Nat Assoc of Realtors found guilty of commission collusion

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Missouri jury finds NAR, brokerages guilty of conspiring to inflate commissions - HousingWire (https://www.housingwire.com/articles/missouri-jury-finds-nar-brokerages-guilty-of-conspiring-to-inflate-commissions/#:~:text=A%20Kansas%20City%20jury%20has,Burnett%20 buyer%20broker%20commission%20lawsuit).

It was fun for them while it lasted, now go search for a cheaper realtor!

[Normal]

The NAR was due for this fall. They are a monopoly in a sense. 5 and 6 percent commissions on million dollar homes along with shadowing what might not benefit the realtor the most are so unfair, and certainly not egalitarian.

The savoy seller just lists their homes on Zillow and Realty.com. When they sell all they need to have is a title company or lawyer. The whole thing costs less than a couple thousand.

Their scams reflect the life insurance salesmen of the 70s or the insurance writing offices of the 80s. They got a whole lot of cash for doing nothing.

[dewilson58]

Aren't those the ethical ones................the ones who took a test and signed something??

[retiredguy123]

Note that "The Properties of The Villages" is not a member of the NAR, and none of their agents are Realtors.

[Normal]

Aren't those the ethical ones................the ones who took a test and signed something??

Ya, you know the ones, “We don’t work for the seller, we work for you.”

LOL

[retiredguy123]

Ya, you know the ones, “We don’t work for the seller, we work for you.”

LOL
Yes. The biggest real estate scam is for a seller's agent to convince a buyer that he/she is representing the buyer. I cringe every time a see a poster refer to an agent as "my agent". In almost every real estate sale, the buyer does not have an agent.

[manaboutown]

This is long overdue.

[Two Bills]

I have always been amazed at how high US. estate agent fees are.
In UK wife and I have never paid more than 1% agent fee.
Sold last two houses ourselves just using a Conveyance agent
Cost under $850 all in.

[Topspinmo]

I have always been amazed at how high US. estate agent fees are.
In UK wife and I have never paid more than 1% agent fee.
Sold last two houses ourselves just using a Conveyance agent
Cost under $850 all in.


What???? Crown don’t get their cut?

[Stu from NYC]

What???? Crown don’t get their cut?

The king does not have the power he used to have

[frayedends]

Haters always going to hate. Realtors can absolutely be buyer's agents. The commission structure was that the Seller's agent lists the property in MLS with the commission structure (such as 2.5% to seller agent, 2.5% to buyer agent). The buyer's agent should absolutely be representing the buyer's interest. Of course, they want to get a property under agreement and sold, but if they don't do a good job representing the buyer then word of mouth quickly makes that agent lose sales and not do well.

Now as far as this lawsuit it won't change anything really, except how the commission structure is presented. Currently it all comes out of the seller's proceeds. What could happen going foward is the buyer's agent charges commission to the buyer. The seller has a lower price because maybe they aren't paying 5 or 6%. It all comes out in the wash.

Realtors can't work for free. I've seen a buyer's agent take a buyer to over 70 homes over the course of 6 months. People expect that and then not pay them anything when they buy something?

[margaretmattson]

Haters always going to hate. Realtors can absolutely be buyer's agents. The commission structure was that the Seller's agent lists the property in MLS with the commission structure (such as 2.5% to seller agent, 2.5% to buyer agent). The buyer's agent should absolutely be representing the buyer's interest. Of course, they want to get a property under agreement and sold, but if they don't do a good job representing the buyer then word of mouth quickly makes that agent lose sales and not do well.

Now as far as this lawsuit it won't change anything really, except how the commission structure is presented. Currently it all comes out of the seller's proceeds. What could happen going foward is the buyer's agent charges commission to the buyer. The seller has a lower price because maybe they aren't paying 5 or 6%. It all comes out in the wash.

Realtors can't work for free. I've seen a buyer's agent take a buyer to over 70 homes over the course of 6 months. People expect that and then not pay them anything when they buy something?The job of a realtor is to sell the home. This would mean any realtor represents the seller. You can not play (and charge) both sides of the fence.

[frayedends]

The job of a realtor is to sell the home. This would mean any realtor represents the seller. You can not play (and charge) both sides of the fence.

It seems you are referring to an agent that has the listing, the buyer comes in without an agent and the Listing agent does the deal alone. In that case, the listing agent is possibly taking both sides of the commission (unless they pass along the savings). But they have an ethical duty to tell the buyer that they are representing the seller.

That's not how buyer's agent works. Now, I will admit I'm in Massachusetts and don't know what could be different in Florida. But a buyer contacts an agent and wants to see a home. If that agent is not the listing agent then he/she becomes the buyer's agent. They may or may not sign a buyer's agent contract. That agent should be advising the buyer on home value, helping with financing needs and legal needs, etc. They should be bringing the buyer to similar homes, working with inspection. They need to know the rules for FHA loans (you wouldn't believe how many realtors miss that info).

The agent I know works tirelessly, on the phone at all hours, out at appointments all day and night, 7 days/week, working with their buyers (or sellers if they have the listing). She works way more hours than my 9-5 job that's for sure.

It really aggravates me when people say they get paid for nothing. They have no idea how much work is involved.

[Two Bills]

What???? Crown don’t get their cut?


They don't need it.
"Crown Industry" runs at a profit, and pays millions into Government coffers.
How much does a President cost to run?

[margaretmattson]

It seems you are referring to an agent that has the listing, the buyer comes in without an agent and the Listing agent does the deal alone. In that case, the listing agent is possibly taking both sides of the commission (unless they pass along the savings). But they have an ethical duty to tell the buyer that they are representing the seller.

That's not how buyer's agent works. Now, I will admit I'm in Massachusetts and don't know what could be different in Florida. But a buyer contacts an agent and wants to see a home. If that agent is not the listing agent then he/she becomes the buyer's agent. They may or may not sign a buyer's agent contract. That agent should be advising the buyer on home value, helping with financing needs and legal needs, etc. They should be bringing the buyer to similar homes, working with inspection. They need to know the rules for FHA loans (you wouldn't believe how many realtors miss that info).

The agent I know works tirelessly, on the phone at all hours, out at appointments all day and night, 7 days/week, working with their buyers (or sellers if they have the listing). She works way more hours than my 9-5 job that's for sure.

It really aggravates me when people say they get paid for nothing. They have no idea how much work is involved.And, this is how a lawsuit was won. A realtor cannot be a buyer's agent. The job of a realtor is to represent the seller at all times. A potential buyer does not need to contract with a realtor.

[BrianL99]

It seems you are referring to an agent that has the listing, the buyer comes in without an agent and the Listing agent does the deal alone. In that case, the listing agent is possibly taking both sides of the commission (unless they pass along the savings). But they have an ethical duty to tell the buyer that they are representing the seller.

That's not how buyer's agent works. Now, I will admit I'm in Massachusetts and don't know what could be different in Florida. But a buyer contacts an agent and wants to see a home. If that agent is not the listing agent then he/she becomes the buyer's agent. They may or may not sign a buyer's agent contract. That agent should be advising the buyer on home value, helping with financing needs and legal needs, etc. They should be bringing the buyer to similar homes, working with inspection. They need to know the rules for FHA loans (you wouldn't believe how many realtors miss that info).

The agent I know works tirelessly, on the phone at all hours, out at appointments all day and night, 7 days/week, working with their buyers (or sellers if they have the listing). She works way more hours than my 9-5 job that's for sure.

It really aggravates me when people say they get paid for nothing. They have no idea how much work is involved.

The flawed logic, is the Buyer's Broker doesn't get paid, unless their client buys a home ... so now who is the Agent really representing? They're representing themselves. Buyers' brokers and dual agencies, are the biggest scam ever foisted upon the home buying public.

[Normal]

Haters always going to hate. Realtors can absolutely be buyer's agents.

Realtors can't work for free. I've seen a buyer's agent take a buyer to over 70 homes over the course of 6 months. People expect that and then not pay them anything when they buy something?

Nobody here is a hater. Just trying to help. Why pay more for something that isn’t hard to do? 70 homes shown over time would equal about 70 hours. What should a salesman make for their 70 hours? 1,000(17 dollars an hour)…2,000 (34 dollars an hour)….maybe 3,000 (51 dollars an hour) Exactly what is the homeowner charged to list? 5%? A 400k home would be a 20, 000 (340 dollars a hour) dollars loss. I challenge the possibility that many homes are even shown that many times before an offer and sale.

It’s very simple to list on Zillow etc. Just take the photos you like…about 30. Upload them and wait and see. A serious homebuyer is usually hitting the site for new listings. The potential buyer will even get emails from the site. It costs virtually nothing to do so why not? We listed our home for nearly an half million and got an offer in less than a week. The title company walked us through the process and we were closing about a month out. They printed the disclosure forms, etc., supplied the notary and even had the wire done for us. We paid around 1,400 dollars for the whole effort.

Wouldn’t you want more than 20,000 dollars for taking pictures, filling out boxes and uploading to a very friendly user website? It’s almost more work to use Facebook than it is to list a house.

[retiredguy123]

Haters always going to hate. Realtors can absolutely be buyer's agents. The commission structure was that the Seller's agent lists the property in MLS with the commission structure (such as 2.5% to seller agent, 2.5% to buyer agent). The buyer's agent should absolutely be representing the buyer's interest. Of course, they want to get a property under agreement and sold, but if they don't do a good job representing the buyer then word of mouth quickly makes that agent lose sales and not do well.

Now as far as this lawsuit it won't change anything really, except how the commission structure is presented. Currently it all comes out of the seller's proceeds. What could happen going foward is the buyer's agent charges commission to the buyer. The seller has a lower price because maybe they aren't paying 5 or 6%. It all comes out in the wash.

Realtors can't work for free. I've seen a buyer's agent take a buyer to over 70 homes over the course of 6 months. People expect that and then not pay them anything when they buy something?
Your first paragraph is totally false. The listing contract is between the listing broker and the seller. There is no buyer agent mentioned in the contract. The buyer has absolutely no contractual relationship with the broker. When you go to the closing, the entire commission is listed on the seller's side of the settlement statement and paid for by the seller. The buyer pays nothing. The buyer has no legal recourse for breach of the listing contract because the buyer never signed the contract and never agreed to pay any of the commission. That is basic contract law.

[frayedends]

And, this is how a lawsuit was won. A realtor cannot be a buyer's agent. The job of a realtor is to represent the seller at all times. A potential buyer does not need to contract with a realtor.

That isn't correct. It was won because basically a buyer's agent would tell the buyer, "You don't pay me anything." That is technically true, but the buyer's agent is being paid from the total commission in the MLS listing. It's really just semantics but can be seen as the buyer's agent misrepresenting that the buyer is paying their commission because it's basically part of the sale price of the home.

As I mentioned, this is why it will likely change on how the buyer's agent gets paid. But you are flat out wrong that an agent can't represent a buyer. A good buyer agent will steer a buyer away from bad deals.

[frayedends]

Nobody here is a hater. Just trying to help. Why pay more for something that isn’t hard to do? 70 homes shown over time would equal about 70 hours. What should a salesman make for their 70 hours?

70 hours huh? LOL. Try doubling that at least. Travel time, mileage, etc. But you are paying for their experience. I guarantee you that a good agent is going to save you more on the purchase than is paid in commission. You wouldn't believe the mistakes people would make.

Now, I once felt like you do. Heck back in my past life I sold 2 homes by owner. Both times I had to pay the buyer's agent. Listing on MLS doesn't get people in the door necessarily. Anyhow, until I saw how much an agent really does, first hand, I would have thought like you do. 70 hours. Still has me laughing. It's 6:33 and my wife just got in the door. She drove 45 minutes to an appointment and the buyer called her 5 minutes before and cancelled. Just part of the deal. She'll be on the phone multiple times tonight also I'm sure. I'm just saying people have no idea how hard that job is to do. You may think that one sale only took 70 hours, but you didn't count the 10 deals that didn't happen that also took 70 hours.

[Babubhat]

They will file for bankruptcy and return in another form.

7 other brokerage services, including publicly traded, have just received the same suit

10 Reasons You Don't Need to Join The National Association of Realtors (https://housely.com/10-reasons-dont-need-join-national-association-realtors-nar/)


There are 1,200 local associations and boards and 54 state/territory associations across the United States. To use the REALTOR designation, you must be a member.

The mission of the NAR is "to empower REALTORS® as they preserve, protect and advance the right to real property for all." Its vision is "to be a trusted ally, guiding our members and those they serve through the ever-evolving real estate landscape."

[retiredguy123]

It seems you are referring to an agent that has the listing, the buyer comes in without an agent and the Listing agent does the deal alone. In that case, the listing agent is possibly taking both sides of the commission (unless they pass along the savings). But they have an ethical duty to tell the buyer that they are representing the seller.

That's not how buyer's agent works. Now, I will admit I'm in Massachusetts and don't know what could be different in Florida. But a buyer contacts an agent and wants to see a home. If that agent is not the listing agent then he/she becomes the buyer's agent. They may or may not sign a buyer's agent contract. That agent should be advising the buyer on home value, helping with financing needs and legal needs, etc. They should be bringing the buyer to similar homes, working with inspection. They need to know the rules for FHA loans (you wouldn't believe how many realtors miss that info).

The agent I know works tirelessly, on the phone at all hours, out at appointments all day and night, 7 days/week, working with their buyers (or sellers if they have the listing). She works way more hours than my 9-5 job that's for sure.

It really aggravates me when people say they get paid for nothing. They have no idea how much work is involved.
Note that the term "agent" is a legal term that means someone is representing a client in a legal transaction for a fee. The only way a buyer can have an agent is if they sign a legally binding contract in which the buyer agrees to pay money to the agent. If the buyer just shows up and the real estate agent shows them houses, there is no client/agent relationship established. For most real estate sales in Florida, the buyer does not have an agent representing them. However, real estate agents typically do not adequately convey to the buyer that they are representing the seller, and not the buyer. That is why buyers will often assume that they have an "agent" when they don't.

[frayedends]

Your first paragraph is totally false. The listing contract is between the listing broker and the seller. There is no buyer agent mentioned in the contract. The buyer has absolutely no contractual relationship with the broker. When you go to the closing, the entire commission is listed on the seller's side of the settlement statement and paid for by the seller. The buyer pays nothing. The buyer has no legal recourse for breach of the listing contract because the buyer never signed the contract and never agreed to pay any of the commission. That is basic contract law.

I am not wrong. I don't think you understood what I was saying. The listing contract is between the seller and the listing agent, correct. But the listing agent posts the buyer's commision (co-broke) in MLS. The buyer's agent looks up a listing and knows right away what their portion of the commission will be. The buyer's agent portion is in the closing disclosure. Technically I guess you could argue that the seller/listing agent is getting all the commission and paying the buyer's agent. But again, semantics.

[frayedends]

Note that the term "agent" is a legal term that means someone is representing a client in a legal transaction for a fee. The only way a buyer can have an agent is if they sign a legally binding contract in which the buyer agrees to pay money to the agent. If the buyer just shows up and the real estate agent shows them houses, there is no client/agent relationship established. For most real estate sales in Florida, the buyer does not have an agent representing them. However, real estate agents typically do not adequately convey to the buyer that they are representing the seller, and not the buyer. That is why buyers will often assume that they have an "agent" when they don't.

This may be different than in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts when a buyer works with an agent they sign an agency disclosure that shows they are representing the buyer. The agent may or may not sign a contract with the buyer. If there is no contract the buyer can simply stop working with them. In addition if the are a "Realtor" there is a code of ethics that the agent must be loyal and obedient etc to their client (buyer or seller).

[retiredguy123]

I am not wrong. I don't think you understood what I was saying. The listing contract is between the seller and the listing agent, correct. But the listing agent posts the buyer's commision (co-broke) in MLS. The buyer's agent looks up a listing and knows right away what their portion of the commission will be. The buyer's agent portion is in the closing disclosure. Technically I guess you could argue that the seller/listing agent is getting all the commission and paying the buyer's agent. But again, semantics.
See Post No. 22. This is not semantics at all. There is no buyer agent in the legal sense, and the only legally binding contract that exists is between the broker and the seller. The buyer has no legal recourse, and is never responsible to pay a commission.

[margaretmattson]

That isn't correct. It was won because basically a buyer's agent would tell the buyer, "You don't pay me anything." That is technically true, but the buyer's agent is being paid from the total commission in the MLS listing. It's really just semantics but can be seen as the buyer's agent misrepresenting that the buyer is paying their commission because it's basically part of the sale price of the home.

As I mentioned, this is why it will likely change on how the buyer's agent gets paid. But you are flat out wrong that an agent can't represent a buyer. A good buyer agent will steer a buyer away from bad deals. What you are stating is unethical. I hope you are not a realtor. If you came to me while I was interested in purchasing a home, I would report you. The job of a realtor is to represent the seller(s). Period! If you steer me away from bad deals, I owe you nothing. Tomorrow, another agent can show me a home and I am free to buy from whom I wish. I may even tell the seller of the home that you are steering people away. A realtors job is to sell the home. He or she is not an in between.

[frayedends]

What you are stating is unethical. I hope you are not a realtor. If you came to me while I was interested in purchasing a home, I would report you. The job of a realtor is to represent the seller(s). Period! If you steer me away from bad deals, I owe you nothing. Tomorrow, another agent can show me a home and I am free to buy from whom I wish. I may even tell the seller of the home that you are steering people away. A realtors job is to sell the home. He or she is not an in between.

What are you talking about? What did I say that was unethical? It's literally in the Realtor code of ethics to represent your buyer if you are a buyer agent. If you want to see a home and your buyer's agent says, here's the comps, this house is overpriced by 50K, how it that unethical.

You are saying, if you are a buyer and you come to me and want to see a house, and I tell you the house is way overpriced, you are going to report me? Well good luck with your home buying. LOL.

[BrianL99]

This may be different than in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts when a buyer works with an agent they sign an agency disclosure that shows they are representing the buyer. The agent may or may not sign a contract with the buyer. If there is no contract the buyer can simply stop working with them. In addition if the are a "Realtor" there is a code of ethics that the agent must be loyal and obedient etc to their client (buyer or seller).

Unless something has changed fairly recently, there's not much difference between Massachusetts and Florida. The biggest difference, is "dual agency" is not allowed in Florida, but something called being a "transaction broker" is allowed. Same horse, different color.

[retiredguy123]

In Florida, a licensed agent cannot represent the buyer and the seller in the sales phase. It is unethical and illegal. In some cases, they can become a transaction agent, but only after a sales contract has been executed.

[frayedends]

See Post No. 22. This is not semantics at all. There is no buyer agent in the legal sense, and the only legally binding contract that exists is between the broker and the seller. The buyer has no legal recourse, and is never responsible to pay a commission.


Again, maybe different in Florida? In Massachusetts there can be a buyer's agent contract that states the agent is representing the buyer and it also discloses the commission being paid.

When I mention semantics, I mean how it's paid. If the house is 500K and the commission is 50K (for easy math) you could pay 50K at closing to the listing agent who then gives the buyer's agent 25K. Or you could pay each agent 25K at closing from the proceeds. Or the seller could give the listing agent 25K, the buyer could give the buyer agent 25K and the house could close at 450K. My point, it all comes out in the wash. That's why I say the lawsuit results change nothing but the semantics...

A buyer's agent should not be telling the buyer that it cost them nothing to be represented. There is a cost, and it can be buried in the commission structure. That is why the lawsuit was won. So in the future it won't necessarily save the buyer money (or make the seller more) because the agents will both want to get paid. They just have to disclose it differently.

[margaretmattson]

What are you talking about? What did I say that was unethical? It's literally in the Realtor code of ethics to represent your buyer if you are a buyer agent. If you want to see a home and your buyer's agent says, here's the comps, this house is overpriced by 50K, how it that unethical.

You are saying, if you are a buyer and you come to me and want to see a house, and I tell you the house is way overpriced, you are going to report me? Well good luck with your home buying. LOL.You are being paid a possible commission to sell a home FROM THE SELLER. Therefore, A realtor always represents the seller. He or she is the one paying you to sell the home.

Example: you go to a car dealership. A sales rep helps you but you decide to look around. Does he try to convince you that you are now obligated to buy only from him? Does he try to control you through manipulation? No!

A realtor is nothing more than a representative who sells homes. That fact that you believe this is not the case, is unethical.

[frayedends]

In Florida, an agent cannot represent the buyer and the seller in the sales phase. It is unethical and illegal. In some cases, they can become a transaction agent, but only after a sales contract has been executed.

Yeah, here you are talking about dual agency, right? Same agent, buyer and seller side? In Massachusetts that can be done but it's tricky. First the buyer and seller have to agree to the dual agency. Then the agent can facilitate the transaction, but they can't offer guidance on the negotiations. For instance, when I said a buyer agent can tell you the house is overpriced. A dual agent couldn't do that since they are representing both the buyer and seller.

[frayedends]

You are being paid a possible commission to sell a home FROM THE SELLER. Therefore, A realtor always represents the seller. He or she is the one paying you to sell the home.

Example: you go to a car dealership. A sales rep helps you but you decide to look around. Does he try to convince you that you are now obligated to buy only from him? Does he try to control you through manipulation? No!

A realtor is nothing more than a representative who sells homes. That fact that you believe this is not the case, is unethical.

I think you missed a big part of my posts or you just don't understand how this works. And again, maybe different in Massachusetts. The commission paid to the buyer agent is disclosed by the Listing agent in MLS. They have what they call a cooperative agreement. This is common practice here. We are talking about 2 different agents, just to be clear. The seller agent knows they are paying the buyer's agent commission. Of course, this is done to get buyers to view the home.

Let me give you an example of how it works in Massachusetts...

A buyer calls an agent and says I'd like to see 64 Tucson trail. The agent says, okay that is not my listing. I would be acting as your agent and representing you. I can set up a showing for tomorrow at 3 PM. They go to the house, the buyer agent opens it with a lock box code. The seller agent may or may not accompany. The buyer agent signs an agency disclosure with the buyer (or a contract if they want). The buyer agent advises the buyer on making an offer, etc and helps throughout the transaction. The MLS Listing shows a Co-Broker Commission. It literally says "Buyers Agent X%". Generally they all know the co-broke commission already for an area. It's fairly standard but not required to be.

Edit to add, your car sales had me confused. But you definitely misunderstand. In your scenario there is no buyers agent.
Let's say I'm a buyers agent for cars (pretend with me for a moment that this exists). I have a deal with all the car dealers in the area that they will pay me half the commission if my buyer purchases a car. So I take my buyer to Mercedes. We talk to the sale agent at Mercedes but leave and go to BMW. We talk to them but decide to go to Village Golf Cars and buy a new Yamaha Quiet Tech Drive 2, EFI with LED lights, hard valance, and blue tooth speakers. My buyer buys the car. The Yamaha sales agent bet $500 and they pay me $250 for bringing in the buyer. It's kind of like a finders fee.

[retiredguy123]

Again, maybe different in Florida? In Massachusetts there can be a buyer's agent contract that states the agent is representing the buyer and it also discloses the commission being paid.

When I mention semantics, I mean how it's paid. If the house is 500K and the commission is 50K (for easy math) you could pay 50K at closing to the listing agent who then gives the buyer's agent 25K. Or you could pay each agent 25K at closing from the proceeds. Or the seller could give the listing agent 25K, the buyer could give the buyer agent 25K and the house could close at 450K. My point, it all comes out in the wash. That's why I say the lawsuit results change nothing but the semantics...

A buyer's agent should not be telling the buyer that it cost them nothing to be represented. There is a cost, and it can be buried in the commission structure. That is why the lawsuit was won. So in the future it won't necessarily save the buyer money (or make the seller more) because the agents will both want to get paid. They just have to disclose it differently.
I don't know about Massachusetts, but in Florida, what you are describing would be illegal. A licensed agent cannot represent the buyer and the seller in the selling phase. After a sales contract is executed, an agent can sometimes act as a transaction agent to facilitate the closing. But, when showing and selling a house, the agent represents the seller only, if the agent intends to collect a commission from the seller per a listing contract.

[margaretmattson]

I think you missed a big part of my posts or you just don't understand how this works. And again, maybe different in Massachusetts. The commission paid to the buyer agent is disclosed by the Listing agent in MLS. They have what they call a cooperative agreement. This is common practice here. We are talking about 2 different agents, just to be clear. The seller agent knows they are paying the buyer's agent commission. Of course, this is done to get buyers to view the home.

Let me give you an example of how it works in Massachusetts...

A buyer calls an agent and says I'd like to see 64 Tucson trail. The agent says, okay that is not my listing. I would be acting as your agent and representing you. I can set up a showing for tomorrow at 3 PM. They go to the house, the buyer agent opens it with a lock box code. The seller agent may or may not accompany. The buyer agent signs an agency disclosure with the buyer (or a contract if they want). The buyer agent advises the buyer on making an offer, etc and helps throughout the transaction. The MLS Listing shows a Co-Broker Commission. It literally says "Buyers Agent X%". Generally they all know the co-broke commission already for an area. It's fairly standard but not required to be.Yes, it is different in Florida. If it is listed in the contract as allowed by Massachusetts law, there is nothing unethical. Knowing this, I probably will never buy a house in Massachusetts. I am not going to pay someone to do something I can do myself. How hard is it to look at MLS listings to find what you like.

[frayedends]

Yes, it is different in Florida. If it is listed in the contract as allowed by Massachusetts law, there is nothing unethical. Knowing this, I probably will never buy a house in Massachusetts. I am not going to pay someone to do something I can do myself. How hard is it to look at MLS listings to find what you like.

Yes, just found out Florida does prohibit dual agency (same agent on both sides). It is okay in the scenario in Massachusetts, provided they don't touch the negotiations.

As far as the buyer agent thing, yeah you can do it yourself. If you are educated enough. I always thought I knew plenty. But damn, there are a lot of things that can go sideways. But, at least for now, you are gonna pay the full commission whether you have a buyer's agent or not. The listing may say 5% and if there's no buyer's agent the listing agent gets it all. Some listing agents will work with you on this if there's not buyer's agent and provide a discount.

Question though, are you saying there is no buyer agents in Florida (Separate from the listing agent)?

[BrianL99]

You are being paid a possible commission to sell a home FROM THE SELLER. Therefore, A realtor always represents the seller. He or she is the one paying you to sell the home.

WRONG

A realtor is nothing more than a representative who sells homes. .

WRONG

REALTOR® is a Registered Trademark.

No "real estate representative" is a REALTOR®

Not all Real Estate Brokers are REALTOR®

A Real Estate Broker (or a REALTOR® [who by definition is a Broker]) can represent a Seller or a Buyer. In all but 8 states, they can also represent both a Buyer and a Seller at the same time.

Don't let facts get in the way of your typing.

[retiredguy123]

Yes, it is different in Florida. If it is listed in the contract as allowed by Massachusetts law, there is nothing unethical. Knowing this, I probably will never buy a house in Massachusetts. I am not going to pay someone to do something I can do myself. How hard is it to look at MLS listings to find what you like.
I agree. A licensed real estate agent in Florida could never tell a potential buyer that they are representing them if they are showing a house that has a listing contract where the agent expects to collect money from the seller at the closing. The only way that would be legal would be if the agent told the seller that they represent the buyer and that they will not accept any commission money from the seller at the closing.

[frayedends]

I agree. A licensed real estate agent in Florida could never tell a potential buyer that they are representing them if they are showing a house that has a listing contract where the agent expects to collect money from the seller at the closing. The only way that would be legal would be if the agent told the seller that they represent the buyer and that they will not accept any commission money from the seller at the closing.

Are you talking about 1 agent serving both buyer and seller. Then you are correct. But there are buyer's agency in Florida. It seems from what I'm finding they are paid the same way as in Massachusetts...

Average Florida Real Estate Commissions
Florida realtor commission is usually 5% to 6% of the home’s selling price. For example, if a home sells for $500,000, a real estate agent might get $25,000 when the sale closes.

Experienced agents will typically collect a full 6% commission, but younger, less experienced agents might receive less than that.

From the link...

"However, real estate agents often don’t get all of this commission. If there are two agents with the buyer and seller, the commission splits. An agent that works for a brokerage will have to pay them for assistance."

Florida Realtor Commission Guide (2023) | PropertyClub (https://propertyclub.nyc/article/realtor-commission-in-florida)

[BrianL99]

Are you talking about 1 agent serving both buyer and seller. Then you are correct. But there are buyer's agency in Florida. It seems from what I'm finding they are paid the same way as in Massachusetts...




The Selling Broker - Listing Broker relationship is exactly the same in Florida, as it is in Massachusetts. The only difference, is "dual agency" is not allowed in Florida.

The Seller's Broker sets the Commission Rate and sets the "cooperating broker's" (Buyer's Broker) fee. It doesn't have to be split 50/50. The typical Selling Commission in Florida (as in MA) is 5%. It's very unusual for anyone to pay 6% or 4%, but it happens. It happened in my case (actually, 3%).

The Commission on the resale I bought in The Villages 2 years ago, was a total of 3%. 1.5% to the Listing Broker, 1.5% to the Selling Broker (my Buyer's Broker).

The Brokers involved, were Re/MAX Premier Realty and NextHome Sally Love Realty.

... & before all the crazies jump in and claim that's nonsense, here's a Screen Shot of the actual HUD Settlement Statement.

[margaretmattson]

WRONG



WRONG

REALTOR® is a Registered Trademark.

No "real estate representative" is a REALTOR®

Not all Real Estate Brokers are REALTOR®

A Real Estate Broker (or a REALTOR® [who by definition is a Broker]) can represent a Seller or a Buyer. In all but 8 states, they can also represent both a Buyer and a Seller at the same time.

Don't let facts get in the way of your typing.Thank you for the correction. I was just stating it in example scenario. But, you are correct with your terminology.

[dhdallas]

Note that "The Properties of The Villages" is not a member of the NAR, and none of their agents are Realtors.

That is correct. TV's real estate salespeople don't need to belong to the NAR to cheat and lie to the buyer.

[margaretmattson]

Yes, just found out Florida does prohibit dual agency (same agent on both sides). It is okay in the scenario in Massachusetts, provided they don't touch the negotiations.

As far as the buyer agent thing, yeah you can do it yourself. If you are educated enough. I always thought I knew plenty. But damn, there are a lot of things that can go sideways. But, at least for now, you are gonna pay the full commission whether you have a buyer's agent or not. The listing may say 5% and if there's no buyer's agent the listing agent gets it all. Some listing agents will work with you on this if there's not buyer's agent and provide a discount.

Question though, are you saying there is no buyer agents in Florida (Separate from the listing agent)?When buying a home, at anytime, you can drop one agent and get another. You have no contract with any of them. In fact, you can have several, if you want. No one can force you to work with them. So, is there an OFFICIAL buyers agent in Florida? I say no. If you say yes, we are just splitting hairs. It depends on one's definition. I have never had a buyer's agent. Just a man who saw $$$$ and kept following me from house to house. He didn't even negotiate terms, I did! Lol. If he wasn't there when I decided to buy, I would have contacted the listing agent. I would rather pay a good home inspector to follow me around. But, that's just me!

[frayedends]

The Selling Broker - Listing Broker relationship is exactly the same in Florida, as it is in Massachusetts. The only difference, is "dual agency" is not allowed in Florida.

The Seller's Broker sets the Commission Rate and sets the "cooperating broker's" (Buyer's Broker) fee. It doesn't have to be split 50/50. The typical Selling Commission in Florida (as in MA) is 5%. It's very unusual for anyone to pay 6% or 4%, but it happens. It happened in my case (actually, 3%).

The Commission on the resale I bought in The Villages 2 years ago, was a total of 3%. 1.5% to the Listing Broker, 1.5% to the Selling Broker (my Buyer's Broker).

The Brokers involved, were Re/MAX Premier Realty and NextHome Sally Love Realty.

... & before all the crazies jump in and claim that's nonsense, here's a Screen Shot of the actual HUD Settlement Statement.

Thanks Brian, that's exactly how it works here in MA and what I was trying to describe. I may not have been clear that the numbers aren't set and the split can be uneven as you mentioned.

[frayedends]

When buying a home, at anytime, you can drop one agent and get another. You have no contract with any of them. In fact, you can have several, if you want. No one can force you to work with them. So, is there an OFFICIAL buyers agent in Florida? I say no. If you say yes, we are just splitting hairs. It depends on one's definition. I have never had a buyer's agent. Just a man who saw $$$$ and kept following me from house to house. He didn't even negotiate terms, I did! Lol. If he wasn't there when I decided to buy, I would have contacted the listing agent. I would rather pay a good home inspector to follow me around. But, that's just me!

In Massachusetts there can be a contract with a buyers agent. If not there can just be an agent disclosure that one is acting as a buyers agent. If there is a contract it usually has a date set on it. Even if the buyer walks away from that agent but is under contract that buyer's agent will likely still get that share of the commission. Years ago this exact thing happened to me. I had a buyer's agent (It was my first house and I had no idea about these things). I walked away because I didn't like her. But she showed up at closing and got her money. She did nothing in the way of helping me except send me to the house the first time. But the basic ethics rules is that agent that had the contract has some rights via the board of realtors to that commission.

Even if there is no contract but that agent shows the buyer the house, that agent will get their share of the commission, regardless if the buyer then stops all contact with them. The first question an agent should be asking when they get a call from a buyer is, "Are you working with an agent." There are times buyers don't disclose this and it can cause issues with commissions.

ETA: This lawsuit will likely increase the amount of actual contracts between buyer's agents and buyers. Because it seems the buyers will have to pay their agent directly rather than from the proceeds of the sale. It doesn't really help anything. It becomes more complicated. Here's an example.

For easy math...
House is worth 500K. Old way, it is listed and sells for 500K. At closing the 2 realtors split the 25K commission (5%) that was set on the listing.

New way: Owner lists and sells for 500K. Seller pays their listing agent 12.5K. But the buyer is under contract to pay their agent 12.5K (obviously, this number is whatever they negotiate). But buyers don't always have thousands extra laying around at closing. So they will perhaps write an offer that asks for 12.5K back at closing. Similar to how buyers will ask for closing costs back at closing. In the end the seller took home 475K in both scenarios.

One benefit I could see is in competition among buyer's agents. If the commission is now set at the listing, the buyer can hire any agent. But if there is a contract with the buyer's agent that sets the commission, the buyer's agents can compete with lower commission/pay.

[elevatorman]

Area Realtors are getting a 5 to 6% commission. Does anyone know what The Villages commission is when they sell a preowned house?

[MidWestIA]

Don't sellers just agree to 6 or 7% - in Texas I made my on contract and gave buying realtor 2% but she was great so upped it to 3.5.

[seecapecod]

70 hours huh? LOL. Try doubling that at least. Travel time, mileage, etc. But you are paying for their experience. I guarantee you that a good agent is going to save you more on the purchase than is paid in commission. You wouldn't believe the mistakes people would make.

Now, I once felt like you do. Heck back in my past life I sold 2 homes by owner. Both times I had to pay the buyer's agent. Listing on MLS doesn't get people in the door necessarily. Anyhow, until I saw how much an agent really does, first hand, I would have thought like you do. 70 hours. Still has me laughing. It's 6:33 and my wife just got in the door. She drove 45 minutes to an appointment and the buyer called her 5 minutes before and cancelled. Just part of the deal. She'll be on the phone multiple times tonight also I'm sure. I'm just saying people have no idea how hard that job is to do. You may think that one sale only took 70 hours, but you didn't count the 10 deals that didn't happen that also took 70 hours.

Agreed! I remember as a child my aunt leaving Thanksgiving dinner because someone wanted her to show them a house! Personally my buyers agents have ensured the home we weee about to close on had grandmas China cabinet removed and other items the seller asked if we wanted. So many details are taken care of with a good buyers agent. Not to mention price negotiation!

[crash]

Ya, you know the ones, “We don’t work for the seller, we work for you.”

LOL

Yes and both agents represent the seller because they both work for the Villages. The commission for selling a house has always been like that but now the value of houses has gone way up so commisions are out of line with the service you get.

[crash]

Area Realtors are getting a 5 to 6% commission. Does anyone know what The Villages commission is when they sell a preowned house?

They can only sell houses listed by the Villages who charges 6% to sell. I believe but not sure the agents each get 1% and the Villages pockets 4%. Even if they get the standard 1.5% the Villages pockets 3%. If the same agent lists and sells the house the Villages will only charge 5%, 2% to the agent and 3% to the Villages.

[Normal]

They can only sell houses listed by the Villages who charges 6% to sell. I believe but not sure the agents each get 1% and the Villages pockets 4%. Even if they get the standard 1.5% the Villages pockets 3%. If the same agent lists and sells the house the Villages will only charge 5%, 2% to the agent and 3% to the Villages.

The ole Company Store model. Let the cash just keep flowing in. It’s kind of like being a Ford dealership…sell it new…take it back for a trade in cut….sell it again lol. Except housing is required for most to live in, where cars hit the scrap heap eventually.

Just don’t forget to throw bone or two to the sales reps.

(Pondering…how much different is this from the NAR suit?)

[CoachKandSportsguy]

CNN update with more lawsuits coming, and Mr Buffet, the old sage to whom people listen without great context, has invested in questionable companies. .

National Association of Realtors found liable for $1.8 billion in damages in conspiracy to keep commissions high | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/economy/national-association-of-realtors-commissions-high/index.html)

Redfin now a target for the joining the fray. . from the copycat lawsuits, which will be interesting.

[Nova Filtration]

Sold last home on Houzeo.com, cost $300, goes on Zillow and all others, zero commission or offered 2.5% to brokers.

Had plenty of brokers interested for 2.5% because that's what they would make a shared MLS listing

Real simple process

Sold house in 8 days after dropping listing with TV who never had an offer in three months.
I think they played bait and switch to new home same model

[MandoMan]

Missouri jury finds NAR, brokerages guilty of conspiring to inflate commissions - HousingWire (https://www.housingwire.com/articles/missouri-jury-finds-nar-brokerages-guilty-of-conspiring-to-inflate-commissions/#:~:text=A%20Kansas%20City%20jury%20has,Burnett%20 buyer%20broker%20commission%20lawsuit).

It was fun for them while it lasted, now go search for a cheaper realtor!

The article you link to is terrible. What’s going on is that the N.A.R. and half a dozen major companies, like Re/Max and Keller Williams, were sued with a class action suit over why a SELLER has to pay commission to the BUYER’s agent instead of the buyer paying that. We are talking 3% of the house sale cost going to that agent! Several companies settled out of court for many millions of dollars. The N.A.R. Did not, along with several other companies. They all lost and were hit with fines of, I think, $1.4 Billion, with a possibility of triple damages.

I think this only applies to home sales in Missouri, but I’m not sure. Before we celebrate, bear in mind that this would mean that as a seller, you would receive an extra 3%, but as a buyer, you would have to pay an extra 3% to the realtor. I’m not certain about that, but I assume buyers would be paying their agents for their help in some way.

The companies are of course appealing. It may not apply in Florida. Would you be receiving a check for that 3% you paid but shouldn’t have? Maybe. Would you be receiving a bill as a buyer from your own agent for that 3%? Unlikely, as it’s not in the contract. But few of us buy a home without also selling a home.

[Priebehouse]

This is long overdue.

When I was in real estate in the late 70's/early 80's there was a lot more work involved. Developing an accurate Market Analysis, advertising, maintaining a book of active buyers, cold calling, SHOWING homes to clients, etc. was all done by the agent so you worked for your commission. Now it's all done on the web. That's how I found my home in TV. The RE Industry needs to realign the structure now that this case has been settled. Otherwise, the backlash will be tremendous.:sigh:

[TeresaE]

I borrowed this from a friend.

The public has a lot of misconceptions of REALTORS.

The average FULL TIME REALTOR’s salary last year was $31,900 @ 40+ hours a week. (Notice I wrote full time 40+ hours not 0-20 hours a week) which is well below the living wage. As a REALTOR we do not get paid a hourly wage or salary and we only get paid if we sell a home and it closes. We can only get paid by broker to broker. As an agent you could work with someone days, weeks, months, or years with no guarantee of a sale ever.

Essentially we wake up each day unemployed going on Job Interviews and we deal with constant rejection. We dedicate time away from family, use our time, gas, pay for babysitters, miss dinner and weekends and seldomly take vacations. We are on 24/7! You constantly need to be on, or you could miss an opportunity. Once we do close a home, half goes to the other person’s agent from the remaining half. We have lots of upfront expenses that must be paid out before we even get paid.

Broker Splits and Fees
Office rent and utilities
MLS Fees
NAR Fees
Local Association Fees
E&O Business Insurance
Extended Auto Insurance
Self-Employment Tax
State Licensing Fees
Advertising Fees
Showing Service Fees
Website Fees
Assistant's Salaries
Showing partners
Transaction coordinator
Yard Signs
Photographers
Videographers
Office Supplies
Business Cards
Property Flyers
Electronic Lockboxes
Continued RE Education
Legal Fees
Gas

Income taxes are not taken out so we have to put that aside around 25-30%.

As a listing agent we have lots of tasks far more then just selling a home.

1. Prepare Listing Presentation for Sellers
2. Research Sellers Property Tax Info
3. Research Comparable Sold Properties for Sellers
4. Determine Average Days on Market
5. Gather Info From Sellers About Their Home
6. Meet With Sellers at Their Home
7. Get To Know Their Home
8. Present Listing Presentation
9. Advise on Repairs and/or Upgrades
10. Provide Home Seller To-Do Checklist
11. Explain Current Market Conditions
12. Discuss Seller’s Goals
13. Share Your Value Proposition
14. Explain Benefits of Your Brokerage
15. Present Your Marketing Options
16. Explain Video Marketing Strategies
17. Demonstrate 3D Tour Marketing
18. Explain Buyer & Seller Agency Relationships
19. Describe the Buyer Pre-Screening Process
20. Create Internal File for Transaction
21. Get Listing Agreement & Disclosures Signed
22. Provide Sellers Disclosure Form to Sellers
23. Verify Interior Room Sizes
24. Obtain Current Mortgage Loan Info
25. Confirm Lot Size from County Tax Records
26. Investigate Any Unrecorded Property Easements
27. Establish Showing Instructions for Buyers
28. Agree on Showing Times with Sellers
29. Discuss Different Types of Buyer Financing
30. Explain Appraisal Process and Pitfalls
31. Verify Home Owners Association Fees
32. Obtain a Copy of HOA Bylaws
33. Gather Transferable Warranties
34. Determine Need for Lead-Based Paint Disclosure
35. Verify Security System Ownership
36. Discuss Video Recording Devices & Showings
37. Determine Property Inclusions & Exclusions
38. Agree on Repairs to Made Before Listing
39. Schedule Staging Consultation
40. Schedule House Cleaners
41. Install Electronic Lockbox & Yard Sign
42. Set-Up Photo/Video Shoot
43. Meet Photographer at Property
44. Prepare Home For Photographer
45. Schedule Drone & 3D Tour Shoot
46. Get Seller’s Approval of All Marketing Materials
47. Input Property Listing Into The MLS
48. Create Virtual Tour Page
49. Verify Listing Data on 3rd Party Websites
50. Have Listing Proofread
51. Create Property Flyer
52. Have Extra Keys Made for Lockbox
53. Set-Up Showing Services
54. Help Owners Coordinate Showings
55. Gather Feedback After Each Showing
56. Keep track of Showing Activity
57. Update MLS Listing as Needed
58. Schedule Weekly Update Calls with Seller
59. Prepare “Net Sheet” For All Offers
60. Present All Offers to Seller
61. Obtain Pre-Approval Letter from Buyer’s Agent
62. Examine & Verify Buyer’s Qualifications
63. Examine & Verify Buyer’s Lender
64. Negotiate All Offers
65. Once Under Contract, Send to Title Company
66. Check Buyer’s Agent Has Received Copies
67. Change Property Status in MLS
68. Deliver Copies of Contact/Addendum to Seller
69. Keep Track of Copies for Office File
70. Coordinate Inspections with Sellers
71. Explain Buyer’s Inspection Objections to Sellers
72. Determine Seller’s Inspection Resolution
73. Get All Repair Agreements in Writing
74. Refer Trustworthy Contractors to Sellers
75. Meet Appraiser at the Property
76. Negotiate Any Unsatisfactory Appraisals
77. Confirm Clear-to-Close
78. Coordinate Closing Times & Location
79. Verify Title Company Has All Docs
80. Remind Sellers to Transfer Utilities
81. Make Sure All Parties Are Notified of Closing Time
82. Resolve Any Title Issues Before Closing
83. Receive and Carefully Review Closing Docs
84. Review Closing Figures With Seller
85. Confirm Repairs Have Been Made
86. Resolve Any Last Minute Issues
87. Attend Seller’s Closing
88. Pick Up Sign & Lock Box
89. Change Status in MLS to “Sold.”
90. Close Out Seller’s File With Brokerage

As a buyers agent we also have many tasks.

1. Schedule Time To Meet Buyers
2. Prepare Buyers Guide & Presentation
3. Meet Buyers and Discuss Their Goals
4. Explain Buyer & Seller Agency Relationships
5. Discuss Different Types of Financing Options
6. Help Buyers Find a Mortgage Lender
7. Obtain Pre-Approval Letter from Their Lender
8. Explain What You Do For Buyers As A Realtor
9. Provide Overview of Current Market Conditions
10. Explain Your Company’s Value to Buyers
11. Discuss Earnest Money Deposits
12. Explain Home Inspection Process
13. Educate Buyers About Local Neighborhoods
14. Discuss Foreclosures & Short Sales
15. Gather Needs & Wants Of Their Next Home
16. Explain School Districts Effect on Home Values
17. Explain Recording Devices During Showings
18. Learn All Buyer Goals & Make A Plan
19. Create Internal File for Buyers Records
20. Send Buyers Homes Within Their Criteria
21. Start Showing Buyers Home That They Request
22. Schedule & Organize All Showings
23. Gather Showing Instructions for Each Listing
24. Send Showing Schedule to Buyers
25. Show Up Early and Prepare First Showing
26. Look For Possible Repair Issues While Showing
27. Gather Buyer Feedback After Each Showing
28. Update Buyers When New Homes Hit the Market
29. Share Knowledge & Insight About Homes
30. Guide Buyers Through Their Emotional Journey
31. Listen & Learn From Buyers At Each Showing
32. Keep Records of All Showings
33. Update Listing Agents with Buyer’s Feedback
34. Discuss Home Owner’s Associations
35. Estimate Expected Utility Usage Costs
36. Confirm Water Source and Status
37. Discuss Transferable Warranties
38. Explain Property Appraisal Process
39. Discuss Multiple Offer Situations
40. Create Practice Offer To Help Buyers Prepare
41. Provide Updated Housing Market Data to Buyers
42. Inform Buyers of Their Showing Activity Weekly
43. Update Buyers On Any Price Drops
44. Discuss MLS Data With Buyers At Showings
45. Find the Right Home for Buyers
46. Determine Property Inclusions & Exclusions
47. Prepare Sales Contract When Buyers are Ready
48. Educate Buyer’s On Sales Contract Options
49. Determine Need for Lead-Based Paint Disclosure
50. Explain Home Warranty Options
51. Update Buyer’s Pre-Approval Letter
52. Discuss Loan Objection Deadlines
53. Choose a Closing Date
54. Verify Listing Data Is Correct
55. Review Comps With Buyers To Determine Value
56. Prepare & Submit Buyer’s Offer to Listing Agent
57. Negotiate Buyers Offer With Listing Agent
58. Execute A Sales Contract & Disclosures
59. Once Under Contract, Send to Title Company
60. Coordinate Earnest Money Drop Off
61. Deliver Copies to Mortgage Lender
62. Obtain Copy of Sellers Disclosure for Buyers
63. Deliver Copies of Contract/Addendum to Buyers
64. Obtain A Copy of HOA Bylaws
65. Keep Track of Copies for Office File
66. Coordinate Inspections with Buyers
67. Meet Inspector At The Property
68. Review Home Inspection with Buyers
69. Negotiate Inspection Objections
70. Get All Agreed Upon Repair Items in Writing
71. Verify any Existing Lease Agreements
72. Check In With Lender To Verify Loan Status
73. Check on the Appraisal Date
74. Negotiate Any Unsatisfactory Appraisals
75. Coordinate Closing Times & Location
76. Make Sure All Documents Are Fully Signed
77. Verify Title Company Has Everything Needed
78. Remind Buyers to Schedule Utilities
79. Make Sure All Parties Are Notified of Closing Time
80. Solve Any Title Problems Before Closing
81. Receive and Review Closing Documents
82. Review Closing Figures With Buyers
83.Confirm Repairs Have Been Made By Sellers
84. Perform Final Walk-Through with Buyers
85. Resolve Any Last Minute Issues
86. Get CDA Signed By Brokerage
87. Attend Closing with Buyers
88. Provide Home Warranty Paperwork
89. Give Keys and Accessories to Buyers
90. Close Out Buyer’s File Brokerage

Whew…exhausting isn’t it!?! 🤯

You don't need to buy or sell a home to support my real estate business – here are just a few simple ways to show your support!⁣ By sharing one of my listings, sending a friend or family member my way, letting me connect you with agents outside my area for a broker to broker referral, or leaving me a positive comment or review, this helps me feel seen and supported - (thanks to you)!.

And that... That’s exactly what friends are for. I support my friends in business and I hope you will help support me too.
⁣
Thank you to all of you who have shown so much support. It means the world and does not go unnoticed! 🤍☀️

[Jerrysherry]

I have bought & sold a few homes in my days. 2 properties I never paid a penny for commission, home & a rental property. 5 homes I paid half commission & on one home $300,000 I paid to a realtor $1000 to do everything! So it can be done & I don't have a lot of Education " Just Street Smarts "

[Marmaduke]

It was like a train wreck, I couldn't quit looking!
I loved reading the posts though. I side with basic contract law 100%. After all, it's the law as we all know it.
Many of us have a lot of experience with buying and selling homes. We know the drill.

I guarantee that no agent had ever shown us or anyone in our family 70 homes. If I were that agent, I'd send that buyer to my biggest competitor.

Most people do a good part of their own due dilligence, thus the agents job for them by touring homes via the internet nowadays.

In days past, buyers rode by homes for sale and got the lay of the land, the presence and setback of the home and proximity to schools and other things of importance to them.

I'm just saying that an agent who is showing 70 homes is not par for the course.

If I were that agent, I would never have set out without a clear understanding of what the buyers needs, wishes and desires were before wasting everyone's time, especially my own.

But, as usual, this is just me and my work ethic philosophy. Time is money in the professional's workday.

[sowtime444]

What???? Crown don’t get their cut?

They do. It's called "Stamp Duty". 5%-12% for primary residence (unless under £250,000, then it is 0%), or 3%-15% for investment property.

[Robnlaura]

The job of a realtor is to sell the home. This would mean any realtor represents the seller. You can not play (and charge) both sides of the fence.

That’s called a transaction agent and yes your duty is to closing the transaction for both parties..

[PjLyness1965]

You are being paid a possible commission to sell a home FROM THE SELLER. Therefore, A realtor always represents the seller. He or she is the one paying you to sell the home.

Example: you go to a car dealership. A sales rep helps you but you decide to look around. Does he try to convince you that you are now obligated to buy only from him? Does he try to control you through manipulation? No!

A realtor is nothing more than a representative who sells homes. That fact that you believe this is not the case, is unethical.

Wrong. A realtor can represent a seller or a buyer, but in most states cannot represent both at the same time on the same transaction. A realtor can in fact work with buyers. Where are you getting this information?

[Finchs]

That's sad but true. In Florida, all agents work to achieve a closure for the transaction; the listing agent supposedly works for the seller--ha ha--but in reality noone represents buyer or seller, the agents are in collusion to get a sale completed. And get their commission

[Normal]

When I was in real estate in the late 70's/early 80's there was a lot more work involved. Developing an accurate Market Analysis, advertising, maintaining a book of active buyers, cold calling, SHOWING homes to clients, etc. was all done by the agent so you worked for your commission. Now it's all done on the web. That's how I found my home in TV. The RE Industry needs to realign the structure now that this case has been settled. Otherwise, the backlash will be tremendous.:sigh:

I agree. Gone are the days of printing flyers and stapling them up, walking neighborhoods, going to courthouses for records, and the draining of resources to filter searches for a buyer. Most of the leg work now is done by computer. Commissions don’t need to be 50 thousand for the sale of a million dollar home. The handout is an insane amount.

[BrianL99]

Wrong. A realtor can represent a seller or a buyer, but in most states cannot represent both at the same time on the same transaction. A realtor can in fact work with buyers. Where are you getting this information?

WRONG

In 42 states, a BROKER can represent both a Buyer and a Seller at the same time (dual agency). That sounds like "most" to me?

Just a moment... (https://listwithclever.com/dual-agency/)

A "Realtor®" is a trademarked term. Not all brokers are Realtors®

To quote: "Where are you getting your information" ?

[frayedends]

That's sad but true. In Florida, all agents work to achieve a closure for the transaction; the listing agent supposedly works for the seller--ha ha--but in reality noone represents buyer or seller, the agents are in collusion to get a sale completed. And get their commission


A buyers agent that colludes with a sellers agent and screws the client would quickly lose all their business. Word of mouth is strong. Good agents are ethical and provide proper guidance to their client. Shady agents don’t last long.

[PjLyness1965]

WRONG

In 42 states, a BROKER can represent both a Buyer and a Seller at the same time (dual agency). That sounds like "most" to me?

Just a moment... (https://listwithclever.com/dual-agency/)

A "Realtor®" is a trademarked term. Not all brokers are Realtors®

To quote: "Where are you getting your information" ?

Pardon me for being mistaken. I used to be a Realtor a long time ago and how many states had dual agency wasn’t on the on the real estate exam. 😉
If you were paying attention, I was responding to the comment who suggested that a Realtor could not represent a buyer at all. This is in fact incorrect.
There is no need for you to get upset, but I’m sure you will get over it.

[retiredguy123]

WRONG

In 42 states, a BROKER can represent both a Buyer and a Seller at the same time (dual agency). That sounds like "most" to me?

Just a moment... (https://listwithclever.com/dual-agency/)

A "Realtor®" is a trademarked term. Not all brokers are Realtors®

To quote: "Where are you getting your information" ?
So, in the link you provided, Florida does not allow a dual agency.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Note that "The Properties of The Villages" is not a member of the NAR, and none of their agents are Realtors.

They are, however, fully licensed Real Estate Agents.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes. The biggest real estate scam is for a seller's agent to convince a buyer that he/she is representing the buyer. I cringe every time a see a poster refer to an agent as "my agent". In almost every real estate sale, the buyer does not have an agent.

We did. We went to The Villages sales office for our Lifetime visit and hooked up with an agent to help us find a pre-owned home. We didn't need it to be listed by The Villages, but we wanted a Villages rep to help us because they specialize in this specific community, they don't buy or sell for any other community, so they are more likely to know the answers to questions about this community.

The home we chose was listed by an outside real estate agent. Our agent didn't get a commission. He did the initial walk-through while we were up north, recommended a couple of folks to do the appraisal, helped us get in touch with our selected appraiser and set up appointments. He helped me make sense of the logistics of switching our Xfinity account AND plan since we were cutting the cord after the move. He even received a delivery of our brand new coffee machine the week before the closing, so we'd be able to enjoy a cuppa on our first morning in our new home.

He gave us a lovely gift bag, which was a Villages thermal grocery bag (the big funny-shaped supremely-padded ones with the top zipper), filled with Villages towels and other goodies, including a gift certificate for a free hanging address sign for our front light pole.

And he attended the closing, which was remarkable and incredibly appreciated, especially considering he wasn't allowed to earn a single dime in commission off our home purchase and they don't charge any fees for potential buyers to use their expertise when looking for resales.

[Kelevision]

Note that "The Properties of The Villages" is not a member of the NAR, and none of their agents are Realtors.

Try getting a job selling homes here without a realtors license and let me know how that goes. Oh wait, you can’t nevermind.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

See Post No. 22. This is not semantics at all. There is no buyer agent in the legal sense, and the only legally binding contract that exists is between the broker and the seller. The buyer has no legal recourse, and is never responsible to pay a commission.

They are always responsible to pay the commission. The cost of the commission is built into the sales price, therefore it is always the buyer who ends up paying it.

If the homeowner needs to clear $100,000, and their agent requires a 5% commission, then the homeowner needs to get a minimum $105,000 sales price. The buyer pays that $105,000 - the homeowner keeps the $100k and the extra $5k goes into the agent's pocket. OR it gets split between the agent and the buyer's agent, if they have one.

The decision on who gets the $5000 is between the listing agent and the buyer's agent, if there is one. They duke it out amongst themselves, but it's the buyer who's footing the bill only because it's built into the price they pay for the privilege of buying that house.

[retiredguy123]

Try getting a job selling homes here without a realtors license and let me know how that goes. Oh wait, you can’t nevermind.
To clarify, there is no such thing as a "Realtors" license. Florida issues real estate licenses that allows people to sell houses for a commission. That is not a "Realtors" license, it is a real estate sales license. A Realtor is a member of the National Association of Realtors (NAR) which is a private association that has nothing to do with the state of Florida. The Properties of The Villages is a licensed Florida broker and is not a member of the NAR, and none of their sales agents are Realtors.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Try getting a job selling homes here without a realtors license and let me know how that goes. Oh wait, you can’t nevermind.

Not only can you, but you must. You don't need a "realtors license." But if you want to be employed by the Villages as a sales representative selling their homes, you must have a "real estate" license. "Realtor" is an official title. The owner of a real estate company can be a Realtor, and all his employees be "licensed real estate agents" without being Realtors themselves.

Realtors have different a different set of requirements than licensed real estate agents.

[retiredguy123]

They are always responsible to pay the commission. The cost of the commission is built into the sales price, therefore it is always the buyer who ends up paying it.

If the homeowner needs to clear $100,000, and their agent requires a 5% commission, then the homeowner needs to get a minimum $105,000 sales price. The buyer pays that $105,000 - the homeowner keeps the $100k and the extra $5k goes into the agent's pocket. OR it gets split between the agent and the buyer's agent, if they have one.

The decision on who gets the $5000 is between the listing agent and the buyer's agent, if there is one. They duke it out amongst themselves, but it's the buyer who's footing the bill only because it's built into the price they pay for the privilege of buying that house.
Now that is semantics. Legally, the entire commission is paid by the seller. Just read the settlement statement where the commission is listed on the seller's side of the statement. Whatever money changes hands between the brokers is a private agreement between them. Under contract law, the buyer could never sue the broker to get back a commission because he never paid a commission.

[BrianL99]

Not only can you, but you must. You don't need a "realtors license." But if you want to be employed by the Villages as a sales representative selling their homes, you must have a "real estate" license. "Realtor" is an official title. The owner of a real estate company can be a Realtor, and all his employees be "licensed real estate agents" without being Realtors themselves.

Realtors have different a different set of requirements than licensed real estate agents.

Why do folks who have little or no knowledge, insist on posting about subjects they know little or nothing about?

There is no such thing as a "REALTOR®" license. A REALTOR® is simple a Broker, who joins the National Association of Realtors and agrees to adhere to their ethical requirements ... and pays their fees every year.

There is no way to be a REALTOR®, without belonging to the Association and paying dues.

In most states, there are two levels of Real Estate "professionals". Sales People and Brokers. There are no states that offer a License as a "Realtor" ... that's a made up word, by the Nation Association of Realtors.

Think of them as the difference between a Master Plumber and a Journeyman Plumber. The Journeyman can do most every job the Master can do, but he can't have any employees working under him. A Real Estate Salesperson can do most anything a Broker can do, but must work under the auspices of a Broker.

In most states, a non-licensed person can work directly for a Developer or Home Builder, selling homes or property.

[margaretmattson]

In Massachusetts there can be a contract with a buyers agent. If not there can just be an agent disclosure that one is acting as a buyers agent. If there is a contract it usually has a date set on it. Even if the buyer walks away from that agent but is under contract that buyer's agent will likely still get that share of the commission. Years ago this exact thing happened to me. I had a buyer's agent (It was my first house and I had no idea about these things). I walked away because I didn't like her. But she showed up at closing and got her money. She did nothing in the way of helping me except send me to the house the first time. But the basic ethics rules is that agent that had the contract has some rights via the board of realtors to that commission.

Even if there is no contract but that agent shows the buyer the house, that agent will get their share of the commission, regardless if the buyer then stops all contact with them. The first question an agent should be asking when they get a call from a buyer is, "Are you working with an agent." There are times buyers don't disclose this and it can cause issues with commissions.

ETA: This lawsuit will likely increase the amount of actual contracts between buyer's agents and buyers. Because it seems the buyers will have to pay their agent directly rather than from the proceeds of the sale. It doesn't really help anything. It becomes more complicated. Here's an example.

For easy math...
House is worth 500K. Old way, it is listed and sells for 500K. At closing the 2 realtors split the 25K commission (5%) that was set on the listing.

New way: Owner lists and sells for 500K. Seller pays their listing agent 12.5K. But the buyer is under contract to pay their agent 12.5K (obviously, this number is whatever they negotiate). But buyers don't always have thousands extra laying around at closing. So they will perhaps write an offer that asks for 12.5K back at closing. Similar to how buyers will ask for closing costs back at closing. In the end the seller took home 475K in both scenarios.

One benefit I could see is in competition among buyer's agents. If the commission is now set at the listing, the buyer can hire any agent. But if there is a contract with the buyer's agent that sets the commission, the buyer's agents can compete with lower commission/pay.I did not state my so-called "buyers agent" did not receive a commission. I said he did nothing to earn it. All he did was follow me around. He didn't even negotiate the terms. Without him, I would have just contacted the listing agent and finalized the deal with him. Easy, peasy! I did not need a middle man who took it upon himself to state that he was my agent. If I wanted someone representing me, it would be a lawyer or a home inspector.

I owe the agent following me around NOTHING. If the listing agent shares his commission with him, that is a separate deal that I AM NOT a part of.

Therefore, I never had a buyers agent. Just a man following me around waiting to get paid for merely showing up.

A buyer does not have to pay an agent. EVER! He or she can contact the listing agent and proceed from there.

IMHO, This is the ethical way for agents to sell homes. If a buyer approaches or contacts you wanting to see a property that IS NOT your listing, you must say so. Then immediately contact the listing agent and tell him that a buyer is interested in seeing his listing. 'When can you meet with him?" Is that too hard? If so, give the interested buyer the listing agent's contact information. Then say, "nice meeting you!"

I tried to explain this by using a car dealership as an example. A sales representative assists you while you are looking at cars in his shop. He does not follow you to every dealership waiting for you to buy. Then say, "Hey! You owe me commission! I am her agent." If this example sounds silly to you, then the practice of a buyer's agent is just as silly.


I hope the practice of a buyers agent is banned in all states. If banned, this will save sellers quite a bit of money by not having to pay high commissions.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Now that is semantics. Legally, the entire commission is paid by the seller. Just read the settlement statement where the commission is listed on the seller's side of the statement. Whatever money changes hands between the brokers is a private agreement between them. Under contract law, the buyer could never sue the broker to get back a commission because he never paid a commission.

That's because the only time the commission is paid, is AFTER the sale has closed. At that point, the buyer ceases to be the buyer and becomes the homeowner. And the commission was built into the price he paid for the home. It's in the contract. The sales price INCLUDES the commission.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Why do folks who have little or no knowledge, insist on posting about subjects they know little or nothing about?

There is no such thing as a "REALTOR®" license. A REALTOR® is simple a Broker, who joins the National Association of Realtors and agrees to adhere to their ethical requirements ... and pays their fees every year.

There is no way to be a REALTOR®, without belonging to the Association and paying dues.

In most states, there are two levels of Real Estate "professionals". Sales People and Brokers. There are no states that offer a License as a "Realtor" ... that's a made up word, by the Nation Association of Realtors.

Think of them as the difference between a Master Plumber and a Journeyman Plumber. The Journeyman can do most every job the Master can do, but he can't have any employees working under him. A Real Estate Salesperson can do most anything a Broker can do, but must work under the auspices of a Broker.

In most states, a non-licensed person can work directly for a Developer or Home Builder, selling homes or property.

Why are you calling me out for not knowing what I'm talking about, when you just said the same thing I did, but with more words?

[shaw8700@outlook.com]

Yes, it is different in Florida. If it is listed in the contract as allowed by Massachusetts law, there is nothing unethical. Knowing this, I probably will never buy a house in Massachusetts. I am not going to pay someone to do something I can do myself. How hard is it to look at MLS listings to find what you like.

If you COULD look at the MLS. In most states that is proprietary to Realtors.

[margaretmattson]

That's because the only time the commission is paid, is AFTER the sale has closed. At that point, the buyer ceases to be the buyer and becomes the homeowner. And the commission was built into the price he paid for the home. It's in the contract. The sales price INCLUDES the commission.A buyer DOES NOT HAVE A CONTRACT The commission is something the seller agreed to pay from the sales when signing a contract with an agent. It is the seller's expense.

The buyer throughout the entire process has no idea what commission was paid and to whom. They are never a part of that. It is possible there is a clause in the seller's contract that states zero commission paid if home does not sell at agreed upon price.

[margaretmattson]

If you COULD look at the MLS. In most states that is proprietary to Realtors.I have never come across a state where this is true. I simply type homes for sale in the city I am interested in. Instantly, I have several sites to choose from: Zillow, Realtor, Trulia, Compass, etc. Each lists the homes for sale in that particular city. Not once have I encountered a city that blocks the information.

[BrianL99]

If you COULD look at the MLS. In most states that is proprietary to Realtors.

Yes it's proprietary, but the majority of the information is publicly available in most states. Up until a couple of years ago, the commission structure wasn't generally available, but a fairly recent DOJ agreement changed that and as evidenced by the recent lawsuit, the situation is in flux.

ERROR: The request could not be satisfied (https://www.redfin.com/news/real-estate-commission-transparency/)

[Robnlaura]

And, this is how a lawsuit was won. A realtor cannot be a buyer's agent. The job of a realtor is to represent the seller at all times. A potential buyer does not need to contract with a realtor.

Absolutely no clue

[margaretmattson]

Yes it's proprietary, but the majority of the information is publicly available in most states. Up until a couple of years ago, the commission structure wasn't generally available, but a fairly recent DOJ agreement changed that and as evidenced by the recent lawsuit, the situation is in flux.

ERROR: The request could not be satisfied (https://www.redfin.com/news/real-estate-commission-transparency/)Still, a buyer does not have a contract. The buyer negotiated a price he is willing to pay for the home. It is of no concern what the seller does with his profit. Pay an agent 50% or none.. It doesn't matter to the buyer.

[Robnlaura]

Not only can you, but you must. You don't need a "realtors license." But if you want to be employed by the Villages as a sales representative selling their homes, you must have a "real estate" license. "Realtor" is an official title. The owner of a real estate company can be a Realtor, and all his employees be "licensed real estate agents" without being Realtors themselves.

Realtors have different a different set of requirements than licensed real estate agents.

Who gave you that information?? You obviously know very little about real estate that’s a fact.. not even worth my time to correct you..

[margaretmattson]

Absolutely no clue A buyer DOES NOT have a contract with an agent. Without a contract, an agent DOES NOT represent the buyer. He is merely giving advice. A buyer, at anytime, can choose to buy by dealing ONLY with the listing agent or use any agent he chooses to assist him in the deal. He is never tied to one agent.

A seller on the other hand has a contract with an agent. They negotiate a commission and the funds for paying the stated commission are TAKEN OUT OF THE SELLER'S PROFIT.

A buyer could care less if an agent gets paid. He is not legally bound to pay an agent.THE SELLER IS! Therefore, all real estate agents represent the seller.

[PjLyness1965]

A buyer DOES NOT HAVE A CONTRACT The commission is something the seller agreed to pay from the sales when signing a contract with an agent. It is the seller's expense.

The buyer throughout the entire process has no idea what commission was paid and to whom. They are never a part of that. It is possible there is a clause in the seller's contract that states zero commission paid if home does not sell at agreed upon price.

Please stop posting. You’re clueless about how real estate transactions work.

[PjLyness1965]

I did not state my so-called "buyers agent" did not receive a commission. I said he did nothing to earn it. All he did was follow me around. He didn't even negotiate the terms. Without him, I would have just contacted the listing agent and finalized the deal with him. Easy, peasy! I did not need a middle man who took it upon himself to state that he was my agent. If I wanted someone representing me, it would be a lawyer or a home inspector.

I owe the agent following me around NOTHING. If the listing agent shares his commission with him, that is a separate deal that I AM NOT a part of.

Therefore, I never had a buyers agent. Just a man following me around waiting to get paid for merely showing up.

A buyer does not have to pay an agent. EVER! He or she can contact the listing agent and proceed from there.

IMHO, This is the ethical way for agents to sell homes. If a buyer approaches or contacts you wanting to see a property that IS NOT your listing, you must say so. Then immediately contact the listing agent and tell him that a buyer is interested in seeing his listing. 'When can you meet with him?" Is that too hard? If so, give the interested buyer the listing agent's contact information. Then say, "nice meeting you!"

I tried to explain this by using a car dealership as an example. A sales representative assists you while you are looking at cars in his shop. He does not follow you to every dealership waiting for you to buy. Then say, "Hey! You owe me commission! I am her agent." If this example sounds silly to you, then the practice of a buyer's agent is just as silly.


I hope the practice of a buyers agent is banned in all states. If banned, this will save sellers quite a bit of money by not having to pay high commissions.

Without an agent you can’t get in the house to see it unless it’s an open house. No seller with a brain will let you in the house without one. It’s a safety issue. The agent earned a commission by “following you around” because he granted you entry into those houses. You’re just too cheap to pay him for his time.

[Dusty_Star]

A buyer DOES NOT have a contract .

You could modify this to contain 'in Florida'. In other states buyers can indeed sign a contract with a buyers agent. Another poster repeatedly kept mentioning Massachusetts & they are not wrong.

[margaretmattson]

Please stop posting. You’re clueless about how real estate transactions work.I know contract law. Without a contract, an agent DOES NOT represent the buyer. PERIOD!

I will keep posting that information because some agents try to convince buyers they cannot purchase a home without them.That is NOT CORRECT. A buyer simply has to deal with the agent who has listed the home. If he chooses to use an outside agent, he is free to do so. But, he is NEVER OBLIGATED.

[margaretmattson]

You could modify this to contain 'in Florida'. In other states buyers can indeed sign a contract with a buyers agent. Another poster repeatedly kept mentioning Massachusetts & they are not wrong.Thank you. CAN and COULD is a choice. It does not mean a buyer MUST

[margaretmattson]

Without an agent you can’t get in the house to see it unless it’s an open house. No seller with a brain will let you in the house without one. It’s a safety issue. The agent earned a commission by “following you around” because he granted you entry into those houses. You’re just too cheap to pay him for his time.Hmmm...Why does a buyer have to use an outside agent? Simply call the listing agent to open the house for you. It's not rocket science!
Then, negotiate a dealwith him. It is much easier that way since he represents the seller.

I don't have to be cheap and worry about paying an outside agent. A BUYER DOES NOT PAY THE COMMISSION. THE SELLER DOES! I don't sweat about ZERO dollars I owe. How could that bother me in any way?

[retiredguy123]

That's because the only time the commission is paid, is AFTER the sale has closed. At that point, the buyer ceases to be the buyer and becomes the homeowner. And the commission was built into the price he paid for the home. It's in the contract. The sales price INCLUDES the commission.
Not true. Legally, the seller owes the commission when the broker finds a willing buyer. There have been cases where the broker has sued a seller for the commission because the seller backed out of the sale and the house was not sold. Read the listing contract. The broker earns the commission when he/she locates a willing buyer for the house, not when the closing occurs. The listing contract and the sales contract are two separate contracts.

[frayedends]

Hmmm...Why does a buyer have to use an outside agent? Simply call the listing agent to open the house for you. It's not rocket science!
Then, negotiate a contract with him. Much easier that way since he represents the seller.

I don't have to be cheap and worry about paying an outside agent. A BUYER DOES NOT PAY THE COMMISsION. THE SELLER DOES! I don't sweat about ZERO dollars I owe. How could that bother me in any way?

A buyer's agent should be making sure you are paying a fair price. A buyer's agent should be making sure you have financing lined up. A buyer's agent should make sure you sign contracts on time and have the requirements met on time (so you don't lose your deposit). A buyer's agent should be searching listings for houses that meet your needs, setting up appointments, helping get the home inspection done. There are lots they should be doing and if yours did nothing (I think you posted something about that), then you didn't get a good agent.


Now, onto the lawsuit and payments etc. It should be noted the lawsuit really is bogus if you think about it this way... The seller agrees a commission payment to their listing agent. If the seller agent chooses to pay a buyer's agent part of that commission (which the seller agrees to when signing the listing contract), it's no one's business how they chose to spend their commission.

[frayedends]

Hmmm...Why does a buyer have to use an outside agent? Simply call the listing agent to open the house for you. It's not rocket science!
Then, negotiate a contract with him. Much easier that way since he represents the seller.

I don't have to be cheap and worry about paying an outside agent. A BUYER DOES NOT PAY THE COMMISsION. THE SELLER DOES! I don't sweat about ZERO dollars I owe. How could that bother me in any way?

You are correct in this post. As I mentioned, just above, the seller's agent might be paying the buyer's agent from that commission. It works out to the same thing if there is a buyer's agent.

You can contact listing agents, you can see the house, make an offer, buy it, all without a buyer's agent. The listing agent will probably still get the full commission and not be giving any to a buyer's agent. But where does that leave the buyer? Paying the same amount and being unrepresented. Seller's agent has no reason to tell you if the house is overpriced, or if your inspector has a bad reputation, or your late on your mortgage commitment, etc.

You can protect yourself a bit with the real estate attorney, of course, but again, the commission isn't less. Maybe, just maybe on a deal in a bad market the seller's agent will reduce their commission if the buyer is unrepresented, but don't count on it.

[margaretmattson]

You are correct in this post. As I mentioned, just above, the seller's agent might be paying the buyer's agent from that commission. It works out to the same thing if there is a buyer's agent.

You can contact listing agents, you can see the house, make an offer, buy it, all without a buyer's agent. The listing agent will probably still get the full commission and not be giving any to a buyer's agent. But where does that leave the buyer? Paying the same amount and being unrepresented. Seller's agent has no reason to tell you if the house is overpriced, or if your inspector has a bad reputation, or your late on your mortgage commitment, etc.

You can protect yourself a bit with the real estate attorney, of course, but again, the commission isn't less. Maybe, just maybe on a deal in a bad market the seller's agent will reduce their commission if the buyer is unrepresented, but don't count on it.???? Why would a buyer care if the commission is reduced? He is not paying it! The only negotiation made with the listing agent is a purchase price both parties can agree upon.

Wrong! The listing agent must provide comparables, provide a reputable inspector or allow a buyer to choose an inspector. The listing agent works under a broker or is a broker himself. A broker MUST
make certain the deal was closed legally with no underhanded shenanigans. Any wrongdoing and they can lose their license. An outside agent is not responsible for any of this.

Again, I hope the practice of a buyers agent is banned in every state.

[margaretmattson]

A buyer's agent should be making sure you are paying a fair price. A buyer's agent should be making sure you have financing lined up. A buyer's agent should make sure you sign contracts on time and have the requirements met on time (so you don't lose your deposit). A buyer's agent should be searching listings for houses that meet your needs, setting up appointments, helping get the home inspection done. There are lots they should be doing and if yours did nothing (I think you posted something about that), then you didn't get a good agent.


Now, onto the lawsuit and payments etc. It should be noted the lawsuit really is bogus if you think about it this way... The seller agrees a commission payment to their listing agent. If the seller agent chooses to pay a buyer's agent part of that commission (which the seller agrees to when signing the listing contract), it's no one's business how they chose to spend their commission.Nope! A Buyer is responsible for lining up financing. An agent has nothing to do with it. It is only between the lender and the buyer. Fair price is determined by comparables in the same area. A listing agent has to use them to determine the price. If the price is overinflated, the bank will deny the loan.Buyers are adults. They know how to sign papers on time.A buyer can make his own appointments. And, an inspection can be set up by the listing agent, the broker, or the buyer. Once a home closes an outside agent is not responsible for anything. The listing agent and the broker will be held accountable. Who should you trust? The agent(s) who are legally accountable or an outside agent whose only interest is getting paid?

The lawsuit protects sellers from paying outlandish commissions. The seller owes one person when the home closes - the listing agent. Collusion to increase commissions so that a sum can be shared by several agents is the reason for the lawsuit. I agree with the outcome. The seller did not sign a contract with the outside agents. He is not responsible for paying them.

[frayedends]

???? Why would a buyer care if the commission is reduced? He is not paying it! The only negotiation made with the listing agent is a purchase price both parties can agree upon.

Wrong! The listing agent must provide comparables, provide a reputable inspector or allow a buyer to choose an inspector. The listing agent works under a broker or is a broker himself. A broker MUST
make certain the deal was closed legally with no underhanded shenanigans. Any wrongdoing and they can lose their license. An outside agent is not responsible for any of this.

Again, I hope the practice of a buyers agent is banned in every state.

Regarding commission I meant if they pass that savings along to the buyer. For example say an offer is for 500k but the seller wants 515k. The listing agent may say “I’ll lower the commission if you want to accept this offer”. That happens all the time, especially if the home isn’t selling. I’ve had it happen to me.

Regarding the rest of your post I am not wrong. Yes, it has to be legal. But the listing agent doesn’t have to provide comps or an inspector or anything other than doing what’s in the purchase contract.

[frayedends]

Nope! A Buyer is responsible for lining up financing. An agent has nothing to do with it. It is only between the lender and the buyer. Fair price is determined by comparables in the same area. A listing agent has to use them to determine the price. If the price is overinflated, the bank will deny the loan.Buyers are adults. They know how to sign papers on time.A buyer can make his own appointments. And, an inspection can be set up by the listing agent, the broker, or the buyer. Once a home closes an outside agent is not responsible for anything. The listing agent and the broker will be held accountable. Who should you trust? The agent(s) who are legally accountable or an outside agent whose only interest is getting paid?

The lawsuit protects sellers from paying outlandish commissions. The seller owes one person when the home closes - the listing agent. Collusion to increase commissions so that a sum can be shared by several agents is the reason for the lawsuit. I agree with the outcome. The seller did not sign a contract with the outside agents. He is not responsible for paying them.

This is the problem with the internet. If we don't spell out every single thing, then people read into it. Sure the listing agent can do those things. But it helps to have a buyers agent. The price is set by the seller. Period. The listing agent can tell a seller what it should list for, offer advise, etc. But at the end of the day the Seller, not the agent, determines the price to list at.

You are right, it may not appraise. But what if it's a cash deal? Appraisal doesn't mean a darn thing. If a home is overpriced and a buyer is not educated they can easily overpay. Even if there is a mortgage, buyers can cover the appraisal gap with cash.

Regarding the other items I mentioned, I'm just saying that these are things the buyer's agent can help with. That is all. You take everything I say as if I'm reciting laws. I'm not. I'm saying there are things a buyer's agent should be helping with and that they can offer guidance and help on all kinds of things having to do with the transaction. I never said anything about after the home closes.

You said this..."Who should you trust? The agent(s) who are legally accountable or an outside agent whose only interest is getting paid?"

If there is a buyers agent, that agent works for the buyer. They aren't interested in only getting paid. They are interested in having a buyer get a good deal and the house they want to buy, without issues. Do they need that agent, no. But it can be helpful and the buyers agent has an obligation to the buyer, not the seller.

You also said this, "The lawsuit protects sellers from paying outlandish commissions. The seller owes one person when the home closes - the listing agent. Collusion to increase commissions so that a sum can be shared by several agents is the reason for the lawsuit. I agree with the outcome. The seller did not sign a contract with the outside agents. He is not responsible for paying them."

I'm sorry but you really don't get it. This comment is outlandish. There is no collusion if this commission breakdown is in the listing contract. The seller understands up front that the buyers agent will get a portion. They aren't increasing the commission. The sellers agent is going to get their 6% (or whatever they agree on) and they will either pay a buyers agent a portion or keep the entire 6%. The seller does sign a contract with the listing agent that says a buyers agent gets a portion of the commission. Why don't you get that?

You think this is some hidden backdoor thing between the 2 agents and that is flat out wrong. The commission breakdown is in the contract. It's not a secret.

[margaretmattson]

Regarding commission I meant if they pass that savings along to the buyer. For example say an offer is for 500k but the seller wants 515k. The listing agent may say “I’ll lower the commission if you want to accept this offer”. That happens all the time, especially if the home isn’t selling. I’ve had it happen to me.

Regarding the rest of your post I am not wrong. Yes, it has to be legal. But the listing agent doesn’t have to provide comps or an inspector or anything other than doing what’s in the purchase contract. If comps, inspection, termite are not provided to the bank, the bank will deny the loan. Therefore, the listing agent will provide them. If it is a cash deal, the buyer may choose to have a so called "buyers agent." But, whose to say the outside agent will protect the buyer? He may be just as inclined to smudge on the details to get a higher commission.

IMHO, it is better for a cash buyer to go to the broker and have him sign off on anything that seems odd. When the deal closes, it is the broker who is legally held accountable. He will make certain the listing agent does everything correctly.

An outside agent uses the title buyers agent. This makes people believe they will be represented fairly. When in fact, once the deal closes, the outside agent is not accountable for a thing.

[dewilson58]

Regarding commission I meant if they pass that savings along to the buyer.

We all knew what you meant...............we just have a new argumentative poster in town.
Well, old poster, new sign-on.

:loco::loco:

[margaretmattson]

This is the problem with the internet. If we don't spell out every single thing, then people read into it. Sure the listing agent can do those things. But it helps to have a buyers agent. The price is set by the seller. Period. The listing agent can tell a seller what it should list for, offer advise, etc. But at the end of the day the Seller, not the agent, determines the price to list at.

You are right, it may not appraise. But what if it's a cash deal? Appraisal doesn't mean a darn thing. If a home is overpriced and a buyer is not educated they can easily overpay. Even if there is a mortgage, buyers can cover the appraisal gap with cash.

Regarding the other items I mentioned, I'm just saying that these are things the buyer's agent can help with. That is all. You take everything I say as if I'm reciting laws. I'm not. I'm saying there are things a buyer's agent should be helping with and that they can offer guidance and help on all kinds of things having to do with the transaction. I never said anything about after the home closes.

You said this..."Who should you trust? The agent(s) who are legally accountable or an outside agent whose only interest is getting paid?"

If there is a buyers agent, that agent works for the buyer. They aren't interested in only getting paid. They are interested in having a buyer get a good deal and the house they want to buy, without issues. Do they need that agent, no. But it can be helpful and the buyers agent has an obligation to the buyer, not the seller.

You also said this, "The lawsuit protects sellers from paying outlandish commissions. The seller owes one person when the home closes - the listing agent. Collusion to increase commissions so that a sum can be shared by several agents is the reason for the lawsuit. I agree with the outcome. The seller did not sign a contract with the outside agents. He is not responsible for paying them."

I'm sorry but you really don't get it. This comment is outlandish. There is no collusion if this commission breakdown is in the listing contract. The seller understands up front that the buyers agent will get a portion. They aren't increasing the commission. The sellers agent is going to get their 6% (or whatever they agree on) and they will either pay a buyers agent a portion or keep the entire 6%. The seller does sign a contract with the listing agent that says a buyers agent gets a portion of the commission. Why don't you get that?

You think this is some hidden backdoor thing between the 2 agents and that is flat out wrong. The commission breakdown is in the contract. It's not a secret.The brokers lost in court. They were found guilty of colluding. I didn't make it up and I have no problem understanding it.

[PjLyness1965]

Hmmm...Why does a buyer have to use an outside agent? Simply call the listing agent to open the house for you. It's not rocket science!
Then, negotiate a dealwith him. It is much easier that way since he represents the seller.

I don't have to be cheap and worry about paying an outside agent. A BUYER DOES NOT PAY THE COMMISSION. THE SELLER DOES! I don't sweat about ZERO dollars I owe. How could that bother me in any way?

In the state of Florida, the selling agent cannot do that. They cannot represent both the seller and the buyer. When I sold my house, the commission was paid by the buyer.

[frayedends]

The brokers lost in court. They were found guilty of colluding. I didn't make it up and I have no problem understanding it.

I offered my opinion as to why the ruling was wrong. That’s all. It will be appealed. But again that’s just my opinion.

Regarding all this buyers agent stuff, clearly you experienced a bad buyers agent. I understand as I had an agent do the same to me. Showed me the house, disappeared and did nothing else but show up at the closing for their check. I get you are butthurt about it. But not all buyers agents are like that. I’ve seen way more good agents since my bad experience (that was over 20 years ago).

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

A buyer DOES NOT HAVE A CONTRACT The commission is something the seller agreed to pay from the sales when signing a contract with an agent. It is the seller's expense.

The buyer throughout the entire process has no idea what commission was paid and to whom. They are never a part of that. It is possible there is a clause in the seller's contract that states zero commission paid if home does not sell at agreed upon price.

The. Buyer. Has. A. Contract. With. The. Seller.

The. Seller. Builds. The. Seller's. Agent's. Commission. Into. The. Seller's. Sales. Price.

Whatever the seller wants to get for his house, he ADDS whatever the Agent has to get, to his "best and final" bottom line. It is the number he will not go below, to sell his house. The commission is built into that price. The buyer pays that price, OR the buyer doesn't get the house.

[manaboutown]

But already the NAR and several real estate brokerages are facing another lawsuit over agent commission rules. Fresh off winning the verdict in the 2019 case, the lawyers filed a new class-action lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Missouri that seeks class-action status covering anyone in the U.S. who sold a home in the last five years. It names the trade association and seven brokerage companies, including Redfin Corp., Weichert Realtors and Compass Inc.

“What’s at issue nationwide is costing Americans about $60 billion in extra real estate commissions,” said Michael Ketchmark, one of the attorneys representing the plaintiffs in the lawsuits.

The focus of the lawsuits is an NAR rule that requires that home sellers offer to pay the commission for the agent representing the homebuyer when they advertise their property on a local Multiple Listings Service, where a majority of U.S. homes are listed for sale. This is in addition to also having to cover the commission for their listing agent or broker.

The NAR's rules also prohibit a buyer's agent from making home purchase offers contingent on the reduction of their commission, according to the complaint.

“Defendants’ conspiracy forces home sellers to pay a cost that, in a competitive market and were it not for defendants’ anticompetitive restraint, would be paid by the buyer,” the plaintiffs argued in the lawsuit filed Tuesday.
Plaintiffs also claim that the NAR requirement effectively keeps commissions for a homebuyer's agent artificially high.

If NAR’s “Mandatory Offer of Compensation Rule” were not in place, then homebuyers would foot the bill for their agent's commission, which would open the door for competition — and lower commissions — among agents vying to represent a homebuyer, the plaintiffs contend.

From: Real estate industry facing pushback to longstanding rules setting agent commissions on home sales (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/real-estate-industry-facing-pushback-200841138.html)

[Normal]

Just eliminate the middleman gauging routine. More and more are realizing this is the 21st Century and the internet does most of the work for the realtor. Sell on Zillow for free. It’s what The Villages and others use.

Access to this page has been denied (https://www.zillow.com/the-villages-fl/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C% 22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%2 2north%22%3A29.049804440270766%2C%22south%22%3A28. 705883370867284%2C%22east%22%3A-81.7480724584961%2C%22west%22%3A-82.23215754150391%7D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22s ort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22% 7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%7D%2C%22i sListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A11%2C%22r egionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A7403%2C %22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%7D)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If that class action ends up being legit I'll enter it. My house up north was listed on the MLS by a licensed agent of a known Broker in the area. Almost two weeks after he accepted the contract, we still didn't have a for sale sign on our front lawn. He said he'd hire a professional to come and take pictures - but he took them all with his cell phone and posted them on the listing - which showed up on the listing websites almost a week after he accepted the contract.

We had a buyer within the first few months, but after a month of going back and forth with them, we found out they were getting a VA mortgage and our home wasn't a qualifying home due to a couple of repairs needed that are on the disqualifying list. We knew this when we put the house up for sale, and the house was listed "AS IS". Our agent knew the buyer was getting a mortgage, and didn't ask what kind - so we didn't know the buyer wasn't ALLOWED to buy the house until 3 weeks before closing.

Another buyer was all set to sign but wanted a whole bunch of repairs. Even though the listing said AS IS. Our agent pushed us to do the repairs, or lower the price to accommodate the costs of repairs to the buyer. Even though - he knew that we had listed the home AS IS and had already lowered our selling price once so far.

A third buyer put a deposit down - a non-refundable deposit. Then he got a divorce, and backed out of the contract. He demanded his deposit back. Our agent urged us to just go ahead and give it back, because the buyer's lawyer would just stick us in court indefinitely and we wouldn't be allowed to sell the house while there was still a deposit on it in escrow.

So of course we trusted him, and gave the non-refundable deposit back.

Meanwhile, we were using up our life insurance money to pay the mortgage because hubby's department had been closed down a year before, and we had only my part-time minimum wage income to pay the bills.

I ended up taking better pictures of the rooms and features of the house. Hubby did cosmetic work on it. I also rewrote the listing description because our agent couldn't write a complete sentence to save his life.

So WE did most of the work. And our agent took his commission. Almost a year after we put it on the market, it sold, and we couldn't afford to live in a block and stucco or wood frame construction home as we had wanted to, because we had to reduce the price even more. That agent took over $8000 from us. But we did most of the work.

So yeah if there's a chance I can get some of that back, you bet I will.

[frayedends]

If that class action ends up being legit I'll enter it. My house up north was listed on the MLS by a licensed agent of a known Broker in the area. Almost two weeks after he accepted the contract, we still didn't have a for sale sign on our front lawn. He said he'd hire a professional to come and take pictures - but he took them all with his cell phone and posted them on the listing - which showed up on the listing websites almost a week after he accepted the contract.

We had a buyer within the first few months, but after a month of going back and forth with them, we found out they were getting a VA mortgage and our home wasn't a qualifying home due to a couple of repairs needed that are on the disqualifying list. We knew this when we put the house up for sale, and the house was listed "AS IS". Our agent knew the buyer was getting a mortgage, and didn't ask what kind - so we didn't know the buyer wasn't ALLOWED to buy the house until 3 weeks before closing.

Another buyer was all set to sign but wanted a whole bunch of repairs. Even though the listing said AS IS. Our agent pushed us to do the repairs, or lower the price to accommodate the costs of repairs to the buyer. Even though - he knew that we had listed the home AS IS and had already lowered our selling price once so far.

A third buyer put a deposit down - a non-refundable deposit. Then he got a divorce, and backed out of the contract. He demanded his deposit back. Our agent urged us to just go ahead and give it back, because the buyer's lawyer would just stick us in court indefinitely and we wouldn't be allowed to sell the house while there was still a deposit on it in escrow.

So of course we trusted him, and gave the non-refundable deposit back.

Meanwhile, we were using up our life insurance money to pay the mortgage because hubby's department had been closed down a year before, and we had only my part-time minimum wage income to pay the bills.

I ended up taking better pictures of the rooms and features of the house. Hubby did cosmetic work on it. I also rewrote the listing description because our agent couldn't write a complete sentence to save his life.

So WE did most of the work. And our agent took his commission. Almost a year after we put it on the market, it sold, and we couldn't afford to live in a block and stucco or wood frame construction home as we had wanted to, because we had to reduce the price even more. That agent took over $8000 from us. But we did most of the work.

So yeah if there's a chance I can get some of that back, you bet I will.

First sorry you had such a crappy listing agent. But nothing you mentioned has to do with buyers agents and commissions.

But I will mention that my realtor also often has to explain the VA or FHA restrictions. She’s had sellers agents that didn’t even know the mortgage limits are different depending on the area. But that’s why she’s a top agent and many agents don’t do well at all.

Regarding the lawsuit and competition, it’s true that there may be more competition if buyers pay their agent directly. But the fact it hasn’t been done that way doesn’t make it fraudulent. I don’t see how people would have financial recourse for something they signed in the contract. The only financial recourse I could see is if a buyers agent stated there was no cost to the seller for his commission. That wouldn’t be entirely accurate.

[BrianL99]

A buyer DOES NOT have a contract with an agent. Without a contract, an agent DOES NOT represent the buyer. He is merely giving advice. A buyer, at anytime, can choose to buy by dealing ONLY with the listing agent or use any agent he chooses to assist him in the deal. He is never tied to one agent.

A seller on the other hand has a contract with an agent. They negotiate a commission and the funds for paying the stated commission are TAKEN OUT OF THE SELLER'S PROFIT.

A buyer could care less if an agent gets paid. He is not legally bound to pay an agent.THE SELLER IS! Therefore, all real estate agents represent the seller.

Please stop posting. You’re clueless about how real estate transactions work.


Being completely and utterly clueless, doesn't seem to stop folks who have a need to keep their fingers busy at a keyboard or a need to publicize their ignorance. There's always the "Block Poster" option available. I've found it to be a vital tool for tolerance on this board. Particularly regarding certain clueless posters, who don't seem daunted by constant reprimands and suspensions by the Moderators.

[BrianL99]

You could modify this to contain 'in Florida'. In other states buyers can indeed sign a contract with a buyers agent. Another poster repeatedly kept mentioning Massachusetts & they are not wrong.



I hope the practice of a buyers agent is banned in all states. If banned, this will save sellers quite a bit of money by not having to pay high commissions.

Yeah, let's ban Buyer's Brokers, because no one needs them. Who cares that AARP, the Consumer Federation of America, Money Magazine and the Federal Trade Commission, all advocate the use of a Buyer's Broker.


Florida’s Dirty Little Secret: Transactional Brokerage Leaves Consumers as Clueless as Ever (https://www.tampabaynewswire.com/2018/03/08/floridas-dirty-little-secret-transactional-brokerage-leaves-consumers-as-clueless-as-ever-65968)

"Ralph Nader, the AARP, the Consumer Federation of America, the Federal Trade Commission, Money magazine and other media advocated that buyers should seek out and work with buyer’s brokers to assure that their interests were truly represented."

[Randall55]

Yeah, let's ban Buyer's Brokers, because no one needs them. Who cares that AARP, the Consumer Federation of America, Money Magazine and the Federal Trade Commission, all advocate the use of a Buyer's Broker.


Florida’s Dirty Little Secret: Transactional Brokerage Leaves Consumers as Clueless as Ever (https://www.tampabaynewswire.com/2018/03/08/floridas-dirty-little-secret-transactional-brokerage-leaves-consumers-as-clueless-as-ever-65968)

"Ralph Nader, the AARP, the Consumer Federation of America, the Federal Trade Commission, Money magazine and other media advocated that buyers should seek out and work with buyer’s brokers to assure that their interests were truly represented." In SOME STATES that may be true. In Florida, no. A buyers agent here is not held accountable for a thing because there is no contract with the buyer. If a buyers agent can say and do as HE PLEASES without any recourse, how is the buyer being represented fairly?

A seller HIRES an agent to sell his home. They discuss a price that covers the commission and then signs a contract. In the end, the commission is paid through the seller's funds.

A buyer is not involved in commissions with an agent. The buyer agrees to a purchase price. That is his only commitment.

Since the seller hired the agent and is the only person responsible for paying commissions, it can be rationalized that all agents represent the sellers. Until the SELLER accepts an offer, an agent(s) does not get paid.

[billsr]

Thank you. CAN and COULD is a choice. It does not mean a buyer MUST
I think some of your confusion stems from the fact that you do not understand buyer-broker agreements. I have been using them since the late 1970's. I call mine Right-to-Locate Agreements. The buyer and I agree, in writing, on what we are searching for and a commission amount to be paid by the buyer.

If I receive part of the Seller/Seller Agent's commission than I must subtract that from what the buyer owes

and yes I do rep the buyer with that agreement and I make it very clear to the Seller/Seller's Agent from the very first contact. I also receive a retainer when the R-T-L Agreement is signed. I have an abundance of repeat business and all of my repeat buyer clients require the R-T-L. I am very good at what I do and very knowledgeable so I have no need to search for buyer clients. I, also, get a lot of referrals. I have a reputation for resolving difficult and "impossible" transactions.and accomplishing more than my clients expect. Most of my buyers recognize this and are eager to sign a contract and pay the retainer so that I can rep them.

[billsr]

I would also like to add something. This Class Action suit covers an area that includes about 30,000 Realtors. If the judge OK's the request for treble damages then it would be approximately $5.4 billion. If my math is correct that would be $180,000 per agent. How do they expect to collect this? At best every agent would refuse to pay and quit and the real estate industry would collapse. NAR is a trade organization. The attorneys would have to chase all 30,000 agents individually. Please explain to me again... who gains from this other than the Class Action attorneys. Also, remember that the taxpayers are paying for this trial.

[Randall55]

I think some of your confusion stems from the fact that you do not understand buyer-broker agreements. I have been using them since the late 1970's. I call mine Right-to-Locate Agreements. The buyer and I agree, in writing, on what we are searching for and a commission amount to be paid by the buyer.

If I receive part of the Seller/Seller Agent's commission than I must subtract that from what the buyer owes

and yes I do rep the buyer with that agreement and I make it very clear to the Seller/Seller's Agent from the very first contact. I also receive a retainer when the R-T-L Agreement is signed. I have an abundance of repeat business and all of my repeat buyer clients require the R-T-L. I am very good at what I do and very knowledgeable so I have no need to search for buyer clients. I, also, get a lot of referrals. I have a reputation for resolving difficult and "impossible" transactions.and accomplishing more than my clients expect. Most of my buyers recognize this and are eager to sign a contract and pay the retainer so that I can rep them.Do you work as an agent in Florida? I am a contractor who has bought and sold homes throughout Florida. I have never come across a buyer who had a contract with his buyers agent. When selling my remodeled homes, I was responsible for paying ALL of the commissions.

A buyer in Florida does not NEED to use a buyers agent. It is a choice. A buyer can deal with the listing agent direct, or use the help of a knowledgeable friend or relative, hire a home inspector to look at the home before signing the contract, get an attorney to close the deal, etc.

The buyer DOES NOT have to rely on an outside agent who is a stranger to him. He can ask for help from anyone he is comfortable with to get fair representation. If he chooses to use an outside agent, aka buyers agent, the SELLER pays the buyers agent commission. The buyer IS NOT responsible for those fees.

I suspect once the rules are changed in the real estate profession due to this lawsuit, a Know Your Rights fact sheet will have to be given to every buyer. Most buyers are unaware that they DO NOT HAVE to use a buyers agent to represent them.

Real Estate agents chiming in on this thread trying to convince readers a buyers agent is necessary is alarming to me. I have not read the lawsuit, but I believe this practice should be stopped. Brokers and agents insisting that a buyer cannot close a deal without a buyers agent is part of the reason commissions are highly inflated.

[Randall55]

Being completely and utterly clueless, doesn't seem to stop folks who have a need to keep their fingers busy at a keyboard or a need to publicize their ignorance. There's always the "Block Poster" option available. I've found it to be a vital tool for tolerance on this board. Particularly regarding certain clueless posters, who don't seem daunted by constant reprimands and suspensions by the Moderators.Clueless is in the eyes of the beholder. I suppose you believe a buyers agent is necessary. Your belief doesn't make it a fact. I have closed real estate deals with MANY intelligent adults who did not need a buyer's agent holding their hand throughout the process.

Curious question. How do you know a poster has gotten reprimands or suspensions from a moderator? Are you a moderator? Are you personal friends with a moderator? It seems the post you have made is direct insults to another poster. Strange that it has not been deleted by a moderator.

[billsr]

Realtor status has nothing to do with obtaining a license. The NAR is a trade organization not a state licensing organization. It is like the AMA for doctors or the Bar Association for attorneys. You can be licensed by the state and not belong to the NAR. You cannot use the designation "Realtor" unless you belong to NAR (joining after you get your license).

[Normal]

Realtor status has nothing to do with obtaining a license. The NAR is a trade organization not a state licensing organization. It is like the AMA for doctors or the Bar Association for attorneys. You can be licensed by the state and not belong to the NAR. You cannot use the designation "Realtor" unless you belong to NAR (joining after you get your license).

Yes, if you are a designated certified “realtor” then you are now considered a registered crook. The term is a bit disparaging, kind of like a “landlord”.

[frayedends]

Just found out from a prominent villages real estate agent (MLS) that there can indeed be a contract for a buyers agent in Florida (though she rarely uses one). Also the agent can act as a transactional agent representing both buyer and seller. But that can get tricky if issues arise. Her video is on YouTube. Her name is Robyn Cavallaro. The video title mentions what buyers agent can do. She basically confirmed everything I’ve said in this thread.

[Randall55]

Just found out from a prominent villages real estate agent (MLS) that there can indeed be a contract for a buyers agent in Florida (though she rarely uses one). Also the agent can act as a transactional agent representing both buyer and seller. But that can get tricky if issues arise. Her video is on YouTube. Her name is Robyn Cavallaro. The video title mentions what buyers agent can do. She basically confirmed everything I’ve said in this thread.You must have misunderstood her. A dual agency in Florida is prohibited. Read the Florida real estate law. No one on this thread stated a buyer could not have a contract in Florida with an agent. We all stated it is a choice. You DO NOT have to use a buyers agent to close a real estate transaction.

Yes, most buyers agents in Florida do not use contracts. The reason? The buyer would have to pay the purchase price of the home PLUS A FEE to the buyers agent.

A buyers agent does not get paid until the SELLER accepts an offer. The buyers agent then receives his commission through the SELLERS FUNDS. This is the reason for the lawsuit. It causes inflated commissions for THE SELLER.

Once real estate laws change due to this lawsuit, a buyer will HAVE to pay his agent out of his pocket. I highly doubt a buyer is going to pay his buyers agent an additional $12,500 on top of the purchase of a $500,000 home. They will deal direct with the listing agent where they will have no additional cost. See? Inflated commissions gone!

[manaboutown]

Just found out from a prominent villages real estate agent (MLS) that there can indeed be a contract for a buyers agent in Florida (though she rarely uses one). Also the agent can act as a transactional agent representing both buyer and seller. But that can get tricky if issues arise. Her video is on YouTube. Her name is Robyn Cavallaro. The video title mentions what buyers agent can do. She basically confirmed everything I’ve said in this thread.

Buyer's agency, Seller's agency, transactional brokerage and no brokerage relationship are all possible in Florida. Dual agency is not allowed as that requires an agent's fiduciary duty extend to both buyer and seller. Chapter 475 Section 278 - 2023 Florida Statutes (https://m.flsenate.gov/Statutes/475.278)

Over the years I have utilized licensees in every one of these capacities in multiple states in both residential and commercial purchases and sales.

[margaretmattson]

You must have misunderstood her. A dual agency in Florida is prohibited. Read the Florida real estate law. No one on this thread stated a buyer could not have a contract in Florida with an agent. We all stated it is a choice. You DO NOT have to use a buyers agent to close a real estate transaction.

Yes, most buyers agents in Florida do not use contracts. The reason? The buyer would have to pay the purchase price of the home PLUS A FEE to the buyers agent.

A buyers agent does not get paid until the SELLER accepts an offer. The buyers agent then receives his commission through the SELLERS FUNDS. This is the reason for the lawsuit. It causes inflated commissions for THE SELLER.

Once real estate laws change due to this lawsuit, a buyer will HAVE to pay his agent out of his pocket. I highly doubt a buyer is going to pay his buyers agent an additional $12,500 on top of the purchase of a $500,000 home. They will deal direct with the listing agent where they will have no additional cost. See? Inflated commissions gone!I never use a buyers agent. I deal with the listing agent direct. So much easier!

[Normal]

All this is for not…the flat fee is coming! No more percentages will apply.

[billsr]

Everybody here who talks about eliminating Buyer Brokers should read this carefully. The lawsuit is setting the opposite situation. It is encouraging more buyer representation with the buyer paying their own fee.

[billsr]

Please go online and research the legal pros and cons of your decision to use the Seller's Broker.

[margaretmattson]

Everybody here who talks about eliminating Buyer Brokers should read this carefully. The lawsuit is setting the opposite situation. It is encouraging more buyer representation with the buyer paying their own fee.I believe we understand that. Are you going to pay your buyers agent $10,0000+ out of your pocket to help you buy a home? That cost is in addition to the sales price.

Good news! You won't have to! Don't use a buyers agent and deal with the listing agent direct. No fees for you!

[billsr]

Randall55-
An agent can work with a buyer but they do not represent them unless they have a signed contract with them. If there is no contract then the agent is representing the Seller as a sub-agent of the Seller's agent. There are all kinds of laws about who can do and say what in these agency situations centered around fiduciary responsibility and confidentiality.

Legally, a buyer who does not have a contract with an agent is a prospect or a customer whereas a buyer with a contract is a "client". That contract between the Buyer and his agent should stipulate how he/she gets paid and by whom. It could be the buyer, the seller or both paying the fees.

One of the problems with the lawsuit is that they are basically pushing the business to use Buyer Broker agreements. If that becomes a reality and the Buyer is responsible for the buying side fees there is no provision in the financing industry to cover that. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, VA and all of the government lending operations do not allow that commission to be financed and they usually set the tone for what is the norm.

[billsr]

Randall5-
In regards to the fiduciary responsibility and confidentiality...

If you and I have a Buyers Broker Agreement, then I must NOT share anything you tell me with the Seller or the Sellers Agent without your permission. If you write an offer and tell me that you are willing to go higher, I cannot share that info. However, if the Seller or their agent told me that he/she was willing to go lower, I am obligated to share that with you. If the Seller's Agent tells me that the seller is willing to go lower, then he has breached his responsibility to the seller. If you take advantage of it and the seller discovers the breach, he can sue his agent for the difference in price and recover it.

[billsr]

Margaretmattson-
Yes, because I believe they will save or gain me more than that.

However, how do you see this unfolding? Are the sellers going to reduce prices to account for the reductions in commissions? Or the same thing for listing agents? How does anybody really gain? Yes, you can use the listing agent but they owe 100% loyalty to the Seller, not you.

It is like going to trial and using the opponent's attorney. If you had seen all the losses and mistakes that I have, you would feel different. To your good fortune you have only seen no problem deals but all you need is one bad deal to lose big $$$. Under your theory why not drop your insurance, too.

I once saw a closing agent embezzle $4,000,000 of my client's money. I got it back for them but if I had not been their agent, I would not have even tried.

[margaretmattson]

Please go online and research the legal pros and cons of your decision to use the Seller's Broker.A buyer reviews his pros and cons, in the end, he decides IF he wants a buyers agent.

Two Examples:

1. Suppose a buyer is not against remodeling to get a good price on the home. Who is better to use? A home inspector or someone in construction who can tell him the actual costs of the remodel. Or, a buyers agent who will only tell you "Yeah, that should be easy to fix." Let's close the deal and pay me $10,000. The home inspector's charge would be much less and their information more valuable.

2. A buyer has looked at many homes in the area. He is quite aware of the prices being asked. He finds a comparable home that he likes in that price range. Why does he need a buyers agent? It's highly unlikely that agent is going to get a significant price reduction. He is just going to tell you, "That's a fair price. I think you should buy." The buyer ALREADY KNEW it was a fair price. Do I need to pay the agent $10,000 to tell me that?


There are pros and cons on BOTH sides. A buyer has the CHOICE to decide which is best for him.

Anyone stupid enough to give out his financial standing should expect to be embezzled. When I buy a home, I give a letter from my bank stating I have the funds. No other financial information is provided. I also use a real estate attorney to handle the paperwork. Their fees are about the same as a title company but with more to offer.

[Randall55]

Margaretmattson-
Yes, because I believe they will save or gain me more than that.

However, how do you see this unfolding? Are the sellers going to reduce prices to account for the reductions in commissions? Or the same thing for listing agents? How does anybody really gain? Yes, you can use the listing agent but they owe 100% loyalty to the Seller, not you.

It is like going to trial and using the opponent's attorney. If you had seen all the losses and mistakes that I have, you would feel different. To your good fortune you have only seen no problem deals but all you need is one bad deal to lose big $$$. Under your theory why not drop your insurance, too.

I once saw a closing agent embezzle $4,000,000 of my client's money. I got it back for them but if I had not been their agent, I would not have even tried.Sorry to point this out.You must not have been a good buyer's agent if you allowed $4,000,000 of your client's money to be embezzled. How did the closing agent know he had that kind of money? How did they gain access? It was your responsibility to make certain that information was not divulged.

I am only a contractor. When I deal with a buyer direct, I remind him not to share his financial situation. Even with me! As the seller, I only need a letter from a financial institution that states the buyer has the funds.

IMHO, real estate transactions go bad because the buyers agent is not equipped to handle or give advice on situations. Does a buyers agent see a problem with a home BEFORE the home inspection? Do they see a possible termite infestation? Can they handle changes that need to be made in contracts? etc.etc. No! They are ordinary salesmen.To state anything different is a lie. Your mishandling of your client's funds proves this point.

[frayedends]

Sorry to point this out.You must not have been a good buyer's agent if you allowed $4,000,000 of your client's money to be embezzled. How did the closing agent know he had that kind of money? How did they gain access? It was your responsibility to make certain that information was not divulged.

I am only a contractor. When I deal with a buyer direct, I remind him not to share his financial situation. Even with me! As the seller, I only need a letter from a financial institution that states the buyer has the funds.

IMHO, real estate transactions go bad because the buyers agent is not equipped to handle or give advice on situations. Does a buyers agent see a problem with a home BEFORE the home inspection? Do they see a possible termite infestation? Can they handle changes that need to be made in contracts? etc.etc. No! They are ordinary salesmen.To state anything different is a lie. Your mishandling of your client's funds proves this point.

My wife as a buyers agent finds issues with homes before inspection all the time. She knows what a house will be worth after renovations (for the flipper clients). She finds errors in the purchase and sale contracts that lawyers missed more than you could imagine. She knows the loan limits for VA or FHA loans. She knows what lenders are good and which ones will have crazy requirements. She makes sure contract dates are met so the buyer doesn’t lose their deposit. So yeah.

[Randall55]

My wife as a buyers agent finds issues with homes before inspection all the time. She knows what a house will be worth after renovations (for the flipper clients). She finds errors in the purchase and sale contracts that lawyers missed more than you could imagine. She knows the loan limits for VA or FHA loans. She knows what lenders are good and which ones will have crazy requirements. She makes sure contract dates are met so the buyer doesn’t lose their deposit. So yeah.I understand. You are arguing because your wife is a buyer's agent. I will argue no more. It's rough learning you may lose your job because of a lawsuit. Best of luck! And, I mean that.

[frayedends]

I understand. You are arguing because your wife is a buyer's agent. I will argue no more. It's rough learning some people may lose their job because of a lawsuit. Best of luck! And, I mean that.

She is a buyer's agent and a listing agent. The seller pays the same in most cases, regardless. She won't be losing her job. The lawsuit could change how buyer's agents are paid. There's really nothing to argue about. I'm telling you the things that buyer's agents do. Like all professions, some are good at their job and some aren't. My wife is a top agent for a reason. There are many that aren't great agents. People need to do their research. If they know what they are doing and think they can save money without an agent then go for it. But if you want guidance and don't know all the ins and outs of a real estate transaction you may want to find a good agent. As I said, in most cases (currently) it doesn't cost more.

If you do decide to have no buyer's agent, maybe ask the listing agent up front if they will discount their commission.

[frayedends]

I believe we understand that. Are you going to pay your buyers agent $10,0000+ out of your pocket to help you buy a home? That cost is in addition to the sales price.

Good news! You won't have to! Don't use a buyers agent and deal with the listing agent direct. No fees for you!

This is purely a speculative question. I don't pretend to know the answer. Say they do indeed remove buyer's agent fees from the listing. Do you think listing agents will lower their commission? What if they are no longer making the money as a buyer's agent (most agents do both). If they still charge ~5%, it doesn't really change anything except the buyer isn't represented.

If a buyer now can pay a fee, maybe a fixed fee, they will be paying more if the selling agents aren't lowering commissions. Keep in mind the agents need to make a living.

[Normal]

This is purely a speculative question. I don't pretend to know the answer. Say they do indeed remove buyer's agent fees from the listing. Do you think listing agents will lower their commission? What if they are no longer making the money as a buyer's agent (most agents do both). If they still charge ~5%, it doesn't really change anything except the buyer isn't represented.

If a buyer now can pay a fee, maybe a fixed fee, they will be paying more if the selling agents aren't lowering commissions. Keep in mind the agents need to make a living.

Percentages are the gimmick. That aspect needs eliminated. There are flat fee realtors out there now and they will take over the entire market eventually. A set fee is charged to sell ANY home regardless of its value. The flat fee is about 3-5 thousand dollars for these realtors right now.

[frayedends]

Percentages are the gimmick. That aspect needs eliminated. There are flat fee realtors out there now and they will take over the entire market eventually. A set fee is charged to sell ANY home regardless of its value. The flat fee is about 3-5 thousand dollars for these realtors right now.

That’s a possibility I guess. But I don’t think this lawsuit will force anything like that. That would take a while to become standard as agents create competition. But it takes a lot more to sell a million dollar home than a $200k home. Maybe there will be set fees for different price ranges. Who knows. We are very close to retiring so it won’t affect us much. At 5000 each and 60 sales that’s not a bad living. But expenses can be high for an agent too.

[Normal]

That’s a possibility I guess. But I don’t think this lawsuit will force anything like that. That would take a while to become standard as agents create competition. But it takes a lot more to sell a million dollar home than a $200k home. Maybe there will be set fees for different price ranges. Who knows. We are very close to retiring so it won’t affect us much. At 5000 each and 60 sales that’s not a bad living. But expenses can be high for an agent too.

This is the perfect atmosphere for Flat Fee Realtors. There is one here on MarchBend . You can research the nearest to you no matter where you are selling. They have become quite popular.

There isn’t a reason a realtor should get a windfall jackpot for selling a house when all the paperwork is the same.

We are at a crossroads where kiosks are used at airports, restaurants and for various other services. It will come either way.

[frayedends]

This is the perfect atmosphere for Flat Fee Realtors. There is one here on MarchBend . You can research the nearest to you no matter where you are selling. They have become quite popular.

There isn’t a reason a realtor should get a windfall jackpot for selling a house when all the paperwork is the same.

We are at a crossroads where kiosks are used at airports, restaurants and for various other services. It will come either way.

It’s not just about paperwork. There’s a ton more marketing for a million dollar home. It’s on the market for much longer. Pictures are much more money for larger homes. A 300k house can sell in days after 1 open house. A million dollar home can take 6 months or even much longer to sell. Not apples to apples.

[manaboutown]

It’s not just about paperwork. There’s a ton more marketing for a million dollar home. It’s on the market for much longer. Pictures are much more money for larger homes. A 300k house can sell in days after 1 open house. A million dollar home can take 6 months or even much longer to sell. Not apples to apples.

In Coastal Southern California the cheapest teardown house in a desirable area with even a small peek at the ocean is likely worth at least $3,000,000. A house there at that price could sell in hours with multiple backup offers within a day. Agents fall over themselves to obtain these listings.

[frayedends]

^^^
Every market is different of course.

[manaboutown]

^^^
Every market is different of course.

Yes but the agents there still want 6% to list a property even though selling one is like falling off a log as they have lists of buyers waiting in the wings. Demand is high and available homes for sale are scarce.

[manaboutown]

Wonder what the commission was on this one. Del Mar home sold for $44.1M breaks record set by Bill Gates’ home sale – NBC Los Angeles (https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/national-international/del-mar-home-sold-for-44-1m-breaks-record-set-by-bill-gates-home-sale/3260616/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_LABrand&fbclid=IwAR19e-457bzM04Tphahq4G-c2-x57wJlHU5uwB0dG0OFB4u81Ti6TrUwygU)

[Normal]

Wonder what the commission was on this one. Del Mar home sold for $44.1M breaks record set by Bill Gates’ home sale – NBC Los Angeles (https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/national-international/del-mar-home-sold-for-44-1m-breaks-record-set-by-bill-gates-home-sale/3260616/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_LABrand&fbclid=IwAR19e-457bzM04Tphahq4G-c2-x57wJlHU5uwB0dG0OFB4u81Ti6TrUwygU)

Listening to the few realtors who responded on this OP, they would tell you it took millions to sell….lol. A 6% commission equates to $2,640,000 for the scam/percentage commission. We all know the home mostly sold itself. Banking wires and accounts (there were multiple) was the most difficult portion for title. The fees for those were next to nonexistent though.

The reality of this picture though is that no realtor was involved. A person from family, visitor or someone from a Christmas party liked the house and found out it was for sale. An accountant and lawyer (salaried) from the interested party and seller interacted for a price and it was signed off on.