Oren Miller

[Normal]

What is the hold up with getting our ELECTED commissioner back to doing the peoples’s work? Commissioner Miller was elected to do a job. We certainly don’t need the governor putting someone in none of us chose. No disrespect intended towards the two, just want democracy not communism.

https://www.**************.com/2023/11/15/villager-contends-vindicated-commissioner-deserves-to-be-reinstated/

[tophcfa]

The poor guy is the poster child selected to put everyone on notice of what will happen to them if they cross the entity that controls Sumter County on an issue that is deemed important. After the horror he has been dragged through, he would be crazy to want to go back to trying to represent “the people”.

[rustyp]

What is the hold up with getting our ELECTED commissioner back to doing the peoples’s work? Commissioner Miller was elected to do a job. We certainly don’t need the governor putting someone in none of us chose. No disrespect intended towards the two, just want democracy not communism.

https://www.**************.com/2023/11/15/villager-contends-vindicated-commissioner-deserves-to-be-reinstated/

Doesn't someone have to step down for that to happen ?

[dewilson58]

Isn't there still an open case about the Sunset law violations??

[dewilson58]

Three hours for a thread to last about a convicted felon politician ............ that's doing very well.

:MOJE_whot:

[Bill14564]

Three hours for a thread to last about a convicted felon politician ............ that's doing very well.

:MOJE_whot:

Doesn’t overturned and exonerated mean it was determined he was wrongfully convicted and never should have been convicted?

[dewilson58]

Doesn’t overturned and exonerated mean it was determined he was wrongfully convicted and never should have been convicted?

but he WAS convicted.............which is all my statement indicates.
:coolsmiley:

[alwann]

Isn't there still an open case about the Sunset law violations??

Not wanting to get into a peeing contest, Mr. Sage, and I'm not a lawyer. (Perhaps you are.) But if the conviction was overturned and the man in question was exonerated, is it fair to call him a convicted felon?

[dewilson58]

Not wanting to get into a peeing contest, Mr. Sage, and I'm not a lawyer. (Perhaps you are.) But if the conviction was overturned and the man in question was exonerated, is it fair to call him a convicted felon?

:wave:

[Bill14564]

but he WAS convicted.............which is all my statement indicates.
:coolsmiley:

Oh, okay. Then it makes sense for me to refer to the two year olds who are posting on the forum.

And really, I didn’t (still don’t) clearly see the past tense in your comment.

[BrianL99]

Doesn't someone have to step down for that to happen ?

Having read most of the testimony & text messages, as well as the original conviction, I was shocked by the recent exoneration. You can never tell what a court might do.

All that said, it presents an interesting situation. Obviously, the electorate has been deprived of representation by their duly elected Commissioner since Miller was ousted. The fact that Miller was eventually exonerated, will never erase the stigma that's now attached to him, even if he decides to run again.

Allowing politics to influence the Judicial system is a dangerous road and clearly what happened in this situation.

Congratulations to Mr. Miller for toughing it out and coming out a winner.

(& at least according to what I read, he's been exonerated ... which would mean he's no longer a "convicted felon".)

[dewilson58]

Oh, okay. Then it makes sense for me to refer to the two year olds who are posting on the forum.

And really, I didn’t (still don’t) clearly see the past tense in your comment.

My post:
Three hours for a thread to last about a convicted felon politician

Dictionary:
verb
the simple past tense and past participle of convict.

Hope that helps you.


:beer3:

[Dond1959]

Let’s put aside that both Miller and Search violated the Sunshine Law numerous times AFTER they were told not to discuss county business in private. Both Search and Miller were terrible commissioners. Remember, they were still on the BOCC when the independent commission recommended that VPSD and Sumter Fire be combined. If not for the public outrage there would be no VPSD.

Instead of negotiating with the developer on Road Impact fees they just went ahead and crammed down huge increases for small businesses that would of stagnated small business growth here (see Don Wiley / Goldwingnut video about how much that would have cost small businesses outside of the developer). UF was so unnerved by the move they moved their planned hospital from Sumter to Lake county. Luckily the legislature stepped in to reverse the move.

Finally there was an election last year and Millers seat was filled. So if he wants to run again he can do so in 24. Why anyone would want him on the BOCC is beyond me, but hey he can try if he wants.

[Normal]

Doesn't someone have to step down for that to happen ?

No, the only thing that would be in question would be any pertinent votes his substitute voted on. He was suspended from his post wrongly. Suspended isn’t permanent. Will all the substitute’s votes stand?

[charlie1]

What is the hold up with getting our ELECTED commissioner back to doing the peoples’s work? Commissioner Miller was elected to do a job. We certainly don’t need the governor putting someone in none of us chose. No disrespect intended towards the two, just want democracy not communism.

https://www.**************.com/2023/11/15/villager-contends-vindicated-commissioner-deserves-to-be-reinstated/

The people in office were ALL elected in the last election so they are chosen by us. I would suggest if Miller is still interested in being a commissioner, he should run in the next election. It's not that far away and people are already filing their paperwork!

[rustyp]

:wave:

Does a quite little meme count as exoneration ?

[tophcfa]

but he WAS convicted.............which is all my statement indicates.
:coolsmiley:

Hmmmm, guilty (aka pull strings to falsely accuse and wrongfully convict) until proven innocent is never a good thing. This is a rare instance where I agree with the Bill & Brian show and find Dewi to be totally off base. Arguing the definition and tense of the word convicted doesn’t do justice to the fact that an innocent man was dredged through hell and back.

[Rainger99]

I didn’t see this story in the Daily Sun. Did I miss it?

[tophcfa]

I didn’t see this story in the Daily Sun. Did I miss it?

You should see it, along with an apology for defamation of character, but don’t hold your breath.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Someone who is exonerated no longer fits into the category of "felon" - convicted or otherwise. Exoneration means a retcon. It's treated as though the charge never happened. No charge = no conviction = no felony.

Mr. Miller is not a convicted felon.

[Taltarzac725]

You should see it, along with an apology for defamation of character, but don’t hold your breath.

It was on the Daily Sun front page a few days ago.

The whole thing seemed like making a mountain out of a molehill. And with a complete disregard for equity. Like something out of a Charles Dickins' novel. Or, maybe, even Franz Kafka.

[blueash]

You can read DeSantis's order suspending, not removing, Miller from office justified by the Florida constitution giving him the option, not the requirement, to suspend an official with a felony indictment

DeSantis Order (https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/SLG-BIZHUB22010614210.pdf)

The citation in the Florida Constitution is Article 4 section 7(a) you can read that section

ARTICLE 4
a) By executive order stating the grounds and filed with the custodian of state records, the governor may suspend from office any state officer not subject to impeachment, any officer of the militia not in the active service of the United States, or any county officer, for malfeasance, misfeasance, neglect of duty, drunkenness, incompetence, permanent inability to perform official duties, or commission of a felony, and may fill the office by appointment for the period of suspension.  The suspended officer may at any time before removal be reinstated by the governor.

(b) The senate may, in proceedings prescribed by law, remove from office or reinstate the suspended official and for such purpose the senate may be convened in special session by its president or by a majority of its membership.

(c) By order of the governor any elected municipal officer indicted for crime may be suspended from office until acquitted and the office filled by appointment for the period of suspension, not to extend beyond the term, unless these powers are vested elsewhere by law or the municipal charter.

Note that very clearly the Constitution anticipates that a suspended official can be re-instated. And look at section (c) which I will repeat with BOLD

suspended from office until acquitted and the office filled by appointment for the period of suspension, not to extend beyond the term,
'

Now I am not a lawyer but my reading is that Miller was suspended because he was indicted. And that once acquitted that suspension should terminate not subject to the whim of the Governor.

So next question is what is the term of Oren Miller's election. That's easy he was elected to a four year term in November 2020 and took office in Nov 2020. So Miller's term is not over. Yes, he was replaced but that seems null and void now as he is clearly by our Constitution given his seat back now that he is acquitted.

[Rainger99]

It was on the Daily Sun front page a few days ago.

The whole thing seemed like making a mountain out of a molehill. And with a complete disregard for equity. Like something out of a Charles Dickins' novel. Or, maybe, even Franz Kafka.

I looked at their website under Sumter politics. It has five articles talking about the trial and the conviction. Not a word about the appellate decision.

[BrianL99]

I looked at their website under Sumter politics. It has five articles talking about the trial and the conviction. Not a word about the appellate decision.

https://www.**************.com/2023/11/09/former-commissioner-oren-millers-perjury-conviction-overturned/

I can't find a word in the Daily Sun about Miller winning on Appeal. I searched pretty thoroughly.

I did find this and now I'm curious:

Ethics Commission: Miller didn’t properly disclose his donors | In Today's Daily Sun | The Villages Daily Sun | thevillagesdailysun.com (https://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/news/in_todays_daily_sun/ethics-commission-miller-didn-t-properly-disclose-his-donors/article_ab466018-50fb-11ed-89fb-ab3315e6d814.html)

If I'm not mistaken (& the Sun mentions it), most if not all of funds, were raised after he was removed from his position. If he was no longer an elected official, how did his actions violate the Ethic Regulations for elected officials?

[Taltarzac725]

https://www.**************.com/2023/11/09/former-commissioner-oren-millers-perjury-conviction-overturned/

I can't find a word in the Daily Sun about Miller winning on Appeal. I searched pretty thoroughly.

I did find this and now I'm curious:

Ethics Commission: Miller didn’t properly disclose his donors | In Today's Daily Sun | The Villages Daily Sun | thevillagesdailysun.com (https://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/news/in_todays_daily_sun/ethics-commission-miller-didn-t-properly-disclose-his-donors/article_ab466018-50fb-11ed-89fb-ab3315e6d814.html)

If I'm not mistaken (& the Sun mentions it), most if not all of funds, were raised after he was removed from his position. If he was no longer an elected official, how did his actions violate the Ethic Regulations for elected officials?

