When will they learn.....

[golfing eagles]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

[rustyp]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?

[golfing eagles]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?

That's a non-sequitur.

You don't have to be a touring pro to rake a bunker, fill a divot or repair a ball mark.

[rustyp]

That's a non-sequitur.

You don't have to be a touring pro to rake a bunker, fill a divot or repair a ball mark.

Au contraire. It is pertinet facta.

[Dusty_Star]

That's a non-sequitur.

You don't have to be a touring pro to rake a bunker, fill a divot or repair a ball mark.

Agree, I have always respected the courses I played on & so did the other golfers I played with & we were certainly not highly skilled. Do you think using the putter to retrieve the ball or trying to pop it out with the flag are due to arthritic knees? It is not something I had seen before. As to not raking a trap & so on, is that laziness? Ignorance? Entitlement seems a stretch, but maybe it is one of those three, depending on the golfer.

[fdpaq0580]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

Maybe they were playing "hurry up" golf and couldn't take the time to rake or fill. Gotta get out of the way of the next high-speed golfers in a hurry to get to the 19th hole.

Seriously though, I agree with you. Golfers are as responsible for the condition of the courses as the maintenance crews.

[golfing eagles]

Au contraire. It is pertinet facta.

Please explain: How so?

[golfing eagles]

Agree, I have always respected the courses I played on & so did the other golfers I played with & we were certainly not highly skilled. Do you think using the putter to retrieve the ball or trying to pop it out with the flag are due to arthritic knees? It is not something I had seen before. As to not raking a trap & so on, is that laziness? Ignorance? Entitlement seems a stretch, but maybe it is one of those three, depending on the golfer.

You can get a suction cup or "basket" that goes on the end of your putter, gently remove the flagstick and then carefully retrieve you balls if you are so "arthritic" that you can bend down to put a ball on a tee but not to get your ball out of the cup.

The lack of raking I attribute to 50% laziness, 50% entitlement. I don't think many golfers think the rakes are there for the Wednesday morning garden club meeting.

and you don't even have to bend to fill a divot

[Dusty_Star]

You can get a suction cup or "basket" that goes on the end of your putter, gently remove the flagstick and then carefully retrieve you balls if you are so "arthritic" that you can bend down to put a ball on a tee but not to get your ball out of the cup.

The lack of raking I attribute to 50% laziness, 50% entitlement. I don't think many golfers think the rakes are there for the Wednesday morning garden club meeting.

and you don't even have to bend to fill a divot

I was really rooting for 'ignorance', you know people just moved to TV & took up golf, never having had fathers, brothers, what have you teach them the game & it's associated responsibilities. Then we might have had a chance with posts like this to improve the general knowledge. No chance whatsoever with laziness &/or entitlement.

[golfing eagles]

I was really rooting for 'ignorance', you know people just moved to TV & took up golf, never having had fathers, brothers, what have you teach them the game & it's associated responsibilities. Then we might have had a chance with posts like this to improve the general knowledge. No chance whatsoever with laziness &/or entitlement.

And the solution to that is a bit more Draconian: Anyone new to golf, been playing less than 10 years or anyone with a handicap, let's say above 20, be required to take the "good golf" course before they are granted playing privileges.

[Goldwingnut]

And the solution to that is a bit more Draconian: Anyone new to golf, been playing less than 10 years or anyone with a handicap, let's say above 20, be required to take the "good golf" course before they are granted playing privileges.

Great thread, and I agree with everything you've said until this post. Your criteria is much too restrictive. It should be EVERYONE, no matter their age, handicap, or how long they've been playing, should take the Good Golf course before being allowed to play on the courses.

Yes, some will take offense because they have been playing "Forever", these are, in my experience for the last 10 years living in The Villages, the ones that need the "refresher" the most. A good golfer will not be offended, they will appreciate the emphasis on the care of the course which improves for the play of the game for all. The less experienced should be exposed to not only how to help maintain the course, but why. Show them an abused bunker, fairway, tee box, and green, and give them the opportunity to putt on a POS green that's been abused by the players, or chip out of a deep footprint on the edge of a bunker, and then on one that has been property cared for, open there eyes! Show them the difference in maintenance cost. Educate them on why it is important! The better the play them more they will love the game, they better they will play (I have to exclude myself from the last part of this statement, nothing is going to help my game).

[Papa_lecki]

Agree, Good thread.
Everyone blames the deteriorating conditions on the maintenance, where really WE can keep the courses nice, especially in the high season

1) I think those playing championships have played more golf and should know better. You’re not paying $50 to play if you’re a beginner or not that good - youll play executive; and have more fun

2) The golfers aren’t even using the rakes, BUT the rakes that are out are 12”; a 20 or 24” rake is much easier to rake and you get a better finished product.

3) The best system that works is loss of golf privilege or loss of access to tee time system for a week or month. I don’t know how that can work here; but technology can help. Upgrade the ID system with RFID tags - or require tags on carts. Rangers don’t need to confront abusers, just be around and see when people don’t rake or fix divots - boom; shut down ID to reserve tee times for a week. Heck, shut down the whole 4 some and it will become self monitoring. Will fix itself in a month.

[Papa_lecki]

It should be EVERYONE, no matter their age, handicap, or how long they've been playing, should take the Good Golf course before being allowed to play on the courses.

Could also have 2 levels of good golf course - one for those with index above 15 and one below - different content.

[Radamo]

I totally agree with this. Why do we "require" villagers to watch a video and take a course before they can step on a pickleball court. But we do not require them to attend Good Golf class before they get golf privileges. It makes no sense.

Great thread, and I agree with everything you've said until this post. Your criteria is much too restrictive. It should be EVERYONE, no matter their age, handicap, or how long they've been playing, should take the Good Golf course before being allowed to play on the courses.

Yes, some will take offense because they have been playing "Forever", these are, in my experience for the last 10 years living in The Villages, the ones that need the "refresher" the most. A good golfer will not be offended, they will appreciate the emphasis on the care of the course which improves for the play of the game for all. The less experienced should be exposed to not only how to help maintain the course, but why. Show them an abused bunker, fairway, tee box, and green, and give them the opportunity to putt on a POS green that's been abused by the players, or chip out of a deep footprint on the edge of a bunker, and then on one that has been property cared for, open there eyes! Show them the difference in maintenance cost. Educate them on why it is important! The better the play them more they will love the game, they better they will play (I have to exclude myself from the last part of this statement, nothing is going to help my game).

[dewilson58]

we "require" villagers to watch a video and take a course before they can step on a pickleball court.

I missed these "requirements".

[golfing eagles]

Agree, Good thread.
Everyone blames the deteriorating conditions on the maintenance, where really WE can keep the courses nice, especially in the high season

1) I think those playing championships have played more golf and should know better. You’re not paying $50 to play if you’re a beginner or not that good - youll play executive; and have more fun

2) The golfers aren’t even using the rakes, BUT the rakes that are out are 12”; a 20 or 24” rake is much easier to rake and you get a better finished product.

3) The best system that works is loss of golf privilege or loss of access to tee time system for a week or month. I don’t know how that can work here; but technology can help. Upgrade the ID system with RFID tags - or require tags on carts. Rangers don’t need to confront abusers, just be around and see when people don’t rake or fix divots - boom; shut down ID to reserve tee times for a week. Heck, shut down the whole 4 some and it will become self monitoring. Will fix itself in a month.

Very difficult here in TV, since the "country clubs" are not truly private courses. I have a friend who is a pro at the Boca Polo Club. They have cameras everywhere and a person watching them from a control room. Every foursome is observed and timed. If they are getting behind, they are notified by speaker and the viewscreen in the cart. If they pull any of the garbage that is routine here (not filling divots, not raking bunkers, not repairing ball marks) they get a letter. Three letters---suspension of privileges for 2 weeks. Five letters or doing something egregious, you're ejected from the club. And since the bond is $150,000, you do not want to get ejected.

Naturally this is an outrageously expensive solution to the problem and somewhat Orwellian as well. More "ambassadors" with more enforcement powers (and the willingness to use them) might help, but we seemed to have gone in the other direction with that.

[golfing eagles]

Great thread, and I agree with everything you've said until this post. Your criteria is much too restrictive. It should be EVERYONE, no matter their age, handicap, or how long they've been playing, should take the Good Golf course before being allowed to play on the courses.

Yes, some will take offense because they have been playing "Forever", these are, in my experience for the last 10 years living in The Villages, the ones that need the "refresher" the most. A good golfer will not be offended, they will appreciate the emphasis on the care of the course which improves for the play of the game for all. The less experienced should be exposed to not only how to help maintain the course, but why. Show them an abused bunker, fairway, tee box, and green, and give them the opportunity to putt on a POS green that's been abused by the players, or chip out of a deep footprint on the edge of a bunker, and then on one that has been property cared for, open there eyes! Show them the difference in maintenance cost. Educate them on why it is important! The better the play them more they will love the game, they better they will play (I have to exclude myself from the last part of this statement, nothing is going to help my game).

Wouldn't object to that either. It just seemed it might be difficult to tell Rory Mcilroy he can't play here with John Rahm, Scottie Sheffler and Victor Hovland until they all attend Good Golf School. And would Patrick Reed have held the course record at Havana if he had to go to school first? (Well, in his case, maybe golf rules school :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:)

Then you get into the problem of guests---how do they qualify to play? My ex brother in law is head pro at a club in Mass.---he came down several times to play--did he need to go to school? And here's another Villages quirk----they only "comp" a visiting PGA pro once a year, after that, full price. I sure hope if Tiger decides he wants to come here often that he brings his wallet. Talk about cheaping out!

So it is a complicated issue. Like my father always aid, "You can't legislate morality"--or in this case golf etiquette.

[Bobendres]

Agree, I have always respected the courses I played on & so did the other golfers I played with & we were certainly not highly skilled. Do you think using the putter to retrieve the ball or trying to pop it out with the flag are due to arthritic knees? It is not something I had seen before. As to not raking a trap & so on, is that laziness? Ignorance? Entitlement seems a stretch, but maybe it is one of those three, depending on the golfer.
It’s laziness. People know. Lots of old lazy people here

[rustyp]

Solution - good golf courses require a caddy, IPSO FACTO !

101132

[dewilson58]

Age-old problem.

For once, size does not matter:
Handicap doesn't matter.
Investment portfolio doesn't matter.
Green fees don't matter.

It's a lack of pride, respect & responsibility.

Like other posts.............it's expensive, but the courses need to be policed (unfortunately).

[Bobendres]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
Thanks for calling this out. I agree people need to take better care of these nice courses

[GizmoWhiskers]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
Amen, Preach it.

Now try and get ABnB tourists to receive it.

[golfing eagles]

Amen, Preach it.

Now try and get ABnB tourists to receive it.

Well, I have a solution for the Airbnb problem in general that would reduce about 80% of them. IF, and it is a big IF that has been repeated that Florida law prevents a locality from banning short term rentals, there is a back door solution completely within the control of TV---do not allow guest passes for Airbnb tenants. The appeal of a weekend stay in TV will decline dramatically.

[ThirdOfFive]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?
I think it extends further than that. IMO the kind of "golfer" who would neglect things like that, i.e. not respecting basic etiquette such as repairing ball marks, filling divots, etc. is the same kind of PERSON who thinks nothing of chucking a styrofoam cup out his car window, or passing a golf cart with his when a walker is in his lane and then barely swerving in on time so that the walker is not injured, or tossing one or more of those little fireball whiskey containers out of his cart so that he doesn't have to explain something uncomfortable to his wife once he gets home.

Believe it or not, I also saw a guy empty an ASHTRAY in his cart onto the MMP by Savannah Center. I rounded the turn behind him just as he finished scattering cigarette butts all over the path. He took off in a hurry. Maybe he at least had the grace to feel ashamed, but I doubt it.

If you're a courteous person on the golf course odds are that you are a courteous person in other aspects of your life as well. Unfortunately the opposite is probably also true.

[rickaslin]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?

Class of golfer has nothing to do with it!! We need to take pride in these courses weather t be Chanpionship or Executive, these are OUR courses and shoud take pride in keping nice. Fix a ball mark, fix a divot, pick-up broken tees and let other people know to do the same!!

[pendi99]

They will learn as soon as they learn to use turn signals when turning! Lazy is lazy!

[Mrfriendly]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

Consider the preciousness of others:

Philippians 2:3-4
“Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.” With everyone looking out for everyone else's interests more than their own, no one would be in need.

Besides regular life, this verse also applies to Golf life. 😇
So fix your damn ball mark and keep moving to the next hole!

[Wondering]

I grew up playing golf at 10 years old. My mentors taught me golf course etiquette. Many golfers in The Villages, started playing golf when they moved here and never bothered to learn the etiquette. Sad!

[Steve]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

But wouldn't that delay the complaining about the condition of the course? For some people that's half the fun of playing golf.

[Steve]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?

So you judge a person's character based on his wealth? I've played with a lot of "millionaires" whose philosophy is "I paid a lot of money to play here. They can rake their own bunkers. That's what I pay them for."

[Steve]

I totally agree with this. Why do we "require" villagers to watch a video and take a course before they can step on a pickleball court. But we do not require them to attend Good Golf class before they get golf privileges. It makes no sense.


I know a lot of people who play or have played pickleball. But I've never heard of one having to take a "required course".

[rustyp]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

As you stated LV was great after being shut down for months. From your past experience you predict in 3 weeks it will be back to shambles. The blame you put on the golfers - I don't disagree. However part of the problem maybe the amount of play being the most of any courses in the world and not enough down time to recuperate. You will never get 100% of golfers to take the responsibility to the level of your expectations. Simply too many. Ask yourself do all people drive the speed limit? Ironically speed limits are the law not etiquette.


Solution - RAISE THE RATES to decrease demand. The same philosophy as raising interest rates to combat inflation.

[tommyman]

I have noticed just in the last 2 weeks how the course conditions have deteriorated. Every green with multiple ball marks and/or repaired so poorly they affect a putt. Bunkers not raked, and rakes strewn to poor places to retrieve them. Divots not filled, etc. Part of this is attributable to more play, but everyone of these can be improved and totally fixed if everyone just cleans up after themselves. I am an old caddie and we were taught to leave the bunker better than we found it. I see people all the time walk out of a trap and drag the rake behind them. That is not raking the trap. Just look back and see if you even hit your foot prints. IMO the starters and even the folks that check players in at the pro shop could do a much better job of reinforcing these basic good golf practices by telling every single group, every single time that those are the rules of the course. I am also a big advocate for the 90 degree rule. If we all did that maybe the fairways would be playable for another 30 days into the winter. It takes no more time or energy, just requires a little attention to detail.

[Tomptomp]

Gee wiz. I played Palmer yesterday and the course was in great condition. I teed off at 8:50 and I didn’t see any of the issues to which you refer. The greens, aprons, fairways, and bunkers were perfect.

[tophcfa]

Age-old problem.

For once, size does not matter:
Handicap doesn't matter.
Investment portfolio doesn't matter.
Green fees don't matter.

It's a lack of pride, respect & responsibility.

Like other posts.............it's expensive, but the courses need to be policed (unfortunately).

There you have it, spot on Dewi.

[Two Bills]

Our local course in UK employs a sniper who is positioned in a high tower overlooking all of the course.
Anyone not repairing pitch marks, divots or not raking sand traps is shot
Only three have died over the last four years, funnily enough all were Americans, and all lived in The Villages!:duck:

[DonH57]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

Amen brother. I really agree with you especially the last paragraph. I've seen a lot of what you described at many of the executive courses. I've even seen a sand rake that had been ran over and thrown into the bushes by the guilty party. The ambassador was wondering why they were short a rake! The powers to be should have made the Good Golf Class mandatory before people are assigned a way to make tee time reservations but I don't know how much that would help. Some people have absolutely no respect for the amenities we all pay for and share.:ohdear:

[HORNET]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
Golfers ( Villagers) used to take pride in The Villages golf courses, used to fix their and other divots on the greens and fairways, now the attitude of new golfers on Championship and/or Executive Course, it’s all about them, let someone else do it.

[dtennent]

Since the starters know if you have paid your annual trail fees, why not charge 2 times the trail fee ( on executive courses) or 50% surcharge ( for championship courses) for those who haven’t attended good golf school? All of our play is tracked by a computer system and this would be a small add on. I would gladly reenroll in good golf school if it helped people to take better care of our courses. Heck, I would gladly have to attend every five years ( with everyone else, of course) if it improved the quality of our courses.

