Cost Of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal To Paying $17.33 Per Gallon Of Gasoline, Study

[rsmurano]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

[MrChip72]

Of course the website is called "truthpress.com". Most of us recently have noticed a pattern where anything with the word "truth" in front of it is usually full of BS.

Hilarious that the article quotes "They give evidence", but then doesn't provide any evidence at all.

[Two Bills]

According to Truth, it seems Ford are now losing $70000 per EV, which is just about double the last anti-EV thread suggested.

"The only way is up, Baby!" :sing:

[Bill14564]

There are 20 pages of the Bennett study and 120+ pages of the Argonne study to read and digest but a few things struck me right from the start:


- The Bennett study adds the Federal and State rebates onto the price of the EV though there is no indication they were subtracted from the price being used
- The Bennett study adds transmission and distribution costs even though those costs are actually being collected by the electric company (check your bill)
- The Bennett study has three costs, including CAFE credits, that are "Costs to Buyers of Gasoline Vehicles," totaling $27,800. If these numbers are accurate then subtracting them from the price of the ICE and HEV models would mean the auto makers would give us the car for free with a $1,000 check sitting on the seat.


Again, there are nearly 150 pages to read and digest but something about the Truth seems a bit dishonest.

[dewilson58]

Did I miss it?????.....................Was it converted to cost per mile over the life of the car???
(easier for comparison)

[Bill14564]

Did I miss it?????.....................Was it converted to cost per mile over the life of the car???
(easier for comparison)

Both the Bennett report that Truth mentions and the Argonne report that is being "corrected" calculate cost per mile over a 10yr/120Kmi life.

I had to google to find the Bennett (bennett texas ev study overcharged) and it had a link to the Argonne.

[retiredguy123]

This study is so confusing, that I don't know where to start. My first thought is that EV owners don't pay anything for gasoline because their vehicle doesn't use gasoline. So, who cares about the price of gasoline? And, the cost for gasoline for an ICE vehicle is nowhere near the total cost to operate the vehicle. Here is the math:

120,000 miles/25 mpg = 4,800 gallons x $3.50/gallon = $16,800 (which is only 14 cents per mile)

Also, the study seems to calculate the cost of Government subsidies for EVs, but what about the cost for subsidies for ICE vehicles?

[ThirdOfFive]

Well, as Mark Twain so astutely observed, there are three classes of untruths: "Lies, damned lies and statistics". IMO of the three, statistics are the worst, because they can be interpreted (or twisted, more to the point) to say anything the person wants them to say. In a statistics class way back when, I once proved that 79% of college students where I was attending approved of abortion as a form of birth control. I also proved that 82% of the college students where I was attending OPPOSED abortion as a form of birth control. So there you go.

After a bewildering series of clicks all I could really deduce is that it costs the owner of the vehicle about three cents more per mile driven for a gasoline vehicle than for an electric one. That's what hits the consumer's pocketbook: it says nothing about Government rebates, incentives, etc. affecting the producer, carrier or retailer of the product (electricity or hydrocarbon) in question. I choose gasoline because it is a whole lot easier to gas up when on the road than to charge up, and if the unthinkable happens and I end with a dry tank or discharged battery, it is a much more efficient to call road service and get enough gas delivered to make the next station than it is a battery charge. Probably cheaper too.

[Rylee]

Can anybody just tell me what it cost them to charge their car at a charging station?

[tophcfa]

Bottom line is that you can’t put a price on driving range and the speed/convenience of reloading the vehicles power source. We need our vehicles to be able to get us between our two homes, which are 1,350 miles apart, without worries and time consuming hassles. Also, if we get stuck in bad traffic, we want to be able to heat/cool our vehicles interior space without worrying about depleting our power source.

[Topspinmo]

Maybe it’s the cost to make EVs and energy used to recharge them? No vehicle can be made without natural resources, crud oil being major part. We will never remove curd oil from the equation’s. The only efficient way to produce electricity hydroelectric and nuclear For world consumption. Sure wind and solar with contribution little? Little being the point.

[Topspinmo]

This study is so confusing, that I don't know where to start. My first thought is that EV owners don't pay anything for gasoline because their vehicle doesn't use gasoline. So, who cares about the price of gasoline? And, the cost for gasoline for an ICE vehicle is nowhere near the total cost to operate the vehicle. Here is the math:

120,000 miles/25 mpg = 4,800 gallons x $3.50/gallon = $16,800 (which is only 14 cents per mile)

Also, the study seems to calculate the cost of Government subsidies for EVs, but what about the cost for subsidies for ICE vehicles?


Don’t pay yet. That will change when majority drive electric 20 years after I’m dead.

[drbales]

When we were parked in a garage in downtown Winter Garden several weeks ago the charging station cost there was 37 cents per minute.

[kkingston57]

How many studies are truly independent? Bet even Consumer Reports does have some biases.

[Pugchief]

When we were parked in a garage in downtown Winter Garden several weeks ago the charging station cost there was 37 cents per minute.

I was under the impression that you pay by the KWh when using public chargers?

In any event, I have a Tesla Model 3 UpNorth and my electric bill went up, on average, around $25/month, which is way less than what I was spending on gasoline. I drive maybe 50 miles/day on average.

Half of the electric bill is BS fixed charges that are unrelated to usage.

[MrChip72]

When we were parked in a garage in downtown Winter Garden several weeks ago the charging station cost there was 37 cents per minute.

So that's under $6 for a 15 minute, 200 mile charge typically. Doesn't seem too bad.

[Blackbird45]

There are many who are anti EVs and I respect their position, but EVs are going to replace ICE. This has nothing to do with global warming. This is all profit motivated. EVs are less expensive to produce, the major cost is the batteries which all the major companies are pouring mass amounts of money to address. Another issue is charging station which again a ton of money is being spent to address. There is the issue of producing electricity again many power companies are improving their capacity knowing there is going to be future demand which means more profits. There are two others that has nothing to do with cost, which is the convince of never have to visit a gas station and no longer having to rely on a foreign government for our fuel supply.

[Altawood]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)
Both authors of the ‘Study’ work for the petroenergy industry, so I would be suspect of their motives. While the cost of gas is alleged to be the total cost, that is also a lie as the oil industry also receives billions in subsidies.
Imagine if the Texas Study examined the cost of sending us to the moon!

[Southwest737]

Can anybody just tell me what it cost them to charge their car at a charging station?

Cost to charge at Tesla superchargers ranges from 30-35 cents per kWh. But the vast majority of our driving is local so we only pay 8 cents currently to SECO. That equates to 2 cents per mile. 1000 miles of driving in a month cost $20-25 extra on electric bill. But many days we charge while our solar is producing juice which is then essentially free.

[Altawood]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)
https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion#:~:text=Fossil%2Dfuel%20subsidies%20surge d%20to,economic%20recovery%20from%20the%20pandemic .

[Carlsondm]

I would expect a study like this to provide references or allow comments. The future availability of resources is not brought up.

[LoisR]

Nonsense. We have two Phevs and haven't bought gas for months and our monthly electric bill is about $12, yes, $12, more than our neighbors.

[LonnyP]

Based out of Texas? Of course they want it to be high.

[HJBeck]

That must have been the Exon cost study. The government study says the average cost of an electric cars energy consumption per year based on 15,000 mi/year is $650.00.
A gasoline car at 15,000 miles would be 15000/30 mi/gal x$3.80/gal = $1900.00/year. Doesn’t add up does it. Electric cars don’t need oil changes, tuneups, or brake changes. How in the world can that translate to $17/ gal?
Bad information, bad interpretation.

[defrey12]

Of course the website is called "truthpress.com". Most of us recently have noticed a pattern where anything with the word "truth" in front of it is usually full of BS.

Hilarious that the article quotes "They give evidence", but then doesn't provide any evidence at all.

The evidence is in what’s called mathematics. You side should try using it sometime.

[srswans]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

I saved $100/month not having to buy gas while I leased an EV.

Of course, the car depreciated $31k during ownership but only half of that was built into the lease pmt.

[rickaslin]

Can anybody just tell me what it cost them to charge their car at a charging station?

I have a freind that owns a Tesla, he @$24 to re charge to 60%.

[jmpalladino]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

Overall, we rate Truth Press Far-Right Biased and Questionable based on promoting propaganda, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience. We also rate them Low for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources who frequently fail fact checks, blatant copyright infringement, and a total lack of transparency. (D. Van Zandt 07/28/2022)

Source: Home - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/)

Last Updated on July 1, 2023 by Media Bias Fact Check

[MandoMan]

When we were parked in a garage in downtown Winter Garden several weeks ago the charging station cost there was 37 cents per minute.

Are you sure that wasn’t per kilowatt hour? They make a profit and also pay for the equipment by charging much more per KWH than you would pay at home. Gas stations also charge more for gas than 8t costs them.

[mntlblok]

There are 20 pages of the Bennett study and 120+ pages of the Argonne study to read and digest but a few things struck me right from the start:


- The Bennett study adds the Federal and State rebates onto the price of the EV though there is no indication they were subtracted from the price being used
- The Bennett study adds transmission and distribution costs even though those costs are actually being collected by the electric company (check your bill)
- The Bennett study has three costs, including CAFE credits, that are "Costs to Buyers of Gasoline Vehicles," totaling $27,800. If these numbers are accurate then subtracting them from the price of the ICE and HEV models would mean the auto makers would give us the car for free with a $1,000 check sitting on the seat.


Again, there are nearly 150 pages to read and digest but something about the Truth seems a bit dishonest.

How derned fast can you *read*??!

[Wondering]

Your source is not credible! Stop posting garbage and misinformation that is not legitimate. Pathetic!

[jmcgirr1]

Truthpress.com is not a trustworthy site - Per MediaBiasFactCheck.com
"Overall, we rate Truth Press Far-Right Biased and Questionable based on promoting propaganda, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience. We also rate them Low for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources who frequently fail fact checks, blatant copyright infringement, and a total lack of transparency."

Now let's look at Consumer Reports - Per MediaBiasFactCheck.com
"Overall, we rate Consumer Reports Least Biased based on straightforward product reviews and High for factual reporting due to a clean fact check record."

Read the Consumer Reports article if you are interested in facts about the costs of EV vehicles:
Talk of the Villages won't let me include the direct link, but you can find it by searching:

Consumer Reports Will an Electric Car Save You Money?

[Bill14564]

How derned fast can you *read*??!

Haha! They say a picture is worth a thousand words. The points that I made were based on two pictures and a table - roughly three thousand words at a glance!

Reading the 150 or so pages is going to take much longer.

[Nellmack]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

This article is a joke and not worth a response.

[ThirdOfFive]

Of course the website is called "truthpress.com". Most of us recently have noticed a pattern where anything with the word "truth" in front of it is usually full of BS.

Hilarious that the article quotes "They give evidence", but then doesn't provide any evidence at all.
Heh. Auto repair shop up in Burnsville, MN bills itself as "Honest1" Auto Repair".

The times I've driven by there it was conspicuous for the empty bays.

If you have the need to tout your honesty, well...

[KCasey]

Can anybody just tell me what it cost them to charge their car at a charging station?

I've owned my Tesla for just shy of 3 years. For many of those three years, I primarily charged my car at work for FREE. So no cost to charge. On the days that I did charge at home in RI, it costs about $9 to "fill the tank", and I don't charge every day. I looked on my app for my FL charging cost. I have done one charge where the car was pretty low in charge and it cost $5 on my electric bill.

As far as charging at a Tesla Supercharger. I have not done that in Florida yet (every State is different) but in RI where I'm from it cost me between $9 - $15 depending on how much of a charge I needed.

One more thing to consider, there is virtually NO maintenance on a Tesla. In RI where there is snow, the suggestion was that every two years bring the car in to have the brakes cleaned. I did that once in RI and asked "ok, now what do I need to do" they answered "see you in a couple of years".

Also, there are no oil changes either. I absolutely love this car. For me, not knowing a lot about cars it's ideal, as the car will let me know if there is anything wrong. Best car I've ever owned!

[bigeasy]

Ford just posted record profits.

[Pat2015]

How many minutes does it take to get a full charge?

[hypart]

Even if the stat is true, I'd much rather pay that than support the middle east countries that supply us gasoline.

[Nellmack]

I mostly charge at my house or office and at both places (according to my utility bill) I am charged $0.18 per kW.
When I'm taking a long trip and I charge at a Tesla Super Charger I'm charged $0.39 per kW.
My car has a 100kWh battery. If I charge from 15% to 85% (that = 70% x 100kWh x cost of electric) or 70 x $.18 = $12.60
If I'm on a long trip using the same parameters and charging at the Tesla Super Charger the cost would be 70 x $0.39 = $27.30

[Cheapbas]

Of course the website is called "truthpress.com". Most of us recently have noticed a pattern where anything with the word "truth" in front of it is usually full of BS.

Hilarious that the article quotes "They give evidence", but then doesn't provide any evidence at all.

Truthpress.com bought to you by a consortium of fossil fuel cos. (Sarcasm)

[Nellmack]

How many minutes does it take to get a full charge?

It depends on what amperage you're using. At my house I have a 50 Amp breaker, at my office I on a 100 Amp service. At a Tesla Super Charger they use a very high powered service. I don't know what size, sorry. But it's very fast. At Tesla's fastest charging station it will go from 15% to 80% in the time it takes to use the bathroom and get a sandwich (15 minutes).
I don't pay attention to how long it takes at home because I plug it in every day when I get home and it's fully charged in the morning. Kinda nice having a full charge (or the equivalent of a full tank of gas every morning).

[Fastskiguy]

Can anybody just tell me what it cost them to charge their car at a charging station?

Not sure if this has been answered (didn't read the whole thing) but I'll give it a shot. My car gets a bit more than 4 miles per kWh of electricity but let's go with 4 for easy math. It is the base, cheapest, $32,000 model 3 and currently can go 260 miles on a full battery. 260/4=65 kWh. Superchargers are 30-35 cents per kWh and 97% of the energy coming out of the charger is going into the battery so 65kWh/.097% efficient X $0.35 per kWh =$23.45

We're paying a little under 13 cents/kWh for electricity here in TV so at home...where almost all of the charging happens...works out to $8.70 for a full charge. (One of the big things that people don't understand is that you charge at home at night, you don't charge at a supercharger unless you are on a trip)

Let's compare to our other car, 2017 Chrysler pacifica. 260 miles at 25mph = 10.4 gallons of gas. Let's say we're paying $3.20 per and that puts us at $33.28 for the same number of miles.

So in summary, a little cheaper at a Supercharger but only 1/4th of the cost per mile if charging at home. I hope this helps!

Joe

[cherylncliff]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

Overall, we rate Truth Press Far-Right Biased and Questionable based on promoting propaganda, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience. We also rate them Low for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources who frequently fail fact checks, blatant copyright infringement, and a total lack of transparency.

[Fastskiguy]

Can anybody just tell me what it cost them to charge their car at a charging station?

How many minutes does it take to get a full charge?

In the southern villages you can get $7 back on your monthly electric bill if you charge between midnight and 6am. Plus it's better for the grid in general so lots of people charge at night. It's easy and a full battery ready to go in the morning (or 80% battery or whatever you charge to....for most (not all) Teslas they recommend 80% for everyday driving).

Mine charged for 1 hour and 20 minutes last night giving me 10kWh of charge and that is good for 40 miles...the amount I drove yesterday. We were almost empty Thursday night and it charged for 6 hours in the garage.

Superchargers on vacation give me roughly 10 miles per minute of charge so a 10 minute stop and we're good for another 100 miles. At the supercharges you don' t need your credit card or wallet, you don't input your zip code or say "no" to the car wash, you just grab the plug and stick it in the car. Mosey in for a "natural break", come back, pull out the plug and return to the charger, hop in the car and take off. Standing waiting for the tank to fill is a thing of the past and I LOVE IT!!!!

Joe

[Robnlaura]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.

[Fastskiguy]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.

It would be nice to know if they took everything into account....costs for raw materials, healthy costs due to pollution, etc. etc. etc. I have not seen an exhaustive, non biased report yet (but would love to see one!)

However, assuming it's true, it's only going to get better over time and the electric car is so much better for almost every use case that it's an obvious choice for the consumer. IMO of course ;)

Joe

[Tvflguy]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.

The 2024 Tesla Model 3, which we plan to order when avail in USA, net actual cost before tax and delivery will be about $36,500. This includes special paint and interior colors. Also the US tax credit which in ‘24 will be taken right off the vehicle price.

A Toyota Camry would be much more based on standard equipment of the Tesla. And NO dealing with markups and hassling of a selling Dealer. Tesla order takes 5 minutes on their web site. No haggling etc etc.

[Fastskiguy]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.

The 2024 Tesla Model 3, which we plan to order when avail in USA, net actual cost before tax and delivery will be about $36,500. This includes special paint and interior colors. Also the US tax credit which in ‘24 will be taken right off the vehicle price.

A Toyota Camry would be much more based on standard equipment of the Tesla. And NO dealing with markups and hassling of a selling Dealer. Tesla order takes 5 minutes on their web site. No haggling etc etc.

Isn't it pleasant....just order from you phone. No getting worked over for hours at the dealership!

Joe

[Keefelane66]

It must be true “because I read it on the internet”
Have spoken to many Tesla EV owners I have come across in the Villages. Haven’t come across any disgruntled owners yet. Charging is done at home with no issues. One I talked to drove from Tulsa Ok two day drive with no charging issues on way to The Villages.

[Fastskiguy]

It must be true “because I read it on the internet”
Have spoken to many Tesla EV owners I have come across in the Villages. Haven’t come across any disgruntled owners yet. Charging is done at home with no issues. One I talked to drove from Tulsa Ok two day drive with no charging issues on way to The Villages.

Just a single data point but we've done 1,700 miles in the last 2 weeks and it's been great! The car drives itself most of the way so long trips are easier due to less cognitive load.

Given the driving I've witnessed here in Florida....I wish all cars drove themselves LOL!

Joe

[Heytubes]

How much do replacement batteries cost in a few years?

[Fastskiguy]

How much do replacement batteries cost in a few years?

After 300,000 miles....who cares? It's like asking how much does it cost to replace and engine and transmission in a super old car, it's not really "a thing" for 99% of people.

How Long Does a Tesla Car Battery Last? | EnergySage (https://www.energysage.com/electric-vehicles/how-long-do-tesla-car-batteries-last/)

Joe

[retiredguy123]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.
Huh? Do the math. If you drive 12,000 miles per year for 15 years, that is 180,000 miles. So, 180,000 x $0.0219 = $3,942. I thought that an EV is $20k to $30k more expensive than an ICE.

[Justputt]

There are some basic things being forgotten on both sides of the discussion. Think about our golf cart EV vs ICE discussions. There are maintenance costs with ICE that don't exist with EV (tune-up, breaks, oil, belts, etc.). Our EV cart batteries will need replacement every 5-7 years at a cost of about $4k for my 210Ah. Tesla battery replacement is $5-$20k. The current cost of a battery is around $160/kWh, which puts a Model Y @ $12k and Models X&S around $16k. I think current car EV battery warranty still around 8 years & 100k miles. I don't know if there is or will be disposal costs for old batteries since they are hazmat. So, basic math, $16k/100,000 miles is 16 cents per mile just for the battery and not including charging. Per Energysage.com "Across all models, Tesla's cost slightly less than 5 cents per mile to charge". Per policygenius.com "On average, insurance for an electric car is $44 per month more expensive than the cost of insuring a gas-powered car." So, $44x12months/12,000 miles per year = ~4 cents/mile. Now we're up to 25 cents per mile. Average gas price today in FL is $3.67 and if you can get 25mpg, that translates to about 15 cents per mile. Per Consumeraffairs.com my Chevy annual maintenance and repairs is $649 > $649/12,000 miles = ~5 cents/mile. So, for ICE, we're at 20 cents/mile. So, EV seems to cost more per mile to drive. Next, range ICE is the clear winner. Hot and cold climates, towing, and mountains, ICE is the clear winner. Both climate extremes significantly impact battery performance and hotter climates impact the life expectancy of batteries, even if just sitting out in summer sun. Additionally, the use of Fast Chargers reduces battery life. Per energy5.com "Degradation- Fast charging can cause the battery to degrade faster over time. This means you will have to replace your battery more often. Heat- Fast charging can cause the battery to heat up quickly. This can be a problem if your car is not equipped to handle it." Tesla Super Chargers are Class 3. Lastly, at the end of the EV's battery life, will there even be a replacement for your model? See this story: Florida Family Discovers That Used Electric Vehicles Are a Risk Not Worth Assuming - autoevolution (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/florida-family-discovers-that-used-electric-vehicles-are-a-risk-not-worth-assuming-193848.html) . Bottom line, ICE cars can run for as long as gas fuel exists in the world. EVs, when the battery dies, you risk having one REALLY expensive hazmat boat anchor.

[Vermilion Villager]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

Seems your 150 page pseudoscience article does not hold muster.
Electric Cars vs Gas Cars Cost in Each State | Self Financial (https://www.self.inc/info/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars-cost/#:~:text=Electric%20Car%20Cost%20Per%20Mile%20vs%2 0Gas&text=As%20an%20average%20across%20the,such%20as%20 maintenance%20or%20taxes).

Anyone else do a history check on the OP and notice a tendency of throwing out these posts and then never responding to what others have to say? We call these "drive-bys"

[Steban]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

From mediabiasfactcheck.com

Overall, we rate Truth Press Far-Right Biased and Questionable based on promoting propaganda, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience. We also rate them Low for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources who frequently fail fact checks, blatant copyright infringement, and a total lack of transparency.

[Vermilion Villager]

It depends on what amperage you're using. At my house I have a 50 Amp breaker, at my office I on a 100 Amp service. At a Tesla Super Charger they use a very high powered service. I don't know what size, sorry. But it's very fast. At Tesla's fastest charging station it will go from 15% to 80% in the time it takes to use the bathroom and get a sandwich (15 minutes).
I don't pay attention to how long it takes at home because I plug it in every day when I get home and it's fully charged in the morning. Kinda nice having a full charge (or the equivalent of a full tank of gas every morning).

:agree::bigbow:

[Vermilion Villager]

There are some basic things being forgotten on both sides of the discussion. Think about our golf cart EV vs ICE discussions. There are maintenance costs with ICE that don't exist with EV (tune-up, breaks, oil, belts, etc.). Our EV cart batteries will need replacement every 5-7 years at a cost of about $4k for my 210Ah. The manager of the golf carts of the villages says they have NEVER replaced a battery in a golf cart in the seven years they've been selling them. Tesla battery replacement is $5-$20k. Elon Musk explained that Tesla car batteries should last for 300,000 to 500,000 miles or 1,500 battery charge cycles. That's between 22 and 37 years for the average car driver, who, according to the Department of Transportation (DOT), drives 13,476 miles per year.The current cost of a battery is around $160/kWh, which puts a Model Y @ $12k and Models X&S around $16k. I think current car EV battery warranty still around 8 years & 100k miles. I don't know if there is or will be disposal costs for old batteries since they are hazmat. So, basic math, $16k/100,000 miles is 16 cents per mile just for the battery and not including charging. AGAIN Elon Musk explained that Tesla car batteries should last for 300,000 to 500,000 miles Per Energysage.com "Across all models, Tesla's cost slightly less than 5 cents per mile to charge". Per policygenius.com "On average, insurance for an electric car is $44 per month more expensive than the cost of insuring a gas-powered car." So, $44x12months/12,000 miles per year = ~4 cents/mile. Now we're up to 25 cents per mile. Average gas price today in FL is $3.67 and if you can get 25mpg, that translates to about 15 cents per mile. Per Consumeraffairs.com my Chevy annual maintenance and repairs is $649 > $649/12,000 miles = ~5 cents/mile. So, for ICE, we're at 20 cents/mile. So, EV seems to cost more per mile to drive. Next, range ICE is the clear winner. Hot and cold climates, towing, and mountains, ICE is the clear winner. Both climate extremes significantly impact battery performance and hotter climates impact the life expectancy of batteries, even if just sitting out in summer sun. Additionally, the use of Fast Chargers reduces battery life. Per energy5.com "Degradation- Fast charging can cause the battery to degrade faster over time. I did a word search for "degradation" on this website and surprise surprise nothing showed up! This means you will have to replace your battery more often. Heat- Fast charging can cause the battery to heat up quickly. This can be a problem if your car is not equipped to handle it." Tesla Super Chargers are Class 3. Lastly, at the end of the EV's battery life, will there even be a replacement for your model? See this story: Florida Family Discovers That Used Electric Vehicles Are a Risk Not Worth Assuming - autoevolution (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/florida-family-discovers-that-used-electric-vehicles-are-a-risk-not-worth-assuming-193848.html) . Bottom line, ICE cars can run for as long as gas fuel exists in the world. EVs, when the battery dies, you risk having one REALLY expensive hazmat boat anchor.
There's an old saying… Liars figure and figures lie.:mornincoffee:

[Vermilion Villager]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.

Please show us this report......:024:

[retiredguy123]

A U.S. Department of Energy report found that, when factoring in the long-term ownership expenses, a small electric SUV costs $0.4508 per mile compared to $0.4727 per mile for a comparable gas car. That’s a difference of just $0.0219 per mile. The report concludes that it would take 15 years for the average EV to make up for its higher purchase price.
The Department of Energy also says that, if you install solar panels on your roof, it will increase the value of your house. Totally not true.

[jimjamuser]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)
Truth Press ?????huh?????? When I see an EV comparison put out by the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal, then I will believe it. Why should ANY government stimulus money be added to the cost of owning and operating an EV? The government's job is to PUSH SOCIETY in the CORRECT direction and they are doing that because operating gasoline vehicles is causing Global Warming and South Pole glaciers to melt into the sea (raising sea level and threatening cities like Miami, NY, and even Washington.
......We complain when the government does NOT do its job. Here people are complaining because the Government is doing its job.....go figure!
........The US has 8% sales of Electric new car vehicles - Europe has 20% - because their gas prices are so high.
.........That article reflects what the RICH automotive executives and oil executives want YOU the common man to think. It is propaganda designed to keep the gas auto industry BELCHING along, belching out poisonous gases, poisonous to humans and the planet Earth.
......Eventually, the gasoline vehicle will be replaced by an electric vehicle and maybe (possibly) a hydrogen energy cell.

[Heytubes]

Interesting about icebergs melting and cities being threatened. When I fill a glass with ice and water the ice will melt, but the level of water stays the same. Got to figure if that compares to melting icebergs raising the sea level how many feet.

[cherylncliff]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

For an in depth review look at EV vs. Gas: Which Cars Are Cheaper to Own? (https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/)

[Bill14564]

Interesting about icebergs melting and cities being threatened. When I fill a glass with ice and water the ice will melt, but the level of water stays the same. Got to figure if that compares to melting icebergs raising the sea level how many feet.

Wrong thread and this has been covered several times.

Melting icebergs floating in the sea will not raise the sea level due to the water in the iceberg but it will raise the level very slightly as as that water warms. The water in your glass does rise very slightly due to the water expanding as it warms but this is too little to measure.

Glaciers on land *do* raise the sea level when they break off and become icebergs. Try putting the ice in a strainer above your glass and see what happens then when it melts.

[midiwiz]

This study is so confusing, that I don't know where to start. My first thought is that EV owners don't pay anything for gasoline because their vehicle doesn't use gasoline. So, who cares about the price of gasoline? And, the cost for gasoline for an ICE vehicle is nowhere near the total cost to operate the vehicle. Here is the math:

120,000 miles/25 mpg = 4,800 gallons x $3.50/gallon = $16,800 (which is only 14 cents per mile)

Also, the study seems to calculate the cost of Government subsidies for EVs, but what about the cost for subsidies for ICE vehicles?

it really isn't all that confusing, however the part I am looking for the is cost of the recharge, it's not free.

The part though that everyone has completely missed on this topic is this.

If somehow you can 'drown' aka bankrupt all the car manufacturers in this country, (just like groceries in Chicago) you are then forced to have a government created and run auto manufacturer. It's just that simple.

[jimjamuser]

Bottom line is that you can’t put a price on driving range and the speed/convenience of reloading the vehicles power source. We need our vehicles to be able to get us between our two homes, which are 1,350 miles apart, without worries and time consuming hassles. Also, if we get stuck in bad traffic, we want to be able to heat/cool our vehicles interior space without worrying about depleting our power source.
The electric motor in an E-vehicle is almost unbreakable and does NOT almost ever need repair. It is much more dependable than a piston flopper engine. So, what if your gas vehicle overheats and throws a piston or the automatic transmission starts slipping? How do you put a price on the lesser reliability of the gas engine vehicle?
.......We are in the equivalent of 1900 in the development of the E-vehicle. In a few years, there will be NO COMPARISON with the E-vehicle being VASTLY superior!

[jimjamuser]

There are many who are anti EVs and I respect their position, but EVs are going to replace ICE. This has nothing to do with global warming. This is all profit motivated. EVs are less expensive to produce, the major cost is the batteries which all the major companies are pouring mass amounts of money to address. Another issue is charging station which again a ton of money is being spent to address. There is the issue of producing electricity again many power companies are improving their capacity knowing there is going to be future demand which means more profits. There are two others that has nothing to do with cost, which is the convince of never have to visit a gas station and no longer having to rely on a foreign government for our fuel supply.
Excellent post!

[jimjamuser]

I've owned my Tesla for just shy of 3 years. For many of those three years, I primarily charged my car at work for FREE. So no cost to charge. On the days that I did charge at home in RI, it costs about $9 to "fill the tank", and I don't charge every day. I looked on my app for my FL charging cost. I have done one charge where the car was pretty low in charge and it cost $5 on my electric bill.

As far as charging at a Tesla Supercharger. I have not done that in Florida yet (every State is different) but in RI where I'm from it cost me between $9 - $15 depending on how much of a charge I needed.

One more thing to consider, there is virtually NO maintenance on a Tesla. In RI where there is snow, the suggestion was that every two years bring the car in to have the brakes cleaned. I did that once in RI and asked "ok, now what do I need to do" they answered "see you in a couple of years".

Also, there are no oil changes either. I absolutely love this car. For me, not knowing a lot about cars it's ideal, as the car will let me know if there is anything wrong. Best car I've ever owned!
There it IS. Straight talk from a REAL owner!

[JRcorvette]

Of course the website is called "truthpress.com". Most of us recently have noticed a pattern where anything with the word "truth" in front of it is usually full of BS.

Hilarious that the article quotes "They give evidence", but then doesn't provide any evidence at all.

Not sure about the cost quoted but if you consider all the factors owning an EV is probably close to 3 time that of a gas vehicle. And don’t forget about resale of an EV… no one will want an old EV unless you are selling dirt cheap. Let’s also consider the huge hassle of driving an EV anywhere other than local. The cost of the public fast chargers is very high (double or triple) the cost of gas.

[Bill14564]

Not sure about the cost quoted but if you consider all the factors owning an EV is probably close to 3 time that of a gas vehicle. And don’t forget about resale of an EV… no one will want an old EV unless you are selling dirt cheap. Let’s also consider the huge hassle of driving an EV anywhere other than local. The cost of the public fast chargers is very high (double or triple) the cost of gas.

All these claims, other than the resale which few if any have experienced, have been disputed by those who actually own an EV. Do you have anything to back up your claims and prove them wrong?

[MrChip72]

Interesting about icebergs melting and cities being threatened. When I fill a glass with ice and water the ice will melt, but the level of water stays the same. Got to figure if that compares to melting icebergs raising the sea level how many feet.

Sounds like you may have never seen an actual iceberg or understand what they are.

They are literally massive chunks of snow and ice that are floating on top of the oceans with a weight usually ranging from 100k tonnes to 10 million tons each. Average size is around the equivalent of a 15 foot skyscraper. There are several millions of these icebergs, so it's not hard to do the math and understand that it will raise the water levels.

An iceberg is nothing like an ice cube. Ice cubes don't float on top of the liquid in your glass.

[rsmurano]

You do know that these figures include many things, not just charging costs which can vary depending on what the local utility charges per kWh and how much the charging station wants to charge you. As for Ford losing a lot of $$$$ on their EV’s, check this out:
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/ford-losses-by-VE-32000/70571/#

Also, each state will be assessing each EV owner some kind of mileage tax since we pay for roads thru the sale of gasoline. This will be a new expense for EV owners.
How about the battery disposal cost for the EV owner?
The Costs and Potential Benefits of Investing in Sustainable Electric Car Battery Disposal Practices (https://energy5.com/the-costs-and-potential-benefits-of-investing-in-sustainable-electric-car-battery-disposal-practices#)

Ev’s don’t need maintenance or servicing? Wrong. If you look at the Kelley blue book website, you will see this:

Our experts found that over five years, the owner of a Tesla Model 3 can expect to spend an estimated $3,115 on maintenance, or $623 annually. That’s slightly higher than many gas-powered competitors. For example, maintenance for the Genesis G70 costs $2,621 over five years.

Maintaining Your Tesla: Everything You Need To Know - Kelley Blue Book (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/maintaining-your-tesla/)

The largest maintenance cost is the replacement of the battery. In so many years, the owner will have to pay for a new battery which will cost many thousands of $$$$ plus disposal fee. This cost alone is greater than the cost of a gas powered engine rebuild, if 1 is needed in this short period of time. I know of Porsches and Mercedes with engines over 300,000 miles that haven’t had anything major done to their engines, and then you have diesel engines that can go double those miles before a major overhaul.

[dhdallas]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)

The article is completely ridiculous and just more propaganda from the "I hate electric vehicles people" who also hate anything remotely beneficial to the environment, deny climate change, don't believe in science, & think coal & oil will last forever.

[Bill14564]

You do know that these figures include many things, not just charging costs which can vary depending on what the local utility charges per kWh and how much the charging station wants to charge you. As for Ford losing a lot of $$$$ on their EV’s, check this out:
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/ford-losses-by-VE-32000/70571/#

Also, each state will be assessing each EV owner some kind of mileage tax since we pay for roads thru the sale of gasoline. This will be a new expense for EV owners.
How about the battery disposal cost for the EV owner?
The Costs and Potential Benefits of Investing in Sustainable Electric Car Battery Disposal Practices (https://energy5.com/the-costs-and-potential-benefits-of-investing-in-sustainable-electric-car-battery-disposal-practices#)

Ev’s don’t need maintenance or servicing? Wrong. If you look at the Kelley blue book website, you will see this:

Our experts found that over five years, the owner of a Tesla Model 3 can expect to spend an estimated $3,115 on maintenance, or $623 annually. That’s slightly higher than many gas-powered competitors. For example, maintenance for the Genesis G70 costs $2,621 over five years.

Maintaining Your Tesla: Everything You Need To Know - Kelley Blue Book (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/maintaining-your-tesla/)

The largest maintenance cost is the replacement of the battery. In so many years, the owner will have to pay for a new battery which will cost many thousands of $$$$ plus disposal fee. This cost alone is greater than the cost of a gas powered engine rebuild, if 1 is needed in this short period of time. I know of Porsches and Mercedes with engines over 300,000 miles that haven’t had anything major done to their engines, and then you have diesel engines that can go double those miles before a major overhaul.

It amazes me that so many still are talking about the cost of replacing a battery. IT DOESN'T HAPPEN. With a warranty of eight years or more, any replacement cost will be covered. And you know companies are not going broke replacing batteries.

Battery disposal cost? If all these batteries are being replaced by the owners then there would be some information on this cost. There is no information, likely because the cost does not exist but few would even know since batteries are not being replaced.

Mileage charge? WHEN it happens it will be something to think about. IF it happens it will likely be about $200 per year. Remember, states are currently paying people to purchase EVs, it might be some time before they turn that around and start charging them.

Maintenance costs? It would be interesting to hear from some owners just what their maintenance costs are. For example, do Teslas truly require two wheel alignments every year and do Tesla owners really have that work done?

Clearly, there are dozens of articles on how expensive owning an EV ought to be or how much experts calculate maintenance should cost or how much a replacement battery might set you back. What there doesn't seem to be are dozens of articles from regretful Tesla owners with sticker shock. I wonder why.

[Lyarham]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/) electric is the wave of the future

[SeaCros]

Well said

[revfiddle]

There are 20 pages of the Bennett study and 120+ pages of the Argonne study to read and digest but a few things struck me right from the start:


- The Bennett study adds the Federal and State rebates onto the price of the EV though there is no indication they were subtracted from the price being used
- The Bennett study adds transmission and distribution costs even though those costs are actually being collected by the electric company (check your bill)
- The Bennett study has three costs, including CAFE credits, that are "Costs to Buyers of Gasoline Vehicles," totaling $27,800. If these numbers are accurate then subtracting them from the price of the ICE and HEV models would mean the auto makers would give us the car for free with a $1,000 check sitting on the seat.


Again, there are nearly 150 pages to read and digest but something about the Truth seems a bit dishonest.

Thanks for posting. I go about 15,000 miles a year. I own a PHV and seldom buy gas, every two months on average. I charge the batteries in my garage and it adds very little to my electric bill.
With the PHV I have very few oil changes and maintenance because the gas motor hardly ever turns on. I can see that when I get an EV, I'll save at least $120 a month compared to an ICE vehicle for fuel, and reduce maintenance costs.

[jimjamuser]

Not sure if this has been answered (didn't read the whole thing) but I'll give it a shot. My car gets a bit more than 4 miles per kWh of electricity but let's go with 4 for easy math. It is the base, cheapest, $32,000 model 3 and currently can go 260 miles on a full battery. 260/4=65 kWh. Superchargers are 30-35 cents per kWh and 97% of the energy coming out of the charger is going into the battery so 65kWh/.097% efficient X $0.35 per kWh =$23.45

We're paying a little under 13 cents/kWh for electricity here in TV so at home...where almost all of the charging happens...works out to $8.70 for a full charge. (One of the big things that people don't understand is that you charge at home at night, you don't charge at a supercharger unless you are on a trip)

Let's compare to our other car, 2017 Chrysler pacifica. 260 miles at 25mph = 10.4 gallons of gas. Let's say we're paying $3.20 per and that puts us at $33.28 for the same number of miles.

So in summary, a little cheaper at a Supercharger but only 1/4th of the cost per mile if charging at home. I hope this helps!

Joe
One tiny little advantage of E-vehicles that is rarely talked about is the IMPROVED center of gravity of E-vehicles over gas vehicles. Basically, the batteries are heavy BUT, they are located LOW in the vehicle. With a piston-type gas vehicle, the heavy engine sits up very high. An improved center of gravity allows the E-vehicle to accelerate better and decelerate (brake) better than the higher center of gravity of the gas piston flopper engine.
.......Also, the rotary engine of the E-vehicle is superior and helps reliability.

[dewilson58]

electric is the wave of the future

keep saying it, it could happen. :ohdear:

[jimjamuser]

It would be nice to know if they took everything into account....costs for raw materials, healthy costs due to pollution, etc. etc. etc. I have not seen an exhaustive, non biased report yet (but would love to see one!)

However, assuming it's true, it's only going to get better over time and the electric car is so much better for almost every use case that it's an obvious choice for the consumer. IMO of course ;)

Joe
Not only is the breathing in of polluted gas exhaust a bad thing for human health. And the smaller engine vehicles like GOLF CARTS, lawnmowers, and gas blowers produce a GREAT amount of bad air to breathe. The CO2 rises and hurts humans again by warming the planet (like we experienced this summer in the entire southern half of the US).

[Justputt]

As electric vehicles become more common, experts worry they could pose a safety risk for other drivers - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-vehicle-safety-heavy-battery/)
As heavy EVs proliferate, their weight may be a drag on safety (https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/as-heavy-evs-proliferate-their-weight-may-be-a-drag-on-safety)

[Nellmack]

How much do replacement batteries cost in a few years?

I had my first Tesla for 7 years (135,000 miles) and my daily charge capacity went from 220 miles down to 216 miles.

Translation - In 7 years my battery dropped 4 miles of charging capacity. I can't say for sure how long it will last because I traded it in for a new Tesla but I would guess it had many years of useful life left. Longer than I want a car.

[jimjamuser]

Interesting about icebergs melting and cities being threatened. When I fill a glass with ice and water the ice will melt, but the level of water stays the same. Got to figure if that compares to melting icebergs raising the sea level how many feet.
It's NOT a good analogy. In Antarctica, the ice is on top of firm ground. That would be like having an ice cube sitting on top of a slide dumping into a glass - then as that ice cube melted, the water level WOULD GO UP. Anyway, it is a KNOWN fact that in the last 10 years, the earth's ocean level has gone up. And at an INCREASING rate (enough to scare scientists) each succeeding year. And remember that we had a RECORD hot summer in the US and the whole world. Well, that is predicted to continue for , at least, the next 8 years.
......I hope that this helps.

[Wondering]

I knew it was very expensive to own and operate an EV, but this is way more than what I thought.


Cost of Driving Electric Vehicle Equal to Paying $17.33 Per Gallon of Gasoline, Study Finds - Truth Press (https://truthpress.com/news/cost-of-driving-electric-vehicle-equal-to-paying-17-33-per-gallon-of-gasoline-study-finds/)
Your source is not a legitimate conveyer of factual information. There is no truth to what you posted. Do some legitimate fact checking before you post garbage!

[ThirdOfFive]

The electric motor in an E-vehicle is almost unbreakable and does NOT almost ever need repair. It is much more dependable than a piston flopper engine. So, what if your gas vehicle overheats and throws a piston or the automatic transmission starts slipping? How do you put a price on the lesser reliability of the gas engine vehicle?
.......We are in the equivalent of 1900 in the development of the E-vehicle. In a few years, there will be NO COMPARISON with the E-vehicle being VASTLY superior!
Interesting, just how quickly these discussions become adversarial. They don't have to be. The fact of the matter is that ownership of an EV, or an ICE, makes more or less sense depending on the needs of the consumer. It is NOT a "one size fits all" issue. There is more than ample room for both.

One big issue is weather. EVs make much more sense in states like Florida, where the weather rarely goes below freezing even in the middle of winter. Cold weather takes a toll on an EV: if you're out driving when it is -20 F. the range of your EV is going to go down. The most obvious reason is that a lot more energy will be used just to keep the occupants warm and the windows defrosted, but there is more to it than that. Energy is needed to keep the battery warm as well; "EVs are designed to heat or cool off the battery in order for the battery to perform at its best. And because the optimal temperature for most batteries is between 15 and 30 degrees celsius, part of the energy is used to cover this need." (monta dot com). Add to that the fact that distances traveled here in Florida are less overall than in, say, North Dakota, Minnesota or Wyoming, for example, and a winter road trip in an EV in below-zero conditions all of a sudden poses dangers and challenges that just aren't there in an ICE-powered vehicle.

I'd certainly consider owning an EV here in Florida. Back home in Minnesota? Nope.

[dewilson58]

I'd certainly consider owning an EV here in Florida. Back home in Minnesota? Nope.

But heat is a killer of batteries.

Heat is worse for car batteries than cold | verifythis.com (https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/summer-guide-verify/hot-weather-heat-car-batteries-summer-cold-weather-winter-comparison-fact-check/536-014a3582-22a8-413f-a5d7-700e125947a4#:~:text=Yes%2C%20heat%20is%20worse%20 for,fluids%20and%20weaken%20its%20charge).

[ThirdOfFive]

But heat is a killer of batteries.

Heat is worse for car batteries than cold | verifythis.com (https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/summer-guide-verify/hot-weather-heat-car-batteries-summer-cold-weather-winter-comparison-fact-check/536-014a3582-22a8-413f-a5d7-700e125947a4#:~:text=Yes%2C%20heat%20is%20worse%20 for,fluids%20and%20weaken%20its%20charge).
Sophistic. The article quoted is referring to how heat damages batteries by evaporating the electrolyte. However EV batteries don't contain liquid electrolyte:

"With a chemical reaction very similar to lithium-ion technology, solid state EV batteries replace the liquid-based electrolyte with a solid one." EV battery guide: what are electric car batteries made of? - RAC

[Bill14564]

But heat is a killer of batteries.

Heat is worse for car batteries than cold | verifythis.com (https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/summer-guide-verify/hot-weather-heat-car-batteries-summer-cold-weather-winter-comparison-fact-check/536-014a3582-22a8-413f-a5d7-700e125947a4#:~:text=Yes%2C%20heat%20is%20worse%20 for,fluids%20and%20weaken%20its%20charge).

From the article:
Yes, heat is worse for car batteries than cold. Heat is the number one culprit behind car battery failure because high temperatures can evaporate your battery's vital fluids and weaken its charge.

There really is not a lot of lithium evaporating from EV batteries.

Heat is bad for lithium batteries as well which we all know from experience with our cell phones. It *seems* like the Teslas attempt to deal with this. Walking through a parking lot yesterday I passed two Teslas with fans blowing but no occupants. At the time I thought it might be to keep the cabin cool in anticipation of the drivers returning. Now I wonder if the car was trying to keep the batteries cool.

[Bill14564]

Sorry, I thought you were paying that much for gasoline but you’re saying that’s what it cost to charge an EV is equal to $17.33 for a gal. of gas, that’s exactly why the present govt.wants EV’s. I’ve been saying that since they’ve been selling these expensive EV. Sorry my mistake about you paying $17.33 for a gal. of gas!

Not exactly.

Some calculate an equivalent cost per gallon like this:
- A typical EV gets 4 miles per kWH
- One kWH might cost 12 cents
- That make about 3 cents per mile for the "fuel" for the electric vehicle
- A typical gasoline car gets 30 mpg
- At 4 cents per mile and 30 mpg you get an equivalent cost per gallon of $1.21 for the electric vehicle (if gas was $1.21/gallon then the 30mpg car and the EV would have the same cost per mile)
- The article uses this number

The article says that the cost of electricity isn't the only cost. It claims the price of an EV is subsidized in many ways like Federal tax rebates, not paying gas taxes, not paying for the electric company to build a bigger infrastructure, and even penalties imposed on car manufacturers. The article says that when you add all these up they show that your EV is receiving $48K of free benefits. Rather than claiming the EV should cost $48K more, the article computes an equivalent cost per gallon of $17.33.

No one is paying $17.33 for gas.
No one is paying $17.33 for electricity.
In fact, no one is paying the $48K the article calculates.
The article just attributes this cost to the EV in order to come up with a scary number.

[Two Bills]

Not exactly.

Some calculate an equivalent cost per gallon like this:
- A typical EV gets 4 miles per kWH
- One kWH might cost 12 cents
- That make about 3 cents per mile for the "fuel" for the electric vehicle
- A typical gasoline car gets 30 mpg
- At 4 cents per mile and 30 mpg you get an equivalent cost per gallon of $1.21 for the electric vehicle (if gas was $1.21/gallon then the 30mpg car and the EV would have the same cost per mile)
- The article uses this number

The article says that the cost of electricity isn't the only cost. It claims the price of an EV is subsidized in many ways like Federal tax rebates, not paying gas taxes, not paying for the electric company to build a bigger infrastructure, and even penalties imposed on car manufacturers. The article says that when you add all these up they show that your EV is receiving $48K of free benefits. Rather than claiming the EV should cost $48K more, the article computes an equivalent cost per gallon of $17.33.

No one is paying $17.33 for gas.
No one is paying $17.33 for electricity.
In fact, no one is paying the $48K the article calculates.
The article just attributes this cost to the EV in order to come up with a scary number.

Good job article used US price for electricity.
In UK our price is around 41 cents a kWH

[Bill14564]

Good job article used US price for electricity.
In UK our price is around 41 cents a kWH

Ouch! If I remember correctly your gasoline is also more expensive but not by a factor of four (not $12/gal), right? So the savings in fuel would not be as great for you.

[dewilson58]

Sophistic. The article quoted is referring to how heat damages batteries by evaporating the electrolyte. However EV batteries don't contain liquid electrolyte:



EV batteries degrade faster in hot weather: What owners can do (https://news.yahoo.com/ev-batteries-degrade-faster-hot-160055789.html#:~:text=In%20a%20recent%20study%20o f,cars%20in%20cold%20climate%20zones.&text=That's%20because%20higher%20levels%20of,that% 20make%20a%20battery%20work).

[tophcfa]

EV batteries degrade faster in hot weather: What owners can do (https://news.yahoo.com/ev-batteries-degrade-faster-hot-160055789.html#:~:text=In%20a%20recent%20study%20o f,cars%20in%20cold%20climate%20zones.&text=That's%20because%20higher%20levels%20of,that% 20make%20a%20battery%20work).

That’s why I always store the batteries for our power tools and e bikes inside the house during the hotter months when they aren’t being used. I figure either way, if they start on fire the house is cooked regardless of whether the fire starts in the garage or a spare bedroom and they are less likely to combust if kept cool.

[jimjamuser]

As electric vehicles become more common, experts worry they could pose a safety risk for other drivers - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-vehicle-safety-heavy-battery/)
As heavy EVs proliferate, their weight may be a drag on safety (https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/as-heavy-evs-proliferate-their-weight-may-be-a-drag-on-safety)
One factor that this study FAILED to acknowledge is that although the EV is heavier than an equivalent ICE vehicle, the EV has a LOWER center of gravity, which allows the EV to STOP better than the ICE vehicle. The lower center of gravity makes up for the greater weight of the EV. And if an ice vehicle hits an EV, then the greater weight of the EV tends to be PROTECTIVE for its passengers.

[bopat]

How many minutes does it take to get a full charge?

Not to dance around the question, but it's largely irrelevant.

When you drive around home, you plug it in when you're done, so it's always got a "full tank" (although you rarely, if ever charge it to 100%. I'm usually charged to around 60%, that's plenty.)

When you're traveling, the Tesla adds the superchargers to the trip according to temperature, elevation, traffic, charger utilization, wind speed and direction, driving style, among other factors. It even adjusts as you're driving.

When we travel, we find charge locations are spaced out around the same amount of time we'd like to use the bathroom and stretch our legs. So we stop, plug in, use the restroom, get a snack, and when we're done, the car is usually ready for the next leg of the trip.

[jimjamuser]

Not sure about the cost quoted but if you consider all the factors owning an EV is probably close to 3 time that of a gas vehicle. And don’t forget about resale of an EV… no one will want an old EV unless you are selling dirt cheap. Let’s also consider the huge hassle of driving an EV anywhere other than local. The cost of the public fast chargers is very high (double or triple) the cost of gas.
All those negative factors are NOT true, but even if they were, then in another 2 years the playing field will completely change (improve) for EVs -- better batteries that are lighter, better and cheaper charging stations. Lower cost because they are easier to manufacture.

[Two Bills]

Ouch! If I remember correctly your gasoline is also more expensive but not by a factor of four (not $12/gal), right? So the savings in fuel would not be as great for you.

About double.

[Topspinmo]

The article is completely ridiculous and just more propaganda from the "I hate electric vehicles people" who also hate anything remotely beneficial to the environment, deny climate change, don't believe in science, & think coal & oil will last forever.


Coal and gas better last for ever cause they won’t be anything electric with out it.

[jimjamuser]

Interesting, just how quickly these discussions become adversarial. They don't have to be. The fact of the matter is that ownership of an EV, or an ICE, makes more or less sense depending on the needs of the consumer. It is NOT a "one size fits all" issue. There is more than ample room for both.

One big issue is weather. EVs make much more sense in states like Florida, where the weather rarely goes below freezing even in the middle of winter. Cold weather takes a toll on an EV: if you're out driving when it is -20 F. the range of your EV is going to go down. The most obvious reason is that a lot more energy will be used just to keep the occupants warm and the windows defrosted, but there is more to it than that. Energy is needed to keep the battery warm as well; "EVs are designed to heat or cool off the battery in order for the battery to perform at its best. And because the optimal temperature for most batteries is between 15 and 30 degrees celsius, part of the energy is used to cover this need." (monta dot com). Add to that the fact that distances traveled here in Florida are less overall than in, say, North Dakota, Minnesota or Wyoming, for example, and a winter road trip in an EV in below-zero conditions all of a sudden poses dangers and challenges that just aren't there in an ICE-powered vehicle.

I'd certainly consider owning an EV here in Florida. Back home in Minnesota? Nope.
What is said about low temp affecting EV battery performance is TRUE......for today, but I believe that in the NEAR future that most all EV downsides will be designed away. I believe EVs today are like ICE vehicles around 1900. In other words, EVs have GREAT improvement potential. I like to think that I am adversarial to the concept (not people) that EVs will have bad downsides forever.
........And I am NOT advocating the immediate 100% takeover of ICE vehicles by EVs. I believe (and have previously stated) that if the US could get up to 30% of new car and truck sales being EVs, that would be enough to start to reverse the Global Warming trend - also if Europe and the rest of the world increased about 5% more of their new car sales. That would also give the US a stronger hand in dealing with Saudi Arabia and other adversaries.
........A fringe benefit would be cleaner air in the US and fewer lung disorders. People would live longer and healthier lives.

[Bill14564]

Coal and gas better last for ever cause they won’t be anything electric with out it.

Unless we produce electricity with some combination of wind, solar, hydro, thermal, hydrogen(?), nuclear fission, nuclear fusion(?), or something we haven't discovered yet.

[jimjamuser]

Not only is the breathing in of polluted gas exhaust a bad thing for human health. And the smaller engine vehicles like GOLF CARTS, lawnmowers, and gas blowers produce a GREAT amount of bad air to breathe. The CO2 rises and hurts humans again by warming the planet (like we experienced this summer in the entire southern half of the US).
There is EVEN another nuisance irritating factor caused by large and small ICE engine devices.......NOISE. Noise is more detrimental to human health than is generally realized. And The Villages is the king of MEGA NOISE. Everywhere I went today, from the pickleball court to the softball field and back home........I was serenaded by the constant WHINE of high VOLUME grass cutting, limb cutting, and trimming ICE small engine NOISE. It was irritating. It would be a nice rule that the landscaping workers in The Villages would be required to use quieter battery-powered landscaping equipment. I don't think that it is too much to ask for a Community this large to be able to think about the concept of NOISE and its harmful effects. Not every old person here is deaf. We have many Doctors here in The Villages that could CONFIRM harmful effects of noise.
........When we are talking about EVs versus ICE engine vehicles and small engines, I think NOISE is a factor to consider.
.....And also the landscaping workers would NOT be exposed to such high NOISE that will cause them to lose hearing capacity in a few years.

[Vermilion Villager]

Coal and gas better last for ever cause they won’t be anything electric with out it.
OMG Really?!?!?!?!:1rotfl::1rotfl:
Tomorrow around 8:00am look East:welcome:

[Bill14564]

Anyway you look at it EV’s are more expensive to operate when you figure everything into it. Plus you could lose it because they’re unsafe! Personally I don’t care how you figure it, they take a lot of money to buy & operate. I worked at Ford for 38 yrs. & I saw what goes on behind closed doors. Thanks for your explanation though. But I still think our president is wrong to shut down our oil productions to sell his EV’s because he wants to get a name for himself.

The way I look at it, an EV would save at least 6 cents per mile (about $700yr) plus $75 every 10,000 miles plus air filters, the random timing belt, and the occasional spark plug.

Saving nearly $1,000/yr is not what I would consider "more expensive to operate."

The statistics don't support characterizing EVs as unsafe.

I don't own one because of my long-range driving habits. When I get tired of driving that far on a regular basis I will probably buy one.

[Two Bills]

. But I still think our president is wrong to shut down our oil productions to sell his EV’s because he wants to get a name for himself.

The U.S. Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration reported that American oil production in the first week of October hit 13.2 million barrels per day, passing the previous record set in 2020 by 100,000 barrels. Weekly domestic oil production has doubled from the first week in October 2012 to now.13 Oct 2023

[star50]

I have owner a 2014 plug in hybrid since it was new and have nothing but great things to say about it. Being in TV means I have to purchase gas only a few times in six months since most trips are short. My electric bill is comparable to my neighbors who use their AC more than I do. No complaints after 130,000 miles.

[Pugchief]

OMG Really?!?!?!?!:1rotfl::1rotfl:
Tomorrow around 8:00am look East:welcome:

Unless it's cloudy.

There is currently lack of reliability with solar (and wind) including both production and storage. That may improve in time, we'll see.

[MorTech]

Hertz bailing out of EV vertuesignalism.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkPXa5SRwk

Profits be nowhere.

[bopat]

I've got an EV and I'm looking to get rid of it and buy a gas car.

Before I get a gas car, I've got a bunch of questions:
- I hear they run on gasoline, will that explode in my garage?
- How will I fuel up the car when the gas station is closed?
- What comes out of the tailpipe, won't that kill things?
- The engine is in front, will fumes leak out the vents into the car?
- When I put fuel in the car, can I catch a virus from the pump handle? Do the gas stations clean the pumps?
- What's the range?
- What's it like going to an unfamiliar gas station along a highway? Are they safe?
- What's a "tune-up?"
- What's "periodic maintenance?"
- There's a huge heavy motor in the front, if I get into an accident won't that get shoved into the car?
- I hear the engines and all that stuff get really hot! Can I drive over grass without setting it on fire?
- With all that extra weight up high, won't the car roll over easier than an EV?

Hee hee, just kidding, I don't want a gas car.

[Cliff Fr]

Using the AC on an electric car drops the driving range quite a bit. Because of that manufacturers have had to find ways to make the AC system more efficient. GM has done this by using a smaller compressor and a highly toxic gas as a refrigerant. Anyone working on the system has to have special equipment and wear ppe. The gas is so toxic that they have to use a totally separate system in the vehicle for it.

[Bill14564]

Using the AC on an electric car drops the driving range quite a bit. Because of that manufacturers have had to find ways to make the AC system more efficient. GM has done this by using a smaller compressor and a highly toxic gas as a refrigerant. Anyone working on the system has to have special equipment and wear ppe. The gas is so toxic that they have to use a totally separate system in the vehicle for it.

It would be interesting to read an article about that. Can you provide a link to one?

[Two Bills]

Using the AC on an electric car drops the driving range quite a bit. Because of that manufacturers have had to find ways to make the AC system more efficient. GM has done this by using a smaller compressor and a highly toxic gas as a refrigerant. Anyone working on the system has to have special equipment and wear ppe. The gas is so toxic that they have to use a totally separate system in the vehicle for it.

From what I can see GM use HFO-1234yf refrigerant, which is in general use for most modern EVs and ICE vehicles.

[MrChip72]

The U.S. Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration reported that American oil production in the first week of October hit 13.2 million barrels per day, passing the previous record set in 2020 by 100,000 barrels. Weekly domestic oil production has doubled from the first week in October 2012 to now.13 Oct 2023

The US was exporting 2 million barrels/day in 2012. In 2023, the exports are now over 120 million barrels/day. It would appear that much of this extra domestic production is being exported to other countries.

U.S. Exports of Crude Oil (Thousand Barrels) (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCREXUS1&f=M)

[Fastskiguy]

Using the AC on an electric car drops the driving range quite a bit. Because of that manufacturers have had to find ways to make the AC system more efficient. GM has done this by using a smaller compressor and a highly toxic gas as a refrigerant. Anyone working on the system has to have special equipment and wear ppe. The gas is so toxic that they have to use a totally separate system in the vehicle for it.

Not sure about the toxic part but it’s true, ac cuts your range. Heat probably does too.

[Keefelane66]

It would be interesting to read an article about that. Can you provide a link to one?
I have found posters on TOTV make stuff up. Since GM is converting to this new refrigerant would anyone feel safe in a petroleum operated vehicle with GM’s track record.

[Pugchief]

Not sure about the toxic part but it’s true, ac cuts your range. Heat probably does too.

Actually, so does driving with the windows open (increased resistance, reduced aerodynamics). You can't win.

[Bill14564]

I have found posters on TOTV make stuff up. Since GM is converting to this new refrigerant would anyone fell safe in a petroleum operated vehicle with GM’s track record.

I'm not surprised at all that no link has been provided. I can't find anything about a new refrigerant either.

GM *did* make a change back in 2012 that was controversial at the time. According to articles that google found, GM switched to the R1234YF refrigerant that other manufacturers found to be too dangerous. Perhaps this is the highly toxic refrigerant the poster was referring to. It is currently available from Walmart and Amazon.

[jebartle]

Yipsters! Lots of info, good and bad.

[Two Bills]

The US was exporting 2 million barrels/day in 2012. In 2023, the exports are now over 120 million barrels/day. It would appear that much of this extra domestic production is being exported to other countries.

U.S. Exports of Crude Oil (Thousand Barrels) (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCREXUS1&f=M)

Sort if kills the argument that governments are stopping oil production.
Oil companies are reaping record profits.