hard freeze without being covered. No worries here south of 44. Bring it on!

Tropicals? Or SUB tropicals? Some classified as SUB tropical make it through, but if a tropical lives through a freeze, it isn't a tropical.

[Ozzello]

Word of mouth, corrupts and distorts the truth. Old wive's tales, like "don't water in the sunlight or your plants will burn" stemmed from people using scalding hot water sitting in a garden hose. Queen palms dying from cold in this area is another example.
Having studied under multi-generational central FL nurserymen, studied horticulture in high school and college programs, as well as continued education over the 4 decades through expert publications (Books with bibliographies, not web sites) and just paying attention to what happens in this industry in this area, I often hear incorrect "word of mouth" become so common, people take it as fact.
Most of the time, fake landscape designers, or people with a chip on their shoulder about palm trees are the beginning of the lies that spread.
I post on here as a public service, when I see that those lies and half-truths are gaining a foothold with many unaware newcomers, who would prefer to know the truth. I really don't care if you publish a popular blog on the internet about horticulture, or even own a nursery... I will serve the public interest.
Yes, I own a business, but I don't plug it here. WIth the integrity of my designs, that last decades instead of a couple years or 5 ( like most of the rest of the landscapes out here) ... I don't need to plug my business, I have reputation.

[Ozzello]

It seems like Ozello doesn't fully understand that USDA climate zones can vary widely depending on what vendor you buy your trees from. Many of the same varieties of trees like palms for example are labelled as 9a, 9b or 10a even though they're the exact same tree. It's just a marketing ploy for the vendor selling it as a 9a tree to sell more. There's zero Federal laws that would stop a vendor from labelling a citrus tree to grow in zone 5 even though it would have zero chance of surviving the winter in a zone 5 area in Minnesota for example.

Also the climate zones continuously change, plus the maps are just a rough approximation of each zone, and not to mention the effect of microclimates that actually make a significant difference in some cases.

What I understand, is there was widespread dying of foxtails, arecas and christmas palms last year... from a very AVERAGE winter, and people should know the truth.

[Bjeanj]

I have been reading this thread with fascination. Seems like it’s turning into a Master Gardener vs. an experienced landscape gardener, and someone is getting their nose out of joint (I won’t say who). I am an experienced “digger in the garden” who relies on Master Gardeners knowledge to plant my garden so my flowers don’t die. I also check out plants in other yards to see what thrives. That’s all I know.

[Ozzello]

In my 40 years of horticultural experience and education, in this region... I have run into a LOT of conflicting information between the Master gardener ( often hearsay I admit) and the published works of horticulturists, with Master's degrees. Granted it may be a little over a lot of years, and most of the time, is the same mistaken opinions that pop up every 5 or 10 years as facts.
Most of the blame should go to the many uneducated so-called landscape "salespeople" chasing a fast buck and willing to state with confidence "facts" that help them make a sale, over any intentional mis step from the Master Gardeners.

I am sure there are many educated horticulturists Master Gardeners here in TV. And plethora's of good information being parlayed to other members and friends. Unfortunate ( but not thankless) is this task I have taken on of only addressing the misinformation that occasionally worms its way into the mainstream knowledge base.

[Bjeanj]

Apparently the USDA just updated the plant hardiness zone map, the first in more than a decade.
USDA's plant hardiness zone map shows half the country has shifted : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213600629/-it-feels-like-im-not-crazy-gardeners-arent-surprised-as-usda-updates-key-map?utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2Ic55uItUCrjbyWwOzn4QIP6M1ecqkiny8qjkmM NcXIOLoVzj5VZnQ30w_aem_AdrXDO0A_PkDF-P73STeGePcDkMU2uBBKsSgcYQB9eyKP2R0LQhwAteMswS2o0VQ t3s)

[Normal]

If you are iffy on some plants there are some excellent palm choices. The high plateau coconut palm is safe for the area. Sylvester’s and Bismarck palms are also safe. I have also seen oranges make it through last year’s heavy frost, but in those cases they may have been salvaged by micro climates.

[Topspinmo]

If you are iffy on some plants there are some excellent palm choices. The high plateau coconut palm is safe for the area. Sylvester’s and Bismarck palms are also safe. I have also seen oranges make it through last year’s heavy frost, but in those cases they may have been salvaged by micro climates.


I live far north of villages, it got down to 24 to 27 degrees 3 night in row. IMO my in area the was way beyond heavy frost. Guess depends on which end of the villages you live?

[Arctic Fox]

While the zone categorization is a useful guideline, individual gardens may vary.

Are you next to a large body of water, which can moderate temperatures?
In a frost pocket?
Exposed to winds from the north (wind chill can bring the temperature down considerably)?
Do you wrap your plants when sub-freezing temperatures are forecast?

A good way to assess what will and won't survive is to look at what your long-term resident neighbors have been growing.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

My flower bed has both vinca and impatiens (they look very similar but have distinct differences). Impatiens are considered perennials at zone 10 and 11, but are annuals at zone 9 and colder and have to be replanted each year.

Except - I haven't ever planted them. The only plants I've planted have been the potted plants - oregano, basil, spike lavender, lemon thyme, rosemary, and a couple of flower bulbs that I forget what they're called. The lemon thyme was supposedly the hardiest of the bunch in our zone, and it died last winter and never recovered. The basil finally died last month. You can't kill oregano, so obviously it's doing just fine after I tried to intentionally kill it last potting season because it was suffering from root rot. I did successfully kill the rosemary bush because it had outgrown its ENORMOUS pot and had rooted into the flower bed through the hole at the bottom of the pot. That's where the oregano is now. The rosemary bush had grown to be over 4' high, it was a monster.

A squirrel gave me some "elephant ear" leaves and they look pretty snazzy in the garden.

What do I do to maintain all this? Not a damned thing. I planted the stuff in the pots, gave it a good soaking, and left it all to nature. Everything growing in the bed itself was either there when I moved in, or grew as a direct result of my neglect. I weed it when I'm inspired, harvest when I need herbs for cooking. That's pretty much it.

[Summerhouse]

I saw MANY of the plants you named dead after last winter.
Some landscapers are either not correct in their knowledge or going ahead and planting what homeowners ask for despite knowing they will not survive (people can be demanding).
Just riding around in our golf cart I couldn’t even count how many dead ‘Christmas Palms’ I passed.

[mtdjed]

While the zone categorization is a useful guideline, individual gardens may vary.

Are you next to a large body of water, which can moderate temperatures?
In a frost pocket?
Exposed to winds from the north (wind chill can bring the temperature down considerably)?
Do you wrap your plants when sub-freezing temperatures are forecast?

A good way to assess what will and won't survive is to look at what your long-term resident neighbors have been growing.

I like to use Ixora as a decorative plant. Ixora shrubs I have bought have tags stated that Cold hardiness is 40 to 30 F. They also state that they are non-hardy in zones 1-9. Plants I have survived of my house best on the east side. They get the early sun. These plants have survived for over 10 years. In cold years there is some winter kill, but it is easily cut out. Southern exposure plants do less well in cold years. The winter kill gets most of the exposed stock. There is life left in the roots and I have left a few continue but the growth is slow and spotty and not pretty. Due to the relatively low cost, I replace when needed.

My experience would agree with the tag statement that the plants are not hardy in Zone 9. Yes, some can survive well. Location makes a difference.

I would think that the survival rate in Zone 10 would be 100 %. But unusual freezes and frosts could take a toll .

[Ozzello]

Apparently the USDA just updated the plant hardiness zone map, the first in more than a decade.
USDA's plant hardiness zone map shows half the country has shifted : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213600629/-it-feels-like-im-not-crazy-gardeners-arent-surprised-as-usda-updates-key-map?utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2Ic55uItUCrjbyWwOzn4QIP6M1ecqkiny8qjkmM NcXIOLoVzj5VZnQ30w_aem_AdrXDO0A_PkDF-P73STeGePcDkMU2uBBKsSgcYQB9eyKP2R0LQhwAteMswS2o0VQ t3s)

Not sure on the rest of the country, but this map for FL isn't different at all from what I said in this post. And if memory is correct, Florida is not different from the map prior to whatever changes supposedly happened.
Weather cycles are best described as 10 year, 25, 50 and 100 year cycles. Remember, the people wanting to sell plants to you, don't warrantee Acts of God... and that is weather.