I could not find anything either online for both their website and what they have up on their Facebook page. Lots of old stuff though.

[bimmertl]

Sham Conviction Overturned for Villages Politician Railroaded by Ron DeSantis (https://theintercept.com/2023/11/09/oren-miller-villages-ron-desantis/)

[DrMack]

This poor guy

[Rainger99]

This is a copy of the decision reversing the conviction.

https://supremecourt.flcourts.gov/content/download/978168/opinion/Opinion_23-0846.pdf%0A

[MandoMan]

What is the hold up with getting our ELECTED commissioner back to doing the peoples’s work? Commissioner Miller was elected to do a job. We certainly don’t need the governor putting someone in none of us chose. No disrespect intended towards the two, just want democracy not communism.

https://www.**************.com/2023/11/15/villager-contends-vindicated-commissioner-deserves-to-be-reinstated/

Why is it that Oren Miller was removed from office but George Santos, who seems to have done all sorts of illegal things, has not been?

[defrey12]

Doesn’t overturned and exonerated mean it was determined he was wrongfully convicted and never should have been convicted?

Last I checked…

[defrey12]

Not wanting to get into a peeing contest, Mr. Sage, and I'm not a lawyer. (Perhaps you are.) But if the conviction was overturned and the man in question was exonerated, is it fair to call him a convicted felon?

No, he has no record of conviction.

[PhilG]

Mr. Miller lied under oath. The appeals court found his lie did not constitute perjury due to the "correction" of his lie when confronted with the facts.

[LuvNH]

Can Mr. Miller now sue the State of Florida for wrongful conviction?

[dewilson58]

Can Mr. Miller now sue the State of Florida for wrongful conviction?

From a law firm website:

Those who are eligible can collect $50,000 per year of wrongful incarceration, up to a maximum of $2 million dollars. However, compensation is rare because the bar for eligibility is set very high. Many people in prison for decades in Florida have been exonerated based on newly available evidence, such as DNA testing.

[GizmoWhiskers]

Not wanting to get into a peeing contest, Mr. Sage, and I'm not a lawyer. (Perhaps you are.) But if the conviction was overturned and the man in question was exonerated, is it fair to call him a convicted felon?
No... thats the whole point. Put through hell then found not guilty after all. Witch hunt comes to mind...

[Rzepecki]

Isn't there still an open case about the Sunset law violations??

Sunshine

[Bridget Staunton]

Oren is a true American and we the people voted him in until DeSantis was asked by a political contributor in TV to get involved. Unfortunately that is the result of large campaign contributions. Oren you are the best and did not deserve what happened to you

[Andyb]

Seriously? His partner admitted his guilt. His values are not in line with most Villagers.

[Iowatransplant]

The UF hospital move a short distance to be in Lake County is a moot point. IF it ever actually gets built, as a non - profit entity they will apply for and get property tax exemption. So no real loss to Sumter county in terms of tax dollars and a gain for Sumter county in terms of less services needed to be provided long term. The short term loss would be the impact fees for construction, but they don’t cover all of the actual costs so now Lake County can cover that too!

[Normal]

Seriously? His partner admitted his guilt. His values are not in line with most Villagers.

Is that where most Villagers like higher taxes so The Developer can rake it in while skipping impact fees?

2,500 a home verses the rest of the state’s developer’s paying 25,000 dollars per home? All because we love taxes!

[Altavia]

Mr. Miller lied under oath. The appeals court found his lie did not constitute perjury due to the "correction" of his lie when confronted with the facts.

Did he lie or did he fall to correct a prosecutor’s lie?

"He then drilled down on the prosecutor’s implicit claim, that an investigator can lie to a suspect, and if the suspect doesn’t correct them, they’re guilty of perjury, even if they’ve made contrary claims elsewhere in the interview. “Can a failure to correct — what you just described, he should have corrected … can the failure to correct then form in part or in whole a basis for perjury?” Sound asked. "

[Bill14564]

Seriously? His partner admitted his guilt. His values are not in line with most Villagers.

From what I have read on these boards, most Villagers cannot agree on what values are in line with most Villagers.

[kaniess]

Miller still violated the campaign finance laws and gift laws. He paid fines for each of these transgressions which were not overturned by the court.

[charlie1]

Seriously? His partner admitted his guilt. His values are not in line with most Villagers.

I thought there were two different cases! One was the sunshine law which his partner admitted guilt. I have not seen the status of this case so may still be an open issue. What he was convicted of was "lying under oath". He was exonerated by a panel of judges due to the fact that he did later tell the truth. The perjury case, I believe, had nothing to do with his "partner" admitting guilt or the Sunshine Law case.

[Bill14564]

I thought there were two different cases! One was the sunshine law which his partner admitted guilt. I have not seen the status of this case so may still be an open issue. What he was convicted of was "lying under oath". He was exonerated by a panel of judges due to the fact that he did later tell the truth. The perjury case, I believe, had nothing to do with his "partner" admitting guilt or the Sunshine Law case.

The perjury charge was due to denying that conversations occurred that violated the sunshine laws. Both said no conversations occurred, both were arrested for perjury based on those denials, Search took a plea deal that granted him immunity and expungement of the perjury charge.

[Rainger99]

After this incident, is there anyone who would want to run for office in Sumter County as an outsider?

[airstreamingypsy]

My post:
Three hours for a thread to last about a convicted felon politician

Dictionary:
verb
the simple past tense and past participle of convict.

Hope that helps you.


:beer3:

You're embarrassing yourself, at this point you should stop digging.

[airstreamingypsy]

I thought there were two different cases! One was the sunshine law which his partner admitted guilt. I have not seen the status of this case so may still be an open issue. What he was convicted of was "lying under oath". He was exonerated by a panel of judges due to the fact that he did later tell the truth. The perjury case, I believe, had nothing to do with his "partner" admitting guilt or the Sunshine Law case.

His partner admitted guilt because his wife was sick and he didn't have the time or resources to fight in court....... so he took the path of least resistance.

[Jo-Ski]

Think so.

[dewilson58]

You're embarrassing yourself, at this point you should stop digging.

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[shortstack]

Not wanting to get into a peeing contest, Mr. Sage, and I'm not a lawyer. (Perhaps you are.) But if the conviction was overturned and the man in question was exonerated, is it fair to call him a convicted felon?

Very well said Al W. I think some people say things just to push buttons. I think that Mr Sage is not up to date about Mr Millers case.

[Dlbonivich]

There has been another election since the appointment of Don Wiley He won his seat

[Steve]

Three hours for a thread to last about a convicted felon politician ............ that's doing very well.

:MOJE_whot:

Conviction overturned=wrongly convicted=not guilty. Give him back his job...if he wants it.

[JGibson]

It's sad and scary what has happened to our judicial system.

He is probably wiped out financially trying to defend himself and will be traumatized the rest of his life.

[Steve]

but he WAS convicted.............which is all my statement indicates.
:coolsmiley:

The key word is "WAS". He isn't anymore.

[Roger Gallery]

Let’s put aside that both Miller and Search violated the Sunshine Law numerous times AFTER they were told not to discuss county business in private. Both Search and Miller were terrible commissioners. Remember, they were still on the BOCC when the independent commission recommended that VPSD and Sumter Fire be combined. If not for the public outrage there would be no VPSD.

Instead of negotiating with the developer on Road Impact fees they just went ahead and crammed down huge increases for small businesses that would of stagnated small business growth here (see Don Wiley / Goldwingnut video about how much that would have cost small businesses outside of the developer). UF was so unnerved by the move they moved their planned hospital from Sumter to Lake county. Luckily the legislature stepped in to reverse the move.

Finally there was an election last year and Millers seat was filled. So if he wants to run again he can do so in 24. Why anyone would want him on the BOCC is beyond me, but hey he can try if he wants.

Good post and puts it into another perspective, I those two had a very expensive learning experience. Welcome to Florida politics; at least they didn't steal any money.

[justjim]

Regardless of your opinions my point is why is State Government meddling in local politics in the first place. Many of us came to Florida from another State where State Government (specifically the Governor) does not have the power, nor the inclination, to meddle in local politics and issues. From my experience, removal of a county Commissioner or other duly elected officials is left to local government officials. But In Florida, it appears to be different. This happens not only in Sumter county but also in other counties in the State of Florida even before a local elected official has the opportunity for due process. This borders on an authoritarian State government IMHO.

[lawgolfer]

This poor guy

Anyone posting on this topic should first read the Court's opinion.

The prosecutor focused on two statements Miller made in response to leading questions asked by the investigators. At the time, the investigators had Miller's phone records and knew that he had made phone calls to Search. While Miller answered in the negative to the leading questions, in other answers, he admitted to making phone calls in the time frame about which he was asked, but was uncertain, if not evasive, as to the dates or the topics.

In many jurisdictions, when the investigators already know a fact, such as the phone records they had at the time of the interview, Miller's answers would not be material and not prosecutable. However, as the Court explains in a footnote, Florida law is different. You can easily read into the fact that the court even discussed the issue of "materiality", that the Justices were not happy at the conduct of the investigators and recognized that they were working to get Miller to commit perjury and not to discover the true facts.

Not being able to reverse the conviction on the issue of "materiality", the Court examined Miller's false statements in the "entire context" of his many answers. Doing so, they ruled that the many contradictory answers, taken as a whole and not individually, were insufficient to support a conviction for perjury.

As a practicing attorney for 40 years who was both a Federal and State prosecutor, I fully agree with the Court's opinion. In a criminal investigation, the goal of an investigator should be to determine if a crime was committed and not to cause a crime, perjury, to be committed. Unfortunately, the latter has become a dominant tactic of many investigators and prosecutors. In simple terms, it is: " I don't know that we can build a strong enough case against him. Instead, let's see if we can get him to lie". Frankly, this is not the way our investigators and prosecutors should go about their business.

I am not for or against Miller and Search. In this case, the investigators should have had the phone records before them at the time of the interview; shown them to Miller; asked him if he made the phone calls; and, then, asked what was discussed in those calls. If Miller was evasive or, foolishly, denied making the many calls, he would have been convicted at trial for a violation of the "Sunshine" laws with near-certainty.

[Taltarzac725]

Anyone posting on this topic should first read the Court's opinion.

The prosecutor focused on two statements Miller made in response to leading questions asked by the investigators. At the time, the investigators had Miller's phone records and knew that he had made phone calls to Search. While Miller answered in the negative to the leading questions, in other answers, he admitted to making phone calls in the time frame about which he was asked, but was uncertain, if not evasive, as to the dates or the topics.

In many jurisdictions, when the investigators already know a fact, such as the phone records they had at the time of the interview, Miller's answers would not be material and not prosecutable. However, as the Court explains in a footnote, Florida law is different. You can easily read into the fact that the court even discussed the issue of "materiality", that the Justices were not happy at the conduct of the investigators and recognized that they were working to get Miller to commit perjury and not to discover the true facts.

Not being able to reverse the conviction on the issue of "materiality", the Court examined Miller's false statements in the "entire context" of his many answers. Doing so, they ruled that the many contradictory answers, taken as a whole and not individually, were insufficient to support a conviction for perjury.

As a practicing attorney for 40 years who was both a Federal and State prosecutor, I fully agree with the Court's opinion. In a criminal investigation, the goal of an investigator should be to determine if a crime was committed and not to cause a crime, perjury, to be committed. Unfortunately, the latter has become a dominant tactic of many investigators and prosecutors. In simple terms, it is: " I don't know that we can build a strong enough case against him. Instead, let's see if we can get him to lie". Frankly, this is not the way our investigators and prosecutors should go about their business.

I am not for or against Miller and Search. In this case, the investigators should have had the phone records before them at the time of the interview; shown them to Miller; asked him if he made the phone calls; and, then, asked what was discussed in those calls. If Miller was evasive or, foolishly, denied making the many calls, he would have been convicted at trial for a violation of the "Sunshine" laws with near-certainty.

He seemed to get a raw deal. That does not sound like why the Sunshine Law was written with how the authorities used it in the Oren Miller case.

[Normal]

He seemed to get a raw deal. That does not sound like why the Sunshine Law was written with how the authorities used it in the Oren Miller case.

Spirit and intent is all important when interpreting law. Sometimes it gets lost in the courtroom just like objectivity in the news.

[lawgolfer]

I should have mentioned that Miller had a third option if confronted with the telephone records, that of "taking the 5th".

Interviewers love to use the tactic of "just having a simple discussion" with a "target' on whom, like Miller, they have evidence in hand of a crime having been committed.

I'm all for catching and prosecuting anyone who violates the law. At the same time, I deplore the modern approach of investigators actively working to have a "target" commit perjury.

I'll add some real fuel to this fire. All Trump supporters should remember the shameful way the FBI treated General Michael Flynn, which is the same tactic used by the Florida investigators on Miller. Again, I'm neither for or against Trump. I'm merely pointing out that this tactic is being misused all too often.

[Bogie Shooter]

I should have mentioned that Miller had a third option if confronted with the telephone records, that of "taking the 5th".

Interviewers love to use the tactic of "just having a simple discussion" with a "target' on whom, like Miller, they have evidence in hand of a crime having been committed.

I'm all for catching and prosecuting anyone who violates the law. At the same time, I deplore the modern approach of investigators actively working to have a "target" commit perjury.

I'll add some real fuel to this fire. All Trump supporters should remember the shameful way the FBI treated General Michael Flynn, which is the same tactic used by the Florida investigators on Miller. Again, I'm neither for or against Trump. I'm merely pointing out that this tactic is being misused all too often.

Why specifically these people?

[justjim]

Seriously? His partner admitted his guilt. His values are not in line with most Villagers.

As I remember, Mr. Search (his partner) agreed to testify but did not admit to doing anything wrong.

[jimbomaybe]

He seemed to get a raw deal. That does not sound like why the Sunshine Law was written with how the authorities used it in the Oren Miller case.
It casts "Sunshine" on how laws are used when the wrong entities are displeased !

[Pairadocs]

The poor guy is the poster child selected to put everyone on notice of what will happen to them if they cross the entity that controls Sumter County on an issue that is deemed important. After the horror he has been dragged through, he would be crazy to want to go back to trying to represent “the people”.

I have the feeling you are correct and in the MUCH broader topic of our whole political system. People of honor, ethics, and sincere desire to sacrifice for others (think of our forefathers who gave up lucrative careers, and suffered financially because in their absence doing the people's business, forming a constitution to free us once and for all, their families could not plant and harvest sufficient crops as they had previously done. They (the first politicians) had no private jets, they had to take their own horses (a further blow to those they left at home on the farm), they had no "hotel" allowance, no private chef and dining room for politicians, no gyms, hair salons, drivers, etc. WE, the people, from that point on decided there was no limit to what we bestowed on our own new royalty, and even today we keep adding "perks", more retirement, the best of the best medical care, luxury travel abroad in the best hotels on "junkets" to encourage trade, and so on. And then there is the whole system of lobbyist dollars. And yet, so many of us are puzzled that the available "pool" of true statesmen, true leaders, is such a filthy cesspool with little for us to choose from ? When you look over the whole panorama, local, state, to nation, judges, representative, commissioners and mayors, do we really propose only the best of the best, those with unbending integrity, true devotion to others rather and self ?

[KJ1325]

I'm guessing nobody's going to be removed from office allowing Mr Miller to replace them. Most likely what's going to happen is Mr Miller is going to end up with several million dollars in his pocket of taxpayer dollars to just go away. It'll be hush hush under the table and Mr Miller will get the last laugh.

[Bogie Shooter]

I'm guessing nobody's going to be removed from office allowing Mr Miller to replace them. Most likely what's going to happen is Mr Miller is going to end up with several million dollars in his pocket of taxpayer dollars to just go away. It'll be hush hush under the table and Mr Miller will get the last laugh.

:what::what::what:
What are you smoking?

[angiefox10]

I will respond to most of the comments. So many of them are so far off based I just shake my head.

Oren went before the Ethics Commissioner because he thought the case was going to be dismissed as they didn't have any evidence of wrongdoing, therefore he didn't cash in the GoFundMe funds. Since the money was not in his possession, he did not consider it his money. In fact, the rules are that money is not considered his until he takes it. Darrell Chandler reported him, an employ of T & D. When it was reported, they asked him to also report all funds by individuals over $100. The problem was he missed one person because that person gave him the money in small increments. (that is the money that wasn't reported) The commission immediately stated he was on perjury charges in Marion County; therefore, he was a liar. He was charged $3,000 for this. His attorney said he could fight it, but then it would have been more attorney's fees. Keep in mind, he wouldn't have had to have to GoFundMe if it hadn't had been for the "conduit" complaint that SHOULD have gone to the ethics commission as well. However, it went to the State Attorney.

Next....

Three people filed an ethics complaint about me being a conduit between Gary and Oren. This complaint completely bypassed the ethics commission and went straight to the State Attorney. And this complaint went straight to Gladson. That's a lot of power for an ethics complaint about me being a conduit. They sent letters to them that they wanted to interview them. Oren called them several times asking when they wanted to speak to him, and they said they would let him know. They sent out a subpoena. WTH?

He went into the interview thinking they were asking about me talking to him and Gary. He was aware they had the phone records. He told them they rode together once a month to a board they were on. They talked. He wouldn't remember what they talked about, (do you remember your conversations?) They had nothing on the ethics complaint because why would I be a conduit if they were talking to each other and why would they be talking to each other if I was a conduit?

Gary took a plea deal. Oren was offered a plea deal and refused to take it. He didn't do anything wrong, and he wasn't going to say he did when he didn't.

Gary was disposed and testified that they did not talk about business on the phone. They disposed several of the investigators that were in the room, they testified that Oren did not perjure himself. The judge did not allow that testimony in court. Said it was hearsay.

The state had to change their tactics. So, now they said he lied about when the phone calls ended.

Someone goes to jail for 75 days, 100 hours of community service at the dump, and 3 years of probation, all because they couldn't remember when phone calls stopped. He never said there weren't any phone calls. Even though the Daily Sun said he denied the phone calls.

Gary testified that they did not talk about business on the phone. That was supposed to be what the case was about. He was the only one who would know, and he said they did not.

There are no charges or investigations pending. Just a lot of misinformation.

That is all I have to say about that. Haters are going to hate no matter what. As to his reputation. People are treating him very well. Most people know what this was all about and welcome Oren with open arms.

I for one hate that he went through that. He is a hero in my book. He stood for right even with the Daily Sun writing hateful untruths about him every day.

We have not been able to talk about it for a year. Now you know.

[angiefox10]

There is this.

Revolt in The Villages Ended With a 72-Year-Old Political Prisoner (https://theintercept.com/2023/02/05/ron-desantis-florida-villages-oren-miller/?fbclid=IwAR1n-z8G80G2fMWZWX3I2tQyT-_hz27yNwo03FL6NYt9qZKLz5q03ut5yHU)

[Rainger99]

I'm guessing nobody's going to be removed from office allowing Mr Miller to replace them. Most likely what's going to happen is Mr Miller is going to end up with several million dollars in his pocket of taxpayer dollars to just go away. It'll be hush hush under the table and Mr Miller will get the last laugh.

If there is a lawsuit, I hope the Sunshine laws show all contact between the state’s lawyers and any outside parties.

[dewilson58]

We have not been able to talk about it for a year. Now you know.

Who is "We"??

[rustyp]

Who is "We"??

- :confused:

[Bill14564]

Who is "We"??

Husband and wife ( or at least SO)

[conman5652@aol.com]

Should never been charged. Appellate court said so. Little hitler lost on this one

[dewilson58]

Husband and wife ( or at least SO)

The Fox is O's wife???

[conman5652@aol.com]

Rail roaded in the first place. Knows he was right and never quit the fight to get justice. Could or would u do the same??

[Altavia]

There is this.

Revolt in The Villages Ended With a 72-Year-Old Political Prisoner (https://theintercept.com/2023/02/05/ron-desantis-florida-villages-oren-miller/?fbclid=IwAR1n-z8G80G2fMWZWX3I2tQyT-_hz27yNwo03FL6NYt9qZKLz5q03ut5yHU)

And this...

The Intercept - InfluenceWatch - InfluenceWatch (https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/the-intercept/)

[Bill14564]

The Fox is O's wife???

Or similarly close.

[rustyp]

The Fox is O's wife???

:shrug:

[eyc234]

How about this, he was charged and then found guilty by a jury of his peers. Then there must have been enough proof that what he did broke the law and now a judge says all 12 of the jurors was wrong. These people broke the law and suffer the consequences of their actions.

[Altavia]

How about this, he was charged and then found guilty by a jury of his peers. Then there must have been enough proof that what he did broke the law and now a judge says all 12 of the jurors was wrong. These people broke the law and suffer the consequences of their actions.

Did you read this post from a user who was practicing attorney for 40 years who was both a Federal and State prosecutor?

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/2275190-post57.html

[LuvNH]

Are the Millers still residing in The Villages? I think if it was me, I would want to be a million miles away. I was brought up on "you cannot fight City Hall" and I guess it is correct.

I am surprised this story has not been picked up by one of the major news channels or news shows.

[Normal]

Is it just me who doesn’t get why people are beating up on Mr. Miller? It almost like there is still a dark edge against this law abiding citizen. A man that wanted to serve our community and stand for what is right, is being kicked at for no reason. What is wrong with some people?

[Cliff Fr]

No... thats the whole point. Put through hell then found not guilty after all. Witch hunt comes to mind...

Yes, like the one going on right now in New York City

[graciegirl]

I stand firmly with the Governor's views on this.

Also support the developer.

[Bogie Shooter]

Yes, like the one going on right now in New York City

Oh my yes, poor, poor innocent abused guy who did nothing wrong………….

[blueash]

Yes, like the one going on right now in New York City

Which one is that? I am aware of a civil, not criminal trial, where a very powerful developer and he and his corporations and his children are accused of using their influence cheating to get a financial goal that saved them millions of dollars. Kind of like how the Morse family used its power to save itself millions by having the taxpayers pick up the bill for building infrastructure. But that is a civil trial and there is only a financial penalty not being sent to jail. Is that the one that has you find comparable?

[Bill14564]

I stand firmly with the Governor's views on this.

Also support the developer.

I feel the opposite but my explanation would not be allowed here.

[Topspinmo]

Why is it that Oren Miller was removed from office but George Santos, who seems to have done all sorts of illegal things, has not been?

Federal vs state.

[BrianL99]

How about this, he was charged and then found guilty by a jury of his peers. Then there must have been enough proof that what he did broke the law and now a judge says all 12 of the jurors was wrong. These people broke the law and suffer the consequences of their actions.




As a practicing attorney for 40 years who was both a Federal and State prosecutor, I fully agree with the Court's opinion. In a criminal investigation, the goal of an investigator should be to determine if a crime was committed and not to cause a crime, perjury, to be committed. Unfortunately, the latter has become a dominant tactic of many investigators and prosecutors. In simple terms, it is: " I don't know that we can build a strong enough case against him. Instead, let's see if we can get him to lie". Frankly, this is not the way our investigators and prosecutors should go about their business.




Wise words and having read just about every article published about the situation and read the decisions, this seems to be exactly what happened.

The local newspapers and the Developer's Public Relations machine, did a heck of a job of polluting the jury pool, long before Miller got to trial.

[Topspinmo]

[QUOTE=blueash;2275393]Which one is that? I am aware of a civil, not criminal trial, where a very powerful developer and he and his corporations and his children are accused of using their influence cheating to get a financial goal that saved them millions of dollars. Kind of like how the Morse family used its power to save itself millions by having the taxpayers pick up the bill for building infrastructure. But that is a civil trial and there is only a financial penalty not being sent to jail. Is that the one that has you find comparable?[/


//////

[Topspinmo]

It's sad and scary what has happened to our judicial system.

He is probably wiped out financially trying to defend himself and will be traumatized the rest of his life.


////

[blueash]

I stand firmly with the Governor's views on this.

Also support the developer.

What are the governor's views on this which you stand firmly to support. As far as I know he has never expressed any opinion on the matter, but you reflexively support whatever it was he never said.

All the governor did was use his Constitutional power to suspend from office an elected Commissioner. He never stated whether he felt the charges were justified, he never commented on the verdict or the mechanism that ensued to bring those charges or the Morses. Now he certainly may have used his Constitutional power to help out his friend, Mr. Morse, who has financially supported him in the past and he hopes will financially support him in the future, but he never said that out loud.

Please Gracie, I am interested in your thinking? What view did the Governor put forward in Oren Miller's case that you are finding worthy of support?

[DrMack]

I feel the opposite but my explanation would not be allowed here.

I’ll be the first to admit I’m very new to TVs. I am quite literate though. From what I understand after several articles this guy was overwhelmingly voted into office? He wanted to cut taxes on homeowners by making TV developer pay the proper amount for impact fees? The Developer didn’t like it? Prosecutors for the county came down heavy handed until a crime was discovered they thought would stick? He was later exonerated because he wasn’t guilty.

This is all from the outside looking in. I don’t intend on taking any side of an argument. I just want to know the facts if anyone has one that can be backed up? Am I wrong on any of this?

It does make us a bit uncomfortable that we will be moving into this in the sublime of all we wanted.

[dewilson58]

I’ll be the first to admit I’m very new to TVs. I am quite literate though. From what I understand after several articles this guy was overwhelmingly voted into office? He wanted to cut taxes on homeowners by making TV developer pay the proper amount for impact fees? The Developer didn’t like it? Prosecutors for the county came down heavy handed until a crime was discovered they thought would stick? He was later exonerated because he wasn’t guilty.

This is all from the outside looking in. I don’t intend on taking any side of an argument. I just want to know the facts if anyone has one that can be backed up? Am I wrong on any of this?

It does make us a bit uncomfortable that we will be moving into this in the sublime of all we wanted.

Many versions to this story..............sit back and enjoy, more to come.

:popcorn::popcorn:

[dewilson58]

////

Last edited by Topspinmo; Today at 09:35 AM. Reason: Afraid I’ll be jailed on TOTV

:censored:

Darn.

[Taltarzac725]

They have done great work for this community. I mean the Millers. Met them a number of years back so I am biased but doubt if they remember me. They were looking for the owners of a lost dog on our street. It turned out in was my late neighbor's deaf chef son's critter who had gotten out while they were out enjoying the Villages in one of the restaurants. The dog had sat by the door on another neighbor until they let it in and called Lost Pets of the Villages. The Millers would often go out to find lost dogs.

Oren Miller did get a raw deal from the justice system such as it is here.

I had also been out but probably just taking my dog out to pee.

The Villages is a company town though. I recall Gary Corsair did an article on me in 2007 and was later doing a series on Big Foot for the The Villages Daily Sun . He left for greener pastures. The article was on my getting stuff for survivors/victims in crimes into area library systems. Mainly the Florida Victim Services Directory link to their webpages.

Mr. Corsair also wrote a lot about local area high school basketball history.

[Bill14564]

I’ll be the first to admit I’m very new to TVs. I am quite literate though. From what I understand after several articles this guy was overwhelmingly voted into office? He wanted to cut taxes on homeowners by making TV developer pay the proper amount for impact fees? The Developer didn’t like it? Prosecutors for the county came down heavy handed until a crime was discovered they thought would stick? He was later exonerated because he wasn’t guilty.

This is all from the outside looking in. I don’t intend on taking any side of an argument. I just want to know the facts if anyone has one that can be backed up? Am I wrong on any of this?

It does make us a bit uncomfortable that we will be moving into this in the sublime of all we wanted.

The involvement of the Developer is only speculation and accusation, I have seen no facts to support it. In many things, the Developer is seen as the boogeyman and it is believed to be behind the scenes pulling the strings.

There is a great distance between innocent and guilty. His convicted but recently the conviction was overturned. At best he made some poor choices which put him in a position to be prosecuted. There was a whole lot of smoke and a few flashes of orange but the appeals court disagreed with the jury about whether there was a sufficient amount of flame.

If you are the type of person to be interested in how the sausage of local politics is made, you may be frustrated. If you are moving here to enjoy the weather and the amenities and don't really care about the sausage then you will be happy. It seems like the vast majority of the people fall into the second category.

[BrianL99]

The involvement of the Developer is only speculation and accusation, I have seen no facts to support it. In many things the Developer is seen as the boogeyman.




There are folks out there who still believe Nixon was a crook and knew about the Watergate break in.

This "follow the money" theory is a whole lot of baloney. :doh: