Under estimated the growth of golf

[Papa_lecki]

There have been many discussions here over the years saying golf is a dying sport.

There are also many discussions (active now) asking about driving ranges and additional executive courses in TV. An interesting data point is that off course golf (i.e.. simulators and TopGolf) is a top 10 sport in the US.

It seems to me, the one thing the developer mis read was the growth of golf, especially post COVID. Golf is not dying, exactly the opposite. It takes a long lead time to plan and develop the areas and insert any golf amenity.

Some data points

The sport had a direct economic impact of $102 billion in the United States in 2022 - an increase of 20% from 2016.

Golf has seen millions of new golfers.

• Nine straight years of two million beginners
• The last three years have seen three million beginners

Juniors are the fastest-growing cohort.

• 3.4 million juniors played in 2022
• 900,000 new juniors in the last three years

And golf is one of the most popular recreational sports in America.

• On-course golf ranks 5th with 25.7 million
• Off-course golf ranks 7th with 15.5 million

[It's Hot There]

& the point of your after-the-fact Google searches.

golf was on the decline from 07 to 17.........The Villages planning period.

[Altavia]

& the point of your after-the-fact Google searches.

golf was on the decline from 07 to 17.........The Villages planning period.

It's been shown many times there's plenty of available golf, just not at the popular times or for large groups.

[Papa_lecki]

It's been shown many times there's plenty of available golf, just not at the popular times or for large groups.

The Villages also has plenty of breakfast restaurants, but you only can get a reservation at 5PM.

The growth re-started in 2016/2017, pre COVID - 6 or 7 years ago, have we seen a pivot? (EDIT, fixed the typo)
I think the pitch and puts are a good thing. There are a lot of new championship and executive holes coming on line in the next year or two.

I get the business purpose of not opening courses until the population can support them financially (green fees for championships and amenity fees for executives). .

[TSO/ISPF]

It's been shown many times there's plenty of available golf, just not at the popular times or for large groups.

Do you have that chart for the state of Florida. How many rounds of golf by state over the years would be an interesting data point, especially by month of the year.:gc:

[Gpsma]

I believe stock market pros call that the dead cat bounce

[ThirdOfFive]

I think that golf, popularity (or not) notwithstanding, is definitely a niche sport; that niche being primarily Caucasians with ample time on their hands and money (sometimes, a lot of money) to throw at their hobby for things like green fees, satisfactory equipment and in many cases, lessons. Tiger Woods did a lot to change that, but IMO golf is still seen as a rich old white guy sport.

[Laker14]

The Villages also has plenty of breakfast restaurants, but you only can get a reservation at 5PM.

The growth re-started in 2026/2017, pre COVID - 6 or 7 years ago, have we seen a pivot?
I think the pitch and puts are a good thing. There are a lot of new championship and executive holes coming on line in the next year or two.

I get the business purpose of not opening courses until the population can support them financially (green fees for championships and amenity fees for executives). .

ahh...2026,,, must have been a good year. I can't remember any of it.

[MrFlorida]

Come back in the summer, no problems getting a T time then....

[BrianL99]

It's been shown many times there's plenty of available golf, just not at the popular times or for large groups.

There are some folks on here, I hardly ever agree with.

That said, the above is 100% accurate.

The Villages has more than sufficient golf for it's population. The problem seems to be the entitled attitude of golfers.

I play golf at least 5 times/week. I play the courses I want to play, when I want to play them (Championship only). I have never, ever had a problem booking a golf time, within 30 minutes of my desired time and never had to drop to 3rd on my list of course preference.

As noted, you can't expect to book a group of 20-30 players, during prime time, in primed season.

Most every private country club in the world, limits "guests" during prime time. Most every private country club, limits "group" bookings in prime time.

Having been in TV for 3 years and having spent 30+ years around golf clubs, both as a member and in management, it's perfectly clear to me, what the problem is in TV. "Entitlement" and "groups".

Groups are the biggest pain in the butt in the golf world. They play slow, they all have a habit of putting their slowest players in the last group and they drive Starters crazy, with switching around players/foursomes.

In my opinion, if you want to book a group with more than 1 foursome, you should be relegated to non-prime time during peak season. Before 9-10 am or after 2 pm. That's how it works in country clubs around the USA, why do Villagers think they're special and expect more than you can get in the real world.

Per capita, The Villages has more golf courses than any state in the USA. Per capita, it has more "holes" of golf, than the most prolific golf area in the USA (Naples area).

Golf Courses Per Capita - GolfBlogger Golf Blog (https://golfblogger.com/golf_courses_per_capita/)

Just a moment... (https://www.curated.com/journal/334000/us-golf-destinations-with-the-most-courses-per-capita)

[kkingston57]

There have been many discussions here over the years saying golf is a dying sport.

There are also many discussions (active now) asking about driving ranges and additional executive courses in TV. An interesting data point is that off course golf (i.e.. simulators and TopGolf) is a top 10 sport in the US.

It seems to me, the one thing the developer mis read was the growth of golf, especially post COVID. Golf is not dying, exactly the opposite. It takes a long lead time to plan and develop the areas and insert any golf amenity.

Some data points

The sport had a direct economic impact of $102 billion in the United States in 2022 - an increase of 20% from 2016.

Golf has seen millions of new golfers.

• Nine straight years of two million beginners
• The last three years have seen three million beginners

Juniors are the fastest-growing cohort.

• 3.4 million juniors played in 2022
• 900,000 new juniors in the last three years

And golf is one of the most popular recreational sports in America.

• On-course golf ranks 5th with 25.7 million
• Off-course golf ranks 7th with 15.5 million

Covid did make a difference. In another recent study Millennial's have become less interested in sports as opposed to the boomers. Love golf but in the short term, developer probably that golf demand was going to be low and would stay low. bet long term they are right.

[JoMar]

I think that golf, popularity (or not) notwithstanding, is definitely a niche sport; that niche being primarily Caucasians with ample time on their hands and money (sometimes, a lot of money) to throw at their hobby for things like green fees, satisfactory equipment and in many cases, lessons. Tiger Woods did a lot to change that, but IMO golf is still seen as a rich old white guy sport.

So how would you catagorize basketball, baseball, tennis. I'm sure you can find a bin for them.

[JGibson]

There are some folks on here, I hardly ever agree with.

That said, the above is 100% accurate.

The Villages has more than sufficient golf for it's population. The problem seems to be the entitled attitude of golfers.

I play golf at least 5 times/week. I play the courses I want to play, when I want to play them (Championship only). I have never, ever had a problem booking a golf time, within 30 minutes of my desired time and never had to drop to 3rd on my list of course preference.

As noted, you can't expect to book a group of 20-30 players, during prime time, in primed season.

Most every private country club in the world, limits "guests" during prime time. Most every private country club, limits "group" bookings in prime time.

Having been in TV for 3 years and having spent 30+ years around golf clubs, both as a member and in management, it's perfectly clear to me, what the problem is in TV. "Entitlement" and "groups".

Groups are the biggest pain in the butt in the golf world. They play slow, they all have a habit of putting their slowest players in the last group and they drive Starters crazy, with switching around players/foursomes.

In my opinion, if you want to book a group with more than 1 foursome, you should be relegated to non-prime time during peak season. Before 9-10 am or after 2 pm. That's how it works in country clubs around the USA, why do Villagers think they're special and expect more than you can get in the real world.

Per capita, The Villages has more golf courses than any state in the USA. Per capita, it has more "holes" of golf, than the most prolific golf area in the USA (Naples area).

Golf Courses Per Capita - GolfBlogger Golf Blog (https://golfblogger.com/golf_courses_per_capita/)

Just a moment... (https://www.curated.com/journal/334000/us-golf-destinations-with-the-most-courses-per-capita)

The issue isn't the Championship it's the executive courses.

The one that is supposed to be included in your ammenties. I don't think they're being entitled when they pay for it every month yet during the winter have such a hard time even getting tee times for a foursome.

As a solution oriented person I just go out as a single in Jan-Mar and resume my foursomes and clubs tee times come late March.

[justjim]

The issue isn't the Championship it's the executive courses.

The one that is supposed to be included in your ammenties. I don't think they're being entitled when they pay for it every month yet during the winter have such a hard time even getting tee times for a foursome.

As a solution oriented person I just go out as a single in Jan-Mar and resume my foursomes and clubs tee times come late March.

I agree tee times are a problem especially if you don’t know the “ends and outs” of the golf tee system. A single golfer can easily play four or five times a week on the executive courses during the winter months. Large groups are different. During winter months break up your large group into eight players (some four) and then by the number of times golfers have played. It takes a little more time but you can get most players on that way. For those that want to play more they can go out as singles or doubles.

[Gpsma]

Pickleball is growing, golf is dying.

[MrChip72]

Golf is declining slightly overall. I definitely see it "up north" where at least a dozen courses that I used to play have been turned into residential subdivisions.

Number of golf courses and country clubs US 2022 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1175381/golf-courses-country-clubs-market-size/)

The golf simulators are extremely popular though. I know some Millennials that are into golf and they prefer the simulators since they can go out and play a round after work when it's pitch black outside and you can easily get a round of 18 with two people done in just over 90 minutes and only pay $20/hour to play.

[BrianL99]

Golf is declining slightly overall. I definitely see it "up north" where at least a dozen courses that I used to play have been turned into residential subdivisions.

Number of golf courses and country clubs US 2022 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1175381/golf-courses-country-clubs-market-size/)

The golf simulators are extremely popular though. I know some Millennials that are into golf and they prefer the simulators since they can go out and play a round after work when it's pitch black outside and you can easily get a round of 18 with two people done in just over 90 minutes and only pay $20/hour to play.

This is the NEW golf.

Golf courses are becoming obsolete, although I'm not sure there are any quality facilities at $20/Hour.


Coming to a Simulator Near You (https://www.mondayq.com/posts/coming-to-a-simulator-near-you)

Next Tour FAQ (https://www.mondayq.com/posts/next-tour-faq)

Has TopGolf Helped Boost Golf'''s Popularity? (https://www.northco.com/blog/has-topgolf-helped-boost-golfs-popularity)

[golfing eagles]

I think that golf, popularity (or not) notwithstanding, is definitely a niche sport; that niche being primarily Caucasians with ample time on their hands and money (sometimes, a lot of money) to throw at their hobby for things like green fees, satisfactory equipment and in many cases, lessons. Tiger Woods did a lot to change that, but IMO golf is still seen as a rich old white guy sport.

So what? Is there a point there?

[MrChip72]

This is the NEW golf.

Golf courses are becoming obsolete, although I'm not sure there are any quality facilities at $20/Hour.


The $20/hour ones that I've seen are unmanned and open 24 hours. You have to sign up for a 10 hour package to get the $20 rate.

[westernrider75]

There are some folks on here, I hardly ever agree with.

That said, the above is 100% accurate.

The Villages has more than sufficient golf for it's population. The problem seems to be the entitled attitude of golfers.

I play golf at least 5 times/week. I play the courses I want to play, when I want to play them (Championship only). I have never, ever had a problem booking a golf time, within 30 minutes of my desired time and never had to drop to 3rd on my list of course preference.

As noted, you can't expect to book a group of 20-30 players, during prime time, in primed season.

Most every private country club in the world, limits "guests" during prime time. Most every private country club, limits "group" bookings in prime time.

Having been in TV for 3 years and having spent 30+ years around golf clubs, both as a member and in management, it's perfectly clear to me, what the problem is in TV. "Entitlement" and "groups".

Groups are the biggest pain in the butt in the golf world. They play slow, they all have a habit of putting their slowest players in the last group and they drive Starters crazy, with switching around players/foursomes.

In my opinion, if you want to book a group with more than 1 foursome, you should be relegated to non-prime time during peak season. Before 9-10 am or after 2 pm. That's how it works in country clubs around the USA, why do Villagers think they're special and expect more than you can get in the real world.

Per capita, The Villages has more golf courses than any state in the USA. Per capita, it has more "holes" of golf, than the most prolific golf area in the USA (Naples area).

Golf Courses Per Capita - GolfBlogger Golf Blog (https://golfblogger.com/golf_courses_per_capita/)

Just a moment... (https://www.curated.com/journal/334000/us-golf-destinations-with-the-most-courses-per-capita)

I’m pretty certain the average golfer in The Villages does not desire or have the funds to play the championship courses 5 times per week, probably why you can get your desired tee times.

[asianthree]

I’m pretty certain the average golfer in The Villages does not desire or have the funds to play the championship courses 5 times per week, probably why you can get your desired tee times.

At lowest $$ courses with cost changes during high season and summer, faithfully playing 5 days a week 52weeks a year around $13,000 give or take few dollars. Many live for golf as their only entertainment. My guess is 60-70% have the entertainment funds of $10,000 and up. Probably choose not to throw it all in one basket.

I do know many who play 2 executives a day, averaging 4-7 days a week. No extra funds needed except for trail fees. Most of our circle plays championship 3 days a week. Not because of money issues just lack of time, and weather

[Black Beauty]

Convert some tennis courts to pickelball

[Marathon Man]

I don't understand why yet another thread was started on this. In case some didn't hear about it - Additional golf courses are currently under construction. Lots of new holes will be open.

[SHIBUMI]

Went to the ER recently, they said the majority of injuries in the Villages is from playing pickle ball. Golf injuries fell behind bocci, hacky sack, shuffleboard, and knitting class. Picklers may need to drop back to Ping Pong, its smaller version, to stay healthy.

[SHIBUMI]

Simulators are not real golf. Its millennials wanting anything technology that you can drink more to. And they will be successful like top golf. Its good though as it keeps these folks off the real golf courses.

[Topspinmo]

At end of day the villages have plenty of golf. When you advertise something for free you get lot of cheapskates.

[Topspinmo]

Convert some tennis courts to pickelball

Covert some golf courses to apartments.

[Topspinmo]

I’m pretty certain the average golfer in The Villages does not desire or have the funds to play the championship courses 5 times per week, probably why you can get your desired tee times.

Nor the skill.

[Topspinmo]

So what? Is there a point there?

Yep, plenty of golf in villages.

[Topspinmo]

Went to the ER recently, they said the majority of injuries in the Villages is from playing pickle ball. Golf injuries fell behind bocci, hacky sack, shuffleboard, and knitting class. Picklers may need to drop back to Ping Pong, its smaller version, to stay healthy.

Well, if out of shape and over weight tiddlywinks might be injury issue?

[asianthree]

Nor the skill.

Please, 98% of golfers anywhere, has reduced skill ability after each decade, sometimes every year.

My dad was scratch golfer in his younger days, once he hit 60s no longer the case. Some in TV may or may not had skill prior to living here. Those who had game, will probably not improve, but continue to loose skill. Distance, eyesight, health and so on.

But even if they aren’t up to the Skill level you are looking for, I love playing with that 90yo. Always grateful for each day, they can play, rarely have excuses when they don’t play well.

[kkingston57]

Come back in the summer, no problems getting a T time then....

But harder than in the Phoenix/Scottsdale Az area. Can get on 5 star courses for very good prices. In Florida(except Orlando/Disney area) 5 star courses are private

[kkingston57]

There are some folks on here, I hardly ever agree with.

That said, the above is 100% accurate.

The Villages has more than sufficient golf for it's population. The problem seems to be the entitled attitude of golfers.

I play golf at least 5 times/week. I play the courses I want to play, when I want to play them (Championship only). I have never, ever had a problem booking a golf time, within 30 minutes of my desired time and never had to drop to 3rd on my list of course preference.

As noted, you can't expect to book a group of 20-30 players, during prime time, in primed season.

Most every private country club in the world, limits "guests" during prime time. Most every private country club, limits "group" bookings in prime time.

Having been in TV for 3 years and having spent 30+ years around golf clubs, both as a member and in management, it's perfectly clear to me, what the problem is in TV. "Entitlement" and "groups".

Groups are the biggest pain in the butt in the golf world. They play slow, they all have a habit of putting their slowest players in the last group and they drive Starters crazy, with switching around players/foursomes.

In my opinion, if you want to book a group with more than 1 foursome, you should be relegated to non-prime time during peak season. Before 9-10 am or after 2 pm. That's how it works in country clubs around the USA, why do Villagers think they're special and expect more than you can get in the real world.

Per capita, The Villages has more golf courses than any state in the USA. Per capita, it has more "holes" of golf, than the most prolific golf area in the USA (Naples area).



Golf Courses Per Capita - GolfBlogger Golf Blog (https://golfblogger.com/golf_courses_per_capita/)

Just a moment... (https://www.curated.com/journal/334000/us-golf-destinations-with-the-most-courses-per-capita)

Good points. In addition there are less good tee times in Central Florida(as opposed to S. Florida) due to colder temps. Very few people in TV want to play early on colder/colder days. Live on a GC and on cold morning days nobody out there. Developer might think about reduced prices in the early morning hours(reverse of what they do in the summertime) A few players out there at lessened price is better than 0 players

[TomSpasm]

I think that golf, popularity (or not) notwithstanding, is definitely a niche sport; that niche being primarily Caucasians with ample time on their hands and money (sometimes, a lot of money) to throw at their hobby for things like green fees, satisfactory equipment and in many cases, lessons. Tiger Woods did a lot to change that, but IMO golf is still seen as a rich old white guy sport.

You've obviously never been to California. I've been on a range there where I was the only white guy. Everyone else was Asian.

[Laker14]

I’m pretty certain the average golfer in The Villages does not desire or have the funds to play the championship courses 5 times per week, probably why you can get your desired tee times.

Nor the skill.

No special skill is required to play 7 days a week. Just need money and an insatiable appetite for frustration.

[Laker14]

At end of day the villages have plenty of golf. When you advertise something for free you get lot of cheapskates.

No truer words were ever spoken.

[Gpsma]

There re no cheapskates in the villages.

Just ask the waitstaff at any restaurant

[JGibson]

Golf isn't free, it's incorporated into the amenities.

[MX rider]

No special skill is required to play 7 days a week. Just need money and an insatiable appetite for frustration.

Lmfao!! So true!

[bioman419]

We're approaching 900 holes in TV......that's growth.

[Topspinmo]

We're approaching 900 holes in TV......that's growth.


But, but , I can’t get tee time at 10 am for my group of of 20.

[Topspinmo]

You've obviously never been to California. I've been on a range there where I was the only white guy. Everyone else was Asian.


Were they female? That would explain why all top women players have dominated LPGA tour for at least last 20 years? :shrug:

[MX rider]

But, but , I can’t get tee time at 10 am for my group of of 20.

Exactly. lol

[Laker14]

But, but , I can’t get tee time at 10 am for my group of of 20.

Exactly. lol

It's just not fair!