[mpcolonel]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
It’s the snow birds that come here and don’t care because they’ll leave in 4/6 months and won’t come back until they have the courses back in good shape. We that live here have to play thru there mess.

[BrianL99]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

I played LV to RG yesterday. I too was amazed at the number of un-repaired ball marks on the greens. I went off LV at 11:35. How many foursomes had been through there? 25? On Hole 1, I fixed 5 ball marks. It didn't improve after the 1st hole.

Considering yesterday was the 1st day it was opened after renovation, I was shocked by the abysmal quality of workmanship. I've been involved with golf course construction and renovation and the quality of the work done on Laurel Valley, should never have been accepted by the ownership.

I think the lack of professionalism by ownership, contributes to the lack of etiquette displayed by the golfers. If ownership doesn't care about quality, why should the players? I'm not saying I agree with that, just opining that's a contributing factor.

The renovation team laid about 3000 sq. ft. of new sod, to the left of the Tee Boxes on the 2nd hole. Looks great. When I got to the 3rd green, the green surrounds were atrocious. Why would they spend money for the "out of play" area next to the 2nd Tee box, yet not repair the area around the green on 3?

I was told that the 2nd green was "flattened". No way. That green is almost exactly the same as it was ... virtually unplayable.

The 5th green should have been flattened in the left rear ... no change.

I did Birdie 9 from the Blues, so I can't find anything to complain about, there.

I agree there's no excuse for not repairing ball marks and raking bunkers, but if ownership doesn't want to set an example, it's hard to enforce a policy of "do as I say, not as I do".

Riley Grove's greens are for the most part, awful. I'm no expert on Bermuda grass, but 4 or 5 holes looked like they have a fungus or disease. I could have lived with that, but when I got to the 7th hole and found there were 5 groups on the hole, I gave up and went home.

I haven't played Palmer since LV closed, as I don't like Cherry Hills. This was my first time back this year and I won't be back, unless I hear that conditions have dramatically changed.

On another note, as usually, Glenview is in excellent condition and TDS is in nearly private course condition. If you were to only consider the "playing areas" (leaving out areas around the paths & non-playing areas), TDS conditions were like you might expect at a moderately priced private club.

I've hear that OB is in great condition. It's a pretty weird golf course, but I might have to give it a try, considering conditions as most of the other courses.

[Yes, I know part of the issue, is GV, OB & TDS are under a different Water Withdrawal Permit and can use more water than the more southern courses.]

[kkingston57]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?

Even at real country clubs, 99% of the people fix ball marks, repair divots and rake traps. Was member of 3 before moving to TV. All 3 most members used the clubs carts and all had signs in them reminding people to rake traps, fix ball marks etc.

[kkingston57]

Agree, Good thread.
Everyone blames the deteriorating conditions on the maintenance, where really WE can keep the courses nice, especially in the high season

1) I think those playing championships have played more golf and should know better. You’re not paying $50 to play if you’re a beginner or not that good - youll play executive; and have more fun

2) The golfers aren’t even using the rakes, BUT the rakes that are out are 12”; a 20 or 24” rake is much easier to rake and you get a better finished product.

3) The best system that works is loss of golf privilege or loss of access to tee time system for a week or month. I don’t know how that can work here; but technology can help. Upgrade the ID system with RFID tags - or require tags on carts. Rangers don’t need to confront abusers, just be around and see when people don’t rake or fix divots - boom; shut down ID to reserve tee times for a week. Heck, shut down the whole 4 some and it will become self monitoring. Will fix itself in a month.

Regarding #2, TV is the 1st place that I have ever seen the 12" rakes and they do take a lot more time than the larger ones. For me they take 2-3x longer, since a person creates more footprints when using the smaller rake. With a bigger rake it is easier to walk out of the trap and drag the rake behind you to cover your foot prints. Very hard to do with the narrower rake. That being said, agree that some people still do not rake the traps, especially when they see that other earlier players did not rake them

[Two Bills]

It’s the snow birds that come here and don’t care because they’ll leave in 4/6 months and won’t come back until they have the courses back in good shape. We that live here have to play thru there mess.

BS.

[DonH57]

It’s the snow birds that come here and don’t care because they’ll leave in 4/6 months and won’t come back until they have the courses back in good shape. We that live here have to play thru there mess.

I don't feel it's all on the volume of golfers but it's really sad it got to the point it's just as hard to get a tee time as if it was January because of all the course closures come April. I try to avoid blaming the snowbirds but I'm sure they have their share of entitled ones!

[kkingston57]

Gee wiz. I played Palmer yesterday and the course was in great condition. I teed off at 8:50 and I didn’t see any of the issues to which you refer. The greens, aprons, fairways, and bunkers were perfect.

Very few golfers in front of you. Played in the PM at Glenview on 11-9 and saw 5-6 un repaired ball marks on every hole.

[kkingston57]

It’s the snow birds that come here and don’t care because they’ll leave in 4/6 months and won’t come back until they have the courses back in good shape. We that live here have to play thru there mess.

Un repaired ball marks, un raked traps do not only occur in the cooler months. They exist year round. In fact see less ball marks on the greens during the cool months since the greens are harder.

[rustyp]

A real country club membership costs mega dollars per year. Live life like a millionaire on a retirement budget. What class of golfer did you expect to be playing here ?

Even at real country clubs, 99% of the people fix ball marks, repair divots and rake traps. Was member of 3 before moving to TV. All 3 most members used the clubs carts and all had signs in them reminding people to rake traps, fix ball marks etc.

Looks like we are on the same wavelength here. If you belonged to a real CC you probably had $10K-$30K initiation investment and a requirement of $5K/year bar tab plus dues. I.E. substantial skin in the game. Not much skin in the game here in TV. Raise the rates - the courses will get less play, more recuperation time, affords higher quality of maintenance and more respect by those who do pay to play.

[BrianL99]

Gee wiz. I played Palmer yesterday and the course was in great condition. I teed off at 8:50 and I didn’t see any of the issues to which you refer. The greens, aprons, fairways, and bunkers were perfect.

I guess it's all a question of expectations.

On a scale of 1-10, "10" being Augusta National, I'd give Palmer about a 5.5-6.0 yesterday. Mallory is a 5 this week. Glenview and TDS about 7 for the playing areas.

IMO, TV Courses are generally in the condition of a decent Muni course in the real world.

[Dilligas]

Agree, I have always respected the courses I played on & so did the other golfers I played with & we were certainly not highly skilled. Do you think using the putter to retrieve the ball or trying to pop it out with the flag are due to arthritic knees? It is not something I had seen before. As to not raking a trap & so on, is that laziness? Ignorance? Entitlement seems a stretch, but maybe it is one of those three, depending on the golfer.
Don’t try to put lipstick on this pig! If you play golf, LEARN the rules, LEARN golf etiquette, leave the course, bunkers, and greens BETTER than what you found them. Not tough. If your knees or back prevent you from bending, get a suction cup or ball picker for the handle of your putter.

[Taltarzac725]

Why Are Golf Club Memberships So Expensive? (Top 10 Reasons) (https://www.golfcartreport.com/why-are-golf-club-memberships-so-expensive/)

Maybe they should hire some people to keep the greens looking good. And put them in some kind of armor so they do not get hit with balls while cleaning up after inconsiderate golfers.

They could advertise on the armor for local businesses.

[Lancer]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

Food for thought.

[edtherock]

As a homeowner whose backyard sits on the LV course I watched the past 8 months the hard work, and listened to all the dump trucks and heavy machinery and energy the renovation team performed to rip this course totally apart and put it back together better than before. Months before it opened they were already aerating fairways and greens and leveling greens. They were getting into the maintenance mode. It was eye awakening and interesting to watch and record the processes. I got to say hi to an ambassador group on day 1. On day 2 I went to say hello to a group of folks that had rental carts so I could tell they weren’t villagers. They had no idea it was the first real day the course was opened. They would have no skin in the game of taking care of a course they would not play again probably anytime soon. As one person said- it is about respect and of course maybe some forgetfulness. I won’t complain. I for one fix any divots that I see when on the greens and any other issues that I have time to fix. I don’t mind helping out where others fail. There are many ideas on how to fix this but it is probably not fixable because some people just don’t care. I see it when they drive on our property. Walk around the yard looking for their ball etc. trash in our yard etc. it would be nice if there were signs at the start, at every tee area etc. that’s simply say: leave the course the way you found it! Don’t leave any trace behind that you played this course. Fix yours and any other divots. Did you repair your divots? The sand does not rake itself- leave the course better than you found it. Etc. so put these signs at different places around the course. It is not expensive.. But maybe it makes people more aware and mindful. Maybe not. But if it gets 1 or 2 people to fix their behavior, then it was worth it.

- I would like to say the folks who do the maintenance on LV are the best. Hard working. Up early! Paying attention to detail cutting the t boxes cutting the greens , drying the t boxes and greens, and keeping the cart paths clear and clean. Chemical application etc. Keep up the great job!

[JMintzer]

It’s the snow birds that come here and don’t care because they’ll leave in 4/6 months and won’t come back until they have the courses back in good shape. We that live here have to play thru there mess.

Horsehockey...

I fix as many ball marks and see just as many un-raked traps in the summer as I do in the winter...

[tophcfa]

It would be nice if there were signs at the start, at every tee area etc. that’s simply say: leave the course the way you found it! Don’t leave any trace behind that you played this course.

That would be great, but the signs shouldn’t be necessary. Simple common courtesy and respect shouldn’t need to be requested through signage. As my wonderful scuba instructor said, leave only bubbles and take only pictures.

[asianthree]

Looks like we are on the same wavelength here. If you belonged to a real CC you probably had $10K-$30K initiation investment and a requirement of $5K/year bar tab plus dues. I.E. substantial skin in the game. Not much skin in the game here in TV. Raise the rates - the courses will get less play, more recuperation time, affords higher quality of maintenance and more respect by those who do pay to play.

Buy in at Oakland Hills was $250,000 with a 3 year wait list. Mandatory restaurant monthly dues $500, plus golf guest were $150 for 18, plus caddy fees. Females only allowed to play certain days.

Then the club house burned down, a new President will be taking over. Buy in will probably be the same, restaurant dues could be higher. When build is completed in 2 plus years.

All ball marks are repaired, and every trap is raked, of course that’s what the caddy does for you. Maybe TV could hire someone to rake and fix ball-marks, fee added to each tee time. That might wake up some.:popcorn:

[merrymini]

I live on a championship golf course and have grown to hate golfers, which is sad. The bad ones set the tone, breaking my windows, golfing off my lawn, coming on my property to get their ball, digging through my shrubs, being obnoxious. You can contact the golf course but I do not see anything changing. People simply do not care. There is no more rule of law in our culture and no morality in our way of life. I am seeing people taking things into their own hands which is disastrous.

[Janie123]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
the only comment is the “raggedy” cups. that is not always caused by the retrieval of a ball… In FL, the old style Bermuda grass has lots of grain and when the grass is cut, the down grain side of the cup is pulled ever so slightly and you see ragged edges. Use this to your advantage as the ball will break more towards that ragged edge. the new greens like at RG and LV will not show that ragged edge.

I learned this from a YouTube video Bryson D put out on putting… watch at 5 min mark

https://youtu.be/uiR3KVG0SQU?si=Gaf-8LeOX82plAkn

[Eclas]

Wouldn't object to that either. It just seemed it might be difficult to tell Rory Mcilroy he can't play here with John Rahm, Scottie Sheffler and Victor Hovland until they all attend Good Golf School. And would Patrick Reed have held the course record at Havana if he had to go to school first? (Well, in his case, maybe golf rules school :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:)

Then you get into the problem of guests---how do they qualify to play? My ex brother in law is head pro at a club in Mass.---he came down several times to play--did he need to go to school? And here's another Villages quirk----they only "comp" a visiting PGA pro once a year, after that, full price. I sure hope if Tiger decides he wants to come here often that he brings his wallet. Talk about cheaping out!

So it is a complicated issue. Like my father always aid, "You can't legislate morality"--or in this case golf etiquette.

Easy to handle that. PGA players can be exempt and as for guests they would be playing with a member that'd keep them educated on course etiquette so they didn't lose privileges.

[Two Bills]

I would also hazard a guess that at least 50% of golfers do not know how to repair a pitch mark correctly.
Judging by some of the 'excavations' perpetrated in the name of repair I have witnessed, leaving the marks is a better option, and causes less damage.

[edtherock]

An observation from today on Laurel Valley. Have watched quite a few locals come by this morning- not rented carts- come through. And while they aren’t really doing anything wrong it just shows the mentality. The T box is literally 5 to 10 feet from the concrete cart path. Do they park their carts on the path? No. They park right next to the T box on the grass so they can walk 2 feet instead. Again it doesn’t really affect the play but it shows the mentality of taking every short cut possible which probably includes not fixing divots or sand traps. Oh well. So sad. Respect the course It is so simple 😢😢😢

[JTW]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
Totally agree! The folks who don’t take responsibility for proper golf etiquette will be the first to criticize the condition of the courses! They always have and always will.

[golfer74]

Remember, these are public golf courses. Anyone from the outside can play our courses. Therefore, how do you monitor their golf behavior on a course. Should outsiders be required to go to a golf school?

[tophcfa]

Remember, these are public golf courses. Anyone from the outside can play our courses. Therefore, how do you monitor their golf behavior on a course. Should outsiders be required to go to a golf school?

The tiered pricing and golfing conditions makes the value of golfing in the Villages a poor relative value for non guest outsiders given the alternatives. The majority of the golfing in the Villages is done by residents, who get less expensive green fees and enjoy the benefit of loading up their own golf cart in their garage and taking it to/from the course. Outsiders are not the root cause of the problem being discussed in this thread, it’s lazy and inconsiderate Villagers.

[dewilson58]

Remember, these are public golf courses. Anyone from the outside can play our courses. Therefore, how do you monitor their golf behavior on a course. Should outsiders be required to go to a golf school?

Outsiders ain't the problem.

:oops:

(nice first post on second sign-on)

[BrianL99]

Outsiders ain't the problem.

:oops:

(nice first post on second sign-on)

About 250 rounds on TV Championship Courses in the last 2.5 years. Almost all, booked as a single.

I've yet to play with an "outsider". All residents, guests of residents or long-term renters.

[shut the front door]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

I think you mistakenly posted this on TOTV. Didn't you know that everyone on this board rakes, fills and repairs? They also drive perfectly in a roundabout, never let their dog pee on someone else's lawn, stop at every stop sign, never drink and drive and tip everyone they run across $50 at Christmas. Did I miss anything?

[BrianL99]

I think you mistakenly posted this on TOTV. Didn't you know that everyone on this board rakes, fills and repairs? They also drive perfectly in a roundabout, never let their dog pee on someone else's lawn, stop at every stop sign, never drink and drive and tip everyone they run across $50 at Christmas. Did I miss anything?

Yes.

They don't let their dog poop on someone else's grass.

[junction29]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.

Does anyone know the telephone number or email of Rickey Craig, the guy in charge of all our golf courses?

[dewilson58]

Pleasantly surprised what great shape Glenview green are this week.

:BigApplause:

[barnacle44]

Played Palmer Cherry to Laurel yesterday, the first day LV was open after months of renovation. Conditions were great, fairways had decent grass, greens were running about 10-10 1/2, bunkers were great. However, turned to LV at 11:20 and noticed the following:

15+ unrepaired ball marks on each green
Dozens of divots not filled in
Half the bunkers with unraked footprints
The edges of the cups were raggedy.

At most 22 foursomes came before us

So, unfortunately, I'll give it 3 weeks, maybe less, before the conditions deteriorate to the level of the rest of our courses.

So the question is: When will our golfers learn that taking care of the course is everyone's responsibility, that there is no "entitled" superclass that need not rake, fill or repair. And stop sticking your putter in the hole to retrieve the ball or yanking the flagstick out with the ball in the cup. I wish we had cameras on every hole and institute a system of fines or revocation of golfing privileges for the offenders.
During Covid there were devices to raise the ball from the bottom of the cup which reduced cup damage. At my Summer course there are plastic baskets attached to the poles which take the ball out when the pole is lifted.
My girlfriend gets annoyed at me when I stop to repair too many ball marks on the greens because there are so many it really slows me down. Many of the marks are in locations that only proficient golfers would make so it is not just the learners doing the damage.