Lithium Ion battery fire on cargo ship again, prevented from docking in Alaska

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Cargo ship carrying burning lithium-ion batteries reaches Alaska, but kept offshore | AP News (https://apnews.com/article/cargo-ship-fire-alaska-safety-precautions-38e7a4e5e882617d184eb73ec928814e)

Another vessel WAS on fire due to lithium ion battery fire while transporting EV's ...good news fire is out, but Alaska is refusing to allow it to dock...count on insurance companies raising rates >>

Lithium-ion Battery Fire in Cargo Ship's Hold Is Out, Coast Guard Says

After lithium-ion batteries burned in a large cargo ship's hold for a number of days, the U.S. Coast Guard said late Saturday that the fire was out and directed the ship to anchor near Dutch Harbor, Alaska.

The 19 crew members of the ship, Genius Star XI, were uninjured and technicians from the Salvage and Marine Firefighting team remain onboard to ensure the fire doesn't return, according to a Coast Guard press release.

“This protected anchorage ... will allow the vessel to remain stable, minimizing risk of any re-flash of the fire as we continue our response," Capt. Chris Culpepper said in the press release, which said an investigation into the fire's origins will begin once response efforts wrap up. Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://bloomberg.com/en/news/thp/2023-12-31/lithium-ion-battery-fire-in-a-cargo-ship-s-hold-is-out-after-several-days-of-burning)

[oldtimes]

It’s going to happen more and more until someone comes up with an effective way to put these fires out without tens of thousands of gallons of water.

[rustyp]

Using water to extinguish a lithium battery fire may seem like a logical solution, but it can actually make the situation much worse. When water comes into contact with a lithium battery fire, several dangerous reactions can occur. Google it for more. We had a fire at electric storage station up north this summer and the fire could not be extinguished and literally had to burn itself out over several days

[tophcfa]

Best way to extinguish a lithium fire is to grab a 6 pack, run far away upwind, and sip and watch. Wait, those things take a long time to go out, better grab a 12 pack and a sleeping bag.

[dtennent]

Water reacts with lithium therefore is a poor choice for putting out the fire. Systems need to be developed that will rapidly coat the fire with salt (sodium chloride)or sand. Basically, you need to remove oxygen or water from reaching the fire.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet

[Bill14564]

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet

A few million people (autos & carts combined) disagree and the statistics support them. But hey, buy what you like.

[Topspinmo]

A few million people (autos & carts combined) disagree and the statistics support them. But hey, buy what you like.

And the few million about all that want them or can afford them. Why sales is starting to tank.

[Bill14564]

And the few million about all that want them or can afford them. Why sales is starting to tank.

"want" and "can afford" have nothing to do with "safe enough"

[Chi-Town]

OP chumming the water with another lithium fire tale.

[Bill14564]

Water reacts with lithium therefore is a poor choice for putting out the fire. Systems need to be developed that will rapidly coat the fire with salt (sodium chloride)or sand. Basically, you need to remove oxygen or water from reaching the fire.

It looks like this is the wrong approach and could actually intensify the fire.

It seems lithium battery fires are self-sustaining, the fire actually generates enough oxygen to keep itself burning. Smothering it to keep external oxygen away won't stop it and insulating it with a heavy layer of sand would keep heat in and help keep the fire burning.

One of the serious problems with lithium battery fires is "thermal runaway." One cell becomes damaged and ignites which generates enough heat to damage the next cell and cause it to ignite. The only way to stop this is to remove the heat to keep the next cell from igniting. This is where water is useful.

A problem with electric car fires is the compartment that protects the batteries from damage is designed to be waterproof. It is difficult to get water onto the batteries because the car is designed to prevent water from reaching the batteries. Tens of thousands of gallons of water are needed because so little of the water actually reaches the batteries themselves.

A firefighting tool has been designed that may help. This tool from an Austrian company (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/11/new-firefighting-tool-delivers-water-directly-to-blazing-ev-batteries/) punctures the battery compartment and delivers water directly to the batteries. The claim is it will take only 1,000 to 2,000 gallons to cool the batteries and stop the fire. I haven't seen any articles about it being used in practice yet.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

OP chumming the water with another lithium fire tale.

:BigApplause:

distraction for the winter doldrums with technology hate porn, or helping out the web site owner with content for advertisers for web page views. .

[biker1]

EV sales in North America "only" increased by about 50% in 2023 (from 2022), down from about a 100% increase in 2022 (from 2021). The percentage increase in sales each year will drop as sales continue to grow. That is the nature of a disruptive technology on an "S" curve. For example, once you have 50% of the market it becomes difficult to increase sales by more than 10-20% per year. About 8% of car sales in 2023 were EVs. This figure may very well grow to 50% of car sales by 2030. Buy one or don't buy one but sales will continue to grow.

And the few million about all that want them or can afford them. Why sales is (sic) starting to tank.

[dhdallas]

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet

No more dangerous than your laptop computer, power tools, cell phone, e-book readers, electric toothbrushes, Bluetooth headphones/earpieces, digital cameras, game controllers, smart watches, key fobs and more that run on Lithium Ion batteries. The newer Lithium Ion Iron Phosphate (LFP or LiFePO4) batteries are even safer than the original Lithium Ion Cobalt batteries, hold their charge longer & have a longer lifespan. BTW, have you noticed that the golf cart fires in TV have all been gas powered carts? Lithium Ion battery fires are so rare that the press likes to focus on them just like they did with the rare cases of COVID deaths to young healthy people. The media loves a good fear-factor story! As for electric golf carts, I love mine as do everyone I know who has one.

[dhdallas]

Cargo ship carrying burning lithium-ion batteries reaches Alaska, but kept offshore | AP News (https://apnews.com/article/cargo-ship-fire-alaska-safety-precautions-38e7a4e5e882617d184eb73ec928814e)

Another vessel WAS on fire due to lithium ion battery fire while transporting EV's ...good news fire is out, but Alaska is refusing to allow it to dock...count on insurance companies raising rates >>

Lithium-ion Battery Fire in Cargo Ship's Hold Is Out, Coast Guard Says

After lithium-ion batteries burned in a large cargo ship's hold for a number of days, the U.S. Coast Guard said late Saturday that the fire was out and directed the ship to anchor near Dutch Harbor, Alaska.

The 19 crew members of the ship, Genius Star XI, were uninjured and technicians from the Salvage and Marine Firefighting team remain onboard to ensure the fire doesn't return, according to a Coast Guard press release.

“This protected anchorage ... will allow the vessel to remain stable, minimizing risk of any re-flash of the fire as we continue our response," Capt. Chris Culpepper said in the press release, which said an investigation into the fire's origins will begin once response efforts wrap up. Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://bloomberg.com/en/news/thp/2023-12-31/lithium-ion-battery-fire-in-a-cargo-ship-s-hold-is-out-after-several-days-of-burning)

Here we go, flaming the fear of Lithium battery fires! They are no more dangerous than your laptop computer, power tools, cell phone, e-book readers, electric toothbrushes, Bluetooth headphones/earpieces, digital cameras, game controllers, smart watches, key fobs and more that run on Lithium Ion batteries. The newer Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are even safer than the original Lithium Cobalt batteries, hold their charge longer & have a longer lifespan. BTW, have you noticed that the golf cart fires in TV have all been gas powered carts? Lithium Ion battery fires are so rare that the press likes to focus on them just like they did with the rare cases of COVID deaths to young healthy people. The media loves a good fear-factor story!

[MorTech]

The only real way to put out a lithium fire is with super-cold salt water...Could they not find any? :)

[ThirdOfFive]

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet
From what I was able to gather, you are correct. The unfortunate thing is that Lithium-ion powered vehicles are media and environmentalist darlings, and as such are pretty well insulated against much of anything being said to tarnish that image.

The NTSB website has an interesting article (Safety Risks to Emergency Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles) on the dangers that lithium-ion battery fires can pose to first responders, which of course means that uneducated consumers experiencing such a fire are a whole lot more at-risk than assumedly-trained first responders. There is a very real risk of dangerous or even deadly electric shock to those dealing with the fire, as well as something that the article terms "thermal runaway", where the process of combustion of the battery produces situations and conditions that exacerbate the danger to the area.

The Miami Herald ran an article this morning dealing with this subject (Electric Vehicles and the Untold Secret: Are They Actually Worse For The Environment and More Dangerous Than Gas?). One of the dangers is that a burning lithium-ion battery produces hydrogen gas at a rapid rate, which is itself extremely flammable (remember the Hindenburg). Hydrogen gas is rated as a 4 on the NFPA 704's flammability scale, which is the highest rating possible, because it can combust in even small amounts of ordinary air.

But the dangers to people dealing with a lithium-ion battery is only part of the story. The Miami Herald article pointed several things that I was completely unaware of. First, the environmental impact of the mining for battery materials. Earth.org points this out: "the extraction methods for lithium and cobalt can be very energy intensive – leading to air and water pollution, land degradation, and potential for groundwater contamination". But that is not the only environmental danger. The Herald article also points out that the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries itself is a large contributor of pollution due to the use of fossil fuels (coal and natural gas). But the danger to the environment doesn't stop with the manufacture of the batteries. It takes 100 years for a lithium-ion battery to decompose after use, releasing toxic substances into the environment all the while.

Seems as if our Cinderella needs a little more cleaning up before the big ball.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

From what I was able to gather, you are correct. The unfortunate thing is that Lithium-ion powered vehicles are media and environmentalist darlings, and as such are pretty well insulated against much of anything being said to tarnish that image.

The NTSB website has an interesting article (Safety Risks to Emergency Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles) on the dangers that lithium-ion battery fires can pose to first responders, which of course means that uneducated consumers experiencing such a fire are a whole lot more at-risk than assumedly-trained first responders. There is a very real risk of dangerous or even deadly electric shock to those dealing with the fire, as well as something that the article terms "thermal runaway", where the process of combustion of the battery produces situations and conditions that exacerbate the danger to the area.

The Miami Herald ran an article this morning dealing with this subject (Electric Vehicles and the Untold Secret: Are They Actually Worse For The Environment and More Dangerous Than Gas?). One of the dangers is that a burning lithium-ion battery produces hydrogen gas at a rapid rate, which is itself extremely flammable (remember the Hindenburg). Hydrogen gas is rated as a 4 on the NFPA 704's flammability scale, which is the highest rating possible, because it can combust in even small amounts of ordinary air. Hydrogen possesses the NFPA 704's highest rating of 4 on the flammability scale because it is flammable when mixed even in small amounts with ordinary air.

But the dangers to people dealing with a lithium-ion battery is only part of the story. The Miami Herald article pointed several things that I was completely unaware of. First, the environmental impact of the mining for battery materials. Earth.org points this out: "the extraction methods for lithium and cobalt can be very energy intensive – leading to air and water pollution, land degradation, and potential for groundwater contamination". But that is not the only environmental danger. The Herald article also points out that the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries itself is a large contributor of pollution due to the use of fossil fuels (coal and natural gas). But the danger to the environment doesn't stop with the manufacture of the batteries. It takes 100 years for a lithium-ion battery to decompose after use, releasing toxic substances into the environment all the while.

Seems as if our Cinderella needs a little more cleaning up before the big ball.

:beer3:

[oldtimes]

From what I was able to gather, you are correct. The unfortunate thing is that Lithium-ion powered vehicles are media and environmentalist darlings, and as such are pretty well insulated against much of anything being said to tarnish that image.

The NTSB website has an interesting article (Safety Risks to Emergency Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles) on the dangers that lithium-ion battery fires can pose to first responders, which of course means that uneducated consumers experiencing such a fire are a whole lot more at-risk than assumedly-trained first responders. There is a very real risk of dangerous or even deadly electric shock to those dealing with the fire, as well as something that the article terms "thermal runaway", where the process of combustion of the battery produces situations and conditions that exacerbate the danger to the area.

The Miami Herald ran an article this morning dealing with this subject (Electric Vehicles and the Untold Secret: Are They Actually Worse For The Environment and More Dangerous Than Gas?). One of the dangers is that a burning lithium-ion battery produces hydrogen gas at a rapid rate, which is itself extremely flammable (remember the Hindenburg). Hydrogen gas is rated as a 4 on the NFPA 704's flammability scale, which is the highest rating possible, because it can combust in even small amounts of ordinary air.

But the dangers to people dealing with a lithium-ion battery is only part of the story. The Miami Herald article pointed several things that I was completely unaware of. First, the environmental impact of the mining for battery materials. Earth.org points this out: "the extraction methods for lithium and cobalt can be very energy intensive – leading to air and water pollution, land degradation, and potential for groundwater contamination". But that is not the only environmental danger. The Herald article also points out that the manufacture of lithium-ion batteries itself is a large contributor of pollution due to the use of fossil fuels (coal and natural gas). But the danger to the environment doesn't stop with the manufacture of the batteries. It takes 100 years for a lithium-ion battery to decompose after use, releasing toxic substances into the environment all the while.

Seems as if our Cinderella needs a little more cleaning up before the big ball.

According to Firehouse Magazine there is also a new concern for parking garage collapse since they reach extreme temperatures and burn for hours:

“Further, the temperatures of fires that involve internal combustion engines can reach 1,500 degrees F; temperatures of fires that involve EVs can reach 4,500 degrees F and hotter. The temperature of an EV fire is a major concern for parking garages.
When concrete is exposed to temperatures that are hotter than 212 degrees F, the moisture in concrete turns to steam. If the temperature rises more rapidly than the steam can escape through the concrete matrix, the rising pressures exceed the strength of the concrete, and it begins to spall. This spalling can be explosive in extreme cases and can cause major damage, including collapse.”

[Bill14564]

According to Firehouse Magazine there is also a new concern for parking garage collapse since they reach extreme temperatures and burn for hours:

...

Then it's a good thing EV fires are rare. (25 EV fires per 100,000 cars compared to 1,500 ICE fires per 100,000 cars. 52 EV fires per YEAR compared to 300 ICE fires PER DAY)

[oldtimes]

Then it's a good thing EV fires are rare. (25 EV fires per 100,000 cars compared to 1,500 ICE fires per 100,000 cars. 52 EV fires per YEAR compared to 300 ICE fires PER DAY)

But just one EV fire can create catastrophic damage, as opposed to the ICE fires that can be put out in minutes.

[Bill14564]

But just one EV fire can create catastrophic damage, as opposed to the ICE fires that can be put out in minutes.

You might want to look into the recent parking garage fire at the airport in the UK. Likely started in a diesel vehicle. Reports are the entire structure will need to be demolished and rebuilt. Seems somewhat catastrophic.

Some will be waiting for that catastrophic EV fire to say, "I told you so." Others will feel that the millions(?) of vehicles on the road that have never caused any damage, catastrophic or otherwise, are evidence that the technology is safe.

[oldtimes]

You might want to look into the recent parking garage fire at the airport in the UK. Likely started in a diesel vehicle. Reports are the entire structure will need to be demolished and rebuilt. Seems somewhat catastrophic.

Some will be waiting for that catastrophic EV fire to say, "I told you so." Others will feel that the millions(?) of vehicles on the road that have never caused any damage, catastrophic or otherwise, are evidence that the technology is safe.

A house in my neighborhood had a lithium scooter fire in the garage. The whole house was lost before they could get the fire out. Less fire but more damage or more fires but less damage. Just a matter of picking your poison.

[MrChip72]

which is why i won't buy a lithium ion battery golf cart. . . .
battery technology is not safe enough yet

You don't own a smartphone or laptop?

[frayedends]

My wife’s client just had a drill battery catch fire while charging. He wasn’t home but luckily it didn’t burn the house down. I now take my batteries off the charger once they are done charging.

[Dusty_Star]

A house in my neighborhood had a lithium scooter fire in the garage. The whole house was lost before they could get the fire out. Less fire but more damage or more fires but less damage. Just a matter of picking your poison.

There has also been a rash of electric bike fires in New York City apartments. Bike riders frequently bring their bikes inside to prevent theft. I've seen mention of 220 fires & six deaths in NYC apartments from e-bikes. CONSUMER ALERT: Attorney General James Provides Tips to Protect New Yorkers from E-Bike Battery Fires (https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2023/consumer-alert-attorney-general-james-provides-tips-protect-new-yorkers-e-bike#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20there%20were%20at,and% 20resulted%20in%2013%20deaths).

[Normal]

A few million people (autos & carts combined) disagree and the statistics support them. But hey, buy what you like.

And several million more that stayed away from them and purchased gas powered instead

[Bill14564]

And several million more stayed away from them and purchased gas powered instead

focus, focus, ...

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Likely started in a diesel vehicle.

diesel in and of itself can't spontaneously combust, and is not subject to ignition below the flashpoint temp of approximately 130 degrees F /

the fuel type of the car in this case does not exonerate the battery, though still waiting on the fire report, which mostly likely won't be published but will have to be retrieved.

[Bill14564]

diesel in and of itself can't spontaneously combust, and is not subject to ignition below the flashpoint temp of approximately 130 degrees F /

the fuel type of the car in this case does not exonerate the battery, though still waiting on the fire report, which mostly likely won't be published but will have to be retrieved.

Neither gasoline nor lithium batteries spontaneously combust either. Clearly, there was some form of ignition.

From one article:

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said. “It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification.”

The Daily Mail reported that the fire started under the hood of a Range Rover diesel, caused by an electric fault or fuel line leak.

I believe in another thread I posted information that the engine choices for a Range Rover hybrid do not include diesel. Therefore, being a diesel-fueled Range Rover exonerates lithium auto batteries. Now, if you are suggesting that lead acid batteries present an unacceptable risk of fire....

[rustyp]

[QUOTE=Bill14564;2287195]Neither gasoline nor lithium batteries spontaneously combust either. Clearly, there was some form of ignition.


Minimize the Risk of Lithium-Ion Battery Spontaneously Combust
As the above mention, if the battery is exposed to high temperature, or the battery or internal components are damaged, the risk of fire or explosion will increase. There are several ways you can reduce the risk of an accident.Sometimes, lithium car battery can also play an important role.

Avoid storage at high temperatures.
When the battery is close to the heat source, the flammable electrolyte inside the deep cycle battery will cause a fire. The battery is easy to overheat and cause electrolyte evaporation. The evaporation produces combustible steam, and if the temperatures continues to rise, these steam will ignite. Do not put the batteries in hot vehicles. Don’t let the blanket cover the notebook computer.Sometimes, the lithium battery price is also a very important factor.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Now, if you are suggesting that lead acid batteries present an unacceptable risk of fire....

I believe in one of my other "batteries catch fire" posts I posted a video and article where the lead acid auto batteries did catch fire and burned the vehicles beyond usefulness, with not other ignition source.

All auto batteries are capable of creating a fire, the different battery types each has different scenarios under which they will start to burn.

for most if not all batteries, the size, intensity and duration of the fire is directly proportional to the size of the battery.

[ThirdOfFive]

I believe in one of my other "batteries catch fire" posts I posted a video and article where the lead acid auto batteries did catch fire and burned the vehicles beyond usefulness, with not other ignition source.

All auto batteries are capable of creating a fire, the different battery types each has different scenarios under which they will start to burn.

for most if not all batteries, the size, intensity and duration of the fire is directly proportional to the size of the battery.
Conventional lead-acid batteries have their dangers, for sure. For one thing they produce hydrogen. I worked in a garage while in College and witnessed a couple of times when a careless tech caused an electrical spark when disconnecting a battery charger on a battery in a customer's vehicle, causing quite an explosion, ruining the battery and getting acid on the tech as well as on parts of the customer's engine. A quick hose job (car and tech) meant that no damage was done other than to the battery, which the garage replaced at no charge. A battery installed incorrectly, or one that is too small for the called-for application, is dangerous as well. They can shift position when the car is in motion (especially in hard turns, stops, etc.) and conceivably cause a spark if the positive terminal contacts metal. Our Rav4 was recalled for that possibility only a few days ago.

But lead-acid batteries themselves don't burn. They merely cause gas (hydrogen) that does. A lead-acid battery is just that: lead, an electrolyte (sulfuric acid) and a plastic housing. Lead and acid don't themselves burn. I suppose the battery case could, but as far as I know that is just plastic that is impervious to sulfuric acid. Lithium-ion batteries on the other hand are far more dangerous if ignited. For one thing they contain lithium, a lot of lithium (11% of the total battery composition is lithium) and any high-school sophomore knows that putting pure lithium in water can have some memorable results. I know. We tried it, tossing a small piece of lithium ribbon into a lab sinkful of water. Quite the kaboom. Got into a little hot water for that trick but no permanent damage was done. They also contain cobalt (5%-10%) and while solid cobalt isn't combustible, finely divided cobalt can spontaneously combust when exposed to air. Finally, a lead-acid battery produces only one combustible substance: hydrogen. A lithium-ion battery on the other hand, when burning, produces a gas mixture generated and released which "is flammable, consisting of various mixtures of hydrogen, carbon-monoxide, carbon-dioxide and various hydrocarbons including methane and propane. Ignition of these gases result in fire and explosion scenarios that pose a significant risk to surrounding life and property." (osti.gov)

[shaw8700@outlook.com]

Best way to extinguish a lithium fire is to grab a 6 pack, run far away upwind, and sip and watch. Wait, those things take a long time to go out, better grab a 12 pack and a sleeping bag.

But the owners of them are doing great things for the environment - wrong!

[Byte1]

:1rotfl: :boom: