California and Electric vehicle truck deliveries

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188?st=csn5ujuvxukklkv)

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188)

Not thinking that this scenario was the intended outcome, but then again, CA govt was a bulb that has never lit up to be seen.

Not sure which link will work, or if either link will work for everyone, posted with no guarantee of visibility. This was a link which I clicked on and was visible to me and i read, and I was not logged into the WSJ, so apologies if it doesn't work for you. . has to be a disclaimer as someone turned me in for a link which was behind a paywall for them, but not for me and I don't know why i could see it and they couldn't, even when not being logged into the site. I will copy and paste the article if requested if the link doesn't work

[JRcorvette]

Not sure why anyone would by an EV?

[Two Bills]

"........and their off!" :crap2:

[Caymus]

California is in great shape. The budget deficit will only be $68 Billion.:):)

[Spectreron]

Not sure why anyone would by an EV?

Because they have better tech and are more fun to drive than any corvette!

[manaboutown]

Philadelphia Owns 261 EVs but Only 107 Chargers… This leaves about 150 city EVs with no dedicated place to recharge, and many of them are competing with other city EVs or consumers for places to connect. The local NBC news affiliate found that many of the city chargers are located in fleet shops, police districts, and prisons, where they are not accessible to other city EVs. To make it worse, the Licenses and Inspections (LI) Department reported that none of the city’s EV charging stations obtained the required electric permits before they were installed. The LI Department has ticketed at least 46 of the 57 city charging sites. The LI Department has 115 EVs, the most of any department, but none of the city’s charging stations are at the department’s office buildings or parking lots.

The deputy director of energy services, who oversees Philadelphia’s EVs and charging stations, thinks there was some confusion about the need for permits. It’s funny until you consider that the city is writing violation tickets, which eventually will be paid by the offending departments with taxpayer funds.

[Normal]

California is in great shape. The budget deficit will only be $68 Billion.:):)

And climbing, that’s why they are trying to impose an exit tax on all its residents that are moving or have moved out of the state.

[npwalters]

interesting read. Thanks

[Topspinmo]

Because they have better tech and are more fun to drive than any corvette!


For 100 miles. :)

[Pugchief]

Not sure why anyone would by an EV?

Neither linked worked for me, but this one is good if you want to
read the whole article (https://archive.is/lip17)

The problem isn't EVs, it's mandates and the unintended consequences that result. EVs are great if you have your own garage to charge in overnight, and don't drive more than 150 miles in an average day. Whoever thought this was a good idea for semi-trailers wasn't thinking it thru. "Facts don't care about your feelings" applies.

[Topspinmo]

Philadelphia Owns 261 EVs but Only 107 Chargers… This leaves about 150 city EVs with no dedicated place to recharge, and many of them are competing with other city EVs or consumers for places to connect. The local NBC news affiliate found that many of the city chargers are located in fleet shops, police districts, and prisons, where they are not accessible to other city EVs. To make it worse, the Licenses and Inspections (LI) Department reported that none of the city’s EV charging stations obtained the required electric permits before they were installed. The LI Department has ticketed at least 46 of the 57 city charging sites. The LI Department has 115 EVs, the most of any department, but none of the city’s charging stations are at the department’s office buildings or parking lots.

The deputy director of energy services, who oversees Philadelphia’s EVs and charging stations, thinks there was some confusion about the need for permits. It’s funny until you consider that the city is writing violation tickets, which eventually will be paid by the offending departments with taxpayer funds.


IMO problem is all these permits that’s required on any upgraded or replacement.

[Spectreron]

For 100 miles. :)

Try 250-325 +. Get facts before you discuss something you know nothing about. It’s embarrassing.

[Topspinmo]

Try 250-325 +. Get facts before you discuss something you know nothing about. It’s embarrassing.

Not in zero temperatures or driving like corvette drivers do.:pepper2:

[Pugchief]

IMO problem is all these permits that’s required on any upgraded or replacement.

Yep. Again, it's not EVs, it's mandates and unintended consequences.

[tophcfa]

Those left coast idiots have no common sense. When is the big one going to dump them all in the Pacific Ocean?

[Topspinmo]

And climbing, that’s why they are trying to impose an exit tax on all its residents that are moving or have moved out of the state.

Exit tax… good luck with that once exited. :oops:

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Whoever thought this was a good idea for semi-trailers wasn't thinking it thru.

Just another example that the world doesn't scale linearly. . .
And sometimes the design doesn't scale at all. .

[manaboutown]

Alabama Firefighters Pour 36,000 Gallons of Water Into Single Burning Car, Highlighting Deadly Problem on American Roadways (https://ijr.com/alabama-firefighters-pour-36000-gallons-water-single-burning-car-highlighting-deadly-problem-american-roadways/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ijr&utm_campaign=dlvrit&fbclid=IwAR17y26mX-HUbD-EE7WBoSNARooS0VQRaD8oYV9oOtZF7H_ZoL3TOlbRpmY)

[Bill14564]

Alabama Firefighters Pour 36,000 Gallons of Water Into Single Burning Car, Highlighting Deadly Problem on American Roadways (https://ijr.com/alabama-firefighters-pour-36000-gallons-water-single-burning-car-highlighting-deadly-problem-american-roadways/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ijr&utm_campaign=dlvrit&fbclid=IwAR17y26mX-HUbD-EE7WBoSNARooS0VQRaD8oYV9oOtZF7H_ZoL3TOlbRpmY)

Finally! An automobile fire that actually involved a lithium battery!

This fire was a Tesla car and not a electric delivery truck. But yes, electric vehicles can catch on fire and the fires are hard to extinguish. Fortunately, there are far fewer EV fires than there are ICE (gas/diesel) fires.

(Interestingly, the rate of hybrid fires is quite high. I still haven't found an explanation for why.)

[Two Bills]

I have never had or known of a battery powered torch or watch to catch fire either!

[Dusty_Star]

Finally! An automobile fire that actually involved a lithium battery!

This fire was a Tesla car and not a electric delivery truck. But yes, electric vehicles can catch on fire and the fires are hard to extinguish. Fortunately, there are far fewer EV fires than there are ICE (gas/diesel) fires.

(Interestingly, the rate of hybrid fires is quite high. I still haven't found an explanation for why.)

Here's another one, a Tesla, parked. It is from last year, but I remembered it & the discussion it sparked, so I looked for the link. Apparently it is a problem for fire departments. Had this one combusted in an apartment parking garage rather than an outdoor parking lot, the results could have been disastrous.

Fully Involved Tesla Car Fire Takes 42 Minutes to Extinguish - Stamford Fire Department (https://www.stamfordfire.com/2022/09/15/fully-involved-tesla-car-fire-takes-42-minutes-to-extinguish/#:~:text=As%20soon%20as%20Engine%204,per%20minute% 20to%20the%20fire).

[Bill14564]

Here's another one, a Tesla, parked. It is from last year, but I remembered it & the discussion it sparked, so I looked for the link. Apparently it is a problem for fire departments. Had this one combusted in an apartment parking garage rather than an outdoor parking lot, the results could have been disastrous.

Fully Involved Tesla Car Fire Takes 42 Minutes to Extinguish - Stamford Fire Department (https://www.stamfordfire.com/2022/09/15/fully-involved-tesla-car-fire-takes-42-minutes-to-extinguish/#:~:text=As%20soon%20as%20Engine%204,per%20minute% 20to%20the%20fire).

Yeah, they happen, but far less frequently than ICE vehicles. If an ICE vehicle combusts in an apartment parking garage rather than an outdoor parking lot, the results could be disastrous.

It would be interesting to know the cause of the fire. Yes, the batteries made the fire worse, but did they cause the fire or were they ignited by the fire?

Another thing to wonder about: Was the battery fire extinguished or did the batteries simply burn out? Would the results have been the same if the water was used only to contain the fire rather than extinguish it? Or, would that have risked explosion rather than a 42 minute burn? I don't know the answer and haven't found any discussion, I'm just curious.

[Caymus]

Another fire. Not sure the intended use of the Lithium batteries.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cargo-ship-carrying-burning-lithium-ion-batteries-reaches-alaska-but-kept-offshore-for-safety/ar-AA1mfx4j?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=e56fb602a439474f923cd58c8cb85d21&ei=127

[Topspinmo]

Yeah, they happen, but far less frequently than ICE vehicles. If an ICE vehicle combusts in an apartment parking garage rather than an outdoor parking lot, the results could be disastrous.

It would be interesting to know the cause of the fire. Yes, the batteries made the fire worse, but did they cause the fire or were they ignited by the fire?

Another thing to wonder about: Was the battery fire extinguished or did the batteries simply burn out? Would the results have been the same if the water was used only to contain the fire rather than extinguish it? Or, would that have risked explosion rather than a 42 minute burn? I don't know the answer and haven't found any discussion, I'm just curious.


IMO less cause there are less and EV are fairly new. IMO that number will go up as they age, just like ICE vehicles.

[gorillarick]

Exit tax… good luck with that once exited. :oops:

Issue with a county tax in CA; took five years to get it off my credit report even though paid within a month. Dinged big time.

Corp tax in CA. I paid two years after leaving the state, $750 minimum per year to the fascists.

[Topspinmo]

Issue with a county tax in CA; took five years to get it off my credit report even though paid within a month. Dinged big time.

Corp tax in CA. I paid two years after leaving the state, $750 minimum per year to the fascists.

I wouldn’t have paid it, at my age I don’t care about credit report cause I haven’t had loan for 20 years.

[Two Bills]

Always wondered why people worried about credit rating after retirement.
I haven't had a decent credit rating for donkeys years.
Couldn't care less.:shrug:

[Bill14564]

Always wondered why people worried about credit rating after retirement.
I haven't had a decent credit rating for donkeys years.
Couldn't care less.:shrug:

Credit rating and credit reports are used for more than just mortgages these days. If this has worked for you, great. It might not work for everyone.

[Normal]

I get the whole don’t pollute, I really do. I also get how cool it would be to run everything on electricity. California is all smoke and mirrors though. They are by far the largest importer of electricity in the US (PA is the largest exporter). That electricity is produced in large part with natural gas, coal and some renewables. The state also has problems staying out of blackouts.

While leaders spew their lies and dreams that are nowhere close to the truth, the residents in that state suffer. I have to laugh at the latest “No gas stove” initiative that hampers homeowners, but allows restaurants to cook as they wish. IMHO, the state is ripe for a turnover in governance.

[Pugchief]

IMHO, the state is ripe for a turnover in governance.

I wouldn't hold my breath. If Chicago and NYC are any indication, people continue to do the same things over and over while expecting different (better) results. The problems get worse, but the people never wise up or change. I'm not sure if it is bc they are so ignorant that they don't see the connection between their actions and the outcome or bc they are so ignorant that they believe the lies and promises each time around and never learn their lesson.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Credit rating and credit reports are used for more than just mortgages these days. If this has worked for you, great. It might not work for everyone.

yeah, had this discussion before, I don't care about my credit rating in retirement either. That doesn't mean that don't pay my bills, I pay my bills on time or ahead of time, I let the credit agency do their ratings, while I do my financially responsible activities. Then i don't worry about what i can't control.

[Dusty_Star]

Always wondered why people worried about credit rating after retirement.
I haven't had a decent credit rating for donkeys years.
Couldn't care less.:shrug:

In the US there is frequently a huge difference in premium payments for insurance, for cars or houses, based on credit rating. Maybe even if the insurance company will cover someone. A scam, sure. But it exists.

[tophcfa]

In the US there is frequently a huge difference in premium payments for insurance, for cars or houses, based on credit rating. Maybe even if the insurance company will cover someone. A scam, sure. But it exists.

It’s not a scam, property and casualty insurance companies are in the business of profitably underwriting, pricing, and diversifying risk. Statistically significant data has proven that customers with lower credit scores are more likely to file tenuous claims and are therefore riskier to insure. Hence the higher premiums based on inferior credit scores. Without this credit based pricing adjustment, everyone would be charged higher premiums, effectively requiring those with better credit to subsidize others.

[oldtimes]

IMO less cause there are less and EV are fairly new. IMO that number will go up as they age, just like ICE vehicles.

Exactly!

[manaboutown]

"Get a horse!" is what they used to say in the early days of ICE powered vehicles which tended to get stuck in mud or otherwise break down.

[oldtimes]

Yeah, they happen, but far less frequently than ICE vehicles. If an ICE vehicle combusts in an apartment parking garage rather than an outdoor parking lot, the results could be disastrous.

It would be interesting to know the cause of the fire. Yes, the batteries made the fire worse, but did they cause the fire or were they ignited by the fire?

Another thing to wonder about: Was the battery fire extinguished or did the batteries simply burn out? Would the results have been the same if the water was used only to contain the fire rather than extinguish it? Or, would that have risked explosion rather than a 42 minute burn? I don't know the answer and haven't found any discussion, I'm just curious.

This is the reality

Challenges During Electric Vehicle Fires in Open & Closed Parking Garages | Firehouse (https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/article/53063898/challenges-during-electric-vehicle-fires-in-open-closed-parking-garages)

[Bill14564]

This is the reality

Challenges During Electric Vehicle Fires in Open & Closed Parking Garages | Firehouse (https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/article/53063898/challenges-during-electric-vehicle-fires-in-open-closed-parking-garages)

Yes, and…?

[Topspinmo]

Credit rating and credit reports are used for more than just mortgages these days. If this has worked for you, great. It might not work for everyone.


To get utilities, internet, phone service most want credit check. I had to unlock my frozen credit for day is some cases.

[Topspinmo]

"Get a horse!" is what they used to say in the early days of ICE powered vehicles which tended to get stuck in mud or otherwise break down.

Not that safe either, they can kick. My great, great, great grandfather got kicked in head and died in his early 60’s in late 1800’s

[Topspinmo]

I have never had or known of a battery powered torch or watch to catch fire either!

Maybe batteries are so small they can’t generate enough heat to catch fire?

[Dusty_Star]

Maybe batteries are so small they can’t generate enough heat to catch fire?

Yeah, it's tough to get a good thermal runaway with flashlights.

[Two Bills]

Maybe batteries are so small they can’t generate enough heat to catch fire?

They used to be big when they first arrived, same as the car batteries.
They will get smaller and safer as they evolve.
Early days!

[Sandy and Ed]

“……... It’s funny until you consider that the city is writing violation tickets, which eventually will be paid by the offending departments with taxpayer funds.”

Just an accounting entry.

[ithos]

Not sure why anyone would by an EV?

Because it is so good for the environment!

Let us consider, for example, electric cars. To give an idea of this effect, producing a battery weighing 1,100 pounds emits over 70% more carbon dioxide than producing a conventional car in Germany, according to research by the automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors.

Furthermore, lithium mining requires a lot of water. To extract one ton of lithium requires about 500,000 liters of water, and can result in the poisoning of reservoirs and related health problems.

The Paradox of Lithium (https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2023/01/18/the-paradox-of-lithium/)

[Cliff Fr]

Look up the Luton parking garage fire in England. There's a question of whether it started with a hybrid Range Rover or a gas powered car but the results were total devastation. The fire department had to let it burn.

[Wondering]

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188?st=csn5ujuvxukklkv)

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188)

Not thinking that this scenario was the intended outcome, but then again, CA govt was a bulb that has never lit up to be seen.

Not sure which link will work, or if either link will work for everyone, posted with no guarantee of visibility. This was a link which I clicked on and was visible to me and i read, and I was not logged into the WSJ, so apologies if it doesn't work for you. . has to be a disclaimer as someone turned me in for a link which was behind a paywall for them, but not for me and I don't know why i could see it and they couldn't, even when not being logged into the site. I will copy and paste the article if requested if the link doesn't work
Why post a WSJ article? It is owned by the Murdochs. The same family that owns Fox Noise, which lost a law suit for more than 3/4 of a billion dollars for lying to their viewers, and is being sued for more than a billion, for the same reason, by other corporations for the same lies. Why are you criticizing California, which has the 8th leading economy in the world! Not very smart!

[defrey12]

Exit tax… good luck with that once exited. :oops:

Oh, do NOT underestimate the power of the CA Franchise Tax Board! They’re WORSE than the IRS! They reached into my back pocket while a GA resident—after 15 years—merely because I paid my father’s caretaker (he lived in CA) as an employee of my GA corporation. They said I was “doing business” in their State and thus subject to their corp and income taxes. Pure BS!

[Dusty_Star]

They used to be big when they first arrived, same as the car batteries.
They will get smaller and safer as they evolve.
Early days!

Very early days, the first electric car was built by German engineer Andreas Flocken in 1888.

[PurePeach]

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188?st=csn5ujuvxukklkv)

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188)

Not thinking that this scenario was the intended outcome, but then again, CA govt was a bulb that has never lit up to be seen.

Not sure which link will work, or if either link will work for everyone, posted with no guarantee of visibility. This was a link which I clicked on and was visible to me and i read, and I was not logged into the WSJ, so apologies if it doesn't work for you. . has to be a disclaimer as someone turned me in for a link which was behind a paywall for them, but not for me and I don't know why i could see it and they couldn't, even when not being logged into the site. I will copy and paste the article if requested if the link doesn't work.

First one worked for me. This is insane. We’ve got to get this country straightened out or we’re headed to destitution. :cryin2: :cus:

[Topspinmo]

Why post a WSJ article? It is owned by the Murdochs. The same family that owns Fox Noise, which lost a law suit for more than 3/4 of a billion dollars for lying to their viewers, and is being sued for more than a billion, for the same reason, by other corporations for the same lies. Why are you criticizing California, which has the 8th leading economy in the world! Not very smart!


If it’s so great why didn’t you move there? :popcorn:

[Topspinmo]

.

First one worked for me. This is insane. We’ve got to get this country straightened out or we’re headed to destitution. :cryin2: :cus:


Prefect example of Rome falling and too far in drink IMO. Luckily I won’t see the total destruction.

[ithos]

Why post a WSJ article? It is owned by the Murdochs. The same family that owns Fox Noise, which lost a law suit for more than 3/4 of a billion dollars for lying to their viewers, and is being sued for more than a billion, for the same reason, by other corporations for the same lies. Why are you criticizing California, which has the 8th leading economy in the world! Not very smart!

Look at all the stupid people leaving California. Don't they realize what a great government they have?

The moving truck rental company’s annual growth index shows that more moving trucks departed from California than any other state for the third consecutive year. California has had one of the greatest net losses of U-Haul trucks since 2016, always landing in one of the lowest-growth spots.

More U-Haul trucks left California than any other state in 2022 (https://www.ksbw.com/article/more-u-haul-trucks-left-california-than-any-other-state-in-2022/42389334)

[rsmurano]

We are decades away from making EVs a viable choice for a vehicle:

When you can charge an EV at as many charging stations as there are gas stations;

when it takes the same amount of time to charge an EV as it does to fill up a car with gas;

When your neighborhood mechanic will work on the EV;

When the battery system can last as long as a gas engine, which can be decades;

When disposing an EV battery isn’t a hazardous waste issue;

When the EV is priced similar to a gas car;

When the countries electrical infrastructure can handle the hundreds of millions of EVs charging on a daily basis;

When you drive an EV across country, you are not nervous as heck that you will get to the next charging station with chargers in working order and you don’t have to wait hours in line to charge your car;

Maybe my great great grand kids will be able to enjoy an EV.

[ken.yotz]

You obviously don't know that your credit rating also affects your auto and home insurance rates.

[Dusty_Star]

It’s not a scam, property and casualty insurance companies are in the business of profitably underwriting, pricing, and diversifying risk. Statistically significant data has proven that customers with lower credit scores are more likely to file tenuous claims and are therefore riskier to insure. Hence the higher premiums based on inferior credit scores. Without this credit based pricing adjustment, everyone would be charged higher premiums, effectively requiring those with better credit to subsidize others.

I believe it to be a scam because people are unable to have a mortgage without insurance, I believe it to be a scam because state legislatures have made car insurance mandatory. I believe it to be a scam because the insurance industry used its power to convince legistatures & mortgage banks to comply with the insurance companies best interests. I also believe that insurance companies gladly take premiums, but frequently do everything they can to avoid making payments. I am not making a value judgement as to whether people should or should not have house & car insurance. So now that insurance companies have made it imperative to have insurance (sold by them), they use credit ratings to raise premiums, yeah, I do see your point, but I will continue to consider it a dirty business.

[Two Bills]

Very early days, the first electric car was built by German engineer Andreas Flocken in 1888.

Don't think he used Lithium batteries though.
I worked a weekend milk round as a kid with electric milk float.
I used to have to push it home for milkman as it died!

[Topspinmo]

You obviously don't know that your credit rating also affects your auto and home insurance rates.

Yep, any excuse to raise rates. :MOJE_whot:

[Pugchief]

Why post a WSJ article? It is owned by the Murdochs. The same family that owns Fox Noise, which lost a law suit for more than 3/4 of a billion dollars for lying to their viewers, and is being sued for more than a billion, for the same reason, by other corporations for the same lies. Why are you criticizing California, which has the 8th leading economy in the world! Not very smart!

Was this an attempt at humor? First, implying that just bc ABC NBC CBS MSNBC CNN WaPo NYTimes haven't been sued, they must be telling the truth. LOL. All of the MSM lies, fabricates stories to fit their preferred narrative and gaslights their viewers.

As for CA, the size of their economy is mostly irrelevant. China and Russia have huge economies, but that doesn't mean you'd want to live there or that they are doing anything right. As someone else already pointed out, people are fleeing in droves. Not exactly an endorsement. If it's so great, why are they leaving? The weather is great tho.

[biker1]

We are decades away from making EVs a viable choice for a vehicle:

In decades, the only gas vehicles you will be able to buy will be used.

When you can charge an EV at as many charging stations as there are gas stations;

We don't need as many charging stations today as gas stations. The number will ramp up with time as the number of EVs increase.

when it takes the same amount of time to charge an EV as it does to fill up a car with gas;

Is that really any issue? For most people, the majority of their charging will be over night at home.

When your neighborhood mechanic will work on the EV;

Reliability has ceased to be an issue for both ICE and EVs. EVs have lower maintenance than ICE vehicles.

When the battery system can last as long as a gas engine, which can be decades;

Same for EVs. There are many EVs with 300K miles.

When disposing an EV battery isn’t a hazardous waste issue;

Recycling of EV batteries is ramping up, the same as it did for gas engines. This isn't an issue, as much as you would like to make it so without any evidence.

When the EV is priced similar to a gas car;

Check out prices of current EVs.

When the countries electrical infrastructure can handle the hundreds of millions of EVs charging on a daily basis;

If all autos were replaced by EVs tomorrow, the amount of electric would need to increase by about 25%. We have about 30 years before this will happen.

When you drive an EV across country, you are not nervous as heck that you will get to the next charging station with chargers in working order and you don’t have to wait hours in line to charge your car;

Please provide evidence that this is a real issue.

Maybe my great great grand kids will be able to enjoy an EV.

Whatever.

If you don't want to buy an EV then fine, don't buy one. Nobody is forcing you, but stop making up nonsense.

[biker1]

///

[jimjamuser]

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188?st=csn5ujuvxukklkv)

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188)

Not thinking that this scenario was the intended outcome, but then again, CA govt was a bulb that has never lit up to be seen.

Not sure which link will work, or if either link will work for everyone, posted with no guarantee of visibility. This was a link which I clicked on and was visible to me and i read, and I was not logged into the WSJ, so apologies if it doesn't work for you. . has to be a disclaimer as someone turned me in for a link which was behind a paywall for them, but not for me and I don't know why i could see it and they couldn't, even when not being logged into the site. I will copy and paste the article if requested if the link doesn't work
Good thread subject to talk about.Right now at this point in time the article made the point that the drivers are making less money with the electric rigs than with diesel rigs. OK, but let us NOT forget that electric vehicles are in their infancy compared to gas and diesel vehicles that are like OLD men. AT one point the driver had to drive about 30 miles out of his way to find a charger. That will certainly be improved in the next FEW years even without any technology improvement. It is hard to put a price on CLEAN air and quieter roads and quiet for the driver. CLEAN air certainly in the future will extend the useful lives of humans from fewer chest cancer problems and other health problems.
........Electric motors have the potential to have MUCH lower maintenance costs than the internal combustion engine. This will be a BIG factor in favor of E-vehicles in the future. With E-vehicles you are getting clean air and less maintenance. Anyway in 20 years there may be zero oil.

[jimjamuser]

Philadelphia Owns 261 EVs but Only 107 Chargers… This leaves about 150 city EVs with no dedicated place to recharge, and many of them are competing with other city EVs or consumers for places to connect. The local NBC news affiliate found that many of the city chargers are located in fleet shops, police districts, and prisons, where they are not accessible to other city EVs. To make it worse, the Licenses and Inspections (LI) Department reported that none of the city’s EV charging stations obtained the required electric permits before they were installed. The LI Department has ticketed at least 46 of the 57 city charging sites. The LI Department has 115 EVs, the most of any department, but none of the city’s charging stations are at the department’s office buildings or parking lots.

The deputy director of energy services, who oversees Philadelphia’s EVs and charging stations, thinks there was some confusion about the need for permits. It’s funny until you consider that the city is writing violation tickets, which eventually will be paid by the offending departments with taxpayer funds.
We are in a period of RAPID TECHNICAL CHANGES. One of which is from fossil fuel vehicles to electric vehicles. There are ALWAYS going to be IMPERFECTIONS in these types of changeovers. The changeover from horse-and-buggy to fossil fuel vehicles took many years and required many problems to be solved.

[jimjamuser]

Oh, do NOT underestimate the power of the CA Franchise Tax Board! They’re WORSE than the IRS! They reached into my back pocket while a GA resident—after 15 years—merely because I paid my father’s caretaker (he lived in CA) as an employee of my GA corporation. They said I was “doing business” in their State and thus subject to their corp and income taxes. Pure BS!
Sounds like Ca. caught someone manipulating their laws.

[melpetezrinski]

It’s not a scam, property and casualty insurance companies are in the business of profitably underwriting, pricing, and diversifying risk. Statistically significant data has proven that customers with lower credit scores are more likely to file tenuous claims and are therefore riskier to insure. Hence the higher premiums based on inferior credit scores. Without this credit based pricing adjustment, everyone would be charged higher premiums, effectively requiring those with better credit to subsidize others.

Great post! I'm amazed that people don't understand this basic concept and even boast about not needing good credit anymore.

[Vermilion Villager]

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188?st=csn5ujuvxukklkv)

Electric Mandates Have California Truckers Charging Overtime - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-mandates-have-california-truckers-charging-overtime-advanced-clean-fleets-regulation-dda13188)

Not thinking that this scenario was the intended outcome, but then again, CA govt was a bulb that has never lit up to be seen.

Not sure which link will work, or if either link will work for everyone, posted with no guarantee of visibility. This was a link which I clicked on and was visible to me and i read, and I was not logged into the WSJ, so apologies if it doesn't work for you. . has to be a disclaimer as someone turned me in for a link which was behind a paywall for them, but not for me and I don't know why i could see it and they couldn't, even when not being logged into the site. I will copy and paste the article if requested if the link doesn't work
First....this is a "hypothitical" situation. Considering the law just went into effect today, I doubt anybody has lost anything.
Also...The law only applies to NEW vehicles....for legacy vehicles nothing has changed From CARB:
Drayage fleets. Beginning January 1, 2024, trucks must be registered in the CARB Online System to conduct drayage activities in California. Non-zero-emission “legacy” drayage trucks may register in the CARB Online System through December 31, 2023. Legacy drayage trucks can continue to operate through their minimum useful life. Beginning January 1, 2024, only zero-emission drayage trucks may register in the CARB Online System. All drayage trucks entering seaports and intermodal railyards would be required to be zero-emission by 2035.
Don't you EV haters ever give up??? :cus:

[ithos]

First....this is a "hypothitical" situation. Considering the law just went into effect today, I doubt anybody has lost anything.
Also...The law only applies to NEW vehicles....for legacy vehicles nothing has changed From CARB:
Drayage fleets. Beginning January 1, 2024, trucks must be registered in the CARB Online System to conduct drayage activities in California. Non-zero-emission “legacy” drayage trucks may register in the CARB Online System through December 31, 2023. Legacy drayage trucks can continue to operate through their minimum useful life. Beginning January 1, 2024, only zero-emission drayage trucks may register in the CARB Online System. All drayage trucks entering seaports and intermodal railyards would be required to be zero-emission by 2035.
Don't you EV haters ever give up??? :cus:

We don't hate EVs. We hate EV mandates being shoved down our throat which will result in a dramatic decline in our productivity and standard of living.

[dhdallas]

Not sure why anyone would by an EV?

Because some of us are not so old and set in our ways to be resistant to change & unable to keep an open mind about new things. An EV is a perfect choice as a second vehicle used for errands, daily commutes under 200 miles, and the things one normally uses a second vehicle for. They are for people who own their own home and can have the charger installed in their garage where all they have to do is plug it in at night & it's always ready to go.

EV's are NOT practical as an your only car. They are NOT for vacations & long trips due to the unreliability of charging infrastructure and the limited range of their batteries. They are also NOT for renters who cannot have a charger located at their home.

But for the first group, EV's are less combustible than gas vehicles (although EV fires are difficult to extinguish). EV's have extremely low maintenance costs because they never need air & oil filters, oil changes, tune ups, injector problems, exhaust system replacement, starters & solenoids, belts & hoses and of course, they never need gas. And they are so nice and quiet with no smelly, noisy exhaust!

People hated the horseless carriage when it first came on the scene. Gas stations used to be few and far and never open at night. When we traveled at night on vacations into Canada in the 50's & 60's, we had to carry extra gas with us. All this will change. Battery tech will improve, range will get longer & longer, reliable chargers will be as plentiful as gas pumps are now, and this generation who is stuck on old school vehicle technology will be dead & gone.

For every story about someone's bad experience with an EV there are a thousand good stories. The bad experiences are so rare & EV's so new that the media likes to focus on them. Bad experiences with gas powered vehicles are so common it's hardly news.

EV's are the future and for a lot of people, are the perfect vehicle.

[Byte1]

:boom::a20:

[Normal]

:boom::a20:

Wait, that’s cannibalism. Like a pig eating leftover bacon?

[Caymus]

Because some of us are not so old and set in our ways to be resistant to change & unable to keep an open mind about new things. An EV is a perfect choice as a second vehicle used for errands, daily commutes under 200 miles, and the things one normally uses a second vehicle for. They are for people who own their own home and can have the charger installed in their garage where all they have to do is plug it in at night & it's always ready to go.

EV's are NOT practical as an your only car. They are NOT for vacations & long trips due to the unreliability of charging infrastructure and the limited range of their batteries. They are also NOT for renters who cannot have a charger located at their home.

But for the first group, EV's are less combustible than gas vehicles (although EV fires are difficult to extinguish). EV's have extremely low maintenance costs because they never need air & oil filters, oil changes, tune ups, injector problems, exhaust system replacement, starters & solenoids, belts & hoses and of course, they never need gas. And they are so nice and quiet with no smelly, noisy exhaust!

People hated the horseless carriage when it first came on the scene. Gas stations used to be few and far and never open at night. When we traveled at night on vacations into Canada in the 50's & 60's, we had to carry extra gas with us. All this will change. Battery tech will improve, range will get longer & longer, reliable chargers will be as plentiful as gas pumps are now, and this generation who is stuck on old school vehicle technology will be dead & gone.

For every story about someone's bad experience with an EV there are a thousand good stories. The bad experiences are so rare & EV's so new that the media likes to focus on them. Bad experiences with gas powered vehicles are so common it's hardly news.

EV's are the future and for a lot of people, are the perfect vehicle.

In the future they will be powered with Dilithium Crystals.:D

[Byte1]

Good thread subject to talk about.Right now at this point in time the article made the point that the drivers are making less money with the electric rigs than with diesel rigs. OK, but let us NOT forget that electric vehicles are in their infancy compared to gas and diesel vehicles that are like OLD men. AT one point the driver had to drive about 30 miles out of his way to find a charger. That will certainly be improved in the next FEW years even without any technology improvement. It is hard to put a price on CLEAN air and quieter roads and quiet for the driver. CLEAN air certainly in the future will extend the useful lives of humans from fewer chest cancer problems and other health problems.
........Electric motors have the potential to have MUCH lower maintenance costs than the internal combustion engine. This will be a BIG factor in favor of E-vehicles in the future. With E-vehicles you are getting clean air and less maintenance. Anyway in 20 years there may be zero oil.

Sounds like excuses for a weak foundation for one's point of view.

[Byte1]

We are in a period of RAPID TECHNICAL CHANGES. One of which is from fossil fuel vehicles to electric vehicles. There are ALWAYS going to be IMPERFECTIONS in these types of changeovers. The changeover from horse-and-buggy to fossil fuel vehicles took many years and required many problems to be solved.

Hmm, more excuses?

[oldtimes]

Originally Posted by rsmurano:
We are decades away from making EVs a viable choice for a vehicle:
When the countries electrical infrastructure can handle the hundreds of millions of EVs charging on a daily basis;

If all autos were replaced by EVs tomorrow, the amount of electric would need to increase by about 25%. We have about 30 years before this will happen.

I believe that is decades :icon_wink:

[Normal]

Hydrogen will be the ultimate fuel source. Why even waste time with the polluting of batteries?

[biker1]

Yes, you would be correct. 30 years is approximately 3 decades ;-). Essentially, gas cars will still be sold, in numbers that matter, for another 10 years or so and they typically stay on the road for about 20 years so gas cars will pretty much disappear in 30 years. By 2030, probably about half of new cars sold will be EVs. In 2023, about 9% of new cars were EVs. There will still be collectors of gas cars but the number will be small enough not to matter in 30 years.

I believe that is decades :icon_wink:

[Byte1]

Hydrogen will be the ultimate fuel source. Why even waste time with the polluting of batteries?

Because Hydrogen can be produced by individual citizens, therefore not enough profit for big industry? Same with methane, I believe. Interesting how fuel sources that can be produced by individual citizens is not encouraged.

[biker1]

Distribution is the issue with hydrogen. If is a lot easier to install electric recharging stations than hydrogen refueling stations. There is a lot of DC fast charging infrastructure already deployed (for example, Tesla already has about 17,000 DC fast chargers in the US alone). Also, each garage is essentially an electric recharging station with typically only a minor modification for 240V if you so desire, or no modification if 120V provides fast enough charging.

Hydrogen will be the ultimate fuel source. Why even waste time with the polluting of batteries?

[biker1]

Producing hydrogen is not inexpensive and is typically done via electrolysis, which takes electricity. The last time I checked, people were encouraged to deploy solar panels.

Because Hydrogen can be produced by individual citizens, therefore not enough profit for big industry? Same with methane, I believe. Interesting how fuel sources that can be produced by individual citizens is not encouraged.

[Normal]

Distribution is the issue with hydrogen. If is a lot easier to install electric recharging stations than hydrogen refueling stations. There is a lot of DC fast charging infrastructure already deployed (for example, Tesla already has about 17,000 DC fast chargers in the US alone). Also, each garage is essentially an electric recharging station with typically only a minor modification for 240V if you so desire, or no modification if 120V provides fast enough charging.

No issue really. Just locally produce what is needed. A car can have its own hydrogen generator. It’s not like you would be driving around with a tank of hydrogen. The generator would manufacture as needed amounts.

[Bill14564]

No issue really. Just locally produce what is needed. A car can have its own hydrogen generator. It’s not like you would be driving around with a tank of hydrogen. The generator would manufacture as needed amounts.

Kind of like a perpetual motion machine? The car would use hydrogen to generate enough energy to both power the car and replenish the hydrogen it was using?

[biker1]

Hmmm, I didn’t see any emojis so I will assume you are serious? Are you suggesting the hydrogen be used in a fuel cell or burned as internal combustion fuel? Do you realize that hydrogen would typically be generated via electrolysis, which takes electricity? Where is the electricity coming from on the vehicle that is driving around making this hydrogen, a battery perhaps? Since generating hydrogen for a fuel cell makes no sense then I can only assume you want to burn it as internal combustion fuel. This is not nearly as efficient as using the electricity to drive an electric motor, which are very efficient.

No issue really. Just locally produce what is needed. A car can have its own hydrogen generator. It’s not like you would be driving around with a tank of hydrogen. The generator would manufacture as needed amounts.

[Normal]

Kind of like a perpetual motion machine? The car would use hydrogen to generate enough energy to both power the car and replenish the hydrogen it was using?

Every car would have start up. Once it’s running it doesn’t matter because you can manufacture at surplus amounts to energy.

[Normal]

Hmmm, I didn’t see any emojis so I will assume you are serious? Are you suggesting the hydrogen be used in a fuel cell or burned as internal combustion fuel? Do you realize that hydrogen would typically be generated via electrolysis, which takes electricity? Where is the electricity coming from on the vehicle that is driving around making this hydrogen, a battery perhaps? Since generating hydrogen for a fuel cell makes no sense then I can only assume you want to burn it as internal combustion fuel. This is not nearly as efficient as using the electricity to drive an electric motor, which are very efficient.
The standard generator. Wired armature, stator and rotation. The wheel base can hook up to any pulley system.

[Bill14564]

Every car would have start up. Once it’s running it doesn’t matter because you can manufacture at surplus amounts to energy.

So then you are proposing a perpetual motion machine where operating the machine produces a surplus of energy.

Put a small bottle or battery on the car to capture some of the surplus then use it to start the car the next time. Since your machine produces a surplus of energy, once the bottle or battery is filled you would be putting that surplus hydrogen back into the atmosphere.

[biker1]

As Bill14564 asked, a perpetual motion machine? Yeah, those don’t exist.


The standard generator. Wired armature, stator and rotation. The wheel base can hook up to any pulley system.

[Nellmack]

For 100 miles. :)

Correction: Better tech, faster, more fun to drive for (approx) 350 miles. :)

[Pugchief]

By 2030, probably about half of new cars sold will be EVs.

That may be what the Elites want, but I wouldn't bet on that happening. There has been tremendous consumer pushback and the manufacturers are losing so much money they are reducing output. Until/unless the perceived issues with EVs are eliminated, adoption will be very slow.

[Bill14564]

That may be what the Elites want, but I wouldn't bet on that happening. There has been tremendous consumer pushback and the manufacturers are losing so much money they are reducing output. Until/unless the perceived issues with EVs are eliminated, adoption will be very slow.

What do you consider consumer pushback? Some have dug in their heels and declared that since the current Admin is pushing EVs they would rather ride horses. Is that the "tremendous consumer pushback" you are referring to? Those "perceived issues" are political, not technical.

Others, like me, have looked at their automobile usage habits and recognized that an EV does not have the required capabilities at this time. That will change as the range of the vehicle is increased and the range of my vacations is decreased.

As for reducing output, that will not help the manufacturers stop losing money. The amount they are losing is tied to the low number of vehicles sold, not the numbers manufactured. The big money has already been spent to build the production lines, the amount added by a vehicle sitting in a showroom is peanuts.

[biker1]

Confirmation bias at work.

That may be what the Elites want, but I wouldn't bet on that happening. There has been tremendous consumer pushback and the manufacturers are losing so much money they are reducing output. Until/unless the perceived issues with EVs are eliminated, adoption will be very slow.

[Normal]

As Bill14564 asked, a perpetual motion machine? Yeah, those don’t exist.

No, it would have to refill with water after dilution

[Bill14564]

No, it would have to refill with water after dilution

This concept has been debunked. See wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car) or Popular Mechanics (https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3428/4271579/) for starting points.

Or, perhaps you prefer conspiracies (https://www.gaia.com/article/the-mysterious-death-of-stanley-meyer-and-his-water-powered-car)

[Normal]

This concept has been debunked. See wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car) or Popular Mechanics (https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3428/4271579/) for starting points.

Or, perhaps you prefer conspiracies (https://www.gaia.com/article/the-mysterious-death-of-stanley-meyer-and-his-water-powered-car)

I understand where you are coming from. Let’s just say we sit like the book,”I’m OK, Your Ok.”

[Pugchief]

What do you consider consumer pushback? Some have dug in their heels and declared that since the current Admin is pushing EVs they would rather ride horses. Is that the "tremendous consumer pushback" you are referring to? Those "perceived issues" are political, not technical.



While there may be some rejection solely on the basis of disagreeing with climate alarmist mandates, the perceived issues are not political:

-range anxiety
-slow recharging time
-lack of convenient public chargers
-concern over battery life

And I say this as the owner of 2 Teslas. EVs are great IF you can charge safely overnight at home and you don't drive more than 150 miles in an average day.

[Pugchief]

As for reducing output, that will not help the manufacturers stop losing money. The amount they are losing is tied to the low number of vehicles sold, not the numbers manufactured. The big money has already been spent to build the production lines, the amount added by a vehicle sitting in a showroom is peanuts.

Well you proved my point about consumer pushback right there. If they are not selling a lot of EVs, it can only be because consumers don't want them.

[Bill14564]

Well you proved my point about consumer pushback right there. If they are not selling a lot of EVs, it can only be because consumers don't want them.

I see a difference between choosing to not buy and choosing not to buy. One says, “that isn’t what I need/want’” and the other says, “I’m not buying regardless of whether it’s what I need or want.”

Right or wrong, I believe there is less of a pushback against EVs and more of a realization that they don’t meet my needs today. Tomorrow is a different day.

[biker1]

I believe it would be correct to say that the rate of increase of EVs sales has declined. The second derivative of sales. The rate of sales, the first derivative, is still increasing. For example, Tesla’s rate of sales increase has declined from 100% increase YoY in 2022 to about 50% increase YoY in 2023. This should not be a surprise as the rate of sales increase will decline with adoption. EVs were about 9% of new car sales in 2023 and will be higher in 2024. There are many new models coming available and virtually all manufacturers are “all in”.

Well you proved my point about consumer pushback right there. If they are not selling a lot of EVs, it can only be because consumers don't want them.

[nn0wheremann]

Exit tax… good luck with that once exited. :oops:
Illinois has an exit tax of sorts. It is a transfer tax paid by the seller of a home at closing. One last boot in the a**.

[Normal]

Illinois has an exit tax of sorts. It is a transfer tax paid by the seller of a home at closing. One last boot in the a**.


You know, one would think you could do an initial immigrant tax too. Then something dawns on the entire situation, “taxation without representation “ is not legal or at least not supported by courts.

[Pugchief]

I believe it would be correct to say that the rate of increase of EVs sales has declined. The second derivative of sales. The rate of sales, the first derivative, is still increasing. For example, Tesla’s rate of sales increase has declined from 100% increase YoY in 2022 to about 50% increase YoY in 2023. This should not be a surprise as the rate of sales increase will decline with adoption. EVs were about 9% of new car sales in 2023 and will be higher in 2024. There are many new models coming available and virtually all manufacturers are “all in”.

That is true. But Tesla is unique in that they make only EVs. The regular car manufacturers (GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc) are seeing extremely poor sales of their EVs. If you look at the non-Tesla numbers, thing look bleak.

[Pugchief]

Illinois has an exit tax of sorts. It is a transfer tax paid by the seller of a home at closing. One last boot in the a**.

Except you pay that tax whether you are leaving the state or just moving down the street.

And it is not a statewide tax. Each municipality has its own rules.

[biker1]

Do you have some numbers you can share? I don't expect 2024 will be a great year for GM as they struggle with engineering and cost issues but they are publicly saying they will produce 1 million EVs in 2025. Overall, I expect the percentage of new cars that are EVs in 2024 to exceed 2023.

That is true. But Tesla is unique in that they make only EVs. The regular car manufacturers (GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc) are seeing extremely poor sales of their EVs. If you look at the non-Tesla numbers, thing look bleak.

[Pugchief]

Do you have some numbers you can share? I don't expect 2024 will be a great year for GM as they struggle with engineering and cost issues but they are publicly saying they will produce 1 million EVs in 2025. Overall, I expect the percentage of new cars that are EVs in 2024 to exceed 2023.

For reference:
GM delays another major EV initiative (https://electrek.co/2023/12/13/gm-delaying-another-major-ev-initiative/)
GM and Honda ditch plan to build cheaper electric vehicles (https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/25/23931470/gm-honda-scrap-plan-build-cheaper-evs)
GM abandons plan to build 400,000 EVs by mid-2024 (https://www.automotivedive.com/news/gm-evs-abandons-plan-build-400000-mid-2024/697670/)
WSJ: GM Scales Back EV Plans as Buyers Hesitate (https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/general-motors-gm-q3-earnings-report-2023-5064f4c2)

[biker1]

Yes, GM has issues, I already mentioned that. They aren't, however, the only car manufacturer suppling EVs to the US. God help the big 3 if BYD starts importing cars into the US.

For reference:
GM delays another major EV initiative (https://electrek.co/2023/12/13/gm-delaying-another-major-ev-initiative/)
GM and Honda ditch plan to build cheaper electric vehicles (https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/25/23931470/gm-honda-scrap-plan-build-cheaper-evs)
GM abandons plan to build 400,000 EVs by mid-2024 (https://www.automotivedive.com/news/gm-evs-abandons-plan-build-400000-mid-2024/697670/)
WSJ: GM Scales Back EV Plans as Buyers Hesitate (https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/general-motors-gm-q3-earnings-report-2023-5064f4c2)

[NoMoSno]

Toyota Cuts Yearly EV Sales Forecast By 39% To Just 123,000 Units | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/toyota-cuts-yearly-ev-sales-forecast-by-39-to-just-123000-units/)

[biker1]

Toyota isn't a player, yet. A 39% reduction of a very small number is just a very smaller number.

Some estimates put the YoY EV growth in the US for 2024 at about 60% to about 13% of new cars being EVs up from about 8 or 9% in 2023.

Toyota Cuts Yearly EV Sales Forecast By 39% To Just 123,000 Units | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/toyota-cuts-yearly-ev-sales-forecast-by-39-to-just-123000-units/)

[Caymus]

Article claims EV's are 28% more expensive than gas vehicles. Will need much more governmental subsides to allow lower income people to purchase.

I have not seen a breakdown of EV/ICE ownership by income. I wonder if most EV owners live in homes with garages and the associated easy and lower cost charging.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/americas-plan-to-replace-gas-guzzlers-with-electric-cars-was-doomed-from-the-start/ar-AA1moUZR

[shut the front door]

Yes, GM has issues, I already mentioned that. They aren't, however, the only car manufacturer suppling EVs to the US. God help the big 3 if BYD starts importing cars into the US.

How about this letter to the President signed by 4000 auto dealership owners asking him to back off of the mandate because the EVs are sitting on their lots unsold? The 4000 are not all GM dealers, btw.

Dear Mr. President,

We are auto dealers from across the country who collectively sell every major brand in the U.S. We are small businesses employing thousands of Americans. We are deeply committed to the customers we serve and the communities where we operate, which is why we are asking you to slow down your proposed regulations mandating battery electric vehicle (BEV) production and distribution.

Your Administration has proposed regulations that would essentially mandate a dramatic shift to battery electric vehicles (BEVs), increasing year after year until 2032, when two out of every three vehicles sold in America would have to be battery electric.

Currently, there are many excellent battery electric vehicles available for consumers to purchase. These vehicles are ideal for many people, and we believe their appeal will grow over time. The reality, however, is that electric vehicle demand today is not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots.

Last year, there was a lot of hope and hype about EVs. Early adopters formed an initial line and were ready to buy these vehicles as soon as we had them to sell. But that enthusiasm has stalled. Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships -- even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.

While the goals of the regulations are admirable, they require consumer acceptance to become a reality. With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand. Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace.

Mr. President, no government agency, no think tank, and no polling firm knows more about the automobile customer than us. We talk to customers every day. As retail automotive dealerships, we are agnostic as to what we sell. Our business is to provide customers with vehicles that meet the needs of their budgets and lifestyles.

Some customers are in the market for electric vehicles, and we are thrilled to sell them. But the majority of customers are simply not ready to make the change. They are concerned about BEVs being unaffordable. Many do not have garages for home charging or easy access to public charging stations. Customers are also concerned about the loss of driving range in cold or hot weather. Some have long daily commutes and don’t have the extra time to charge the battery. Truck buyers are especially put off by the dramatic loss of range when towing. Today’s current technology is not adequate to support the needs of the majority of our consumers.

Many of these challenges can and will be addressed by our manufacturers, but many of these challenges are outside of their control. Reliable charging networks, electric grid stability, sourcing of materials, and many other issues need time to resolve. And finally, many people just want to make their own choice about what vehicle is right for them.

Mr. President, it is time to tap the brakes on the unrealistic government electric vehicle mandate. Allow time for the battery technology to advance. Allow time to make BEVs more affordable. Allow time to develop domestic sources for the minerals to make batteries. Allow time for the charging infrastructure to be built and prove reliable. And most of all, allow time for the American consumer to get comfortable with the technology and make the choice to buy an electric vehicle.

Sincerely,
Supporting Dealerships

[biker1]

Yeah, that is old news. Of course dealers don't like EVs - they are part of the increasing threat to their business model. I don't think you get it. Many (most?) automakers have announced that they are going to phase out ICE vehicles. Large capital expenditures have been made and will continue to be made for battery production, manufacturing, and mining/processing of required minerals. Recharging facilities are being built out. Many manufacturers have signed up for the NACS. CAFE standards have been set that force EVs to be made. Cash incentives are in place at the federal and state levels. The Federal Government and foreign governments are all in. Nine states have already announced bans on the sale of new gas vehicles in 2035. Many new EV models (many from GM) will be introduced in 2024. Think Blackberry when the iPhone and Android phones came out.

How about this letter to the President signed by 4000 auto dealership owners asking him to back off of the mandate because the EVs are sitting on their lots unsold? The 4000 are not all GM dealers, btw.

Dear Mr. President,

We are auto dealers from across the country who collectively sell every major brand in the U.S. We are small businesses employing thousands of Americans. We are deeply committed to the customers we serve and the communities where we operate, which is why we are asking you to slow down your proposed regulations mandating battery electric vehicle (BEV) production and distribution.

Your Administration has proposed regulations that would essentially mandate a dramatic shift to battery electric vehicles (BEVs), increasing year after year until 2032, when two out of every three vehicles sold in America would have to be battery electric.

Currently, there are many excellent battery electric vehicles available for consumers to purchase. These vehicles are ideal for many people, and we believe their appeal will grow over time. The reality, however, is that electric vehicle demand today is not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots.

Last year, there was a lot of hope and hype about EVs. Early adopters formed an initial line and were ready to buy these vehicles as soon as we had them to sell. But that enthusiasm has stalled. Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships -- even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.

While the goals of the regulations are admirable, they require consumer acceptance to become a reality. With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand. Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace.

Mr. President, no government agency, no think tank, and no polling firm knows more about the automobile customer than us. We talk to customers every day. As retail automotive dealerships, we are agnostic as to what we sell. Our business is to provide customers with vehicles that meet the needs of their budgets and lifestyles.

Some customers are in the market for electric vehicles, and we are thrilled to sell them. But the majority of customers are simply not ready to make the change. They are concerned about BEVs being unaffordable. Many do not have garages for home charging or easy access to public charging stations. Customers are also concerned about the loss of driving range in cold or hot weather. Some have long daily commutes and don’t have the extra time to charge the battery. Truck buyers are especially put off by the dramatic loss of range when towing. Today’s current technology is not adequate to support the needs of the majority of our consumers.

Many of these challenges can and will be addressed by our manufacturers, but many of these challenges are outside of their control. Reliable charging networks, electric grid stability, sourcing of materials, and many other issues need time to resolve. And finally, many people just want to make their own choice about what vehicle is right for them.

Mr. President, it is time to tap the brakes on the unrealistic government electric vehicle mandate. Allow time for the battery technology to advance. Allow time to make BEVs more affordable. Allow time to develop domestic sources for the minerals to make batteries. Allow time for the charging infrastructure to be built and prove reliable. And most of all, allow time for the American consumer to get comfortable with the technology and make the choice to buy an electric vehicle.

Sincerely,
Supporting Dealerships

[Topspinmo]

Was this an attempt at humor? First, implying that just bc ABC NBC CBS MSNBC CNN WaPo NYTimes haven't been sued, they must be telling the truth. LOL. All of the MSM lies, fabricates stories to fit their preferred narrative and gaslights their viewers.

As for CA, the size of their economy is mostly irrelevant. China and Russia have huge economies, but that doesn't mean you'd want to live there or that they are doing anything right. As someone else already pointed out, people are fleeing in droves. Not exactly an endorsement. If it's so great, why are they leaving? The weather is great tho.

I really hate saying this but you can add US to the China and Russia list

[Rainger99]

Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-123933213.html)

[biker1]

Hertz is selling 1/3 of their electric fleet.

Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-123933213.html)

[Caymus]

Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-123933213.html)

"Hertz will instead opt for gas-powered vehicles, it said on Thursday, citing higher expenses related to collision and damage for EVs"

I thought they were supposed to be safer and less expensive to repair.

[Bill14564]

"Hertz will instead opt for gas-powered vehicles, it said on Thursday, citing higher expenses related to collision and damage for EVs"

I thought they were supposed to be safer and less expensive to repair.

Where does the Hertz statement mention safety as a factor? I haven't looked for the statistics but I suspect they will show EVs are safer.

Who said it was less expensive to repair collision damage for EVs? Drivetrain maintenance costs are less for EVs. Electronics costs are higher for EVs. Collision damage costs are likely to be astronomical for EVs. Where did you see anything different?

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Where did you get either of those ideas?

Marketing, they will say anything these days as there is no fraud enforcement for BS.
Most likely the guy whose EVs were dumped on Hertz, who has a mouth which will say anything to promote himself.

and don't waste your electrons on trying to change my mind.

[Byte1]

You can't have a business without making a profit. Only the government gets away with having a deficit year after year, doesn't pay it's bills and manages to prove that Ponzi schemes can work for many decades without being held accountable. Hertz is smart to ditch an idea that is not yet ready for prime time.

[biker1]

Read post #111.

You can't have a business without making a profit. Only the government gets away with having a deficit year after year, doesn't pay it's bills and manages to prove that Ponzi schemes can work for many decades without being held accountable. Hertz is smart to ditch an idea that is not yet ready for prime time.

[Pugchief]

"Hertz will instead opt for gas-powered vehicles, it said on Thursday, citing higher expenses related to collision and damage for EVs"

I thought they were supposed to be safer and less expensive to repair.

I think you are confusing routine maintenance with collision damage.

The cost of maintaining an EV is lower bc there is virtually nothing to service. No oil changes, spark plugs, fuel lines, belts, etc. EVs have only brakes, tires and cabin filters to deal with, at roughly the same cost as other cars.

Collision damage is indeed more expensive to repair on an EV. No one ever stated otherwise. If you think they did in attempt to mislead anyone, please provide a link to the misinformation.

[Rainger99]

Used Teslas for under $20,000 with the tax credit.

Ex-Hertz Tesla Model 3s Cost as Little as $14,000. Would You Buy One? (https://www.yahoo.com/autos/ex-hertz-tesla-model-3s-150000091.html)

[Byte1]

I have never had or known of a battery powered torch or watch to catch fire either!

I've heard of lithium powered cell phones catching fire. Even now, there is a certain brand that gets pretty hot while charging.