Solo Agers (single & no kids)--how are you planning for live in your 80's & beyond?

[DaddyD]

I (along with a sibling) have been caring for my elderly parents (both late 80's) for the past seven years. While both parents are in reasonably good health for their age, neither can live independently, and were it not for us, both would be (at a minimum) in assisted living facility.

Over the past two years both my mother & father have had illnesses / accidents (falls) which resulted in them being hospitalized. My father was in a local hospital for nearly two weeks, and while the treatment / care he received there was adequate, I shudder to think what his experience would have been like had I not been there daily to manage / advocate for his medical care.

I'm in my 50's, single with no children, and while my "elderly years" are still decades away, this experience of helping my parents has really got me wondering how I'm going to manage the last 10-15 years of my life.

Lots of people mention CCRC's (Continuing Care Retirement Communities), but they won't sit with you at doctor's appointments, help you pay bills, manage your finances, etc..

For those of you who are single with no children:

If you are in the last decade or so of life, how are you doing it? Any tips or warnings?

For those of you in your 60's & 70's, what are your plans for when you aren't able to live independently & need help?

[retiredguy123]

In The Villages, I think Freedom Pointe is the best place to go, if you can afford it.

[asianthree]

Not much different than DINK’s (duel income no kids) once a spouse passes on your own. Two of three kids are in that category no kids. Both have a good advisor, and have planned for the what if.

[juneroses]

The article below pertains to your question. Click on the link within it & search by zip for local geriatric-care managers.

Who is your emergency contact? Older adults aging alone must be more prepared. - MarketWatch (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/who-is-your-emergency-contact-older-adults-living-alone-must-be-more-prepared-bdb25a42?gaa_at=g&gaa_n=AZsHK_lwUGEbZML0rOrXxbbPF2IKJuqO8fgU2igHZu2r 172VcNGfhHTevBT6CyFcQ9LfYvh-554VWMr3ItRfZx4ONNgw&gaa_ts=65c61aa9&gaa_sig=v3BTPokf1icVBK2t0oHeo21C34tqlEYd0acyq0FVhr saYjDS7ngBbMN5BoFrVGBmhRX_pG8yPIoHEf6XJWPuVw%3D%3D )

[DaddyD]

In The Villages, I think Freedom Pointe is the best place to go, if you can afford it.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm (hopefully!) a few decades away from needing an independent or assisted living facility, and who knows how much Freedom Pointe will be charging then, and/or what their reputation will be then.

But even if a solo ager were to move into Freedom Pointe (or similar facility) that still only solves half the problem. Sure, the staff there will take care of a person's basic physical needs, but they won't help with paying bills, managing investments, managing health care amongst a variety of doctors, being a health care advocate for the resident, etc..

There are still a ton of problems / issues that need to be managed that fall outside of the services provided by the staff at any independent/assisted living facility or nursing home.

[DaddyD]

Not much different than DINK’s (duel income no kids) once a spouse passes on your own. Two of three kids are in that category no kids. Both have a good advisor, and have planned for the what if.


I'm not certain what you are referring to when you wrote that your kids have seen an advisor and planned for the "what if". If by "what if" you mean if one spouse outlives the other and ends up w/ diminishing mental capabilities and needs help, I'd be interested to know what their advisor and they have planned.

If by "what if" you are referring to death...that's not a "what if", that is a "when". The end game is certain and the same for all of us.

[DaddyD]

Below is a link to an interesting discussion on a finance/investment related forum related to being a solo ager:

CCRC's are out. Tips for "aging in place"? - Bogleheads.org (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418880)

I'm not expecting any magic answers or solutions, but it would be interesting to hear from people who are actually experiencing this now--or planning for it in the not-too-distant future--how they're doing it and/or what their plans are.

I've got some younger cousins who theoretically might help help me out, but that's a HUGE ask, and for me at least, not a great plan.

[Caymus]

In The Villages, I think Freedom Pointe is the best place to go, if you can afford it.

Curious if you know the price range (rough planning for 20 to 30 years in the future:laugh::laugh:

[retiredguy123]

I appreciate the suggestion, but thankfully I'm (hopefully!) a few decades away from needing an independent or assisted living facility, and who knows

But even if a solo ager were to move into Freedom Pointe (or similar facility) that still only solves half the problem. Sure, the staff there will take care of a person's basic physical needs, but they won't help with paying bills, managing investment, managing health care amongst a variety of doctors, being a health care advocate for the resident, etc..

There are still a ton of problems / issues that need to be managed that fall outside of the services provided by the staff at any independent/assisted living facility or nursing home.
A facility like Freedom Pointe will solve a lot of the issues that are impossible to solve living in a single family house in The Villages. If you have health problems, transportation to medical appointments is extremely difficult living in a house. Also, owning a house requires maintenance, utility bills, and other costs. Hopefully, if you move into a facility, you only need to pay one bill, your transportation is provided, and your financial portfolio is pretty much on auto pilot. I cannot imagine trusting a stranger to manage the things you mentioned. I inquired about this when I had a will prepared, and got no recommendations whatsoever. The attorney who prepared my will told me that most professionals, such as lawyers, will not assume power of attorney for these things because of the potential liability. What you really need is a very close friend or relative to assist you. If you don't have one, then I think a facility is the best option, especially living in The Villages.

[retiredguy123]

Curious if you know the price range (rough planning for 20 to 30 years in the future:laugh::laugh:
The current independent living pricing ranges from about $350K to $450K for the initial "condo" purchase (2 bedroom), and about $4,500 per month, which includes meals, utilities, maintenance, transportation, and a life care agreement. To me, this is way better than other independent living options, such as Sumter Senior Living and Watercrest. They charge no entrance fee, but about $6K per month for rent, and no lease or ownership at all. That is totally unacceptable to me.

[MightyDog]

I appreciate the suggestion, but thankfully I'm (hopefully!) a few decades away from needing an independent or assisted living facility, and who knows

But even if a solo ager were to move into Freedom Pointe (or similar facility) that still only solves half the problem. Sure, the staff there will take care of a person's basic physical needs, but they won't help with paying bills, managing investment, managing health care amongst a variety of doctors, being a health care advocate for the resident, etc..

There are still a ton of problems / issues that need to be managed that fall outside of the services provided by the staff at any independent/assisted living facility or nursing home.

DD - I understand exactly what you're asking and the link provided upstring by another commenter seems like a starting point as far as understanding what currently exists in that realm. You are very smart to be thinking about this now while you have time to consider the many variables and put a plan together when not rushed to do so by ill health.

An overall advocate is what you're asking for, like you stated. If a family member or friend (either one, that you trust to be competent and honest!) is not interested then, someone would need to be hired to perform that role(s). It's very tricky b/c once a situation reverts to where they now have legal and/or healthcare POA b/c you're incapacitated -- all bet are off. And that includes with family members.

My life observations are that most people do not handle power well. They either don't understand the responsibility involved and don't perform the role well, or at all, or they get drunk on their assigned power and do what they want - sometimes including lifting money if they think no one will notice.

And nursing facilities? Wow, there is a financial trap if people aren't paying attention. Some of them love to pad the bills in various ways and only a caretaker paying attention and asking questions is going to avoid that. My oldest brother has been a slack caretaker of our Mother and the facility she lived in got away with gouging her out of $45,000+ while sedating the beejezus out of her, like they do the others there. Even family caretakers can be very dialed-out!

It is such a tricky situation because oldsters, particularly self-payers, are basically prey to those who'd like a piece of those assets and families don't seem to understand that. I could go on, probably have enough to write an article - a cautionary tale.

But, I don't have a specific resource to share at this time to assist you. Look at that link, above, and try some online searching using keywords like: elderly advocate, elderly POA for hire, whatever you can think of...each string will produce somewhat different results. ALSO, give a call to a local estate attorney or two and pose your question - they might know of resources. Also, I can't imagine that AARP doesn't have resources to recommend for that.

[La lamy]

Tough topic, but good for you for thinking ahead. I'm hoping to be independent and healthy until the end, otherwise it's fork out the big bucks for at home care I reckon. Renting would also alleviate many extra bills and responsibilities.

[margaretmattson]

Tough topic, but good for you for thinking ahead. I'm hoping to be independent and healthy until the end, otherwise it's fork out the big bucks for at home care I reckon. Renting would also alleviate many extra bills and responsibilities.Each state offers help for seniors. Some much better than others. It will behoove you to investigate what is available BEFORE the time comes. If you must move from Florida, make certain the state you choose to live takes good care of their seniors. (I think most will agree, Florida is among the worst)

My husband and I have each signed a no resusitation if we are placed on machines. We each have a health surrogate we trust will honor this request. We have nursing home insurance that will take care of us during our last three years. We have asked nieces and nephews if they will assume power of attorney if our children cannot or will not. Our home is paid in full and will help finance health care that is needed but not covered. Plan, plan, and plan! Involve family members throughout. Some will be willing to help while others may not. KNOW THIS AND RESPECT their wishes beforehand.

[sharonl7340]

I had to care for my mom who had Alzheimers after my dad died unexpectedly. It taught me some important lessons. 1. Get and keep long-term care insurance (I was in my mid-50s).

2. Make a plan to enter a facility at a specific age if I find myself alone.

3. Protect my assets in advance as every state has a look-back period for Medicaid (which is the one that would pay for long-term care once a person qualifies, not Medicare).

[Djean1981]

I hope to hang in there long enough for the home care robots.

[MandoMan]

I (along with a sibling) have been caring for my elderly parents (both late 80's) for the past seven years. While both parents are in reasonably good health for their age, neither can live independently, and were it not for us, both would be (at a minimum) in assisted living facility.

Over the past two years both my mother & father have had illnesses / accidents (falls) which resulted in them being hospitalized. My father was in a local hospital for nearly two weeks, and while the treatment / care he received there was adequate, I shudder to think what his experience would have been like had I not been there daily to manage / advocate for his medical care.

I'm in my 50's, single with no children, and while my "elderly years" are still decades away, this experience of helping my parents has really got me wondering how I'm going to manage the last 10-15 years of my life.

Lots of people mention CCRC's (Continuing Care Retirement Communities), but they won't sit with you at doctor's appointments, help you pay bills, manage your finances, etc..

For those of you who are single with no children:

If you are in the last decade or so of life, how are you doing it? Any tips or warnings?

For those of you in your 60's & 70's, what are your plans for when you aren't able to live independently & need help?

These are good questions to ask. This is why we need what the novelist Kurt Vonnegut (in one of his short stories) calls Ethical Suicide Parlors: local businesses (they could be run by funeral homes) where you make an appointment, are ushered into a quiet, comfortable room, are given pills or an IV or kool-aid or something, and peacefully slip away. I’d love having that available. I live alone, and I’ll probably die alone in my house.

My dad is 95, and we are good friends, but he lives in Denver. My sister lives with him now and makes sure he eats and takes his pills. He can walk around the house with a stick. He’s healthier than some people. He enjoys part of his life, but he is ready to go and wishes he had gone a few years back. He has a Do Not Resuscitate order. Unless he dies in his sleep, though, that last week or month or year will not be pleasant for him.

Welcome to the Monkey House (short story - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_the_Monkey_House_(short_story))

[Bwanajim]

#1 this have long-term care. I purchased mine when I was in my 50s and it’s 4000 a year and covers everything.

[LuvNH]

This is a real important conversation and I thank the OP for raising it in Disney Land for seniors. It is something none of us want to face until it is too late.

I am a full time caregiver for my husband and I do have children and grandchildren, but I still have to worry about what happens to me when I have done my job with my husband. After living in one of the earlier villages north of 466 and seeing so many of my neighbors needing help, I have done some research and think the best way to go is private nursing care. Most Assisted Living facilities start at $10K a month and you can get some good care starting at $40 an hour. However, in the event that my brain goes I am hoping someone in my family will handle my affairs.

I think this idea is well worth thinking about if you are truly alone in this world. One of my neighbors is a widow, she played golf with a ladies group, three of them sold their smaller homes and purchased a brand new Premium and live together taking care of each other. They did have an elder attorney who set up everything for them.

[retiredguy123]

Buying a large house with friends to share the caregiving is great "IF" it works out. But, if it doesn't, it can be a disaster.

[retiredguy123]

When I lived in Northern Virginia, there were small companies that would buy and manage large single family houses and equip them to allow 4 or 5 people to live in the house. The company would hire professional caregivers to work a 48-hour shift, so that there was always a caregiver living in the house 24/7. The advantage to the caregivers was that they could be paid a fulltime wage and only work 2 days per week. It was an alternative to moving into an assisted living facility. I don't know if it would work in The Villages.

[JMintzer]

#1 this have long-term care. I purchased mine when I was in my 50s and it’s 4000 a year and covers everything.

Yup!

My wife and I purchased policies when in our mid/late 30's. It is no longer offered and our financial advisor insists that we never miss a payment. It's that good of a policy...

Our's is in the mid $2K/per year right now...

[MightyDog]

The comments on this thread are further proof of how important this topic is. No offense to anyone but, the comments are flinging in all sorts of directions only semi-related to what the OP was asking about.

We know there are all kinds of ways to live when elderly - at home with hired care, at home with family or friend care, facilities that are independent living or assisted or nursing, etc. etc.

The OP is interested in figuring-out who would be the person, or people, dedicated to looking out for an aged person and would have the legal and healthcare POAs, which are very serious responsibilities. Even those with a spouse or adult children would be wise to select very carefully who those will be and, by all means, DO NOT give both POAs to the same person.

My Mother did the old-fashioned thing and gave the oldest son (he's also the oldest child) ALL of the legal permissions. That was a bad move for several reasons. Note: for those with tender sensibilites, buckle-up, because I'm going to drop some truth bombs.
-- He's not the brightest and has lived a very sheltered life so, he's naive (that's why the nursing home could get away with price gouging so severely as I stated in Comment #11. And, no, old people don't naturally sleep that much - they're sedating them!)
-- He is a very uncommunicative guy so, the other 3 of us have been left scratching and clawing to get info on our own about her situation. It's patently ridiculous and we also live several states away.
-- IMPORTANT: If family members are unhappy with how the person who has healthcare POA is handling matters and want to change who has that permission - who do they have to consult first to do that? Well, the person who has legal POA. Ooohh, it's the same person! See the problem? How likely will that individual be willing to do that? Not much, is the answer. (People like absolute control, that's why.) So, that means other family members have to hire a lawyer and potentially take that unreasonable individual to court. Not fun and very stressful.

Then, layer-in that the person with both POAs, if an offspring or spouse, is probably also a beneficiary and that can come into play regarding various decisions the POA might make...whether people want to believe that or not, it's reality. Ask estate attorneys, they have all kinds of crazed stories. You don't often hear these stories from friends b/c people are embarrassed at how badly their family handled some of these things. So, many remain in the dark about how tricky these things can be and don't have their own situations set-up very well or realistically.

[Romad]

I hope to hang in there long enough for the home care robots.

That would be funny if it wasn’t true.

[virtualcynthia]

I was having a relaxing Sunday afternoon until I started reading this thread. Now my emotions are going every which way. The financial seems a little easier to plan than the actual human care side. My husband was a driver for Sumter senior living so we have an inside look at what it’s really like. I would never sell my house to buy a space at an assisted-living facility. Sumter senior living was very nice and then management changed and the chef changed and the meals were terrible and the halls were dirty. The only good thing was because it was a rental. The residents could leave at any time. The issue was, where do they go.
We have so many clubs. There should be one called Solo Agers that discusses all these issues.
For now I’m going to stop thinking, have a drink, and watch the Super Bowl.

[retiredguy123]

///

[retiredguy123]

I was having a relaxing Sunday afternoon until I started reading this thread. Now my emotions are going every which way. The financial seems a little easier to plan than the actual human care side. My husband was a driver for Sumter senior living so we have an inside look at what it’s really like. I would never sell my house to buy a space at an assisted-living facility. Sumter senior living was very nice and then management changed and the chef changed and the meals were terrible and the halls were dirty. The only good thing was because it was a rental. The residents could leave at any time. The issue was, where do they go.
We have so many clubs. There should be one called Solo Agers that discusses all these issues.
For now I’m going to stop thinking, have a drink, and watch the Super Bowl.
It's a rental with no lease. Why would you buy furniture for an apartment, pay $6,000 per month, and not even get a 6 or 12 month lease?

[asianthree]

I'm not certain what you are referring to when you wrote that your kids have seen an advisor and planned for the "what if". If by "what if" you mean if one spouse outlives the other and ends up w/ diminishing mental capabilities and needs help, I'd be interested to know what their advisor and they have planned.

If by "what if" you are referring to death...that's not a "what if", that is a "when". The end game is certain and the same for all of us.

Reread the post “dinks once a spouse passes” on your own. Meaning single with no children isn’t any different than Dinks when a spouse passes. Their what if is healthy spouse dies in an accident and remaining spouse has either severe medical issues or terminally ill. That’s where planning takes front and center.

The “what if” is what your financial person plans for, pretty sure everyones needs are nothing compared to what you would need for “What if”.
Financial guys don’t give advice for free, worth a sit down for you.

We have 3 children, with flourishing practices, who all have their own lives. We have plans in place with our advisers, that no child will have to take on any burdens due to diminish health or mental status. In turn none of our children expect us to take care of one of them in a what if event.

[DaddyD]

I hope to hang in there long enough for the home care robots.

I'm not sure if you wrote the above in jest / as a joke, but actually I'm quasi-hopeful that by the time I'm in my 80's (nearly 30 years from now) "Assistant Personal Robots" will actually be a reality.

Is this a fantastical thinking?? Perhaps...but maybe not. We already have self-driving cars, robots are commonly found in factories, etc.. Technological advances don't follow a linear path, but grow by jumps and leaps. 30 years is a long time, it's doubtful that any of us imagined in 1996 the technology we take for granted now.

[DaddyD]

I was having a relaxing Sunday afternoon until I started reading this thread. Now my emotions are going every which way. The financial seems a little easier to plan than the actual human care side.

My husband was a driver for Sumter senior living so we have an inside look at what it’s really like. I would never sell my house to buy a space at an assisted-living facility. Sumter senior living was very nice and then management changed and the chef changed and the meals were terrible and the halls were dirty. The only good thing was because it was a rental. The residents could leave at any time. The issue was, where do they go.

We have so many clubs. There should be one called Solo Agers that discusses all these issues.


I 100% that the financial side is the easy part; assuming you can afford it, you'll always be able to find a place--whether it be independent or assisted living or a nursing home--that will take you. But that's only half the problem.

Anyone who has spent any significant time as a patient in a hospital, rehab facility, or assisted living facility knows first hand that the care & attention you receive when you have friends / family who visit regularly & who advocate for & help manage your care is VASTLY better than the care that elderly patients w/ no one visiting or helping them receive. That's just facts.

YES--there definitely should be a club or organization in The Villages for solo agers! I vote that you start one Cynthia!!

Anyone willing to second my nomination??

[DaddyD]

As MightyDog wrote above, there are only a handful of options available for solo agers in their latter years, and we all know what they are.

If you don't have much money, you'll age in place until you can't any longer, and then at some point some governmental agency will get involved and you'll likely be moved (possibly against your will) to some kind of care facility. If you don't have assets you'll be sent to a facility which accepts medicaid, and the care / quality of life there will likely leave a lot to be desired.

If you've got substantial assets (this probably applies to the majority of Villagers) then you've got options:

You can hire an agency or individual(s) to come to your home and take care of you so you can "age (and die....) in place"

If you've got a long term care policy (good ones are increasingly difficult to find, definitely read the fine print!) or can self-pay, then you can go the CCRC route (CCRC = Continuing Care Retirement Facility), where you start off in an Independent or Assisted Living facility, and the move to a memory facility and/or nursing home as your needs change.

But there is a very important missing element in both options above, namely that you really REALLY need to have someone you trust who is both WILLING and ABLE to help manage your health care & finances.

Paying bills & managing finances is not something that the staff or management at any continuing care facility should, can, or will do for you. And even in the best of facilities, you still need to have someone "watching those" who are watching over you and to help manage your care.

I'm aware that this is a stressful topic for some (myself included!) and that there are no "perfect" solutions. But having a plan is vastly better than "no plan at all"...which really is a plan as well...just not a very good one.

I very well may feel differently 20-30 years from now, but at present I have no desire to live out my last years in a traditional assisted living facility or nursing home. As I wrote in a post above, a small part of me does think that robotic help may be a very real possibility in the not-too-distant future.

Other ideas I have:

I've traveled quite extensively, and other countries & cultures treat the elderly very differently than we do here in the United States & most westernized cultures. The elderly are practically revered in Asian cultures, and generally treated very well in latino/hispanic countries as well. If I do decide to go the Assisted Living / Nursing Home route, since I don't have children or close relatives I can rely one, I may choose to relocate overseas. I would be surprised if one couldn't get a MUCH higher level of care for significantly less money in countries like the Philippines, Malaysia, Mexico, Panama, etc..

I'm "quantity sufficient" in terms of money & own some valuable real estate; assuming I still have considerable assets left whenever it is that I need help, perhaps I can find a local family to "adopt a Grandfather" in exchange for putting them in my will and leaving them my assets when I die?

Join a kibbutz or commune?

Death with dignity? Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but personally I have no problem with someone terminally ill or who is in the last few years of life who decides to end their life on their own terms.

I am very aware that all the plans I've described above real risks. But if a person doesn't have younger friends or family members who they a) TRUST, b) who are WILLING , and c) ABLE to help you, there is no perfect plan--you have to come up with the best "imperfect" plan you can.

Since I don't have children, all I can do is come up with the best plan I can and "hope for the best". But I'm certain that having no plan is the worst plan of all.

My motivation in making this post was hoping that others older than myself who are currently living out this reality would chime in with their thoughts, opinions, and experiences.

[DaddyD]

For anyone interested, below are links to related articles and similar discussions in other forums:

Why I Hope to Die at 75 - The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/)

Solo Ager: who would you trust with your financial POA? - Bogleheads.org (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400442)

Are you a "solo ager?" - Bogleheads.org (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=287750)

Single People and Retirement Question - Bogleheads.org (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241274)

Costs, Pros, & Cons of CCRC - Continuing Care Retirement Communities - Aging in Place. Pitfalls? - Page 2 - Bogleheads.org (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=245300&start=50)

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=397804

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418880

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391680

https://www.bestguide-retirementcommunities.com/cooperativehousing.html

https://www.nextavenue.org/solo-agers-find-a-fiduciary/?fbclid=IwAR0FzDSMEH7iS9JsWtZbE4D0FfQotIdJ0He5mXFu JtAHb_f_UPnubeY3qEM

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/15/751479810/make-new-friends-and-keep-the-old

[CarlR33]

It's a rental with no lease. Why would you buy furniture for an apartment, pay $6,000 per month, and not even get a 6 or 12 month lease?
Because at this point how long will you live on? Like in your younger years, you will not have the luxery of knowing and giving advance notice for lease termination, LOL

[Boomer]

DaddyD, thank you for starting this valuable thread, and thank you for all those links you posted.

I saw in one of your posts that you are still in your 50s. We bought a long term care policy just before we turned 60. May I suggest that you start looking into buying one.

For a long time the premiums did not go up, but now they are accelerating fast. It is aggravating and the company keeps offering us options to lower the amount and timing of the coverage to somewhat lower the premium. But, for now, when the bill comes, we hold our noses and just pay it. It is like they are playing chicken with us…….

Even so, I look at the amount we have paid in for so many years and compare it to what one year in a good facility would cost and our pay-in is not even close, so we will keep on. We also consider it asset protection for each other if one needs extra care. It covers in-home care and assisted living, in addition to skilled care. Including memory care.

I hope you will look carefully at your options for a LTC policy.

I understand exactly what you are saying about the financial part of things. We do not use a financial advisor but I am thinking of turning over part of the responsibility soon just to test the waters and to make things easier. I am trying to prepare for what happens if we cannot do it ourselves anymore.

LTC policies and financial plans are easy compared to the very real concern about who is going to pay the bills. A POA is an incredibly powerful document and should never be taken lightly……

What is really needed in so many situations is to be able to hire someone to take care of paying the regular bills when help is needed. That is where there is a big hole in what we can attempt to do to keep ourselves covered as we age…..

Seems like elder care attorneys could have someone under their umbrella to simply pay regular bills for those who want to hire them without turning over the POA……

What older people need sometimes is simply help with regular bill-paying. Seems like an account could be set up with enough money to cover monthly bills without giving the POA to the hired person who is paying the bills……

The name of the bill-payer on the account would do that, but where is such a trusted person to be found to hire? ‘Hire’ is the operative word there. Even for someone who has a relative or friend to do that, it would sometimes be easier to just hire somebody….

I am surprised there are not more small businesses, perhaps through accountants, to do that. It basically boils down to needing an honest bookkeeper. (I know an accountant who does this for a few people, but she is ready to retire and is long past retirement age herself.)

Anyway, enough from me this morning. (I am avoiding working on getting tax stuff together, so I end up hanging out on TOTV.)

Please carry on. This is an excellent thread.

Boomer

[Velvet]

I agree that this is a very important topic given how many seniors we have who are really alone. Even if they have family. One of the problems I have seen with managing an incapacitated person’s finances is the conflict of interest in having a person benefit in your Will and giving the same person power of attorney both over your health and your finances. If they spend the money on you for any reason, it lessens their inheritance. You can be worth more dead than alive. The sooner the better.

One thought I had was having two people responsible for POA one gets compensated and does the work, the other one gets reported to say once a month. One of the people can be perhaps a social worker. The other a family member. Possible problem family member fires social worker.

We are still left with who will be your hospital advocate? The problem I see is the need for good will from family, from friends etc - I can’t see a person easily paying for that when they no longer have the ability because they are incapacitated. I suppose it is left to shopping (like at Amazon or for medical services). You need a geriatric management group which has great reviews by past families in order to trust them. Because isn’t that what it comes down to? Who can you trust when you are helpless and most vulnerable?

[retiredguy123]

I agree that this is a very important topic given how many seniors we have who are really alone. Even if they have family. One of the problems I have seen with managing an incapacitated person’s finances is the conflict of interest in having a person benefit in your Will and giving the same person power of attorney both over your health and your finances. If they spend the money on you for any reason, it lessens their inheritance. You can be worth more dead than alive. The sooner the better.

One thought I had was having two people responsible for POA one gets compensated and does the work, the other one gets reported to say once a month. One of the people can be perhaps a social worker. The other a family member. Possible problem family member fires social worker.

We are still left with who will be your hospital advocate? The problem I see is the need for good will from family, from friends etc - I can’t see a person easily paying for that when they no longer have the ability because they are incapacitated. I suppose it is left to shopping (like at Amazon or for medical services). You need a geriatric management group which has great reviews by past families in order to trust them. Because isn’t that what it comes down to? Who can you trust when you are helpless and most vulnerable?
There is no way that I would ever allow a social worker to have my power of attorney.

[Decadeofdave]

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

[Boomer]

And now I am going to add something else to worry about. I know 3 people who have been scammed.

One was a lot older but still seemed on top of things to everyone who knew her. But she had been sending money to a scammer to the tune of over 30,000 bucks. The bank caught it and got her to involve her daughter who had no idea. She thought her mom was doing fine.

The other two did not lose as much, but both of them are highly intelligent people, very involved with family and friends, and yet the scammers got them. Neither of them can believe they actually let it happen. I am glad they talked about it though because even though embarrassed, they gave the rest of us a good warning.

For one, a spouse caught it, and the other one caught herself. That one happened when she got aggravated trying to communicate with a robot online to solve a problem with an order or subscription or billing or whatever…..

She then stopped the pointless conversation with the robot and looked for a phone number, finally finding one online that looked perfectly legitimate. (insert the theme song from Dragnet here)

Anyway, the professional sounding scammer answering the bogus number played his helpful role quite well and got account numbers. It was a mess but she got it straightened out…..

Who knew that there were evil characters out there with bogus phone numbers and websites just waiting for us to call them.

I saw a speaker once who worked on fraud cases, and he said that highly intelligent people make up a surprising percentage of people who have been scammed. (One was a doctor who scammers got for over a hundred-thousand dollars.)

So there’s that.

Boomer

[retiredguy123]

Because at this point how long will you live on? Like in your younger years, you will not have the luxery of knowing and giving advance notice for lease termination, LOL
They should at least furnish the apartment. Who is going to buy furniture and hire a mover when they can raise the rent or evict you within 30 days?

[CarlR33]

They should at least furnish the apartment. Who is going to buy furniture and hire a mover when they can raise the rent or evict you within 30 days?
You do not have much furniture left when you get to the one or possibly two room care home and since the places are very small your down to a couple recliners, end tables and beds at that point (and those hospital beds probable belong to the home). Most of this furniture your heirs will not want so it goes to the trash. Ask me how I know, LOL

[retiredguy123]

You do not have much furniture left when you get to the one or possibly two room care home and since the places are very small your down to a couple recliners, end tables and beds at that point (and those hospital beds probable belong to the home). Most of this furniture your heirs will not want so it goes to the trash. Ask me how I know, LOL
It sounds like you are referring to assisted living. A month-to-month rental is typical for that type of facility. But, the independent living facilities, which do not offer any health care, at Sumter Senior Living and Watercrest, require that you furnish your own apartment and provide no lease agreement. The monthly rent is about $6,000 per month plus an entrance fee, with no guaranteed rental fee for the second month and beyond.

[LuvNH]

I am surprised there are not more small businesses, perhaps through accountants, to do that. It basically boils down to needing an honest bookkeeper. (I know an accountant who does this for a few people, but she is ready to retire and is long past retirement age herself.)

One para stood out to me Boomer. This one above. I believe our litigious society would inhibit almost anyone from taking on that responsibility. A law suit of this nature could wipe you out.

[margaretmattson]

As MightyDog wrote above, there are only a handful of options available for solo agers in their latter years, and we all know what they are.

If you don't have much money, you'll age in place until you can't any longer, and then at some point some governmental agency will get involved and you'll likely be moved (possibly against your will) to some kind of care facility. If you don't have assets you'll be sent to a facility which accepts medicaid, and the care / quality of life there will likely leave a lot to be desired.

If you've got substantial assets (this probably applies to the majority of Villagers) then you've got options:

You can hire an agency or individual(s) to come to your home and take care of you so you can "age (and die....) in place"

If you've got a long term care policy (good ones are increasingly difficult to find, definitely read the fine print!) or can self-pay, then you can go the CCRC route (CCRC = Continuing Care Retirement Facility), where you start off in an Independent or Assisted Living facility, and the move to a memory facility and/or nursing home as your needs change.

But there is a very important missing element in both options above, namely that you really REALLY need to have someone you trust who is both WILLING and ABLE to help manage your health care & finances.

Paying bills & managing finances is not something that the staff or management at any continuing care facility should, can, or will do for you. And even in the best of facilities, you still need to have someone "watching those" who are watching over you and to help manage your care.

I'm aware that this is a stressful topic for some (myself included!) and that there are no "perfect" solutions. But having a plan is vastly better than "no plan at all"...which really is a plan as well...just not a very good one.

I very well may feel differently 20-30 years from now, but at present I have no desire to live out my last years in a traditional assisted living facility or nursing home. As I wrote in a post above, a small part of me does think that robotic help may be a very real possibility in the not-too-distant future.

Other ideas I have:

I've traveled quite extensively, and other countries & cultures treat the elderly very differently than we do here in the United States & most westernized cultures. The elderly are practically revered in Asian cultures, and generally treated very well in latino/hispanic countries as well. If I do decide to go the Assisted Living / Nursing Home route, since I don't have children or close relatives I can rely one, I may choose to relocate overseas. I would be surprised if one couldn't get a MUCH higher level of care for significantly less money in countries like the Philippines, Malaysia, Mexico, Panama, etc..

I'm "quantity sufficient" in terms of money & own some valuable real estate; assuming I still have considerable assets left whenever it is that I need help, perhaps I can find a local family to "adopt a Grandfather" in exchange for putting them in my will and leaving them my assets when I die?

Join a kibbutz or commune?

Death with dignity? Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but personally I have no problem with someone terminally ill or who is in the last few years of life who decides to end their life on their own terms.

I am very aware that all the plans I've described above real risks. But if a person doesn't have younger friends or family members who they a) TRUST, b) who are WILLING , and c) ABLE to help you, there is no perfect plan--you have to come up with the best "imperfect" plan you can.

Since I don't have children, all I can do is come up with the best plan I can and "hope for the best". But I'm certain that having no plan is the worst plan of all.

My motivation in making this post was hoping that others older than myself who are currently living out this reality would chime in with their thoughts, opinions, and experiences.Before looking "overseas", look at programs each STATE offers for seniors. We plan to move to Pennsylvania because it provides seniors with everything we would want. Florida is one of the WORST states to age.

[AMB444]

Before looking "overseas", look at programs each STATE offers for seniors. We plan to move to Pennsylvania because it provides seniors with everything we would want. Florida is one of the WORST states to age.

Thanks for your comment. Can you give links/ideas on how to research this? I'm very new to some of this information.

Thank you!

[retiredguy123]

I am surprised there are not more small businesses, perhaps through accountants, to do that. It basically boils down to needing an honest bookkeeper. (I know an accountant who does this for a few people, but she is ready to retire and is long past retirement age herself.)

One para stood out to me Boomer. This one above. I believe our litigious society would inhibit almost anyone from taking on that responsibility. A law suit of this nature could wipe you out.
That is what my estate attorney, who prepared my will, told me. She had zero recommendations for someone to manage finances and bill paying for an elderly person. The potential liability was so much of a risk that no reputable professional would do it. Of course, you could probably find a scammer to do it.

[MightyDog]

I am surprised there are not more small businesses, perhaps through accountants, to do that. It basically boils down to needing an honest bookkeeper. (I know an accountant who does this for a few people, but she is ready to retire and is long past retirement age herself.)

One para stood out to me Boomer. This one above. I believe our litigious society would inhibit almost anyone from taking on that responsibility. A law suit of this nature could wipe you out.
No, no...it's totally doable.
1) The first line for preventing any problems or discrepancies is to conduct the affairs legitimately of the people who are paying you to handle things for them. If so, then, what lawsuit? What's there to sue about?
2) Set yourself up in a LLC (Limited Liability Company), if permitted in the state where services would be rendered for that kind of work.
3) You create a contract with the people you're working for that defines the parameters and limitations of the scope of work being performed. Add an oversight aspect to it....like a family member or attorney who has to get a monthly accounting and description of work performed, etc.

I could do that kind of work and , likely, be pretty good at it. But, I'm already quite busy and probably wouldn't have the patience. That's my Achilles heel. :duck:

[retiredguy123]

Before looking "overseas", look at programs each STATE offers for seniors. We plan to move to Pennsylvania because it provides seniors with everything we would want. Florida is one of the WORST states to age.
Are there state programs available to all seniors or just those with low incomes?

[Boomer]

I am surprised there are not more small businesses, perhaps through accountants, to do that. It basically boils down to needing an honest bookkeeper. (I know an accountant who does this for a few people, but she is ready to retire and is long past retirement age herself.)

One para stood out to me Boomer. This one above. I believe our litigious society would inhibit almost anyone from taking on that responsibility. A law suit of this nature could wipe you out.


That is what my estate attorney, who prepared my will, told me. She had zero recommendations for someone to manage finances and bill paying for an elderly person. The potential liability was so much of a risk that no reputable professional would do it. Of course, you could probably find a scammer to do it.


Re. Your comments on my post: I completely understand the concern you are sharing. But I do think something like this could/should be available.

Of course, it should not be someone hired willy-nilly. It would have to be under a professional, reputable business or law practice, which could protect both sides.

I was telling Mr. Boomer about this thread, and he told me that a couple we knew well, who have since died, had bill paying done by their eldercare attorney’s office. The particular attorney worked for them at one of the best CCRCs in the city. That is where they lived. It was not in Florida though. Both the CCRC and the attorney have excellent reputations.

Aging parents sometimes put a responsible heir’s name on just a checking account to keep up with the bills, so why couldn’t that be done through an attorney or accounting office. It could be set up where the person doing the bookkeeping would not need access to the POA or to all the money which would limit exposure to liability. . .I guess. :)

This could work best by starting it before you really need it, so you could be your own watchdog.

But, like I said, this would not be someone to hire willy-nilly, even without the POA.

Boomer

PS: And, of course, retiredguy123, no scammers allowed. But I know what you mean. It could be open-season if it fell into the wrong hands.

[Randall55]

Are there state programs available to all seniors or just those with low incomes?We are not low income. We researched what was available in a few states and chose Pennsylvania, as do many of our friends in the Villages. A few years back, my 98-year-old aunt (PA resident) needed to go to assisted living. The care she received was remarkable. When she died, one year later, her heirs inherited quite a chunk of money which was her final wish. The nursing home did not rip her off nor did they request the heirs to pay exorbitant bills. They asked them to remove her belongings, each accounted for even an expensive diamond ring, and nothing more.

Our relatives and friends glow because of the care their family members are receiving there.They are thrilled their loved ones are treated with kindness and compassion. Not one of them was burdened by large medical bills when the loved one passed.

Do some research BEFORE it is time. I believe you will find quality care somewhere in the USA. Unfortunately, that place is NOT FLORIDA. In Pennsylvania, lottery funds go to the aged. The state uses those funds, wisely. In Florida, the funds are used for schools. Not much help to us. Our neighbors told us Ohio and Michigan offer great programs for seniors, as well. Yes, we talk openly about these issues. Sometimes, during our "HILARIOUS" two o'clock driveway parties. :)

It's great to have a network of friends who care.

[LuvNH]

Thanks for your comment. Can you give links/ideas on how to research this? I'm very new to some of this information.

Thank you!

Start with this caring.com and then search for anything about senior retirement living, best places to retire, etc. etc. I like the caring.com because it gives you information such as transportation, hospitals, cost of home care and nursing homes etc. etc.

[PersonOfInterest]

That is what my estate attorney, who prepared my will, told me. She had zero recommendations for someone to manage finances and bill paying for an elderly person. The potential liability was so much of a risk that no reputable professional would do it. Of course, you could probably find a scammer to do it.

Hiring an accountant / bookkeeper to handle bill paying should not be that difficult. Accounting / Bookkeeping firms regularly handle Accounts Payable for small businesses without issue. There is really no liability issue with this situation. It is a business arrangement just like that between the Accounting firm and a business contracting for that service. There are different levels of control to which the service can be tailored. There should be many CPA or Enrolled Agent firms as well as bookkeeping service firms who would be available to provide this service.

[retiredguy123]

Hiring an accountant / bookkeeper to handle bill paying should not be that difficult. Accounting / Bookkeeping firms regularly handle Accounts Payable for small businesses without issue. There is really no liability issue with this situation. It is a business arrangement just like that between the Accounting firm and a business contracting for that service. There are different levels of control to which the service can be tailored. There should be many CPA or Enrolled Agent firms as well as bookkeeping service firms who would be available to provide this service.
The issue of liability is if the bookkeeper or CPA is managing a person's money who is mentally incapacitated. They need to make financial decisions that could be challenged by family members, a court, or another entity. That is why it is important to simplify your finances as much as possible before you become incapacitated. I asked several attorneys if they provided this service, and every one said no, and that they could not recommend anyone.

[Caymus]

The issue of liability is if the bookkeeper or CPA is managing a person's money who is mentally incapacitated. They need to make financial decisions that could be challenged by family members, a court, or another entity. That is why it is important to simplify your finances as much as possible before you become incapacitated. I asked several attorneys if they provided this service, and every one said no, and that they could not recommend anyone.

At least on the money management side isn't this one of the (few) times that annuities are a good option?

[Boomer]

Realistically speaking, TV might not be the best place to age in place. I think Freedom Pointe is still the only CCRC in the area. The lack of CCRCs limits choice and the ratio of aging people to facilities could become an issue.

If looking ahead to the need for more care, the Medicare site now gives a lot of detail at medicare.gov — When using the site, you have to look under nursing homes because there is no category for CCRCs, but it does tell you in the details given.

I have a friend living in an area of SC which is rather rural. He moved there from his northern state years ago because he wanted warm weather. He now is finding as he ages that the place he has called home since he was in his 60s is not an easy place to be should he need extra help or care. He is now pushing 80.

He came to Florida to visit a place called Shell Point which is in Ft. Myers. He liked it but has not done anything about it.

I have no personal knowledge of Shell Point. I do know it is a CCRC and a non-profit. Their website is detailed and impressive. Their nursing home section is rated on the Medicare site under Larsen Health Center. They use the term Lifecare in their marketing copy and it looks like they’ve got it all covered.

Another friend of mine who is in her 60s and in good health sold her house after she was widowed and moved into the independent living part of a non-profit CCRC in Ohio. She has a villa with a garage, very nice. The way those things work is that it costs you an upfront fee to get in and there is a monthly fee that can go up, but once your finances are looked at and you are considered to be solvent enough for their actuaries, your future is in place. She said she decided to move to a CCRC sooner rather than later because it feels like she now has a long term care policy — sort of.

Some CCRCs will refund a part of the entry fee under certain circumstances.

As I understand it, a for-profit can kick you out if you run out of money, but the non-profits do not come with that kind of risk — once they know you are in good financial shape before they take you in. Even if it is a 501(c)(3), you need to find out how solid they are, including their endowment. Some of the more established 501(c)(3)s have significant endowments. Also, learn about how their skilled nursing part is doing. It can be better if their employees are their own and not all agency. Check the turnover.

The point of my dissertation this morning is that maybe Shell Point, a CCRC in Ft. Myers, is worth researching, at least on their detailed website, and then could be worth a road trip to check it out.

Boomer

[PersonOfInterest]

The issue of liability is if the bookkeeper or CPA is managing a person's money who is mentally incapacitated. They need to make financial decisions that could be challenged by family members, a court, or another entity. That is why it is important to simplify your finances as much as possible before you become incapacitated. I asked several attorneys if they provided this service, and every one said no, and that they could not recommend anyone.

There should be no financial decisions by the bookkeeper / accountant. It is simply a bill paying service. If the person was or becomes mentally incapacitated then someone else should be stepping in to make decisions which would include management of the contract for the bill paying service.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Not much different than DINK’s (duel income no kids) once a spouse passes on your own. Two of three kids are in that category no kids. Both have a good advisor, and have planned for the what if.

The question I believe was "what ARE those plans?"

If you're mostly independent, but need a little help with housecleaning, cooking, maybe you can't drive anymore but can walk with a cane or walker and can dress yourself and do your bathroom stuff without help - what are the plans?

If you're living on social security - what are your plans? What do you do? How do you do it? Or who does it for you?

[Slainte]

Do a Financial & Medical Power of Attorney; put Pay on Death designees on your bank acts; do a Transfer on Death/beneficiary listing on investments; check annually that correct beneficiaries are listed for ins., Pensions, IRAs,; do an enhanced Lady Bird deed on your real estate, and if you are not comfortable with your agent/s on POAs, then do a Trust for your personal care & fund it & name a Trust Associate who will check Trustee’s decisions.
All docs can be amended to change chosen Agents/Trustees as you progress.
Or, take life as it occurs.
There’s always surprises, no matter how much you plan.
Good friends are often wiser, know your needs better, and are less greedy than relatives.

[patfla06]

In The Villages, I think Freedom Pointe is the best place to go, if you can afford it.

Beautiful place but $$$$$.

[Boomer]

Anyone reading this thread who is interested in knowing the details about what is available for care in the area might want to spend some time navigating the Medicare.gov site. That site gives a relatively in-depth report of the current state of things. (I posted about how to use this tool in post #53 in the second paragraph.)

The Medicare site rates only the healthcare part of the facilities, but it gives some overall details if the nursing part is part of a CCRC. For instance, Freedom Pointe is a for-profit LLC not a non-profit like some CCRCs are.

The reports, of course, can change from inspection to inspection, but by looking into what you could need before you need it, you will at least begin to know more, in case the time comes.

Boomer

[LLJorgs]

We scheduled an appointment with Pittman Law office (they also have a website with lots of educational info and videos). Our attorney Audra Platt was great and talked through lots of scenarios and options with us and put a trust plan in place to meet our needs. We then scheduled an appointment with Sabal Trust Company who were also great and talked through many scenarios and how their services can help manage many situations that concerned us also. Putting a plan in place had upfront costs, took time and work to complete but it was well worth it to have the peace of mind for the future. It ensures we have people in place to assist as we age and also handle the executor responsibilities when the time comes. You’ll still need to name someone as your healthcare surrogate to manage those decisions when needed, but that ask becomes a little easier when the other big items are taken care of by professionals. Hope this helps give a place to start.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If I'm the survivor of my husband, sister, and self, I plan on hiring someone to take care of me for as long as the money holds out. When I run out, the state can put me in a home, put me on drugs so I'm oblivious for however much longer I live, and then cremate me and toss my ashes in the trash.

As long as they can make it so I'm not aware of my miserable surroundings if I get that bad off with no family to care on my behalf, I don't care.

[Shipping up to Boston]

I (along with a sibling) have been caring for my elderly parents (both late 80's) for the past seven years. While both parents are in reasonably good health for their age, neither can live independently, and were it not for us, both would be (at a minimum) in assisted living facility.

Over the past two years both my mother & father have had illnesses / accidents (falls) which resulted in them being hospitalized. My father was in a local hospital for nearly two weeks, and while the treatment / care he received there was adequate, I shudder to think what his experience would have been like had I not been there daily to manage / advocate for his medical care.

I'm in my 50's, single with no children, and while my "elderly years" are still decades away, this experience of helping my parents has really got me wondering how I'm going to manage the last 10-15 years of my life.

Lots of people mention CCRC's (Continuing Care Retirement Communities), but they won't sit with you at doctor's appointments, help you pay bills, manage your finances, etc..

For those of you who are single with no children:

If you are in the last decade or so of life, how are you doing it? Any tips or warnings?

For those of you in your 60's & 70's, what are your plans for when you aren't able to live independently & need help?

Admirable that you and your sibling have stepped up on behalf of your parents. That’s dignity for them.
All I can offer since we’re in the same demo is make sure you draft your living will, estate etc and file it at probate. Everybody’s situation is different but should you ever become incapacitated, since you stated you have no spouse/children, you want to make sure your wishes are documented, respected and followed.