Will our Executive Courses get a course and slope rating in 2024?

[CTKID]

Florida State Golf Association announced:

Starting in 2024, The World Handicap System™ has approved lowering the minimum length for a tee to be issued a Course Rating and Slope Rating to 1,500 yards for 18 holes or 750 yards for 9 holes.

This will allow our Executive Course rounds to be entered into the handicap system.

Anyone know if our Executive Courses will be rated? Thanks.

[Hape2Bhr]

If they do, I certainly hope they use more experienced course raters than those who flubbed the ratings on the championship courses.

[BrianL99]

If they do, I certainly hope they use more experienced course raters than those who flubbed the ratings on the championship courses.

What's wrong with the Ratings on the Championship courses?

& FSGA does the Ratings and the raters are usually very experienced.

[Keefelane66]

There just dumbing down the sport of golf!

[Topspinmo]

Want know why you rate/rank enter tournaments with no handicaps.

[Hape2Bhr]

What's wrong with the Ratings on the Championship courses?

& FSGA does the Ratings and the raters are usually very experienced.

They are far too low rated in difficulty. I usually play the white tees (sometimes blue). Were I to score 72 every round from the white tees, at virtually every course in TV, that would still equate to a 6 to 8 handicap. That is ridiculous. I 78 recently at Glenview equated to 11.6.

It one reason teams from TV who compete in tournaments with others from around the state tend to do very well. The handicaps here are bogus.

[golfing eagles]

They are far too low rated in difficulty. I usually play the white tees (sometimes blue). Were I to score 72 every round from the white tees, at virtually every course in TV, that would still equate to a 6 to 8 handicap. That is ridiculous. I 78 recently at Glenview equated to 11.6.

It one reason teams from TV who compete in tournaments with others from around the state tend to do very well. The handicaps here are bogus.

I'm forced to disagree. First of all, if you shot 72 from the whites, you'd probably be a 5 handicap based on our course ratings. I just finished playing Glenview 1/2 hour ago, and likewise shot 78---from the whites since I was playing with friends. The rating is 65.6 and the length is only 5599 so that looks about right.
Also, the WHS is based on a theoretical course roughly equivalent to our black tees or 7200 yds, so if you shoot 72's from there, you'll be a 0.

But back to the subject of this thread---rating courses of 750 yds----now that's BOGUS On the other had, all you need to carry is a 60 degree and a putter----or do they require you to carry more clubs on these "executive" courses?

[dewilson58]

If they do, I certainly hope they use more experienced course raters than those who flubbed the ratings on the championship courses.

I kinda kno what U R saying.

From 10,000 feet, TV champion courses are very easy given their slopes.
Playing from the golds and blacks, I should not be scoring like I do..........it's fun, jus not accurate.
I've played many courses all over the USA and comparatively speaking.....TV is easy.
Maybe it's no rough, no trees, wide fairways, so flat....but jus not worthy of their slope numbers.

:posting:

[Jayhawk]

They are far too low rated in difficulty. I usually play the white tees (sometimes blue). Were I to score 72 every round from the white tees, at virtually every course in TV, that would still equate to a 6 to 8 handicap. That is ridiculous. I 78 recently at Glenview equated to 11.6.

It one reason teams from TV who compete in tournaments with others from around the state tend to do very well. The handicaps here are bogus.

First World Problems.

:gc:

[BrianL99]

They are far too low rated in difficulty. I usually play the white tees (sometimes blue). Were I to score 72 every round from the white tees, at virtually every course in TV, that would still equate to a 6 to 8 handicap. That is ridiculous. I 78 recently at Glenview equated to 11.6.



There's nothing wrong with the Course Ratings. If you're playing the White Tees, you're playing from about 5500 yards on most TV courses. That's going to give you a rating around 65 and with the width of TV Fairways, the Slope is going to be right around "standard" (113).

Go play TDS from the Golds and shoot 78, see that that gives you!

I can shoot 73-75 from the Blues in TV, most every day. I get home to a real golf course, I'm lucky if break 80 once in a while.

[GizmoWhiskers]

There just dumbing down the sport of golf!
That falls in line with just about everything else "they" are dumbing down across the board in ___(fill in the blank)___

Hey, it will free up some space for more houses in T V no?? Win win.

[BrianConley]

If you want to play “real” golf, you need to play from the golds. The blues are too easy, most if not all are under 6200 yards. I wish they had a combo, blue/golds , white/blues like many courses in Florida do. Blue/gold at 6350 yards would be perfect.

[Burnie]

I didn't start to play golf until I moved here in 2004 when I was 69 years old. I'm now 88 years old and play only occasionally. The executive courses are for people like me, just to have fun. Lately my playing partner and I (brother-in-law) don't even keep score, we just enjoy being out and being alive, so official handicaps mean nothing to us.

[TomSpasm]

Based on my experiences with going outside the bubble with Villages handicaps, they don't hold up in the outside world. If you go to courses like Mission Inn, Black Bear, or CC of Mount Dora, you are not going to score like you can here.

With regard to the complaint that shooting par from the white tees still makes you an 8 handicap, that's because of the lack of length. There has to be a way to differentiate a guy who shoots 72 from 5600 yards from one who shoots 72 from 7000 yards.

Full Disclosure, I'm a 9.4 handicap index, historically play from the blues but they're getting too long for me to have fun, playing more whites now.

[Wilson02852]

It's wonderful to know TV is full of low handicap golfers.

In the real world of TV golf most players are social golfers and don't give a crap about handicap. Get over yourself and just enjoy the game. No one is going to see you in the final pairing on Sunday.

[Marsha11]

This should be for the executive courses. I personally beleive all of the championship are in and good.

[golfing eagles]

Based on my experiences with going outside the bubble with Villages handicaps, they don't hold up in the outside world. If you go to courses like Mission Inn, Black Bear, or CC of Mount Dora, you are not going to score like you can here.

With regard to the complaint that shooting par from the white tees still makes you an 8 handicap, that's because of the lack of length. There has to be a way to differentiate a guy who shoots 72 from 5600 yards from one who shoots 72 from 7000 yards.

Full Disclosure, I'm a 9.4 handicap index, historically play from the blues but they're getting too long for me to have fun, playing more whites now.

Differentiate??? It's called handicap index. I guarantee you the course rating is about 5-6 shots higher from 7200 than it is from 5500. Then, when you play El Campion or Black Bear, the slope is higher as well. So when a Villager who shoots 80 from the white tees here goes and plays the championship tees at Bethpage Black (rating about 77.5, slope 155) he can expect to shoot about 106

[golfing eagles]

It's wonderful to know TV is full of low handicap golfers.

In the real world of TV golf most players are social golfers and don't give a crap about handicap. Get over yourself and just enjoy the game. No one is going to see you in the final pairing on Sunday.

In the "real world" of golf, there is a spectrum of players from top touring pros to complete hacks. In the "real world of TV", just look at the course records for the low side, and on the easiest execs for complete beginners.

None of them are going to be in the "Sunday final pairing", but that doesn't mean there aren't those that play a little more serious towards attainable goals. As far as the "social golfers" go, just take care of the course, respect the etiquette and keep up. Since they are mostly on the execs, I won't see them anyway.

[SHIBUMI]

I agree that the ratings are 4-6 shots too high.......the result being the handicaps here don't travel well............

The major factor of a course rating is length..........in the old days it was the only factor........
Now they have a formula for secondary factors, width of fairways, type of rough, hazards, slope of greens, speed of greens

A rating team, usually 3-4 persons, walk each hole individually and give that hole a rating based on length and secondary factors, once done they all discuss their notes and come to a conclusion for each hole. That conclusion, and their notes, are submitted to the State Golf Association for another review and a rating is established.

Once submitted to the State Golf Association is when it becomes political. They compare different course ratings and the courses they hold in high esteem will stay with a higher rating even though a team determined otherwise. Sad fact.

I had a course rated in Massachusetts, very high, but when it came back it was lowered. I was told it was lowered because it would be rated harder than The Country Club in Brookline. Politics at the State level.

With the length of the courses in TV, with the very wide fairways, with the bunkers in the fairway really out of play, with the green side bunkers being minimal and not severe, and the greens being fairly flat with little or no slopes and the green speed usually being medium, the course should be rated lower. Again I would say 4-5 shots.

With all that being said, the courses at TV are ideal for its users. You can boast of a low handicap, BUT, don't take it out of the bubble, you will be slaughtered.

Again I say, great courses for this population.

Florida State Golf Association announced:

Starting in 2024, The World Handicap System™ has approved lowering the minimum length for a tee to be issued a Course Rating and Slope Rating to 1,500 yards for 18 holes or 750 yards for 9 holes.

This will allow our Executive Course rounds to be entered into the handicap system.

Anyone know if our Executive Courses will be rated? Thanks.

[golfing eagles]

I agree that the ratings are 4-6 shots too high.......the result being the handicaps here don't travel well............

The major factor of a course rating is length..........in the old days it was the only factor........
Now they have a formula for secondary factors, width of fairways, type of rough, hazards, slope of greens, speed of greens

A rating team, usually 3-4 persons, walk each hole individually and give that hole a rating based on length and secondary factors, once done they all discuss their notes and come to a conclusion for each hole. That conclusion, and their notes, are submitted to the State Golf Association for another review and a rating is established.

Once submitted to the State Golf Association is when it becomes political. They compare different course ratings and the courses they hold in high esteem will stay with a higher rating even though a team determined otherwise. Sad fact.

I had a course rated in Massachusetts, very high, but when it came back it was lowered. I was told it was lowered because it would be rated harder than The Country Club in Brookline. Politics at the State level.

With the length of the courses in TV, with the very wide fairways, with the bunkers in the fairway really out of play, with the green side bunkers being minimal and not severe, and the greens being fairly flat with little or no slopes and the green speed usually being medium, the course should be rated lower. Again I would say 4-5 shots.

With all that being said, the courses at TV are ideal for its users. You can boast of a low handicap, BUT, don't take it out of the bubble, you will be slaughtered.

Again I say, great courses for this population.

Nice post, but unfortunately it is backwards. If, as stated, you feel TV courses are easy and should be rated 4-5 shots lower, which would put them about 61-62, then everyone's handicap index would be INFLATED by 4-5 shots. Outside the bubble, TV golfers would have a huge advantage, especially since our courses tend to have a low slope as well.

[UpNorth]

The championship courses in The Villages are designed with 2 objectives in mind:
1) Drain the water from the housing areas
2) Make it play as fast and easy as possible to maximize profits

That's why most of the Championship courses all look alike.

[golfing eagles]

The championship courses in The Villages are designed with 2 objectives in mind:
1) Drain the water from the housing areas
2) Make it play as fast and easy as possible to maximize profits

That's why most of the Championship courses all look alike.

Really??? So why did they bother hiring golf course architects. Why pay Arnold Palmer, Nancy Lopez, Hubert Green and John Mahaffey to design courses. They could have just planted some flags in a low-lying cow meadow to drain water and "speed play". Full disclosure---are you even a golfer---not play golf, but a golfer????

[Stu from NYC]

First World Problems.

:gc:

What else do we have to complain about?

[SHIBUMI]

If you think that AP,NL,HG,and JM fully designed these golf courses than you must believe in Bigfoot and the Lockness Monster.
They have companies that do that and they review.............it aint the same

[golfing eagles]

If you think that AP,NL,HG,and JM fully designed these golf courses than you must believe in Bigfoot and the Lockness Monster.
They have companies that do that and they review.............it aint the same

No kidding. If you believe those companies come cheap, YOU must believe in Bigfoot as well. Remember that poster's premise that I was responding to---drainage and fast play to make excessive profits. I doubt you agree with that.

[Jayhawk]

What else do we have to complain about?

A few hard-core complainers here are never lacking something to be unhappy about. Seems like they live to be miserable. I guess everyone needs a hobby.

:boom:

[SHIBUMI]

Bottom Line, the golf courses cater beautifully to the clientele

[UpNorth]

Really??? So why did they bother hiring golf course architects. Why pay Arnold Palmer, Nancy Lopez, Hubert Green and John Mahaffey to design courses. They could have just planted some flags in a low-lying cow meadow to drain water and "speed play". Full disclosure---are you even a golfer---not play golf, but a golfer????

Nearly all The Villages courses are designed by the same design firm - Clifton, Ezell and Clifton. Including the Palmer and Lopez courses. Look up their website and you will see just about every Villages course listed.
And Yes I am a real golfer, playing since my teen years. And I play real courses.

[SHIBUMI]

Actually, with a course rating that is too high, the handicaps are deflated and thats why, as writers have noted, they don't travel well. With a lower rating handicaps will go up but would be truer. Downside is you won't be able to brag you are a 5 handicap when your actually a 9.

Slope ratings on golf courses won't make up for the fact that your course rating is too high. :wave::wave: It takes a difference of 10 points on a course slope to move the needle by 1 stroke
You are again slaughtered. Sorry, don't bet outside the bubble...........




Nice post, but unfortunately it is backwards. If, as stated, you feel TV courses are easy and should be rated 4-5 shots lower, which would put them about 61-62, then everyone's handicap index would be INFLATED by 4-5 shots. Outside the bubble, TV golfers would have a huge advantage, especially since our courses tend to have a low slope as well.

[dewilson58]

Bottom Line, the golf courses cater beautifully to the clientele

Very true in so many ways.

:eclipsee_gold_cup:

[SHIBUMI]

Just so you know, the reason a golf course can be called a Championship Golf course is
only because it is a Par 72. There is no other reasons, great courses that are Par 70,71,69,
are not Championship Golf Courses. They may hold championships there but the course is not a Championship course. It is by definition.

That is why courses stretched out Par 3's into Par 4 and Par 4's into Par 5's to reach a 72 par. It was important to marketing. Not so much nowadays. But still used.:oops:






Actually, with a course rating that is too high, the handicaps are deflated and thats why, as writers have noted, they don't travel well. With a lower rating handicaps will go up but would be truer. Downside is you won't be able to brag you are a 5 handicap when your actually a 9.

Slope ratings on golf courses won't make up for the fact that your course rating is too high. :wave::wave: It takes a difference of 10 points on a course slope to move the needle by 1 stroke
You are again slaughtered. Sorry, don't bet outside the bubble...........

[golfing eagles]

Actually, with a course rating that is too high, the handicaps are deflated and thats why, as writers have noted, they don't travel well. With a lower rating handicaps will go up but would be truer. Downside is you won't be able to brag you are a 5 handicap when your actually a 9.

Slope ratings on golf courses won't make up for the fact that your course rating is too high. :wave::wave: It takes a difference of 10 points on a course slope to move the needle by 1 stroke
You are again slaughtered. Sorry, don't bet outside the bubble...........

OK, let's try this again. Say you shot 80 exactly on the best 8 of your last 20 rounds on a course in TV with a rating of 67. Your index will be about 12.5-13. Now, if as you suggest, they drop the rating to 61. Your index is now18.5-19. Please explain how that is a deflated handicap. Now, you might make the case that a 5 handicap from a course with too high a rating is not as skilled as a golfer from a course with a "true" rating, but then you would have to look at course ratings everywhere. Are they all too high???

[SHIBUMI]

The course you shot 80 on, has too high a rating, so your current handicap is deflated. If you play on a properly rated course that has the same rating as yours. you will be lucky to break 90. As other writers noted.

If the rating was correct, you would be closer to an 18 handicap. Your 90 would have a better chance to win.

No, the one you shot 80 on is. The 5 on too high a rating will be fodder.

Some courses are rated too high and some rated too low...tough to tell...... its best to know your own before you bet the house on it.

Lastly, how often are courses rated...........?....they are rated at the bequest of the owners of the course.........who may decide what's best in their best interest

The point is you are currently delfatedOK, let's try this again. Say you shot 80 exactly on the best 8 of your last 20 rounds on a course in TV with a rating of 67. Your index will be about 12.5-13. Now, if as you suggest, they drop the rating to 61. Your index is now18.5-19. Please explain how that is a deflated handicap. Now, you might make the case that a 5 handicap from a course with too high a rating is not as skilled as a golfer from a course with a "true" rating, but then you would have to look at course ratings everywhere. Are they all too high???

[golfing eagles]

The course you shot 80 on, has too high a rating, so your current handicap is deflated. If you play on a properly rated course that has the same rating as yours. you will be lucky to break 90. As other writers noted.

If the rating was correct, you would be closer to an 18 handicap. Your 90 would have a better chance to win.

No, the one you shot 80 on is. The 5 on too high a rating will be fodder.

Some courses are rated too high and some rated too low...tough to tell...... its best to know your own before you bet the house on it.

Lastly, how often are courses rated...........?....they are rated at the bequest of the owners of the course.........who may decide what's best in their best interest

The point is you are currently delfated

We're saying the same thing, we just define inflated and deflated differently in this context

[Wilson02852]

Had a wonderful time yesterday on an imaginary golf course where I shot 2 under. Could have been a 90 on a real course with real golfers.

[SHIBUMI]

Nice Round!!

[BrianL99]

I agree that the ratings are 4-6 shots too high.......the result being the handicaps here don't travel well............



That's ridiculous. The Rating at GV from the White Tees on Tally Ho/Fox Run is 65.3. Which means you need to shoot 7 Under Par to be "Scratch". Scratch is predicated on making Pars. Which means 36 Shots at GV are used to Putt. Leaving you only 29 shots to reach 18 Greens. Take out the Par 3's. You now have 25 Shots to reach 14 Greens (including Par 5's). You think the Rating should be 4-6 strokes lower? 20 Shots to reach 14 Greens (including 4 part 5's)? Good luck with that.

TV handicaps travel perfectly fine, if you play a golf course with similar length. If you play the "White Tees" at TV (5500 yards) & then go play El Campeon from the White Tees, you're going to be in trouble. EC plays about 6300 yards, at a Rating of over 71 from the White Tees.



Once submitted to the State Golf Association is when it becomes political. They compare different course ratings and the courses they hold in high esteem will stay with a higher rating even though a team determined otherwise. Sad fact.

I had a course rated in Massachusetts, very high, but when it came back it was lowered. I was told it was lowered because it would be rated harder than The Country Club in Brookline. Politics at the State level.


That's mostly nonsense. There are plenty of courses in MA, rated harder than TCC. Also, the TCC layout changes for different tournaments. The US Am played a significantly different course than was played at the US Open.


With the length of the courses in TV, with the very wide fairways, with the bunkers in the fairway really out of play, with the green side bunkers being minimal and not severe, and the greens being fairly flat with little or no slopes and the green speed usually being medium, the course should be rated lower. Again I would say 4-5 shots.



Here's a link to every course rating in the US. See how many 5500 yard courses you can find, with Ratings 4-5 shots lower than TV Ratings. https://ncrdb.usga.org/

[SHIBUMI]

I can shoot 73-75 from the Blues in TV, most every day. I get home to a real golf course, I'm lucky if break 80 once in a while.
From the mouth of babes............exactly my point.......

[justjim]

Based on my experiences with going outside the bubble with Villages handicaps, they don't hold up in the outside world. If you go to courses like Mission Inn, Black Bear, or CC of Mount Dora, you are not going to score like you can here.

With regard to the complaint that shooting par from the white tees still makes you an 8 handicap, that's because of the lack of length. There has to be a way to differentiate a guy who shoots 72 from 5600 yards from one who shoots 72 from 7000 yards.

Full Disclosure, I'm a 9.4 handicap index, historically play from the blues but they're getting too long for me to have fun, playing more whites now.

Golf, especially at our age, should be fun. To play a game that isn’t fun doesn’t make any sense to me. If you play an executive course and it’s par 29 and you shoot 31 or 32 you are having fun. If you never played golf before retiring and you shoot 37 or 38 you are still having fun. If you shoot 27 on the same course you are ecstatic! At my age I could care less about having an official handicap.

[SHIBUMI]

Explanations:

From the White Tees, a scratch player will reach all par 5's in 2 putting them at 4 under par. At leads 4 of the par 4's will be reachable from the tee, putting them at 8 under par. Bonus birdies will be on par 3 holes. Its doable.

My point on course ratings is that they are political as well as numerical.

If you are a 3-5 at TV, you will not shoot that off TV as you mentioned.

[dewilson58]

Explanations:

From the White Tees, a scratch player will reach all par 5's in 2 putting them at 4 under par. At leads 4 of the par 4's will be reachable from the tee, putting them at 8 under par. Bonus birdies will be on par 3 holes. Its doable.

My point on course ratings is that they are political as well as numerical.

If you are a 3-5 at TV, you will not shoot that off TV as you mentioned.


I agree with you................TV courses are very easy compared to other courses across the USA.
As mentioned, no rough, no trees, fairway sand traps are not located, etc.

I do disagree on you part about reachable par fours...........I don't think the par fours are as reachable.
A few would be 285 yards, most over 300.
But that does not impact your statement on the ease of TV.

:ho:

[Marsha11]

I dont think you won't always be trusted to have a number for you . You must

[SHIBUMI]

thanks, TV should be easy so this age group can have fun, which is the main purpose..........

[justjim]

Florida State Golf Association announced:

Starting in 2024, The World Handicap System™ has approved lowering the minimum length for a tee to be issued a Course Rating and Slope Rating to 1,500 yards for 18 holes or 750 yards for 9 holes.

This will allow our Executive Course rounds to be entered into the handicap system.

Anyone know if our Executive Courses will be rated? Thanks.

OP, you ask a good question. As I understand, in general, executive courses are managed by the Developer but maintained with residents money. There could be cost associated with rating all of the 40 plus executive courses. The cost benefit might be questionable. Most golfers play the executive courses for fun as opposed to competition. There are a few exceptions, however, using handicaps would somewhat complicate the scoring process. It could be done but is it really worth it?
As of 2020, according to google, the average age in The Villages is 72.2. The age of golfers playing the executive courses would be much higher than those golfers playing the championship courses. Not to mention the skill level and the many beginner golfers on the executive courses. Well, you can see where I’m going with the cost benefit. If there would be no cost with rating the executive courses, then no harm done with money that could be spent on maintaining the quality of the executive courses. As you know, so many ball marks and sand traps are not properly taken care of by golfers on the courses of The villages. Perhaps some money could be spent to emphasize good golf etiquette especially at the executive courses. Free divot tools at all courses during the month of January with a sign to please fix ball marks on greens as an example. Just a thought.

[Joeint]

The executive courses have ratings https://ncrdb.usga.org/

[kansasr]

The executive courses have ratings https://ncrdb.usga.org/

Thank you. Amazing, it only took 3 full pages of hijacking to get an answer to the OP's question LOL.

[MrChip72]

I rarely play a round on the Executives where there isn't at least a handful of mulligans taken by most of the group and sometimes 3 foot "gimmes" on a fast and sloped green not to mention the occasional uncounted foot wedge usage for a more favorable lie.

To start worrying about handicaps on those would be silly.

[kkingston57]

If they do, I certainly hope they use more experienced course raters than those who flubbed the ratings on the championship courses.

They are on the GHIN system now. Actually surprised that the USGA is now doing this. Great short game players will have a tooooo low handicap

[kkingston57]

Really??? So why did they bother hiring golf course architects. Why pay Arnold Palmer, Nancy Lopez, Hubert Green and John Mahaffey to design courses. They could have just planted some flags in a low-lying cow meadow to drain water and "speed play". Full disclosure---are you even a golfer---not play golf, but a golfer????

Had same 1st reaction. Big difference in old vs newer courses.

[kkingston57]

Differentiate??? It's called handicap index. I guarantee you the course rating is about 5-6 shots higher from 7200 than it is from 5500. Then, when you play El Campion or Black Bear, the slope is higher as well. So when a Villager who shoots 80 from the white tees here goes and plays the championship tees at Bethpage Black (rating about 77.5, slope 155) he can expect to shoot about 106

Biggest difference is that white tees in TV are shorter than other courses and consequently have a lower slope. How many 300 -325 yard holes are out there? A lot. Generally I(13 handicap) can expect to be 4-5 shots higher on other courses.